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New York - The Money Laundering Disgrace |
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Last updated on: Jul 27, 2009 at 04:18 PM
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Feds outside of home in Deal, NJ of Rabbi Jacob KessinPhoto Credit: Andrew Mills the star ledger
The news hit fast and hard: rabbis and politicians in New Jersey allegedly involved in a huge money-laundering scam. As if Madoff wasn't enough of an embarrassment for the Jewish community, now this. Such activities are completely forbidden by Torah law and must be condemned in the strongest unequivocal terms.
But besides the legal issues, this is a classic case of what the Talmud calls Chillul Hashem – a desecration of God's Name. People look at these rabbis being carted off to jail and say, "If this is what Torah observance brings a person to, then I don't want any part of it." This is a dark day for the Jews, indeed.
We live in America and the law of the land states that one is innocent until proven guilty. Let us not assume guilt. But, if in the unfortunate event that the news turns out to be true and some of these people are proven guilty, many will ask: How can this be?
Not to sound callous, jaded, crude or insensitive, but the answer to me is that such a situation is not so difficult to imagine. It's all a function of greed and jealousy. In fact, maybe we should ask the question differently: How come it's such a rarity? Why doesn't this happen more often?
We live in a very materialistic society, comprised of have and have-nots. No matter what a person has in our day and age, it is literally impossible for someone to "have it all." Coupled with the most dazzling ads that Madison Avenue inundates us with daily, everyone is trained from early childhood to see themselves as "have-nots." I don't have this, that and the other thing. This creates an environment of lack and dependency on things.
Keeping Up
Years ago I spent a few weeks with my family living in the most modest bungalow that you can imagine in the Catskills. A virtual tenement. We loved it. I asked the senior rabbi, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, how can it be that we love the bungalow, but we find so many faults with our house that is 100 times more valuable and furnished?
In reality, a run-down shack is enough.
"It's simple," he said. "If it weren't for the neighbors, everyone would be happy with what they have. Here in the mountains, everyone is living in run-down shacks and there's nothing better to compare it to -- yet it's enough, because in reality it is enough. But at home there are many different houses on the block, some are nicer and have bigger backyards, and as we compare ours with the others, we tell ourselves that what we have is not enough. That's how people make themselves miserable."
I believe that Rabbi Feinstein is right. We all have more than enough to live. But we tell ourselves that it's not enough. We want more, like the Jones' or the Schwartz's.
Jealousy and greed are not new emotions and won't disappear that easily. No one is impervious to such feelings. It is particularly upsetting, however, when found amongst observant Jews who are supposed to hold themselves to higher standards and the material aspects of life are supposed to be less important, less valued. Well, they are. I have lived in several cities and countries and have observed firsthand that observant communities are by and large less materialistic. But it's far from perfect.
Living Without
What's the message? What should we teach our kids as a result of today's news? We should teach them that God gives everyone exactly what s/he needs to live a happy and healthy life. When you see someone possessing something that you don't, you should feel happy for them but not sad for yourself. This is a sign of spiritual maturity that God demands of us. Everyone's situation is tailor-made by The Designer to grant us the ultimate happiness in life -- and no amount of money or goods can enhance that happiness. Happiness is an appreciation of what you have, not the quantity of how much you have.
We should teach our children (and ourselves) to learn to live without certain things, even if they say, "Everyone has one," or "I want it badly," or "People will laugh at me if I don't have my own cell phone," etc. Learning to live without things is a form of spiritual push-ups. They do the job.
There is a struggle at all times between the physical and spiritual worlds, and when one succumbs to his physical desires, he is ipso facto losing his standing in the spiritual realm. These tests come our way to help us grow. By avoiding these temptations, we are growing and meeting life's challenges. That's what we're here for.
The Nine Days
In the New Jersey case, the rabbis were arrested during the period on the Jewish calendar called the "Nine Days" leading up to Tisha B'Av. This is the time of year when we most intensely mourn the loss of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg, of blessed memory, explains that not having the Temple today means we have lost a huge degree of spiritual clarity. This void has propelled us further toward materialism, creating an imbalance in our understanding of what makes a healthy human being and a vibrant Jew.
Without the Temple, selfishness becomes ingrained in the very fabric of our existence.
Specifically, the loss of this spiritual sensitivity means a lower degree of interconnectivity and oneness. We live instead with a drive toward competition against others -- the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest. As such, selfishness becomes ingrained in the very fabric of our existence. Instead of realizing that the purpose of our relationships is to be giving and concerned for others, we want to know "what's in it for me."
Without the Holy Temple, we have lost the clarity of how high humanity can reach. We are in a state of darkness, unable to bring forth the full light. What is the solution to this dilemma? Through mourning the loss of the Temple and appreciating how it has impacted us, that will put us on the road back to a future where there will be no more Madoffs and money-laundering schemes.
Rabbi Yitz Greenman is the Executive Director of Aish.com NY
**UPDATE** Monday July 27 2009 4:18 PM
Editors Note: Rabbi Greenamn reached out to VIN News with the following message,
1 - This article was written in response to telephone calls that I received from non observant friends and family who can not believe what they are seeing on the news. They have asked for my perspective. It was written as damage control.
2 - In no place in the article did I impugn guilt on anyone, let alone the Rabbis. I clearly stated that we should not assume guilt. That being said, there have been far too many cases in the news in the recent past about observant Jews breaking the law - some of whom have plead guilty to the charges against them. One is too many, and if you scan the news there have unfortunately been many more than one (don't waste your time searching as it's too depressing). The point of my article is to understand how can a person who believes in Hashem and His Torah come to break laws [rabbi or non rabbi, that's not the point]. Two of the main causes appear to be greed and jealousy. Yes, there are other causes and no this does not apply to everyone in this case, but in our goldener medina it appears to be at the root of many cases.
3 - Whereas the timing of this article may be upsetting to some because of its close proximity to the arrests, my post was made on www.aish.com [not this website] in response to requests from a) our students who are looking for a perspective right now and b) the editors of aish.com who have also been receiving requests for a perspective on this very current situation.
4 - Irrespective of whether those in the recent case are found guilty or not, it is most important that the point be made, loudly and clearly, that the Torah does not condone stealing, laundering, evading taxes, etc.
May Hashem heal the wounds of His people and may we all merit to see binyan Beis HaMikdash b'mheira b'yameinu
Yitz Greenman
More of today's headlines
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Washington - Hillary Clinton To Iran: No Nukes Ever
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Total105
Read Comments (105) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:12 PM Big Masmid Says:
take a moment and think about it: we are literally spoiled, we expect to much.
3
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:
Sorry but I disagree. There are some very objective means of determining if one does not have enough and to ask someone who does not have enough to be satisfied with their misrable lot is plain achzarius. These alleged crooks who if they are found guilty did not do it because they were jealous of other people, they did it because they are crooks. Meanwhile there are many people in our community who are suffering from rea,l objective, economic deprivation due to job loss,underemployment or the like. Translation - they do not make enough money to support their families. The problem is not that we need to ask people to cope with less. What we need to do is exponentially increase our tzedaka to help lift up our fellow yidden so they can live a normal life and stop focusing on how people can live with less because that will not solve the problem in the majority of cases. I don't believe uprooting everybody in the city and putting them in shanties in the Catskills is the solution to the real economic problems facing the frum communiuty today.
4
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:18 PM Anonymous Says:
what a nice muser drasha but i think one should be a little more sympathetic to others when klal yisroel is suffering such a blow
5
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:36 PM dreck-dweck Says:
“ what a nice muser drasha but i think one should be a little more sympathetic to others when klal yisroel is suffering such a blow ”
Imho what dweck did-by denouncing his own jewish brothers, increases the chilul hashem a million fold. The FBI must laugh behind dwecks back....how for his own skin he will bring down his own brothers rabbis etc.
Rosenbaum alledgedly is a bad guy but kassin and ben haim? Cme on. Don't even compare those 2
Dweck-gei in the erd arain
6
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:34 PM mark Says:
What a disgrace to be buzy complaing on fellow yiden in the 9 days did u forget that u r not gulity till proven so .
Why not be buzy how one musar like dreck can do something like this to people who taught they r helping him out stop talking about this inconet people .....
8
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:33 PM Anonymous Says:
Its not big secret and does not take an in depth analysis to determine how this could happen. The answer is easy. Frumme yidden like Dweck
and the five dreke rabbonim and other yidden have become as greedy and lacking in modos as the rest of society. We were once "a light to the world" and now we are no better than the goyim. We have to do teshuvah, return to hashem and stop trying to find the "easy buck" and live a goiyeshe lifestyle.
9
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:32 PM vestin Says:
These weren't "money-laundering schemes", these were cases where a moiser, went to search out people and used his name and his family name, to ask people to please do him a favor and cash a check. They were trying to help him out, far from a "money-laundering scheme". If all these "money-laundering schemes" together did a total of $3 million dollars of business in 3 years, they're pretty bad at the business, and thats not a "scheme". Which just shows it wasnt a "money-laundering scheme", they were trying to help someone out, they didnt go to him, he searched them out.
