New York – Do we ever learn from our past?
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We have just lived through the saddest time of the Jewish year, when our collective thoughts turned to the destruction of our Holy Temple, and the root causes for that destruction.
The Talmudic story most often cited as painting a clear picture of that era is the one of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza. Briefly, there was an individual who hated Bar Kamtza so much that he refused any offer, no matter how generous, to spare Bar Kamtza public humiliation. This so angered Bar Kamtza that he slandered the Jewish people to the Roman authorities. The greatest source of Bar Kamtza’s rage was his consternation that many great rabbis from Jerusalem were present at his public humiliation and did nothing to protest this travesty.
In Bar Kamtza’s words, “As the rabbis saw everything, and did not protest, they obviously had no objection to my embarrassment.” Not voicing an objection, not protesting when an outrageous wrong is done, can bring about terrible consequences.
The requirement to protest stems from the Torah itself. We are commanded, “Surely shall you reproach your fellow,” “You shall remove evil from your midst,” and many other similar statements.
These admonitions to correct the wrongs of individuals and of groups are the subject of much halachic discussion as to the appropriate time, place, and methods. Nevertheless, there clearly is a tradition of protest and outcry against societal ills, especially in the holy city of Jerusalem, and particularly among those known as haredim, or fervently Orthodox. For many years now, all manner of religious lapses by the surrounding community have been protested. Some of these protests are at hafganot, or large public demonstrations, some take the form of pashkevils, oradmonitory posters that adorn billboards decrying this or that breach of standards, and some take the form of cherem, or banishment of the perpetrators.
The subjects of the various protests and bans are wide ranging and have recently included books, concerts, Internet users, and a variety of alleged wrongs. Some of these are accompanied by well-reasoned positions, some are angry screeds. A common denominator is that they seek to buttress their legitimacy by quoting as many great rabbis as possible in support of their positions. Rabbinic approval is crucial in getting one’s views heard, and thus the printed opinion of leading rabbis carries great weight and importance.
Many of the protests undertaken have been important and necessary. Having lived in Yerushalayim for many years, and having attended haredi yeshivas and a number of demonstrations, I am aware that the holiness and sanctity of the city is extraordinary, and that much of that sanctity is due to the resistance the religious community has put up against an encroaching secular culture that constantly seeks to impose its views on that community.
Nevertheless, over the past decade or so, a not insignificant number of haredi protesters have turned what might be defended as a positively motivated expression of spiritual anguish into an ugly spectacle of the worst kind of chillul Hashem. In no particular order, here are some egregious examples of this behavior:
● A few years ago, incessant weekly demonstrations at Bar Ilan Road grew ugly, with many instances of rocks being thrown at cars and police officers, who were called Nazis and pigs.
● Several Modern Orthodox women were severely beaten in Bet Shemesh for not adhering to the recently arrived haredi group’s new demands for changes in their dress code. Women who did not agree to move to the back of buses in Yerushalayim were beaten as well.
● At demonstrations for Shabbos over the past few weeks in response to the opening of a parking garage, violent protesters threw rocks at police officers and called them Nazis.
● Rav Mordechai Asher of Kiryat Yovel was severely beaten by four “avreichim” when he refused to kowtow to their demands for changes in his shul.
● Worst of all have been the recent violent acts in the matter of a haredi mother alleged to have starved her child. These included starting fires in overturned dumpsters, dismantling traffic lights (and bringing public transportation to a standstill), cutting electrical lines, and hurling of stones at the police (while calling them Nazis) – all because of a claim that police and doctors concocted the whole scenario in order to steal haredi children from their mothers and communities.
It is clear beyond a reasonable doubt that each of the above instances has done incalculable harm to kavod shamayim. When taken together, it is clear these horrible actions have destroyed any possible chance that others will see haredi Jews as anything but mindless, violent, even cruel religious fanatics who represent everything evil and reprehensible about religion.
If one investigates closely, one can find this rabbi or that one who has decried this or that demonstration as beyond the pale. But loud, public, across-the-board condemnations? They are nowhere to be found.
Where is the unified voice of our great rabbinic leaders demanding an end to the toleration of hooliganism and savagery in the name of the haredi community? When will this terrible desecration of God’s name be halted?
Where are the pashkevils, the protests, and the cherems that ought to be pronounced against the hooligans? Surely this is worthy of at least as much attention as books on science few had read before their banning or concerts deemed injurious to the spiritual health of the attendees.
What will it take for the silent majority of haredi Jews to once and for all stand up and spit the violent ones from their midst, and clearly and publicly reject and repudiate them?
When will we make sure that impressionable young yeshiva students cannot be influenced by the hooligans? I know of several cases where American bochurim were swayed by extremist rhetoric and joined forces with the out-of-control protesters, only to be punished severely by the Israeli police.
If ever there was a time to speak out for the honor of Hashem and His Torah, it is now. It is time for the majority of haredim to declare:
“We decry the terrible violence that has gone on for too long in the name of haredi Judaism. We wish to make it clear that we, the great majority of those who are called haredim, have deep fundamental disagreements with the perpetrators of these crimes. While we are not Zionists, we recognize that the State of Israel is the homeland of the largest community of Jews in the world and we pray and hope for its continued success in providing peace, security and basic services for its citizens.
