Jerusalem – Rabbonim Re-Issue Sweeping Ban Against Shabbos Elevators

    80

    Jerusalem – A psak halochoh issued this morning (Tuesday) by gedolei Yisroel, including for the first time HaRav Yosef Sholom Eliyashiv, lays forth a sweeping ban against the use of Shabbos elevators.

    Join our WhatsApp group

    Subscribe to our Daily Roundup Email


    Riding these elevators involves “a serious prohibition of chilul Shabbos mamash,” reads the ruling, which was signed by HaRav, HaRav Shmuel Halevy Wosner, HaRav Chaim Kanievsky and HaRav Nissim Karelitz shlita. “We have been presented with written and oral opinions by expert, certified elevator technicians and engineers, and have found that the use of these elevators, whether for riding up or down, directly generates forces that could entail performing malocho d’oreiso, and no institute, etc. that permits these [elevators] should be relied upon.”

    Alongside his signature, HaRav Eliyashiv added in handwriting, “Regarding Shabbos elevators, I am also of the opinion that they should not be used on Shabbos, whether for riding up or down.”

    Rav Yisrael Rozen, head of the Zomet Institute for Halacha and Technology, said in response, “According to halacha it is of utmost importance to hear the other side, and in this matter there is definitely another side. Rulings must be explicated, and unfortunately this ruling was not explicated.”

    The Psak

    Rozen, a national-religious dayan, said he relies on rulings by HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l and his talmidim, such as HaRav Yehoshua Neubirt, author of Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchoso (which cites various rulings), adding that as far as he knows no real changes have emerged recently regarding Shabbos elevators.

    “There is a group of rabbonim from Bnei Brak who object to every matter related to technological advancement and halochoh, without looking into the case,” Rozen said following the publication of the psak.

    “I have contacted all of the rabbonim on several occasions, asking for a meeting, but I didn’t receive replies,” Rozen told Hebrew-language website Haredim. “Is that darkoh shel Torah? It’s not right and it’s not in accordance with the Torah. Insiders close to the rabbonim do as they please. It looks like someone sat down on Yom Kippur and thought how he could ‘merit’ a new chumroh, and that’s how the letter [containing the psak] made its way into the paper.”

    Rozen claims that if the rabbonim listen to his arguments in favor of Shabbos elevators and still uphold the ban, he would honor their decision. He says Shabbos becomes very trying for elderly, sick and handicapped people without the use of these elevators, and claims he has signed testimonies that prominent charedi rabbonim have used Shabbos elevators in hotels.


    Listen to the VINnews podcast on:

    iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Stitcher | Podbean | Amazon

    Follow VINnews for Breaking News Updates


    Connect with VINnews

    Join our WhatsApp group


    80 Comments
    Most Voted
    Newest Oldest
    Inline Feedbacks
    View all comments
    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I hope none of these Rabbonim ever have to visit a hopsital on Shabbos!

    Moish
    Moish
    14 years ago

    soon they will say you can’t use central air conditioning because the fact that your breathing air will cause the compressor to work harder and longer

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    my charedi rav says its not a problem . ask your own rav or rabbi before jumping to an extreme psak!

    Not my rabbis
    Not my rabbis
    14 years ago

    I never said that these poskim were _my_ poskim, and most of you probably never explicitly decided that either. Why does it seem to be that everyone takes it for granted that they are so universally deserving of our following?

    Cage
    Cage
    14 years ago

    Here we go again, the same people who went after Crocs, have struck again. #1 They give a one sided biased story to a Rav, who then tells them its better not to do/use it. #2 They then change the story and post it all over stating that so and so Rabbi said this. They did it with the Lipa concert, and here we go again. I personally have heard with my own ears, Rabbi Yisroel Belsky, (who is fluent with technology) backing the use of a shabbos elevator.

    Narishkeit
    Narishkeit
    14 years ago

    Maybe we should sit in the dark, let our food spoil, shvitz in the summer, freeze in the winter, and eat cold food like Karaites/Tzedukim while we are at it.