10
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:39 PM Anonymous Says:
not every organization that makes money is stealing.
11
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:38 PM cheim david Says:
what a true lesson
12
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:41 PM emes Says:
nice speech if you give me $90.000 and i give you a$100.000 check and you pocket $10.000 would you turn it down alot people dont think when you are in their shoes give me the answer
13
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:54 PM Flatbush Baal Habuus Says:
“ nice speech if you give me $90.000 and i give you a$100.000 check and you pocket $10.000 would you turn it down alot people dont think when you are in their shoes give me the answer ”
It's a big chutzpah to accuse the Rabanim of wrong doing with out knowing the whole story. This is the old classic case of Sinas Am Ha'aretz for a talmid chacham. The lesson to learnt is that if you are a Moiser then Klal Yisroel will spit at you and no one will ever want to associate themselves with you
15
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:48 PM wreck-shmeck-dweck-dreck Says:
“ what a true lesson ”
How in heavens name would anybody be dealing with a crook? Even if fish-kassin-ben haim are innocent, but where the brain? You should stay away million miles away from a crook!!!
My guess is dweck will give up his yarmulke divorce his wife and live like the goveror of NJ (mcgreedy) or the one from carolina...
17
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:46 PM MDshweks Says:
I thing the vast majority of people are just trying to stay above water. The gov. getting bigger and bigger, and even bigger, has made it impossible for a Torah Jew to send his kids to school, Yeshiva, while supporting to public schools and paying off for other people's houses etc. at the same time. Of course everyone should stay away from illeagal activities, but in retrospect, we must realize we are living under a system that does not care a bit about the regular guy, especially not the Jew, taking away %40 to %60 of income!
And if Obama's health care plan get inacted, you'll have people bribing gov. officials to get pushed up for an MRI...
18
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:01 PM eli Says:
“ nice speech if you give me $90.000 and i give you a$100.000 check and you pocket $10.000 would you turn it down alot people dont think when you are in their shoes give me the answer ”
I would absolutely and unequivocally turn it down. That's how I and I hope many other of our bretheren was raised. If you fully believe that is Hashem who provides for all of our needs, then you won't be tempted to take ill-gotten money. Do you think you can cheat G-d?
This article makes excellent points and the author should be commended. We all need to take this to heart.
19
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:
I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply.
20
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:01 PM Traveler Says:
A story is told of the visitor who, stopping by the home of the great Chassidic master Rabbi DovBer of Mezheritch (d. 1772), was outraged by the poverty he encountered there. Rabbi DovBer's home was bare of all furnishing, save for an assortment of rough wooden planks and blocks that served as benches for his students during the day and as beds for his family at night. "How can you live like this?" demanded the visitor. "I myself am far from wealthy, but at least in my home you will find, thank G-d, the basic necessities: some chairs, a table, beds..."
"Indeed?" said Rabbi DovBer. "But I don't see any of your furnishings. How do you manage without them?"
"What do you mean? Do you think that I schlep all my possessions along with me wherever I go? When I travel, I make do with what's available. But at home -- a person's home is a different matter altogether!"
"Ah, yes," said Rabbi DovBer. "At home, it is a different matter altogether..."
21
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:01 PM Hashem Yrachem Oleinu Says:
Interesting that you mention the 9 days of Av - the culmination of what's known as ben-hametzarim. Apparently, we have a modern day story of Kamtza-bar-Kamtza (Talmud Gittin). Although we may never know for sure what possessed S. Dwek to shamefully bring down the whole deck, many who "claim" to know him & the situation say he felt betrayed and shunned after his arrest by the very charitable orgs. that he generously benefited. This is one - if not of the main - lessons on how careful we have to be regarding kofuy tov even after discovering the ill-gotten gains of a benefactor.
22
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:00 PM m.b. Says:
mi somcho who appointed you to give mussar to people who my be erlicer,better ,& much more giving than many others who might have broken"the hilige american law" yes we are in golus & have to avoid such negative spotlighting but if you saw the fbi clipping on the arrests, the condesending attitute toward people that according to us law are innocent until proven otherwise & are entrapment victims of a drek
every understands this is strictly political & yes anti -semitism dept of justice style if dina demalchosa was once applicable that news conference ended it once & for all we must do what we can to help not only our fellows jews but all the entraped victims &do the utmost to dismantle a justice system based on politics ,ego, blind ambition,vandetta etc
23
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:58 PM Leshem shamayim Says:
Are you calling Rabbi Kessin a crook? Is he
greedy? Did he do it to keep up with the jones's? One answer: IDIOT......
This is a typical case of the FBI taking advantage of Rachmanim benei Rachmanim -- blatant anti semitism
24
Jul 26, 2009 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ nice speech if you give me $90.000 and i give you a$100.000 check and you pocket $10.000 would you turn it down alot people dont think when you are in their shoes give me the answer ”
What's your point? So now we have no crimes because you think others are no better. Please.
25
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:08 PM misterzee Says:
dweck approached hundreds of people ,must threw him to the dogs were he belongs.have u noticed the lack of any syrian busnismen indicted?they had the sense to avoid him
i do not know the rabanim involved but i do know that we are required to be dan l'kaf zechuthi also know that even if found guilty that means nothing.oj simpson was found innocent,does any o four readers think he is innocent.th egoverment can and will us eany form of blackmail to get a guilty verdict..
HOW ABOUT THEY GO TO RABBI KASSIN AND SAY WE KNOW THAT SOME OF YOUR BALEY BATIM ARE SELLING FAKE GUCCIS,WE DO NOT KNOW WHICH ONE.TURN THEM IN AND BECOME A MOISER OR PLEA BARGAIN FOR A REDUCED SENTENCE,IF NOT WE THROUGH U AND MAYBE YOUR WIFE IN JAIL FOR TEN YEARS IF FOUND GUILTY BY A JURY(REMEMBER A JURY FOUND SIMPSON INNOCENT)
so please dear rabbi,do not write your mussar based on what if,you want to write that people should be more honest,gevaldig,but that has nothing to do with these five rabbanim,better to write on dan lkaf zecuth and ahavath chinam and tov ayin and loshon harah.believe the chillul hashem tears at my heart,and tell me how many tears you cried for chillul shmo hadadol,and then maybe i can read your article.
btw,laundering is a big word.for example i have a very poor family in israel that is in desoerate needs of funds,he learned in aish hatorah.again a hypothetical case,so i give the rosh yeshiva 2 tousand dollars and ask him to give half to this alumni who is no longer affiliated with aish.ther eis not one mossad in the world who will not do it,but to the fbi that is money laundering
there are many mosdos who do not have a tax id number so they work with anothe rsimilar mossad,that is called laundering i have no doubt that this anima dweck came to rabbi kassin and explained via ben-haim how all the money is going to charity and a cong.has quite a large range of how it distributes its charities,of course the feds throw it in your face.to go to trial would cost 500k,when found innocent,u do not get reimbursed,and the feds say if you do not plea bargain for say 2 years we will throw the book at you for 10 years
26
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:05 PM Turn it down Says:
“ nice speech if you give me $90.000 and i give you a$100.000 check and you pocket $10.000 would you turn it down alot people dont think when you are in their shoes give me the answer ”
Yes I would turn it down, actually I have been approached many years ago and asked to launder money, I was told there is an "unlimited supply of money to launder", I was in my mid 20s at the time, and I turned it down, for many reasons. But I still think that Dwek is a dirty snitch and he should be thrown out of every jewish community with shame.
27
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:04 PM Anonymous Says:
thanks for the inspiring essay. How many "gemoros" did u get for this?
28
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:03 PM MDshweks Says:
I insist:
The government is set up in a way that is un-just, and it is not so Poshut to give them an extra $50,000 if it could go to a Kollel in Eretz Yisroel (see Baba Kama 10th Perek)
All the Tzaddikim who call Ben Haim a crook either you yourself also rip the government, or someone in your community is doing it for you: your school, Gmach etc.
29
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:08 PM wiseman Says:
“ I thing the vast majority of people are just trying to stay above water. The gov. getting bigger and bigger, and even bigger, has made it impossible for a Torah Jew to send his kids to school, Yeshiva, while supporting to public schools and paying off for other people's houses etc. at the same time. Of course everyone should stay away from illeagal activities, but in retrospect, we must realize we are living under a system that does not care a bit about the regular guy, especially not the Jew, taking away %40 to %60 of income!
And if Obama's health care plan get inacted, you'll have people bribing gov. officials to get pushed up for an MRI... ”
Amen! Could not have said it better myself
30
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:15 PM Use Your Head Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you?
31
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:15 PM rabbis did better Says:
This mussardike drasha is good, I ,as a BT, still thinks that for a Frum Yd, Ruchnius is the ikar and Gashmius is tafel. Everything comes from Hashem
I am sure that these Rabbis also talked about this , and many times, to their congregations
In this case, I think that you are missing the all point
What is being called "laundering money" :criminal deeds, 'aveiros" it was just to save Shlomo Dwek.
