New York – What is one supposed to do when a respected rabbi makes a pronouncement that is disconnected from logic and reality? Is he supposed to convince himself that he doesn’t know better, can’t possibly know better? Is he supposed to keep quiet, lest the thought police bludgeon his dissent? Should he risk bringing serious social retribution upon his family for challenging the cozy illusions many have about their leaders and their society?
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What if it is not one rabbi making this wayward pronouncement but 60?
That is what happened earlier this month with a letter signed by 60 prominent rabbis. see here the letter PDF.
Editors note: VIN News was not able to verify the validity of this Letter, as in the past, many of those so called Kol Kories have turned out to be either fabricated, or signed signatures with no verifications.
“It has recently been revealed [by whom, Elijah the prophet?] that the primary cause of the [shidduch crisis] is that boys frequently prefer girls who are a few years younger… Since every year our population grows, the result is that there are always more girls in need of a shidduch than there are available boys.”
The letter strongly urges shadhanim [matchmakers] to push shidduchim[matches] in which there is a minimal age gap between the boy and girl, or for the girl to be older.
For years we were told that there is no crisis in the “frum world,” only in the “modern world.” Then a crisis was grudgingly acknowledged but blamed on scapegoats like television, movies and the Internet, implying that good Jews who avoided these contaminants faced no crisis. Then we were told the problem was simply that singles are too picky, or that some girls are not “cut out” for the holy kollel lifestyle, or that we should learn from the arranged marriages of the hassidic world, where everything is always swell.
But no. It has finally been revealed that the heart of the problem is a shortage of eligible men and too wide an age gap in shidduchim. All those other issues I’ve been writing about for seven years? Mere spilled ink it seems. I’m a little embarrassed.
THE PROPOSED solution of these signatories is even more bizarre than their determination of the problem. For one thing, it is self-contradictory. The problem assumes that more girls are being born than boys, thus exacerbating the gender disparity over time. But the proposed solution – manipulate men to marry older women – is predicated on the assumption that if we can only buy some time things will even out. In other words, the incoming crop of singles will have more men than women. Wrap your head around that.
It gets worse. This fancy cocktail of demography, sociology, mathematics and mythology is really nothing more than a Ponzi scheme. Let’s assume that there really are far more eligible women than men. And let’s assume we can manipulate the men to marry the oldest women in the pool. What will happen to all the younger women who remain? They will simply age and become older singles. What problem exactly have we solved here?
There are a finite number of men and a finite number of women, and each shidduch takes one of each out of the group. You can play with the numbers all you want, but you can’t escape that simple fact. More men will not magically appear if we manipulate who marries whom and try to buy some time. Did Bernie Madoff come up with this idea?
Just as the thought police will rant that I should have more faith in these rabbis, I will counter that these rabbis should have more faith in the sages and God. After all, the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so. In other words, God created a soul mate for everyone.
Do they deny the veracity of this teaching? Are these rabbis “modern” and believe it is no longer relevant? Has God decided to take a sabbatical for a generation or two and stop keeping track of things? They tread on dangerous ground with this proclamation, far more dangerous than mine in calling them on it.
According to these rabbis, or whoever wrote this letter for them, if I see a successful, beautiful, happily married couple with more than a few years between them, I should shake my head and wish we could do it over again. After all, their shidduch exacerbates a demographic problem. If I have the opportunity to introduce a man and woman who seem absolutely perfect for one another, I should first see if I can find an older woman for that man. There should even be a financial incentive for me to do so.
In essence, their recommendation is not that we arrange dates based entirely and exclusively on considerations of marital compatibility. We should give strong preference to an artificial consideration based on a presumed demographic problem. Don’t suggest the most suitable shidduch for that man; suggest a somewhat reasonable shidduch within a narrow age range. That’s the most important thing. We’re not trying to build the happiest and most stable Jewish families, but to play a numbers game. Right?
NO MATTER how you look at it, this pronouncement is nothing more than science fiction, and whether 60 rabbis or 6,000 rabbis sign it doesn’t make it any more intelligent. Balaam’s donkey said some wise words, and the fact that they came from a donkey didn’t change that. These rabbis have attached their names to some foolish words, and their rabbinic title doesn’t change that either. We need to acknowledge that and soundly reject their recommendation, which would solve no problems and only create new ones, all while distracting our community from the real issues.
