New York - Tuition or Mortgage: Choosing Public School Over Yeshiva |
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News Source: The Jewish Star By Mayer Fertig
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New York - After years of talk about a tuition crisis, many families that scrimped and sacrificed to send children to yeshiva in the past have hit a financial wall.
“Many children will end up in public school as a result of all this,” said Rabbi Shneur Wolowik, director of Chabad of the Five Towns. He says he is inundated with calls for help from parents who simply have run out of options.
“Parents have to choose between having a home foreclosed on or having a Jewish education. It’s a very tough decision,” he acknowledged.
An email he received this week from a woman in the Five Towns outlined her situation: “They have two children, she’s pregnant with a third, they’ve all but canceled the babysitter, have two old cars and a very simple home. She said it’s either tuition or their home and they can’t be homeless. She did the numbers with me and, unfortunately, she’s right.”
The children are now registered in public school.
The mother of a 17 year-old girl told The Jewish Star, “I registered my daughter in public school yesterday… I can’t begin to tell you what that moment was. It was horrific.”
The girl, who lives with her mother in the Five Towns, had gone to yeshiva her whole life. Her father, who is legally obligated to pay tuition according to the terms of a divorce decree, nonetheless elected to stop paying just before her senior year in high school and her mother lacked the means to pay it alone. Yeshiva officials insisted that the tuition must be paid anyway.
“I really understood their point of view,” the mother said , “but there has to be a way.”
In this case, there was.
“When I told my parents I’m not fighting this anymore, I’m just putting [their granddaughter] in public school, they hit the roof,” the mother related.
Her parents “called in all their trump cards,” and exerted enough pressure that the school reversed its decision. An attorney friend will represent the mother at trial to try to force her ex-husband to pay up.
“What if someone doesn’t have the kind of family I have, who can hustle and bustle and make miracles?” she wondered. “I love my children but they’re not worth more than somebody else’s.”
“Rabbi Wolowik described approaching a man on behalf of a family in tuition crisis, who already pays his own hefty tuition bill. The man took out a home equity loan in order to help.”
Most schools contacted by The Jewish Star said they did not know of any students who would attend public school on account of a family’s inability to pay tuition.
Hebrew Academy of Nassau County (HANC) expects “to have a school full of children for this coming year, despite these tough times,” said President Lillian Borofsky. Any family that requires assistance would receive it, she said.
“That’s always been the policy and I would imagine it’s always been the policy in most yeshivot. I mean, come on, that’s the business we’re in.”
But it seems clear that some parents whose backs are to the wall financially are being forced to make nearly impossible decisions.
“I have seen families decide which children are going to remain in yeshiva based on age group,” said Mark Honigsfeld, co-president of Hebrew Academy of Five Towns and Rockaway (HAFTR). “There has been an emphasis on grade school and middle. Parents say, ‘I need my kid to have a foundation.’ You can educate two lower school kids for the price of one high school kid. You get more bang for your buck.”
HAFTR is facing “desperate situations” that in previous years were solved by fund raising. “In the past there were always a couple of families who quietly, lishma [for its own sake], said, ‘O.K., I’ll take care of it,” he said. Now, “it’s like the perfect storm.” Families that always paid full tuition and contributed to the scholarship campaign themselves have lost jobs and are struggling.
“We must take care of those families first,” Honigsfeld said firmly. “Difficult decisions that have never had to be made by the past two generations by HAFTR, on the finance side, must be made. We are, in essence, playing G-d: who is going to stay and who is going to go.”
He couldn’t quantify how many children who otherwise might have attended HAFTR or other yeshivas would instead attend public school, but Honigsfeld said HAFTR is examining the possibility of opening an afternoon Judaic studies program.
“It used to be called Talmud Torah,” he said, referring to the after-school learning program that educated generations of Jews before the advent of yeshivas and day-schools. “We’re exploring it. I don’t know if there’s a need for it. We’ve heard from other yeshivas that they are experiencing similar situations and, although I don’t have direct knowledge from other schools of families that have left, we’ll know in September.” If there’s a true need then a HAFTR afternoon program could be pulled together to begin right after the holidays, he said.
In Merrick, an Orthodox shul, Congregation Ohav Shalom, has operated an afternoon Judaic studies program for many years to service families in the community that send their children to public school. This year more than a dozen new students from the Five Towns, and at least one from West Hempstead — most were yeshiva students — plan to attend.
“Every parent that speaks to me, I tell them, your kid belongs in Yeshiva,” said Dr. Mel Isaacs, the principal of Ohav Shalom’s after-school program, and the former director of education for HANC. “It’s very disheartening that they’re taking them out. On the other hand, you have to provide a service. The kids can’t go into a vacuum. It’s my hope that as soon as this financial crisis winds down they’re going to put their kids back in [yeshiva].”
In the meantime, Isaacs, a Long Beach resident whose after-school program stresses helping children “feel good about their Jewish-ness,” plans to supplement the regular curriculum of Siddur study and the weekly Torah portion. Students newly transferred from yeshivas will be taught Chumash on grade level; fifth and sixth graders will learn Mishna. The school will also participate in the Chidon Tanach competition as it used to do many years ago; once the school fielded a winner who went on to compete in Israel.
Several Orthodox families spoke to The Jewish Star about their experiences sending children to public school instead of yeshiva.
“It was a really difficult decision,” said the mother of a 4-year-old boy who required occupational, physical and speech therapies. “We were on the fence pretty much until the day before school started. We enrolled him in both places.”
Her older children are in yeshiva but she was afraid her 4-year-old would “slip through the cracks” in a yeshiva pre-school. She had planned to send him to public school for just one year; he’s registered in yeshiva for September.
A Long Beach family with nine children that moved from Los Angeles in 1994 placed two of the children in public school to obtain special ed services, explained their mother, Debbie Wapniak, in an interview. The older one, now 25, is a married mother of two with a Masters degree in special education; and her brother, 22, attends college and is studying for semicha at Yeshiva Shor Yoshuv in Lawrence.
“I got him tutors in Hebrew. It’s not like he didn’t learn. He was bar mitzvah-ed; we’re shomer Shabbos,” Wapniak said. “But we had to teach him at home until he was able to get a chavrusa [study partner]. There was no Talmud Torah for him to go to. That really ticked me off. There should be a Talmud Torah for kids who can’t go to yeshiva.”
Elaine and Marty Wiener of Woodmere hosted an open house last week for families to learn about the after-school program in Merrick. They were preparing to marry off their daughter Allyson on Tuesday, a day after Elaine spoke briefly with a reporter.
“This is not in lieu of yeshiva,” she stressed. “These are the kids who are forced to go into public school either because of financial reasons or learning reasons.”
“When you’re in a financial bind and your back is against the wall are you going to send your kids to yeshiva or are you going to put chicken on the Shabbos table?” she asked.
The Lawrence school district was “accommodating,” she stressed, rescheduling school events away from Friday nights and providing kosher food, but she also described being in a “no-man’s land.”
“In the Orthodox world we’re looked down upon because ‘How could you take your kids out of yeshiva?’ and in the public school world our kids are wearing tzniusdik [modest] clothing and don’t participate in after-school Friday night programs.”
This year her 10-year-old daughter, Julia, is going into the Lawrence Middle School; her twin 17-year old sons, Charlie and Jeremy, will be seniors at Lawrence High School. Both boys plan to go to Israel next year.
“My biggest fear,” Wiener said, “is that my [younger] daughter didn’t have the chance to have any kind of Jewish education.” She will attend the after-school program in Merrick.
Her older daughter, Allyson, attended HAFTR and HALB but graduated from Lawrence High School after the family suffered severe financial problems. She remained active in NCSY and studied in Israel, “and she came home so to the right,” Wiener said, sounding amused.
“People shouldn’t be afraid,” to send a child to public school, she said, “if they have done the right job in their home … and Allyson is an example of that.”
Rabbi Wolowik was less optimistic.
“There are very few children who will walk out of a public school setting being Shomer Torah and Mitzvos,” he said. “You can’t kid yourself. There is nothing in a public school for a Jewish child.”
“No child likes to go to two schools in one day,” he added. “Some children resent going to one school. At the end of a long day, to start doing Judaic studies — it’s not going to work for long.”
The mother whose high school-aged daughter was accepted back to yeshiva at a reduced tuition agreed: “It’s so hard to keep them on track as it is, in our frum environment — and we have problems too. To put them in [public school in] an environment that would lead them to completely leave frumkeit (Torah observance), for a dollar? They have Bikur Cholim and Hatzalah — there should be just as big a benefit, that big a charity, for tuition, when it’s just as important,” she insisted. In public school, “You’re just setting them up, and you can’t tell me that a frum Jewish soul is worth risking, for money.”
“I look at it as a matter of spiritual life and death, chas v’shalom,” Rabbi Wolowik said. “And it’s not only the parents’ responsibility to give their children a Jewish education. It’s the community’s responsibility to give children a Jewish education. Because the Halacha is even if I have no children to pay tuition for, and let the yeshiva close from my perspective, I have my personal obligation to make sure that every yeshiva stays open and gives an education to every Jewish child.”
He described approaching a man on behalf of a family in tuition crisis, who already pays his own hefty tuition bill. The man took out a home equity loan in order to help, Rabbi Wolowik said.
“This is a cry and a plea to those who have [resources],” Rabbi Wolowik said, “to come over to their rabbis. And if they don’t know a rabbi they can call Chabad [of the Five Towns at 516-295-2478] and I will direct them to a rabbi or a family that is in need of tuition help. Make checks payable to Chabad’s charity fund and 100 percent of the money will go directly to help pay tuitions. For that matter, if they wish, they can direct it to a Jewish institution of their choice.”
“We are all into kiruv, kiruv, kiruv,” Rabbi Wolowik added. “We also have to make sure we hold onto those we already have — those who are getting lost because we don’t have the funds for Jewish education. If we don’t want this child to marry out tomorrow, we have to get them a Jewish education today.”
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Read Comments (114) — Post Yours »
1
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:01 AM Yankel Says:Report as Inappropriate
it is time to establish serios after school Hebrew study
the tuition burden is unbelivable
in my opinion mmost schools have bloated admonistration on the education and buisness sides
it is time to get business people on the boars to run yeshivas effectively
2
Aug 19, 2009 at 07:58 AM what is the answer Says:Report as Inappropriate
What a dreadful decision to have to make? What are the choices?
Is Beis Yakov of Boro Park really not opening or What?
3
Aug 19, 2009 at 07:57 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
If they manage to keep their children frum even though they go to public school, they will be the starters of a big trend. But one kid who starts dating a non-Jew or starts with drugs and they will be the last.
4
Aug 19, 2009 at 07:52 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Jewish parents should tap into all their resources and those of the school's scholership programs and donors to find the funds to pay for yeshiva tuition but they should not bankrupt themselves or exhaust their emergency funds and retirement funds to pay the tuition. If they have to take the kids out of yeshiva for a year or two and use the public schools, they should at least enroll them into an after school program at their synagogue (or another synagogue since most orthodox shuls don't have a "Talmud Torah" on the assumption that 100 percent of their members' kids go to yeshvia.