Dwek was very close to them,b/c his father, and this is why they helped him
He gave lost of money for tzedaka, and now he was in very hard times
32
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:14 PM Anonymous Says:
If you don't like this country or feel it is to hard to be honest to live in it then get the hell out of it. NEVER EVER condone stealing. For anyone to argue about Rabbi Feinstein in what he says about the jonses and shwartzes, of course he is right and arguing with what a godol is plain stupid. If you have a problem or disgaree with what a rosh yeshiva says then pick up the phone and make a phone call and the rosh yeshiva would be glad to explain anything you do not understand.
It is hard living as a frum jew because we are constantly being taken advatage of by the foos stores, camps, tuitions and necessities.
Do we steal? NO. Thers a g-d and g-d takes care of us.
34
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:03 PM Hashem Yrachem Oleinu Says:
Interesting that you mention the 9 days of Av - the culmination of what's known as ben-hametzarim. Apparently, we have a modern day story of Kamtza-bar-Kamtza (Talmud Gittin). Although we may never know for sure what possessed S. Dwek to shamefully bring down the whole deck, many who "claim" to know him & the situation say he felt betrayed and shunned after his arrest by the very charitable orgs. that he generously benefited. This is one - if not of the main - lessons on how careful we have to be regarding kofuy tov even after discovering the ill-gotten gains of a benefactor.
35
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:15 PM Use Your Head Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you?
36
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:15 PM rabbis did better Says:
This mussardike drasha is good, I ,as a BT, still thinks that for a Frum Yd, Ruchnius is the ikar and Gashmius is tafel. Everything comes from Hashem
I am sure that these Rabbis also talked about this , and many times, to their congregations
In this case, I think that you are missing the all point
What is being called "laundering money" :criminal deeds, 'aveiros" it was just to save Shlomo Dwek.
Dwek was very close to them,b/c his father, and this is why they helped him
He gave lost of money for tzedaka, and now he was in very hard times
37
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:14 PM Anonymous Says:
If you don't like this country or feel it is to hard to be honest to live in it then get the hell out of it. NEVER EVER condone stealing. For anyone to argue about Rabbi Feinstein in what he says about the jonses and shwartzes, of course he is right and arguing with what a godol is plain stupid. If you have a problem or disgaree with what a rosh yeshiva says then pick up the phone and make a phone call and the rosh yeshiva would be glad to explain anything you do not understand.
It is hard living as a frum jew because we are constantly being taken advatage of by the foos stores, camps, tuitions and necessities.
Do we steal? NO. Thers a g-d and g-d takes care of us.
38
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
BRAVO!!
Finaly a guy who talks the numbers
40
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
BRAVO!!
Finaly a guy who talks the numbers
43
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If you don't like this country or feel it is to hard to be honest to live in it then get the hell out of it. NEVER EVER condone stealing. For anyone to argue about Rabbi Feinstein in what he says about the jonses and shwartzes, of course he is right and arguing with what a godol is plain stupid. If you have a problem or disgaree with what a rosh yeshiva says then pick up the phone and make a phone call and the rosh yeshiva would be glad to explain anything you do not understand.
It is hard living as a frum jew because we are constantly being taken advatage of by the foos stores, camps, tuitions and necessities.
Do we steal? NO. Thers a g-d and g-d takes care of us.
”
“ If you don't like this country or feel it is to hard to be honest to live in it then get the hell out of it. NEVER EVER condone stealing. For anyone to argue about Rabbi Feinstein in what he says about the jonses and shwartzes, of course he is right and arguing with what a godol is plain stupid. If you have a problem or disgaree with what a rosh yeshiva says then pick up the phone and make a phone call and the rosh yeshiva would be glad to explain anything you do not understand.
It is hard living as a frum jew because we are constantly being taken advatage of by the foos stores, camps, tuitions and necessities.
Do we steal? NO. Thers a g-d and g-d takes care of us.
”
Hellow! no one id arguing on R' Feinstein, we're arguing the application to this case. Get it?
44
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:51 PM end golus now Says:
I think that there will be statements from rabbonim of various organization stating that they don't condone money laundering. These organizations are protecting themselves by stating that they did not participate. They need to make statements because the press is looking for statements.
Life experience has taught me that there is more to a story than what is in the news and at this point we don't know enough to make statements either way. Some might not be guilty and others might be.
I don't even know that the motivation was greed. It might have been pressure though, to keep community activities going and it is possible that it didn't seem so risky. I think that every frum Jew now knows, TRUST NO ONE!
45
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:50 PM Truth Says:
There is no way to make it if you pay it all. Any1 that says they are is lying. I'm an accountant I KNOW. I live in a area that they charge me 19K in property tax alone!! I hope he gets what's coming to him! CW incase u are reading this " I guess when they cought u in yeshiva with that other bucher they really scared you SO bad that u ratted every1 out just to keep ur ass from that pain"!! Well let me give u a heads up keep a real tight grip on that soap wether in prison or in what ever area the feds hide u!!
46
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If you don't like this country or feel it is to hard to be honest to live in it then get the hell out of it. NEVER EVER condone stealing. For anyone to argue about Rabbi Feinstein in what he says about the jonses and shwartzes, of course he is right and arguing with what a godol is plain stupid. If you have a problem or disgaree with what a rosh yeshiva says then pick up the phone and make a phone call and the rosh yeshiva would be glad to explain anything you do not understand.
It is hard living as a frum jew because we are constantly being taken advatage of by the foos stores, camps, tuitions and necessities.
Do we steal? NO. Thers a g-d and g-d takes care of us.
”
“ If you don't like this country or feel it is to hard to be honest to live in it then get the hell out of it. NEVER EVER condone stealing. For anyone to argue about Rabbi Feinstein in what he says about the jonses and shwartzes, of course he is right and arguing with what a godol is plain stupid. If you have a problem or disgaree with what a rosh yeshiva says then pick up the phone and make a phone call and the rosh yeshiva would be glad to explain anything you do not understand.
It is hard living as a frum jew because we are constantly being taken advatage of by the foos stores, camps, tuitions and necessities.
Do we steal? NO. Thers a g-d and g-d takes care of us.
”
We are NOT talking about stealing, we are talking about money laundering AWAY from our dear government. And yes, I am looking to leave this Golus, waiting for the Massaiah, if you heared of him...
47
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:42 PM anonymous Says:
There is no way to make it by with paying all the tax they want! Where I live they take 20K a year for property tax alone!!!
48
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:40 PM a concerned yid Says:
Kudos to R' Greenman. this is the most inteligent well written piece I have seen from a yid on this disgrace to the jewish commmunities. all these "rabbis" deserve everything that is coming to them as do all that break both torah and secular laws.
49
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:32 PM Think Tank Says:
“ Interesting that you mention the 9 days of Av - the culmination of what's known as ben-hametzarim. Apparently, we have a modern day story of Kamtza-bar-Kamtza (Talmud Gittin). Although we may never know for sure what possessed S. Dwek to shamefully bring down the whole deck, many who "claim" to know him & the situation say he felt betrayed and shunned after his arrest by the very charitable orgs. that he generously benefited. This is one - if not of the main - lessons on how careful we have to be regarding kofuy tov even after discovering the ill-gotten gains of a benefactor. ”
What a stupit comment! Dweck brought down people who he didn't even know, and ruined there lives. He brought down his own family and community. Start smelling the coffee and think straight. We need to teach our children the din of Mosir "Moridin Vlo Malin"
50
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:26 PM Anonymous Says:
There are millions of ordinary people in the U.S. who work two or three jobs to support their families, send their kids to private schools, yeshivot or otherwise, pay their taxes on time etc. and ARE NOT GANOVIM. Stop trying to jusify or rationalize what these disgusting yiddin have done and such great harm and have trashed the reputation of klal yisroel by validating every antisemitic stereotype.. If you cannot afford to pay to send 5 kids to yeshivot than have fewer children or teach them at home; if you cannot afford brisket than eat chicken and tuna fish but DON'T STEAL and try to rationalize your behavior. Hashem doesn't expect us to be shomer torah and mitzvot by breaking the law or helping others break the law.
51
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
Nobody used it as a heter to steal, misconception.
The author wrote that the drive to make more money is driven an urge to live up with the Jones'es, so they keep on arguing that the necessesities and every day expenses are so high.
No yid will justify theft or any misdeeds including laundering.
52
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
Nobody used it as a heter to steal, misconception.
The author wrote that the drive to make more money is driven an urge to live up with the Jones'es, so they keep on arguing that the necessesities and every day expenses are so high.
No yid will justify theft or any misdeeds including laundering.
54
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
Why do you thing it's so simple that everything must have a solution? you don't believe we're in Golus in the hands of the nations who rob us in all kinds of ways? and no, there's no answer to get by, and laundering is NOT stealing, and your money is NOT Obama's money, the guy who got $500 Million from Arab countries...
55
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:
This article is not complete, let me finish it up so we understand what it has to do with this so called money laundering ring!?!
