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Wesley Hills , NY - Mail Thieves from Brooklyn Caught in Rockland County

Published on: July 28, 2009 02:42 PM
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Wesley Hills , NY - Some mail thieves are busted in the Wesley Hills section of Ramapo where cops say they caught two men taking mail out of mailboxes with metal cooking tongs. When the car was searched, Detective Lieutenant Brad Widell says they found hundreds of opened letters and checks sorted.

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“I don’t think it was their first night,” said Weidel.

Weidel says the small checks were cashed in Rockland County, but the larger ones were sent to Israel.

“They never even worried about the names on the check. Banks didn’t even necessarily examine whether the checks were made to the particular account holder or not. They just deposited them,” said Weidel.

The two men who are from Brooklyn, now face a whole list of charges, including criminal possession of stolen property.

The public is reminded that the above are mere allegations. Defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law.



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1

 Jul 28, 2009 at 01:51 PM Eli W Says:

Oh no, not another chilul hashem, this will only add salt to the injury, I hope a gemach was not involved in this. In my book this type of behavior is worse then money laundering and human part trafficking....

2

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:10 PM Anonymous Says:

why didnt they just take their yarmulkas off??

3

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:08 PM Anonymous Says:

It is time for the Frum community to get up and yell עד מתי???? We got to have these kind of stories stoped!

4

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

It is time for the Frum community to get up and yell עד מתי???? We got to have these kind of stories stoped!

The stories will stop when the misbehavior stops.

5

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:22 PM Anonymous Says:

I am going to vomit.

6

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

It is time for the Frum community to get up and yell עד מתי???? We got to have these kind of stories stoped!

No, it's not he stories that need to be stopped. It's the phonies and ganovim and hypocrites that need to be stopped!!

7

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:18 PM Avrohom Abba Says:

Listen my friends.
We are going to have take these big smacks in the face until we get our act together.
Somewhere it says that "Yisroel ganovim haym," or something like that. Some people use that as an excuse to become thieves and robbers and swindlers. What a baby excuse! How immature and yet evil! Thank G-d the vast majority are not thieves or swindlers or robbers.
Thereare thosewho doit in business,in banking, in stocks, in education, in law, in medicine. We better stop them or our children will suffer from the lousy reputation these bums are spreading about the rest of us.

So, if we know someone who is doing that horrible evil stuff, it is our obligation to stop them. We must tell them to stop endangering our children. Yes, our children, because the non Jews around us are going to grow up, thinking a certain way about US. In twenty years, our children will become "us."

8

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Raboisa I am going to knock on the Bimah in our shul and scream oout with ganovim ,out with gazlonim

9

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:23 PM Dovid Says:

As painful as this is, I comment VIN for reporting this and forcing us to deal with this problem. Hakaras hachait is the first step to teshuva

10

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:30 PM Anonymous Says:

RIBOINOI SHEL OILEM....Have you noticed.......it's the 9 days so he's not shaving his beard RACHMUNE LITZLON.....the 9 days bother him.......the CHILUL HASHEM OF G-D'S name don't bother him at all, WHAT A TWISTED DISTORTED LOGIC

11

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:28 PM Fat Free Kishka Says:

I wait with bated breath for Yair Hoffman's essay blaming this incident on the erosion of the moral standards of the Rockland County police...

-FFK

12

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:27 PM ahavas chinom Says:

nebboch! prabably very poor, or they wouldn't do it.

13

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:27 PM Expatriate Owl Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

It is time for the Frum community to get up and yell עד מתי???? We got to have these kind of stories stoped!

“It is time for the Frum community to get up and yell עד מתי???? We got to have these kind of stories stoped!”


The way to have the stories stopped [with 2 p's] is for us to stop committing the crimes! We should stop accepting ANY behavior that is contrary to the law (American AND Torah).

14

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Did you notice he doesn't shave in the 3 weeks!Sick! Sick! Sick!! ma noimer uma nidaber?

15

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Raboisa I am going to knock on the Bimah in our shul and scream oout with ganovim ,out with gazlonim

All talk and no action.... you talk the talk, but can you walk the walk??

16

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:32 PM Loshon Hora Says:

Bochurim having bein hazmanim fun. Nebach.

17

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:30 PM Anonymous Says:

The mailbox set them up.
Entrapment I tell you, Entrapment!

18

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:30 PM Grammarian Says:

" I comment VIN for reporting this "

- and I comment on your comment

19

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
ahavas chinom Says:

nebboch! prabably very poor, or they wouldn't do it.

Give me a BREAK! The fact is that most poor people don't steal! they would prefer to live in poverty than to be a Goniff & do an aviara.

20

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:04 PM Anonymous Says:

people that steal are not real jews

21

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Give me a BREAK! The fact is that most poor people don't steal! they would prefer to live in poverty than to be a Goniff & do an aviara.

The "fact" is that people that live in poverty are prone to do things they would never do otherwise.

