“ Time Magazine had once published the following:

" One reason why homosexuals are so rarely cured is that they rarely try treatment. Too many of them actually believe that they are happy and satisfied the way they are.

Another reason, says Philadelphia's Dr. Samuel B. Hadden, is that too many psychiatrists are still inhibited by the 45-year-old pessimism of Freud, who was convinced that the condition was discouragingly difficult to treat.

Even when psychiatrists do try to aid homosexuals, their efforts are likely to be ineffectual because they themselves have so little confidence of success.

Both patients and doctors are wrong, Dr. Hadden told the American Group Psychotherapy Association in San Francisco last week. " ”

“ i predicit burstien will be put in charem ”

“ "Having homosexual urges in not a sin," he said. "Giving in to them is. It's just like someone who has an urge to steal, as long as he fights that urge why should we blame him?"


While respecting Rabbi Aviner highly, it is pretty clear that there is a prohibition in allowing one's mind to reflect upon homosexual urges. The verse in the Torah says, "Velo sasuru acharei levachem veachafrei ainaychem." The Mishna Brurah rules that while if the thought pops up in one's head there is no sin, allowing it to linger is definitely a sin. This is in the first siman of Shulchan Aruch.

This whole solution is predicated upon the idea that the homosexual is not violating velo sasuru acharei ainaychem. Since the Mishna Brurah rules that it isa violation, I doubt Rav Elyashiv will sign off on it.

”

“ Let them get help first -then get married. There are plenty of normal old buchirim around for these women to marry, they don't have to marry queers. Also, how could you trust them? The halacha clearly states that yichud is ossur with a man to man where there are these type of inclinations. It sounds like he ( Burnstein) wants to help, but he is misguided. Also, to call someone a Rabbi, who believes the psychologists view that you are born with this type of feelings is ludicrous. Not that long ago, the mental health community held the toeiva lifestyle was a mental illness, but they changed due to the militant gays and political pressure! ”

“ while there are many questions that can arrise from such an arrangment - as in who would want to marry gay men? and are we not putting a stumbling block b4 the blind when we encourage 2 gay men to live t/g etc...The concept and idea that this Rabbi is addressing is revelutionary and should be condoned. Finally a Rabbi realizing that this issue exists and tries (albeit not very well) to help these men. Kol HaKavod to the Rabbi. There should be more Rabbis like him. Rabbis who see issues that need to be addressed - and dont shy away and pretend they don't exist. ”

“ Kol Hakovod to Rav Burtstein. He shows more common sense than most of the rabbonim who bury their heads in the ssand and make believe this problem doesn't exist. He shows the path towards reconciling halacha with the frailities of the human soul ”

“ I don't get it. Are you saying you don't believe the Torah over these studies???

The Torah never said it's impossible to develope such an orientation, it just is very clear that it's within choice to fight it and get rid of it.

Look, forget about homos - Do you think modern psycology is right over the Torah? they say a person doesn't have free will all together!!! ”

“ I seem to have missed the commentary in the Torah, when calling the practice of homsexuality a Toevah, that states that these men are NOT born with these feelings and to say they are is "ludicrous."

Is there a miforesh that I missed? Please clue me in.

Just for clarification: I think natural predilection is just one factor ultimately affecting one's so-called "orientation." But to say that there is no genetic component whatsoever, is simply misinformed. ”

“ You are obviously one of them, because you refute the torah. Calling our religion- silly religious taboos and myths is apikorsus. You are trying to say all shrinks are apis because they believe in what you're saying. This a lie, even a lot of goyishe shrinks don't believe this. Also, your education is very poor, you must be one of those liberal Jews, who think they know everything. BTW, we still use shock therapy and leeches are used in certain situations. Just shock therapy got a bad name in the seventies because of movies like "One flew over the cuckoo's nest", so they don't use it as often anymore but it is still used. Stop reading the NY Times for your info and go read some science textbooks if it's not during your torah time. Also, I hope these people never get married until they get cured, if they can be cured. ”

“ First of all, anyone using words like "homo" and "queer" cannot possibly make a rational argument because hatred is clearly the driving force. Such disgusting and dehumanizing language should have no place in a rational discussion.

In years past, men would marry and have secret, illicit affairs with other men. That is how homosexuality was practiced all over the world, and in all the major religions as well. Today, we understand more about these people and these toavos. If we can recognize the intense inclination that they have as "legitimate", we can certainly find compassion as well.