“As citizens of Israel, we pay taxes, engage in business, and are grateful for the protection of the IDF and the police and recognize that with all its faults, the state has made it possible for a tremendous renaissance of Torah learning and observance. For this we are grateful.
“Please know the terrible hooligans represent only themselves and are a source of painful embarrassment and anguish to us, and that we pledge to do all we can to ensure they are marginalized and ostracized in our communities. For us, authentic Judaism means living in a way that sanctifies Hashem at all times, and that is what we seek to achieve, above all else.”
Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer is the spiritual leader of the Young Israel of Forest Hills. He can be reached at [email protected].
While you are absolutely right about the chillul hashem, please don’t use the term ‘charedim’ ad lib, since this is an obvious case of extremists at their worst.
It is a true shame that the actions of a disgruntled few should reflect upon the rest of the community, the hundreds of thousands of law abiding, jew loving charedim who would never condone such actions.
It is even more pathetic that authors like yourself help to advance this erroneousness through your misrepresentation of the facts and the parties involved.
Why do you get involved in a subject which you know about only from from reading the press that has always been anti charedi. If you would really try to get information about what is going on in Jerusalem, I am sure you would tone down. You might not agree with everything that is going on (neither do i ) but you comments would be less critical and more to the point.
People that have jobs or who truly learn – don’t have the time or the boorishness to throw stones at police and burn garbage bins. They are spawning a generation of lazy ignoramuses. Now is the time that thus issue be addressed aggressively before it is too late. Somehow, I doubt there is any motivation for introspection.
Amen
Getting musar from a non Haredi Rabbi.
What this Rabbi fails to understand is the haredi movement is split into hundreds of small factions. It’s very hard to control one faction, but hundreds is almost impossible. Despite 99.9% of haredim are good people there is always going to remain that .01% that will cause a Chilul Hashem.
Not to defend any “hooliganism” in Yerushalyim, I think it’s time to talk about the Rishess (wickedness) of the police in Yerushalyim. With a stupid mayor and a Barbaric police force and an unsympathetic press what outlet do they have?
Again I’m not for any hooliganism; but everyone would agree that they have a right to demonstrate. It is when a demonstration turns violent, where the police and mayor are NO LESS TO BLAME.
good post…its time for honorable rabbonim and askonim to stand up and say enough this is not the wat respectable people behave, let alone people that supposely adehere to the torah by the letter of the law. calling this charaidim (the ones who called another yid a nazi, or burned garbage or other sorts of violence) chazerim is a insult to chazirim….time for teshuva, when a person of any walk of life can say hey you see that chasideshe or frum person, his opr her middos, respect, manners, and dress (meaning neat and clean(not smelly,dirty or tzitzis flying) is something to be proud of. this would make a great kiddush hashem, and make hahsem and all the yidden above from previous generations proud..
This is the beginning of the end for these hareidi hooligans. When rabbonim of the stature of Rav Oppenheimer, shlita, speak out against their behavior, its just a matter of time before those shabbos protestors will be marginalized even within their own communities and severely punished for their behavior. Kol Hakovod to Rav Oppenheimer for taking such a principled stand.
While overwhelming majority of Charedim despize violence, we still may not agree to the last 3 paragraphs. The creation of a state was an act contrary to the Torah and to our national purpuse, and did not make Torah learning any easier, on the contrary, it just brought major problems and setbacks upon us
Typical one sided slanderous article, exaggerating a few isolated stories, blowing it up to draw a “shreklacher” picture of all charedim.
There may have been a few cases of misbehavior by some charedim, but that does not label all charedim to be extreme or violent, most charedim are well civilized and well mannered, busy with torah and chesed rather than other stuff.
Rabbi Oppenheimer,
Thank you for your article; it is rabbonim like you who make me proud to be frum! Yirbu komoscha b’Yisrael !
I would add, that there is another parallel to the gemera in Gittin. It is the need to “remove the snake, without harming the barrel”, which is what the gemara says that R. Yochanon Ben Zakkai should have told Vespasian.
How can such an operation be done? How can one keep in place the wonderful, peaceful Jews of Meah Shearim, but remove the violent elements holding them hostage?
In order to stop Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov students in Israel from attending concerts, the “Committee for Jewish Music” threatened to photograph anyone in attendance.
I can accept the fact that some feel concerts are unacceptable, but why not use the same against those who create violence? The threats against using photographs against those attending concerts would seemingly contradict the claim that the violent individuals–adults or children– can not be controlled.
Use photographs to capture the violent adults in Ramat Beit Shemesh and publish them on the internet with their names, as a last step, if all else fails!
To balance my comments, I would like to quote something positive which has inspired me, as there as also so much negativity in the media, these past weeks:
R. Asher Lopitan, a modern-Orthodox rabbi, had published a critique of the Jerualem riots on Vos iz Nais and in other sources. The American Yated took him to task for the article( although I had no problem with the original article). Included in the critique was an invitation to visit Meah Shearim.