5
Aug 19, 2009 at 07:51 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
The schools take a lot out of the parents and we pay a fortune. I think the goal should be until the recession is over that keep as many children in jewish schools as possible verses taking out of public school to put into jewish schools.I think we should save those there.
6
Aug 19, 2009 at 07:50 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
This is certainly one of the saddest stories one will read. For years we've fought tooth and nail to assure that all children have an opportunity to have a yeshiva education, and now, due to forces beyond our control, the tide may push many into public school.
I've yet to see kids who've previously attended day schools or yeshivas successfully "survive" life in public school. Especially in the middle and HS years, kids are just far to vulnerable to withstand the social pressures.
May Hashem help us to ensure that Jewish children have Jewish education. After school programs have not proven capable of stemming the rate of assimilation. If they had, such a high percentage of people who attended Talmud Torah wouldn't be intermarried and/or ambivalent.
7
Aug 19, 2009 at 07:45 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Why is it that yeshiva education is so expensive?? Cant costs be subsidized by the synagogues? What about home schooling? surely thats an option? what about private homes that provide schooling for a few children?
Why arent more donations made toward the yeshivas and jewish schools? arent there scholarships for families with limited means?
Its a shame that peopel are limited. Of course I went to public schools and didnt get into any yiddishkeit until i was nearly in my 30s. There is alot i wish i learned and alot that i wasted my time doing. The term "growing up in captivity" really applies.
8
Aug 19, 2009 at 07:44 AM MR613 Says:Report as Inappropriate
Thanks VIN for writing this artiacal I am in this situation its heartbreaking to me.
9
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:20 AM what to do Says:Report as Inappropriate
I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here.
10
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:38 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
The yeshivas need to clean up the process for granting tution assistance in order to ensure that assistance is granted exclusively to those who really deserve it. There are too many families on assistance who enjoy a Pesach vacation in the mountains, who employ expensive gardeners to maintain their manicured lawns, who lease expensive and inefficient fuel consuming automobiles, who send their children to sleepaway camp etc...
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:37 AM chief doofis Says:Report as Inappropriate
Last week, in connection with the discussion on the Yeshiva in Roosevelt, I commented on the lamentable misallocation (legal, honest, etc., but still misallocation) of funds in the frum community. Kids who live in a thriving Orthodox community, are being sent to Public schools, while little "Yeshivalech" are opening in every little "bevorfineh dorfil" (isolated town) in the U.S. I reiterate that the community at large is responsible.
Monies that fund these schools, in a Perth Amboy, a Bayonne, a Roosevelt, a Paterson, a North Plainfield, an Adelphia, a Belmar, a Mt. Kisco, and countless other "yehoopitses" that have no Orthodox communities, no elementary schools, no shuls, kosher butchers, bakeries, etc. should be spent on the necessities of giving every Jewish boy and girl a basic Torah education. Tuitions should be reasonable. A family with four kids in any Day School or Yeshiva with a dual program (Limudei Kodesh and Chol), is faced with a tuition bill of between 60 and 100,000 per year. That is after taxes!!
Kollelim are wonderful...for a hand picked creme de la creme who will become the next leaders of the next generation. Today, it is almost a carte blanche. Everyone goes to kollel. Can the frum community afford that? Does every college student get a fellowship?.. and that is from the "goyish" community, that is infinitely wealthier than our own. You can get fellowships from Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, etc., but you have to be an exceptionally qualified student. Other students do get their advanced degrees, while working or teaching part time, going to night school, and taking correspondence courses. People can also learn part time, and on Shabbos, Sunday, etc.
We are getting more and more top heavy. No Orthodox child (or any Jewish child) belongs in a Public School. We must prioritize!
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:35 AM R Levi Says:Report as Inappropriate
The truth is that the Orthodox Community is large enough to send all our kids to public school and control the agenda and the environment surrounding our kids.
Their Chinuch will benefit by seeing how their frum teachers interact with people not of our faith. In the long run we will all benefit.
But who has guts to actually recomend such an idea openly.
13
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:33 AM tuition paying grandparent Says:Report as Inappropriate
That is like having several leaks in the plumbing and fixing only one of them. Why don't the rabbonim urge people to live more frugally and make more frugal simchas so that more money will be available to send kids to yeshiva. Why don't we also insist that kids graduate with some job skills or at least a high school diploma rather than produce generation after generation that cannot earn a living? Why don't we trim the frills? Does every girl who graduates need a year in Israel? Encouraging tzedukah is great and maybe there should be some campaign that everyone gives to a yeshiva this yomtov, but people will be even more encouraged to give if they see that the system is becoming sustainable.
14
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:32 AM Just Kvetching or providing Answers? Says:Report as Inappropriate
Everyone knows these money problems and it's a waste of time to talk about issues everyone knows about but no one is working on any solutions.
There are many alternatives that hardly anyone is working on.
1) In an election year we can unite all communities together to mount pressure to get full government tution aid especialy since we are saving the government much more money, per child, by taking the load off the PS system.
Even more practical and VERY EASY to do is #2 :
2) Parents need to unite to provide their own united home schooling.
For example: 5 or 10 parents (of the same age group children) get together to teach their children together - 3 to 5 children in a private home, or 5 to 10 children in a Shull (not used during the day) and we cut the tuition costs in 1/2 or 3/4 or less.
This is the system that worked for us Jews in the Old City (Alter Heim) for many generations, when parents effectively educated their Children, although the poverty level we lived through then, was far worse than any poverty level anyone has ever seen today.
Home Schooling is Legal and it Works!
A small little Cheder of 2 or 4 or 5 or 10 children can also be arranged.
Especially if some of the parents are strapped for cash because they lost their job, they can now Teach (they have no other job anyway)!
We Jews have the Torah which tels us how to educate our children.
The Torah does not say that a Teacher needs a college degree.
The Torah says that each and every Father should teach (his children) and they CAN do that.
It's doable.
Lower Grade Schools and even worse in higher grade schools have done nothing to totally overhaul their efficiency - as per cost per child.
We can do it a lot more efficiently, at far lower cost in a Yeshiva than in Public Schools and we can do it at a small fraction of the costs AT HOME as compared to Formal fancy Bureaucratic Yeshiva Buildings.
Not only can we save tons of money by home schooling (or a parent teaching in his home, his child with 2 or 3 others, together) - but we gett better results at home than in a Yeshiva!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in addition to cutting the tuition bill by 90%, you also benefit by having educated your child in a much better and much more effective way because children learn much better when in smaller groups, with a teacher who is parent who cares rather than someone doing it just "as a job", just for the money.
Our school system has generated a very, very, very long list of problems, children who become disenfranchised and leave Yiddishkiet and children who don't fit the "mass production" style of education, children who don't learn well because of not enough personalized attention in large classes and much more.
All of the above problems can be solved if we go back to small home schooling type of an "Alter Heim" type of a personal CHEDER, inside our home or shteibel/shull.
We can cut costs almost to zero and have a million times more efficient and more effective education for our children, on all fronts - scholastically, better Yiras Shomayim and Better Midos Tovos and Happier children in a smaller personalized group.
Although a parent as teacher may not be "professionally trained" and not so experienced but that is offset and is still much more effective because of it being a smaller group and because a parent/teacher, or personalized melamed, really cares about YOUR child not just "another number" in huge school system.
15
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:32 AM Tax Break Says:Report as Inappropriate
We have to push Albany and Washington for a full Tax Break on yeshiva Tuition it is getting out of hand and public school is not an option.
a good start will be courting the Republicans running in every District and City to promote this idea and hopefully implement it once the Republicans gain the House and Senate in 2010 and of course the Presidency in 2012.
anyone want to start a grassroots campaign let me know hopefully you already have some sort of pull and resources cause Ive got nothing except passion
16
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:31 AM Shlomo Hamech's Grandson Says:Report as Inappropriate
If we could regain control of hashgacha money(as was the case in many kehillos in europe) from the ou and all the other businessman/rabbis, we could use those proceeds (supposedly the ou makes ca 40 MILLION dollars annually! and spends OUR monies, literally a tax, where THEY think they should) on chinuch. Then if we need a pay increase for teachers, etc we would raise the cost of poultry by 2 cents a pound and it would hardly be felt or noticed by anyone. This would effectively tax all of klal yisrael, spreading the costs of chinuch to more of our population than just the young parents (who have the highest cost of living and the lowest income as they are first beginning their earning careers). THE PERFECT SOLUTION! Just one small catch: who can convince all these mafias to return our turf to us?
17
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:31 AM Momofmany Says:Report as Inappropriate
I asked my husband if we should do the same this year .... we're at a loss.
18
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:29 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
I never understood why some schools try to use the admissions process to exert so much control over parents. The local schools should be thrilled that you want to send your daughter for an orthodox education. If it were me, I'd go with Solomon Schecter. That way your daughter will get a good jewish education (albeit not yeshivish) and a good secular education.
19
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:24 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
What is the point of yeshiva?
Is the point of yeshiva to make us religious or is the point of sending to yeshiva something we do becuase it is the norm?
20
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:24 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The schools take a lot out of the parents and we pay a fortune. I think the goal should be until the recession is over that keep as many children in jewish schools as possible verses taking out of public school to put into jewish schools.I think we should save those there. ”
This problem is not going away when the recession is over. It's a systemic, long-term issue.
21
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:23 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
People have to not stigmatize children who go to public school and assume they will have problems or your will create a self-fulfilling prophesy. If there is a critical mass of observant students in public school, combined with an after school program, it will be much easier for the students to resist secular peer pressures and to not feel left out when they can't participate in the friday night and saturday activities that their classmates are participating in. In other words, think out of the box. Perhaps more, rather than fewer, observant kids in public school is the answer.
22
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:46 AM HAGTBG Says:Report as Inappropriate
It strikes me that your problem is not 'slightly different' but completely different. As you say its a free country and those yeshivas that are local and that you consider appropriate for your child are not forced to accept you if they find your standard of living unacceptable (however unreasonable you or I may find that). Of course you can continue to try to negotiate entry with them and good look with that.
But if they won't negotiate, you have two choices. Choice one is conform to their rules, however unreasonable you find them.
However, if you can not conform and if you can not find one school appropriate for your child then - unless you can not get to work elsewhere - then you should move away. If you do not want your daughter to commute an hour to what you deem an appropriate school then move so the working parent can commute an hour to work. Or split the difference. Or you can prioritze living in Lakewood over what you consider an appropriate education for your child.
Just because you don't like the hard answer does not make it idiotic. Any place you live is your home.
23
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:44 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
What about the people who were in Lakewood before you? They have set certain standards & you have no right to force them to lower their standards.
24
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:43 AM Babishka Says:Report as Inappropriate
Aliyah is another option.