I am not saying that is the case here. And I am not saying that poor ppl steal.

But, before making statements about the saintliness of people - do consider that when people are HUNGRY, they are more likely to get angry, and to behave in ways that are unbecoming.

22

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:

the Gmara says Rov Ganvi Yisroel - (the majority of thievs are jews)

23

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:55 PM Anonymous Says:

#4
Your comment blew my mind.... How profound a statement!!!

24

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:55 PM Rachmani Says:

desperate times call for desperate measures. imagine how these people must be starving nebech to resort to such a petty crime. Hashem Yerachem.

25

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:

what are their names?

26

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:16 PM AuthenticSatmar Says:

Every community will unfortunately have gannovim, and we have had them forever, in every generation. What motivates them is unknown, but I believe that some do it out of desperation, some out of the thrill, and other because they are sick. There is no amount of talking or action that can stop those people.

What is preventable, and our community needs to address is those that do "shtick". In that scenario its not outright stealing, and it's a series of white lies that are told, to get gov't handouts or save on taxes. What is the root cause of the shtick. Most of it is perpetrated by individuals that feel that without those funds they cannot survive adequately. If our rent was affordable ie: in comparison to salaries paid, then we would not need to lie to get section 8. If our food bills were affordable, we wouldn't need to lie for food stamps. If insurance was affordable we wouldn't need to lie about Medicaid. If tuition was affordable we wouldn't need to lie to get vouchers.
Our community needs to step up and tell our employers to pay fair wages and 100% on the books. When we can pay rent with 1 weeks salary, like our parents and grandparents did, we wouldn't need section 8. When employers will pay health insurance we won't need medicaid. When food suppliers will charge fair prices, we won't need to lie about food stamps.
The average secretary/receptionist in the heimishe community make less per hour than our polishe goyotes. After paying for sitters there is little left to survive on.
This cycle needs to end!!!

27

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:54 PM Zindel Says:

Ill just say it again...

Unless this comunitty will take drastic swift changes in our rediculously high life style people will continue to turn to these low methods out of desperation to be able to stay afloat and just follow blindly the "OILEM GOILEM"!!!

28

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:50 PM Anonymous Says:

I am sure that if any “wrong doing” was being perpetrated, it was for good reason, probably to defray the costly expense of yeshiva tuition and other aspects of religious life whose costs are not met by government tax credits or other mechanisms.

Also, the act of taking others’ money and using it for these purposes is a chesed nistar, since probably those whose money was stolen were not current in their ma’aser obligations, so having the money go to tzedakah is a welcome credit to their respective accounts.

Finally, this is all the fault of the oppressors who coerce people to think creatively.

I’ve removed my yarmulke before stepping into a movie so that no one should see me and think that is OK for a frum yid to go to the movie-house. Could someone send out the global message that if you’re going to steal you should at least tuck in the tzitzis and put on a baseball cap?

29

 Jul 28, 2009 at 02:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Where do these guys go to cash the checks?

If i go to my bank and my name is Barry Larkin and the check says Bary Larkin, my bank wont cash it because the names dont match.

30

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:41 PM Hinda Says:

ppl!!! YOU GOTTA BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD. this is what G-d wants from us. In order to make the world a better place, we should make ourselves better. Its a fact, it works. I've tried it, and i continue to do so.
We can prevent tragedies like this one...

31

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I am sure that if any “wrong doing” was being perpetrated, it was for good reason, probably to defray the costly expense of yeshiva tuition and other aspects of religious life whose costs are not met by government tax credits or other mechanisms.

Also, the act of taking others’ money and using it for these purposes is a chesed nistar, since probably those whose money was stolen were not current in their ma’aser obligations, so having the money go to tzedakah is a welcome credit to their respective accounts.

Finally, this is all the fault of the oppressors who coerce people to think creatively.

I’ve removed my yarmulke before stepping into a movie so that no one should see me and think that is OK for a frum yid to go to the movie-house. Could someone send out the global message that if you’re going to steal you should at least tuck in the tzitzis and put on a baseball cap?

why do you assume they are stealing for a "good cause". stealing is wrong!

32

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:36 PM AMEN! Says:

Reply to #26  
AuthenticSatmar Says:

Every community will unfortunately have gannovim, and we have had them forever, in every generation. What motivates them is unknown, but I believe that some do it out of desperation, some out of the thrill, and other because they are sick. There is no amount of talking or action that can stop those people.

What is preventable, and our community needs to address is those that do "shtick". In that scenario its not outright stealing, and it's a series of white lies that are told, to get gov't handouts or save on taxes. What is the root cause of the shtick. Most of it is perpetrated by individuals that feel that without those funds they cannot survive adequately. If our rent was affordable ie: in comparison to salaries paid, then we would not need to lie to get section 8. If our food bills were affordable, we wouldn't need to lie for food stamps. If insurance was affordable we wouldn't need to lie about Medicaid. If tuition was affordable we wouldn't need to lie to get vouchers.
Our community needs to step up and tell our employers to pay fair wages and 100% on the books. When we can pay rent with 1 weeks salary, like our parents and grandparents did, we wouldn't need section 8. When employers will pay health insurance we won't need medicaid. When food suppliers will charge fair prices, we won't need to lie about food stamps.
The average secretary/receptionist in the heimishe community make less per hour than our polishe goyotes. After paying for sitters there is little left to survive on.
This cycle needs to end!!!

