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New York - Linking Shidduch Crisis To Boys Preference For Younger Age Is Ludicrous

Published on: October 21, 2009 09:42 AM
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New York - What is one supposed to do when a respected rabbi makes a pronouncement that is disconnected from logic and reality? Is he supposed to convince himself that he doesn’t know better, can’t possibly know better? Is he supposed to keep quiet, lest the thought police bludgeon his dissent? Should he risk bringing serious social retribution upon his family for challenging the cozy illusions many have about their leaders and their society?

What if it is not one rabbi making this wayward pronouncement but 60?

That is what happened earlier this month with a letter signed by 60 prominent rabbis. see here the letter PDF.
Editors note: VIN News was not able to verify the validity of this Letter, as in the past, many of those so called Kol Kories have turned out to be either fabricated, or signed signatures with no verifications.

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“It has recently been revealed [by whom, Elijah the prophet?] that the primary cause of the [shidduch crisis] is that boys frequently prefer girls who are a few years younger… Since every year our population grows, the result is that there are always more girls in need of a shidduch than there are available boys.”

The letter strongly urges shadhanim [matchmakers] to push shidduchim[matches] in which there is a minimal age gap between the boy and girl, or for the girl to be older.

For years we were told that there is no crisis in the “frum world,” only in the “modern world.” Then a crisis was grudgingly acknowledged but blamed on scapegoats like television, movies and the Internet, implying that good Jews who avoided these contaminants faced no crisis. Then we were told the problem was simply that singles are too picky, or that some girls are not “cut out” for the holy kollel lifestyle, or that we should learn from the arranged marriages of the hassidic world, where everything is always swell.

But no. It has finally been revealed that the heart of the problem is a shortage of eligible men and too wide an age gap in shidduchim. All those other issues I’ve been writing about for seven years? Mere spilled ink it seems. I’m a little embarrassed.

THE PROPOSED solution of these signatories is even more bizarre than their determination of the problem. For one thing, it is self-contradictory. The problem assumes that more girls are being born than boys, thus exacerbating the gender disparity over time. But the proposed solution - manipulate men to marry older women - is predicated on the assumption that if we can only buy some time things will even out. In other words, the incoming crop of singles will have more men than women. Wrap your head around that.

It gets worse. This fancy cocktail of demography, sociology, mathematics and mythology is really nothing more than a Ponzi scheme. Let’s assume that there really are far more eligible women than men. And let’s assume we can manipulate the men to marry the oldest women in the pool. What will happen to all the younger women who remain? They will simply age and become older singles. What problem exactly have we solved here?

There are a finite number of men and a finite number of women, and each shidduch takes one of each out of the group. You can play with the numbers all you want, but you can’t escape that simple fact. More men will not magically appear if we manipulate who marries whom and try to buy some time. Did Bernie Madoff come up with this idea?

Just as the thought police will rant that I should have more faith in these rabbis, I will counter that these rabbis should have more faith in the sages and God. After all, the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so. In other words, God created a soul mate for everyone.

Do they deny the veracity of this teaching? Are these rabbis “modern” and believe it is no longer relevant? Has God decided to take a sabbatical for a generation or two and stop keeping track of things? They tread on dangerous ground with this proclamation, far more dangerous than mine in calling them on it.

According to these rabbis, or whoever wrote this letter for them, if I see a successful, beautiful, happily married couple with more than a few years between them, I should shake my head and wish we could do it over again. After all, their shidduch exacerbates a demographic problem. If I have the opportunity to introduce a man and woman who seem absolutely perfect for one another, I should first see if I can find an older woman for that man. There should even be a financial incentive for me to do so.

In essence, their recommendation is not that we arrange dates based entirely and exclusively on considerations of marital compatibility. We should give strong preference to an artificial consideration based on a presumed demographic problem. Don’t suggest the most suitable shidduch for that man; suggest a somewhat reasonable shidduch within a narrow age range. That’s the most important thing. We’re not trying to build the happiest and most stable Jewish families, but to play a numbers game. Right?

