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Monsey, NY - Monsey Couple Charged With Welfare Fraud

Published on: July 28, 2009 07:31 PM
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Monsey, NY - With the frum community reeling from one of the largest disgraces ever endured with its own arrested in a massive FBI sting operation, yet another scandal has emerged.

This one, though, is considerably smaller.  A Monsey couple has been arrested for large-scale public-assistance fraud.

According to the Journal News , a Lower Hudson Valley newspaper, the parents of 12 children pilfered $75,000 from federal rent, Medicaid and food stamp programs from February 2006 until April 2007.  They have been charged with third-degree grand larceny and third-degree welfare fraud, and have been assigned $50,000 bail each. 

The charges carry sentences of 4 2/3 to 14 years in state prison. The couple also could face federal charges.

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The public is reminded that the above are mere allegations. Defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law.


More of today's headlines

New York - A “wake up call” is how a number of ultra-Orthodox Jewish leaders are describing the arrest last week of several New York-area rabbis on federal money... New York City - General Colin Powell today endorsed Mayor Mike Bloomberg’s re-election bid during a taping of Larry King Live that is scheduled to air tonight at 9PM. ...

 

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1

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:54 PM a pushiter yid Says:

with 12 kids kein ein hora u could never have enough money. do u really have to b involved in drugs, fights, murders and not jewish to qualify for public assistence?.

2

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:50 PM midwesterner Says:

There were a total of 44 arrests last week, the majotroty of which were not Jewish. . Not "44 of its own".

3

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:00 PM Basia Says:

I just got back from upstate NY so many towns are begging for people,Homes are being almost givin away,why cant chassidim particuler koller guys go live there? its so nice the weather is like switzerland

4

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Omg! This is too much. I truly hope moshiach is on his way and we will celabrate this coming thursday!

5

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:55 PM Anonymous Says:

who can blame them?...it's not easy to support 12 kids

6

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:

What a rachmunis on those innocent kids!! In this case its not a father that was indicted with swindling charges, its BOTH parents...
May Hashem bring in comfort and simcha to those unfortunate kids...

7

 Jul 28, 2009 at 06:48 PM Anonymous Says:

another chillul hashem. will this ever stop?

8

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

who can blame them?...it's not easy to support 12 kids

if you can't afford 12 kids, stealing from the government is not the solution...

9

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
a pushiter yid Says:

with 12 kids kein ein hora u could never have enough money. do u really have to b involved in drugs, fights, murders and not jewish to qualify for public assistence?.

You need to be deserving of assistance. People who own million dollar homes and have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank do not deserve public assistance.

Nobody made them have 12 kids; If you want that many kids, you should support them!

10

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:17 PM PMO Says:

Sadly, and I mean very sadly... these children will pay the harshest price for their parents' deeds. If there was ever a better example as to why we should be careful to follow the laws of the land, this is it. 12 children who will probably watch their parents spend time in prison is not a risk anyone should be willing to take.

11

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:17 PM Anonymous Says:

I really feel for families trying to support 12 children (I couldn't do it) and hope these allegations are false, but in the end, swindling from the government (which means from your neighbors who are taxpayers) is not doing your children a favor. Again, Rabbis and the community must take some responsibility. Encouraging marrying very young and having as many children as the wife can carry and insisting no one goes to public school, everyone goes to camp, etc. while at the same time discouraging higher education or learning a trade and working full time seems like a recipe for trouble.

12

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:15 PM rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

13

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:06 PM Anonymous Says:

ii am terribly ashamed of this tremendous CHILUL HASHEM . shame on all of them.I

14

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:13 PM mrs boro parker Says:

whichever way you put it, I feel awful for the family - for the parents, and you will never know how financially desperate they were. It would be punishment enough to take away their property and give them a huge fine, to deprive the kids of their parents that would be a huge tragedy

15

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:13 PM mrs boro parker Says:

whichever way you put it, I feel awful for the family - for the parents, and you will never know how financially desperate they were. It would be punishment enough to take away their property and give them a huge fine, to deprive the kids of their parents that would be a huge tragedy

16

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:11 PM Loshon Hora Says:

Please don't attack Chareidim.
I personally have never taken a program & pay all my taxes, Boruch Hashem I never had to. I am not blessed with 12 children though.
B4 attacking chareidim: The law of the jungle= survival of the fittest.
Look at those who wrote & govern the laws.
British parliament scandle.
USA current Treasury [includes IRS] Minister 120K tax evasion, & he still got the job. Wasn't taken off in hand-cuffs he is in charge of my taxes approved by congrees & president. BTW he isn't a Chareidi he married out of the faith.
He doesn't have 12 children either & makes nice money, he was part of the federal reserve 12 years prior.
Goldman Sachs Bank, was given 11 Billion tax payer money by AIG, the government appointed CEO Liddy was a shareholder in GS.The saga goes on a lot more, but rule of the jungle these guys write the laws & us little guys have to keep them.
The parents of 12 go away in hand-cuffs the fittest become Government Ministers & CEOs.
I don't condone geneiva or fraud at any level, by I also don't condem Chareidim. Bernie Madoff spent 50 years preaching ethics & condeming Chareidim especially Bnei Torah, I suspect the condemming bloggers are much the same, if they open their books UH what we may find.
We are in Bein Hametzorim Vadayin Hasoton Merakeid Beineinu. Vehameivin Yovin Charboi Shelufa Beyodoi.Lo Oleinu.
All those on programs who can't make ends meet are scared. Those who say don't have so many children have Nazi Philosophy, how many could afford them until this crisis, & how many had nisim. Who gave you a right to pasken such chomurdicke Shalot.
I am not blessed with a lot of children, but how much I would love to have a big family, and happy I am that Am Yisroel is growing Kein Yirbu.Hashiveinu Hashem Eilecha Venoshuva, Chadeish Yomeinu kekedem.

17

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:10 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

So you really think that having so many kids and stealing to support them is "fulfilling Hashem's will"? First, there are halachically-permitted means of birth control. Second, even if that was not the case - don't tell me that Hashem would prefer that you steal and make a chillul Hashem rather than use birth control in the first place. And do you mean to suggest that since Hashem blessed them with so many kids, it's "His" fault for not blessing them with adequate income, and He therefore condones fraud and theft? This is plainly absurd.

18

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:07 PM TheMan Says:

The whole system is simply un-sustainable, from property prices, to the price of kosher food, to the cost of tuition etc, as the air in the big cost of living bubble is released, following the government crackdowns on the various tax and benefits loopholes etc, we will all have to get real.

19

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:02 PM just maybe Says:

if its too dificult to keep Shabbos because you cant make ends meet we start bending a little the rules??? and the same for Kashrus???

a Jew does what Hashem tells us to do even when its difficult and Hashem needs to do the rest.

20

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:57 PM One guys opinion Says:

Maybe people should ask a rav before having another child, it’s just as important as asking if not to. This story is the perfect example. if any of this kids go off the derech because they don’t have their parents at home, and history has proven that kids from broken homes are more likely to go off. Then it’s Yotzo Schoroy behefsedoy. To raise a family is not easy, it takes physical and mental strength as well as a financially sound home even for does who live a simple life. People and especially mother are getting weaker and not everyone can handle it. I’m not saying that people should chas vechalom decide for themselves but a rav is someone with a das torah and can evaluate the situation. A rav is not only for when you need a heter, a rav is a walking breathing torah where we should turn to for every move we do in our lives.

