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New York - Orthodox Rabbis Begin To Take Responsibility for Arrests and Scandals |
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The clearest indication of the newly awakened state came in a symposium on business ethics held in the middle of ultra-Orthodox Brooklyn just a few days after the arrests. Rabbi David Zweibel, the head of the main ultra-Orthodox umbrella organization, Agudath Israel, said that the event had not been on the schedule a week earlier. But the money-laundering arrests reminded him and other leaders that the ultra-Orthodox, or Haredi, community was facing problems caused by the community’s famous insularity.
“There are a lot of benefits of insulating oneself from the broader culture around us, as we do,” Zweibel told the Forward. “But one of the costs of insularity is perhaps a lack of appreciation of the importance of compliance with secular law. That is a message that is important for people to hear.”
The arrests primarily hit members of the Syrian Jewish community, some of whom are ultra-Orthodox and some who are not. But Haredi Jews outside the Syrian community were also arrested, and the broad nature of the arrests have clearly hit home. The event was being hosted in the Borough Park neighborhood of Brooklyn, at the crossroads of many Haredi communities. The flier that went out advertising the event, said it was “of utmost urgency that every individual in the community attend,” though it specified that it was “for men only.”
Zweibel was not the only Haredi leader willing to assign some of the blame for the recent scandal on the Haredi culture. An editorial on the leading Haredi Web site, Voz Iz Neias, put the matter in strong terms. “The fault may partially lie with us and our system of education,” the editorial writer, Rabbi Yair Hoffman, wrote in his July 27 post.
This willingness to look inward has come as a surprise to some long-time watchers. Rabbi Asher Lopatin, a modern Orthodox rabbi in Chicago, has been critical of that culture after past controversies involving Haredi community members, and each time he came to expect the same response.
“These guys would basically say, ‘The world is anti-Semitic and we have to look out for our own interest,’” Lopatin told the Forward.
During the past week, however, Lopatin says he has seen a new self-reflection among a group of Haredi leaders who have begun to recognize that the ultra-Orthodox world may shoulder some of the blame for the problems.
“There’s a little bit of self awareness that we have not seen before, and that’s exciting. I was expecting business as usual,” Lopatin said.
One reason given for the bout of introspection was the timing of the money-laundering arrests during the nine days that precede Tisha B’Av – a holiday commemorating the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and other historical calamities. The days before Tisha B’Av are traditionally dedicated to contemplation and self-reflection.
But the arrests also come in the wake of a string of embarrassing controversies for the ultra-Orthodox. Last year, the Haredi owners of the kosher meat company Agriprocessors were arrested for bank fraud and immigration violations after the company was the subject of a massive immigration raid. A few months earlier, the Grand Rabbi of the Spinka Haredi sect was arrested in a separate money laundering case.
More recently, the ultra-Orthodox world was rived by a series of riots in Jerusalem that pitted Haredi youth against the Israeli police. An entry on the Web site Cross-Currents, which features a number of Haredi writers, summed up the burgeoning sense of shame. “It has been an awful week, and an awful few months, and that places growing obligation on us to change the direction,” Daniel Feldman, a rabbi at Yeshiva University wrote in his July 28 post.
Certainly, not all Haredi authorities have joined this chorus of self-criticism, particularly in Israel. The editor of a Haredi newspaper connected with the Shas political party, Yom Le’Yom, struck a familiar note when he told the Jerusalem Post that the money laundering case was primarily a result of antisemitism – not of any wrong-doing by the rabbis.
“Regardless of the details of the case, I am not familiar with the precise charges and the evidence, you would never see the FBI and police behaving that way with Muslim sheikhs or Christian priests,” the editor, Yitzhak Kakun told the Post. “It is so obvious that the whole thing is motivated by anti-Semitism.”
Many observers of the Haredi world also say that during the Sabbath after the arrests, many Haredi rabbis placed much of the blame for the situation not on the behavior of the arrested men, bur rather on the Jewish businessman who served as an informant for the government, Solomon Dwek. Harry Maryles, a modern Orthodox blogger in Chicago who has been a frequent critic of the Haredi world, wrote that “those who continue to complain about [Dwek] and say nothing about these criminal rabbis once again show just how pervasive is the idea that what these rabbis did wasn’t all that bad. What WAS too bad is that they were caught.”
Rabbi Yair Hoffman, the writer of the editorial on Voz Iz Neias, said that one of the main things that the Haredi world needs change is an antagonistic relationship with the secular world that has been conditioned by years as the scapegoat.
“We’ve got to reconceive our relationship to the country we’re in,” Hoffman, a rabbi on Long Island, told the Forward. “This is a beautiful country – its laws are proper laws that are designed to help its citizenry, and we’re not dealing with a situation where Jews are necessarily the underdog — a situation that at times can contribute to a mindset of, ‘Let’s not necessarily observe the law.’
“People are starting to feel that this stuff is not right,” Lopatin added. “In the past, it was all about getting cheap meat and looking out for ourselves. I think it’s permeating the Haredi world that it’s not right to cheat the government
More of today's headlines
“Butner, NC - A lawyer for victims of Bernard Madoff's Ponzi scheme says the financier told him during a 4 1/2-hour prison interview plenty of details about the fraud...”
Butner, NC - Madoff Explained Fraud in Prison
Monsey, NY - Monsey Couple Charged With Welfare Fraud
Total70
Read Comments (70) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 28, 2009 at 06:58 PM Anonymous Says:
Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events?
2
Jul 28, 2009 at 06:56 PM Anonymous Says:
The issue is not lack of appreciation for secular law; issue is lack of appreciation for anything non-jewish, full stop.
3
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:08 PM Reb Yid Says:
It is an insult to the wider community to blaim laundering on an "insular community set up", Madof was not insular and still managed not to appreciate secular society. We are not stupid nor nieve. When our people do stuff they do it with full brain capacity.
Denial of the event that transpired is rediculous. We must face the fact that we are a society in which people will unfortunately be fallible. There are trully only few Tzadikim and stupidity is not an excuse to be careless with the Law. We are only Malachim on Yom kippur, other than then, we should educate our children using this blundering example, not shy away from real life.
4
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:08 PM MDshweks Says:
It's very very important to act quickly and make CLEAR RULES as to what is a community to do with criminals, and what's to be doen with someone (Rav, President etc.) who allows criminals to enjoy full communal cover. [they can't sit on the podium of Siyum HaShas 'vi sheine yidden'.]