R. Lopitan writes on his blog:
“At the same time, I am gratified that beyond the issues of Hilul Hashem and Kiddush Hashem, the invitation to Me’ah She’arim from USA Yated Neeman editor Rabbi Pinchas Lipschutz was sincere, and we have been in touch, and I look forward to meeting with him, and eventually being in Me’ah She’arim together. This is a new relationship with a leader in the Yeshivishe world that I hope to foster, and I am grateful for it.”
He also includes advice that anyone can learn from:
“But I understand, that especially when being critical of my brothers and sisters, I need to be humble and modest , avoiding any sarcasm and certainly not relishing in critique. The truth is that if the message is right and true, it will get heard without being “in your face” and sensational. I was happy that my ideas were picked up by many different outlets, but I feel that since it was a message of rebuke, tocheicha, I need to work harder to make sure not to feel even one shemetz – one iota – of satisfaction of taking on a community and its leadership”.
All of the above has nothing to do with correct or incorrect hashkafos, or who is right and wrong, and therefore can be accepted by anyone.
………..”At demonstrations for Shabbos over the past few weeks in response to the opening of a parking garage, violent protesters threw rocks at police officers and called them Nazis.”……
For once and for all: Protest and demonstration is one thing, and violence after protest is another thing.
The rabbonim never called for violence, they condemn it all the time, some yeshivos are taking very serious action if they hear that one or some of their bochurim were present when violence took place.
The violence of setting garbage on fire and breaking street lights are done by no more than 20-50 individuals, youngsters, some of them wouldn’t even consider themselves charedim other than taking part in “protests aftermath”, some are official shabavniks, or bochurim with no yeshiva and no home and troubled people.
While at the protests there are thousands and sometimes tens of thousand participants.
this article is giving a wrong impression, based on a few israeli media reports he’s painting hundreds of thousands of people throughout the globe to be extremist, because “an Israeli paper” said so on a few individuals.
Once again, the press publishes sheker mamash.  220;several women were severely beaten in Bet Shemesh 221;? What is he talking about? ONE young woman was chased and kicked down and spat on. YES THIS IS DISGUSTING BEHAVIOR FROM MEN, ESPECIALLY RELIGIOUS MEN WEARING CAFTANS; and yes the Rabbanim in Bet Shemesh have failed to denounce the people who are making a chilul Hashem.
However, it is very important that we do not exaggerate and say sheker mamash.
As  220;Yossi 221;, #8 , said, these examples are from extremists who are performing gross aveiros. There are far more frum Yidden NOT participating in the Hafganos who do not support the extremely dangerous violent behavior.
“What will it take for the silent majority of haredi Jews to once and for all stand up and spit the violent ones from their midst, and clearly and publicly reject and repudiate them?”
He quotes kamtza and bar kamtza then asks for a public censure of the rioters. Interesting.
“I know of several cases where American bochurim were swayed by extremist rhetoric and joined forces with the out-of-control protesters, only to be punished severely by the Israeli police.”
He characterizes the rioters as “extremist” and “out-of-control” and then the Israeli police restore order. He obviously only reads what the anti-religious press writes and does not investigate the facts. The Israeli police incited the peaceful protestors, which unfortunately led to the unexcused actions of the rioters. Being ignorant on facts and then writing an article is pathetic.
“If one investigates closely, one can find this rabbi or that one who has decried this or that demonstration as beyond the pale. But loud, public, across-the-board condemnations? They are nowhere to be found.”
Again, he only reads the anti-religious secular progressive press and then makes an inane comment.
“While we are not Zionists, we recognize that the State of Israel is the homeland of the largest community of Jews in the world and we pray and hope for its continued success in providing peace, security and basic services for its citizens.”
He is really out of touch. Just because the mi shebearach for the medinah is the highlight of shabbos in your shul does not mean it is the same everywhere. You seem to be a bit small minded.
“As citizens of Israel, we pay taxes, engage in business, and are grateful for the protection of the IDF and the police and recognize that with all its faults, the state has made it possible for a tremendous renaissance of Torah learning and observance”
Huh? Everything here is utter nonsense, especially when refering to the meah shaerim crowd.
Peaceful protests in Israel have proven unsuccessful against the secular police and judges who are out to destroy religious Jews. In the case of this innocent woman in Jerusalem, how would this Rabbi have gotten her out of jail when it was tried for an entire week quietly and peacefully and the police were adamant in their refusal to release her? Easy to talk if you’re not the innocent accused.
The violence in Israel “always” begins after the police brutalities against the peaceful protesters. This is the way Pidyon Shevuim must be performed in probably one of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world.
What a true Kiddush Hashem to see how chareidi Jews would allow themselves to get beaten up by police as long as the woman gets released. Where else would you find such Ahavat Yisrael but by chareidim in Israel? Kol Hakavod to the Chareidim. They should just keep up it up!
he is right who do not see the same condemnation of these protest as you see about concerts and other stuff
why are their no posters sign by many robinioun condemning or banning violent demonstration like they do for every other thing think is wrong, because they do not think it is wrong or maybe it serves a purpose.