21

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:25 PM Anonymous Says:

i am shocked at how many people are making shame on them with out knowing what realy happend. if it is not true these people will not write appolagies.
dont judge others and dont sign piskei dinim on others.
moshiach were are you

22

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

Hashems will is to have as many children as He permits you to have. that is not to say that you may not go to your rav and ask for a hetter for some type of birth control if you feel that you need it. Hashem will provide you with a way to provide for your family. you just have to be smart enough to see it and to grasp it. perhaps that means taking on an extra job, or getting some higher education, or working a few more hours. whatever it is, the opportunity to provide WILL be presented.
this reminds me of a story my teachers used to tell us in high school. there was a man who was trapped on his roof during a big storm. someone drove by and asked him if he wanted to come along to a safer place. the man replied that it was ok, he was waiting for G-d to save him. A little while later, the water got higher and someone came by in a boat and offered to help the man off his roof. again he replied that he was waiting for G-d. finally the water got so high that he could only be rescued by helicopter. when it came, the man again refused assistance, saying G-d would rescue him. finally it was too late, and the man died. when he got to heaven, he was very upset. he asked G-d, "how could you not save me? i was waiting for you!" G-d replied "i DID try to save you- I sent a car and a boat and a helicopter. YOU were just to busy to see that it was I who sent these things to help you."
sometimes we get so caught up in our lives that we forget that we just have to look for Hashem. He is always there, ready to help us. if a couple has 12 children, there will be a way to provide for all of them without breaking any laws. the parents just have to do their part in looking.

23

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
just maybe Says:

if its too dificult to keep Shabbos because you cant make ends meet we start bending a little the rules??? and the same for Kashrus???

a Jew does what Hashem tells us to do even when its difficult and Hashem needs to do the rest.

No one is talking about bending Shabbos or Kosher. You don't have to put on a banquet to make Shabbos special. That can be your one meat meal a week. Except for meat, kosher doesn't have to be much more expensive. People can move where housing is less expensive. No one has to go to camp or the Catskills. G-d doesn't tell anyone to live in Brooklyn or go to the country for the summer. The tough one is tuition. If a family can't afford tuition and there isn't enough scholarship money what would the Rav's say -- have fewer children and keep them in Yeshiva or have large families and send them to public school?

24

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Loshon Hora Says:

Please don't attack Chareidim.
I personally have never taken a program & pay all my taxes, Boruch Hashem I never had to. I am not blessed with 12 children though.
B4 attacking chareidim: The law of the jungle= survival of the fittest.
Look at those who wrote & govern the laws.
British parliament scandle.
USA current Treasury [includes IRS] Minister 120K tax evasion, & he still got the job. Wasn't taken off in hand-cuffs he is in charge of my taxes approved by congrees & president. BTW he isn't a Chareidi he married out of the faith.
He doesn't have 12 children either & makes nice money, he was part of the federal reserve 12 years prior.
Goldman Sachs Bank, was given 11 Billion tax payer money by AIG, the government appointed CEO Liddy was a shareholder in GS.The saga goes on a lot more, but rule of the jungle these guys write the laws & us little guys have to keep them.
The parents of 12 go away in hand-cuffs the fittest become Government Ministers & CEOs.
I don't condone geneiva or fraud at any level, by I also don't condem Chareidim. Bernie Madoff spent 50 years preaching ethics & condeming Chareidim especially Bnei Torah, I suspect the condemming bloggers are much the same, if they open their books UH what we may find.
We are in Bein Hametzorim Vadayin Hasoton Merakeid Beineinu. Vehameivin Yovin Charboi Shelufa Beyodoi.Lo Oleinu.
All those on programs who can't make ends meet are scared. Those who say don't have so many children have Nazi Philosophy, how many could afford them until this crisis, & how many had nisim. Who gave you a right to pasken such chomurdicke Shalot.
I am not blessed with a lot of children, but how much I would love to have a big family, and happy I am that Am Yisroel is growing Kein Yirbu.Hashiveinu Hashem Eilecha Venoshuva, Chadeish Yomeinu kekedem.

Nazi Philosophy? are you insane? is that how you talk about fellow jews? remember, the ends DO NOT justify the means. It seems that a good deal of the responders here, are always justifying in one way or another crimes against the government no matter how big or small. Just remember the aleph- bais starts with aleph. remember the first thing that will be asked of you after 120 years...and that is Asakta bemunah- did you deal honestly.....remember also chillul hashem is by far the worst aveira that nothing is mechaper for......if having twelve kids means you will cause chillul hashem beacuse you will need to engage in fraud, then what do you think......keep it simple and follow the order

25

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:19 PM Anonymous Says:

is it a mitzvah to have 12 kids if you cant afford them?

26

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:00 PM joel Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

If only all people wouyld think like you, unfortunatly people think having kids has to do with income

27

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:48 PM Anonymous Says:

and if they're not blessed with parnassah it's ok to steal from the government?

28

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

i am shocked at how many people are making shame on them with out knowing what realy happend. if it is not true these people will not write appolagies.
dont judge others and dont sign piskei dinim on others.
moshiach were are you

You are correct look at the comments about the shiva of rabbi dwek and a day after vin reported the story was bloney

29

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:46 PM Suffering parents Says:

raboisa its time that political leaders and the goverment to step in and help the poor religous jews with big families. If you add up the cost of sending the kids to yeshiva ,the cost of food, the cost of housing,ect. you have to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just to float. Raboisa let the emes be said,a religous jew aves the goverment alot of money by not sending his kids to public school, (goverment spending per kid a year is over $33,000 a year thats almost $3000 a month for each kid. so the misky family that got arrested saved the goverment almost $400,000 a year,So my question is why shoudnt the goverment chip in ? even $5000 a year per child will help,,Jewish leaders wake up ,with economic crises,people loosing jobs,its getting worse by the day .somthing has to be done.

30

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

it is very nice to naively expect to have that many kids and expect a miracle.the world runs kderech hateva and that includes to be responsible. not everyone is able to cope with a dozen or more kids.its about time people came to their senses ....

31

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:45 PM formally Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

lets assume that is the case, so then it ok to cheat the government lie and commit fraud I don't get it. So to do a Mitzva are you saying you can commit an avara

32

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:45 PM have you read the article? Says:

12 kids or 24 kids, they own a house worth 1.5 million dollars, they do not need section 8, and did not have to lie and say they are tennants, when in fact they are owners. this is embarrasing, and humiliating. when with the fraud end??

33

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:43 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

So you really think that having so many kids and stealing to support them is "fulfilling Hashem's will"? First, there are halachically-permitted means of birth control. Second, even if that was not the case - don't tell me that Hashem would prefer that you steal and make a chillul Hashem rather than use birth control in the first place. And do you mean to suggest that since Hashem blessed them with so many kids, it's "His" fault for not blessing them with adequate income, and He therefore condones fraud and theft? This is plainly absurd.

34

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

who can blame them?...it's not easy to support 12 kids

This is the type of post that I would really hope that VIN moderators would take down. The poster, whether joking or not, is saying that its ok for Yidden to break the law because they have so many children. I think the majority of readers would agree, if you cannot afford to feed and take care of 12 kids, keep your pants on and don't have that many kids. "Need" is not an excuse the steal from the government.

35

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:36 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

They Torah was given to live with it, not to die with is, if having 12 children would choke you to the extent, that you need to steal from the government, it is better not to have that many children. ( vchai boham yal yumies boham)

36

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:33 PM Anonymous Says:

VIN I think it is irresponsible to edit the original article and not let everyone know that these criminlas were worth milions of dollars

37

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:33 PM yeshiva man Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

who can blame them?...it's not easy to support 12 kids

if you read the article it says they have a few million dollars in real estate plus lots of $$$ in the bank what on earth does 12 kids have to do with anything youre just lazy and want to take life easy and want to justify it by blaming all problems in the chareidi world on what makes you feel guilty

38

 Jul 28, 2009 at 09:04 PM Babishka Says:

Some birth control methods are allowed if the mother's health is endangered, but not for financial reasons. How can you say poseach es yadecha u'masbia l'chol chai rotzon if you don't believe it?