AMEN!!! You are 100% correct! Some people will comment that you are still not allowed to steal, well duh! Of course you're not allowed to steal, but with no business education, and everything being so expensive, people feel like they have only one choice, which is bad, but no one is a "malach" (angel).

33

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:36 PM Anonymous Says:

This is another product of the acceptability of crime in our circles! We need another letter from the Agudah telling us that Madoff is not so bad and the pilot (who landed his crippled plane on the Hudson River) is not so good, or that the Markey bill will expose our Mosdos to obliteration, or that Rabbi Glanz is a tzaddik despite his stupid misbehavior, or some chizuk for other criminality. With these jerks playing the leaders no wonder the community can't tell right from wrong anymore.

34

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:30 PM moshe Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

Where do these guys go to cash the checks?

If i go to my bank and my name is Barry Larkin and the check says Bary Larkin, my bank wont cash it because the names dont match.

They probably go to check cashing places who know these crooks not to local banks

35

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:30 PM sam Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

why didnt they just take their yarmulkas off??

keep the yarmulkas on and don't steal

36

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

These guys look like these scnorers that make the rounds every morning with fake letters. I am not shocked & surprised. Everybody knows to watch their wallets when guys like this are hanging around the mikva. It cannot be compared to the story that happened last week with well respected people r'l.

37

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:18 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

Did you notice he doesn't shave in the 3 weeks!Sick! Sick! Sick!! ma noimer uma nidaber?

It's all part of the disguise. In this community and in Brooklyn they would be less noticed this way.

These guys should be taken behind a shed and taught a lesson in honest living.

38

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:52 PM baruch Says:

28, your "logic" is some of the worst I have ever seen. So stealing is okay if indirectly it benefits someone in someway. How would you like it if someone killed your child c"v and argued that it was good because it alleviated you of your poverty. I am tired of frum people twisting logic and truth in order to condone crimes. There was no money laundering because it was entrapment. There was no fraud because it was"diversion". Madoff was a mensch because he didn't moser.
Nevermind that al tignov is in aseres hadivrot!!! Yet this is less important to these o called frum people than whether or not you are walking with an umbrella on shabbos!!

39

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I am sure that if any “wrong doing” was being perpetrated, it was for good reason, probably to defray the costly expense of yeshiva tuition and other aspects of religious life whose costs are not met by government tax credits or other mechanisms.

Also, the act of taking others’ money and using it for these purposes is a chesed nistar, since probably those whose money was stolen were not current in their ma’aser obligations, so having the money go to tzedakah is a welcome credit to their respective accounts.

Finally, this is all the fault of the oppressors who coerce people to think creatively.

I’ve removed my yarmulke before stepping into a movie so that no one should see me and think that is OK for a frum yid to go to the movie-house. Could someone send out the global message that if you’re going to steal you should at least tuck in the tzitzis and put on a baseball cap?

No. 37 - be careful. Not everyone will realize you are being sarcastic.

40

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
ahavas chinom Says:

nebboch! prabably very poor, or they wouldn't do it.

Thieves don't steal because they're poor. They steal because they're thieves.

41

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:54 PM itzik Says:

they also took checks from my mail boxssssss! i cant believe it!
one of them is my neighber and i found out that it was him. too bad i didnt go to the police!

42

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

It is time for the Frum community to get up and yell עד מתי???? We got to have these kind of stories stoped!

why do u assume they were frum . wearing a yarmulka means frum? so if I put on a burka means im an arab?

43

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:51 PM esther Says:

what are we going to do about this?now is the time we need real leaders to tell the community to address this problem and not to blame it on antisemitism.

44

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:01 PM cool masmid Says:

I hope no one is going to compare todays story with the one of late last week. One clear difference at least for me is that whereas the people involved in last week's story in my view are innocent regardless of the outcome,where here these two ganovim are ganovim period- they were caught stealing and thus caused an unjustified chilul Hashem.

45

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
AuthenticSatmar Says:

Every community will unfortunately have gannovim, and we have had them forever, in every generation. What motivates them is unknown, but I believe that some do it out of desperation, some out of the thrill, and other because they are sick. There is no amount of talking or action that can stop those people.