NO MATTER how you look at it, this pronouncement is nothing more than science fiction, and whether 60 rabbis or 6,000 rabbis sign it doesn’t make it any more intelligent. Balaam’s donkey said some wise words, and the fact that they came from a donkey didn’t change that. These rabbis have attached their names to some foolish words, and their rabbinic title doesn’t change that either. We need to acknowledge that and soundly reject their recommendation, which would solve no problems and only create new ones, all while distracting our community from the real issues.

This is not a matter of Torah scholarship or interpretation of a traditional text, but one of plain facts and basic reason. Rabbinic titles do not trump facts and reason. A rabbi can tell us if the chicken is kosher or treif. A rabbi cannot tell us that the chicken is really an ostrich.

A true Torah scholar is well aware of a communal crisis early on, even anticipates the crisis. A true Torah scholar is intelligent and informed about the real issues, is proactive in developing truly meaningful and effective responses that address the heart of the problem, and is not afraid of what some members of the community will think of them.

A true Torah scholar does not follow, but leads, and leads well - not off the cliff.

Those who signed this letter have essentially advertised their ignorance of these critical issues and have recklessly urged a harmful course of action. Shame on them and shame on those responsible for this letter.

The writer is the founder of End the Madness (www.endthemadness.org), a volunteer effort to rehabilitate the culture of the shidduch world.
admin@endthemadness.org


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1

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

The younger girls in the pool will get married to boys their own age...they won't become older singles...

Speaking from experience as a single girl, it is extremely difficult to get a date with tzugepaste boy, and I commend the NASI program and the rabbanim for working on this issue

2

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:02 AM Anonymous Says:

Obviously this writer failed in math! He seems to be missing the basic concept. This has little to do with the fact that there are more female then men! It is simply that we have 4 years of boys who are not in Shiduchim, while their female counterparts are. Imagine that all boys that are now 18 will get into shiduchim? We will have potentially 1000's of shiduchim. The next year will not lose, as the same amount of both boys & girls will enter the scene. With the growing population, the disportion gets larger & larger.
This is no Ponzi but simple math, but the simple man who knows no math, likes to make noise.

3

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:01 AM Anonymous Says:

As usual, we witness these public proclamations (whose veracity is questionable) that are knee jerk reactions to problems (which may not be attributable to anything or anyone and may not be community problems). It would be nice if these were subjected to good analysis before resulting in Kol Koreys, bans, or proclamations. I am personally acquainted with many singles of varying ages. Is this a crisis? It certainly is for each of them, but then someone with an illness is also in crisis. Why is it the community's issue if I am sick? How will such public statements help?

4

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:00 AM Ph. D. Says:

...Written with an agenda and a very weak understanding of the details and of mathematical statistics. The truth is that if men marry older women they WILL cut down the disparity between the number of eligible young men and women.

5

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:59 AM Aryeh Says:

The shidduch crisis is due to one factor and one factor alone: the corruption of the minds of our youth.

1. The unrealistic expectations that serve as population control among the goyim have seeped into our communities via television, internet and even billboards and music and polluted the minds of our children.

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

3. We must first learn to guard our own eyes, hearts and mouths before we can expect our children to have enough sensitivity to be able to marry their zivug, and not treat their first shidduch date as a preparation for a career of coffee and dinners well into their 30's G-d forbid.

4. Keep your children in Boro Park, and stop letting them move to the Upper West Side. Teach them a trade locally, and don't send them to University in Harlem.

6

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Afilu Omrim Al Yemin Shehu Smol......
BTW this guy's solution to the shidduch crisis is to have mixed singles events.

7

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:

This viewpoint is so utterly simplistic it'd be laugable if it weren't so tragic. Nobody wants to "manipulate" boys to marry girls. The idea is to breakdown the perception that a 3 year age gap is the norm. If it weren't taboo to marry an older or same age girl, if people would stop wondering what's wrong with a guy who does that, then maybe, perhaps, older girls would find more a greater pool available to them.