There is quite a difference between the sages who failed to protest in the case of Bar Komtza, and the sages who remain silent concerning our current events. In the case of Bar Komtza, the sages witnessed first hand the improper and harmful behavior. In the case of the current events, there were no sages present to witness the claims of improper behavior. Therefore: 1. They can not be held responsible or obliged to protest that which they did not see, and 2. It is virtually impossible for the sages to investigate and find out what really did happen. The sages of today do not have the authority to do this as did the sages in the era of Bar Komtza. Today it is the police and the courts who have the power and authority to investigate.
A sage, or any Jew for that matter is forbidden to believe any of these rumors that the author of this article is suggesting. Would that the claims against the charedi community be true (and not exaggerated, distorted, or described leaving out important facts), it is a severe sin to spread such information even from one individual to the next. But to slander the charedi community and its rabbonem on such a grand scale on the internet is the worst possible sin. Certainly nothing one would expect from a “rabbi”.
Since this rabbi gives such deference to the police and secular media, did he make the same comments during the Gaza disengagement or Amona? Specifically with Amona where 83 policemen went to the hospital. Did he criticize the leadership or the rioters? Did he defend the rioters as legitimate? Did he make the reference to Bar kamtza?
Seems like this individual gives a lot of deference to the secular media when non-Zionists misbehave. What about the Zionists, which based on this article, this rabbi holds near and dear?
It seems sides are being taken here. I prefer not to take sides rather to see them as they are. Rioting achieves very little albeit the forces they come against seem to take unwarrented liberties as a few writers claim. That could be true, although non religious people really despise people who claim to be rightious and act like fools embarressing themselves and who they represent through their irresponsible actions. The outcome is severe chilul Hashem and very little mitigation between anybody religious and non religious, is therefore achieved. There is no doubt that there is hatred towards hareidim in Israel, I live in Israel and observe it. Additionally I consider myself to be some what hareidi i.e I daven in hareidi institutions. That being said, to get on my high horse and say all hareidim are fools like the protesters make us appear, at least from the point of view of the secular media, would be a mistake as the secular media does paint the hareidim in a less than optomistic picture, to say it politely. From both points of view there are major prejudices in viewing the situation and neither side is giving an accurate objective assessment. Rather we will be Judged by the One who sees all on an individual and communal basis.
“The sages of today do not have the authority to do this as did the sages in the era of Bar Komtza. “
Why not form a “Committee for Kiddush Hashem”, just as there is a “Committee for Jewish Music” and many other rabbinical vaadim? These committees certainly have authority!
I repeat my point in comment # 9 that threats were made to photograph anyone attending a Jewish Music concert(reported on 4/13/08 on “Chaderi Chadorim”).
Also, the children of mothers who don’t dress appropriately are not allowed in various chadorim. Rabbonim don’t have authority?
If the point is that the Kannoim of Ramat Beit Shemesh–adults– are not answerable to anyone and will not be deterred, then photograph them and bring in the police.
There is someone in the Eidah responsible for stirring up the streets and printing pashkervillim; publicize their names!
The answer that the community can’t do anything is an abdication of responsibility, and an admission that lawlessness will prevail in society from time to time. If the community abdicates responsibility, then bring in outsiders to enforce the law.
If things are being done quietly to improve things, then perhaps a way should be found to communicate this.
i want everyone to go you tube and watch the videos of the police in amona beating up other yidden
your comment is a total cop-out
1.Our recognized Sages are our teachers our leaders and are difinitly responsible to teach and preach how a Yid conducts himself in private and in public otherwise they are just plonim or Stam Yiddin and not Sages.
2. a)Just the opposite it is virtually impossible with todays technology to not be able to investigate and see first hand what chillul Hashem is being perpertrated. b)The Sages of today have the power to put an end to the hooligans (Beryoinim) more than they did in time of the 2nd bayis.
3 The author is not suggesting anything. The behavior of these hooligans was caught on camera and video even if it was only a few people the word CHAREDIM means “Group” where all who are present are collectivlly responsible for each others action.
4. Nobody slandered any Rabbonim. There is nothing to slander when there is no action. M’Harav Sternbuch who did speak out against the violence was vilified on the streets of Geulah and Meah Shearim by hooligans.
What you are suggesting is tantamount to saying let the hooligans do what they do in public dressed in the way we dress that identifies us as supposed chassidim and timimim and zeh hu.
Ignorance is bliss …right?
“There are some people that only understand force. You have to understand that one egg on one girl can deter dozens” said Yosef Bruen, a 25-year-old ultra-Orthodox man. “We came here to establish a neighborhood that would be ‘extreme’ haredi. We won’t allow anyone to disturb that, whoever it may be.”
This is a quote from a Jewish Week article of 12/23/2008, by a person defending the attack on a Modern Orthodox girl walking with some friends in Bet Shemesh. Even if only a dozen more hold this opinion in either Mea Shearim or Bet Shemesh, who commenting on this thread would dare defend this hooligan (yes! that’s what he is) and still call yourself a Shomer Torah u’Mitvot?