What is preventable, and our community needs to address is those that do "shtick". In that scenario its not outright stealing, and it's a series of white lies that are told, to get gov't handouts or save on taxes. What is the root cause of the shtick. Most of it is perpetrated by individuals that feel that without those funds they cannot survive adequately. If our rent was affordable ie: in comparison to salaries paid, then we would not need to lie to get section 8. If our food bills were affordable, we wouldn't need to lie for food stamps. If insurance was affordable we wouldn't need to lie about Medicaid. If tuition was affordable we wouldn't need to lie to get vouchers.
Our community needs to step up and tell our employers to pay fair wages and 100% on the books. When we can pay rent with 1 weeks salary, like our parents and grandparents did, we wouldn't need section 8. When employers will pay health insurance we won't need medicaid. When food suppliers will charge fair prices, we won't need to lie about food stamps.
The average secretary/receptionist in the heimishe community make less per hour than our polishe goyotes. After paying for sitters there is little left to survive on.
This cycle needs to end!!!

If you want the cycle to end, call for individuals to get an EDUCATION and get non-entry level, menial jobs. Employers are not at fault for individual's POOR choices.

And, if the secretaries are making less than the "goyotes," perhaps they should consider a career change.

Menial pay for menial work.

"I find that the harder I work the more luck I seem to have."
-- Thomas Jefferson

46

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
AMEN! Says:

AMEN!!! You are 100% correct! Some people will comment that you are still not allowed to steal, well duh! Of course you're not allowed to steal, but with no business education, and everything being so expensive, people feel like they have only one choice, which is bad, but no one is a "malach" (angel).

so, what, it's my fault he didn't go to college? I don't have a degree either, but I don't steal.

47

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:46 PM Anonymous Says:

its unfortunate however this is nothing new its been going on for ever the only diffrence is that todays technology age evreything is reported and localized.

48

 Jul 28, 2009 at 03:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I am sure that if any “wrong doing” was being perpetrated, it was for good reason, probably to defray the costly expense of yeshiva tuition and other aspects of religious life whose costs are not met by government tax credits or other mechanisms.

Also, the act of taking others’ money and using it for these purposes is a chesed nistar, since probably those whose money was stolen were not current in their ma’aser obligations, so having the money go to tzedakah is a welcome credit to their respective accounts.

Finally, this is all the fault of the oppressors who coerce people to think creatively.

I’ve removed my yarmulke before stepping into a movie so that no one should see me and think that is OK for a frum yid to go to the movie-house. Could someone send out the global message that if you’re going to steal you should at least tuck in the tzitzis and put on a baseball cap?

I am impressed by your tzidkus of taking off your Yarmulka before walking into a movie theater. You make all of us Chareidim proud.

49

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:08 PM awacs Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

what are their names?

Look at the caption under the photos.

50

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:02 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #24  
Rachmani Says:

desperate times call for desperate measures. imagine how these people must be starving nebech to resort to such a petty crime. Hashem Yerachem.

They don't look like they've missed too many meals to me. These guys aren't poor. They're not in desperate straights. They are just thieves and they steal because that's what thieves do. At least they're outright ganovim without trying to paper it over with claims that the money goes to mosdos or to tzedakah, or hachnosas calah, etc.. They may be crooks but they're not hypocrites. Dos is aichet a madregah.

51

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
cool masmid Says:

I hope no one is going to compare todays story with the one of late last week. One clear difference at least for me is that whereas the people involved in last week's story in my view are innocent regardless of the outcome,where here these two ganovim are ganovim period- they were caught stealing and thus caused an unjustified chilul Hashem.

why are they innocent regardless? If they committed the crimes they are accused of, they are not innocent.

52

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:12 PM Menachm B. Says:

This site's admonishment at the end of this story (and in prior stories involving Dweck et al) that "Defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law" is true, but has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not visitors to this site may asume that those accused of a crime committed the crime. The presumption of innocence is a rule that applies only in a courtroom where the government is trying to obtain a criminal conviction. The presumption of innocence simply means that a person cannot be convicted of a crime unless the government proves that the accused committed the crime (as opposed to the accused having to prove that he did not commit the crime). The presumption of innocence does not mean that prior to a conviction, I, as a member of the public, must assume that someone accused of a crime did not commit the crime. The only "rule" that I am aware of that addresses that issue is the Torah rule of "hevay dan kol adam lekaf zichus." Whether that rule applies in the instance of the accused mail thieves or any other accused I will leave to the experts to decide.

53

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:19 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

so, what, it's my fault he didn't go to college? I don't have a degree either, but I don't steal.

One does not have to go to college to be educated enough to get a good job. One can learn a skill and get certified in various things within short periods of time. This is especially true in the IT world. We do have a problem in our yeshivos that children come out with the literacy level of a typical American 5th grader and expect to find a job paying 6-figures. For those bochurim who will not become rebbaim in yeshivos or shuls, they need a real education, but nobody seems to be guiding them in that direction. Crime should never be the acceptable answer to a "money problem".

54

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:18 PM Anonymous Says:

All meshulachim will now suffer. People are giving less bec. of the economy and now will associate Israeli's with these thieves. I for one will give tzedaka to organizations and not when I am approached.

