New York – Undermining the Talmud Bavli By Arguing The Halacha For Lulav On Shabbos

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    New York – Sometimes the worldviews of sociologists and religious leaders are miles and miles apart. Where a sociologist would cheer, a Torah leader would shed tears.Example: A sociologist would be overjoyed in seeing the birth of a new religious or schismatic movement. A Rabbi would be deeply saddened at the loss.

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    First century (letaaricham) Jerusalem would have been a prime example. Mecca and Medina in the 7th century when Islam was born is another example. Hamburg, Germany in the late 1700’s was where Reform Jewry was born. Haskalah, throughout Europe, in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century, was another such treasure trove. The turn of the twentieth century in the United States was when the conservative movement was born.
    Sociologists would love to observe these schismatic movements in their nascent form.

    Religious leaders, on the other hand, shed numerous tears. Why? The “what if?’s” of course. Imagine if all the major maskilim, reform and conservative Jews would have used their creative minds and talents in Torah instead of the schismatic movements and their theologies. The world would be a different place, surely.

    This same duality exists in the latest manifestation of schismatic movements as well.

    For some reason there is a new movement that tries to do away with the logic and authority of the Talmud Bavli and grasp on to minhagim of our people’s past that once existed and give rise to them again. It seems that every Yom Tov we find people adopting practices that normative Judaism no longer practices.

    The latest case in point is an article published by Yediot Ahronot and posted by VIN News about taking the Lulav on the first day of Yom Tov when it falls on Shabbos. According to the Bavli (Sukkah 43b), Shulchan Aruch, Mishna Brura and an entire cadre of Rishonim and Achronim the move is utterly ridiculous.

    Chazal specifically wanted the halacha as practiced in Eretz Yisroel to be exactly like that practiced in Chutz LaAretz. Nonetheless, there is a persistence on the part of some people to move forward and carry the Lulav on Shabbos.

    To quote the article posted on VIN News:
    This year I will add another mitzvah to that list: taking the lulav on Shabbat. Although I will take the lulav in my sukka, before I go to synagogue, I pray for the day when all of the people of Israel will be ready to fulfil the mitzvah of lulav on Shabbat..

    The question is what are the sociological factors that have led to this attempt to unshackle themselves from the guidance and authority of the Bavli?

    It would seem that it is a combination of a number of factors. Firstly, the rise in Israeli nationalism is a contributing factor – people wish to display new fervor in the fact that we have a Jewish state under Jewish auspices. At the same time they wish to move beyond the areas in which the chief rabbinate have moved in regard to anything remotely having a nationalistic theme.

    Another factor is the idea that there is a resentment in the fact that expertise and leadership in halacha is now relegated to a limited circle. In the secular world, a lawyer can argue a case and influence the world in case law. Later they can make changes in normative legal practice as judges. Not so in halacha. There is a growing sense of frustration among these people and they need a venue of expression.

    Finally, the third factor may be a certain sense of haughtiness. It takes guts to take on established authoritiy. It takes sheer haughtiness however to disagree with Rashi. Rashi tells us (Sukkah 44a) that Chazal felt that in order to keep Jewish Achdus chazal changed the halacha for Eretz Yisroel and made them conform to our halachos of not using the Lulav on Shabbos. The concern, according to Rashi, Achdus – Jewish unity.

    Imagine if we in the golus and those Jews in Israel had different Yamim Tovim. It would lead to a dismemberment of the Jewish world. A catastrophic scenario the implications of which Chazak were quire aware.

    So please, out there, let’s cut the garbage, and give the Talmud Bavli the respect it deserves.

    The author can be reached at [email protected]


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    42 Comments
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    OJoe
    OJoe
    14 years ago

    Decent article overall, but he writes “Imagine if we in the golus and those Jews in Israel had different Yamim Tovim”

    We do. Its called Yom Tov sheni.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    well written

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    We are making too much of a broigas over somthing as trivial as whether or not to bench lulav and esrog in the privacy of one’s sukkah next shabbos. There is a lot more these rabbonim and baalabtim can do for achdus in klal yisroel than elevating this to a significance beyond what it deserves.

    Chaim S.
    Chaim S.
    14 years ago

    Kol hamoidif goreah. I really know that Chazal knew exactly what they were doing when they said no lulav and no shofar on shabbos. The act of denying the authority of chazal by saying I’ll be frummer than chazal and I will take a lulav brings with it the possibility of denying other rabbinical rules. After all I am rationalizing my acts by saying they really don’t know.

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    14 years ago

    The Rambam in his introduction to Mishneh Torah writes that the beis din of Ravina and Rav Ashi was the last beis din to be acceptable by all of klal yisroel, and that is why their psak is authorative and binding. R. Chaim Brisker explained that the Rambam means that any such beis din (accepted by all of klal yisroel) has the status of the beis din ha gadol — and their psak accordingly must be followed under the possuk of lo sassur. That is what is meant by Ravina and Rav Ashi sof horaa.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    there have been many new movements that have been accepted. chassidus, the mussar movement, charedism…

    totally out of context
    totally out of context
    14 years ago

    ok, i know this is totally out of context, but maybe someone can help me!!!! my esrog is green and i really want to ripen it/ turn it yellow. i did the apple in a drawer thingy but it didnt’ really help. any help? (sorry for this random post… but kudn’t find anywhere with the answer…….)