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem!
most comments are missing the point– Rabbi Oppenheimer is not the one painting our community in a bad light– Haredim are getting constant bad press and we must do something to counter it– If Rav Shternbuch of the Eida Haredis can publish a letter protesting the violence which follows most demonstrations, why don’t the rest of the prominent Rabbonim do the same?
WHH
To #19 , There are a few exaggerations used as primary examples, not only the one you noticed. But rather than get into the specifics about why his report is flawed, I think it is important to point out to everyone the problem of reading news reports and then standing on a soapbox waxing poetic about all the wrongs of Jewish Orthodox Society. There is an extremely negative focus in the news about religious Jews in E.Y. without scrutiny or attention to the facts.To call all news reports here unbalanced or disproportionate would be a gross understatement. There is much here to be proud of which is hidden from the public eye and can only be experienced by dwelling here in the Holy Land. Please American Jews, refrain from rushing to condemn your brothers in E.Y. I highly doubt that American Jewry could survive this deplorable treatment by the press. Having lived for 15 years in Israel and 20 years in the U.S. from coast to coast I can say in all honesty Jewish life in Eretz Yisroel is Holier, more wholesome, moral and ethical than any American counterpart, even with its perceived mishugas.
RABBI : its either you are right or wrong nothing in between.
making autopsy’s (neticha meizem)
drafting girls to army (giyas bunos)
opening supermarket on shobbos,
opening parking lot on shobbos.
taking away a child from a mother.
all above is an ongoing effort to cause anger upon charedim.
now know who is WRONG only one
side.
The author of the article begins with the story of Bar Komtza to demonstrate the obligation that the sages have to publicly condemn bad behavior. He then suggests that the rabbonem in our generation are guilty of failing to fulfill this obligation:
“If one investigates closely, one can find this rabbi or that one who has decried this or that demonstration as beyond the pale. But loud, public, across-the-board condemnations? They are nowhere to be found.”
In summary, in the opinion of the author, the sages of our generation are not fulfilling their obligation to publicize their condemnation of actions that the secular media have condemned.
Would it be true, that our sages have such an obligation, he should try rebuking the sages face to face, and privately. However, slandering them in public is a terrible sin. And if they are not obligated as such, then publicizing that our sages fail to fulfill their “obligations” is motzie shem ra!
WHH
To #20 . The term “Chareidi” is a political statement. Chareidim dwell together in groups to bring strength to their communities, they block vote according to interests, different Chareidi groups however often have conflicting interests, they are committed to strict Torah observance of the Mitzvot and are supportive in every way to continuing education in Torah Study, They can be identified by their distinctive dress. Some support the State some do not. Chareidim are most definitely NOT as you describe them to paraphrase: “any one who is orthodox and who practices hooliganism. A leaderless people.” This is a foolish and naive description and deserves much more contemplation on your part.
To #29 Shmilku. You need help, man. All your raving opinions are recorded in a book.
Yea #24 and 27!Your wonderful posts and Intelligent analysis is much needed here, which is clearly not reflective of the tremendous gifts of our nation. With Brochos to All!
no youre the root of the problem youre inability to think critically is the problem youre encoureging violence is the the problem youre writing with such indiference is the problem and its a true hillel hashem not a kiddush hashem.
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If the chareidim are unhappy with the police, the hospitals and the IDF, then let them become policeman, doctors and soldiers and participate in running the country. Any idiot can just compalin, throw stones and burn garbage.
Dear Rabi Oppenheimer,
I think a major distinction can be made between the ” books on science few had read before their banning or concerts deemed injurious to the spiritual health of the attendees” and the hooligan rioting.
The bans issued by the leading Rabbi’s are geared toward their congregations. They are directed to those holy members that follow the words of the Rabbis. The decrees are necessary precisely because it would be easy for an unsuspecting member of the community to feel that the book/concert/food in question was not problematic at all. In matter of fact, if you read the comments on blogs such as these, the Rabbis are slandered and insulted mercilessly for saying that these items are forbidden. The decrees are meant to educate not for PR purposes. The type of decree that you are asking for is a Public Relations ad directed to members outside of their community. It is designed so that the non observant be told that we do not condone this behavior. I do not argue that it is a bad idea. I simply state that it is a different goal or purpose then tending to their own congregation. The rioters themselves would surely not listen. A Yerushalayim Rabbi coming out with a statement condemning the riot would be implying that his disciples are in someway a party to the events, which would be untrue.
I sympathize with your pain at the Chilul Hashem, but I don’t think laying blame at the feet of the sages of Jerusalem is correct or helpful. The hooligans are Rabbi-less and leaderless.
“The rioters themselves would surely not listen…. I sympathize with your pain at the Chilul Hashem, but I don’t think laying blame at the feet of the sages of Jerusalem is correct or helpful. The hooligans are Rabbi-less and leaderless.”
I agree it’s different than banning a book, and Rabbonim can choose when they feel speaking out is effective.
Perhaps community groups should issue condemnations, if whatever reason Rabbonim don’t feel it effective.