55

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Menachm B. Says:

This site's admonishment at the end of this story (and in prior stories involving Dweck et al) that "Defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law" is true, but has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not visitors to this site may asume that those accused of a crime committed the crime. The presumption of innocence is a rule that applies only in a courtroom where the government is trying to obtain a criminal conviction. The presumption of innocence simply means that a person cannot be convicted of a crime unless the government proves that the accused committed the crime (as opposed to the accused having to prove that he did not commit the crime). The presumption of innocence does not mean that prior to a conviction, I, as a member of the public, must assume that someone accused of a crime did not commit the crime. The only "rule" that I am aware of that addresses that issue is the Torah rule of "hevay dan kol adam lekaf zichus." Whether that rule applies in the instance of the accused mail thieves or any other accused I will leave to the experts to decide.

The government puts the admonishment on all press releases concerning arrests and indictments. You are free to assume what you wish. Most criminal defendants do get convicted, but that is not always the case and we know that there have been wrongful convictions, particularly where the conviction is based on eye witness testimony or identification which is surprisingly unreliable, so it is a good idea to keep an open mind. I'll grant you that tongs in a u.s. mailbox and piles of other people's checks and mail in your car certainly sounds incriminating.

56

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

Where do these guys go to cash the checks?

If i go to my bank and my name is Barry Larkin and the check says Bary Larkin, my bank wont cash it because the names dont match.

do you still play for Cinicinatti?

57

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:40 PM Anonymous Says:

@#22 the Gmara says Rov Ganvi Yisroel - (the majority of thievs are jews)

The gemara says no such thing. It says that if rov of the people are jews then rov ganvi yisroel.

58

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

why do you assume they are stealing for a "good cause". stealing is wrong!

Please explain this to me: It is ok for a Jew to steal, but not with his yarmukle on? And you are NOT supposed to go to the movies, but you can in a baseball hat? What? God is your judge, and will judge you no matter what you are wearing.These men will be judged, and ,Im sure God will not care what they were wearing. Also, just like how some in your religion are not supposed to use man made items on certain days.......how is it not a sin when you have people turn your tv's on for you and such? Please answer as these are genuine questions. Thank you.

59

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

The "fact" is that people that live in poverty are prone to do things they would never do otherwise.

I am not saying that is the case here. And I am not saying that poor ppl steal.

But, before making statements about the saintliness of people - do consider that when people are HUNGRY, they are more likely to get angry, and to behave in ways that are unbecoming.

This is not stealing bread from the local store to feed your kids, this is stealing big time out of peoples mailboxes as a career. very sad.

60

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

All meshulachim will now suffer. People are giving less bec. of the economy and now will associate Israeli's with these thieves. I for one will give tzedaka to organizations and not when I am approached.

And you have so much faith in our organizations? I would much rather give to an individual that needs money for himself. Will I get taken for a ride once in a while? Sure. But that is the greatest Mitzvah and this is one place where I certainly would apply "innocent until proven guilty" (I would not apply it a liberally as some on this site do, however).

61

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:16 PM formally Says:

I have said this before every type of people Jew no Jews have bad apples this will not change. The real problem is how communities deal with this issue.

In many frum communities, yeshivas someone who went to a movie, reads a secular book like Harry Potter (great books), reading a newspaper gets in more trouble than in caught stealing and or other type of white collar crimes.

When I was in Beis Medreish I had my head almost taken off because I brought a NY Post into the Yeshiva's dorm, speeches made that it should not happen again.
Yet at the same time the yeshiva was hiding a rov who the police were looking for, for fraud (later convicted and spend a few years in jail). What is a bocher to think, simple movie no good, stealing ok. Also got in trouble going to a movie and yet the next day wanted me to sign papers (lie) so the yeshiva can get money for offering certain programs that did not exist

Until the frum communities get their priorities straight from above or if a grass root effort from below it won't change.

When the community and robbonin and people will be and show outrage at this actions as they do when someone does not wear a wig, or has a skirt that goes just a little above the knees, music bans (you get the idea) nothing will change.

The community has to change and then change will come to the individual

62

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Wouldn’t it be proper at least in that time to realize, that if any difference appear between two people, (Or Khilos), to solve their difference only by a Beth Din. We want to be they who will be Mekabel A.S.A.P. Mosshiach.

63

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:21 PM yisroel Says:

Reply to 7 what you probly meant Rov Ganvi Yisroel, in any case we need help its very tough out there people have no money to there name and allmost starving so they do crazy things

64

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:20 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

Please explain this to me: It is ok for a Jew to steal, but not with his yarmukle on? And you are NOT supposed to go to the movies, but you can in a baseball hat? What? God is your judge, and will judge you no matter what you are wearing.These men will be judged, and ,Im sure God will not care what they were wearing. Also, just like how some in your religion are not supposed to use man made items on certain days.......how is it not a sin when you have people turn your tv's on for you and such? Please answer as these are genuine questions. Thank you.

It is not ok for a Jew to steal. It is not ok for a Jew to go to movies that show improper things.