    Araleh
    Araleh
    14 years ago

    The Gedolim unfortunetly have people around them who choose to be “machmirim”. These “machmirim” are making their bones on these psakim!! They are aportunists, they find ways to make them selves famous by coming up with issues which should be dealt with out most care. Rather they choose to be machmir on other people’s cheshbon.
    The concept of Shabbos elevator was never intended to be used for the healthy! It was only intended for the sick!
    At which point I’d like to point out that the “Kol Koreh” shown in the article doesn’t stipulate any difference between the two!

    Rabbosai it’s time to get the Gedolims ears!!! Let them hear what the velt has to offer!! The real issues!!! If they choose to ban things after hearing all sides then we must obide by the psak! But as long as they only hear their information from few “primitive/limmited in thinking” people we shall do our outmost to promote changes and new available items, such as Shabbos elevator, etc… to make lives for the sicka nd teh handicapped better!!

    Gadolwannabe
    Gadolwannabe
    14 years ago

    It’s one thing to assur a shabbos clock to turn on the lights as Rav Moshe, zt’l did because “it is not Shabbosdik”. It is another thing to assur an elevator on scientific grounds without specifying the physical phenomena which makes it assur.The end result is that these Chareidi rabbanim who have been looked upon with reverence for decades will forever have their legacies tarnished by these rediculous prononcements.

    Maurice B.
    Maurice B.
    14 years ago

    There’s an old saying (which experts say is not actually true) that a shark must keep moving or it will die. I get the feeling that some people think that Halacha is like a shark. If it doesn’t move it will die. And since it is practically impossible (in the eyes of some) for Halacha ever to move toward leniency, Halacha apparently must always move in the direction of stringency. So it should come as no real surprise that shabbos elevators have now become a target for the Halacha “sharks.”

    shimon
    shimon
    14 years ago

    I’m not sure whats the big deal? Is this the first time people hear about deisagreement between poskim?? RSZA mattired the elevator and many other shabbos projects from Zomet, other poskim didn’t. This is hardly news.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    We should do all we can to publicize this Psak Halacha, Takanah or Kol Koreh (call it whatever would have the greatest impact) among all the frumme yidden in BP and WB and emphasize that anyone relying upon a shabbos elevator risks his/her chelek in olam haboh. Within a few days, there will be hundreds of beautiful apartments and condos on the upper floors of the finest buildings in Brooklyn available for sale and rent and bargain prices.

    Not my rabbis
    Not my rabbis
    14 years ago

    @6, if we have to ‘get their ears’ and then we can get the psakim we want, then who cares about what they say since its ovviously all biased or grossly underinformed?!

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    14 years ago

    It’s not clear what they’re talking about. If it’s a normal elevator that’s been programmed to stop at every floor, then there is no question that this is forbidden and always has been, and R Rosen would certainly agree. But if they’re talking about elevators built to the designs put out by R Rosen or by R Halperin, then how can technological changes have affected them? The comment that “one should not rely on any institute, etc. that permits them, because the matter touches on a serious prohibition of real chilul shabbos” is downright bizarre; do they think the institutes don’t know that?! I don’t see how one can put any stock in such a statement, no matter who is alleged to have signed on to it.

    Reb Moshe zt"l
    Reb Moshe zt"l
    14 years ago

    Reb Moshe held that there was nothing wrong with going up, only going down where your weight is helping to move the elevator. He had no concern aboult making the elevator use more electricity, only that the amount of electricity of the elevator alone can move it – which is not the case in going down. The Chazon Ish was makpid not to cause more electricity as well. The bnei Brakers are probably makpid on the Chazon Ish.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Every yid is free to follow or ignore any rebbe’s psak unless they recongize that rebbe as their posek. Eliyashiv, Wosner,Kanievsky and Karelitz don’t have a big following in the U.S. and Rav Rozen, Shlita, probably knows more about this subject and the potential for it being mechalel shabbos than all the Chareidi rabbonim combined.