It's a tremendeous Chilul Hashem that the Halacha of not being 'Moiser' turned into a full cover and endorsment of entire communities.
However, we all know that it's very dificult to draw the lines of these rules. But something has to be doen FAST - and reported in the local papers.
5
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:11 PM sam Says:
I am wondering y this is in boro park? Probably it is easier to blame the chasidim then the regular orthodox jew y not make in flatbush or the five towns?
6
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:08 PM Anonymous Says:
Kol Hakavod to Spinka Rebbe for his drosho by this event.
I would ask VIN to translate and post the entire drosho, as it was a sincere and heart-breaking admission and apology, as well as a call to the public to learn from his mosdos' hard lesson, and to establish compliance boards in all mosdos hatzibur.
7
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:07 PM Anonymous Says:
Gotta love it when Agudath Israel, that has no presence in boro park is organizing this event, gotta teach those chasiddim how not to make a chilul hashem.
8
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:04 PM ploiderer Says:
We've had many wakeup calls. The problem is that we press the snooze button. Remember, there is no forgiveness for a chillul hashem
9
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:04 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The issue is not lack of appreciation for secular law; issue is lack of appreciation for anything non-jewish, full stop. ”
Appreciation is not the issue; it is respect and compliance.
10
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:03 PM Plain Jew Says:
I find the broad stroke of this article particularly irking. You get a feeling of smugness and of self-righteousness emanating from many in the MO communities. This reflexive and automatic trend to condescendingly judge an entire community is nauseating. That which the MO community accuses the the 'Haredi' commuity, they do themselves: Exhibit a holier than thou attitude.
I am sick and tired of it, and I don't even consider myself Haredi.
The laissez-fair attitude towards financial ethics is a Jewish problem, not a Haredi one.But by their public pronouncement of their faith, the Haredis may be held to a higher standard than most Jews, hence the cries of anti-semitism. But while I do not believe that these investigations are motivated by anti-semitism, the sometimes less-than-scupulous behaviors by some CAN be explained by anti-semitism.
Let me explain and this not a defense or an excuse - just a study of the isssue:
For nearly two thousand years, the Jewish people have been severely persecuted and hunted down. The Poritz, the galach, the government and the laws of the land, with its impossible taxation etc, meant that the only way for survival was to beat the system; to have a "yiddishe kop". Not to, meant death. After two thousand years, this survival instinct is ingrained in our psyche and it takes effort to realize that: "Hey, we dont need to do this anymore - we can follow the law and not only survive - we can thrive!!"
Ingrained in us is mistrust for the goyim, for the police and government. It will take time - for us to heal from 2,000 years of persecution. Some of us rid ourselves of these bad survival habits, and some did not.
We do need to re-educate, to explain and to inculcate the new generations to shed this inherent mistrust and 'dreying' , and to that end, we bear full responsibility to ensure that we stop the perpetuation of these behaviors. Nevertheless, and this is not to justify it- the ROOT cause of this behaviour IS the persecution that we suffered as a people. . In this same way that there are bad behavior patterns amongst segments of the African American community due to slavery - the same is true for the Jewish one.
So let's stop the name calling, the tarring of an entire community, and lets understand and face our fears and re-educate the new generations that we can and are obligated to do better.
But, please, no more sermons from the MO about 'cheap meat' and al the rest, which, even to my non-Haredi ears, sounds alot like anti-Haredism, if not anti-semitism. Enough!
11
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I am wondering y this is in boro park? Probably it is easier to blame the chasidim then the regular orthodox jew y not make in flatbush or the five towns? ”
Because the askonim that organize this event happen to live there, ask your local rabbi to arrange one in his neighborhood.
12
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events? ”
Not enough seats.
13
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:01 PM anon Says:
Vi’asisa hayashar vi’hatov. what does this mean? please translate
14
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events? ”
It is purely technical. The place where the symposium is held, the Viznitz Ohr Hachaim hall, is not big enough for the men audience.
That said, had there been room for the woman, the organizers surely would have assigned a woman's section.
15
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:25 PM Anonymous Says:
or bec bp is the only place they'd get away with making this event for men only. I was wondering about that ommision too
16
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:24 PM A Boro Parker Says:
“ Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events? ”
No there is nothing wrong with having women attened. however there is not enough space in the hall to accomadate so many ppl. and this type of crime is currently domanted by men...... just my thoughts.
17
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:21 PM A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have... Says:
Nathan Pooper will go out of his way at any time any day to find fault with the "frum" people. I dont know what his problem is and I really dont care. All I want to know is why he didnt label all the non-frum as cheats etc., when Madoff was arrested???
18
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events? ”
Bec! If youd like you can arrange a meeting like this in your "orthodox" community
for men and woman
19
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events? ”
Besides the lack of space...I doubt there are too many scandals made by Orthodox Women or altogether in any position to be involved .
20
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I am wondering y this is in boro park? Probably it is easier to blame the chasidim then the regular orthodox jew y not make in flatbush or the five towns? ”
whereever it would be you would commplain. maybe we should have it in another country !
21
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:18 PM m.b. Says:
i would hope that central message of this 'rally' would be to send the folowing message: we yidden are an am kodosh bnai kl choi and no anti semite fbi thug ,us judge ,media ,etc is qualified to pass judgement on the simple one of us! there is much more honesty ,ethics,charity, kindness,emunah,etc in our criminals[mosrim excluded] than any member of the fbi team who are using & abusing their position of authority to destroy whoever they please! who gives these thugs the right to embarass a elected offical before he convicted of any crime ? what is the legal,financial , & social recourse granted to defandant who will be acquited? will this fbi [kgb] thug call a national press conference to publicly appoligise to an innocent person ,pay his legal bills,etc? who made these laws anway lets examine these legislators one by one , life styles, etc they are non entities for an am kodosh ! all this notwithstanding , we are in golus & most avoid negative spotlighting at all cost even when our illegalities towers well above their of law
but to have them & yes their jewish cohorts judge & moralise to us no way!
22
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:55 PM formally Says:
I hope this meeting does not emphasize and say we have to stop this because it causes a chillel Hasem. Thy should say clearly, it should not be done since it is wrong and maybe stealing. Is that so hard for them to say
By using chillel Hasem, the rabonim are saying, the only reason that is bad is that you might be caught but otherwise it is ok and not an Avara.
chillel Hasem should be used in actions that are legal but still should not be done. Or other actions maybe littering it is not an Avera but causes a chillel Hasem.