This is not a matter of Torah scholarship or interpretation of a traditional text, but one of plain facts and basic reason. Rabbinic titles do not trump facts and reason. A rabbi can tell us if the chicken is kosher or treif. A rabbi cannot tell us that the chicken is really an ostrich.
A true Torah scholar is well aware of a communal crisis early on, even anticipates the crisis. A true Torah scholar is intelligent and informed about the real issues, is proactive in developing truly meaningful and effective responses that address the heart of the problem, and is not afraid of what some members of the community will think of them.
A true Torah scholar does not follow, but leads, and leads well – not off the cliff.
Those who signed this letter have essentially advertised their ignorance of these critical issues and have recklessly urged a harmful course of action. Shame on them and shame on those responsible for this letter.
The writer is the founder of End the Madness (www.endthemadness.org), a volunteer effort to rehabilitate the culture of the shidduch world.
[email protected]
The younger girls in the pool will get married to boys their own age…they won’t become older singles…
Speaking from experience as a single girl, it is extremely difficult to get a date with tzugepaste boy, and I commend the NASI program and the rabbanim for working on this issue
Afilu Omrim Al Yemin Shehu Smol……
BTW this guy’s solution to the shidduch crisis is to have mixed singles events.
The shidduch crisis is due to one factor and one factor alone: the corruption of the minds of our youth.
1. The unrealistic expectations that serve as population control among the goyim have seeped into our communities via television, internet and even billboards and music and polluted the minds of our children.
2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R”LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.
3. We must first learn to guard our own eyes, hearts and mouths before we can expect our children to have enough sensitivity to be able to marry their zivug, and not treat their first shidduch date as a preparation for a career of coffee and dinners well into their 30’s G-d forbid.
4. Keep your children in Boro Park, and stop letting them move to the Upper West Side. Teach them a trade locally, and don’t send them to University in Harlem.
…Written with an agenda and a very weak understanding of the details and of mathematical statistics. The truth is that if men marry older women they WILL cut down the disparity between the number of eligible young men and women.
As usual, we witness these public proclamations (whose veracity is questionable) that are knee jerk reactions to problems (which may not be attributable to anything or anyone and may not be community problems). It would be nice if these were subjected to good analysis before resulting in Kol Koreys, bans, or proclamations. I am personally acquainted with many singles of varying ages. Is this a crisis? It certainly is for each of them, but then someone with an illness is also in crisis. Why is it the community’s issue if I am sick? How will such public statements help?
Obviously this writer failed in math! He seems to be missing the basic concept. This has little to do with the fact that there are more female then men! It is simply that we have 4 years of boys who are not in Shiduchim, while their female counterparts are. Imagine that all boys that are now 18 will get into shiduchim? We will have potentially 1000’s of shiduchim. The next year will not lose, as the same amount of both boys & girls will enter the scene. With the growing population, the disportion gets larger & larger.
This is no Ponzi but simple math, but the simple man who knows no math, likes to make noise.
Actually the chasidishe world has an opposite problem more available boys than girls. My theorý is that many girls from chasidishe families prefer litvish boys. Every chasidishe girl that marries a litvish boy creates a problem for chasidishe boys and litvishe girls. I am wondering if anybody agrees.
I would think that the author of this article would have a very high regard for math and science. While he attempts to frame the “letter” as a weak attempt by Rabbonim, the fact is that there is substantial science that led to the conclusion that age differences are an important factor contributing to the current difficulties with shidduchim. Rather than refuting the science, he pulls the scientific equivalent of Godwin’s law and calls the math a Madoff-inspired Ponzi scheme.
Talk about disconnected from reality.
The real crisis is the growing void in real torah leadership within klal yisroel and so called “gadolim” or their gaaboim (especially in the case of geriatric gadolim who seem to be suffering form the aging process) who issue these psak, kol korehs etc. that are detached from torah and reality. The effect of each one of these stupid issuances is to further distance most yidden from reliance on these rabbonim for guidance on how to live their lives and a return to a more personal relationship with local rabbonim and poseks who may lack the reputation but provide the needed guidance to be shomrei torah umitzvot.