39

 Jul 28, 2009 at 09:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
have you read the article? Says:

12 kids or 24 kids, they own a house worth 1.5 million dollars, they do not need section 8, and did not have to lie and say they are tennants, when in fact they are owners. this is embarrasing, and humiliating. when with the fraud end??

The house might be worth 1.5 million, but it might be mortgaged to the hilt. That's not a justification -- but we should get all the facts.

40

 Jul 28, 2009 at 09:02 PM Anonymous Says:

I choose to withhold judgement until all of the facts come out. Just because the government announces a crime does not mean that it's true. Remember, the people who make these arrests have more to gain than the so called criminals.
I think if you looked for a definition of them in the dictionary you might find them under Parasites.

41

 Jul 28, 2009 at 08:59 PM HS Teacher Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

Hashems will is to have as many children as He permits you to have. that is not to say that you may not go to your rav and ask for a hetter for some type of birth control if you feel that you need it. Hashem will provide you with a way to provide for your family. you just have to be smart enough to see it and to grasp it. perhaps that means taking on an extra job, or getting some higher education, or working a few more hours. whatever it is, the opportunity to provide WILL be presented.
this reminds me of a story my teachers used to tell us in high school. there was a man who was trapped on his roof during a big storm. someone drove by and asked him if he wanted to come along to a safer place. the man replied that it was ok, he was waiting for G-d to save him. A little while later, the water got higher and someone came by in a boat and offered to help the man off his roof. again he replied that he was waiting for G-d. finally the water got so high that he could only be rescued by helicopter. when it came, the man again refused assistance, saying G-d would rescue him. finally it was too late, and the man died. when he got to heaven, he was very upset. he asked G-d, "how could you not save me? i was waiting for you!" G-d replied "i DID try to save you- I sent a car and a boat and a helicopter. YOU were just to busy to see that it was I who sent these things to help you."
sometimes we get so caught up in our lives that we forget that we just have to look for Hashem. He is always there, ready to help us. if a couple has 12 children, there will be a way to provide for all of them without breaking any laws. the parents just have to do their part in looking.

I totally agree with you well said! btw I am writing down the moshul and will repeat it to my students. Very powerful message!

42

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:32 PM MKI Says:

Reply to #3  
Basia Says:

I just got back from upstate NY so many towns are begging for people,Homes are being almost givin away,why cant chassidim particuler koller guys go live there? its so nice the weather is like switzerland

what towns in NY State? Maybe I will go there. Info, please.

43

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

Parnassa does not come from god. It comes from hard work, not stealing!!!

there are ways to prevent having so many children- if a couple chooses to ignore that fact, how is stealing a solution? since when is peru urvu more important than lo t'gnov?

44

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:30 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #10  
PMO Says:

Sadly, and I mean very sadly... these children will pay the harshest price for their parents' deeds. If there was ever a better example as to why we should be careful to follow the laws of the land, this is it. 12 children who will probably watch their parents spend time in prison is not a risk anyone should be willing to take.

Hopefully, they will plead out the case, otherwise your correct.

45

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:25 PM Anonymous Says:

why would anyone want 12 kids. I got 2 kids and I am ready to call it quits. My only regret is I will have to indirectly support all those who decide to have 12 kids and say "Hashem will provide". I don't mind if Hashem provides but please don't ask me to.

46

 Jul 28, 2009 at 07:24 PM formally Says:

Reply to #1  
a pushiter yid Says:

with 12 kids kein ein hora u could never have enough money. do u really have to b involved in drugs, fights, murders and not jewish to qualify for public assistence?.

Still think there are deseving

I deleted the names - received Section 8 rent subsidies vouchers after falsely stating they were tenants in their 4,000-square-foot house at 73 W. Maple Ave. appraised at $1.4 million during a mortgage refinancing in 2007, District Attorney Thomas Zugibe said.

The couple transferred ownership of the house to several holding companies and applied for Section 8 rent vouchers, which are reserved for low-income tenants, Zugibe said.

Zugibe said the investigation found that the couple also provided false information to government agencies for welfare benefits. They are accused of failing to report multiple bank accounts containing hundreds of thousands of dollars and upstate property in Rockland and Sullivan counties worth several million dollars, Zugibe said.

47

 Jul 28, 2009 at 09:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Suffering parents Says:

raboisa its time that political leaders and the goverment to step in and help the poor religous jews with big families. If you add up the cost of sending the kids to yeshiva ,the cost of food, the cost of housing,ect. you have to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just to float. Raboisa let the emes be said,a religous jew aves the goverment alot of money by not sending his kids to public school, (goverment spending per kid a year is over $33,000 a year thats almost $3000 a month for each kid. so the misky family that got arrested saved the goverment almost $400,000 a year,So my question is why shoudnt the goverment chip in ? even $5000 a year per child will help,,Jewish leaders wake up ,with economic crises,people loosing jobs,its getting worse by the day .somthing has to be done.

The government doesn't spend 33,000/year unless its a special needs child. But, the point is, we have separation of church and state here which has been a very good thing for the jews. But that means that the government is not going to pay to send schools to learn religion and stay segregated.

48

 Jul 28, 2009 at 10:21 PM zalmen Says:

People listen up after after Hitler yemach shemoi destroyed close to 40% of jews, I encourage everyone to have as many kinderlach. i myself have 13 kein yirbo .Its the responsibilty of the leaders and the goverment to come up withan amicable souloution, btw the entire area of upstate NY once you are like 2 hours driving north from NYC is dirt cheap in housing, towns like schnectedy ,troy,utica,rochester,albany,syracus,glen falls are begging for people and houses in most towns are below $100,000

49

 Jul 28, 2009 at 10:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

Hashems will is to have as many children as He permits you to have. that is not to say that you may not go to your rav and ask for a hetter for some type of birth control if you feel that you need it. Hashem will provide you with a way to provide for your family. you just have to be smart enough to see it and to grasp it. perhaps that means taking on an extra job, or getting some higher education, or working a few more hours. whatever it is, the opportunity to provide WILL be presented.
this reminds me of a story my teachers used to tell us in high school. there was a man who was trapped on his roof during a big storm. someone drove by and asked him if he wanted to come along to a safer place. the man replied that it was ok, he was waiting for G-d to save him. A little while later, the water got higher and someone came by in a boat and offered to help the man off his roof. again he replied that he was waiting for G-d. finally the water got so high that he could only be rescued by helicopter. when it came, the man again refused assistance, saying G-d would rescue him. finally it was too late, and the man died. when he got to heaven, he was very upset. he asked G-d, "how could you not save me? i was waiting for you!" G-d replied "i DID try to save you- I sent a car and a boat and a helicopter. YOU were just to busy to see that it was I who sent these things to help you."
sometimes we get so caught up in our lives that we forget that we just have to look for Hashem. He is always there, ready to help us. if a couple has 12 children, there will be a way to provide for all of them without breaking any laws. the parents just have to do their part in looking.

How many people on this blog are working 3, 4 jobs and still can't make ends meet!! Plenty!!! Taking on more jobs may not be possible and does not address the issue.

50

 Jul 28, 2009 at 10:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

is it a mitzvah to have 12 kids if you cant afford them?

how many rich people do you know that dont have children yet and are paying thousands of dollars for every try how does that explain if you could or cant afford children???
the amount of children and the amount of money you make is decided by the same
g-d

51

 Jul 28, 2009 at 09:58 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #38  
Babishka Says:

Some birth control methods are allowed if the mother's health is endangered, but not for financial reasons. How can you say poseach es yadecha u'masbia l'chol chai rotzon if you don't believe it?