23
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events? ”
It has more to do with space than discrimination. The message is for you too.
24
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:48 PM Loshon Hora Says:
Here we go again. The apikorsim of the Fowards why do we recognize them even?
I guess as internet blogger I myself need some wake-up call.Nothing internet could be too kosher I see.
25
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:52 PM Anonymous Says:
Plain Jew makes some very interesting observations. The more insular a community is, the harder it is to shed these shtetl ways of thinking about the government and fellow citizens. If non-jews and non-frum jews are not your friends, neighbors and colleagues, it is harder to overcome ingrained views about secular governments and gentiles all being bad, antisemitic, etc. (like many were in Europe). If you do have some contact with others but you yourself aren't warm and friendly (because you are taught not to trust others or to mingle with them), then that's also what you will see back.
The schools and rabbis have a responsibility to act affirmatively to overcome these ways of thinking if they still exist.
27
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:43 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It is an insult to the wider community to blaim laundering on an "insular community set up", Madof was not insular and still managed not to appreciate secular society. We are not stupid nor nieve. When our people do stuff they do it with full brain capacity.
Denial of the event that transpired is rediculous. We must face the fact that we are a society in which people will unfortunately be fallible. There are trully only few Tzadikim and stupidity is not an excuse to be careless with the Law. We are only Malachim on Yom kippur, other than then, we should educate our children using this blundering example, not shy away from real life. ”
Reb Yid: The issue about insularity is not one of naivety or stupidity. Its about attitudes that can develop in some insular communities . Rabbi Zweibel was saying that with an internal, insular focus, one can lose sight of the external and having respect for and complying with laws that come from outside of the community.
28
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:36 PM PMO Says:
I hope this is all true. I hope our leaders really are going to take a good, hard look at where we are today and how we got here.
Moiser is a terrible thing. Nobody should be arbitrarily turning their neighbors in. However, that does not mean we are required to provide cover, lie for them, commit fraud for them, or anything else. Our children learn from our examples. Look at the path we have set them on. We can still make it right with help from H".
29
Jul 28, 2009 at 07:33 PM Anonymous Says:
Bravo # 3 and #4, it is an unfortunate reality that when Enron collapsed and the myriad of scandals since, no-one ever brought up race or ethnicity but as soon a Jew is caught it becomes an issue. Instead of being apologetic for our lifestyle we should reinforce the positive which includes generosity, chesed, productivity, almost a non existence of violent or blue-collar crime. When someone in the fold is caught doing a crime he should be so excoriated and denounced that people would be afraid of the community backlash and keep away from such shenanigans.
By the way, had Dreck been cast out of our society, he would not have been able to entrap anyone else.
30
Jul 28, 2009 at 09:03 PM Anonymous Says:
These kinds of symposiums are being given for the past few years in BP, cuz the Boro Park community leaders are organizing it, ad they care for their people, it helps a lot, it educates and gets the heimishe people (cahssidish and litvish) familiar with law and with what's happenning in the big world.
31
Jul 28, 2009 at 08:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I find the broad stroke of this article particularly irking. You get a feeling of smugness and of self-righteousness emanating from many in the MO communities. This reflexive and automatic trend to condescendingly judge an entire community is nauseating. That which the MO community accuses the the 'Haredi' commuity, they do themselves: Exhibit a holier than thou attitude.
I am sick and tired of it, and I don't even consider myself Haredi.
The laissez-fair attitude towards financial ethics is a Jewish problem, not a Haredi one.But by their public pronouncement of their faith, the Haredis may be held to a higher standard than most Jews, hence the cries of anti-semitism. But while I do not believe that these investigations are motivated by anti-semitism, the sometimes less-than-scupulous behaviors by some CAN be explained by anti-semitism.
Let me explain and this not a defense or an excuse - just a study of the isssue:
For nearly two thousand years, the Jewish people have been severely persecuted and hunted down. The Poritz, the galach, the government and the laws of the land, with its impossible taxation etc, meant that the only way for survival was to beat the system; to have a "yiddishe kop". Not to, meant death. After two thousand years, this survival instinct is ingrained in our psyche and it takes effort to realize that: "Hey, we dont need to do this anymore - we can follow the law and not only survive - we can thrive!!"
Ingrained in us is mistrust for the goyim, for the police and government. It will take time - for us to heal from 2,000 years of persecution. Some of us rid ourselves of these bad survival habits, and some did not.
We do need to re-educate, to explain and to inculcate the new generations to shed this inherent mistrust and 'dreying' , and to that end, we bear full responsibility to ensure that we stop the perpetuation of these behaviors. Nevertheless, and this is not to justify it- the ROOT cause of this behaviour IS the persecution that we suffered as a people. . In this same way that there are bad behavior patterns amongst segments of the African American community due to slavery - the same is true for the Jewish one.
So let's stop the name calling, the tarring of an entire community, and lets understand and face our fears and re-educate the new generations that we can and are obligated to do better.
But, please, no more sermons from the MO about 'cheap meat' and al the rest, which, even to my non-Haredi ears, sounds alot like anti-Haredism, if not anti-semitism. Enough! ”
Its a jewish problem? strange, I learned last week there almost 30 non jews arrested, and nearly half were jews. Its a common problem, the more the population will learn, the more it will be reduced.
32
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:28 PM translation.... Says:
“ Vi’asisa hayashar vi’hatov. what does this mean? please translate ”
It means "and you shall do what is right and good"
33
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:28 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Nathan Pooper will go out of his way at any time any day to find fault with the "frum" people. I dont know what his problem is and I really dont care. All I want to know is why he didnt label all the non-frum as cheats etc., when Madoff was arrested??? ”
Because, the none religious Jews, did not defend Madoff, as they are defending the NJ 8
34
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:32 PM Anonymous Says:
Speaking of "self awareness" can Rabbi Lopatin please explain the term "Modern Orthodox" and how does it differ from conservative and reform?
36
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM Pashuteh Yid Says:
“ Vi’asisa hayashar vi’hatov. what does this mean? please translate ”
It is a verse in the Bible which translates to: You should do what is straight and good. However, the Talmud derives from here that there is an obligation to go above and beyond the letter of the law, so that everything you do is proper and just. There is a passage in the Talmud which states that Jerusalem was destroyed because people only followed the laws, but did not go above and beyond.