The 60 rabbis, whether real or imaginary, have their arithmetic right, and Weissman has it wrong. This is pretty elementary stuff. In a population that is increasing, each age cohort is bigger than the one before it. KAH there were more children born in 1990 than in 1985, and therefore there were more girls born in 1990 than boys in 1985. And so long as our fertility continues BEH, this trend will also continue indefinitely; there will be more girls born in 2015 than boys in 2010. (Each cohort starts out with slightly more boys than girls, but by the time it reaches shidduch age this gap has disappeared.)
The bigger the average age gap between husbands and wives, the more girls will be left on the shelf. In polygamous societies the typical age gap is particularly pronounced, thus producing enough available girls for older men to take a second wife.
This viewpoint is so utterly simplistic it’d be laugable if it weren’t so tragic. Nobody wants to “manipulate” boys to marry girls. The idea is to breakdown the perception that a 3 year age gap is the norm. If it weren’t taboo to marry an older or same age girl, if people would stop wondering what’s wrong with a guy who does that, then maybe, perhaps, older girls would find more a greater pool available to them.
Why do we give this clown any publicity. As anyone who has followed his agenda knows, he has no clue what the problems are with the system and his solution is to get rid of the system and just have singles events.
I belive that this article has more to do with socialpolitics then with sceintific and hard facts on this subject.
Went to his site & read his covenant. BTW a covenant is a shvuah, luckily a digital signature is not a halachic binding, so I guess signing it doesn’t incriminate you.
He obviously hasn’t learned Shulchan Aruch & is unaware that a Pogum isn’t a lechatchila Shiduch, and requires you sign that there is no difference.
He seems to have the ego taht he has the solution, more than all others,again I don’t see his solution.
I guess that gives him freedom to disregard any Rabonim, if he disregards Shulchan Aruch too. [maybe out of ignorance].
He disregards Ashrei mi sheishto meiiro, of course similar backgrounds make sounder shiduchim.
This is Gezera min Hashamayim, there is no simple aitzo, I know from within.
I have also felt like setting up a forum with Private messaging & letting all advertise & intercat themselves under allaiases, posting there Taavos & imagination, & where they are up to & what they want. Do you think that would help? Of course not, they will never fulfill their desires, no one dies fulfilling even half their taavos. [Chazal] Most of the taavos are from boredom & lonliness,[which will cure with marriage] such a forum, could do more harm than good,searching surfing & messaging to pass time & get no where.
I also don’t agree with dating to find out info.
The whole dating is not a Yiddishe derech, nor 100% goyish where they live together first. The parents [when disfunctional thee Rabonim & teachers askonim & neighbours] should do Due dillegence, & then meeting should only be for clarity, like it used to be.
Sending a bochur of 40+ on a sixty mile trip to meet an older girl who hasn’t made any inquiries about him, not even one phone call, who at one look at his face says no, yet he has to travel another 20 miles plus & spend anothe $… to take her out to hear NO NO H..LL NO is so wrong, & takes away strength & resource for the right time.
Older girls should be required to take out the men, when they see the stress & pain, the wasteful dating will hopefuly stop.
You can not have a set of rules obviously when the system has failed you try another system.
Some phone dating B4 older people meet should be standard, A little emuna & bitachon & risk may help too.
Another big problem is unsolicted advise, don’t give advise if you are not asked to, you only cause harm, iif you don’t have a situation you don’t understand it.
Someone throwing any shidduch at another also causes damage BL”N I will make another post on that this is too long already.
First and most import is that yiddin should not be relying on shiduchim for finding their soulmates and future spouse. There are many opportunities today for boys and girls to meet in healthy and halachicly appropriate settings so that they can get to know one another directly rather than paying some yenta to do a shidduch where the schadchan is being told to fix the “age gap” and other nareshkeit.