This Soloman Dwek YM''S was a 20 year old buchir when he decided that he has to be the riches guy in the community so he will have everything what everyone 'no matter what age' has, so he decided to start all type of fraudulant activities so he will have everything what everyone has 'as explained in the above article, now, after he was caught he didn't stop he decided to do the worst things imagineable!
He together with his mafia bosses 'which are called by their undercover names of FBI in US & KGB in Russia ' and instead of them doing their job fighting real crimes, 'the whole money laundering law was created to fight drugs so by imposing such harsh 20 year sentences for one count of money laundering they were hoping to cut off the money sources, now instead, these FBI wanted to show that they are doing a good job in fighting crime and can do a lot of convictions, so they started producing crime the FBI set up fraudulant companies and took a big crook someone who knows how to manipulate people and to convince them by offering big money and then they will be able to make big press conferences saying that they broke up one of the biggest corruption ring! can someone explain what this is all about there is no RING there is one FBI ring who went around and entrapted people!
57
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work.
58
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
Why do you thing it's so simple that everything must have a solution? you don't believe we're in Golus in the hands of the nations who rob us in all kinds of ways? and no, there's no answer to get by, and laundering is NOT stealing, and your money is NOT Obama's money, the guy who got $500 Million from Arab countries...
59
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:
This article is not complete, let me finish it up so we understand what it has to do with this so called money laundering ring!?!
This Soloman Dwek YM''S was a 20 year old buchir when he decided that he has to be the riches guy in the community so he will have everything what everyone 'no matter what age' has, so he decided to start all type of fraudulant activities so he will have everything what everyone has 'as explained in the above article, now, after he was caught he didn't stop he decided to do the worst things imagineable!
He together with his mafia bosses 'which are called by their undercover names of FBI in US & KGB in Russia ' and instead of them doing their job fighting real crimes, 'the whole money laundering law was created to fight drugs so by imposing such harsh 20 year sentences for one count of money laundering they were hoping to cut off the money sources, now instead, these FBI wanted to show that they are doing a good job in fighting crime and can do a lot of convictions, so they started producing crime the FBI set up fraudulant companies and took a big crook someone who knows how to manipulate people and to convince them by offering big money and then they will be able to make big press conferences saying that they broke up one of the biggest corruption ring! can someone explain what this is all about there is no RING there is one FBI ring who went around and entrapted people!
61
Jul 26, 2009 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work.
62
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:40 PM Anonymous Says:
A yid wouldn't justify stealing, laundering etc. what happened (or didn't happen) is one thing. and what's going on in the community is something else.
If not for the tactics this piece of Drek used and the connections and soft hearts he preyed on, he would never succeed!
Its well known how hard it is to find someone to wash out money, its nearly impossible. This Drek confronted many more people, maybe hundreds and he was turned down by them!
63
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ What a stupit comment! Dweck brought down people who he didn't even know, and ruined there lives. He brought down his own family and community. Start smelling the coffee and think straight. We need to teach our children the din of Mosir "Moridin Vlo Malin" ”
How about you teach your children that they should not launder money, that would be a good start.
65
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:26 PM Anonymous Says:
the kidney person wasn't selfless. He paid $5,000 and charged $160,000
66
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:25 PM Anonymous Says:
“ dweck approached hundreds of people ,must threw him to the dogs were he belongs.have u noticed the lack of any syrian busnismen indicted?they had the sense to avoid him
i do not know the rabanim involved but i do know that we are required to be dan l'kaf zechuthi also know that even if found guilty that means nothing.oj simpson was found innocent,does any o four readers think he is innocent.th egoverment can and will us eany form of blackmail to get a guilty verdict..
HOW ABOUT THEY GO TO RABBI KASSIN AND SAY WE KNOW THAT SOME OF YOUR BALEY BATIM ARE SELLING FAKE GUCCIS,WE DO NOT KNOW WHICH ONE.TURN THEM IN AND BECOME A MOISER OR PLEA BARGAIN FOR A REDUCED SENTENCE,IF NOT WE THROUGH U AND MAYBE YOUR WIFE IN JAIL FOR TEN YEARS IF FOUND GUILTY BY A JURY(REMEMBER A JURY FOUND SIMPSON INNOCENT)
so please dear rabbi,do not write your mussar based on what if,you want to write that people should be more honest,gevaldig,but that has nothing to do with these five rabbanim,better to write on dan lkaf zecuth and ahavath chinam and tov ayin and loshon harah.believe the chillul hashem tears at my heart,and tell me how many tears you cried for chillul shmo hadadol,and then maybe i can read your article.
btw,laundering is a big word.for example i have a very poor family in israel that is in desoerate needs of funds,he learned in aish hatorah.again a hypothetical case,so i give the rosh yeshiva 2 tousand dollars and ask him to give half to this alumni who is no longer affiliated with aish.ther eis not one mossad in the world who will not do it,but to the fbi that is money laundering
there are many mosdos who do not have a tax id number so they work with anothe rsimilar mossad,that is called laundering i have no doubt that this anima dweck came to rabbi kassin and explained via ben-haim how all the money is going to charity and a cong.has quite a large range of how it distributes its charities,of course the feds throw it in your face.to go to trial would cost 500k,when found innocent,u do not get reimbursed,and the feds say if you do not plea bargain for say 2 years we will throw the book at you for 10 years ”
Misterzee
Poster # 25
You know something, even if you write a long essay, you still don’t know what you are talking about, lots of words doesn’t make your argument right.
67
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:22 PM Oh Please Says:
“ Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work. ”
“ Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work. ”
This is simply not true. It may alleviate some of the issues. It will not solve the problem that we are pricing ourselves out of our own religion. A college degree is NOT a ticket to wealth. College degree may help and is definitely better than not having one BUT it does not guarantee anything, especially not the salary you need to pay 40K plus tuition year in, year out.
68
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:25 PM Anonymous Says:
“ These weren't "money-laundering schemes", these were cases where a moiser, went to search out people and used his name and his family name, to ask people to please do him a favor and cash a check. They were trying to help him out, far from a "money-laundering scheme". If all these "money-laundering schemes" together did a total of $3 million dollars of business in 3 years, they're pretty bad at the business, and thats not a "scheme". Which just shows it wasnt a "money-laundering scheme", they were trying to help someone out, they didnt go to him, he searched them out. ”
THEY COMMITED A CRIME!. Would it have been ok if he said, help me out , I bought traif mreat, could you give me a hashgacha anyway?
69
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:22 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work. ”
“ Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work. ”
Non of my family got educated on a job in college, and all are BH very matzliach with several types of businesses.
Most people manage to get a good job or career, few don't, same is in every circle, some are rich, most have decent income and some are in poverty.
Nobody will go around look to launder money or steal, (you may find an exception for a few crooks like in every place or circle).
In this case here, those alleged launderers were baited and shlepped into this ordeal by a low life criminal who pleaded with those Rabbis / askonim and begged them to help him, and this beast wanted no more than save himself with soaking in those victims he just lured into illegal activity.
70
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ mi somcho who appointed you to give mussar to people who my be erlicer,better ,& much more giving than many others who might have broken"the hilige american law" yes we are in golus & have to avoid such negative spotlighting but if you saw the fbi clipping on the arrests, the condesending attitute toward people that according to us law are innocent until proven otherwise & are entrapment victims of a drek
every understands this is strictly political & yes anti -semitism dept of justice style if dina demalchosa was once applicable that news conference ended it once & for all we must do what we can to help not only our fellows jews but all the entraped victims &do the utmost to dismantle a justice system based on politics ,ego, blind ambition,vandetta etc ”
You are right, just one question? who appointed you
71
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:19 PM Reality Says:
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
“ I love you people. Using the frum lifestyle as a heter for theft! What a load of hypocrisy. What's the point in sending your children to a yeshiva if it is paid for with stolen funds?
The solutions to this "problem" are 1) Family Planning (yes, there are ways to do this that are within a Torah framework) - don't have more children than you can reasonably support, 2) HIGHER EDUCATION - being that most people are not cut out to own their own businesses, higher education (college and/or other professional training) is an accepted, KOSHER way to honorably support one's family. There are plenty of professions that pay over $200k per year with ten years' experience. No it's not easy, but life is not supposed to be easy.
This is really news to you? ”
Really? Do you really think that most people are able to make 200K? Wow. Ignorance is bliss I guess. I WENT to law school and graduated in the top of my class. And guess what; not everyone makes 200K. Where are you coming from that everyone can make that kind of money by working hard.
Do you realize that only 8% of this entire country of 300 MILLION people make that much. I wonder who needs to take his head out of the sand.
73
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:17 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There are millions of ordinary people in the U.S. who work two or three jobs to support their families, send their kids to private schools, yeshivot or otherwise, pay their taxes on time etc. and ARE NOT GANOVIM. Stop trying to jusify or rationalize what these disgusting yiddin have done and such great harm and have trashed the reputation of klal yisroel by validating every antisemitic stereotype.. If you cannot afford to pay to send 5 kids to yeshivot than have fewer children or teach them at home; if you cannot afford brisket than eat chicken and tuna fish but DON'T STEAL and try to rationalize your behavior. Hashem doesn't expect us to be shomer torah and mitzvot by breaking the law or helping others break the law. ”
1st - why do you say:Ganavim? we're talking about laundering, not stealing!