    SIYATA DISHMAYA
    SIYATA DISHMAYA
    14 years ago

    Rabossai. Please remember it is right after Yom Kippur. You may feel that the Heiliga Rabonim have only heard one side but you HAVE to remember that they have siyata dishmaya in making the correct p’sak. The one thing that you cannot do is chas v’shalom put these Rabonim down. They are more chashuv then you will ever be and remember they require and are entitled to 100% respect. To say that people “have their ears” is total chtzpah and everyone should first start learning some mussar seforim before writing on these pages. K’siva V’chasima Tova to all.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Some of the rabbis who signed this opinion are the same one who have problems with the parking lot in Yerushalayim. Presumably, they will divert some of the chareidi bochurim from their demonstrations at the parking lot to throw rocks and dirty diapers at all the tourists at even the most frumme hotels in yerushalayim and Tel Aviv, all of which have these shabbos elevators.

    shabos
    shabos
    14 years ago

    we are lucky that the internet was not around when Chazal made all the “GZEROS” because the blogs would make fun of all of them. If you want to be a TZIDOKI you don”t have to listen to the rabonim.

    WolfishMusings
    WolfishMusings
    14 years ago

    Hmmm…

    “You may feel that the Heiliga Rabonim have only heard one side but you HAVE to remember that they have siyata dishmaya in making the correct p’sak.”

    Does that mean that a p’sak is always right, even if it is based on incorrect facts? Somehow I don’t think that’s the case.

    “The one thing that you cannot do is chas v’shalom put these Rabonim down”

    Agreed. Any disagreement or dissent must be done in a respectful manner.

    “They are more chashuv then you will ever be”

    How do you know this? Perhaps one of the young people reading this today is destined to be greater than the present day rabbanim? Perhaps even Moshiach? Don’t place limits on people you’ve never even met.

    The Wolf

    Future Jew
    Future Jew
    14 years ago

    The issur of electricity has historically been problematic.It therefore would be helpful and avoid the zilzul of talmedei chachomim ,if instead of issuing a psak via kol korah, pashkivillim, etc the psak should be in the form of a shu”t.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The rabanim NEVER said what is being reported here and its all lies. I just got off the phone with one of the few rabanim and they said they never said what is quoted. Here we go again with the stupidity. This is like the lipa announcementsd all over again with fake signatures.

    Secondly, anything not recorded or video taped when making such a psak that effects millions of frum people should not be belived. I am sick and tired of hearing everyone say “they heard rav so and so saying…. And then finding out later it was all lies. Vinnews should please make a retraction instead of putting out the lies in the name of holy gedolim and rabanim.

    NoMoreChumrahs
    NoMoreChumrahs
    14 years ago

    When will it end? When will Rabbis stop making up new chumrahs every week. This religion is getting further and further away from normalcy every week. I am waiting for the first Rabbi to come out and say that women should not hold jobs and should wear burkas.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    What about wheelchairs? If yu cant get there w/o a wheelchair should you stay home? I see plenty of ehrliche alte yidden being pushed to shul. C’mon folks.

    not Again
    not Again
    14 years ago

    Media reports are that Rav Elyashiv never signed and did not give permission to have his signature afficed to this letter.

    Charlie Hall
    Charlie Hall
    14 years ago

    Rov Soloveitchik matired having a non-Jew call a regular elevator for a Jew. One of his talmidim in my neighborhood tells people not to try to get their apartment buildings to install Shabat elevators because of the incovenience it causes to non-Jews and to not-yet-observant Jews, but to follow The Rov on this.

    Last Shabat I walked up to the 16th floor of a highrise for Shabat lunch. I am grateful to HaShem that I still have the health to do this.

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    14 years ago

    Read carefully what RYSE wrote: he is talking about ordinary elevators on Shabbos, not about Shabbos elevators! Attaching his words to this advertisement was a deliberate hoax.