25
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:43 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Yes, America is a free country an d you can live wherever you choose. Likewise the schools are free to choose who they let in. BTW I have a tv and internet also so i choose not to live in Lakewood. I live in a small community where there are basically two schools one co-ed and one separate and both ask if you have internet and urge parental control over it. neither keeps out a kid based on the way the mother dresses or anything else.
But you choose to live in lakewood.
When in Rome do as the Romans.
26
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:43 AM Keep Kids Home Says:Report as Inappropriate
Sending children to Public School is to delibertaely give them a BAD education - to teach them Goiyish Values.
If you can't afford Yeshiva, just keep them home and at least they will remain Jews.
27
Aug 19, 2009 at 08:41 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Yes this is America, so the yeshivas don't have to accept your children if they believe they fail to meet their minimum standards. What do other modern families in the community do?
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:48 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
#9, Although I feel bad, but the schools have a right to demand some standards. You chose to move there. No one forced you. You remind me of the "girl" in K.Y. that was featured in NY Magazine. She wants to live in K.Y. but dress however she wants - sorry, you can't have both!
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:47 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
i'm in the same situation, if the yeshiva didn't reduce my tuition this year (it was hard work) my kids would have gove to public school - i have no choice!! it's a reality - no money no yeshiva.
what i don't understand is why they charge $15k per kid (pre-tax), with 24 kids in my sons class that's $350k, it doesn't cost them anywhere near that much. then it's to subsidize other people's tuition... then it should be considered a donation (post-tax) and only those who can afford it should have to pay.
bottom line is that American Jewry has a HUGE problem that none of the rabbis or schools want to do anything about because it's profitable, when the economy was good it was swept under the rug, today they have to face reality that if they care about yiddishkeit (which is what they preach) they need to stop linning their pockets with all the blood money they are getting from yeshiva tuition and start making life bearable for the average jewish family
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:46 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
way too many people are stuck in this situation and dont talk about it. they go to tuition commitees and are given minimal reductions and walk out feeling personally abused to where they cant stand the school. and dont think that when a parent walks out hating the school it doesnt affect the children. we have watched and clearly read in this article that parents are doing everything but have yet to see where the schools are helping. they are part of the problem and have not yet recognized it
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
# 9-
A long time ago, people from all different walks of Yiddishkeit went to the same schools. There may not have been many options back in the early/mid nineteen hundreds(1940,50's 60's etc), but there wasn't discrimination. You went to Yeshiva to learn. And learn is what you did. It is sad, that schools discriminate because of observance levels and won't accept children due that. We are The Children of Hashem and if we choose to live in an area, we should be accepted the schools that are there.
Children who are unable to go to their ideal choice of schools should be accepted to another Yeshiva if it is financially feasible ( i.e. lower tuition and/or scholarship) even if the situation is not ideal to the family or the school. We are Jews and Jews are supposed to help out other jews in a time of need. As it says regarding tzedakah, First you help out people in your town before helping out people from another town or city or country. Public school should really not be an option. The yeshiva that the children are in should be helping them out and be understanding and let them pay what they could afford monthly etc.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Why would you want to live in Lakewood?
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:31 AM Shua Cohen Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
> "Please don't give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. This is our home and we intend to live here.”
>> I must say that I am totally perplexed by your comment. Certainly, you have every right to the Jewish ideology of your choosing. As well, this being a "free country" (as you said), you have every right to live wherever you wish. Unfortunately, you have created a seemingly irreconcilable conflict between these two rights, and then expect others to solve this conflict for you. And to top it all off, you peremptorily dismiss the only logical solution -- moving to a location where your ideological needs can be accommodated -- by calling it idiotic? I'm sorry, but you boxed yourself into a corner and now stubbornly refuse to make the only logical move which will "unbox" you.
Additionally, your rather sarcastic "GASP" -- at the unacceptability of your TV, internet, movies and jeans -- unpleasantly reveals a rather disconcerting attitude towards the values of the community in which you have chosen to live. Your "gasp" indicates an incredulity that the community does not accept your lifestyle choices...as if it is THEY who are being unreasonable. I apologize if I am misreading your "gasp," but to my mind your attitude implies just a whiff of disdain, as if you are saying: "the community's values are overly stringent and totally unnecessary in our modern world; if they would only realize this then they would recognize that they need to accommodate my family's needs."
As much as I stretch, I can find no logic or justification for your position. If your child's education is important to you -- as I am sure it is -- then it should be the number one priority in deciding where to live. If you cannot see this, then it is you who are being illogically unreasonable. In any event, kol tuv; best of luck to you in resolving your dilemma.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
This won't be too politically correct, but I think we should close all the kiruv organizations until the recession is over. Kiruv has become a multimillion dollar industry. They do some nice work, but let's face it - it's a shot in the dark. We can go around the small towns in Jersey and try to recruit a few people, but what's the success rate? 10%? 20% at best? That money should be spent to help resolve the tuition crisis and keep our frum neshamos as shomrei torah u'mitzvos.
As long as frum Jews are sending their kids to public school, we HAVE to put kiruv krovim first. The fact that thousands of dollars go to Oorah and other organizations while some of our own parents are sending their kids to public school is sickening.
I'm not putting down kiruv organizations, but let's face it - in today's difficult economic times, we have to prioritize where we give tzedakah. And kiruv has got to be at the bottom of the totem pole.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:25 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The truth is that the Orthodox Community is large enough to send all our kids to public school and control the agenda and the environment surrounding our kids.
Their Chinuch will benefit by seeing how their frum teachers interact with people not of our faith. In the long run we will all benefit.
But who has guts to actually recomend such an idea openly.
”
Actually, you couldn't control "the agenda" in public school. There are some mandatory curricula set at the state level and the federal no child left behind act creates other requirements.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:25 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Why is moving the idiotic answer? These are private schools and, as backward and counterproductive as their admissions policies are, they are entitled to have them. If the public school is good, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand until you've checked it out or, move to the upper west side, one of the great intellectual centers of modern orthodoxy -- you would be welcome members of the kehillah and have your choice of schooling options and, most importantly, instead of feeling like outcasts in a community that doesn't want you or respect your beliefs, you and your kids would be able to live and practice as you wish with thousands of other like-minded families
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:24 AM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ i'm in the same situation, if the yeshiva didn't reduce my tuition this year (it was hard work) my kids would have gove to public school - i have no choice!! it's a reality - no money no yeshiva.
what i don't understand is why they charge $15k per kid (pre-tax), with 24 kids in my sons class that's $350k, it doesn't cost them anywhere near that much. then it's to subsidize other people's tuition... then it should be considered a donation (post-tax) and only those who can afford it should have to pay.
bottom line is that American Jewry has a HUGE problem that none of the rabbis or schools want to do anything about because it's profitable, when the economy was good it was swept under the rug, today they have to face reality that if they care about yiddishkeit (which is what they preach) they need to stop linning their pockets with all the blood money they are getting from yeshiva tuition and start making life bearable for the average jewish family ”
The vast majority of parents don't pay full tuition for one reason or another.
Someone should do an analysis of the costs incurred by a Yeshiva so that a better picture of the situation would be available. I've never seen a Yeshiva flush in cash or the administrators living in luxury.
This is really a spiritual life or death situation. Something needs to be done to provide for those that can't afford the standard Yeshivos.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM Joseph Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
lol!!!
So the whole town is at fault for not changing their policies because YOU refuse to conform to the town's and school's standards???
Please, give me a break.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:08 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This won't be too politically correct, but I think we should close all the kiruv organizations until the recession is over. Kiruv has become a multimillion dollar industry. They do some nice work, but let's face it - it's a shot in the dark. We can go around the small towns in Jersey and try to recruit a few people, but what's the success rate? 10%? 20% at best? That money should be spent to help resolve the tuition crisis and keep our frum neshamos as shomrei torah u'mitzvos.
As long as frum Jews are sending their kids to public school, we HAVE to put kiruv krovim first. The fact that thousands of dollars go to Oorah and other organizations while some of our own parents are sending their kids to public school is sickening.
I'm not putting down kiruv organizations, but let's face it - in today's difficult economic times, we have to prioritize where we give tzedakah. And kiruv has got to be at the bottom of the totem pole. ”
I think your assumption that all the money that gets donated to kiruv organizations would be donated instead to yeshivas and day schools if the kiruv organizations shut down is misplaced. A lot of money that goes in to kiruv organizations comes from outside of the orthodox community and is a direct result of the kiruv work and those organization's fund raising efforts.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:00 AM reply to number 9 Says:Report as Inappropriate
If I were in your shoes- that is the way you explained it I would compromise your situation and ask my self what I really care about? I don't understand why someone like you would want to live in lakewook but whatever the reason is you should thin about relocating to a near by nice modern ortho community. There are many nice modern ortho communities in jersey- many not so far away from lakewood.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:55 AM Yaakov Says:Report as Inappropriate
Competition is the answer and I agree with #14
While parents have to strugle to eat, I have yet to see any school administrators who are poor
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:23 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
The Laekwood public schools have shown much improvement,nothwithstanding the efforts of the school board to cut taxes and deny needed funding for the schools. consider sending your kids to public school and to cheder after school (or teach them at home).
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:18 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
#9 you have a terrible attitude. Throughout the years people, even non jews choose to move where their children can recieve the best schooling. you chose to move to an ultra orthodox community where tv and blue jeans are no nos and expect the;m to jump through hoops for you. schools are entitled to make rules and those who choose to attend are required to follow them. you should have chosen to live somewhere where your family fits in and the schools suit your type of judiasm instead of insisting that you are entiltled to enroll your dhildren where they don't belong. by the way, if one of the schools did accept your children you probably would not be happy when they came home and insisted that you move more to the right so they could fit in with their friends.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:36 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
When choosing a community, it's imperative to find one where the hashkafa fits one's lifestyle. You're right - you can't reasonably do anything about this now, but you should have done your homework first. Especially since there are so many modern communities in NJ.
What to do? Put her on the bus, look to sell your house eventually and move, because not only will she be too far away from the "appropriate" school this way, but also from friends.
I definitely know of families in Lakewood who've done all the things you mention, but I guess they just didn't tell the schools.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM Shua Cohen Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Aliyah is another option. ”
> "Aliyah is another option.”
>> Ah, a voice of true emunah on this thread. Good for you Babishka.
I have argued incessantly that the pressure on Orthodox Jewish life in our American golus is accelerating at a rapid pace. Crises abound in every aspect of our lives: tuition, parnossa, business ethics, dina d'malchusa dina scandals, an anti-Israel president, lack of spirituality, children at risk, abuse scandals, shalom bayis problems, and the regular reporting of the tragic deaths of youngsters. The list goes on and on. Rabbi Lazer Brody (of Eretz Yisrael) noted that people writing to him "are now succumbing to discouragement and despair."