I don't know if this guy has the right answer, but at least he is willing to try. I can see why gay men and women would sign up for this. They too want to have families, and want to be on the side of Torah. Perhaps some honesty between them is the way to go. Imagine if you had to live your life every single day as if you were an actor in a play.... never being honest with anyone.... even your wife. That sounds like a terrible life to me. Let's see this man's results and then judge. ”

“ Your posting is a credit to the VIN open diaglogue and williingness to allow even the most challenged posters to express their views. I alsso wish your family the best if you still believe in shock therapy and leaches as acceptable medical practice. ”

“ As a point in fact, both these methods are still used today. Whether or not you wish to "believe" in them. ”

“ For some reason, my original 2 posts were not allowed on:
1. Just like there are gay men, there are woman like that as well. The simple solution would have such a woman marry such a man.
2. Is there an Issur Yichud for 2 such men to be together?
I write this in all seriousness and not as a random joke - please post. ”

“ Time Magazine had once published the following:

" One reason why homosexuals are so rarely cured is that they rarely try treatment. Too many of them actually believe that they are happy and satisfied the way they are.

Another reason, says Philadelphia's Dr. Samuel B. Hadden, is that too many psychiatrists are still inhibited by the 45-year-old pessimism of Freud, who was convinced that the condition was discouragingly difficult to treat.

Even when psychiatrists do try to aid homosexuals, their efforts are likely to be ineffectual because they themselves have so little confidence of success.

Both patients and doctors are wrong, Dr. Hadden told the American Group Psychotherapy Association in San Francisco last week. " ”

“ The gay people define themselves as queer. Think Queer eye for the staright guy and Queer Nation and hundereds of other times they use it as their name. The poster who was writing Homo was using it as shortened version of the full word and not in a perogitive way.

More likely you just doo not want to hear what the person had to say. ”

“ it won't work if the man doesn't have any love for his wife...its basically an abusive marriage emotionally for her if he has a "friend" who he sees on the side, and it's confusing to the children ”

“ I almost fell of my chair with laughter, you are citing an article by Time Magazine from Feb. 12 1965 and Time Magazine was citing Dr. Samuel B. Hadden work from 1937, more then seventy years ago, you rely on old not proven, no effect methods, gays are born gay and if you want to cite something, please cite something more recent like the last ten-fifteen years. ”

“ Reply to #20
Excuse me, but you wrote a very big am haratzos. The lav of "vlo sasuru" certainly applies only to having bad thoughts of "znus" and "apikursos", not stealing. However, normally when one mentions this prohibition one would thing of a man having thoughts of a woman, so the Chinuch (and an other rishon, which I don't remember off hand) makes it clear that the same issur applies to woman thinking about men and to men about other men. ”

“ Reply to #20
Excuse me, but you wrote a very big am haratzos. The lav of "vlo sasuru" certainly applies only to having bad thoughts of "znus" and "apikursos", not stealing. However, normally when one mentions this prohibition one would thing of a man having thoughts of a woman, so the Chinuch (and an other rishon, which I don't remember off hand) makes it clear that the same issur applies to woman thinking about men and to men about other men. ”

“ Yes. And SOME African Americans use the "N" word. It does not make it OK. It is a crude and derogatory term. ”

“ I didn't write #12, but since the torah doesn't say specifically whether you are born with these taavos or develop them later -there can be a discussion about this. Read my #9 and see what the mental health community thought about homosexuals, not that long ago. Also, I did a net search for you and this is what I found -"A recent position paper of the Catholic Medical Association and an article in the secular journal Professional Psychology, published last month by the American Psychological Association, make the same point. Both cite current medical research and clinical experiences to conclude that homosexuality is not a fixed characteristic and that motivated patients respond well to therapy." This was written in 2002. Recent enough for you? Did you ever wonder why so many people insist that this lifestyle is inherent? I think this was created by some gays to counter- act the more liberal thinking people in America even if most of America belong to some sort of religion. This train of thought would have the American bleeding hearts saying -it's not their fault, they were born that way. Anyone who ever learnt any torah -knows that even if this would be true -it's irrelevant. There are a lot people who are misguided in their feelings towards homosexuals (too liberal) and from the comments here you see a lot of them are frum. So tell me what should normal society do - should we let them get married? In the frum society this marriage is one gay to a lesbian, just to have kids. In the goyishe world, this marriage is a man to a man or a woman to a woman. I'm against either marriage and I'm against kids being raised by such types of couples. Where does all this end -where do we draw the line? I believe- first people should get the psychological help that they need and then they can join the rest of society by getting married (man to woman) and having & raising children! ”