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    14 years ago

    In any case, the true gedolim in this area are R Halperin and R Rosen. Any psak that was made without consulting them is completely void.

    A concerned Rabbi
    A concerned Rabbi
    14 years ago

    Examine the wording of Rav Elyashav, and you may see that this has the markings of another ‘fradulent proclamation by the Gedolim scandal’ similar to last year’s ‘Lipa gedolim signature scandle’ .
    Someone just pasted Rav Elyashav’s words next to the other proclamation to make it sound like he is issuing the same blanket issur along with the other rabbonim. Yet Rav Elyashav never mentioned the institute, nor did he say that it is ‘ossur’.
    In fact, Rav Elyashav’s words that we should not use elevators on shabbos can be taken as a general statement to agree with what many many people already do, following the previous gedolim who said we should not use elevators on shabbos, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a choleh, etc:

    PMO
    PMO
    14 years ago

    We all know it is “better” to be machmir and avoid the shabbos elevators if we can. However, it is not always possible. What do you tell someone who lives on the 20th floor? Do you tell him he should just not leave his home on shabbos… ever? Do you say the same to every person in a wheelchair? There are many different circumstances that can affect the opinion given.

    You can find 100 poskim with 100 different opinions that are mostly based on individual circumstances. As always, the best thing to do if you require the use of a shabbos elevator is to consult a rav with your particular situation.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The story is told about two ehrleche yidden from eretz yisroel making their first trip to America who boarded an elevator in and older building in BP. The elevator operator – who was Israeli and recognized two landsmen by their Hebrew accents immediately inquired — “Yordim???”

    Stunned at hearing the Hebrew words and fearing that they were being confused as being among the new wave of Isreael emigrants taking up positions as NY cabdrivers, they quickly responded to the assumed insults in Hebrew with “No! No! we’re only here as tourists!”

    Aryeh
    Aryeh
    14 years ago

    When someone issues a Psak, it is for their talmidim only. If any of the posters here are affected by the ban, they should take the issue up with their Rav and not voice dissent in public. Everyone else has a right to their opinion, but should not criticize others for their rulings.

    sg
    sg
    14 years ago

    gee, it turns out after some research, this whole story is false. R’ Elyashiv never said shabbos elevators were assur. It is simply some macher taking something RE said and twisting it to fit their new needs for chumras.

    Had enough
    Had enough
    14 years ago

    I want eidim signing on any of the new bans that come out, I don believe them till we have two eidim and it was written before us and signed before us and a whole gantzeh shpiel. Until then I am not following anything.

    Norman
    Norman
    14 years ago

    read carefully what Rav Eliyashiv wrote. read carefully, he assers using an elevator on shabbes. no one disagrees !! Rav Elyashiv did not sign like other rabonnim, he added a comment at the bottom and signed that comment. So even if everything in the document is “kosher” Rav Elyashiv does not discuss shabbes elevator

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    what will be now with all the people that told me why r u wearing crocs when it was assured. what will they do with all their condos all along collins ave. in miami beach. do i hear a good sale let me know! put ur $$$ where ur mouth is ! if $30 crocs r no good then sell your condos now!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This is only the most recent episode where Eliyashiv (or some other rabbonim acting on his behalf) are implicated in first issuing or endorsing a really stupid psak and then backtracking once it becomes obvious that they will be ignored

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    To make treif does not require genius, To make a shayla is no big trick!
    The chachma is to truly understand the issue at hand and then paskin accordingly.
    To excuse the Rabbis by saying someone whispered incorrect information in their ears and misled them is quite pathetic. A real Rav is not supposed to be swayed by whispers!! His job before he dares pasken (and especially paskening as treif) is to thoroughly and totally investigate the matter at hand before he takes such a severe step – especially considerting how many people have used this technology and continue to do so. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to understand the importance of being thorough in such an instance.

    starwolf
    starwolf
    14 years ago

    There are 2 problems with this kind of psak.