2nd - Yeh... you really counted million, and you know all their buisness. and even if there are these, they are a small minority, and even that minority are using Yeshivos and other institutions who NEED to do it.
It's very easy for a private person who worries only about himself and his family to critisize people who deal with the greater picture. If you look at the greater picture it's very clear - it's a bare nessesity in this Golus - Shibud Malchios.
74
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:16 PM Anonymous Says:
Basically you just pronounced to the whole world that all of our organizations are involved in illegal acts. Loser
76
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:11 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It's a big chutzpah to accuse the Rabanim of wrong doing with out knowing the whole story. This is the old classic case of Sinas Am Ha'aretz for a talmid chacham. The lesson to learnt is that if you are a Moiser then Klal Yisroel will spit at you and no one will ever want to associate themselves with you ”
What has this article to do with a Moiser it is irrelevant what CW did or did not do. This article is discussing what theses alleged money laundress did and his option why they did it. So get a grip on yourself.
77
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:09 PM Anonymous Says:
It is well known in our communities that if you want to launder money you are hitting a wall! first of all, there's no cash out there. (I remember years ago when there was plenty cash).
Also all mosdos are very strict with cashing checks or giving change to a check.
I worked in 2 mosdos in Brooklyn, both had such strict guidelines.
I remember one instance when a mother brought a check to pay tuition, and she asked back 20 dollars, the administrator refused, after she pleaded that she is pennieless and just needs a few bucks for bus and car fare he lended her from his pocket $20 as a personal loan, and her husband paid him back a few days later.
This article is great, but it gives a wrong picture as if it's a "normal regular procedure" to launder or to be involved in any illegal activity.
78
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:08 PM והוה דן את כל האדם לכף זכות Says:
What I can't understand is how they threw in the fellow's name making it sound as if he bought/sold body parts.
How about if it really happened this way:
There are many who need kidney transplants. This fellow, a caring person, searches and finds with much effort, a suitable donor from Israel. Now, the donor will have to travel back and forth from Israel to the states, yes? He will have to lose a few months from work, yes? He will lose a few months salary from his job, yes? So, if this donor gets compensated for all of this $10,000. It's really nothing. Now compensation for lost time, money, etc. is permissible.
OK? Now the recipient might be a very wealthy person who willingly giving $160,000 to this organization, so that other people with limited financial means could benefit and get kidney replacements.
So, all of sudden now, there is absolutely no buying/selling here, but permissible acts of kindness!!
79
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:05 PM Yanki Says:
To #8
Dont call these Rabbonim Drek, some respect. By the way we need Lawmakers from our community who understand our communities needs to represent and call our call. This country was founded on great ideas by great leaders. This has to keep up. Specially in our times when everything is regulated.(Percentage wise the USA have the most people in the jails)
80
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work. ”
“ Excellant point. The real problem is with the cost of a frun life so expensive the lack of education for a decent job (or at least a chance for a decent job) makes it impossable to survive. We need to change our current way of chinuch and start educating our kids with basic skills and professions. We need to start teaching our kids the someone working and supporting his family is a respected person. Only those with a chanch to become gedolai yisroel should stay in kollel the rest should go to work. ”
I have no idea where you live, in our community all people come from yeshiva and kollel and manage to run very successful businesses, from food to apparel to real estate mortgages and stocks, you name it.
Some do go to college or to part time classes in order to get some degree or license, but their education doesn't interfere with their business success, it only enhances it.
81
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I have no idea where you live, in our community all people come from yeshiva and kollel and manage to run very successful businesses, from food to apparel to real estate mortgages and stocks, you name it.
Some do go to college or to part time classes in order to get some degree or license, but their education doesn't interfere with their business success, it only enhances it. ”
Not everyone is an entrepenuer or is cut out to be a business person. If you look at any data on earnings, you will find that having a college degree, greatly enhances the odds of making a decent living, and having an advanced degree further improves those odds.
82
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ What I can't understand is how they threw in the fellow's name making it sound as if he bought/sold body parts.
How about if it really happened this way:
There are many who need kidney transplants. This fellow, a caring person, searches and finds with much effort, a suitable donor from Israel. Now, the donor will have to travel back and forth from Israel to the states, yes? He will have to lose a few months from work, yes? He will lose a few months salary from his job, yes? So, if this donor gets compensated for all of this $10,000. It's really nothing. Now compensation for lost time, money, etc. is permissible.
OK? Now the recipient might be a very wealthy person who willingly giving $160,000 to this organization, so that other people with limited financial means could benefit and get kidney replacements.
So, all of sudden now, there is absolutely no buying/selling here, but permissible acts of kindness!!
”
Like it or not, selling organs for transplants is against the law in this country. You can come up with all kinds of svoros that justify paying someone who's an organ donor or the broker, but it's still against the law.
83
Jul 26, 2009 at 04:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Kudos to R' Greenman. this is the most inteligent well written piece I have seen from a yid on this disgrace to the jewish commmunities. all these "rabbis" deserve everything that is coming to them as do all that break both torah and secular laws. ”
Do you also hope that Hashem gives you everything that you deserve? Remember, how you judge others is how Hashem will judge you.
84
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:25 PM Anonymous Says:
Allow me to share just a few off the cuff extensions to your line of reasoning condoning unregulated organ traffiking. Here are some realistic potential scenarios:
1. The harvesting of organs from individuals carrying terrible diseases including AIDS and then transplanting them into desperate, vulnerable victims.
2. The harvesting of organs from pple medically unfit for the experience--yet desperate for the funds.
3. Unsafe, hazardous surgical procedures and inadequate followup care endangering the lives of both donors and recipients.
Im sure these thoughts r just the tip of the iceberg! In short, pple desperate for medical salvation as well as pple desperate 4 money --and this includes the broker--are vunerable to assuming outrageous risks of all sorts. Regulation increases safety and minimizes vulnerability of those at greatest risk of exploitation. We cannot be above the law.
85
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:49 PM Anonymous Says:
It's so easy to sit here and with your pretty little blog, and belittle klal yisroel for spending money on things we don't need. While this may be true for a (small IMO) portion of frum jews today, the reality is that the amount of money needed for an average family just to make ends meet is so outrageous, that it can drive any sane person to the brink.
Think about it; everyone strives to buy a house. Now I don't need to tell anyone just how expensive houses in Brooklyn are in spite of the fact that the rest of the country's real estate market is in the pits. So just your mortgage payment alone is $4000 - $5000.
Now, everyone's favorite expense; TUITION!! Of course the schools are there just to be mechanech our kids and just l'shem shomayim. I don't know about you man, but I'm CONVINCED someone is making a killing. Yes, I understand no one works for free, and let them earn their paycheck, but the amount the average schools in NY charge just simply doesn't make sense.
Let's talk now about Kosher Food. I'm not putting this in the same category as tuition because I understand it costs lots of money to have mashgichim at every step of the way. Fine. All I'm saying is, it ain't cheap.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Even if you aren't spending on luxuries you don't need, just getting by requires at the very LEAST $120k a year MINIUMUM!! That's alot of cash if you ask me. Now I'm in no way condoning wrong doing in any way shape or form to acquire this needed money, but the undertone of this article is that all of us are spending money we don't have on things we don't need. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE!!!!
86
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ THEY COMMITED A CRIME!. Would it have been ok if he said, help me out , I bought traif mreat, could you give me a hashgacha anyway? ”
A "Crime" in whos book? G-d's book or Lehavdil...?
88
Jul 26, 2009 at 06:01 PM rabbi Says:
Dear Rabbi YItz GREENMAN
Any of the Rabbis that today are facing this nisayon, would say a drasha in the same subject as you today ,or even better
Try to understand , that everyone has different tests, and we(and you) should daven Never to have a test like these Rabbis
89
Jul 26, 2009 at 06:01 PM Shtusim Says:
“ Allow me to share just a few off the cuff extensions to your line of reasoning condoning unregulated organ traffiking. Here are some realistic potential scenarios:
1. The harvesting of organs from individuals carrying terrible diseases including AIDS and then transplanting them into desperate, vulnerable victims.
2. The harvesting of organs from pple medically unfit for the experience--yet desperate for the funds.
3. Unsafe, hazardous surgical procedures and inadequate followup care endangering the lives of both donors and recipients.
Im sure these thoughts r just the tip of the iceberg! In short, pple desperate for medical salvation as well as pple desperate 4 money --and this includes the broker--are vunerable to assuming outrageous risks of all sorts. Regulation increases safety and minimizes vulnerability of those at greatest risk of exploitation. We cannot be above the law. ”
#84, your arguments against paying to help facilitate kidney transplants is all shtusim.
The Surgery is carried out in state of the art US hospitals with the precise same doctors and precise same standards as the non-paid for transplants.
All screening is 100% identical.