    Charlie Hall
    Charlie Hall
    14 years ago

    While I totally agree that we should not take the lulav on Shabat, halachah isn’t quite so simple as following the last decision in the Bavli. There exist situations in which normative practice is contrary to definitive opinions stated there. We need to do a better job of explaining them.

    Shtus
    Shtus
    14 years ago

    This year, I am going to schect my korban pesach in the sukkah on shabbos, waive my arba minim over it and blow a shofar after bentching shehakol on the rice and kitnyos while wearing my techelis tzisis on a linen talis, but only after kissing the silkscreened mezuza. Following the afikoman, we are serving peacock heads in cream sauce. All are invited. The ladies will be given aylias to the Torah only if they wear tefilin and make the berachas two at a time in unison.

    YOSSIE
    YOSSIE
    14 years ago

    i fail to understand the hangup about these people wanting to bentch lulav on shabbos
    what is driving these people
    i really dont thimk its the extreme love for the mitzvah but more to show that eretz yisroel today is the same as in the time of the bais hamikdash
    this is very dangerous
    and to deviate from halach even one iota is bordering on being a ciofer
    these people need to get a life

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    “It would seem that it is a combination of a number of factors. Firstly, the rise in Israeli nationalism is a contributing factor – people wish to display new fervor in the fact that we have a Jewish state under Jewish auspices. At the same time they wish to move beyond the areas in which the chief rabbinate have moved in regard to anything remotely having a nationalistic theme.” As a firm AntiZionist Yid I find this to be further evidence that Zionism is NOT Judaism and if anything fosters an environment for apikorsim to thrive! A Jew becomes Israeli first and Jew second! They no longer know their right hand from their left!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Radical Swings in Halacha are not only the purview of sociologists.

    Not many years ago the water was “safe” to drink in New York as it had been for 300 years and in the rest of the world bere filtration since Adam.

    Until this week Shabbos Elevators had been in wide spread use for decades

    Authentic Londoner
    Authentic Londoner
    14 years ago

    The Vilna Gaon also had strong views on what was and what was not Yiddishkeit

    me
    me
    14 years ago

    So if we are against radical changes, should a visitor to EY now hold only one day of Yom Tov, and should a resident of EY only hold one day of Rosh Hashanah, since they are both of “modern” innovation?

    esther
    esther
    14 years ago

    it seems to me that this is a misguided case of wanting to be more frum then the rest-it says in chasidus that sometimes the yaitzer hara comes dressed up in a bekeshe and black hat.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Spot on !If in the past the challenge was from reform disputing torah,now the yetzer hora has enclothed himself in the subtle form of “lets go back to the original way it was,”this is a case of corrupt secular zionism clothing itself in torah,the rabbanim must do something about this!!

    Shimshon
    Shimshon
    14 years ago

    I find it intereresting that those anonymous posters who choose to disagree the premise by quoting “halacha,” obviously know nothing about the halachot of Ona’at Devarim, Lashon Hara or Motzi Shem Rah. Rav David Bar-Hayim gave the psak and he is a true talmid chacham. Have you even studied the Yerushalmi and Bavli or are you relying on the Artscroll English? It is a shame that you all have chosen to remain in Egypt to eat leeks, cucumbers and fish rather than accept the gift that HaShem has bestowed upon His people.

    Moshe
    Moshe
    14 years ago

    Rav David Bar-Hayim is a monumental Torah scholar who happens to want us to be loyal to hazal. His Torah is the logical conclusion of Rav Kook who said that as we return to Eretz Yisrael we will return to the Talmud Yerushalmi. Also, do note that Rav Bar-Hayim has the utmost repsect for Rishonim and most of the time he paskens like the Rambam

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The Gemara in the Bavli that deals with this issue makes the claim that those in Eretz Yisrael must do as the Jews of Bavel and not wave lulav on Shabbath-Rav Bar-Hayim points out that this Gemara reverses the Gemara’s previous position and tells us that this is for historic reasons related to the rivalry between Bavel and Eretz Yisrael.

    Rav Bar-Hayim incisively points out that if it were true that the Gemara’s position here is truly to prevent lack of uniformity between the practices of Bavel and Eretz Yisrael then why is it that there is Yom Tov Sheni? Why are there two sedarim? Clearly, the Bavli chachamim wanted Eretz Yisrael to “toe the line” since they felt that their Torah must dominate since they were the predominant Torah community.

    Nowadays, as of recent decades the Torah world’s focus has shifted to Eretz Yisrael. Thus, even according to the Bavli’s logic we should now be shifting to the Talmud Yerushalmi.

    Jimmy37
    Jimmy37
    14 years ago

    Achdus? That’s why Sholosh Regalim are celebrated with 2 days in Chutz Laaretz, and one day in Israel, even though we know, without question, when the lunar month beginnings.