Well I ask you in return, does committing fraud and theft to support one's family qualify as "believing it"? So which is the better choice, using birth control or stealing and causing massive chillul Hashem? There is only one answer to that question.

52

 Jul 28, 2009 at 09:55 PM formally Says:

Reply to #29  
Suffering parents Says:

raboisa its time that political leaders and the goverment to step in and help the poor religous jews with big families. If you add up the cost of sending the kids to yeshiva ,the cost of food, the cost of housing,ect. you have to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just to float. Raboisa let the emes be said,a religous jew aves the goverment alot of money by not sending his kids to public school, (goverment spending per kid a year is over $33,000 a year thats almost $3000 a month for each kid. so the misky family that got arrested saved the goverment almost $400,000 a year,So my question is why shoudnt the goverment chip in ? even $5000 a year per child will help,,Jewish leaders wake up ,with economic crises,people loosing jobs,its getting worse by the day .somthing has to be done.

The government provides secular education for all, you choose not to use it. Their are many others not just frum Yiddin who send their children to religious school should they steal too.
I am single, I should steal to since I save the government money. I do not use mass transit so a save a few dollars again. What about an old person who stays home and does not use the roads should he ask for a refund. Why should my taxes go to make handicap access to government buildings and buses, I am not handicap. Some do not use city parks. I hope you get the picture

Every person alive in the US can claim one way or another that certain services that the government provides with the taxes that he pays, is of no use to him. You are not unique.

The way it works we all put money in a pot to pay for many government services
some you use need some you don't. Some I use and some I do not. Its a good system and it works. Why should my taxes go to make handicap access to government buildings and buses, I am not handicap

BTW you owe me money since why should I pay for police to block the road when someone gives a safer Torah

53

 Jul 28, 2009 at 09:45 PM Loshon Hora Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

Nazi Philosophy? are you insane? is that how you talk about fellow jews? remember, the ends DO NOT justify the means. It seems that a good deal of the responders here, are always justifying in one way or another crimes against the government no matter how big or small. Just remember the aleph- bais starts with aleph. remember the first thing that will be asked of you after 120 years...and that is Asakta bemunah- did you deal honestly.....remember also chillul hashem is by far the worst aveira that nothing is mechaper for......if having twelve kids means you will cause chillul hashem beacuse you will need to engage in fraud, then what do you think......keep it simple and follow the order

Read my post again. Where am I condoning Geneiva?
I am condemming Yiddishe birth control bloggers. The Nazis also didn't want a lot of Yidden around , that is what I referred to as nazi philosiphy.
You and none of the bloggers [including me] have a right to pasken birth control shaalos based on a blog or media article.

54

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:00 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #53  
Loshon Hora Says:

Read my post again. Where am I condoning Geneiva?
I am condemming Yiddishe birth control bloggers. The Nazis also didn't want a lot of Yidden around , that is what I referred to as nazi philosiphy.
You and none of the bloggers [including me] have a right to pasken birth control shaalos based on a blog or media article.

To compare someone suggesting the use of birth control (in a halachically-acceptable context and form) to a Nazi philosophy is not only vile and tasteless, but simply absurd. You say that none of the bloggers have a right to pasken birth control shaalos based on a media article. Well, I say that none of the bloggers have a right to compare someone to a Nazi for suggesting something that is not only within the confines of halacha in certain contexts, but very possibly recommended in some cases. Get a grip!

55

 Jul 28, 2009 at 10:59 PM a pushiter yid Says:

Reply to #18  
TheMan Says:

The whole system is simply un-sustainable, from property prices, to the price of kosher food, to the cost of tuition etc, as the air in the big cost of living bubble is released, following the government crackdowns on the various tax and benefits loopholes etc, we will all have to get real.

thanks ur so right, any way u look at it, to the fleishiga oig, the system right now is unsustainable, all rabbis from all sects must get together at once and devise a meaningful way of lower cost living for observent jews in terms of food, housing, education and jobs.

56

 Jul 28, 2009 at 10:45 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #48  
zalmen Says:

People listen up after after Hitler yemach shemoi destroyed close to 40% of jews, I encourage everyone to have as many kinderlach. i myself have 13 kein yirbo .Its the responsibilty of the leaders and the goverment to come up withan amicable souloution, btw the entire area of upstate NY once you are like 2 hours driving north from NYC is dirt cheap in housing, towns like schnectedy ,troy,utica,rochester,albany,syracus,glen falls are begging for people and houses in most towns are below $100,000

So you want people to procreate in order to get revenge against Hitler? Why not just do it because it's a Torah commandment? And no, it is not the responsibility of the leaders and the government to support a couple's decision to have many children. It is their own responsibility. Maybe the leaders and the government should change your kids' diapers too?

57

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:04 PM Father of 5, monsey Says:

WHAT'S ALL THIS CHATTER ABOUT! I personally know this family. They are like many of us yes including non Jews - politicians etc who some times fall short of not taking advantage of money being handed out. They do live in a large house but I can testify they are penny less. They fell through with several business deals and are struggling bitterly to make ends meet. I'd be surprised if they're not on the receiving end of the tomchei shabbos list. Are we the people who are supposed to live with "Havei dan as kol adam lkaf zchus?? Should no one of us know what it means 12 kids and hundreds of thousands in debt and having to marry off children.

58

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:32 PM Anonymous Says:

people on this site are constantly discussing if it's k'dai to keep on having so many children if you are not sure you can support them. I was just reading a book of letters from the lubavitcher rebbe that were translated into english (eternal joy) where the Rebbe discusses this issue. I am copying over parts of the letter here, because i thought it really puts things into perspective, especially when the person who said it is a tzaddik who knows a bit better than us:

"One of the strongest objections for...limiting the number of children is fear of the financial inability to support children. Naturally, parents want the best for their children, and fear of being unable to provide adequately is a powerful concern-but based on an assumption that springs from a weakness of faith and presumptuousness. One who fears that he will not be able to provide is assuming that it is completely through his efforts that he succeeds. True, Torah requires that man work to provide for his family. But it is a primary tenet of Judaism that all success comes from G-d, that it is His blessings that give sustenance, not one's own efforts alone. It is G-d who provides for all of His creatures; another mouth will not overburden Him .
But the objections continue. Granted that having children is a fine, even beautiful thin; but at least give people athe choice as to when to have children. However, can people be faulted for delaying their first child until they feel emotionally and financially able, or for wishing to space their children , to have a break between one child and the next?
This argument is seemingly logical and certainly appealing. But while it is an axiom of Judaism that man has free choice, do not confuse this with an unlimited opportunity to choose. A child is not a faucet, to be turned on at will.
No power on earth can guarantee the birth of a baby. That decision,that power, is G-d's alone, the third partner in every child. The possible blessing so disdained earlier, may not be available later.
Take his blessing when He offers them, gratefully, and rest assured that this third Partner is benevolent, all knowing, Who can be trusted to know the best time.
Bluntly: it si presumtous for anyone to see herself as the final authority determining life. Attempts to regulate life based solely on man's limited understanding are foolhardy, and the stakes are too high to risk the unpredictable.
The human body is infinitely intricate. Disrupting its natural functions inevitable causes problems. Family planning, presented as helpful and logical, cuases many of the marital problems so prevalent today.
Children, many children, are the greatest gift and blessing G-d can bestow upon us; do not let imagined obstacles stand in the way of enjoying these blessings."
(Sichos Kodesh 5741, vol. 2, pp. 99-108)

59

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:25 PM effort Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

Parnassa does not come from god. It comes from hard work, not stealing!!!

there are ways to prevent having so many children- if a couple chooses to ignore that fact, how is stealing a solution? since when is peru urvu more important than lo t'gnov?