The only difference is that someone is brought in form off shore so that we get more people than the on shore supply, but everyone is tested for quality control and health the 100% exact same way as if the person did it for free.
The only difference is you get more people saying "no" if the person doing it is also rewarded and not only "Lishma".
91
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:42 PM Anonymous Says:
in the cases of money laundering, it wasn't about selfish needs, it was about making money for the mosdos to be able to pay their bills, and anyway, what issur is there that they transgressed other than chilul hshem(which they didnt plan on transgressing)
93
Jul 26, 2009 at 05:35 PM Hishtadlus Says:
“ I have no idea where you live, in our community all people come from yeshiva and kollel and manage to run very successful businesses, from food to apparel to real estate mortgages and stocks, you name it.
Some do go to college or to part time classes in order to get some degree or license, but their education doesn't interfere with their business success, it only enhances it. ”
I have loads of friends in Brooklyn, Lakewood, and many other places.....and I'm quite familiar with who is doing what for a living. In the most part, those with no degree, are very much struggling and dependent on programs. I know of many Yungeleit who tried to get jobs without degrees and then with kids and debts had to start going to school, and others who stay on programs because they can't afford not to, and they struggle ans Shnor from relatives their whole lives.
Those that "manage to run very successful businesses, from food to apparel to real estate mortgages and stocks, you name it", had parents give them money to invest in businesses and supported their children's large families in the meantime". Also, a lot of the fields where many have been successful in the past, are just about gone today (mortgages, stocks...).
Ain Somchin Al haNes.
94
Jul 26, 2009 at 07:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ in the cases of money laundering, it wasn't about selfish needs, it was about making money for the mosdos to be able to pay their bills, and anyway, what issur is there that they transgressed other than chilul hshem(which they didnt plan on transgressing) ”
“in the cases of money laundering, it wasn't about selfish needs, it was about making money for the mosdos to be able to pay their bills,
For the 100th time...it was illegal...call it whatever you want. These vile people broke the law and validated every antisemitic stereotype about yiddin controlling the financial world". It would have been much better had they taken a gun and robbed a bank...This is much worse in the long term.
95
Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12 PM you hit the nail on the head Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
the only answer is college and birth control. these two things are what Hashem wants us to do. otherwise it is either genieva or Ein Somchin Al Haness
96
Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:
"If this is what Torah observance is about, then I don't want to be part of it"
This is how I feel as a ba'al teshuva. With the violent demonstrations, the Spinka Rebbe, the cover up of the child molesters, and now this. I really feel disallusioned.
97
Jul 26, 2009 at 06:50 PM Dovid Says:
For the sephardim there are no "9 days" like we have, only Shavua Shechal Bo Tisha B'Av, which is not when they were arrested.
98
Jul 26, 2009 at 06:35 PM Insider Says:
None of the papers or newsreports told us that Rabbi Fish, or any of the other rabbis, is accused of going to Atlantic City or night clubs. On the contrary, they are shown to have taken money for tzedaka and charitable purposes. Although the receipt of that money and how it was processed may be questioned (innocent until guilty !!), no one claims that even one cent was spent for personal purposes. If guilty, they are only 99% tzaddikim !!
99
Jul 26, 2009 at 08:41 PM THANK YOU!!!! Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
Thank you for your comment, I made this point on another article. I think that the solution is to move out of NYC, where the Cost of Living is so tremendously high, people should move to other places around the country, there are many places in the US where you can still buy houses for 50k, why not relocate in large numbers and start building schools, businesses, etc. I think this is the only solution, even if you start sending everyone to college and teach them a trade - Which every father is obligated by the Torah to teach his children - Still there are will be alot who even after college education will not be able to support themselves, as there are alot of college graduates who are unemployed. The only way is to move to places where the cost of living is alot lower than NYC. It is about time that the community leaders and Rabbi's start doing something about this very serious problem.
102
Jul 26, 2009 at 09:05 PM Anonymous Says:
Rabbi Greenman,
your article left me breathless. It was insulting drivel: The assertion that at the core of this issue is that people are chasing after luxuries? Most people are trying to make ends meet. I know full well that ohev kessef lo yisba kessef and you as a fundraiser certainly know this from the side of the ashirim -- but when the hamon am does not have enough it is because like # 19 said: they objectively don't have enough. A family of 4-5-6 children needs x amount of money. If they don't have it, someone else must pay for their minimums -- tuition, health insurance, mortgage- this is about $120 - $150K
Your words were not only tacky cliches but they were inane as well. For example, "in reality a run-down shack is enough" Feh! Aside from a summer bungalow where people are living in with their chevrah, where do you think you could get a run-down shack in places where Jews live like Monsey, Kew Gardens Hills, Flatbush, Teaneck, Passaic? Are you out of your mind?
If only that we were satisfied with a run-down shack, health insurance, tuition far surpass what people pay for their mortgages even in their modest homes. Btw, the bungalow shack that you speak of is certainly not free and not everyone can afford that on top of their regular year-round house.
But to think that this scandal (if proven true) is because of greed, is absurd. There is a lack of respect for american law -- which is not necessarily sacro-sanct, but we observe it because it makes sense to do so. It was a big ripoff of a government that has been very good to us. This is not about halacha, but about humanity -- thou shall not be a chazer! (if proven true)
Rabbi Greenman, I say you are out of touch.
103
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:08 PM Anonymous Says:
“ the kidney person wasn't selfless. He paid $5,000 and charged $160,000 ”
not selfless? first of all, I dont KNOW if he profited 155,000.00 I strongly doubt that. but even so, he is entitled to earn money. He still has to live, pay a mortgage, electricity, etc. I will not offer my opinion as to how much he should earn, but certainly he IS entitled to...
104
Jul 26, 2009 at 09:43 PM In reality, a run-down shack isnt enough. Says:
"It's simple," he said. "If it weren't for the neighbors, everyone would be happy with what they have. Here in the mountains, everyone is living in run-down shacks and there's nothing better to compare it to -- yet it's enough, because in reality it is enough. But at home there are many different houses on the block, some are nicer and have bigger backyards, and as we compare ours with the others, we tell ourselves that what we have is not enough. That's how people make themselves miserable."
The reason people are happy with a run down shack is because they know they have a nice home to go home to...or if it really is run down it is generally a rental and people think to themselves its not so bad since I dont own it.
105
Jul 26, 2009 at 09:36 PM me Says:
I congratulate the rabbi who is supposed to be in kiruv for being able to think like a Goy Gumar. Shulchan Oruch also new about chillul Hashem and in the case of a moser, irregardless of whether the charges are true or not Shulchan Oruch tells us how deal with a moser. Here is a case of a professional moser who searched out innocent Yidden in order to entrap them, to lessen his CHILLUL HASHEM PLUS MISIRER. A gemach accepts money to help Yidden, He hands the money to the Gemach and says this is the money I made in the insurance scam in LA, the legitimate gemach now becomes an accessory to insurance fraud, likewise if he says take this money so I don't have to pay taxes on it, the gemach is now an accesory to tax evasion, even though they have no responsibility to ask where the money came from.
106
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Allow me to share just a few off the cuff extensions to your line of reasoning condoning unregulated organ traffiking. Here are some realistic potential scenarios:
1. The harvesting of organs from individuals carrying terrible diseases including AIDS and then transplanting them into desperate, vulnerable victims.
2. The harvesting of organs from pple medically unfit for the experience--yet desperate for the funds.
3. Unsafe, hazardous surgical procedures and inadequate followup care endangering the lives of both donors and recipients.
Im sure these thoughts r just the tip of the iceberg! In short, pple desperate for medical salvation as well as pple desperate 4 money --and this includes the broker--are vunerable to assuming outrageous risks of all sorts. Regulation increases safety and minimizes vulnerability of those at greatest risk of exploitation. We cannot be above the law. ”
you must be smoking something funny. before the organ is used the donor as well as the recipient are thoroughly tested. the $$$ does not it any way change the success of the procedure.
107
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:12 PM Tammy Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
If a family decides to have children, it is the parents' achrayus to provide for them. In today's day and age, that is a very pricey adventure. I feel that a potential 'solution' to your dilemma is that both the mother and the father attend college and get or develop a viable, marketable skill. I feel that it is actually irresponsible to bring many children into this world without a plan of action and exceptional hishtadlus. It is assur to be 'somech al hanes'. Now, I am not deriding kolel families who put forth a valiant effort to do with less and live simpler lives for the sake of Tatty being able to learn Torah, because if Tatty is learning leshmah, what he is earning will reap dividends greater than any multi million dollar salary can, but I am speaking for the 98% of the rest of the families who are leaning too heavily on their parents, in laws, wife, govt. etc for support or handouts. Healthy young men SHOULD WORK! I remember learning that it says that a man must divide his day into thirds. 1/3 devoted to working, 1/3 devoted to learning, and 1/3 to sleeping. Why can this not be a viable formula today? Why can we not encourage our young men to develop skills that will enable them to be competitive in the workforce? Why is this seen as such a 'bizayon'?