“ For some reason, my original 2 posts were not allowed on:
1. Just like there are gay men, there are woman like that as well. The simple solution would have such a woman marry such a man.
2. Is there an Issur Yichud for 2 such men to be together?
I write this in all seriousness and not as a random joke - please post. ”

“ I didn't write #12, but since the torah doesn't say specifically whether you are born with these taavos or develop them later -there can be a discussion about this. Read my #9 and see what the mental health community thought about homosexuals, not that long ago. Also, I did a net search for you and this is what I found -"A recent position paper of the Catholic Medical Association and an article in the secular journal Professional Psychology, published last month by the American Psychological Association, make the same point. Both cite current medical research and clinical experiences to conclude that homosexuality is not a fixed characteristic and that motivated patients respond well to therapy." This was written in 2002. Recent enough for you? Did you ever wonder why so many people insist that this lifestyle is inherent? I think this was created by some gays to counter- act the more liberal thinking people in America even if most of America belong to some sort of religion. This train of thought would have the American bleeding hearts saying -it's not their fault, they were born that way. Anyone who ever learnt any torah -knows that even if this would be true -it's irrelevant. There are a lot people who are misguided in their feelings towards homosexuals (too liberal) and from the comments here you see a lot of them are frum. So tell me what should normal society do - should we let them get married? In the frum society this marriage is one gay to a lesbian, just to have kids. In the goyishe world, this marriage is a man to a man or a woman to a woman. I'm against either marriage and I'm against kids being raised by such types of couples. Where does all this end -where do we draw the line? I believe- first people should get the psychological help that they need and then they can join the rest of society by getting married (man to woman) and having & raising children! ”

“ I didn't write #12, but since the torah doesn't say specifically whether you are born with these taavos or develop them later -there can be a discussion about this. Read my #9 and see what the mental health community thought about homosexuals, not that long ago. Also, I did a net search for you and this is what I found -"A recent position paper of the Catholic Medical Association and an article in the secular journal Professional Psychology, published last month by the American Psychological Association, make the same point. Both cite current medical research and clinical experiences to conclude that homosexuality is not a fixed characteristic and that motivated patients respond well to therapy." This was written in 2002. Recent enough for you? Did you ever wonder why so many people insist that this lifestyle is inherent? I think this was created by some gays to counter- act the more liberal thinking people in America even if most of America belong to some sort of religion. This train of thought would have the American bleeding hearts saying -it's not their fault, they were born that way. Anyone who ever learnt any torah -knows that even if this would be true -it's irrelevant. There are a lot people who are misguided in their feelings towards homosexuals (too liberal) and from the comments here you see a lot of them are frum. So tell me what should normal society do - should we let them get married? In the frum society this marriage is one gay to a lesbian, just to have kids. In the goyishe world, this marriage is a man to a man or a woman to a woman. I'm against either marriage and I'm against kids being raised by such types of couples. Where does all this end -where do we draw the line? I believe- first people should get the psychological help that they need and then they can join the rest of society by getting married (man to woman) and having & raising children! ”

“ why cant they love each other??
they may not love each other the way a normal couple does, but they can love each other as friends.
i'm female, i'm not attracted to any other females (thank g-d), but i still have female friends that i love! It can be the same way here. i think ”

“ #9 or #12 it is no different you claim that they could get help that by itself is the same as #12. We all know that the Church with some like minded Doctors claim that they could reverse homosexuality, however, the mainstream doctors say it is biological tendency, in any argument you always could find somebody who is just trying to justify their preconceived position or beliefs, it took the Church three hundredth years to admit that the earth is not the center of our universe and today you still have a flat earth society, need I say more. ”

“ And who says they're wrong? I don't believe the shrinks that say there is nothing they can do about it, even if 100% of the APA signed off on it. They just want to be PC. I still believe what they held 30 years ago that is a mental illness. Not everyone can be cured, but at least they should try. Plus, your comparison is nonsense -the 300 hundred years that the church held that position -how many scientists agreed? I quoted two recent articles -one was from the catholic med assoc. and the other was from a secular source. You can disagree all you want but who says who's right? ”