Parnassa comes from Hashem after you try to do your thing absolutely yes. Other wise you would go sit and do nothing. Hashem wants you to work he really wants your effort and he decides who is successfull and who isn't.

60

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:36 PM Jersey Yid Says:

Anyone who commits tax or welfare fraud is stealing form me an you. Period. They are ganovim. Aside from chillul hashem, they are oiver major issurim. I don't want to pass judgement on these defendants, but I see all the food stamp payers with multiple children in fine matching outfits and designer strollers strlling the avenue in leisure and wonder if they are gonovim also. In fact everyone is looking at them and wondering the same thing. Its pashut, there is no justification for stealing, I wish we could get this message out.

61

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:07 PM Babishka Says:

Reply to #51  
Use Your Head Says:

Well I ask you in return, does committing fraud and theft to support one's family qualify as "believing it"? So which is the better choice, using birth control or stealing and causing massive chillul Hashem? There is only one answer to that question.

I do not condone stealing and other crimes in the name of supporting one's family. Get an education! Get a job! Make yourself a vessel for Hashem's blessing. Do not lump people like me, who have 9 kids but now I'm temporarily unemployed because of the terrible economic situation, desperately trying to make ends meet in an honest way, with people who are criminals. Using birth control to limit the number of children you have makes Margaret Sanger happy in gehinnom, she thought certain classes of poor people who were a burden on society (she meant Yidden) were better off not being born. Is Margaret Sanger your rebbe now?

62

 Jul 29, 2009 at 07:02 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

who can blame them?...it's not easy to support 12 kids

You are right. It is not easy to support 12 children. Maybe they should have thought of that when they started a family.

63

 Jul 29, 2009 at 06:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Father of 5, monsey Says:

WHAT'S ALL THIS CHATTER ABOUT! I personally know this family. They are like many of us yes including non Jews - politicians etc who some times fall short of not taking advantage of money being handed out. They do live in a large house but I can testify they are penny less. They fell through with several business deals and are struggling bitterly to make ends meet. I'd be surprised if they're not on the receiving end of the tomchei shabbos list. Are we the people who are supposed to live with "Havei dan as kol adam lkaf zchus?? Should no one of us know what it means 12 kids and hundreds of thousands in debt and having to marry off children.

Since you mention "having to marry off children" perhaps that is part of the culture that can be changed. No one can make tuitions, rent/mortgage and food costs go away, but the excess cost of "marrying off children" is entirely unnecessary. There should be very simple weddings and none of the dowrys and expected wedding gifts from parents unless the parent truly has the means. People should marry when they can support themselves and be willing to start out living very simply - i.e. small apartment, used furniture while starting out. A wedding shouldn't cost more than a few thousand dollars, and if need be a few hundred. Seeing a child marry should be a joy, not a huge financial stressor. The notion of paying to "marry off children" needs to change.

64

 Jul 29, 2009 at 04:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
effort Says:

Parnassa comes from Hashem after you try to do your thing absolutely yes. Other wise you would go sit and do nothing. Hashem wants you to work he really wants your effort and he decides who is successfull and who isn't.

Hashem helps those who help themselves

65

 Jul 29, 2009 at 12:36 AM Shaul Says:

אידעל'ך שרייט'ס: עד מת

66

 Jul 29, 2009 at 12:10 AM Dave Says:

I don't know if it matters to you or not, but to the extent that tax fraud / welfare fraud / benefits fraud / etc are considered to be "sins against me" (as a taxpayer), you will not have my forgiveness come Yom Kippur.

67

 Jul 28, 2009 at 11:54 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #61  
Babishka Says:

I do not condone stealing and other crimes in the name of supporting one's family. Get an education! Get a job! Make yourself a vessel for Hashem's blessing. Do not lump people like me, who have 9 kids but now I'm temporarily unemployed because of the terrible economic situation, desperately trying to make ends meet in an honest way, with people who are criminals. Using birth control to limit the number of children you have makes Margaret Sanger happy in gehinnom, she thought certain classes of poor people who were a burden on society (she meant Yidden) were better off not being born. Is Margaret Sanger your rebbe now?

May you find a suitable position quickly with Hashem's help. I did not mean to compare your situation to one of a dishonest person, I apologize if I offended you.

68

 Jul 29, 2009 at 07:59 AM אל תדין חבירך Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

ii am terribly ashamed of this tremendous CHILUL HASHEM . shame on all of them.I

Very nice comment erev tisha b'uv when will jews start defending each other instead of blaing and bashing for what they did, if u r jealous do the same or if ur not 100% kosher urslef how about u fill ur mouth with water

69

 Jul 29, 2009 at 08:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

They can, however, be blamed for stealing.

70

 Jul 29, 2009 at 08:23 AM Anonymous Says:

How much money does the government spend taking care of even one child under foster care? Multiply that by twelve and it is probably more money than what the govenment provided with food stamps, etc.

71

 Jul 29, 2009 at 09:07 AM Greenster Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

How much money does the government spend taking care of even one child under foster care? Multiply that by twelve and it is probably more money than what the govenment provided with food stamps, etc.

So what?
Stealing is stealing is stealing is . . .

72

 Jul 29, 2009 at 09:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Dave Says:

I don't know if it matters to you or not, but to the extent that tax fraud / welfare fraud / benefits fraud / etc are considered to be "sins against me" (as a taxpayer), you will not have my forgiveness come Yom Kippur.

Is this how you want Hashem to judge you on Yom Kippur?

73

 Jul 29, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

people on this site are constantly discussing if it's k'dai to keep on having so many children if you are not sure you can support them. I was just reading a book of letters from the lubavitcher rebbe that were translated into english (eternal joy) where the Rebbe discusses this issue. I am copying over parts of the letter here, because i thought it really puts things into perspective, especially when the person who said it is a tzaddik who knows a bit better than us:

"One of the strongest objections for...limiting the number of children is fear of the financial inability to support children. Naturally, parents want the best for their children, and fear of being unable to provide adequately is a powerful concern-but based on an assumption that springs from a weakness of faith and presumptuousness. One who fears that he will not be able to provide is assuming that it is completely through his efforts that he succeeds. True, Torah requires that man work to provide for his family. But it is a primary tenet of Judaism that all success comes from G-d, that it is His blessings that give sustenance, not one's own efforts alone. It is G-d who provides for all of His creatures; another mouth will not overburden Him .
But the objections continue. Granted that having children is a fine, even beautiful thin; but at least give people athe choice as to when to have children. However, can people be faulted for delaying their first child until they feel emotionally and financially able, or for wishing to space their children , to have a break between one child and the next?
This argument is seemingly logical and certainly appealing. But while it is an axiom of Judaism that man has free choice, do not confuse this with an unlimited opportunity to choose. A child is not a faucet, to be turned on at will.
No power on earth can guarantee the birth of a baby. That decision,that power, is G-d's alone, the third partner in every child. The possible blessing so disdained earlier, may not be available later.
Take his blessing when He offers them, gratefully, and rest assured that this third Partner is benevolent, all knowing, Who can be trusted to know the best time.
Bluntly: it si presumtous for anyone to see herself as the final authority determining life. Attempts to regulate life based solely on man's limited understanding are foolhardy, and the stakes are too high to risk the unpredictable.
The human body is infinitely intricate. Disrupting its natural functions inevitable causes problems. Family planning, presented as helpful and logical, cuases many of the marital problems so prevalent today.
Children, many children, are the greatest gift and blessing G-d can bestow upon us; do not let imagined obstacles stand in the way of enjoying these blessings."
(Sichos Kodesh 5741, vol. 2, pp. 99-108)

Thank you so much for sharing the Rebbe's sicho with us. May you be blessed for your efforts in helping us make the right choice.