An example of going above and beyond is a case in the Talmud of a certain Rabbi who had a worker who overloaded a carrier system of some type, beyond its rated capacity. The thing broke and 400 barrels of wine were destroyed as a result. The Rabbi wanted to take the worker to court to pay for the loss. The court told him that although technically he was right, since the worker was negligent, however, not only must he not collect these damages from the worker, he cannot even dock the worker's salary during the time he improperly operated the device.
37
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:11 PM GROW UP! Says:
I am 15 years old which may seem very young to all of you, but that's old enough to realize that you never know what is going on behind closed doors. Just be thankful that you are not in this situation. Instead of telling others about their chilull hashem you should start working on your kiddush hashem. Ahavas Yisroel is the most important thing and it's extremely sad that I see what you ellders don't. So when you wake up in the morning why don't you thank god for all that he has given you because afterall it could be you.
38
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:42 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I hope this is all true. I hope our leaders really are going to take a good, hard look at where we are today and how we got here.
Moiser is a terrible thing. Nobody should be arbitrarily turning their neighbors in. However, that does not mean we are required to provide cover, lie for them, commit fraud for them, or anything else. Our children learn from our examples. Look at the path we have set them on. We can still make it right with help from H". ”
We, we , we.. who's we? we don't cheat, we don't lie, we don't steal. is "everybody" perfect? no. every now and then a story pops up once it happens in the non jewish siciety, once in the secular society, and also in the orthodox society.
So there's always place for improvement, especially when everybody is under the impression of the last weeks headlines.
So the symposium in Boro Park serves very well even if most people in our society are well aware of what's right and wrong, but more awareness is never too much.
39
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:32 PM Anonymous Says:
When two great rabbonim such as Rav Hoffman and Rav Lopatin, Shlita agree on the need for fundamental change within Chareidi community, they really will have to take these issues seriously.
Its time for the Chareidim to follow the lead of the MO community.
40
Jul 28, 2009 at 09:56 PM Anonymous Says:
Blame and blame again.. there is nobody to blame. no group or community is based on tax evasion or money laundering.
It didn't happen that some people were allegedly caught doing such activity (no matter the circumstances), so the arrests itself is a big massive lesson and wake up call if anybody will still be put to such a nisoyon in the future, and a lecture explaining a bit more of law is definitely a positive move of prevention of misdeeds.
41
Jul 28, 2009 at 09:40 PM Plain Jew Says:
“ Its a jewish problem? strange, I learned last week there almost 30 non jews arrested, and nearly half were jews. Its a common problem, the more the population will learn, the more it will be reduced. ”
Poster #31. You are 100% right. I want to clarify my post:
I don't want, G-d forbid, to impugn the Jewish people with negative behavior. : My point is not, G-d forbid that this is a Jewish problem; rather that inasmuch as people, especially those in the MO world, point to it as a 'Haredi problem' , it would be as much Jewish as Haredi.
And furthermore, I did not mean to insinuate that this is a Jewish problem, G-d forbid, but rather to the the extent that it exists on ANY level in the Jewish community - it must be understood in terms of it cause (anti-semitism).
42
Jul 28, 2009 at 09:39 PM Emes Says:
Maybe we should "all" get off our high horses and realize that HKB"H wants us to do Teshuva - each and everyone of us on our own level. This is a lesson that is affecting the entire Torah society - MO or Chareidi - this for one thing should be a call for more Ahavas Yisrael - even for those that commit chillul hashem - they are not reshaim - if they were then it maybe mutar to hate them - but they are not. They are yidden who have made a terrible mistake - or not - we'll find out in Olam Habaa. And if my ramblings are not enough for you, just read the properly tomorrow night - realize that we are still playing the blame game and not accepting responsibility for our actions as a nation. Hashem wants us to take achrayus for our actions and that's why it's amazing that our leadership are finally speaking up in a tone of understanding our mistakes. Don't criticize our leaders. Hearken - wake up. Hashem wants to be pro-active - not reactive.
43
Jul 28, 2009 at 10:45 PM Anonymous Says:
The UJO of Williamsburg gives free business seminars every other month, where big lawyers and accountants come down give lectures how to conduct business in legal and perfect manner, and not to run into problems.
44
Jul 28, 2009 at 09:38 PM Plain Jew Says:
“ Its a jewish problem? strange, I learned last week there almost 30 non jews arrested, and nearly half were jews. Its a common problem, the more the population will learn, the more it will be reduced. ”
Poster #31. You are 100% right. I want to clarify my post:
I don't want, G-d forbid, to impugn the Jewish people with negative behavior. : My point is not, G-d forbid that this is a Jewish problem; rather that inasmuch as people, especially those in the MO world, point to it as a 'Haredi problem' , it would be as much Jewish as Haredi.
And furthermore, I did not mean to insinuate that this is a Jewish problem, G-d forbid, but rather to the the extent that it exists on ANY level in the Jewish community - it must be understood in terms of it cause (anti-semitism).
45
Jul 28, 2009 at 11:29 PM Jersey Yid Says:
Why all the talk about being insular and lack of appreciatino of secular law. How about lack of appreciation for Torah law. Last I checked stealing was still an avierah, as was swearing falsely, as in signing false affidavits and tax returns, welfare applications, not paying sales tax, etc (midvar sheker tirchak). I think it is shameful that this is apolgeticaly described as a by product of being insular. Let's call it for what it is, stealing. Plain and simple petty ganovim.
46
Jul 28, 2009 at 11:15 PM Anonymous Says:
To all of you who don't live in Boro Park & might not be aware: These symposiums have been held at the same hall in Boro Park in the past several years already. Though last year if I remember correctly there wasn't such an event in Boro Park. In more recent years there were such events held in Williamsburg too. The turnout each year at these symposiums were huge. Most of the speakers today have spoken already more then once in prior years' symposiums including Rabbi Zwiebel, Benjamin Brafman Esq., and Jacob Laufer Esq. Understandably the recent events and it's ramafications & lessons were the main topic tonight, but it's simply not true what this writer claims that this was a wake up only after last week's arrests. He should have checked his facts first.
47
Jul 28, 2009 at 11:39 PM moshe Says:
Look, I'm definitely gonna have a lot of fun making fun of the wildly divergent speakers at the asifa but all in all, not only was it totally cool but it was damn inspiring, touching and even educational (I mean 'scary'). I thought I'd be there mostly in a sociological mindframe but I gotta say (though many aspects of it were certainly weird - including the guy in khakis and blue polo shirt a.k.a. me) I found myself enriched by this communal get together and even went back to wondering whether I could rejoin the community and partake in all of the communal, emotional, possibly-spiritual and intellectual pleasures without giving up my mind-to-mouth freedom of critical thought/speech. (I unfortunately know the answer to that, but events like this get-together make me sad about that answer.)