“ Any magazine will take a article by a doctor as long he has a degree, you failed to cite your so called secular source, without naming the Doctor, if you are citing Doctor A. Dean Byrd, from NARTH (National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality) who pushes his "reparative therapy" views he and a few more agree with your assumption, but the current body of science believes otherwise. One more point, abut the Church, in 1610 Galileo published his observations with the telescope and his conclusions that the sun is the center of the universe. On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture. In March 2008 the Vatican proposed to complete its rehabilitation of Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican wall. Well you tell me since the 20th century how many scientists agreed with the Church, but it still took them almost 400 years to admit to their mistake.
One more point as you said “I believe” I cannot agree more with you, yes it is only your “believe” but no science to back it up. ”

“ You talk like your educated, but education doesn't come from the NY times, like I said before. While you are correct about any news magazine will take an article from anyone, the articles I was talking about were written in professional journals. They don't take articles from any "Doc". There is criteria to get published. Your views are very pro homosexuals -I wonder why? I never heard of Narth till you mentioned it. Now I see, after some research that the purpose of this org. was to oppose the militant gay takeover of the APA. But, like you said- they weren't successful. You make it seem that this Narth is a small org. with one man's opinion about gay treatment. The TRUTH is - 75 mental health professionals signed a petition agreeing with him. Some of these professionals are members of the APA. And I'm willing to bet most of the governing council who voted against therapy, probably did it because they wanted to be PC, not because they thought it can't possibly work! ”

“ Any magazine will take a article by a doctor as long he has a degree, you failed to cite your so called secular source, without naming the Doctor, if you are citing Doctor A. Dean Byrd, from NARTH (National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality) who pushes his "reparative therapy" views he and a few more agree with your assumption, but the current body of science believes otherwise. One more point, abut the Church, in 1610 Galileo published his observations with the telescope and his conclusions that the sun is the center of the universe. On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture. In March 2008 the Vatican proposed to complete its rehabilitation of Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican wall. Well you tell me since the 20th century how many scientists agreed with the Church, but it still took them almost 400 years to admit to their mistake.
One more point as you said “I believe” I cannot agree more with you, yes it is only your “believe” but no science to back it up. ”

“ You talk like your educated, but education doesn't come from the NY times, like I said before. While you are correct about any news magazine will take an article from anyone, the articles I was talking about were written in professional journals. They don't take articles from any "Doc". There is criteria to get published. Your views are very pro homosexuals -I wonder why? I never heard of Narth till you mentioned it. Now I see, after some research that the purpose of this org. was to oppose the militant gay takeover of the APA. But, like you said- they weren't successful. You make it seem that this Narth is a small org. with one man's opinion about gay treatment. The TRUTH is - 75 mental health professionals signed a petition agreeing with him. Some of these professionals are members of the APA. And I'm willing to bet most of the governing council who voted against therapy, probably did it because they wanted to be PC, not because they thought it can't possibly work! ”

“ Your comparison is laughable. Queer is a designation that designate for themselves. If it is the same as the "N" word, do you think it would be the name of a television show? Take a deep breath and admit, you are once again wrong. ”

“ When quoting "experts" it is important to cite the name of the expert. Many so-called "experts" on the right and left are dishonest and promote their own agendas. It is important to look at the context and the source of the information. ”

“ Since you don't believe what I wrote in #49 without a name, here it is- "The American Psychological Association article, written by Warren Throckmorton, a professor and counselor at Grove City College, a Christian school in Pennsylvania, analyzed 11 studies conducted during a 20-year period." The article's date should be around June or July 2002. I'm not going to quote the whole article -you can look it up. But you're right, after researching Narth there seems to be a lot of professionals whom believe in this "reparative therapy". I personally never heard of it till now. The reason being is that a lot of info that I receive is mainly through our liberal media. The media almost never will present the conservative view especially when there are real experts who agree with this view. ”