Where is a sign of hope? My own take on it is (as I have expressed a number of times on VIN) that the Ribbono Shel Olam is hitting us on the side of the head with a proverbial 2x4, trying to get the message across: "you've become too comfortable in your goldena medina; the process of geula started in 1948 when I gave Eretz Yisrael back to my people who now, after 2000 years of golus, can go home. And what have you done instead? You keep increasing your long- term investment in a golus that you desperately cling to. As the German Jews made Berlin their new Jerusalem, so have you done with Lakewood, Boro Park, Flatbush, the Five-Towns, etc. etc. This, at a time when Yerusalayim Ir HaKodesh is there for you to embrace, and not just as a visitor from overseas. Well, now I will begin to make things very difficult for you in your too comfortable golus...until you realize that it's time to say 'thank you' to America, but 'goodbye, it's time to for us Jews to go home.'"
And let's not pretend that all American Orthodox Jews are suddenly bound by the shitah of the late Rebbe of Satmar, zt"l. As Rabbi Zev Leff has pointed out, many gedolim have held that even if the mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz is a mitzvah kiyumis, it nevertheless applies in every generation. As I have cited before (from Rabbi Leff) both Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zt"l and the Chazon Ish zt"l held that the majority of Bnai Torah in the west have no excuse not to make alilyah (citations upon request).
Those who board their Nefesh B'Nefesh aliyah flights are the true ba'alei emunah, and G-d willing, I will be joining them very soon. Instead of fretting about how to solve our crises in America (tuition or otherwise), all should be praying and planning instead -- at this crucial time in history before Moschiach -- to go home.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:50 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I live right in the heart of Brooklyn and have sent my girls to Bais Yaakov type schools their entire lives. They are now in High School and WILL BE STAYING HOME this year. The schools refuse to budge in their demands for tuition that we cannot afford. We have always paid full tuition up until now and they will not come down one penny. At the same time we are still paying $2000 a month for the boys tuition, and that's after a whopping scholarship discount which they grudgingly granted us, after making us feel like the neediest people on earth. I don't have any more strength to fight.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What about the people who were in Lakewood before you? They have set certain standards & you have no right to force them to lower their standards. ”
I agree.However dont forget that there were people in Lakewood before you as well.
I predict within the next decade, a significant body of the Lakewood community will become much more focused on Parnasa education .
I also predict that the "in-town" attitude will give way to a certain out-of-town pleasantness.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:24 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
In response to #11 my mother A"H used to always say that when you send a child to a school you have to be prepared to follow their rules, no you should not move but perhaps if you don't want to send your child to the other options you mentioned which sound really difficult (I myself am a mother of young kids and can't picture my kids in any of the scenerios you wrote) you should consider eliminating the tv, movies internet etc. It will probably take time to adjust and adapt but instead of those less meaningful things take the money from the movie tickets and go out to eat and or go to a restaurant and bowling or some other venue that is more "kosher", as far as the TV chuck it you can watch whatever you want on the internet and if the school doesn't allow the internet tell them it's for business and buy dvd's all computers come with a dvd player - your quality of life will slowly improve and your daughter will gain tremendously from the positive life changes you and your husband will make, no don't send her/him an hour a way don't send to the conservative or reform schools stay where you are, speak to a Rabbi that you are comfortable with and come up with a game plan. I hope this helps.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:13 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The schools take a lot out of the parents and we pay a fortune. I think the goal should be until the recession is over that keep as many children in jewish schools as possible verses taking out of public school to put into jewish schools.I think we should save those there. ”
and how should the schools shoulder the cost?
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!)
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:15 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Hopefully one day these "rabbonim & mechanchim" will wake up and realize how many good Jewish children are being turned off the derech because of this type of actions on their part. The yeshivos are running like a money making bussiness not lishma to teach children They are a good part of the reason of "teens at risk". They don't care to get involved except to make money. I am talking from experience, I am involved with teens at risk. All these rabbonim and mechanchim should keep in mind that after 120 years they will have to give a din vicheshbon to bais din shel maala
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:14 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Why would you want to live in Lakewood? ”
This way he can complain about the so called fanatics that live there.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:12 AM HAGTBG Says:Report as Inappropriate
My comment #22 is a response to comment #9.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:12 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What about the people who were in Lakewood before you? They have set certain standards & you have no right to force them to lower their standards. ”
Forty and fifty years ago are schools were not of one homogeneous haskafa.Overwhelmingly, kids were ONLY influenced to the "right." What makes kids leave klal yisrael r'l is embarassment or abuse from rabbonim,rebbes, and teachers; hence Rav Steinnman's letter (reported on in VIN) prohibiting the embarrassing of children. Lakewood has it figured out all wrong, from Lipa to internet. Find another community that isn't fashioned as a frum Sdom!
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:03 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ it is time to establish serios after school Hebrew study
the tuition burden is unbelivable
in my opinion mmost schools have bloated admonistration on the education and buisness sides
it is time to get business people on the boars to run yeshivas effectively ”
This crisis is one that goes for the whole frum. community. I personally have spoken to many school administators in the Brooklyn area about this problem and came up with a solution that in my opinion will solve the problem. If we all register our kids to public schools for the upcoming school year believe me the city will have no other choice that to pick up the tab and foot the bill for our schools. Imagine all the thousands of kids kay"h showing up with our yellow school buses to the public schools in the area, where will they put them???? Does anyone know how much the city pays for each kid enrolled in public schools?? According to some of the peole I've spoken to with knowledge on the matter its somewhere around $26,000 per child, yes you heard me right, $26,000!!!!!
They can get this for a bargain if they'll fund our schools. Biggest problem is getting all the mosdos in a collective effort to act on the matter.
So all of us, pick up the phone to your school administrator, offer to help with this drive and we will see action.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:02 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sending children to Public School is to delibertaely give them a BAD education - to teach them Goiyish Values.
If you can't afford Yeshiva, just keep them home and at least they will remain Jews. ”
thats redicules - kids become bums when they stay home unattended (most families have to working parents)
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:02 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Many Yeshivos are privately owned and/or controlled. If a Yeshiva constantly appeals for kehilah funds it should have open books. I know of one very famous tzdakah where the founder/chief of this charity takes a salary of close to $500,000. I found this information in the federally required forms for charities that can be found on the internet. My point is that any organization that budgets and disburses millions of dollars should be open to public examination.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:00 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Open up a school for like minded people like yourself. However you can not expect a school to change their standards, when you don't want to change your standards. Yes America is a free country and you have a right to live where you want, however a school has a right to impose standards too.
You can send to Shalom Torah Centers or Oorah, they will accept you with a TV (GASP).
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If they manage to keep their children frum even though they go to public school, they will be the starters of a big trend. But one kid who starts dating a non-Jew or starts with drugs and they will be the last. ”
You will always have a kids who does this whether or not they are in yeshiva or in public school. Values are taught at home and that is what everyone needs to remember
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:29 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
In response to those who are responding to the lakewood issue, Tov Latzadik Tov Leshchanah. if you have a rightous neighbor it is good for you. Let's not forget our torah schooling for those whose parents paid tuition and for those that are still able to pay. Shame on you for degrading her - she is being honest and needs hadrachah - a proper path for her and her famiily when someone asks for help make sure you be helpfull and not critical she isn't looking for criticisim.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I live right in the heart of Brooklyn and have sent my girls to Bais Yaakov type schools their entire lives. They are now in High School and WILL BE STAYING HOME this year. The schools refuse to budge in their demands for tuition that we cannot afford. We have always paid full tuition up until now and they will not come down one penny. At the same time we are still paying $2000 a month for the boys tuition, and that's after a whopping scholarship discount which they grudgingly granted us, after making us feel like the neediest people on earth. I don't have any more strength to fight. ”
Please write via certified letter to the board of directors of their school and challenge them to come up with a workable solution. Same for your boys' schools. I am tired of the same boards running the schools to their liking while not analyzing correctly people's financial situations so that the (who are a generally extremely wealthy-that's how they got elected in the first place) children and parents can have some Menuchas HaNefesh.
When giving scholarships, LIFESTYLES must be analyzed. ie: How much is your food bill per what size family? Do you vacation? Do you go the the Mountains? How many cars/homes do you own? How often do you buy or lease a new car? What types of improvements/renovations have you made recently on your home? How much of your expenses are covered by other sources? (ie: food stamps, shviger paying for shoes twice a year, mother paying the meat bill, etc.) There are too many people living comfortable lives lying about their difficulties to make ends meet. Those without all the outside help are the ones who need the help the most and cannot tap into it.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:03 AM Another 5T resident Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ > "Aliyah is another option.”
>> Ah, a voice of true emunah on this thread. Good for you Babishka.
I have argued incessantly that the pressure on Orthodox Jewish life in our American golus is accelerating at a rapid pace. Crises abound in every aspect of our lives: tuition, parnossa, business ethics, dina d'malchusa dina scandals, an anti-Israel president, lack of spirituality, children at risk, abuse scandals, shalom bayis problems, and the regular reporting of the tragic deaths of youngsters. The list goes on and on. Rabbi Lazer Brody (of Eretz Yisrael) noted that people writing to him "are now succumbing to discouragement and despair."
Where is a sign of hope? My own take on it is (as I have expressed a number of times on VIN) that the Ribbono Shel Olam is hitting us on the side of the head with a proverbial 2x4, trying to get the message across: "you've become too comfortable in your goldena medina; the process of geula started in 1948 when I gave Eretz Yisrael back to my people who now, after 2000 years of golus, can go home. And what have you done instead? You keep increasing your long- term investment in a golus that you desperately cling to. As the German Jews made Berlin their new Jerusalem, so have you done with Lakewood, Boro Park, Flatbush, the Five-Towns, etc. etc. This, at a time when Yerusalayim Ir HaKodesh is there for you to embrace, and not just as a visitor from overseas. Well, now I will begin to make things very difficult for you in your too comfortable golus...until you realize that it's time to say 'thank you' to America, but 'goodbye, it's time to for us Jews to go home.'"
And let's not pretend that all American Orthodox Jews are suddenly bound by the shitah of the late Rebbe of Satmar, zt"l. As Rabbi Zev Leff has pointed out, many gedolim have held that even if the mitzvah of yishuv ha'aretz is a mitzvah kiyumis, it nevertheless applies in every generation. As I have cited before (from Rabbi Leff) both Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zt"l and the Chazon Ish zt"l held that the majority of Bnai Torah in the west have no excuse not to make alilyah (citations upon request).
Those who board their Nefesh B'Nefesh aliyah flights are the true ba'alei emunah, and G-d willing, I will be joining them very soon. Instead of fretting about how to solve our crises in America (tuition or otherwise), all should be praying and planning instead -- at this crucial time in history before Moschiach -- to go home. ”
Although I theoretically agree with you that we should all move to EY, the facts on the ground are such that there is no middle in EY. If I were to move there, I would have to either forgo a secular education for my children (and seemingly check my brain at the door, walk on the other side of the street as my DH/sons etc) or become less "frum" than we are here. They do not have anything like Yeshiva Darchei Torah, Yeshiva Far Rockaway or TAG in EY. You have to choose the right or the left and I really don't feel like I belong in either extreme. The RAMBAM says to follow the shvil hazahav and I really feel like that is what I am doing here.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:07 AM desperate times Says:Report as Inappropriate
We used to pay full tuition and then some. Now we can barely afford to pay at all. We were the ones that helped out the rest of our family so its not like we have family to help us out. The school is willing to work with us but I don't know that we can afford it even with their generous discount. We used to take vacations, send the children to sleep away camp but that is over too, even the cleaning help. Home schooling sounds like an option but if you looked into it, it costs money too. I am ready to send my kids to public school but my husband wont allow it and is working so hard to try to make the tuition bill. The silver lining in the cloud is that we have not been evicted from our home yet but its just a matter of time.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!) ”
Finally!!! Someone with an idea that just might work out!