So, in a nutshell, my answer would be to 1.Go to school 2. learn a skill or trade, 3. get married 4, GET A JOB, 5. have children 6 live a decent and hardworking life and enjoy the Bracha Hashem will shower upon you!
108
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM misterzee Says:
“ Misterzee
Poster # 25
You know something, even if you write a long essay, you still don’t know what you are talking about, lots of words doesn’t make your argument right. ”
maybe you can find one inaccuricy in my lengthy words?saying i am not right,does not mean i am not right,i will happily hear your side
109
Jul 26, 2009 at 10:53 PM misterzee Says:
finally the voice of an ohaiv yisroel,melamed zechuth,yirbu kamocha b'yisroel,i would like my mo and co freinds to respond to this
110
Jul 26, 2009 at 11:10 PM areyouforreal? Says:
“ the only answer is college and birth control. these two things are what Hashem wants us to do. otherwise it is either genieva or Ein Somchin Al Haness ”
I am sure you are sarcastic! Please say of course!
111
Jul 26, 2009 at 11:02 PM Loshon Hora Says:
This article sickens me.
I am very upfront & honest in business that even the goyim I work with say I am too much of a nice guy.
When they came up with the Jews[this story], I asked if they have ever seen honesty like mine? their answer was Hell no, but you are from the minority. I answered those that are not honest are from the minority.
Please Mr. Aish look at the inditements , not the press conference, no one is even alleged of taking money for themselves,[for their charities] most seem very reluctant to do it & want as little as possible done by them, we are talking about [edited, they say they have hundreds of hours] soundbites, by a master conman, who manipulated a bank to cash a 25 Mil check, with no guaranees. [BTW, where were those bankers paraded in hand-cuffs B4 cameras.] Crying about a hungry wife & kids.
From the list it is obvious, he told the FBI I will bring you Rabbis & politicians,[he went on a witch huntno list was given to him] only his closest gave in, & one or two good hearted goodoers. I heard he tried many others who had less rachmones on him, & knew him as a labled crook.
Your attack on Rabonim based on a posul leeidus & media is baseless disgusting & revolting instead of attacking the moiser, and rachmonus on the nirdofim.
Although Aish charging the 10K mentioned above doesn't need my donations, nor Arachim & the rest of your stuf, you have put me off, I will also have to tell my freinds a moisad who promotes that style of achzoriuse yidishkeit, may as well leave the frier alone, they are not being mekarev they are being merachek.
I honestly think that until you resign from Aish all frumer yidden should boycot & not give any donations, too such a dispicable form of Judism. Promoting your own ego at the expense of scamed off Rabonim, in the biggest tzaar of their lives. You lack the three midos of talmidov Shel avrohom Avinu.SHAME ON YOU SHAME ON AISH, SHAME ON YOUR PARENTS who brought you up like this. MHO.
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Jul 26, 2009 at 10:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ “in the cases of money laundering, it wasn't about selfish needs, it was about making money for the mosdos to be able to pay their bills,
For the 100th time...it was illegal...call it whatever you want. These vile people broke the law and validated every antisemitic stereotype about yiddin controlling the financial world". It would have been much better had they taken a gun and robbed a bank...This is much worse in the long term. ”
This is the dumbest thing I've heard from everything written on this blog. And that's saying ALOT.
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Jul 26, 2009 at 10:37 PM Tammy Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
To all the posters who are chiding R' Greenman, please be aware of the concept 'shtika kehodaya'- silence is equivalent to acceptance. I think EVERY Rav MUST make a statement in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, that illegal ,irresponsible behavior is NEVER acceptable. It is not ok as a way to support a lifestyle, or even as a source of charity. This must be condemned in the strongest way possible. Rabbi Greenman suggests one possible reason that some may drive to such behaviors, jealousy. I feel that every Rav from every kehilla can use this sad, unfortunate case as an example of a clear 'lav' that is assur! Whether they speak about it, give drashos, or write opinion pieces on the web, it is imperative for all Rabonim to take a position on this issue and that is on the side of Emes.
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Jul 26, 2009 at 11:16 PM Anonymous Says:
This case may be entrapment, and I agree that the FBI is after our people to make public examples, nevertheless, I find that most people in our community don't realize how careful we have to be from these matters. One little mistake can end your life as you know it forever. Be extra makpid, raboisai.
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Jul 26, 2009 at 11:32 PM Anonymous Says:
R. Yitz Greenman,
Seriously? Is this what you write? Why don't you give up your six figure salary? Practice what you preach my friend. Mussar from Aish with regards to the mighty dollar? That is grand. The innovators of charging massive rates for "executive" learning are now lecturing about being content with less? What about the Aish executive sky boxes over looking the Kotel. Practice what you preach my friend otherwise you should give up preaching.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 06:44 AM l'chafzchus Says:
I read a comment on a different site which makes alot of sense. These "rabbis" who do illegal actions are coming from parents whose only way of survival was the black market. they lived in a time and place(Europe) where anti semitism was ingrained in each single person around them. so that they had to come to such situations therefore I guess it was passed on to their offspring with no fault of their own. Those growing up in America with American parents see it differently. so please,"hevei dan es kol odom lechaf zechus and may they be released and cleared as soon as possible. especially as we know this was definitely not done out of "greed".
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Jul 27, 2009 at 01:29 AM Anonymous Says:
“ This case may be entrapment, and I agree that the FBI is after our people to make public examples, nevertheless, I find that most people in our community don't realize how careful we have to be from these matters. One little mistake can end your life as you know it forever. Be extra makpid, raboisai. ”
“ This case may be entrapment..."
Nobody put a gun to their head and made them launder the money. Even if they can successfully use entrapment as a defense to get off, what they did was still worng even if they're not convicted.
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Jul 26, 2009 at 11:50 PM Anonymous Says:
To #19
I agree with you. Where I live in California the expenses are way higher than that. In order to pay for everything you mentioned without eating, never mind vacations, you have to earn about $500,000 annually. Even frum doctors and lawyers who did go to college can not afford a plain lifestyle. Maybe something should be done about the tuition problem, it's killing us. You can't judge people for wanting to just be able to live half decently.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 04:12 AM aron d. Says:
“ I congratulate the rabbi who is supposed to be in kiruv for being able to think like a Goy Gumar. Shulchan Oruch also new about chillul Hashem and in the case of a moser, irregardless of whether the charges are true or not Shulchan Oruch tells us how deal with a moser. Here is a case of a professional moser who searched out innocent Yidden in order to entrap them, to lessen his CHILLUL HASHEM PLUS MISIRER. A gemach accepts money to help Yidden, He hands the money to the Gemach and says this is the money I made in the insurance scam in LA, the legitimate gemach now becomes an accessory to insurance fraud, likewise if he says take this money so I don't have to pay taxes on it, the gemach is now an accesory to tax evasion, even though they have no responsibility to ask where the money came from. ”
in america and in yitz greenmans world rape and murder and maybe tax evation are all asur only because of dinah dmalchusa
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Jul 27, 2009 at 07:31 AM Tanna Kamma Says:
“ "If this is what Torah observance is about, then I don't want to be part of it"
This is how I feel as a ba'al teshuva. With the violent demonstrations, the Spinka Rebbe, the cover up of the child molesters, and now this. I really feel disallusioned. ”
Why do you concentrate on a handful of wrongdoers & ignore all the good to be found in our people, I don't think abandoning your faith will place you in better company...
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Jul 27, 2009 at 09:40 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "If this is what Torah observance is about, then I don't want to be part of it"
This is how I feel as a ba'al teshuva. With the violent demonstrations, the Spinka Rebbe, the cover up of the child molesters, and now this. I really feel disallusioned. ”
Ha Ha Ha!! You gave yourself away with your atrocious spelling. You're no BT!!
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Jul 27, 2009 at 10:05 AM Shlomo Says:
I think all the Greenman and Aish bashers are not quite seeing things from the same vantage point as the author intended. Aish HaTorah, all the Kiruv organizations, and individuals that are invloved with Kiruv Rechokim are caught between a rock and hard place when such a story r"l breaks. They are asked these poignant questions by the baalei teshuva that they are associated with as well as by potential baalei teshuva. They have to come up with good answers if they are to continue being successful. I assume that this article from Rabbi Greenman was not written so much to mussar the readership of VIN and the like as it is a response to the hard questions they are being asked by the people where an answer could make it or break it for them. I asume as well (I may be wrong here) that this article was not written as a VIN editorial or Op-Ed. This was probably written for Aish.com and reprinted here with permission of course. I think if we look at it with this perspective the criticism for Rabbi Greenman should falter, at least somewhat. May we merit to see the Geulah speedily in our days yet before this week Thursday. Amen.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 11:54 AM Loshon Hora Says:
“ I think all the Greenman and Aish bashers are not quite seeing things from the same vantage point as the author intended. Aish HaTorah, all the Kiruv organizations, and individuals that are invloved with Kiruv Rechokim are caught between a rock and hard place when such a story r"l breaks. They are asked these poignant questions by the baalei teshuva that they are associated with as well as by potential baalei teshuva. They have to come up with good answers if they are to continue being successful. I assume that this article from Rabbi Greenman was not written so much to mussar the readership of VIN and the like as it is a response to the hard questions they are being asked by the people where an answer could make it or break it for them. I asume as well (I may be wrong here) that this article was not written as a VIN editorial or Op-Ed. This was probably written for Aish.com and reprinted here with permission of course. I think if we look at it with this perspective the criticism for Rabbi Greenman should falter, at least somewhat. May we merit to see the Geulah speedily in our days yet before this week Thursday. Amen. ”
Judism is one , There is no room for compromise, if a baal Tshuve can't accept judism as it is, please don't change or compromise it to atract him.