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Jul 29, 2009 at 07:14 AM Dr. E Says:
I think that the exclusion of women at this event is a significant zohch. If women in the Chareidi community had a reasonable acumen about financial realities, they would be able to counterbalance some of the overambition and financial greed of their husbands. They could say something like "Yossele, maybe it's not nice to cheat the government by leasing a Lexus SUV when we receive Food Stamps and WIC" or "Berel, I learned is seminary that pulling a gun on an Ani to extort a kidney might not be proper Derech Eretz." Right now, all many Heimishe women know is how to do is spend that they think has been thrown their way on sheitels, Shabbos robes, take-out from Pomegranate, and summers in the bungalow. They are not privy to how all this this money is obtained. Don’t ask, don’t tell. They are certainly not privy to all the hondling and hock that takes place at the tables in the shteibel during laining where many guys discuss their latest “accomplishments” in the financial world, either legal or not. As a result, the women live in separate worlds from their husbands and cannot be the “checks and balances” against illegal behavior (do they really know or care what goes on during the two months of the summer when they are sitting around the kiddie pool at the bungalow colonies?). I would guess that the wives of most of the indicted individuals unfortunately fall into this category of living separate lives. They are probably less complicit than they are clueless. Just as long as their husbands are respected in the community, all is good. If they were a bit more educated in the concept of dina ‘d’malchusa dina” and where all of their money is coming from, that might help in this regard.
So, I say, that the Agideh should set up a vibershe-shul at this asifeh to accomodate the women who are out at the Monticello Walmart! (I hope Rabbi Zweibel now reads VIN now that the new editorial takanas have been implemented.)
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Jul 29, 2009 at 07:10 AM Anonymous Says:
While there is plenty of the message of this article that is worthy and accurate, I agree with several of the commenters that there is strong reason to dismiss the messenger. The publication that printed this addresses the issue in a manner which is clearly focused on degrading frum Yidden. My response is, "Shame on you!" Yes, there have been more incidents that are chilul Hashem, but "Af al pi shechotoh Yisrael hu". Here's another quote the Forward, JW, or others of the same ilk would never print in their discussions on frum Yidden - even the lowest Yid is full of mitzvos. There is no community on the planet that has as much chesed as we do. You want to challenge the honesty of the dollars? Let's address just chesed that involves personal sacrifice for others. Shall we name names? We are all aware of some of it, and when we give it a moment's thought, we are impressed. There is much, much more. There is plenty of room for improvement. While we have egg on our faces now, we still have tons of mitzvos in our favor. We need the mussar and guidance from our chachomim. But the broad brush that this publication and a few others seek to use to paint the community of shomrei mitzvos as scoundrels that ignore laws and ethics is simply untrue. Again, to these anti-orthodox media, I say one thing: "Shame on you!"
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Jul 29, 2009 at 03:42 AM malach Says:
“ I find the broad stroke of this article particularly irking. You get a feeling of smugness and of self-righteousness emanating from many in the MO communities. This reflexive and automatic trend to condescendingly judge an entire community is nauseating. That which the MO community accuses the the 'Haredi' commuity, they do themselves: Exhibit a holier than thou attitude.
I am sick and tired of it, and I don't even consider myself Haredi.
The laissez-fair attitude towards financial ethics is a Jewish problem, not a Haredi one.But by their public pronouncement of their faith, the Haredis may be held to a higher standard than most Jews, hence the cries of anti-semitism. But while I do not believe that these investigations are motivated by anti-semitism, the sometimes less-than-scupulous behaviors by some CAN be explained by anti-semitism.
Let me explain and this not a defense or an excuse - just a study of the isssue:
For nearly two thousand years, the Jewish people have been severely persecuted and hunted down. The Poritz, the galach, the government and the laws of the land, with its impossible taxation etc, meant that the only way for survival was to beat the system; to have a "yiddishe kop". Not to, meant death. After two thousand years, this survival instinct is ingrained in our psyche and it takes effort to realize that: "Hey, we dont need to do this anymore - we can follow the law and not only survive - we can thrive!!"
Ingrained in us is mistrust for the goyim, for the police and government. It will take time - for us to heal from 2,000 years of persecution. Some of us rid ourselves of these bad survival habits, and some did not.
We do need to re-educate, to explain and to inculcate the new generations to shed this inherent mistrust and 'dreying' , and to that end, we bear full responsibility to ensure that we stop the perpetuation of these behaviors. Nevertheless, and this is not to justify it- the ROOT cause of this behaviour IS the persecution that we suffered as a people. . In this same way that there are bad behavior patterns amongst segments of the African American community due to slavery - the same is true for the Jewish one.
So let's stop the name calling, the tarring of an entire community, and lets understand and face our fears and re-educate the new generations that we can and are obligated to do better.
But, please, no more sermons from the MO about 'cheap meat' and al the rest, which, even to my non-Haredi ears, sounds alot like anti-Haredism, if not anti-semitism. Enough! ”
Plain Jew, I hope you understand that while what you write may be true of the US, it is not true of Israel, which has many legal and governmental problems. Since there is constant communication back and forth esp by religious Jews, the differences in legal attitudes, cultural norms, and religious behavior must be taken into account. I think that the FBI "outing" of these rabbis is peculiar. We must consider that Obama is allegedly making friendly overtures toward Syria, and simultaneously, Syrian Jewish rabbonim are arrested. Leaving aside for a moment the question of their guilt or innocence, the timing of this sting is very questionable. In these difficult times, Jews of (almost) all varieties need to support one another, not backbite. The fact is that no matter how lovely, Jews do not belong in chutz period; the diagreements are mainly over when they need to move back to Erez Yisroel.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 03:34 AM Anonymous Says:
“ When two great rabbonim such as Rav Hoffman and Rav Lopatin, Shlita agree on the need for fundamental change within Chareidi community, they really will have to take these issues seriously.
Its time for the Chareidim to follow the lead of the MO community. ”
follow the lead of the MO community?
You find enormous good and bad in each. Each should learn from eachother. take the ochel and leave the psoles.