We know that Satmar and Agudah spoke out against Neturie Karta.
Why not form a “Committee of Rabbis for Kiddush Hashem”, just like for Shabbos, and Modesty ?
Clearly to stop violence one needs more than a public statement. But the community can start by photographing those who particpate and not allowing their children in schools. The former was threatened against those who go to concerts, and the latter, against mothers who don’t dress appropriately.
Sadly I must tell you that the DECISION to take to the strreets rather than petition the courts in the Hadassah and the child-starving-mother case was made by the Eidah Charedis’ hanhalah with the direction of the Gavad harav Weiss. He felt that this was “redifas hadas” and only street protests would be appropriate! So much for my emunas chachamim.
WHH
to#64 Shmilku
Seeing as you speak Yiddish fluently, I assume you have been raised by someone with Yiras Shemayim although it might not be apparent to us here. Surely you must be aware that those videos were shot on Shabbos and that it is forbidden to see them on YouTube or anywhere else? No Shomer mitzvos would watch those clips here in Eretz Yisroel, but it seems you regard yourself as a higher authority, above the sanctity and hilchos of Shabbos. Hatred is a very destructive force and can destroy even a decent persons best intentions.
Dear Friends,
I have enjoyed seeing all the many comments that have been posted here in the short time since this essay was made available. I am glad that it has caused much discussion because that is precisely what I am trying to do – generate a discussion that will result in a loud, public, and unified condemnation of the hooligans for all the terrible Chillul Hashem that they are causing.
While I am not going to respond here to every point raised, I do want to state the following:
1) In the article I was careful to say that I am not condemning all Chareidim, the vast majority of whom are in fact the “hundreds of thousands of law abiding, jew loving charedim who would never condone such actions” (#8). On the contrary, I wrote because I am pained that those hundreds of thousands are being smeared in the media by the brush offered up by the hooligans. The media does not say “A small minority last night did such and such”. They say, “once again, THE CHAREIDIM rioted and ….”
2) Speaking of the media, yes, of course they are biased and slanted and often present an anti-Chareidi point of view. But that is the reality of the world that we live in. The overwhelming majority of people will hear of these events not through apologists like those posting here, but through the media. And it terrible when the media are given red meat by idiots calling the police Nazis, saying “Go back to Germany”, throwing rocks, etc. We need to be smart. We need to embody the posuk,
ושמרתם ועשיתם כי הוא חכמתכם ובינתכם לעיני העמים אשר ישמעון את כל החקים האלה ואמרו רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה:
When some purporting to represent us behave in ways that are reprehensible, we need to speak out and clearly disassociate ourselves from it. If we do not, we cannot blame the media for confusing the facts.
3) It is true that the police in Israel are very tough – I have been there when they charge a crowd with horses and batons and show little or no mercy. They have to be that way in their main job, defending the country from murderous terrorists. So how do you expect them to react when stones are thrown, they are called Nazis (never excusable to call any Jew by that term, no matter what), and taunted and mocked? It is a two way street.
I don’t excuse their behavior at Amona, and other places, which was awful and abominable. (#31). But that has nothing to do with this. The majority of Israeli police are just doing their job, and would not be violent if they were not repeatedly provoked.
4) I take the comments of Yonason Herschlag seriously, and I wish that my article was not necessary, and that there was another way that change could be affected than “going public”. I wish that the Rabbis had protested by now. I wish that, rather than this Rosh Yeshiva instructing his Talmidim, and that Rebbe speaking to his Chassidim, there had been a loud public condemnation. But it has not happened. And I do not think that my voice alone, or even together with some friends, would be able to cause this to happen, as it is not me or any other individual who can bring this about. If our leaders do not lead, the troops must speak up and implore them to do so. And I hope this article will help in that regard.
5) For those who say that there is no other way, that only violence will work in Israeli society, they are wrong. Besides, of course, the directive that
דרכיה דרכי נעם וכל נתיבתיה שלום, the fact is that in many places where non-violent methods have been tried they have worked beautifully. The tremendous kiruv work that is having so much good effect is taking place because frum jews are speaking to thir non-frum brothers, instead of shouting at them. There was a beautiful article a few months ago in HaModia about the way that Rav Yisroel Meir Lau did so much for Shabbos in Netanya, (which is not a frum city) but where respect abounds.
6) Another point that will require a whole other article is regarding differences within the Chareidi world. I will not address it here. But I will remind readers that no matter the internal divisions, we are all tarred by the same brush.
7) Finally, in regard to the mother at Haddassah, here is what a close friend of mine, who is a frum doctor at Haddassah, had to say,
“This woman is being charged in court for abuse of her child (starvation). There is NO WAY it would have gotten this far if there was no truth to this story. The system would have to be entirely mad to take her to court without knowing that they have a solid case with proof.
Hadassah is and always has been very vigilant about picking up child abuse. As sad as it sounds I believe these accusations to be true. Hadassah has nothing to gain and everything to lose from a cover up.”
I leave it at that.
One thing is for sure. The riots have not helped her case, but they have caused irreparable harm to Kovod Shamayim.