This anonymous coward that wrote this letter slandering the biggest gedolei torah the world has today, should do his research before bringing down the entire moetzes. You obviosly have never had an older girl in the parsha as can be seen from your lack of sensitivity towards people who are unimaginably hurting. You bring the concept of basherte and bas kol yotze vomeres bas ploni lploni to validate you, but the gemarah also speaks very strongly about the idea of “chapping” a woman before someone else ‘Shema ykadmenu acher” we see that although everything is basherte the is still a very strong concept of Hishtadlus. Yes, there definitly is a crisis, NASI Program led by Moshe P. has done extensive research in the field, speaking to mathmeticians all across the US, and they have all pointed to this theory. You are right chassidim dont have a crisis because many times boys are marrying girls older than them. The person obviously has a lot of built up rage against gedolim, but please not at the expense of our suffering older singles
The author in trying to bash rabonim missed the boat big time. Assuming there are an equal number of boys and girls born each year. However the population expands B”H each year. That means more children will be born in (both boys and girls)2013 than in 2009. Now if the boys born in 2009 marry the girls from 2013 we are left with the increased # of girls without a match. As far as to the Bas kol he quotes from the Gemara in Sotah it does not mean you don’t have to make an hishtadlus. It is a fact that in the chassidisher world (except for Gerrer Bochurim) there is less of a problem being that they marry closer in age. Gerrer Bochurim do have a harder time finding a shidduch, simply because they have very strict rules regarding Kedusha Vthara after the wedding. I hope this clarifies matters and realy I was wondering the same thing the author asks in the beginning of his article. What is one supposed to do when a respected WRITER writes an article disconnected from logic etc.
“… the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so…”
This is also a “reiyeh” that the boys marry YOUNGER GIRLS! because there is a simple question. why does it say “the daughter of so etc ” will marry etc…” why not at the birth of a boy the bas kol goes out and says ” these boy will marry that girl”?
Answer: Because in MOST CASES WHEN THE BOY IS BORN THE GIRL IS NOT YET LIVE!”
So now these Rabbonim are arguing with an open gemorah!
This must be false!!!
Shidduch Crisis???
Mental health crisis, maybe!
Internet, TV, Billboards, Movies, Magazines, Newspapers, Kittens, Tuna Sandwiches… everybody’s an expert. But nobody says it like it is. Enter me.
We are a generation of ba’alei ga’ava the likes of which never existed. We seem to consider ourselves royalty in general, especially when it comes to shidduchim. We look for mates for ourselves as if shopping for esrogim. Only the best best for me. No imperfection. After all, I don’t care if there’s a soulmate for me out there who’ll take care of me when I’m down, forgive my stupid moves, support my decisions no matter what, be a self-sacrificing parent to the children I plan on having, etc. He/she’s imperfect.
The imperfections: He was a nerd in High school (adults still say that). His brother married a girl who’s sister wears pants. She has a high collarbone (yup, heard that one too). Her grandparents don’t have money. He davens in a shul that I never heard of. He went to the wrong yeshiva. She had a sick brother. He doesn’t want to live in Borough Park (that “bad catch” was yours truly). Everybody knows him. Nobody knows him. Her father makes too little money. Her father makes too much money (I swear). She wants to live in Etzissrohl and I want to live in Lakewood for a year. My son (I) would never consider Brooklyn girls.
Another problem with forcefully forcing shidduchim. Chas Veshalom I don’t mean to humiliate demean any yiddishe girl or boy this is all high pathetical.
EG Mrs. A calls Bochur A; Sunday night with a shidduch, “I have found your bashertee such a nice etc…
He starts calling.”did you know her parents are divorced she was ill as a child & has 2 broken engagements, she also has a reading disability & poor social skills etc.
Obviously quite offended he calls is polite.
Next week again you get the picture, he becomes a little less polite this goes on a while. The bochur feels humiliated & wonders wow am I so bad? he calls his family & freinds & begins to lose self confidence, and starts needing reassurance.
Now he is convinced this lady has no idea who he is & thinks very little of him, but just being a name pusher she actually finds a good one & calls again with all force, by now the bochur practically turns it down over the phone, he takes the abuse & she yells at him that he isn’t interested in getting married Blah blah blah.