I used to think if you didn't educate your children and prepare them for a profession you were setting them up for a life of hustling... and then I went to the 5 Towns and met many well-educated but who had family members sitting for white collar crime (and it was sort of respected as long as there was an account left behind.) And I realized it is about values. And for all the spouse-swapping stories I heard go on in the chareidi world, there were equally as many reports there too.
So don't think anyone has it all figured out. There's a yetzer hora wherever you live, wherever you daven. It's about the values that are taught and valued in the community.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 08:10 AM Insider Says:
“ follow the lead of the MO community?
You find enormous good and bad in each. Each should learn from eachother. take the ochel and leave the psoles.
I used to think if you didn't educate your children and prepare them for a profession you were setting them up for a life of hustling... and then I went to the 5 Towns and met many well-educated but who had family members sitting for white collar crime (and it was sort of respected as long as there was an account left behind.) And I realized it is about values. And for all the spouse-swapping stories I heard go on in the chareidi world, there were equally as many reports there too.
So don't think anyone has it all figured out. There's a yetzer hora wherever you live, wherever you daven. It's about the values that are taught and valued in the community.
”
Enormous good and bad ???? I only see the enormous GOOD in the Haredi community. If some individuals, such as the Spinka and the five good rabbis, inadvertantly forgot to stop at a stop sign, that is not evil in any dictionary. On the contrary, not one of the rabbis is being accused of gambling at Atlantic City or being seen at a night club. No prostitute is claiming any relationship nor are the rabbis being accused of any deviant behavior. True, they violated a law and should be prosecuted, as any other citizen. Let them pay their fine and let's all of us move on.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 08:10 AM Torah Truth Says:
It's about time! We as a Chareidi community, one that I consider myself part of, need to do a real Cheshbon HaNefesh, an introspective look at who we are. We have become a community that has lost its way when it comes to honesty. Plain simple honesty. Yashrus. It is as if nobody knows what the word means anymore. Illegal basements, cash business, money laundering, and so much more that I dare not express openly. What has happened??? All with a drei and a Lumdus of how it is not Assur, after all it is Gezel Akkum, or there is no Dina Dimalchusa, my Rav said its Muttar. Maybe it is Muttar Al Pi Halacha, but is it Yashor? Ali pi Halacha it is probably Muttar for a girl to wear a colorful and tight fitting outfit but is it Yashor? We are so Machmir on Hilchos Tznius and B”H we are, but when it comes to Gezel it is a free for all… what has happened to us? Yes, we are measured on a higher standard and so we should be. We call ourselves a Mamleches Kohanim but do we (myself included) act like one? If we don’t want to live up to the standard then don’t portray ourselves to the outside world like we do. If we dress like B’nai Torah then we have a responsibility to act like B’nei Torah! If someone dresses like a Chassid (pious person) then act like a Chassid! The fact that Milken or Madoff are also crooks has no relevance, they don’t wear their religion on their sleeve, head, legs and everywhere else… we do. When someone came to Rav Yaakov ZT”L and asked him if something that was permitted that was not so straight, Rav Yaakov said that the Luchos were written so they could be read from both sides, “Any way you look at it, it says Lo Signov”. As Rav Breuer ZT”L would say, not just Glatt Kosher, but Glatt Yosher… LET”S WAKE UP FIX WHAT IS BROKEN and stop blaming others for pointing it out!
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Jul 29, 2009 at 08:03 AM Insider Says:
“ Why was this program only open to men? Why discriminate against women? For disclosure purposes, I am orthodox, but not ultra-orthodox so maybe I am missing something. Is there a prohibition against women attending these sorts of events? ”
With the expected overflow crowd, there was no space for women or, for that matter, children.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 08:22 AM daas tora Says:
sorry guys, I really don't see the big chilul Hashem here. In my eyes the "kiddish Hashem" is huge. Out of 50,000 yidden living in Rockland County , only 1 couple and 2 israeli's are ganovim. That means that the vast majority of frum yidden are law abiding citizens who respect the law of the land.
Way to go frummies!
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Jul 29, 2009 at 08:14 AM Torah Truth Says:
“ Speaking of "self awareness" can Rabbi Lopatin please explain the term "Modern Orthodox" and how does it differ from conservative and reform? ”
What a ridiculous comment! While I am not part of the “Modern Orthodox” world, nor do I agree with their Hashkafa, they believe in Toras HaShem Min HaShamayim while Conservative and Reform do not. Your comments indicate how superficial your thinking is.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 09:08 AM chief doofis Says:
“ Speaking of "self awareness" can Rabbi Lopatin please explain the term "Modern Orthodox" and how does it differ from conservative and reform? ”
How dare you question the difference between Modern Orthodoxy and Conservative / Reform
Modern Orthodoxy is very different from Conservatism and Reform. I might be construed as M.O. I shave every day, I don't usually wear a hat. My kids all went to college, and we don't pronounce a Cholom as a Choylom! English is the primary language in my home, and I possess a T.V. and obviously. have internet access. I wear colored shirts and slacks.
In reply to the guy who wants to know where Modern Orthodoxy differs from other denominations. I haven't missed a Shacharit minyan since sometime in the '60's (unless i was sick, or a minyan was not within 20 miles). I wear Tzitzit every day. I eat the same foods that the so called "haredim" do, but I trust the OU for everything but milk. I learn Torah every day. I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on chinuch for my kids, foregoing vacations, new cars, nice clothing, etc. Yes, my wife and daughters in law cover their heads. I'll come home sometimes, after driving a few hundred miles a day, and go to Mincha and Ma'ariv (without a jacket and hat) before I eat dinner (at this time of year, that's 9 PM). Torah and Mitzvot are very important in my "Modern Orthodox" home, and these values have
been transmitted to my children and grandchildren.
The use of the term Modern is merely an adjective used to describe individuals who manage to associate with the secular world, as well as with the world of Torah and Halacha. People who compromise on Torah (beyond the parameters of Halachically sanctioned actions) are not Modern Orthodox, they are simply doing the wrong thing!
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Jul 29, 2009 at 09:05 AM mig Says:
“ I am 15 years old which may seem very young to all of you, but that's old enough to realize that you never know what is going on behind closed doors. Just be thankful that you are not in this situation. Instead of telling others about their chilull hashem you should start working on your kiddush hashem. Ahavas Yisroel is the most important thing and it's extremely sad that I see what you ellders don't. So when you wake up in the morning why don't you thank god for all that he has given you because afterall it could be you. ”
Amen! You hid it right on the button. Thank you.