If the person does the sin as a very visible Jew, he has added the crime of desecration of G-d's name to the sin of stealing and going to the movies.

If a person can't control himself (it's no excuse in actual fact) he should at least not besmirch the Jewish people by making it look like this is normal Jewish behavior.

Jews are not allowed to violate the Sabbath by using certain devices on Saturday. However, under pressing circumstances it is permissible to have these items activated by someone who is not Jewish that does not need to follow Jewish law.

Turning on TV's for Saturday is a very serious sin if done directly by a Jew but having it turned on is a lesser sin but not right also. However, having a non Jew cook for a person that is very sick removes from the Jew the sin of violating the Sabbath and gives the non Jew the merit of having helped someone in need.

65

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:19 PM Anonymous Says:

everything from maddoff thru this is a complete setup, and very soon Obama is going to announce Girush America - 2009,

66

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

Please explain this to me: It is ok for a Jew to steal, but not with his yarmukle on? And you are NOT supposed to go to the movies, but you can in a baseball hat? What? God is your judge, and will judge you no matter what you are wearing.These men will be judged, and ,Im sure God will not care what they were wearing. Also, just like how some in your religion are not supposed to use man made items on certain days.......how is it not a sin when you have people turn your tv's on for you and such? Please answer as these are genuine questions. Thank you.

he meant to say: "if you step on religion by stealing, please take off your yarmulke, so everyone will know you're not religious, don't try to fool anybody by wearing a cap", very simple.

67

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

the Gmara says Rov Ganvi Yisroel - (the majority of thievs are jews)

seyag lechachma shtika!

68

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:25 PM moshe Says:

Reply to #52  
Menachm B. Says:

This site's admonishment at the end of this story (and in prior stories involving Dweck et al) that "Defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law" is true, but has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not visitors to this site may asume that those accused of a crime committed the crime. The presumption of innocence is a rule that applies only in a courtroom where the government is trying to obtain a criminal conviction. The presumption of innocence simply means that a person cannot be convicted of a crime unless the government proves that the accused committed the crime (as opposed to the accused having to prove that he did not commit the crime). The presumption of innocence does not mean that prior to a conviction, I, as a member of the public, must assume that someone accused of a crime did not commit the crime. The only "rule" that I am aware of that addresses that issue is the Torah rule of "hevay dan kol adam lekaf zichus." Whether that rule applies in the instance of the accused mail thieves or any other accused I will leave to the experts to decide.

you know your right. Maybe thay were actualy delivering checks to these mailboxes not actualy taking the checks. sort of like santa claus

69

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:

There is profound proof that these men stole. Jewish or not they are human and God created us with such thoughts, it is our duty to learn from this and don't steal.

70

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
moshe Says:

you know your right. Maybe thay were actualy delivering checks to these mailboxes not actualy taking the checks. sort of like santa claus

Or how about like Robin Hood?

71

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:06 PM zeidey green Says:

Reply to #13  
Expatriate Owl Says:

“It is time for the Frum community to get up and yell עד מתי???? We got to have these kind of stories stoped!”


The way to have the stories stopped [with 2 p's] is for us to stop committing the crimes! We should stop accepting ANY behavior that is contrary to the law (American AND Torah).

אידעל'ך שרייט'ס: עד מתי!!!!

72

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:58 PM cool masmid Says:

Reply to #51  
Anonymous Says:

why are they innocent regardless? If they committed the crimes they are accused of, they are not innocent.

Because if you look into who these people are that got caught up in this whole episode and you look at all the circumstances surrounding this story then you'll come to the conclusion as many have that these people are innocent.

73

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:27 PM Dvorah Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

people that steal are not real jews

I was thinking the same thing. It is possible that they "dressed
up" so they wouldn't attract attention in the community. A lesson that we should be alert everywhere when we see someone
that just doesn't :smell right."

74

 Jul 28, 2009 at 05:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

what are their names?

Click on thepicture to enlarge it. The names are under the picture.

75

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
cool masmid Says:

Because if you look into who these people are that got caught up in this whole episode and you look at all the circumstances surrounding this story then you'll come to the conclusion as many have that these people are innocent.

They stole from others. They are most certainly not innocent. There is no excuse for stealing, no circumstances that mitigate it.

76

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:25 PM formally Says:

Reply to #38  
baruch Says:

28, your "logic" is some of the worst I have ever seen. So stealing is okay if indirectly it benefits someone in someway. How would you like it if someone killed your child c"v and argued that it was good because it alleviated you of your poverty. I am tired of frum people twisting logic and truth in order to condone crimes. There was no money laundering because it was entrapment. There was no fraud because it was"diversion". Madoff was a mensch because he didn't moser.
Nevermind that al tignov is in aseres hadivrot!!! Yet this is less important to these o called frum people than whether or not you are walking with an umbrella on shabbos!!

How would you like it if someone killed your child c"v and argued that it was good because it alleviated you of your poverty. or quickly remove as many organs as one can to save many lives.