“ After my reply to your post, I decided to reply to your question “Your views are very pro homosexuals -I wonder why?” One I am not pro or con homosexuals I believe that every human being has the right to pursue of happiness, within the limits of the law of the land. Two as a first generation survivor I learned from history that when any group are singled out as none-desirable, Jews are not far behind. The fact is whenever you curtail any human rights eventually they will try to foist their views on the Jews. Therefore, yes I believe that Jews in particular should stand up to gay bashing whenever possible. Personally I don’t care what so called Rabbis proclaim, history educated me that they are wrong ”

“ Your history reading is one sided that's clear,it's also clear you have no understansting of history .Just one example," the enlightened" in germany thought they could outsmart the gemara about antisemitism,and deal with it by taking away what they thought were all the the cause of it.All they got in return for their efforts were the gas chambers.If you are for people living against Hashem's wil,well i feel very sorry for you. ”

“ You fail to realize that I was the one who pointed you to NARTH even though I am on the opposite side of this argument the reason I know what their view is and I know the overwhelming majority of experts disagrees with their objectives, which is Church driven, as to your citation from professor Throckmorton, well look at his Bio on his web page here is a quote “I am on the Clinical Advisory Board of the American Association of Christian Counselors”. Do I need to say more, it would be the same if some Rabbi who is ultra orthodox would argue that he has a cure; well he is biased to his religious view. This is were we are back to my argument that it took the Church almost 400 years to admit the sun is the center of our universe, which you failed to answer. ”

“ I feel bad for you liberals- only a person who isn't religious can be trusted to do an unbiased study. In my mind it's just the opposite -a liberal who's PC and pro gays can't be trusted to do an unbiased study. Also, I'm not answering anything about the church; I don't have to defend their scientific view on the universe. And your point is irrelevant to whether they are biased in scientific study all together. These aren't the same people. ”

“ No I never said “only a person who isn't religious can be trusted to do an unbiased study” every person comes with their biases, however when dogma is at the heart of the question/study you need to take that into account, are these professionals aligned with their religious views, taken all these different views into consideration the mainstream professionals who are not aligned with the church are in direct conflict with NARTH, this is not a liberal/conservative issue it is a human rights issue,
As to the Church’s view you are the one who relied on a group who are aligned with the Church, therefore any view is suspected. And if you don’t want to defend the Church’s scientific views, then don’t cite Professor Throckmorton neither and your original post is meaningless, and please don’t feel bad for me, I feel quite comfortable in my skin.
”

“ Stop contradicting yourself- "every person comes with their biases ...- the mainstream professionals who are not aligned with the church are in direct conflict with NARTH, this is not a liberal/conservative issue it is a human rights issue". First you say, everyone is biased and then you say only religious people are. Why do you call the non-religious- "mainstream professionals"? What does human rights have to do with this? Are we physically stopping gay behavior by imprisonment or death? Or are we advocating treatment for a mental illness. This is a lib/conservative issue. Also, you obviously didn't read my post - I said I don't have to defend their views on the universe, but I agree with their views on gays. One thing has nothing to do with the other. It's not even the same science. ”

“ There is only a “grain” of truth in your assessment, initially Herzl did not advance the Zionist ideology but he was a proponent of the Enlightenment, but during the Dreyfus affair he decided to embrace the Zionistic ideology, but you fail to make a connection between the enlightenment and the homosexual, mentally challenged, Romani people better known as Gypsies, and blacks why did they got killed by Hitler they did not celebrate the Enlightenment or Zionism which is the core of my argument, additionally your ad-hominem attacks, are not helpful to understand the issues before us. ”

“ It seems that when I am dealing with you I feel like I am in my own circular reference, for the last time let me enlighten you, lets look at your post # 49 after going back and fort that you didn’t wire post # 9 you cited
"A recent position paper of the Catholic Medical Association and an article in the secular journal Professional Psychology, published last month by the American Psychological Association, make the same point”
So in post #56 I replied post #9 or #12 it really doesn’t make any difference, if you cite a position paper of the Catholic Medical Association, and I challenged you to defend the Church’s action via vie the Galileo episode, your final reply in post # 71 you said “I don't have to defend their views on the universe”, I never said you have to defend them, but you cannot selectively decide which science study you will accept, without explaining why, so the reader could make an informative decision if to accept your proposition, that is what debate is all about. As for your claim that I am contradicting my own argument, sorry read it again I said and continue to say that everyone has their own biases, but there are two types of scientist the first one comes to the table without any preconceived notions and uses observation and notes to decided that a particular outcome will happen, however when the Church or any dogma is evolved then, they come with a preconceived notion i.e. earth is the center of the universe, gays could be cured, then they try to fit the outcome with their original proposition, and that is what I said, not that you cannot trust then, you could, but you have to take inconsideration all their biases. Last but not least, if this argument would have been a true conservative v liberal argument then conservatives need to take the position let the government stay out of our bedroom and not get involved in gay marriage and adoption and so on, for them it is a religious v secular battle. In my view the minute it is religious v secular battle it automatically becomes a human rights issue.
”