74

 Jul 29, 2009 at 09:17 AM A Rachmonnes Says:

RABBONIM! MANHIGIM! ADMORIM! We desperately need responsible leaders who will guide the heimishe oilem in leading modest (in financial terms) lives, not living beyond our means. Yes, it is very difficult to live in a community and need to keep up with the same high standards for everyone regardless of their family size, income, basic expenses. This couple is lives typical "erhlich heimish frumm" life that we all aspire to.

However, why the exorbitant expensive Chassunas, sheve brochos, vorts, Bar Mitzvahs. Most expensive baby carrages, children shoes, "matching clothing", SHEITLECH , SHTREIMLECH!, hats, AND of course CARS! Rent is sky high because of the Section 8 that every landlord expects, wagonsfull of food because of Foodstamps.

Not that this particular couple has all of the above, but when you live with a large family in a community that this is the norm, it is very tempting to "nosh"from questionable source.

75

 Jul 29, 2009 at 08:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
אל תדין חבירך Says:

Very nice comment erev tisha b'uv when will jews start defending each other instead of blaing and bashing for what they did, if u r jealous do the same or if ur not 100% kosher urslef how about u fill ur mouth with water

why should we defend criminals?

76

 Jul 29, 2009 at 08:54 AM formally Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

How much money does the government spend taking care of even one child under foster care? Multiply that by twelve and it is probably more money than what the govenment provided with food stamps, etc.

To see if your arguments or excuses for the actions of some members of the frum community are really valid, and their actions are not genava or violate any halacha of bein Adom Lachavara, is very simple. Would you excuse a non Jew who did the exact same actions.?

I could be wrong but if it not a good excuse for a non-Jew if should even more not be used for a Yid.
7-613 think about that

79

 Jul 29, 2009 at 08:49 AM Anonymous Says:

they are rely innocent

80

 Jul 29, 2009 at 08:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Im the last person in the world to defend gneiva h, but I know these people personally and they are the sweetest, nicest, holiest people in the world... I cant imagine that they actually did anything that was mentioned in the article. They dont live a large life, and I know them for years, and I cant imagine that they have any money to spare, let alone millions in real estate... I bet this is moreof the anti-frum macarthy witch hunt

81

 Jul 29, 2009 at 09:32 AM Robert Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

people on this site are constantly discussing if it's k'dai to keep on having so many children if you are not sure you can support them. I was just reading a book of letters from the lubavitcher rebbe that were translated into english (eternal joy) where the Rebbe discusses this issue. I am copying over parts of the letter here, because i thought it really puts things into perspective, especially when the person who said it is a tzaddik who knows a bit better than us:

"One of the strongest objections for...limiting the number of children is fear of the financial inability to support children. Naturally, parents want the best for their children, and fear of being unable to provide adequately is a powerful concern-but based on an assumption that springs from a weakness of faith and presumptuousness. One who fears that he will not be able to provide is assuming that it is completely through his efforts that he succeeds. True, Torah requires that man work to provide for his family. But it is a primary tenet of Judaism that all success comes from G-d, that it is His blessings that give sustenance, not one's own efforts alone. It is G-d who provides for all of His creatures; another mouth will not overburden Him .
But the objections continue. Granted that having children is a fine, even beautiful thin; but at least give people athe choice as to when to have children. However, can people be faulted for delaying their first child until they feel emotionally and financially able, or for wishing to space their children , to have a break between one child and the next?
This argument is seemingly logical and certainly appealing. But while it is an axiom of Judaism that man has free choice, do not confuse this with an unlimited opportunity to choose. A child is not a faucet, to be turned on at will.
No power on earth can guarantee the birth of a baby. That decision,that power, is G-d's alone, the third partner in every child. The possible blessing so disdained earlier, may not be available later.
Take his blessing when He offers them, gratefully, and rest assured that this third Partner is benevolent, all knowing, Who can be trusted to know the best time.
Bluntly: it si presumtous for anyone to see herself as the final authority determining life. Attempts to regulate life based solely on man's limited understanding are foolhardy, and the stakes are too high to risk the unpredictable.
The human body is infinitely intricate. Disrupting its natural functions inevitable causes problems. Family planning, presented as helpful and logical, cuases many of the marital problems so prevalent today.
Children, many children, are the greatest gift and blessing G-d can bestow upon us; do not let imagined obstacles stand in the way of enjoying these blessings."
(Sichos Kodesh 5741, vol. 2, pp. 99-108)

this short paragraph of the rebbe should be published and disseminated to all jews everywhere. the point needs to be hammered and continually reinforced against our godless secular society that pushes the wrong values upon our youth.
thank you for posting it.. it is awesome !!!

82

 Jul 29, 2009 at 09:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

who can blame them?...it's not easy to support 12 kids

that not an excuse

83

 Jul 29, 2009 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:

I personally don't know enough facts of this case to make a comment on these people. However, a few years ago, I was nebach involved in an internal family dispute regarding money that brought out all the ugliness & rancor for the same reasons that many commenters here are citing. I personally know how money can blind people even when they are otherwise normally well adjusted. So wether its chareidi, or litvish or not even frum, when its an inyan of money, the teivah can become too great for most people to overcome due to their own financial pressures.

84

 Jul 29, 2009 at 10:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
a pushiter yid Says:

thanks ur so right, any way u look at it, to the fleishiga oig, the system right now is unsustainable, all rabbis from all sects must get together at once and devise a meaningful way of lower cost living for observent jews in terms of food, housing, education and jobs.

The rabbis don't need to devise a meaningful way of lowering the cost of living for observant jews....

Just use your common sense - the seichal Hashem blessed you with - and you will make choices appropriate to your income - the one Hashem blessed you with.

A lot of things that people deem as necessities are really not. For instance, meat/chicken every day of the week - not a necessity - legumes and other cheaper sources of protein work fine, or for a lot of young couples using public transportation to get around can replace a car - Not for everyone - but for a good number of people, etc.

This is nothing Rabbonim need to devise. In reality there is no reason Rabbonim need to "create" a wedding plan. If you are getting married, if you are old enough and responsible enough to be starting a family of your own, you can be smart and mature enough to realize that a wedding of 10 people at home or in a shul, is as Kosher in the eyes of the Ribbono Shel Olom as a wedding of 250+ at Ateres Chinka or Vizhnitz.

Hashem also never commanded us to buy thousands of dollars of furniture and other "necessities" for each young couple, he also never told us it is mandatory to support them either.

He did say, however, no stealing and kedoshim tehiyu. How is becoming a headline in fraud accomplishin either of those?!

We need to daven, use our God-given sense and live the way HE asked us to live, not the way WE mandated it.

85

 Jul 29, 2009 at 10:33 AM Malki Says:

Reply to #75  
Anonymous Says:

why should we defend criminals?

So we should close up all the courts, and let all the lawyers seek different jobs!

86

 Jul 29, 2009 at 10:31 AM Yankel Jack Says:

Reply to #66  
Dave Says:

I don't know if it matters to you or not, but to the extent that tax fraud / welfare fraud / benefits fraud / etc are considered to be "sins against me" (as a taxpayer), you will not have my forgiveness come Yom Kippur.

But then maybe you will not have the forgivness of Hashem either!!

87

 Jul 29, 2009 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

How many people on this blog are working 3, 4 jobs and still can't make ends meet!! Plenty!!! Taking on more jobs may not be possible and does not address the issue.

i didnt say it was THE solution, i said that PERHAPS it was A solution. i also made other suggestions also, but they were just that- suggestions. im not saying there are not people who cant make ends meet, because i know there are. all im saying is that we have to open our eyes to the opportunities that Hashem places in front of us to help ourselves.