A few months later a good freind calls with that good shiduch, after hearing it from the horses mouth, convinced that she has such a low opinion of him he gets offended & is polite abnd turns it down. It may take 10 years until they meet, or he may never.
Thank you stupid name pushing forceful shadachan, look at your damage!!!.
I know a very good name pusher shadchan, but she has the meschlechkeit to say I am a name pusher & hakodosh Boruch Hu is the shadchan, she doesn’t force you, & appologizes if you refuse,she admits I don’t really know her it is just a name.
A little more thought could save a lot of damage the roads to Hellare paved with good intentions.
My friend was redd (redded?) a shidduch but he said no. I think he’s making a mistake, but hey, it’s his business. Why did he nix this fine shidduch? He remembers her great-great-nephew from yeshiva and he didn’t get along with him. Silly, no?
What happened to simple emunah, and bitachon. The color of stockings or whether we use paper or plastic or china on shabbos really isn’t a Lav/Mitzva in the Torah. It surely isn’t going to make a marriage happier or not.
We have become a generation that is so focused on external/chitzonius things to “show” frumkeit.
If people stopped focusing on external/chitzonius stuff, and started focusing on truly being “kedoshim tehiyu” as the Ribono shel Olom requests. Started focusing on their ahavas Hashem and ahavas reyim and all the things HASHEM – NOT PEOPLE – require, we might find that we have a lot more in common with a lot more yidden and maybe there would be a greater pool of people for everyone to date – it would eliminate a lot of the people that get ruled out because of silly things – like paper vs. plastic vs. china dishes.
We took to focus off Hashem and put it on silly things.
It seems like Mr. Madness got his degree in mathematics from Tuoro College. The fact is that the advise of the Rabbonim are based on demographic models that have been worked out by experts in the field and the logic is sound.
If a large proportion of the oilem would heed this advise it would clean up the current crop of older girls in a decade or so. Afterwards the matter will have to be restudied and perhaps boys will just be encouraged to marry younger to girls of thier own age.
Practically speaking though, only a small percentage of boys will heed this advise. It will help the situation a little bit, but the fact will be that most boys will still marry younger girls. Some girls will marry younger boys and that will help things even out a little thereby alleviating the problem, but not eliminate it.
The main issue that will not be solved by this solution is the simple fact that there are more ‘good’ girls than there are ‘good’ boys. This is true of any age group.
By chasidim this is not such a problem because the boys are so young when they marry, and the contact during dating is so limited that the girls don’t know the difference, or they set their standards low.
Historically, it was clearly considered normal for a husband to be older (sometimes significantly) than his wife. Just check the Torah! All of the Avos, for example…. In general, 12-13 was considered the normal age of marriage for a girl, while men were encouraged to marry by 18 (with 13 being “min hamuvchor” but clearly not the norm). However, eis la’asos La’shem – if there is a crisis, we need to solve it.
The writer seems to have his own personal agenda with the shidduch crisis and uses the public platform to express his frustration and bash the gedolim who are actually trying to help the situation with this sensible idea.
The crisis has nothing to do with age. It is the classic yetzer hara of entitlement, greed, desire, “keeping up with the schwartz’s”. Social pressure infests every variation of orthodox jew. How do we know this? Just look at the cross-section of Jews involved in shady business dealings…yetzer hara. Once a boy or girl understand that happiness and money are completely separate things and attraction is in the eye of the beholder, they will make clearer choices.
I call it the “Mall parking lot syndrome” Someone drives to the Mall and looks for a parking space close to the entrance as they find a parking space they wonder if they can find a closer space. They continue driving round-and round till they find a space…unfortunately by that time the Mall has already closed.
the problem is that 18 year old girls come home from seminary and were told they need to get married. they have no idea what type of family they want to raise, they have no idea what they want to do with their life. girls that are fresh back from seminary should NOT be dating. Everyone is so quick to blame the guys dating younger girls, or the girls for being too picky, but in reality….the “shidduch crisis” is really synonymous with flatbush mentality. the reason there are older girls that are single is because the parents are so superficial and care more about what will benefit themselves and how their name will be perceived. you have the boys who will only date girls whose parents have money. why? or a girl who goes to movies, listens to music, wears denim skirts just to the knee, who is she to say no to a guy because he wears jeans?!?!? all of a sudden shes a besser mentch now?? the mothers of these girls won’t let them date the boy that is right for them, they are looking for a boy that the neighbors can all look and go wow, not someone that will make their daughter happy. everyone’s brilliant resolution of the “crisis” to have younger guys date older girls have clearly never tried redding a shidduch like that…..90% of girl will NOT date a guy who is younger because they are embarrassed and feel it is beneath them…..but gl trying.