I close with a hope for אהבת ישראל
Yehuda L. Oppenheimer
ok, so the establishment of the State of Israel is against the torah? So is it better for jews to hang around Europe , till they are marched into the ovens or shot in the head? So its ok, to stay in Europe as our Rabbis recommended in the 1930′, that’s according to the torah? some haredim are metally sick masochists in my opinion.
With all due respect, and I do mean that sincerely, Americans cannnot and do not understand the interpersonal and intercommunity dynamics and the mindsets of the people and the political messages or meanings that things done here in eretz Yisroel carry. They are simply in a completely different milieu, and in a word: clueless.
The Israeli rabbis for the most part – even those not affiliated with Toldos Aharon or the Eidah, even mizrachi – have not spoken out. True. It is not because they don’t care, but because they simply understand something American rabbis do not.
Can I humbly propose that American rabbis not voice an opinion (unless its on a black-and-white halachic issue, or on theoretical halacha) on Israeli current event and the same goes for Israeli rabbis commenting on something that one needs to understand Americans in order to reallly understand.
I have no problem hearing their opinion per se, but to give someone a world podium, as the vosizniess is, can only be justified if the person writing the editorial is an expert on the subject. In my humble opinion, an American is almost by-definition un-expert on any subject dealing with internal Israeli politics.
To all of the rationalizers and defenders of the goings-on in Meah Shearim, I would like to point you to a conversation that Jonathan Rosenblum had with Rabbi Shlomo Pappenheim shlit’a, a veteran leader of the Eidah Hachareidis in Meah Shearim (whom I’ve made reference to in comment no. 69).
Even though he sympathizes with their cause, Rabbi Pappenheim expressed his vigorous opposition to the demonstrations, which he feels have been a total disaster. How in particular?
(a) The demonstrations almost inevitably turn violent because no one can control the demonstrators, and violence is a “tool of Eisav,”
(b) Violence leaves a negative spiritual mark on those involved and delays the final redemption,
(c) If the secular population becomes convinced that it is impossible to live together with Chareidim then violence guarantees their resistance to Chareidi causes at all costs, and
(d) Violence damages the Torah and Hashem, k’v’yachol, by making Torah appear as something ugly and violent to the larger Jewish world. Therefore, those who hunger for the words of Hashem will not seek it among us, but in foreign pastures.
These opinions are very encouraging, coming as they does from a Meah Shearim Chareidi leader [see “Shooting Ourselves in the Foot — Again,” Cross-Currents, July 24, 2009, for the original article].
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Finally, Rabbi Oppenheimer’s response to this thread’s commenters (no. 66) is beautiful. All those who attempted to cast aspersions on the Rav should be ashamed of themselves. He has answered his critics with a degree of derech eretz and ahavas Yisrael that we should all emulate. Klal Yisrael needs more leaders like him (outside of Meah Shearim) and Rabbi Pappenheim (inside of Meah Shearim). Kol HaKovod to both of these distinguished rabbonim.
Rabbi Oppenheimer … nice article uncle!
Rabbi Oppenheimer wrote: “Hadassah is and always has been very vigilant about picking up child abuse. As sad as it sounds I believe these accusations to be true.”
It appears that the rabbi imagines that it is permitted to “believe” the accusations to be true, from what the Chafitz Chaim writes (Hilchos Loshan Hora Klal vov sif yud): “If there is solid evidence backing up the claims to be true, …and if it is impossible to judge the accused to the side of merit, it is permitted to believe.”
However, I suggest for all to read a very important paragraph there (Be’er Mayim Chaim, sif chof heh): “In regards for the permission to believe accusations to be true, this is only permitted if believing he information has a tangeble purpose for the listner’s future, as for example in order to protect oneself from being harmed by the accused, …for if not, even listening is forbidden (and all the more so is believing forbidden).”
And of course, as the Rabbi in Forest Hills does not have to protect himself from being harmed by this women in Jerusalem (even if she would come to Forest Hills, and try to starve the rabbi), therefore, even would the rabbi be privy to hard evidence first hand from two kosher witnesses, and even if there would be no way to justify the actions they claim she did, it is still forbidden for the rabbi to believe that she’s guilty.
May I suggest we all steer clear of believing loshon hora, as the Chafitz Chaim wrote (Klal vov sif alef): It is forbidden to receive loshon hora, … that is, to believe in our hearts that the story is true, … and our sages taught, that anyone who receives loshon hora is worthy to be thrown to the dogs…”
“With all due respect, and I do mean that sincerely, Americans cannnot and do not understand the interpersonal and intercommunity dynamics and the mindsets of the people and the political messages or meanings that things done here in eretz Yisroel carry”
That seems to be part of the issue.
At some level, my impression is that the Israeli communities, especially the Eidah, are “at war” with the government. I agree 100% that the frum position has merit, that “they” are attacking us, although this may change from period to period with governments.
So when you are “at war”, you don’t make public pronouncements emphasizing a position of calmness; making nice is not a way to negotiate with an adversary!