88

 Jul 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Loshon Hora Says:

Please don't attack Chareidim.
I personally have never taken a program & pay all my taxes, Boruch Hashem I never had to. I am not blessed with 12 children though.
B4 attacking chareidim: The law of the jungle= survival of the fittest.
Look at those who wrote & govern the laws.
British parliament scandle.
USA current Treasury [includes IRS] Minister 120K tax evasion, & he still got the job. Wasn't taken off in hand-cuffs he is in charge of my taxes approved by congrees & president. BTW he isn't a Chareidi he married out of the faith.
He doesn't have 12 children either & makes nice money, he was part of the federal reserve 12 years prior.
Goldman Sachs Bank, was given 11 Billion tax payer money by AIG, the government appointed CEO Liddy was a shareholder in GS.The saga goes on a lot more, but rule of the jungle these guys write the laws & us little guys have to keep them.
The parents of 12 go away in hand-cuffs the fittest become Government Ministers & CEOs.
I don't condone geneiva or fraud at any level, by I also don't condem Chareidim. Bernie Madoff spent 50 years preaching ethics & condeming Chareidim especially Bnei Torah, I suspect the condemming bloggers are much the same, if they open their books UH what we may find.
We are in Bein Hametzorim Vadayin Hasoton Merakeid Beineinu. Vehameivin Yovin Charboi Shelufa Beyodoi.Lo Oleinu.
All those on programs who can't make ends meet are scared. Those who say don't have so many children have Nazi Philosophy, how many could afford them until this crisis, & how many had nisim. Who gave you a right to pasken such chomurdicke Shalot.
I am not blessed with a lot of children, but how much I would love to have a big family, and happy I am that Am Yisroel is growing Kein Yirbu.Hashiveinu Hashem Eilecha Venoshuva, Chadeish Yomeinu kekedem.

truer words have not been spoken. Look at the comments here.. on one hand.. if you cant afford 12 kids.. don't have them, on the other hand they are being accused of having millions. Oxymoronic, or a conundrum?
I happen to know the family very well. Unless they won the lottery recently, that I am not aware, this family does not have a pot to P@$$ in, but are one of the most bekuvedika family that I know, If indeed they have all these millions, interesting that they where let out on 50,000 bail. But see how many here pass judgment....

89

 Jul 29, 2009 at 10:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #80  
Anonymous Says:

Im the last person in the world to defend gneiva h, but I know these people personally and they are the sweetest, nicest, holiest people in the world... I cant imagine that they actually did anything that was mentioned in the article. They dont live a large life, and I know them for years, and I cant imagine that they have any money to spare, let alone millions in real estate... I bet this is moreof the anti-frum macarthy witch hunt

It's not a witch hunt. These kinds of charges are not something that can be made up... if they liver in a million dollar house, and own more property than that, nad hundreds of thousands in the bank, they *do* have money to spare.

90

 Jul 29, 2009 at 10:13 AM HashemisEmes Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

The house might be worth 1.5 million, but it might be mortgaged to the hilt. That's not a justification -- but we should get all the facts.

The better question is, why are people who need welfare living in a 1.5 mil dollar house? Boo hoo. They could have bought a 400000 dollar house and bunk beds.

91

 Jul 29, 2009 at 12:00 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
A Rachmonnes Says:

RABBONIM! MANHIGIM! ADMORIM! We desperately need responsible leaders who will guide the heimishe oilem in leading modest (in financial terms) lives, not living beyond our means. Yes, it is very difficult to live in a community and need to keep up with the same high standards for everyone regardless of their family size, income, basic expenses. This couple is lives typical "erhlich heimish frumm" life that we all aspire to.

However, why the exorbitant expensive Chassunas, sheve brochos, vorts, Bar Mitzvahs. Most expensive baby carrages, children shoes, "matching clothing", SHEITLECH , SHTREIMLECH!, hats, AND of course CARS! Rent is sky high because of the Section 8 that every landlord expects, wagonsfull of food because of Foodstamps.

Not that this particular couple has all of the above, but when you live with a large family in a community that this is the norm, it is very tempting to "nosh"from questionable source.

what we need erliche responsible Yidden . We rely too much on rabbonim, manhigim and admorim. Because there is no spontaneous conception therefore ayze chuchom haroye eiz haneuled

92

 Jul 29, 2009 at 01:34 PM Elie Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

Parnassa does not come from god. It comes from hard work, not stealing!!!

there are ways to prevent having so many children- if a couple chooses to ignore that fact, how is stealing a solution? since when is peru urvu more important than lo t'gnov?

Sorry, Parnassa comes only from G-D no matter how hard a person works!

93

 Jul 29, 2009 at 01:39 PM Allan Says:

Very sad story...if the allegations prove to be true then they deserve to be punished....however it's their children that will also pay a stiff price if the parents go to jail...what a shame (if true)!!

94

 Jul 29, 2009 at 01:32 PM red glasses Says:


You are forgetting that this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with how many children this, or any other couple, has!! It simply has to do with WHAT they did- illegally!

95

 Jul 29, 2009 at 05:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

How many people on this blog are working 3, 4 jobs and still can't make ends meet!! Plenty!!! Taking on more jobs may not be possible and does not address the issue.

neither does theft.

96

 Jul 30, 2009 at 03:04 PM Anonymous Says:

To all of you "honest" people who would never dream of stealing .... How many of you hire illegal cleaning ladies??? I think practically everybody out there is guilty to a certain of extent of something that is not 100% according to the letter of the law. Yet, to self righteously put down others feels good... it's that see-saw effect of putting the other guy down so that I can be raised up. Instead of pointing fingers, we should all be doing teshuva.

97

 Jul 30, 2009 at 04:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Loshon Hora Says:

Please don't attack Chareidim.
I personally have never taken a program & pay all my taxes, Boruch Hashem I never had to. I am not blessed with 12 children though.
B4 attacking chareidim: The law of the jungle= survival of the fittest.
Look at those who wrote & govern the laws.
British parliament scandle.
USA current Treasury [includes IRS] Minister 120K tax evasion, & he still got the job. Wasn't taken off in hand-cuffs he is in charge of my taxes approved by congrees & president. BTW he isn't a Chareidi he married out of the faith.
He doesn't have 12 children either & makes nice money, he was part of the federal reserve 12 years prior.
Goldman Sachs Bank, was given 11 Billion tax payer money by AIG, the government appointed CEO Liddy was a shareholder in GS.The saga goes on a lot more, but rule of the jungle these guys write the laws & us little guys have to keep them.
The parents of 12 go away in hand-cuffs the fittest become Government Ministers & CEOs.
I don't condone geneiva or fraud at any level, by I also don't condem Chareidim. Bernie Madoff spent 50 years preaching ethics & condeming Chareidim especially Bnei Torah, I suspect the condemming bloggers are much the same, if they open their books UH what we may find.
We are in Bein Hametzorim Vadayin Hasoton Merakeid Beineinu. Vehameivin Yovin Charboi Shelufa Beyodoi.Lo Oleinu.
All those on programs who can't make ends meet are scared. Those who say don't have so many children have Nazi Philosophy, how many could afford them until this crisis, & how many had nisim. Who gave you a right to pasken such chomurdicke Shalot.
I am not blessed with a lot of children, but how much I would love to have a big family, and happy I am that Am Yisroel is growing Kein Yirbu.Hashiveinu Hashem Eilecha Venoshuva, Chadeish Yomeinu kekedem.

Of course you would like a big family, when you DONT HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. Nothing in life is free. Why is it a goal on this site to be a burden on the rest of society?

98

 Aug 01, 2009 at 09:37 AM Das torah Says:

Teshuva, Tefilla, U'tzedaka Ma'avirin es roah hagezeira.