Also, the Gemura clearly states a Miztva abu Avara is not a miztva at all. If I steaf your esrog I can do all the moves up down sideways it does not count. I assume then the same would apply if I stole money to buy a esrog or stole money so someone can learn Torah

77

 Jul 28, 2009 at 04:16 PM AMEN! Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I am sure that if any “wrong doing” was being perpetrated, it was for good reason, probably to defray the costly expense of yeshiva tuition and other aspects of religious life whose costs are not met by government tax credits or other mechanisms.

Also, the act of taking others’ money and using it for these purposes is a chesed nistar, since probably those whose money was stolen were not current in their ma’aser obligations, so having the money go to tzedakah is a welcome credit to their respective accounts.

Finally, this is all the fault of the oppressors who coerce people to think creatively.

I’ve removed my yarmulke before stepping into a movie so that no one should see me and think that is OK for a frum yid to go to the movie-house. Could someone send out the global message that if you’re going to steal you should at least tuck in the tzitzis and put on a baseball cap?

Dude, on the contrary, the world should know that Jewish people are not perfect either and yes some of them steal too, the purpose of life is to improve ourselves constantly, we all make mistakes. If you tuck in your tzitzis you're fooling yourself, instead just go and behave like a mentch, you will make a big kidhis hashem.

78

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:50 PM Yonason Wolff Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

I am impressed by your tzidkus of taking off your Yarmulka before walking into a movie theater. You make all of us Chareidim proud.

Read 28 again - it was wry, sarcastic, black humor, and not to be taken literally.

79

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:02 PM שכנים Says:

הם גנבו גם אצלינו. E new York.

80

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
AuthenticSatmar Says:

Every community will unfortunately have gannovim, and we have had them forever, in every generation. What motivates them is unknown, but I believe that some do it out of desperation, some out of the thrill, and other because they are sick. There is no amount of talking or action that can stop those people.

What is preventable, and our community needs to address is those that do "shtick". In that scenario its not outright stealing, and it's a series of white lies that are told, to get gov't handouts or save on taxes. What is the root cause of the shtick. Most of it is perpetrated by individuals that feel that without those funds they cannot survive adequately. If our rent was affordable ie: in comparison to salaries paid, then we would not need to lie to get section 8. If our food bills were affordable, we wouldn't need to lie for food stamps. If insurance was affordable we wouldn't need to lie about Medicaid. If tuition was affordable we wouldn't need to lie to get vouchers.
Our community needs to step up and tell our employers to pay fair wages and 100% on the books. When we can pay rent with 1 weeks salary, like our parents and grandparents did, we wouldn't need section 8. When employers will pay health insurance we won't need medicaid. When food suppliers will charge fair prices, we won't need to lie about food stamps.
The average secretary/receptionist in the heimishe community make less per hour than our polishe goyotes. After paying for sitters there is little left to survive on.
This cycle needs to end!!!

There is no excuse!! The blaming and rationalizing needs to stop. The "greeners" generation knew how to make due without and live within whatever means they had. If it doesn't make "cents" to work then stay home with the children. That is what our grandparents did. Those who genuinely meet the guidelines for assistance will get it and those who are not entitled to it legitimately do not have a right to falsify information to get it. Hashem knows what we need and decides every Rosh Hashanah how much we should have. Everyone needs to do their hishtadlus but money that is obtained illegally won't add to the bottom line. Sadly, the bittochon that permiated the previous generations is what is missing.

81

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:50 PM Blogger Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

RIBOINOI SHEL OILEM....Have you noticed.......it's the 9 days so he's not shaving his beard RACHMUNE LITZLON.....the 9 days bother him.......the CHILUL HASHEM OF G-D'S name don't bother him at all, WHAT A TWISTED DISTORTED LOGIC

you mean he should walk around shaven and explain to people "its just that im a big thief dont mind the shave!" talk about twisted logic

82

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:43 PM MS Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

people that steal are not real jews

Be careful what you say. Stealing also means lying about how old your child is in order to pay less for a ticket to a theme park (or something like that). Everyone should look at themselves and think about what they do before they start bashing others. Stealing is stealing no matter how much it is or from whom. Fix yourself before you fix others.

83

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:41 PM Hanna Says:

This is not about being "frum" or not. this is one of the 10 commandments and 7 noah laws.......

84

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Why is this crime worse than last weeks yeah the pple from last week were wearing a talis kutin? Or because its a shame that they were caught through a mooser? Sorry stealing is stealing according to law and halacha it doesn't say anywhere that a shaina yid is is allowed to steal from the gov

85

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:31 PM nisht yosher Says:

Reply to #26  
AuthenticSatmar Says:

Every community will unfortunately have gannovim, and we have had them forever, in every generation. What motivates them is unknown, but I believe that some do it out of desperation, some out of the thrill, and other because they are sick. There is no amount of talking or action that can stop those people.