    The first is the method of publishing it. Anyone can publish a pahkevil, and there is no way of authenticating it. We have seen a number of false quotations of Rabbanim in the past. The Poskim need to find a way other than word-of-mout to publish their psakim.

    The second problem is the habit of not publishing the reasoning behind the psak. What has changed in the design of Shabbat elevators since they were permitted? Rabbinical rulings are based on reasoning, and the reasoning behind them should be published, so that all of Am Yisrael can understand. That is the reason that we learn to begin with.

    torahyid
    torahyid
    14 years ago

    A must read article on bchadrei chareidim website. I present here a translation:
    R’LY Halperin, head of technological Institute for Halocho, says in conversation with bchadrei chareidim site, “I wrote a sefer on the subject, whoever wants may go and learn the subject in depth. Shabbos lifts are permitted acc. to all gedoiley yisroel I have spoken to, and there is no change on the subject. “What, in any case happened? how did such a psak get out” “I heard that some engineer came to the homes of the gedoiley yisroel and explained to them that a shabbos lift causes chilul shabbos. it seems the engineer does not know what he is talking about. I know of hundreds of engineers that do not have the slightest idea on the subjects they talk about. On this basis they brought out a psak. When I learnt the subject I had to find reasons why it should be ossur, not why it should be muttar. “R’Elyashiv is also signed on the notice, he relied on an amateur engineer?” “If one takes note of the words of R’Elyashiv in the notice, one will see that he did not write one word against shabbos elevators, RE emphasizes “in regard to elevators on shabbos, my opinion is not to use, not for a ascent or descent” elevators on shabbos, not “shabbos elevators”, I also hold that it is ossur to use elevators on shabbos, I heard from people from his house that he did not want to sign on the psak, and after pressure wrote the nussach that avoids the issue. “lmaaseh is it muttar to continue to use an elevator?” “as long as I do not hear of new elevators that cause chilul shabbos the psak has not changed.”
    (IMHO I have another hao’orah on the issue, I am wondering that al hatzad it is muttar maybe to be machmir is wrong as this causes unnecessary tircha on shabbos (shlo lehalocho as I am not qualified on the issue)).

    Frumme Jid
    Frumme Jid
    14 years ago

    I hope this Psak from Rav Eliyashuv doesn’t end up being looked at, the same way as his ‘Psak’ on the Human Hair from India……..
    Ve’Hamaiyven Yovin
    If Rav Rosen can really explain his Heterim, so why isn’t he listened to?

    Frumme Jid
    Frumme Jid
    14 years ago

    What I really don’t understand is, why Rav Vosner should sign on such a Issur, without first listening to Rav Rosen???????

    5T Resident
    5T Resident
    14 years ago

    Listen, I’m a big Am Ha’aretz, I admit. But I know this.

    I have a 15 year old niece who was born with CP and must use a walker. She absolutely cannot climb stairs – she would fall over. This past summer, my entire family went to Eretz Yisroel for most of July and August. We rented apartments in Yerushalayim that had Shabbos elevators. My niece’s apartment was on the third floor. If she couldn’t use the Shabbos elevator, she could never leave her apartment on Shabbos and could not go to shul. Would these Rabbonim say that she should stay home and not go to shul “a bi” she didn’t use the Shabbos elevator? Where is the compassion for the less fortunate and those born handicapped???

    shimon taylor
    shimon taylor
    14 years ago

    I think it should be quite obvious that only those who verified all the technology would be those who argue as to what Halocho says about it, and thereby come to a p’sak. I also assume that they write it somewhere or speak it with clear reasoning from all ts’dodim.
    If I hear that this was never done, then I’m reluctant to believe that such big rabonim paskened for the large public, without explaining.

    formally
    formally
    14 years ago

    what new technical, advances have made shobbos elevators assur. They should give a reason and maybe someone can come up with a work around.

    Sometimes exeptions are made one is not permitted to bring an animal in shul but in the gemarah it says in certain circumstance one is permitted. Just like some poskim say that one can bring in a seeing eye dog to shul