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Aug 19, 2009 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
To anyone suggesting we enroll our children into the NYC public schools - you are making a HUGE mistake. Ask any politician and they will tell you the single greatest infusion of federal funds into the state will be the need to now educate 150,000 more students. Yes it would create a logjam in the schools and there would be chaos and havoc for a bit, however that will pass quicker then you think. The NYC Board of Ed will spring into action, hundreds if not thousands of new jobs will be created, the teachers union will become stronger and many other great things would become available to the city. More buses, more textbooks, more police protections, more crossing guards - just think of all of the new jobs that would be created by us for the city. Construction of buildings, classrooms - it would be the preverbial jackpot for the city and after a short period of chaos all would be fine.
The city is not threatened by us and any school administrator who is worth his weight and knows whats going on will tell you this is the case.
Only once did we make the threat of sending our children to public school and that was during the Dinkins administration. Bloomberg is not a billionairre for no reason. He would love it more then anything to have 150,000 new children in his school system. Who wouldn't?
If you think they couldn't handle it you are very wrong. They will, it may take a few months but in the end they will. They will not blink.
The answer is fight for vouchers and elect politicians who will fight for vouchers. That is the only way to get gov't funds for private tuition.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 12:14 PM Another 5T resident Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!) ”
There is no way this will work, especially not in Lawrence where the public schools have excess capacity (and they pay more than $15000 per student). But even in the city they will scramble to place the children, even hire more teachers, rather than pay for yeshiva. The only reason it works in KJ is because they have their own school district. And there will be lots of court cases and it will be declared illegal. The only way to get vouchers is by somehow getting the votes in Albany for a law. At least to get funding for the secular dept of the yeshiva. But then you would have to follow their curriculum as well, and have (gasp) 180 days of "English" instead of less than 110.
I already saw posted on the fivetownsshuls list a parent sending their child to public schools looking for others to band together with.
It is a real tragedy when there is a desire to send to Yeshiva and money stands in the way. I wish I knew the answers.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
try the sefardic yeshivos/day schools in deal (not too far from lakewood), if u can afford them...
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Aug 19, 2009 at 12:25 PM Right On The Money Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!) ”
# 14, # 50 and # 55 are great ideas, right on the money.
Will anyone from our "Jewish Leadership", dip a finger in to cold water to make it happen?
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Aug 19, 2009 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!) ”
there's no money in it for the organizations - therefore they dont care!!
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:44 AM WolfishMusings Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This crisis is one that goes for the whole frum. community. I personally have spoken to many school administators in the Brooklyn area about this problem and came up with a solution that in my opinion will solve the problem. If we all register our kids to public schools for the upcoming school year believe me the city will have no other choice that to pick up the tab and foot the bill for our schools. Imagine all the thousands of kids kay"h showing up with our yellow school buses to the public schools in the area, where will they put them???? Does anyone know how much the city pays for each kid enrolled in public schools?? According to some of the peole I've spoken to with knowledge on the matter its somewhere around $26,000 per child, yes you heard me right, $26,000!!!!!
They can get this for a bargain if they'll fund our schools. Biggest problem is getting all the mosdos in a collective effort to act on the matter.
So all of us, pick up the phone to your school administrator, offer to help with this drive and we will see action. ”
The only action you will see is the school system scrambling to find extra space and staff. The city WILL NOT pay for yeshivos because New York State's constitution prohibits it.
Article XI of the state constitution states:
[Use of public property or money in aid of denominational schools prohibited; transportation of children authorized]
§3. Neither the state nor any subdivision thereof, shall use its property or credit or any public money, or authorize or permit either to be used, directly or indirectly, in aid or maintenance, other than for examination or inspection, of any school or institution of learning wholly or in part under the control or direction of any religious denomination, or in which any denominational tenet or doctrine is taught, but the legislature may provide for the transportation of children to and from any school or institution of learning. (Formerly §4 of Art. 9. Renumbered and amended by Constitutional Convention of 1938 and approved by vote of the people November 8, 1938. Formerly §4, renumbered §3 without change by amendment approved by vote of the people November 6, 1962; former § 4 repealed by same amendment.)
In other words, the state can provide transportation, inspection and that's about it. Don't think that registering en masse in public schools is going to force the city (or state) to pay for yeshivos. It's not going to happen.
The Wolf
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Aug 19, 2009 at 12:50 PM anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sending children to Public School is to delibertaely give them a BAD education - to teach them Goiyish Values.
If you can't afford Yeshiva, just keep them home and at least they will remain Jews. ”
So keep them at home and be completely ignorant. I'd rather send my children to public school to see how other people live. My husband & I both went to public school and I think because of that, we are able to see how intolerant many allegedly frum people are of anyone who doesn't think the same way they do.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 12:47 PM anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Please write via certified letter to the board of directors of their school and challenge them to come up with a workable solution. Same for your boys' schools. I am tired of the same boards running the schools to their liking while not analyzing correctly people's financial situations so that the (who are a generally extremely wealthy-that's how they got elected in the first place) children and parents can have some Menuchas HaNefesh.
When giving scholarships, LIFESTYLES must be analyzed. ie: How much is your food bill per what size family? Do you vacation? Do you go the the Mountains? How many cars/homes do you own? How often do you buy or lease a new car? What types of improvements/renovations have you made recently on your home? How much of your expenses are covered by other sources? (ie: food stamps, shviger paying for shoes twice a year, mother paying the meat bill, etc.) There are too many people living comfortable lives lying about their difficulties to make ends meet. Those without all the outside help are the ones who need the help the most and cannot tap into it. ”
I don't know where you've been sending your kids to school, but every school scholarship application I've ever filled out has asked if I own my car, do I send my kids to camp, do I go away for the chagim, etc.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 02:00 PM Zachary Kessin Says:Report as Inappropriate
The problem is not the downturn, its that the community has been spending more than it has on schools for a long time, and in many cases those schools are very poorly run in terms of money. The downturn just brought it to a head, this would have happened sooner or later in any case. It is not realistic to ask a family making 60k to spend 20k on school for their kids (Or more).
Yes you can live more frugally but only to a point.
The community needs to make some very hard choices, and do so soon or the choices will be made for it. (IE schools & families in bankruptcy)
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Aug 19, 2009 at 01:44 PM Shua Cohen Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Although I theoretically agree with you that we should all move to EY, the facts on the ground are such that there is no middle in EY. If I were to move there, I would have to either forgo a secular education for my children (and seemingly check my brain at the door, walk on the other side of the street as my DH/sons etc) or become less "frum" than we are here. They do not have anything like Yeshiva Darchei Torah, Yeshiva Far Rockaway or TAG in EY. You have to choose the right or the left and I really don't feel like I belong in either extreme. The RAMBAM says to follow the shvil hazahav and I really feel like that is what I am doing here. ”
I understand what you are saying, but I don't fully agree.
First of all, you need to realize that if 300,000 Orthodox Jews made aliyah, they would, by themselves, create the "middle" that you seek.
And, such communities and schools do presently exist. Have you been following Shmuel Katz's "Aliyah Chronicles" in the Five Towns Jewish Times? Like Beit Shemesh (where the Katzes chose to live) there are emerging communities with large percentages of Anglo Olim who are creating a demand for the types of schools that replicate their American experience. The Katzes have been very pleased with the schools that they've chosen for their children.
Another excellent example is Moshav Matityahu, a predominantly English speaking, American-style Yeshivish community where Rabbi Zev Leff, formerly of Miami Beach, is the Rav, There, Rabbi Baruch Chait (a musmach of Chofetz Chaim Yeshiva in Queens) founded Maarava Machon Rubin, an American-style Yeshiva which (not surprisingly) caused some controversy in Israeli Chareidi circles because of its intensive secular studies curriculum.
Bottom line: the communities and schools that you (and I) would find desirable do indeed exist, and will expand exponentially as more Americans make aliyah.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 01:39 PM Dave Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!) ”
Not even slightly possible in New York.
You would need to change the New York Constitution to allow any school affiliated with any religious group to get any public money for education. There is a specific allowance for transportation costs, but that's it.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I live right in the heart of Brooklyn and have sent my girls to Bais Yaakov type schools their entire lives. They are now in High School and WILL BE STAYING HOME this year. The schools refuse to budge in their demands for tuition that we cannot afford. We have always paid full tuition up until now and they will not come down one penny. At the same time we are still paying $2000 a month for the boys tuition, and that's after a whopping scholarship discount which they grudgingly granted us, after making us feel like the neediest people on earth. I don't have any more strength to fight. ”
Are you going to home school them? If not, going to public school might be better for them than staying home. At least get them in a GED program or have them take some courses on line. If they are high school age, maybe they are old enough to have some input into what they should be doing.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 01:05 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This won't be too politically correct, but I think we should close all the kiruv organizations until the recession is over. Kiruv has become a multimillion dollar industry. They do some nice work, but let's face it - it's a shot in the dark. We can go around the small towns in Jersey and try to recruit a few people, but what's the success rate? 10%? 20% at best? That money should be spent to help resolve the tuition crisis and keep our frum neshamos as shomrei torah u'mitzvos.
As long as frum Jews are sending their kids to public school, we HAVE to put kiruv krovim first. The fact that thousands of dollars go to Oorah and other organizations while some of our own parents are sending their kids to public school is sickening.
I'm not putting down kiruv organizations, but let's face it - in today's difficult economic times, we have to prioritize where we give tzedakah. And kiruv has got to be at the bottom of the totem pole. ”
Good point, fortunately the money being used for chabad kiruv is coming almost 100%, from the "10-20%" (where did u get your facts, only G-d knows...) of people that they touch.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 12:59 PM anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ i'm in the same situation, if the yeshiva didn't reduce my tuition this year (it was hard work) my kids would have gove to public school - i have no choice!! it's a reality - no money no yeshiva.
what i don't understand is why they charge $15k per kid (pre-tax), with 24 kids in my sons class that's $350k, it doesn't cost them anywhere near that much. then it's to subsidize other people's tuition... then it should be considered a donation (post-tax) and only those who can afford it should have to pay.
bottom line is that American Jewry has a HUGE problem that none of the rabbis or schools want to do anything about because it's profitable, when the economy was good it was swept under the rug, today they have to face reality that if they care about yiddishkeit (which is what they preach) they need to stop linning their pockets with all the blood money they are getting from yeshiva tuition and start making life bearable for the average jewish family ”
How do you know it doesn't cost them that much? The tuition covers more than just the teachers' pay. It also covers rent or mortgage, heating, air conditioning, water, supplies, janitor(s), security, phones, electricity, plus upkeep on the building and furniture. If there's money left over, then maybe it does subsidize scholarships. I don't know of too many schools that are really flush, even before the recession hit. Many families, partially because of their size, partially because the parents don't have high-paying jobs, simply don't pay full tuition. It's called a scholarship, but what it really should be called is a discount.