99

 Aug 02, 2009 at 01:42 AM A. Nuran Says:

Reply to #12  
rivka Says:

What does that mean if you want that many kids you should support them?? It is not a question of wanting......it is a question of fulfilling Hashem's will and if He chooses to bless a couple with that many kids, bli ayin hara, then that couple cannot be blamed for any lack of funds. Hashem should bless every yid with lots of parnassa and adequate income for all their expenses.

In the Torah we are told that we will eat bread by the sweat of our brow. Not the sweat of someone else's brow. Not by stealing from those who work for a living. Feeding your family by stealing bread from someone else's children is the Law which Hashem decreed for the tick, the louse, the bilharzia worm and other parasites.

100

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:33 PM emuna gevald Says:

oy gevald another chillul hashem , dear brothers & sisters make a shtikel cheshbon hanefesh , there is a saying in our country if u play the game play it straight , so how straight can u go , the yesivas want their tuitions , no chochmos , the grocer wants 2 b paid too , the electric co. the gas co. the telephone co. insurance co. glasses, shoes, clothing, cleaners & so on &on , to feed bli ayin hora 14 nafoushes is no game, no one should tell a mother how many children to bear thats real apikurses, u mind your buissness. and dont mixin hashems buissness, man deyouhiv chaya yohiv mezona, we only have 2 rely and belive in it that the same boro olam who benched us with children will support his children , the children what hashem gives 2 a person is not his he is only a shomer on hashems pikodon, now by having a large family our goverment is a malchus shel chesed b.h. u.s.a. is the way , so if we go to the goverment, social services and say the thruth, they do help with medicaid , food stamps, cash allowances, etc, they help pay the rent , & so on but u must learn to say the emes , titain emes leyaakov, to say ligyonos not 2 have emuna ubitochun, that hashem has his shelichim ,2 help were its despratley needed, we say every dar in birchas hashachar boruch hamekadesh shmoy borabim, nu vi iz der kiddush hashem r.l. we all have 2 b metzamzem its inflation depression, so our forfather yaakov ovinu said 2 his children lomo tisrouu. y ? dos brengt r.l. anti semitisem der yid ganvet in ganvet, gevald were are our raabonim rebbes morah horues ? were are the mussar ? ma yaase haben shelo yechto, kol yisroel areivim, they made a big mistake, but al tudin sheain don yechidi elo echod, hashem should help them to get out of this trouble and we all should learn a mussar haskel 2 b more honest beemes , and rely on hashem u should go out 2 work , tov thora im derech eretz , we should have more bittocum & emuna in hakodush boruchu, & b zoiche 2 binyan beis haslishi ugoula shelaimo bimhairo, omen selo.

102

 Dec 22, 2009 at 04:22 PM A Bubby Says:

#74 you are so right, it is time to lower the standard of living. when we grew up, we didn't expect to go to camp, have fancy cars, vacations, etc. and we didn't buy anything we didn't have money for. (no credit cards, specially for food) there are 4 words parents have to start saying to their kids and live by example, "we can't afford that." it will help the shidduch crises as well if girls are not expected to give huge dowries to get a decent boy. above all, it is time for males in our society to finally take responsibility & earn a living by the time they become fathers. either delay fatherhood, or go out and get a vocation or profession so that you can support your family with hashem's help. it is time to turn back the clock and live like our forebears.

103

 Feb 11, 2010 at 11:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
mrs boro parker Says:

whichever way you put it, I feel awful for the family - for the parents, and you will never know how financially desperate they were. It would be punishment enough to take away their property and give them a huge fine, to deprive the kids of their parents that would be a huge tragedy

wrong- since parents were crooks- u are removing BAD role models from them

104

 Mar 01, 2010 at 09:09 PM hatzadik Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

if you can't afford 12 kids, stealing from the government is not the solution...

al toodin chaveircho ad shetageeaa limkomoi.......................... may hashem have rachmunis ....................... start texting and emailing the government.

105

 Mar 24, 2010 at 12:53 PM Luke Says:

So innocent that they plead guilty yesterday. Sad.

106

 Apr 16, 2010 at 03:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

I really feel for families trying to support 12 children (I couldn't do it) and hope these allegations are false, but in the end, swindling from the government (which means from your neighbors who are taxpayers) is not doing your children a favor. Again, Rabbis and the community must take some responsibility. Encouraging marrying very young and having as many children as the wife can carry and insisting no one goes to public school, everyone goes to camp, etc. while at the same time discouraging higher education or learning a trade and working full time seems like a recipe for trouble.

u got it!

107

 Oct 29, 2010 at 03:30 PM Menashe Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

I really feel for families trying to support 12 children (I couldn't do it) and hope these allegations are false, but in the end, swindling from the government (which means from your neighbors who are taxpayers) is not doing your children a favor. Again, Rabbis and the community must take some responsibility. Encouraging marrying very young and having as many children as the wife can carry and insisting no one goes to public school, everyone goes to camp, etc. while at the same time discouraging higher education or learning a trade and working full time seems like a recipe for trouble.

Totally agree. See what Pirke Avos has to say about not working (only learning without also working will result in forgetting what he learns).

108

 Mar 01, 2011 at 11:27 PM YidatHeart Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

people on this site are constantly discussing if it's k'dai to keep on having so many children if you are not sure you can support them. I was just reading a book of letters from the lubavitcher rebbe that were translated into english (eternal joy) where the Rebbe discusses this issue. I am copying over parts of the letter here, because i thought it really puts things into perspective, especially when the person who said it is a tzaddik who knows a bit better than us:

"One of the strongest objections for...limiting the number of children is fear of the financial inability to support children. Naturally, parents want the best for their children, and fear of being unable to provide adequately is a powerful concern-but based on an assumption that springs from a weakness of faith and presumptuousness. One who fears that he will not be able to provide is assuming that it is completely through his efforts that he succeeds. True, Torah requires that man work to provide for his family. But it is a primary tenet of Judaism that all success comes from G-d, that it is His blessings that give sustenance, not one's own efforts alone. It is G-d who provides for all of His creatures; another mouth will not overburden Him .
But the objections continue. Granted that having children is a fine, even beautiful thin; but at least give people athe choice as to when to have children. However, can people be faulted for delaying their first child until they feel emotionally and financially able, or for wishing to space their children , to have a break between one child and the next?
This argument is seemingly logical and certainly appealing. But while it is an axiom of Judaism that man has free choice, do not confuse this with an unlimited opportunity to choose. A child is not a faucet, to be turned on at will.
No power on earth can guarantee the birth of a baby. That decision,that power, is G-d's alone, the third partner in every child. The possible blessing so disdained earlier, may not be available later.
Take his blessing when He offers them, gratefully, and rest assured that this third Partner is benevolent, all knowing, Who can be trusted to know the best time.
Bluntly: it si presumtous for anyone to see herself as the final authority determining life. Attempts to regulate life based solely on man's limited understanding are foolhardy, and the stakes are too high to risk the unpredictable.
The human body is infinitely intricate. Disrupting its natural functions inevitable causes problems. Family planning, presented as helpful and logical, cuases many of the marital problems so prevalent today.
Children, many children, are the greatest gift and blessing G-d can bestow upon us; do not let imagined obstacles stand in the way of enjoying these blessings."
(Sichos Kodesh 5741, vol. 2, pp. 99-108)

I'm not a Lubavitcher, but those are beautiful and eternal words !
All of those who decide the law for others are wicked and evil. Anyone with a large family knows that there many Nissim occur at the most unpredictable of times. TO steal from the Gov't is a terrible sin. But remember - people with small families also steal. Don't blame it on the number of children. Unfortunately the Yetzer Hara is everywhere.

109

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