What is preventable, and our community needs to address is those that do "shtick". In that scenario its not outright stealing, and it's a series of white lies that are told, to get gov't handouts or save on taxes. What is the root cause of the shtick. Most of it is perpetrated by individuals that feel that without those funds they cannot survive adequately. If our rent was affordable ie: in comparison to salaries paid, then we would not need to lie to get section 8. If our food bills were affordable, we wouldn't need to lie for food stamps. If insurance was affordable we wouldn't need to lie about Medicaid. If tuition was affordable we wouldn't need to lie to get vouchers.
Our community needs to step up and tell our employers to pay fair wages and 100% on the books. When we can pay rent with 1 weeks salary, like our parents and grandparents did, we wouldn't need section 8. When employers will pay health insurance we won't need medicaid. When food suppliers will charge fair prices, we won't need to lie about food stamps.
The average secretary/receptionist in the heimishe community make less per hour than our polishe goyotes. After paying for sitters there is little left to survive on.
This cycle needs to end!!!

You make a valid point. B''H i don't steal or cheat and never would but life is terribly expensive the jewish way. Yes my husband works and so do i full time and on the books. i have a small family but rent is sky high and no i don't get section 8, no medicaid but medical insurance is also tough on the pocket. i need a Babysitter coz i work full time. have no school vouchers and wen i was desperate to move apt i couldn't coz i had no section 8 to help pay the full price, i asked for a reduction as i say from my pocket but i was shown the streets. So wat do you expect. obviously desperate people like this will forge and steal. so all Yidden are responsible for them. lower the rent, don't overprice foods and goods or clothes so we won't get to it.

86

 Jul 28, 2009 at 10:26 PM vin member Says:

No words we really should put locks on our mailboxes!I'm not here 2 judge any1 but just 2 protect ourselves!

87

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

what are their names?

What good would it do to know their names??? There is no need for loson hara!!! If you did not relize tommarow night is tisha bav

88

 Jul 29, 2009 at 02:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

And you have so much faith in our organizations? I would much rather give to an individual that needs money for himself. Will I get taken for a ride once in a while? Sure. But that is the greatest Mitzvah and this is one place where I certainly would apply "innocent until proven guilty" (I would not apply it a liberally as some on this site do, however).

It's actually a bigger mitzvah to give to an organization that gives to the poor, thereby you don't know who got it and he doesn't know where it came from so nobody is beholden to anybody, mah she'ain kain, when you stick it in his hand.

89

 Jul 29, 2009 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I am sure that if any “wrong doing” was being perpetrated, it was for good reason, probably to defray the costly expense of yeshiva tuition and other aspects of religious life whose costs are not met by government tax credits or other mechanisms.

Also, the act of taking others’ money and using it for these purposes is a chesed nistar, since probably those whose money was stolen were not current in their ma’aser obligations, so having the money go to tzedakah is a welcome credit to their respective accounts.

Finally, this is all the fault of the oppressors who coerce people to think creatively.

I’ve removed my yarmulke before stepping into a movie so that no one should see me and think that is OK for a frum yid to go to the movie-house. Could someone send out the global message that if you’re going to steal you should at least tuck in the tzitzis and put on a baseball cap?

I realize that you are being sarcastic (at least I hope so), but I feel the need to let you and everyone else know that they were stealing from local SHULS.
There is absolutely no justification for stealing (from anyone). I am tired of people making excuses, and I realize these excuses are sarcastic but there are some out there that actually believe this.
ENOUGH ALREADY. It is time we take responsibility for ourselves, stop blaming others for our problems and use our skills constructively to solve them.

90

 Jul 29, 2009 at 11:13 AM שכנים Says:

Reply to #79  
שכנים Says:

הם גנבו גם אצלינו. E new York.

אני לא מאמין איך אנחנו האמנו להם שהם לא קשורים לסיפור של הגניבות באיסט ניו יורק רק מאיתנו השכנים הם גנבו למעלה מ50 אלף דולר
אני לא מבין למה לא התלוננו
ואני לא מבין איך ממשיכים לעבוד איתם בתור דריורים

91

 Jul 29, 2009 at 11:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

The "fact" is that people that live in poverty are prone to do things they would never do otherwise.

I am not saying that is the case here. And I am not saying that poor ppl steal.

But, before making statements about the saintliness of people - do consider that when people are HUNGRY, they are more likely to get angry, and to behave in ways that are unbecoming.

You have to ask yourselves why there is so much poverty among the chasidishe/yeshivishe world. We are raising a generation of poorly educated, unemployable illiterate men and women that simply cannot support themselves and their large families. The days of easy money in diamonds, real estate, retail and light manufacturing are OVER. All of us are now competing against ambitious, well educated and driven people from all over the world. Until we raise children that can succeed in this world and create wealth and economic opportunity for themselves and their family we will continue have poverty and the resultant illegal activity we see here.
My previous posts on this matter have not been published by VIN so I suspect that I am hitting a raw nerve somewhere.

92

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