I don't know how you can say that the rabbis or schools are in it for the money. I know of several schools that have had high turnover in faculty because the schools don't pay. They don't have the money because not everyone is paying full tuition.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 02:10 PM nothing new under the sun Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This won't be too politically correct, but I think we should close all the kiruv organizations until the recession is over. Kiruv has become a multimillion dollar industry. They do some nice work, but let's face it - it's a shot in the dark. We can go around the small towns in Jersey and try to recruit a few people, but what's the success rate? 10%? 20% at best? That money should be spent to help resolve the tuition crisis and keep our frum neshamos as shomrei torah u'mitzvos.
As long as frum Jews are sending their kids to public school, we HAVE to put kiruv krovim first. The fact that thousands of dollars go to Oorah and other organizations while some of our own parents are sending their kids to public school is sickening.
I'm not putting down kiruv organizations, but let's face it - in today's difficult economic times, we have to prioritize where we give tzedakah. And kiruv has got to be at the bottom of the totem pole. ”
well, you should know that halacha agrees with you. i have been saying this for a long time, kiruv rechokim is a joke of an industry. the receditivist rate is high, and the amount that is working is low. oorah, aish, and others are taking money that should be going to places keep our kids frum. it may not be politically correct but it is halacha!
(besides, if i hear that stupid commercial for 1877 kars for kids one more time, i will go insane!)
80
Aug 19, 2009 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Just send them to public school, you don't sound that far off. Anyone who has a TV has no cheilik in olam habo, verbatim from a godol.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 02:31 PM Jewish mother Says:Report as Inappropriate
We made the decision to homeschool 14 years ago when my husband became disabled. It is not easy, but our older children did graduate with strong limudei chodesh and limudei chol. They also finished university online. I would have liked yeshiva, but it was all we could do to pay the rent and eat. We already have one old car and no household help or vacations to cut back.
Hatzlacha to all of the parents out there who are making tough decisions for their children. Hashem should bless us all that we should only have simchas and nachas from our families.
82
Aug 19, 2009 at 03:34 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Its a disgrace applegrad drives every day from lakewood to rip us off for his gas his 2 houses (lakewood and woodridge) and we all have to suffer shame on you torah temimah....I'm not even gonna start with margoliyas uch a shanda
83
Aug 19, 2009 at 03:42 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
We are in trying financial times and Hashem is testing us to see wheather we will help each other or not instead of waiting for scholarships maybe a gemach should be started to fund tution without it haveing to be paid back right now there is no such fund of giving people money for tuition. Yes there are money gemachs but those are hard to come by this will be an organization that makes sure the tuition is paid every month so the kids can stay in school funding it will be hard but it's better than staying in public school, lets call all the people on various boards and get them to help they have money and can make a difference right now all the scholarships we have are the ones from the schools itself we have to seperate the two and make it a scholarship to any Jewish school and with x amount in the scholarship a totally new conscept let me know what you think. Public school shouldn't even be considered anyone serously considering it should call every instituion possible to avoid this there are low key yeshiva's that can help and will take your child regardless of your financial ability it might not be a top yeshiva but the main concern is to keep them in yeshiva, I hope this helps.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 05:45 PM starwolf Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ How do you know it doesn't cost them that much? The tuition covers more than just the teachers' pay. It also covers rent or mortgage, heating, air conditioning, water, supplies, janitor(s), security, phones, electricity, plus upkeep on the building and furniture. If there's money left over, then maybe it does subsidize scholarships. I don't know of too many schools that are really flush, even before the recession hit. Many families, partially because of their size, partially because the parents don't have high-paying jobs, simply don't pay full tuition. It's called a scholarship, but what it really should be called is a discount.
I don't know how you can say that the rabbis or schools are in it for the money. I know of several schools that have had high turnover in faculty because the schools don't pay. They don't have the money because not everyone is paying full tuition. ”
I am amazed at the cost of religious school education in the US. However, if you look at how the teachers and Rabbis running the schools live--to put it lightly, they do not come off as wealthy people. I very much doubt that anyone goes into chinuch for the money.
Running a school is expersive. In addition to the items mentioned in the quoted post, there are insurance and numberous other required expenses before any teaching even begins.
If this financial downturn does not improve, we will have to rethink the model of Jewish education.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 05:18 PM bestbabbiever Says:Report as Inappropriate
How dare anyone even think that the yeshivos and rebbeim are in it for the money. I personally know of yeshivos who are three to four months behind in salary. when some prospective parents ask for tuition breaks, they don't get wjy they're not entitled. You have money for camps, fancy bar mitzvahs and weddings, but when it comes to tuition, it's just not a priority anymore. Yeshivos are extending breaks to families suffering economic hardships. I am a teacher, wife of a rebbi, and daughter of a rebbi.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 05:14 PM cranberry stuffer Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Why the heck do you live in lakewood?? Elizabeth and Edison are way cheaper.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 05:08 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Every time the tuition problem comes up, the response is lets get someone else to pay. Let's get the government to pay (isn't going to happen), let's get some big donors to pay (where are they?). Let's cut costs - you can't take it out of the teacher's hides, many aren't evey getting paid, although there is some room for cutting costs on overhead, too much administration, etc. The only viable long term solution is making sure that the system graduates kids who are ready, willing and able to work and to get the further education and training to get good jobs. Instead, too many of these schools are teaching children that secular higher education and work is bad and that the only thing to do after graduation is to get married and have children without any means of supporting them and paying their tuition. If we are going to have a community built around private schools, then bottom line is we need to have a community of higher than average earners. It also doesn't help that so much money goes into expensive weddings and simchas, not to mention summer camp. If yeshivas and day schools are truly a priority, then we need to build a community where the majority of parents have the means to pay for their own children's tuitions and where money spent on luxeries like big weddings and camp is discouraged. You simply can't have it all.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 06:02 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Maybe people can try something creative. How about everyone goes to public school from K-3, and then day school after that. At the younger ages, there is much less risk and parents can teach hebrew and some of the basics at home or in after school programs that don't run too late. At that age, you don't have to worry about boys and girls mixing too much in public school since most kids that age think that members of the opposite sex have cooties anyhow. Nor is there much concern about violence or drugs, etc. I don't understand why everyone thinks a child needs to be a Talmudic scholar by age 8. This would save every family 30% in tuition and presumably there would be 30% more scholarship money available if it only had to help out with grades 4-12.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 04:52 PM ellen Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
Well, as someone who has TV and internet ... I feel your pain. But personally I wouldn't move to Lakewood for exactly that reason. My thoughts tend in two directions (well, three directions). 1. Get someone to push for you. (Where do you daven? Can your Rav get anything going for you?) 2. Do consider home school if at all you can. 3. Try Chabad. They are very creative with answers for Jews who are stranded in various forms of Yechupetz. Good luck. I will bli neder think of you in my davening.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 07:02 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
HOME SCHOOLING just like the goyim who dont want to send their kids to public schools
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Aug 19, 2009 at 06:31 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I would like to inform all posters from the five towns that Yeshiva Ateres yisroel in brooklyn is offering a flat rate tuition of 6000 per child reduced thereafter for second third children etc... If there is enough demand they will also provide bus at no additional charge. Commuting time is not more then a half hour. BTW the school is run by rabbi and rebbetzin jungreis Lishma just so people can get a yeshiva education. They never turn a child away it is a first class education. From a parent in the know who sent their child a few years ago.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:38 PM Robert Says:Report as Inappropriate
my late father of blessed memory came from a medium size town in transylvania that had a mix of mitnagdim and chasidim.. first there was mutual respect between the 2 kehilot.
secondly, the standard practice there was that boys (religious ones) went to "gymnasium" (here it is public school) and half a day to the "cheder'
my fathers sister was educated in a convent as were other religious girls as there were no jewish schools for girls. maybe we should look back to jewish traditions that also worked..
i suspect this approach is viable and much more affordable.
i understand there are pros and cons.. however i believe we are at a point in time where all options need to be considered.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:21 PM Robert Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!) ”
you have a valid point and vouchers are one positive idea that i personally have campaigned for..
many small towns actually want our children as a way of bringing diversity and better test scores...
be aware.. instead of a voucher you may get a placement in a fine public school.. parents will then need to decide what works best for all parties involved..
lastly, if most people are not willing to actually enroll their children they will call your bluff.. they are smarter than you may imagine.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 08:17 PM Five Towner Says:Report as Inappropriate
I am not a prolific writer so I will not go to great extents to write, but...
I live in the five towns and all the people who were always kvetching about tuition and those that are leaving yeshivas to public school are those that send their children to the modern schools (v'hameivin yovin).
There are three boys "right wing yeshivas" that offer a superb education at a much cheaper price. 1. Yearly tuition is at around 11k and they grant assistance easily. 2. Has a flat tuition of $4400 (extremely right wing). 3. Is at 6k-8k depending on grade and offers scholarships on need basis.
I pay for my girls at an all girls school 5300 for each, and they did not put me through a humiliating financial aid process.
So, if you'd rather send your child off to public school, rather than to a more right wing yeshiva (where, G-d forbid he should wear a black hat), I won't stop you but don't go blaming the system as a whole.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 07:20 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ HOME SCHOOLING just like the goyim who dont want to send their kids to public schools ”
to all people advocating home schooling, even many non-jewish families without our added expenses have a need for dual income just to get by. Who would you like to stay home and teach? I do agree that shuls and homes can host individual classes without the need for an extra building, however you will still have to pay someone to teach albeit it will be cheaper.The average family cannot get by on one income.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:45 PM Another 5T resident Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am not a prolific writer so I will not go to great extents to write, but...
I live in the five towns and all the people who were always kvetching about tuition and those that are leaving yeshivas to public school are those that send their children to the modern schools (v'hameivin yovin).
There are three boys "right wing yeshivas" that offer a superb education at a much cheaper price. 1. Yearly tuition is at around 11k and they grant assistance easily. 2. Has a flat tuition of $4400 (extremely right wing). 3. Is at 6k-8k depending on grade and offers scholarships on need basis.
I pay for my girls at an all girls school 5300 for each, and they did not put me through a humiliating financial aid process.
So, if you'd rather send your child off to public school, rather than to a more right wing yeshiva (where, G-d forbid he should wear a black hat), I won't stop you but don't go blaming the system as a whole. ”
I am not sure what you are talking about, both "regular" right wing boys yeshivas have almost the same tuition and it is about 10.5K. The extreme one I don't know about. AFAIK they do grant tuition relief pretty easily and if there is a real necessity it is a very deep reduction.