I onced asked my rabbi, how should we respond after seeing the violent protests in EY. He said the following which I am paraphrasing: "Whenever we see something negative about a person or in the news we have to look inward and ask ourselves, "Is G-d sending me a message? Is there something that I should do to work on my ahavas yisroel?"
Therefore, we as Yiddin should respond the same way when watching the terrible news of money laundering. We should ask ourselves, "Are we truthful in our business dealings? Do we lie on our tax forms?"
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Jul 29, 2009 at 09:15 AM Anonymous Says:
The UJO of Williamsburg gives free business seminars every other month, where big lawyers and accountants come down give lectures how to conduct business in legal and perfect manner, and not to run into problems.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 09:23 AM Anonymous Says:
Hope this whole ordeal should atleast bring more achdus between us, MO, Litvish Chassidish, or ultra frum.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 09:22 AM Elections Have Consequences Says:
I don't understand why the Agudah bothers talking to Poopper & The Forward. Has the rag in question EVER given a fair shake to frum people?? I never saw it.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 08:37 AM mt mehdi Says:
“ sorry guys, I really don't see the big chilul Hashem here. In my eyes the "kiddish Hashem" is huge. Out of 50,000 yidden living in Rockland County , only 1 couple and 2 israeli's are ganovim. That means that the vast majority of frum yidden are law abiding citizens who respect the law of the land.
Way to go frummies! ”
Kiddush Hashem? The rest weren't caught yet.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 10:26 AM JD Says:
“ How dare you question the difference between Modern Orthodoxy and Conservative / Reform
Modern Orthodoxy is very different from Conservatism and Reform. I might be construed as M.O. I shave every day, I don't usually wear a hat. My kids all went to college, and we don't pronounce a Cholom as a Choylom! English is the primary language in my home, and I possess a T.V. and obviously. have internet access. I wear colored shirts and slacks.
In reply to the guy who wants to know where Modern Orthodoxy differs from other denominations. I haven't missed a Shacharit minyan since sometime in the '60's (unless i was sick, or a minyan was not within 20 miles). I wear Tzitzit every day. I eat the same foods that the so called "haredim" do, but I trust the OU for everything but milk. I learn Torah every day. I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on chinuch for my kids, foregoing vacations, new cars, nice clothing, etc. Yes, my wife and daughters in law cover their heads. I'll come home sometimes, after driving a few hundred miles a day, and go to Mincha and Ma'ariv (without a jacket and hat) before I eat dinner (at this time of year, that's 9 PM). Torah and Mitzvot are very important in my "Modern Orthodox" home, and these values have
been transmitted to my children and grandchildren.
The use of the term Modern is merely an adjective used to describe individuals who manage to associate with the secular world, as well as with the world of Torah and Halacha. People who compromise on Torah (beyond the parameters of Halachically sanctioned actions) are not Modern Orthodox, they are simply doing the wrong thing! ”
Thank you for pointing out what has become the root of our problem.
As a culture, once you do not wear a hat and jacket to Daven you are automatically pasul.
What we could learn from the past week is not to judge a book by its cover.
It is hypocritical of us to ask the public not to look at the photos of the men in handcuffs and scream "look at the Rabbi" when we do the exact same thing to our brethren.
JD
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Jul 29, 2009 at 10:55 AM Damage Control Says:
I want to bring to everyone's attention a comment made by Curtis Sliwa Tues night on WABC at the end of the 9:00 hour. He said (not verbatim) You all (Syrian Jews) should go back to Syria, and let's see how Bashir Assad treats you." This is totally unacceptable and we must protest. It's like saying Go back to Germany and the gas chambers and see how Hitler will treat you. I'm asking everyone to apply pressure to him and the station to be held accountable for this anti-Semitic remark. The Program Director's email is laurie.cantillo@citcomm.com. But please be respectful and don't cause more Chillul Hashem.
Please forward this to other sites and blogs so we can make a united and loud statement.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 11:08 AM Anonymous Says:
Hope this whole ordeal should atleast bring more achdus between us, MO, Litvish Chassidish, or ultra frum.
66
Jul 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM PMO Says:
“ We, we , we.. who's we? we don't cheat, we don't lie, we don't steal. is "everybody" perfect? no. every now and then a story pops up once it happens in the non jewish siciety, once in the secular society, and also in the orthodox society.
So there's always place for improvement, especially when everybody is under the impression of the last weeks headlines.
So the symposium in Boro Park serves very well even if most people in our society are well aware of what's right and wrong, but more awareness is never too much. ”
Part of the problem is that we don't see all of this is as our collective problem. The rest of the world does.... the media does.... the non-frum world does... and we SHOULD.
It is not that we are ALL dishonest, or liars, or cheats. But some of us are. Because there have been little to no consequences in the community, many people actually flaunt their dishonest (if not criminal) behavior. As I've said, I have heard discussions over a shabbos table, in front of my children, about how to scam more money from welfare and such. I have heard people talk about how to move money around. My children hear these things. Because they are talked about without shame, without secrecy, and with a certain degree of pride in some cases, my children may begin to believe that this is OK. Even though 90+% of us lead honest, Torah lives (to the best of our ability), those few that don't can and will plant seeds in the heads of our children. I don't want my kids (a couple now in their teens) to begin thinking that just because "person X", a highly respected person in the kollel, found a doctor to forge papers that he is "disabled" so he can collect money and not work, that it is OK for them to do the same.
MY children learn not only from my behavior, but from yours as well. While I have done my best to instill a strong sense of morality and honesty, I am not with them 24x7. I don't know what their "role models" in the yeshiva are telling them. However, my kids know that they will lose my respect and the respect of their siblings if they go down the wrong path.... even if they are never 'caught'. How many children have that healthy fear?
I don't let my kids read VIN anymore. One of the main reasons is that I don't want them thinking that committing crimes, even 'small' or 'victimless' ones, is OK because if you get caught and punished it is not your fault, it is the antisemitic police, or town board, or FBI. Unfortunately, too many of the posters here write such things to the point that someone reading here for the first time might think that we just excuse all criminal behavior.
I've worked very hard to ensure that my kids have no sense of entitlement to anything. There is no such thing as a free lunch. When my kids want something, they go out and earn it. When grandparents give them money (for something other than a birthday or holiday), they know that they are required to do something for it (help them cook, clean up the yard, go shopping, etc).