I am convinced that the Shidduch crisis is only very partially due to the age gap situation.
Regarding there being a problem by Chassidim with the boys and by the Yeshivishe with the girls, maybe some Chassidishe boys and Yeshivishe girls should consider marrying each other. I did it and Boruch Hashem my marriage is amazing.
I am convinced that the Shidduch crisis has more to do with the amount of girls that say they want a learning guy, compared to the amount of true learning guys available. This has also made Shiduchim into a cattle market with those that pay the most getting the hogs.
boys marry younger girls so they can have more children. older girls shouldn’t expect a 19 year old bochur, but should move to dating divorces, or outside their community or gerim or BT if they don’t like older men in their early 40’s. people shouldn’t try and marry an idea or a concept. “litvish” “chasidish” “syrian” or “modern”, but should just marry for the mitzva and with someone who they can get along with. love comes after marriage, and nobody cares who you marry after the sheva brochos.
I agree with #5 there is an underlying problem that’s not being adresses such as, unrealistic expectations, runaway materialsm, going back to the basics and teaching young people what their tafkid truly is in life, non income producing boys waiting for their big payday….. I for one am married to a man 8 years older than me and he truly is my zivug a younger man could not have handeled some of the issues that came up in the beginning of my marriage. Also, I will not allow my 19 y.o. son to start dating until he is ready emotionally and financially (i.e. have a good plan) which will probably be around 23. To tell a 20 y.o. young man to get and married and everything will “work out” is ridiculous and leads to bigger problems down the road.
How can I get a copy of the statistical analysis of the demographic issues in order to check its validity? Does Nasi make that available?
Which mathematicians did they speak to? Did those mathematicians conduct their own original research or did they rely on information provided to them? Did they take into consideration both the Baal Teshuva and the at risk phenomena and how that would affect the demographic realities? Did they consider the possibility of marriages across Orthodox denominational lines, etc?
Wow!
The math is so simple. But as the saying goes: Don’t let the facts get in the way!
Weissman wants to bash the Rabbis and believes the Rabbis are always wrong so who cares about the math, beliefs are more important.
Dogma trumps science in his world! Sounds familiar?
Christians of the dark ages anyone?
All the rebbeim in yeshiva tells us to learn forever:
“What about parnassah?”
“Don’t worry, Chaim’l! You’re the best guy! Go to Lakewood and they’ll be bidding on you! You’ll be set for life!”
THIS is the problem.
There are roughly the same amount of Frum boys as there is girls.However, boys have the luxury of being more picky. Kol Koreh’s will not change this. I know an old Chaim Berliner who told me that his rosh hayeshivah (you know who) was disappointed in him for not marrying a youngerwealthier girl. Of course lishaim shamayem.
This article is the classic example of what is called “beating up on a straw man.” You paint your opponent’s position in the most extreme and simplistic terms (i.e. you make him into a straw man) and then you show how clever you are in negating that opnion (beating up on the straw man).
It is foolish to claim that the shidduch crisis can be resolved simply by convincing bochurim to date women who are the same age or older. But certainly encouraging bochurim to consider a broad range of possibilities and not possul a shidduch merely because a woman is not exactly three years younger would have a positive impact in helping the shidduch crisis. IOW, if the boy is 24, why should he completely possul a girl who is also 24 (or even 25 or 26) simply because of age?
I know quite a few situations where the woman was of equal age or even a bit older and they worked out fine.