Rav Scach & the Satmarer Rav were not for this type of getting people to do tshuva, do tshuva yourself & let them come on their own.[how it goes: If a Yid will answer Omein In Lita, another yid will be Shomer shabboss in Paris]
I guess if you have to alter Judism to atract them, one cannot argue on ravShach & the satmerer Rov.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 12:05 PM Anonymous Says:
“ you must be smoking something funny. before the organ is used the donor as well as the recipient are thoroughly tested. the $$$ does not it any way change the success of the procedure. ”
The donor and the recipient can only be assured of proper testing and care when the procedures are regulated and legal. In the black market, there is often zero regulation. Anyone who feels slightly confident with a scalpel can harvest an organ in his own living room and leave the donor for dead. No one will ask where the organ came from because this is, after all, the black market! No authorities to answer to!
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Jul 27, 2009 at 03:00 PM Shlomo Says:
“ Judism is one , There is no room for compromise, if a baal Tshuve can't accept judism as it is, please don't change or compromise it to atract him.
Rav Scach & the Satmarer Rav were not for this type of getting people to do tshuva, do tshuva yourself & let them come on their own.[how it goes: If a Yid will answer Omein In Lita, another yid will be Shomer shabboss in Paris]
I guess if you have to alter Judism to atract them, one cannot argue on ravShach & the satmerer Rov. ”
Have you fallen on your head?? Where does Rabbi Greenman or anybody in the kiruv movement alter yiddishkeit to attract fellow yidden? What have you been drinking? Saying things as they are, stealing, laundering money, etc. IS WRONG!!! There is no excuse!!! No matter how good the intentions. Chas V'sholom to alter the religion to attract baalei teshuva, and a BIG CHAS V'SHOLOM to alter yiddishkeit by committing crimes of great proportions and thus turning our fellow yidden away. And by the way, you are so very wrong about your comments on Rav Shach ZT"L. Rav Shach Zichrono Livrocho was in Aish HaTorah 31 years ago for the bris of Yehuda Weinberg (The son of Rabbi Noach Weinberg of blessed memory), who currently heads Aish HaTorah following in his father's footsteps. Rav Shach looked around at the Oilam and asked R' Noach pointing to different people in attendance, "Er iz a Baal Teshuva?" He kept on asking the same question over and over again, amazed at how these people resembled Bnei Torah of epic proportions. He then made a profound statement for all to hear, stating that if ONE MAN can destroy 6 million people (referring to Hitler Ymch"sh), can you imagine what what ONE MAN can build? He held it was a Choiv Kodosh for all of Acheinu Bnei Yisroel to get involved in Kiruv Rechokim. R' Noach Weinbeg ZT"L didn't make a decision without consulting with Rav Shach ZT"L. When R' Noach would enter Rav Shach's apartment to consult with him, Rav Shach B'chvodo U'vatzmo would get up, walk into the kitchen and bring out an apple or something to drink for R' Noach. Rav Shach said, "Aza heilige yid darf men mechabed zein!!" So please, get your facts straight before you mouth off and alter yiddishkeit which is so sacred to us all.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 03:14 PM midwesterner Says:
“ I have never posted before but i feel the ignorance of this article requires a response. The fact is for a average frum family of 7 children to live a simple life style costs between 150k-200k whether they earn that money or someone else earns it for them (e.g.. if they are not paying full tuition someone else is carrying their load or if they are getting govt assistance that is still money being spent on their behalf) I am figuring 6 kids in yeshiva at 6k per kid =36k , 2,500/mo rent or mortgage=30k 500/wk for food=26k 15k/yr health insurance, summer camp/day camp for say six of the kids at 1,500 per kid = 9k house cleaning help 200/wk =10,500k clothing for entire family/yr 12k total car expense(cost to buy/lease insurance,gas maintenance) 5k life insurance& homeowners insurance 4k, Heat,water electric 7k/yr, 17k masser tzdakah - we have a total of over 170k NET !!! which means one would have to gross a lot more then that and the numbers I used were very conservative - no money on babysitting, no vacations, etc. no one can accuse these numbers of 'Living up to the Jone's" the fact is the pressure on frum breadwinners is huge - al pi derech hateva how is someone who was not college educated is not a doctor, lawyer or other professional and is not business minded supposed to support his family ? I am not condoning criminal behavior in any way shape or form my point is only that the same way people who may not be 100% technically entitled to govt assistance might take it anyway not because they are trying to live up to the Jones but they are simply trying to survive - i respectfully ask anyone who has a solution to this problem which nobody seems to discuss or talk about to please post a reply. ”
Anonymous 19 is correct, although he has admittedly underestimated the true expenses to keep a frum family going. Where do you get tuition for any Jewish school at $6K?? Forget about it; this is a gelechter. With children in various day schools, yeshivas, and seminaries around the US and Israel, my tuition bill is just over $80K, and although highly compensated (by IRS standards!) and after many years of higher secular education, I am no g'vir, and it is a challenge to pay the bills. While the author's stance on living less by goshmias is laudable, even with a frugal lifestyle, few large frum families can make it in any large city today in the US without some kind of help, either from their parents, or with enormous breaks like scholarships from the schools, which the full-tuition parents and outside donors cover. I am also not condoning genava in any way, but the issue of how to keep our communities viable in the face of such unrelenting economic pressure is in my opinion one of the major issues we face today. Perhaps such disgraceful chilul hashem as seen this past erev shabbos will lead to more thought about solutions.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 03:46 PM Anonymous Says:
I wish someone would please point out that alot of this laundering had nothing to do with greed in regard to the launderers as many were funding Gemachs and moisdos. Not there own pockets. I am not condoning but it does change peoples attitudes towards what was done.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 03:52 PM Anonymous Says:
“ “in the cases of money laundering, it wasn't about selfish needs, it was about making money for the mosdos to be able to pay their bills,
For the 100th time...it was illegal...call it whatever you want. These vile people broke the law and validated every antisemitic stereotype about yiddin controlling the financial world". It would have been much better had they taken a gun and robbed a bank...This is much worse in the long term. ”
VILE??? is a very strong word for what they've done. I hope you cross your "t"s and dot your "i"s real well on your tax returns. By the way how hold were you when you starting paying bus fare?
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Jul 27, 2009 at 04:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "If this is what Torah observance is about, then I don't want to be part of it"
This is how I feel as a ba'al teshuva. With the violent demonstrations, the Spinka Rebbe, the cover up of the child molesters, and now this. I really feel disallusioned. ”
Focus on the good instead of the bad. Focus on Hashem. Focus on the incredible chesed of Am Yisroel. If you are sincere in wishing to do Hashem's will you won't feel disillusioned.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 06:11 PM Hishtadlus Says:
“ "If this is what Torah observance is about, then I don't want to be part of it"
This is how I feel as a ba'al teshuva. With the violent demonstrations, the Spinka Rebbe, the cover up of the child molesters, and now this. I really feel disallusioned. ”
From an FFB- I can see why you feel that way. We need changes in our approach to many things (money, shidduchim...) real fast......but I'm not writing off frumkeit, nevertheless. We have many role models with sterling qualities, who would never have been caught dead with any of this.............we just have to find and follow them and not the others.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 07:39 PM Who.do.we.worship Says:
Our first step in curbing improprieties in our midst, is lessening almost worship of “Askanim” which our children see, feel and hear, making children of all ages dream of being an Askan one day. Their awareness that Askanim have the keys to much accomplishment, and have the admiration of the public, has an effect on them. Askanim are NOT Gedolim and Gedolim are NOT Askanim. Ask much of our youth if they’d rather be an Askan or a Gadol, and observe their response. No doubt our treatment of Askanim gets ingrained and, is connected to major decisions in life.
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Jul 27, 2009 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:
>I think that the solution is to move out of NYC, where the Cost of Living is so tremendously high, people should move to other places around the country, there are many places in the US where you can still buy houses for 50k, why not relocate in large numbers and start building schools, businesses, etc.<
while I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, I would say the '50K' you mention is closer to '250K', if not more!
I hate to point a finger at an entire group, but I lived amongst the Sephardim in Brooklyn for many years and the general ostentatiousnes was mind-boggling, like many buying two giant lots to build a HUGE house on. And so many would buy luxery German cars, sometimes even 2-4 per family -- while Holocaust survivors lived all around them.
Sometimes, the proverbial chickens do come home to roost, my friends.