The "middle" girls school is about 6-11K (high school is 11 or 11.5 I can't remember which) depending on grade and they grant financial aid easily. The more right wing one is having a lot of financial trouble and is putting the parents through the wringer but ultimately granting the tuition relief. The "left" girls school is about 10K and I am not familiar enough with it to know how they are with financial aid.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:58 PM i went to one Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am not sure what you are talking about, both "regular" right wing boys yeshivas have almost the same tuition and it is about 10.5K. The extreme one I don't know about. AFAIK they do grant tuition relief pretty easily and if there is a real necessity it is a very deep reduction.
The "middle" girls school is about 6-11K (high school is 11 or 11.5 I can't remember which) depending on grade and they grant financial aid easily. The more right wing one is having a lot of financial trouble and is putting the parents through the wringer but ultimately granting the tuition relief. The "left" girls school is about 10K and I am not familiar enough with it to know how they are with financial aid. ”
I went to a modern all girls school in 5Towns and i cannot tell you how bad i felt about the harassing phone calls my parents got constantly from the fin. aid dept. asking for more money (which my parents didn't have).
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:55 PM farrock Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am not a prolific writer so I will not go to great extents to write, but...
I live in the five towns and all the people who were always kvetching about tuition and those that are leaving yeshivas to public school are those that send their children to the modern schools (v'hameivin yovin).
There are three boys "right wing yeshivas" that offer a superb education at a much cheaper price. 1. Yearly tuition is at around 11k and they grant assistance easily. 2. Has a flat tuition of $4400 (extremely right wing). 3. Is at 6k-8k depending on grade and offers scholarships on need basis.
I pay for my girls at an all girls school 5300 for each, and they did not put me through a humiliating financial aid process.
So, if you'd rather send your child off to public school, rather than to a more right wing yeshiva (where, G-d forbid he should wear a black hat), I won't stop you but don't go blaming the system as a whole. ”
on the other hand, the frummer girl's schools don't always give their teachers their paychecks on time because every other student is on scholarship and they have little funds
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:49 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I have read 97 comments. Some good, some not as good. Shockingly, I have yet to read anyone say that as parents the responsibility is ours and ours alone to pay for our childrens tuition. If I can't (and i can't) I need to step up to the plate and help out. I need to fundraise more, I need to help the school out more, I need to make sure that I do not give ANY other organization even a dollar until i have paid my tuition obligations. The onus is on ME!!!!! Why are we blaming the system, why are we blaming the schools, why are we blaming instead of accepting responsibility? With my attitude, I can tell you first hand every school WANTS to share with me why it truly does cost so much to educate my child. They want me to know so i can see for myself that they are doing everything possible for me. We work well together and have a GREAT relationship. I am happy, they are happy and my kids are happy. Is it easy? No! Not at all! Am I kvetching? NO! I was blessed with children and the harder I work to make sure they are getting the best education at whatever cost to me the better they will turn out. L'foom Tzara Agra.
Try it my way - it won't be easy but it will be satisfying and gratifying. I know when i go to work i expect to be paid on time. Why should my childrens Rebbi and teacher who are blessed with the chance to spend so much time building the foundation for life for my kids in a way far better then i can not be paid on time? Shame on ME for allowing that to happen.
And by the way.......why are so many people hung up on one nut job in Lakewood? The Jewish educational system is at the financial brink, Jewish Continuity is challenged for we may loose kids to public school and so many of you are worried about 1 guy in Lakewood? Get a life people. Look in the mirror and realize the person looking back at you is the only one who can do something. Take action and do and all will be fine. Ignore the ignoramus (in Lakewood - Mr. #9) and focus on a REAL issue.
AND DAVEN, DAVEN, DAVEN, DAVEN AND THEN DAVEN SOME MORE!
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Aug 19, 2009 at 10:21 PM chusidnormal Says:Report as Inappropriate
To the woman claiming that lakewood yeshivos are not accepting your children. I'm sure you've gotten a bunch of comments that stick you like needles. Let's try a different approach. Obvioisly you like the lakewood lifestyle deep in your heart but for for some reason your lifestyle is somewhat different than the majority of lakewood , mabey for reasons that are not your fault . But ,say the yeshiva would accept your child would'nt they be getting mixed messages of chinuch ? Believe me you'le get a couple of years older and you will see the TV and the jeans did not make anyone happier , it just caused fighhts and rifts. Try to adapt slowly , privately . Your life might just change for the better . Again, I am not judging you. Just a thought from heard it and seen it.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 09:53 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am not a prolific writer so I will not go to great extents to write, but...
I live in the five towns and all the people who were always kvetching about tuition and those that are leaving yeshivas to public school are those that send their children to the modern schools (v'hameivin yovin).
There are three boys "right wing yeshivas" that offer a superb education at a much cheaper price. 1. Yearly tuition is at around 11k and they grant assistance easily. 2. Has a flat tuition of $4400 (extremely right wing). 3. Is at 6k-8k depending on grade and offers scholarships on need basis.
I pay for my girls at an all girls school 5300 for each, and they did not put me through a humiliating financial aid process.
So, if you'd rather send your child off to public school, rather than to a more right wing yeshiva (where, G-d forbid he should wear a black hat), I won't stop you but don't go blaming the system as a whole. ”
even assuming that we can all get the same rate you pay for your two girls if you have four kids at that rate that is over 20,000 dollars a year(excluding camp as well) post taxes many of us do not have that extra money. The high end of median income is a $60,000 per year job pre tax. The system is broken
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:48 PM Charlie Hall Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Its about time all Yiddishe families to get together and sign up all our children to public schools. Its been done in the past in Monsey, they all signed up for public schools so now the county is paying for their transportation. It's been done in Monroe, all schools are FREE of tuition costs.
Do you know it costs the City an average of $15,000 a year for each child in public school???? (Source: According to studies by the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, it can cost more than $15,000 per pupil to educate a student in a public school than in many private schools in New York City.)
Let's be realistic, NYC cannot host all our children, they are already bursting out of their seems. Imagine if 100,000 children suddenly sign up for public school?! They will go nuts trying to figure out where to place all these children.
If we all UNITE as ONE and do this TOGETHER we can get this done!
We can get the NYC Dept. of Education give all parents a Voucher for tuition. It will help us pay for tuition and eliminate all heartaches trying to cover our already overwhelming budgets!
Please, all you community organizations; the JCCs, COJOs, Agudah, etc. Get this into action! It's about time somebody did something usefull for the community!
PS Politicians, you can join this fight as well! (If you're interested in getting re-elected!) ”
You forget that the New York City public school system has over 1.1 million children. It can easily handle 1.2 million by increasing class sizes, hiring more teachers, and renting trailers.
And in any case NYC does not have the power to give vouchers; they are prohibited by the New York State Constitution.
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Aug 19, 2009 at 11:45 PM Charlie Hall Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Last week, in connection with the discussion on the Yeshiva in Roosevelt, I commented on the lamentable misallocation (legal, honest, etc., but still misallocation) of funds in the frum community. Kids who live in a thriving Orthodox community, are being sent to Public schools, while little "Yeshivalech" are opening in every little "bevorfineh dorfil" (isolated town) in the U.S. I reiterate that the community at large is responsible.
Monies that fund these schools, in a Perth Amboy, a Bayonne, a Roosevelt, a Paterson, a North Plainfield, an Adelphia, a Belmar, a Mt. Kisco, and countless other "yehoopitses" that have no Orthodox communities, no elementary schools, no shuls, kosher butchers, bakeries, etc. should be spent on the necessities of giving every Jewish boy and girl a basic Torah education. Tuitions should be reasonable. A family with four kids in any Day School or Yeshiva with a dual program (Limudei Kodesh and Chol), is faced with a tuition bill of between 60 and 100,000 per year. That is after taxes!!
Kollelim are wonderful...for a hand picked creme de la creme who will become the next leaders of the next generation. Today, it is almost a carte blanche. Everyone goes to kollel. Can the frum community afford that? Does every college student get a fellowship?.. and that is from the "goyish" community, that is infinitely wealthier than our own. You can get fellowships from Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, etc., but you have to be an exceptionally qualified student. Other students do get their advanced degrees, while working or teaching part time, going to night school, and taking correspondence courses. People can also learn part time, and on Shabbos, Sunday, etc.
We are getting more and more top heavy. No Orthodox child (or any Jewish child) belongs in a Public School. We must prioritize! ”
I don't know about the other communities you mention, but there has been an orthodox synagogue in Mt. Kisco since 1906.
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Aug 20, 2009 at 07:10 AM chief doofis Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I don't know about the other communities you mention, but there has been an orthodox synagogue in Mt. Kisco since 1906. ”
Dear Charlie Hall;
My point is not that there are zero Orthodox Jews in a community. My point is that there is a drive in the Orthodox world, to open up Yeshivot in many areas where an advanced school is not needed. Some of the cities I referred to (and there are many I couldn't remember) do have remnants of Orthodoxy. The purpose of most of these schools, however, is not to strengthen the dwindling community, but rather, to establish "out of town" schools. Many of these schools have little or nothing to do with the old communities. In fact, they are often causes of strife. That is not the point here. The point is, that why do we need a bunch of kids from Brooklyn, the Five Towns, Queens, etc., running off to some isolated community, where some Rosh Yeshiva wannabee, sets up his little fiefdom with thirty or so kids. Every one of those little school s, needs to heat a building, maintain it, pay a bookkeeper, advertise, etc., while every one of those boys could be in his local school. No additional youth is being educated when a school is established in yihoopits. It's far less costly, to open up a new classroom, or fill a not full one, in an already existing Yeshiva in a Jewish area. Less duplication of efforts.
When you show me that 80% of the kids studying in a school live within a few miles, I will readily acknowledge the need for that school. Do you honestly think that there are 30 Orthodox teenagers coming from Roosevelt, NJ? If they did, they would not have the dormitory issue. They would walk home, bicycle home, etc. Ditto for most of the others, including Mt. Kisco.
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Aug 20, 2009 at 07:40 AM The Inside Report Says:Report as Inappropriate
Despite the presumed separation between Church and State, the official School Voucher Program is legal and was approved by the federal government and is currently working very well in DC and other places.
The program is in it's infancy and testing stages and is now perfectly ripe for additional "testing" in NY.
The only reason the "pilot program" is not happening yet in NY is because we are sleeping on it.
Insiders say that many of the established yeshivos actually reject the program and that's why it is not happening.
Some Greedy Yeshivos fear that with the Government paying so much per child, Yeshivos will become profitable and it will spark competition to the existing Mosdos.
So don't expect your local yeshiva to be looking forward to push for vouchers and end up with 10 competitors to it's self, within the same identical ideology.
The "push" has to come form us, the people not from those already in power who all have their own private and personal vested interests.
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Aug 20, 2009 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Despite the presumed separation between Church and State, the official School Voucher Program is legal and was approved by the federal government and is currently working very well in DC and other places.
The program is in it's infancy and testing stages and is now perfectly ripe for additional "testing" in NY.