8

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:14 AM Milhouse Says:

The 60 rabbis, whether real or imaginary, have their arithmetic right, and Weissman has it wrong. This is pretty elementary stuff. In a population that is increasing, each age cohort is bigger than the one before it. KAH there were more children born in 1990 than in 1985, and therefore there were more girls born in 1990 than boys in 1985. And so long as our fertility continues BEH, this trend will also continue indefinitely; there will be more girls born in 2015 than boys in 2010. (Each cohort starts out with slightly more boys than girls, but by the time it reaches shidduch age this gap has disappeared.)

The bigger the average age gap between husbands and wives, the more girls will be left on the shelf. In polygamous societies the typical age gap is particularly pronounced, thus producing enough available girls for older men to take a second wife.

9

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:

The real crisis is the growing void in real torah leadership within klal yisroel and so called "gadolim" or their gaaboim (especially in the case of geriatric gadolim who seem to be suffering form the aging process) who issue these psak, kol korehs etc. that are detached from torah and reality. The effect of each one of these stupid issuances is to further distance most yidden from reliance on these rabbonim for guidance on how to live their lives and a return to a more personal relationship with local rabbonim and poseks who may lack the reputation but provide the needed guidance to be shomrei torah umitzvot.

10

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:42 AM ABCD Says:

What happened to simple emunah, and bitachon. The color of stockings or whether we use paper or plastic or china on shabbos really isn't a Lav/Mitzva in the Torah. It surely isn't going to make a marriage happier or not.

We have become a generation that is so focused on external/chitzonius things to "show" frumkeit.

If people stopped focusing on external/chitzonius stuff, and started focusing on truly being "kedoshim tehiyu" as the Ribono shel Olom requests. Started focusing on their ahavas Hashem and ahavas reyim and all the things HASHEM - NOT PEOPLE - require, we might find that we have a lot more in common with a lot more yidden and maybe there would be a greater pool of people for everyone to date - it would eliminate a lot of the people that get ruled out because of silly things - like paper vs. plastic vs. china dishes.

We took to focus off Hashem and put it on silly things.

11

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:41 AM FVNMS Says:

My friend was redd (redded?) a shidduch but he said no. I think he's making a mistake, but hey, it's his business. Why did he nix this fine shidduch? He remembers her great-great-nephew from yeshiva and he didn't get along with him. Silly, no?

12

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:39 AM Loshon Hora Says:

Another problem with forcefully forcing shidduchim. Chas Veshalom I don't mean to humiliate demean any yiddishe girl or boy this is all high pathetical.
EG Mrs. A calls Bochur A; Sunday night with a shidduch, "I have found your bashertee such a nice etc...
He starts calling."did you know her parents are divorced she was ill as a child & has 2 broken engagements, she also has a reading disability & poor social skills etc.
Obviously quite offended he calls is polite.
Next week again you get the picture, he becomes a little less polite this goes on a while. The bochur feels humiliated & wonders wow am I so bad? he calls his family & freinds & begins to lose self confidence, and starts needing reassurance.
Now he is convinced this lady has no idea who he is & thinks very little of him, but just being a name pusher she actually finds a good one & calls again with all force, by now the bochur practically turns it down over the phone, he takes the abuse & she yells at him that he isn't interested in getting married Blah blah blah.
A few months later a good freind calls with that good shiduch, after hearing it from the horses mouth, convinced that she has such a low opinion of him he gets offended & is polite abnd turns it down. It may take 10 years until they meet, or he may never.
Thank you stupid name pushing forceful shadachan, look at your damage!!!.
I know a very good name pusher shadchan, but she has the meschlechkeit to say I am a name pusher & hakodosh Boruch Hu is the shadchan, she doesn't force you, & appologizes if you refuse,she admits I don't really know her it is just a name.
A little more thought could save a lot of damage the roads to Hellare paved with good intentions.

13

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:38 AM FVNMS Says:

Internet, TV, Billboards, Movies, Magazines, Newspapers, Kittens, Tuna Sandwiches... everybody's an expert. But nobody says it like it is. Enter me.

We are a generation of ba'alei ga'ava the likes of which never existed. We seem to consider ourselves royalty in general, especially when it comes to shidduchim. We look for mates for ourselves as if shopping for esrogim. Only the best best for me. No imperfection. After all, I don't care if there's a soulmate for me out there who'll take care of me when I'm down, forgive my stupid moves, support my decisions no matter what, be a self-sacrificing parent to the children I plan on having, etc. He/she's imperfect.