Problem with the above is that you will be seen as having conceded responsibility for the Charedi violence. Yes, Rav Shternbuch and R. Finkel condemned the violence, but the *appearance* is that the Eidah gets some sort of bargining leverage position out of the threat of the “street” being out of control.
“Can I humbly propose that American rabbis not voice an opinion (unless its on a black-and-white halachic issue, or on theoretical halacha) on Israeli current event and the same goes for Israeli rabbis commenting on something that one needs to understand Americans in order to reallly understand.”
That’s true, but it’s an international issue.
It affects the image of Jews everwhere, especially at a time when we have the monetary scandels. This is besides the fact that the Charedi public relies on non-Charedim in the USA, as Ezra Friedlander wrote.
The Eidah, in my opinion, must learn that it has limits, and must interact with the rest of the frum world to a greater extent(yes, I know of the wonderful chessed).
True, it’s a few *adult* violent crazies in Ramat Beit Shemesh, and social issues of relating with Hadasah, but the Eidah, in my opinion, must learn that it is not a self-contained unit, and should care about the image of international Jewry.
The Eidah uses cameras to monitor plants growing in Arab fields, when halachically necessary. So technology, photographing miscreants, renders “we can’t do anything” questionable. Work with the police–yes, from the Medinah, if necessary.
Fundamentally, protesting in Yerushalayim is seen as important because keeping quiet implies assent, and Hashem might bring punishment, cv’s,(eg, “and your camp should be holy, etc.”). One needs a zechus, merit, to live surrounded by Arabs, and we *all* need to preserve the zechusim.
But that must be balanced with the image of world-wide Jewry.
Let’s assume that it is only a handful of hooligans engaging in violence. So what?? does that mean their actions should not be addressed. We have built yeshivas, collected millions of dollars and listened and read hundreds of speeches and articles for kids at risk (while they too are a tiny percentage of the frum population!! so obviously its not about the numbers, its about the pain (like the Brisker rov said “If it hurts you krechts” I guess it doesn’t hurt enough!!!
Let’s assume that it is only a handful of hooligans engaging in violence. So what?? does that mean their actions should not be addressed. We have built yeshivas, collected millions of dollars and listened and read hundreds of speeches and articles for kids at risk (while they too are a tiny percentage of the frum population!! so obviously its not about the numbers, its about the pain (like the Brisker rov said “If it hurts you krechts” I guess it doesn’t hurt enough!!!
I would like to ask Rabbi Oppenhaimer what is his way to deal with the desecration of jewish burial sites by the antiquities dept of isreal which has been going on for over half a century no matter wehther it was tannaim and amoraim in bet shearim in 1957 or still going on today in meron and other areas
No amount of negotiations and diplomacy, and there has been huge amounts of it,has worked
They have always come with empty promises and lies and only demonstrations have helped
The same goes for when bodies were cut up and the organs sold to science and the bodies filled with rags and sewen up and given back to families,again only demonstrations stopped this vile practice
What about the hundreds of “dead” teymani chilren?
What stopped these atrocious crimes that no other country has ever commited except I dare say germany?(We won’t tlak about davka putting a cinema in mea shearim as that a goy does not understand but these issues any religious goy understands)
And what stopped them
Only .MESIRAS NEFESH protests worked.like sitting on the ground as in your picture above and laying down in front of tractors to stop the grave digging. because deplomacy NEVER worked as all one received back was lies and more lies for without torah that is emes you get SHEKER
A member of my shul (chareidi) was in Yerushalayim for a family simcha. He was sitting in his parked car, when some protesters set fire to a dumpster and sent it rolling, right in his direction. If not for the quick-wittedness of a nearby driver, who jumped out and pushed it away …
This is pikuach nefesh. These people are rodfim. They pose a real danger to everyone there, to you and me. Do we need to wait until chas vesholom something bad happens?
In former times the rotzchim would have been ordered to be put to death by any means possible, niten lehatzilo benafsho. At the very least, we can expect a pashkvilin …
Some people think because they on the outside their l’vush is that of a chasid what happens beyond that doesn’t matter any more.
The other (non-chasid or a non observant jew) is a nothing.
Being honest in business or being a mentch especially towards others even non-jews or cheating the government is not important and anyone should dare to criticize them is a an apikores.
The problem is that many of these chasidim fight (physically) against each other too causing a tremendous chilul hashem. Look at the papers in NY where frum people have been way too often in the papers to cause a chilul hashem and everyone justifies it to themselves in their own shilchon aruch or choshen mishpat as long as on the outside they look frum.
When a person is found to have made a mistake, if he is a servant of G-d, he will admit his mistake like Yehudah did, and make better his way. If the person is unjustly accused of a mistake, and he wants to prove his rightseousness, he should do just that. But simply discrediting the person who accused him will only be a sufficient defense if the accuser is giving false witness. However, if there is no debate over the facts of what the accused did, but rather only debate on whether or not that deed is a transgression or permitted act, then deligitimizing the person who argues that the deed is forbidden is irrelevant to the defense of the person who commited the act, and is merely an act of vengence, anger, hatred, and loshon hora.