The only reason the "pilot program" is not happening yet in NY is because we are sleeping on it.
Insiders say that many of the established yeshivos actually reject the program and that's why it is not happening.
Some Greedy Yeshivos fear that with the Government paying so much per child, Yeshivos will become profitable and it will spark competition to the existing Mosdos.
So don't expect your local yeshiva to be looking forward to push for vouchers and end up with 10 competitors to it's self, within the same identical ideology.
The "push" has to come form us, the people not from those already in power who all have their own private and personal vested interests. ”
While the federal courts have upheld the constitutionality of certain voucher programs, the New York STATE consitution still prohibits using tax money to fund religious education. New York is one of 37 states with a Blaine ammendment.
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Aug 20, 2009 at 10:38 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
now that the problem is more in the open are the yeshivas going to allow our children to be forced into public school, because people just don't have the money. what happended to working with people today its either pay or get out
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Aug 20, 2009 at 01:18 PM Shua Cohen Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have read 97 comments. Some good, some not as good. Shockingly, I have yet to read anyone say that as parents the responsibility is ours and ours alone to pay for our childrens tuition. If I can't (and i can't) I need to step up to the plate and help out. I need to fundraise more, I need to help the school out more, I need to make sure that I do not give ANY other organization even a dollar until i have paid my tuition obligations. The onus is on ME!!!!! Why are we blaming the system, why are we blaming the schools, why are we blaming instead of accepting responsibility? With my attitude, I can tell you first hand every school WANTS to share with me why it truly does cost so much to educate my child. They want me to know so i can see for myself that they are doing everything possible for me. We work well together and have a GREAT relationship. I am happy, they are happy and my kids are happy. Is it easy? No! Not at all! Am I kvetching? NO! I was blessed with children and the harder I work to make sure they are getting the best education at whatever cost to me the better they will turn out. L'foom Tzara Agra.
Try it my way - it won't be easy but it will be satisfying and gratifying. I know when i go to work i expect to be paid on time. Why should my childrens Rebbi and teacher who are blessed with the chance to spend so much time building the foundation for life for my kids in a way far better then i can not be paid on time? Shame on ME for allowing that to happen.
And by the way.......why are so many people hung up on one nut job in Lakewood? The Jewish educational system is at the financial brink, Jewish Continuity is challenged for we may loose kids to public school and so many of you are worried about 1 guy in Lakewood? Get a life people. Look in the mirror and realize the person looking back at you is the only one who can do something. Take action and do and all will be fine. Ignore the ignoramus (in Lakewood - Mr. #9) and focus on a REAL issue.
AND DAVEN, DAVEN, DAVEN, DAVEN AND THEN DAVEN SOME MORE! ”
> ...why are so many people hung up on one nut job in Lakewood?... Ignore the ignoramus
>> You made a very intelligent and emotional argument for greater parental responsibility. I only wish that you hadn't sullied your comment with these unnecessary epithets about the Lakewood writer. Even if that commenter was somewhat irrational, gratuitous name-calling is really unbecoming for an erliche Yid. This should be uppermost on everyone's mind this Elul z'man.
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Aug 20, 2009 at 01:43 PM Baal Habos Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ even assuming that we can all get the same rate you pay for your two girls if you have four kids at that rate that is over 20,000 dollars a year(excluding camp as well) post taxes many of us do not have that extra money. The high end of median income is a $60,000 per year job pre tax. The system is broken ”
> The system is broken
"You" are the system!
If 'you" spend 10 years in Kolel and
if "You" have more children than "you" can afford, and if "you" eschew a higher education and if "you" spend more on your Bar-Mitzva's, house, cars, suits, white pressed cufflinked shirts than "You" can afford, then "you" will not be able to afford your own tuition obligations. Klal Yisroel, wake up.
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Aug 20, 2009 at 12:03 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
This is really up to you. You have prioritize. TV, Movies, Internet or a good chinuch for your daughter in Lakewood. If you move out of town you wouldn't have to choose.
Out of town, where the enrollment is smaller, every Jewish child is appreciated.
Hopefully you could grow in ruchnius together with your daughter. If you choose to live in Lakewood your only option is to give it all up. It seems so scary but the end results are worth it. Your Neshama will definitely thank you.
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Aug 21, 2009 at 02:23 AM chanaleah Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have a slightly different problem. We are modern orthodox, living in lakewood, we keep shabbos, kosher and have a 4 year old daughter, but (GASP) we have TV and internet in our home, we go out to the movies, etc. So guess what, not a single school in lakewood will accept our daughter for kindergarden next year. What to do? send her to the lakewood public school system? send her to the conservative/reformed solomon schechter in howell? Have her travel over an hour to the nearest modern school? none of those options are viable, so what does someone like me do? Yes, lakewood, is a yeshivish area, but this is america, its a free country, and we decided to settle here along with our tv, internet, blue jeans and other unaccepted things, so what do we do now? please dont give me some idiotic answer like move out of town. this is our home and we intend to live here. ”
I sympathize with you, and I know it must be hard in a situation like that. I don't know what options are viable for you, but there are some possibilities:
1. Is there any chance of homeschooling or some kind of tutoring? I know it's expensive but maybe you could work something out?
2. Chabad. We're always there to help. I don't know the situation in/around Lakewood, but you could get in touch with nearby shluchim and maybe they will be able to help you.
3. Your daughter's Jewish education is obviously very imortant to you, as it should be. Are you willing to compromise on anything? Maybe if you work on one thing they will reconsider...? (I really have never been to Lakewood and am not familiar with the schools there at all, but some schools I know will make exceptions if they see you are at least making an effort.)
4. Whatever ends up happening, PLEASE try as hard as you can to make sure your daughter doesn't end up in a non-Torah-observant school! Right now she is at the time where the foundations of her Jewish identity and future are being laid, and they must be as strong as possible. Do whatever you can to ensure that she will be able to grow to her fullest.
5. Keep davening, and know that whatever ends up happening is meant to be and from Hashem.
Wishing you much success!
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Aug 21, 2009 at 09:52 AM chief doofis Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I sympathize with you, and I know it must be hard in a situation like that. I don't know what options are viable for you, but there are some possibilities:
1. Is there any chance of homeschooling or some kind of tutoring? I know it's expensive but maybe you could work something out?
2. Chabad. We're always there to help. I don't know the situation in/around Lakewood, but you could get in touch with nearby shluchim and maybe they will be able to help you.
3. Your daughter's Jewish education is obviously very imortant to you, as it should be. Are you willing to compromise on anything? Maybe if you work on one thing they will reconsider...? (I really have never been to Lakewood and am not familiar with the schools there at all, but some schools I know will make exceptions if they see you are at least making an effort.)
4. Whatever ends up happening, PLEASE try as hard as you can to make sure your daughter doesn't end up in a non-Torah-observant school! Right now she is at the time where the foundations of her Jewish identity and future are being laid, and they must be as strong as possible. Do whatever you can to ensure that she will be able to grow to her fullest.
5. Keep davening, and know that whatever ends up happening is meant to be and from Hashem.
Wishing you much success! ”
I have my own difficulties with the Hashkafa of many Charedi Yeshivot. Nonetheless, it's their ball in their court. If someone lived in Skver or Kiryas Yoel, and their son dressed completely different than everyone else, or their daughter did, what would you do? Conversely, if you live in a town with only a Conservative Day School, what would you do?
For better or for worse, Lakewood is what it is. If a school accepts your child, her classmates will probably not accept her. Sticking around in Lakewood, is not going to gain her much of a social life. Transporting her to Elizabeth or Edison is not very easy for a four year old. There is a school in Deal / Long Branch that might work, but there might be a different culture gap. Unfortunately, the local Bezalel Day School in Lakewood is defunct. Chabad has little presence in Lakewood, and their hashkafa also opposes TV, etc. (although they are less outspoken).
There is little choice other than to conform a little more, or to relocate.
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Aug 21, 2009 at 02:22 PM Robert Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have my own difficulties with the Hashkafa of many Charedi Yeshivot. Nonetheless, it's their ball in their court. If someone lived in Skver or Kiryas Yoel, and their son dressed completely different than everyone else, or their daughter did, what would you do? Conversely, if you live in a town with only a Conservative Day School, what would you do?
For better or for worse, Lakewood is what it is. If a school accepts your child, her classmates will probably not accept her. Sticking around in Lakewood, is not going to gain her much of a social life. Transporting her to Elizabeth or Edison is not very easy for a four year old. There is a school in Deal / Long Branch that might work, but there might be a different culture gap. Unfortunately, the local Bezalel Day School in Lakewood is defunct. Chabad has little presence in Lakewood, and their hashkafa also opposes TV, etc. (although they are less outspoken).
There is little choice other than to conform a little more, or to relocate. ”
what would you and the other readers here say if the problem was reversed..
say it was a modern orthodox day school that didnt want a child because he and his dad wore black hats and had tzittis hanging out and not in..
in most orthodox day schools, technology sciences is very much a part of the curriculum .. (that means monitored internet in the school itself)
now just imagine if the school turned down this family because the father did not work but studied all day in kollel... and the reason given is that these are the wrong values that we dont want our children exposed to...
id like to see how people here would react about denying such a child admission to an orthodox school because the parents are quasi-charedi
i hope the message is clear
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Aug 21, 2009 at 05:11 PM starwolf Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ what would you and the other readers here say if the problem was reversed..
say it was a modern orthodox day school that didnt want a child because he and his dad wore black hats and had tzittis hanging out and not in..
in most orthodox day schools, technology sciences is very much a part of the curriculum .. (that means monitored internet in the school itself)
now just imagine if the school turned down this family because the father did not work but studied all day in kollel... and the reason given is that these are the wrong values that we dont want our children exposed to...
id like to see how people here would react about denying such a child admission to an orthodox school because the parents are quasi-charedi
i hope the message is clear ”
Of course, the people associated with a private school should be able to establish the standards for that school. Personally, however, I would not deny someone of a different level of observance the ability to avail their children of a Jewish education. I see no harm in allowing children of vcarying backgrounds to atend a single school, but that is just me.
However, given the original topic of this thread--i.e. the funding difficulties for Jewish education, people are so adamant about their differences--and such trivial ones at that. Whether their families have a TV, how the parents dress--this is considered a valid reason for excluding a child? If so, then perhaps it is not a good idea to approach other types of people for funding such a school. And, as we all know, there is no lack of fundraisers approaching members of MO shuls for contributions for Hareidi institutions. In cases like that, we are told that "kol Yisrael areivim zeh la zeh". Why does that not hold true when the issue is accepting a child into a school?
Luckily for my family, we live in a place with many choices of Jewish education, all of them relatively inexpensive and most heavily subsidized by the State. That is, of course, because it is our state. And we susidize widely differing types of education, even those that theach that the state is not "our state" and that the very idea of the state is evil. We try our best to ensure that the children of those people also receive a Jewish education.
The reason is that, b'emet--kol Yisrael areivim zeh la zeh, and our little country does its best.