“ I did expain why accepting and agreeing with one view has nothing to with another Catholic view in 2 of my posts. Maybe I have to spell it out for you: 1. Their scientific position on the universe is not the same science as mental illness. The study of the universe is astrology. The study of mental illness is psychology. 2. Even if they were the same scientific subjects, the people who believed what they did about the universe are NOT the same people who wrote about homosexual behavior. Why aren't the people who wrote about homosexuality believable just because they belong to the same group? You write -"the first one comes to the table without any preconceived notions and uses observation and notes to decided that a particular outcome will happen, however when the Church or any dogma is evolved then, they come with a preconceived notion ". It seems you are the one with preconceived notion. Maybe it's the scientist who doesn't believe in religion is biased to report out something against religion, because he doesn't believe religious dogma. He wants to be PC, so he disregards the studies done by other people, some of them who are religious people. I think the studies done by religious people are more believable than the others because why should they lie? Contrary to your preconcieved notion, religious people have no interest to make gay people straight. It's not our sin, it's their's. If religious people controlled the gov., then that would be a different story, but this is not the case. ”

“ I am suprised ,how does your post respond to mine.I was clearly referring to your full of contempt comment on rabbanim.If you want to mention herzl.Well.he's another example of failing to find a soulition to antisemitism,the last 60 years has proved as much.If you think that by standing up for people Hashem is against you are fighting anti semitism you are mistaken.The torah say clearly what happens if we turn away from Hashem. ”

“ Well, if you need me to explain again my reply, I will oblige you, as long as you willing to listen to reason, in post # 67 you challenged my post # 62, I wrote that as a survivors son I believe that whoever hates/disparages gays hate Jews too, and history taught me that whoever is a racist or homophobe hates Jews to, you challenged me and said I don’t know history and preceded to give me a example the enlightened Jews in Germany who thought they could outsmart the Gamora, and Hashem showed them and they got the gas chambers instead. From reading your reply my understanding was that you are not saying that Hashem brought on the Jews the gas-chambers because of homosexuality, even though they whole discussion was about gay behavior if it is something that you could heal, that did not make any sense, I took the next best argument that you challenging me with the total enlightenment philosophy, so I laid out the enlightenment prospective, first they believed that as long Jews don’t behave as Jews they will leave us alone, but during the Dreyfus affair they changed their view and said regardless if we follow Jewish tradition or not theses countries will never treat us as equal citizens, the new battle cry was we need our own land and then we will be traded as a nation among other nations, so your argument is that Hashem brought the holocaust as a punishment for turning away from him. Here is my simple reply in post # 68 You supposition is wrong the fact is you failed to make a connection between the enlightenment and the homosexual, mentally challenged, Romani people better known as Gypsies, and blacks why did they got killed by Hitler they did not celebrate the Enlightenment or Zionism, why would they get the same gas chambers as the chosen ones. Finally my debate on this form was about Gays if they could be healed and I was using the blood thirty racists who gassed and killed six million Jews and three million none Jews as an example that they hate Gays too. And as the old saying goes the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not they reason why Hashem brought on us the holocaust. ”

“ "Having homosexual urges in not a sin," he said. "Giving in to them is. It's just like someone who has an urge to steal, as long as he fights that urge why should we blame him?"


While respecting Rabbi Aviner highly, it is pretty clear that there is a prohibition in allowing one's mind to reflect upon homosexual urges. The verse in the Torah says, "Velo sasuru acharei levachem veachafrei ainaychem." The Mishna Brurah rules that while if the thought pops up in one's head there is no sin, allowing it to linger is definitely a sin. This is in the first siman of Shulchan Aruch.

This whole solution is predicated upon the idea that the homosexual is not violating velo sasuru acharei ainaychem. Since the Mishna Brurah rules that it isa violation, I doubt Rav Elyashiv will sign off on it.

”