I don't try to make it out like my life is so perfect. It's not... by a long shot. My kids slip sometimes... heck, I slip sometimes too, but not to the point of committing crimes. My point is that my wife and I TRY and set boundaries that we absolutely will not cross... even if we had to lose every material thing we have.
Perhaps if we all spent a little time working on these things and focusing on them, instead of making excuses (antisemitism, rogue police, etc), we really could make a difference in this area and give all of OUR kids a stronger future.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I find the broad stroke of this article particularly irking. You get a feeling of smugness and of self-righteousness emanating from many in the MO communities. This reflexive and automatic trend to condescendingly judge an entire community is nauseating. That which the MO community accuses the the 'Haredi' commuity, they do themselves: Exhibit a holier than thou attitude.
I am sick and tired of it, and I don't even consider myself Haredi.
The laissez-fair attitude towards financial ethics is a Jewish problem, not a Haredi one.But by their public pronouncement of their faith, the Haredis may be held to a higher standard than most Jews, hence the cries of anti-semitism. But while I do not believe that these investigations are motivated by anti-semitism, the sometimes less-than-scupulous behaviors by some CAN be explained by anti-semitism.
Let me explain and this not a defense or an excuse - just a study of the isssue:
For nearly two thousand years, the Jewish people have been severely persecuted and hunted down. The Poritz, the galach, the government and the laws of the land, with its impossible taxation etc, meant that the only way for survival was to beat the system; to have a "yiddishe kop". Not to, meant death. After two thousand years, this survival instinct is ingrained in our psyche and it takes effort to realize that: "Hey, we dont need to do this anymore - we can follow the law and not only survive - we can thrive!!"
Ingrained in us is mistrust for the goyim, for the police and government. It will take time - for us to heal from 2,000 years of persecution. Some of us rid ourselves of these bad survival habits, and some did not.
We do need to re-educate, to explain and to inculcate the new generations to shed this inherent mistrust and 'dreying' , and to that end, we bear full responsibility to ensure that we stop the perpetuation of these behaviors. Nevertheless, and this is not to justify it- the ROOT cause of this behaviour IS the persecution that we suffered as a people. . In this same way that there are bad behavior patterns amongst segments of the African American community due to slavery - the same is true for the Jewish one.
So let's stop the name calling, the tarring of an entire community, and lets understand and face our fears and re-educate the new generations that we can and are obligated to do better.
But, please, no more sermons from the MO about 'cheap meat' and al the rest, which, even to my non-Haredi ears, sounds alot like anti-Haredism, if not anti-semitism. Enough! ”
I apologize, but I find your post insulting. America has been the kindest to all Jews than any other country in the world, and in the history of the whole world. You stated yourself Jews have been pursicuted and chased out......has that happened in America? We treat you the same as everyone else, and much, much greater than your own country. To blame crimes you and your community may commit on acts that happended in other countries thousands of years ago is not only irresponsable, but flat out lazy. The only thing that Jews and the African-Americans have in common would be to blame things you didnt suffer through on your PERSONAL shortcomings. You need to take responsability for your actions. Period.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 11:40 AM tzoorba Says:
The last place in the world that I want to take mussar from is the anti Religious Forward which takes its legacy from the Yiddish Communist anti religious forvartz.
They certainly have no ethical standard of any value and certainly not one that should be of any interest to shomrei Torah.
If we have shortcomings, they should be addressed within our own Torah based system. The recent events are being addressed by various asifas and shmuzen among all our groups.
Torah is emes and we believe in emes. Therefore, even though violating the law is wrong, this does not take away from the anti Semitism displayed by certain government groups and their blowing certain crimes out of proportion.
We always try to fix even the most minor things, but truth requires making an honest evaluation of what transpired, neither diminishing it nor exagerating it.
69
Jul 29, 2009 at 11:29 AM Anonymous Says:
Hope this whole ordeal should atleast bring more achdus between us, MO, Litvish Chassidish, or ultra frum.
70
Jul 29, 2009 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I want to bring to everyone's attention a comment made by Curtis Sliwa Tues night on WABC at the end of the 9:00 hour. He said (not verbatim) You all (Syrian Jews) should go back to Syria, and let's see how Bashir Assad treats you." This is totally unacceptable and we must protest. It's like saying Go back to Germany and the gas chambers and see how Hitler will treat you. I'm asking everyone to apply pressure to him and the station to be held accountable for this anti-Semitic remark. The Program Director's email is laurie.cantillo@citcomm.com. But please be respectful and don't cause more Chillul Hashem.
Please forward this to other sites and blogs so we can make a united and loud statement. ”
That is his right, to say what he wants, and luckily in AMERICA we all have that and many other freedoms. If you look at all the posts on VIN, more than not state that our government is corrupt and anti-semitic ( even though all the handouts you so willingly take ) and chastise everyone who is a NON-jew. Mr. Silwa had a point, as in you complain about this country and advising stealing from it, we compare it to the country from which you came. It is an extremly valid point, and one I wish I had heard.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 05:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Enormous good and bad ???? I only see the enormous GOOD in the Haredi community. If some individuals, such as the Spinka and the five good rabbis, inadvertantly forgot to stop at a stop sign, that is not evil in any dictionary. On the contrary, not one of the rabbis is being accused of gambling at Atlantic City or being seen at a night club. No prostitute is claiming any relationship nor are the rabbis being accused of any deviant behavior. True, they violated a law and should be prosecuted, as any other citizen. Let them pay their fine and let's all of us move on. ”
Let me clarify - There is enormous good (i.e. chessed, bikur cholim, tomchei shabbos, hachnosas orchim) and some bad characteristics in every Jewish community.
Is it fair to label (stereotype) a whole community on the actions of several? I don't know. Perhaps if the community knew about it and accepts it without any opposition.
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Jul 29, 2009 at 11:35 PM Anonymous Says:
>Enron collapsed and the myriad of scandals since, no-one ever brought up race or ethnicity but as soon a Jew is caught it becomes an issue< One of their Big Three [Andrew Fastow] who went to jail was from 'unzerer'.
An ex-Navy guy I worked with told me that when people see a group all dressed the same (i.e. Chassidim), it's only natural that they all be judged as one person, much like the residents of Newport News in VA used to have signs on their lawns asking (all) sailors to stay away (because of a few bad eggs). So don't be so quick to scream, "Anteeeee-Seemite!!".