(Of course, the same can be said for other considerations. Bochurim should be encouraged to look for good middos, yiras shomayim and a stable family life. Money and stunning good looks are much less important — not to even mention narishkeit like the color of someone’s tablecloth.)
the crisis is caused by the following:
the yeshivas led by the rosh yeshivas have set up the system for the last 25 years that no education is needed and g-did you work or pursue a degree or occupation before you are married even if it means you smoke and drink coffee allday or do worse in your dorm
therefore all the boys who are of marigable need to marry money as they will either conttinue what they were doing till now or regardless have no way of supporting themselves
untill we stop this idiocy which does not exist byhasidish
and for the most part did not exist in europe the crisis will not end since there are x number of girls with moneyin each class and if the girls with money are grabbed up then the remaining boys will wait for the next crop this is the underlying problem
we have a monster in our midst of everyboy demanding 5-10 years and not every girl wants it or her parents can afford it
so untill we address this problem nothing will change
A big part of the shidduch crisis is being caused by rebbes and morahs telling their students in bais medrash and seminaries what types of boys and girls to marry or to avoid.
These clueless M’chachin have no statistics on the types of boys and girls which exist in any particular category, and are causing havoc in the shidduch arena.
The solution is for the M’chachin to cease giving marriage advice altogether.
lets be realistic 18-20 year old girls are not marrying 18 -20 year old boys. the girls may be ready and mature but the boys are still babies who still want to enjoy life while they can.
according to the takonos parents shouldn’t allow their daughters to marry until they are 21 unless they want their daughters to marry babies. automatically girls parents have to look for older boys who are somewhat mature to take care of their daughters.
Today’s yeshiva boys are spoon fed and lack any sense of resposibilities and cannot be expected to get married at a young age.
We end up with the new phenomenon taking place- babies having babies and the instant divorce. I currently know 6 couples who have been married less than 2 years getting divorced. All either have babies already or are pregnant and are still getting divorced. something is wrong with our society
Boys are encouraged to seek out girls with money so that they can sit and learn. I personally am involved in shidduchim and boys mothers have said to me that if they can’t support fully and can’t give an amount that they are not interested!! It is true that most boys seek out younger girls. A 25 year old wants the 18- and 19- the 23 year old is too old!!!!!! – hence the problem. The boys ought to realize tht marring a girl closer to their age may give them companionship later in life.
sorry for the grammar before my computer was freezing
as i said
if every boy in lakewood and other similar institutions insist on learning for 5 years minimum with no plan then all girls who are not interested in having a husband with no plan with 5 children are knocked out of the box as well as all fathers who cannot support then these girls are also not looked at
this chinuch has destroyed a generation and fostered lazyness no one wants to work for a living just doing deals screwing banks credit card companies etc all while being in kollel driving a brand new leased car and pushing a bugaboo
I think one of the reasons are that more boys going off the derech, i mean look in some grades 20 out of a hundred go off, thats 20%
Instead of debating all of the potiential reasons and putting blame on each other, should we not be trying to set people up. Help an older single meet their beshert. Do something, take action. Make a list of all the single people you know, look at them and see if you can set them up. So we can discuss something else beside shidduch crisis.
Perhaps the Litvishe community should see why there isn’t a shidduch crisis in the Chassidishe community. Check out their system and pick up some good points.
For starters, Chassidishe boys, even the biggest masmidim, get married at a young age. It’s approximately the same age as the girls they are marrying. Lately their appears to be a trend of boys marrying girls a year or two older. When this happens, nobody blinks twice.
Secondly, it’s not a chassidishe minhag for a masmid to ask for full support from the girls parents. It’s usually 50/50. Their are exceptions but it’s not accepted as the proper thing to do.
Thirdly, chassidishe boys respect there wives enough to realize when the kollel arrangement isn’t working out and proceed to help with the parnassa. Their rosh yeshivos don’t instill in them a sense of gaiva and entitlement because they are masmidim. Hashem accepts the Torah of men who are koveah ittim as much as those that sit in kollel while their wives, in laws and parents do back breaking work to support him.
Can I imagine the litvishe community learning anything from Chasidim. Well, miracles do happen.
reply to #50
youre dead wrong!!its the girls and there parents who are looking for the “long term learners”willing to support them.its about time the girls be honest with themself!!!
Of the 56 posts up to now, four people (numbers 45, 50. 53, 56) seemed to have figured out sonmething that eludes most people who talk about the yeshivishe “shidduch crisis” .
That is, if you are going to try to explain why something first became a “crisis” in the last 15 or so years, you need to come up with an explanation that explains what changed in the last 15 or so years.
True, guys generally marry girl afew years younger than them. But hasn’t that been the general case forever?
True the frum population cohort is continuously growing k”a, but hasn’t that been true since 1945?
Is there any good reason to believe that these factors suddenly became so much worse in the last 15 years.
In addition, the “crisis” has two distinct manifestations 1) More girls remain single longer, and 2) many girls wait months just to get a date.
The second part, cannot be explained by the simple discrepancy between the size of the male and female cohorts.
I do believe that the demographic issue is contributing to the problem, but I think a bigger issue – unique to the last 15 years – is the percentage of boys who come into the parsha intending to learn for a while and therefore focusing on money. There’s only so many rich girls to go around and the boys will wait for them while others girls sit around.
Look around. See if the wealthy people you know are having a shidduch “crisis” with their daughters.
I think this problem has many different angles which need to be solved. From shaddchanim asking what types of dishes are used to find out if the mother lights shabbos candels in a wig or a covering.
There is also a major problem with parents thinking that children from divorced homes have problems regardless of how amazing the child actually is.
And as a seperate problemthere is also a Gezirah that was intended to last for 1000 years which is now over and the Rabbanim still have not changed back to the way things were probably intended to be.
My main point is that all the people involved in the matching of a boy and girl for marriage should mainly look at the merits of the individual before the family. Especially in todays day and age children are very different from the parents in all aspects.
We need to reform ourselves to look at these situations differently and not look where we can give blame.
Oh please, we do have to use our brains and do our hishtadlus. The frum community grow rapidly, KA”H. Therefore, there are more 18-year-olds than there are 22 year olds. It’s simple logic and math. So if you have 10,000 22-year-old boys looking to marry from a pool of 12,000 18-year-old girls – well, use the brain Hashem gave you. 2,000 girls are left without a shidduch.
The Gedolim letter misses an important point. In the long run the solution is to marry boys earlier, when they are 20 not 22-24. If boys continue to get married when they are 22, they will have a full range of girls available to them including the ones that are 18. Naturally many will still take the younger ones. The problem will not go away untill the age that boys start dating = the age that girls start dating. That can only be accomplished by getting the boys to get into shidduchim earlier.
Skilled writer! Intelligent thinker! Likely notable intentions! Most worthy & important issue! BUT!!!!
This kind of effort to undermine and attack our esteemed, righteous and praiseworthy rabbanim will doubtfully lead to any progress. The writer quotes lofty concepts such as the chazal “Arboyim yom kodem havalad”. What about the Chazal’s that teach Emunas Tzadikim & Chachamim? Conventional logic and seemingly common sense don’t always dictate or solicit the relevant and appropriate response. The Navi tells us “Lo machshevosai machshevosechem”. Although it is proper and encouraged to use our intellect, we must follow in the ways of our fathers whom attached much importance to simple emunas chachamim and belief in their rabbanim are filled with Torah logic and Torah common sense, and are saturated siyatta dishmaya and holiness. Chazal teach us that Hashem is “mezaveg z’vugim kol hayom”, we have to be fools to believe that we have all the answers to the “shidduch crisis”. Of course we need to be mishtadul to some extent, but not without the guidance of our rabbanim. While the writers ideas should be considered (because he has given time to thus subject) it’s obvious from his tone that he has no respect for our rabbis in general because it would have been wiser and more productive for him to try to have a respectful dialog with some of them so his expertise and ideas would be influential in helping them form their opinions. It is obvious prejudice and contempt for these type of rabbis that precludes him from doing that. This kind of approach in leading the masses to disrespect our leaders and to disapprove of their actions (using billams donkey, and the rabbis in the next sentence) will certainly yield no siyatta dishmaya or positive results.