The imperfections: He was a nerd in High school (adults still say that). His brother married a girl who's sister wears pants. She has a high collarbone (yup, heard that one too). Her grandparents don't have money. He davens in a shul that I never heard of. He went to the wrong yeshiva. She had a sick brother. He doesn't want to live in Borough Park (that "bad catch" was yours truly). Everybody knows him. Nobody knows him. Her father makes too little money. Her father makes too much money (I swear). She wants to live in Etzissrohl and I want to live in Lakewood for a year. My son (I) would never consider Brooklyn girls.

14

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM Agent Emess Says:

Shidduch Crisis???

Mental health crisis, maybe!

15

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM Oh really! Says:

"... the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so..."

This is also a "reiyeh" that the boys marry YOUNGER GIRLS! because there is a simple question. why does it say "the daughter of so etc " will marry etc..." why not at the birth of a boy the bas kol goes out and says " these boy will marry that girl"?
Answer: Because in MOST CASES WHEN THE BOY IS BORN THE GIRL IS NOT YET LIVE!"

So now these Rabbonim are arguing with an open gemorah!
This must be false!!!

16

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Aryeh Says:

The shidduch crisis is due to one factor and one factor alone: the corruption of the minds of our youth.

1. The unrealistic expectations that serve as population control among the goyim have seeped into our communities via television, internet and even billboards and music and polluted the minds of our children.

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

3. We must first learn to guard our own eyes, hearts and mouths before we can expect our children to have enough sensitivity to be able to marry their zivug, and not treat their first shidduch date as a preparation for a career of coffee and dinners well into their 30's G-d forbid.

4. Keep your children in Boro Park, and stop letting them move to the Upper West Side. Teach them a trade locally, and don't send them to University in Harlem.

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

Says who? Williamsburg has the same crisis [preceived or not] as in other neighborhoods, the notion that everyone in Williamsburg get engaged/married at 18 is erroneous.

17

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:30 AM webmom Says:

Reply to #8  
Milhouse Says:

The 60 rabbis, whether real or imaginary, have their arithmetic right, and Weissman has it wrong. This is pretty elementary stuff. In a population that is increasing, each age cohort is bigger than the one before it. KAH there were more children born in 1990 than in 1985, and therefore there were more girls born in 1990 than boys in 1985. And so long as our fertility continues BEH, this trend will also continue indefinitely; there will be more girls born in 2015 than boys in 2010. (Each cohort starts out with slightly more boys than girls, but by the time it reaches shidduch age this gap has disappeared.)

The bigger the average age gap between husbands and wives, the more girls will be left on the shelf. In polygamous societies the typical age gap is particularly pronounced, thus producing enough available girls for older men to take a second wife.

I understand that each generation is larger than the one before it...what I don't get is how can one say that the amount of kids born in 1988 is larger than the amount born in 1985...so that if a boy marries a girl 3 years younger than himself he contributes to the problem....

18

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:28 AM basicmath Says:

The author in trying to bash rabonim missed the boat big time. Assuming there are an equal number of boys and girls born each year. However the population expands B"H each year. That means more children will be born in (both boys and girls)2013 than in 2009. Now if the boys born in 2009 marry the girls from 2013 we are left with the increased # of girls without a match. As far as to the Bas kol he quotes from the Gemara in Sotah it does not mean you don't have to make an hishtadlus. It is a fact that in the chassidisher world (except for Gerrer Bochurim) there is less of a problem being that they marry closer in age. Gerrer Bochurim do have a harder time finding a shidduch, simply because they have very strict rules regarding Kedusha Vthara after the wedding. I hope this clarifies matters and realy I was wondering the same thing the author asks in the beginning of his article. What is one supposed to do when a respected WRITER writes an article disconnected from logic etc.

19

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:28 AM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Obviously this writer failed in math! He seems to be missing the basic concept. This has little to do with the fact that there are more female then men! It is simply that we have 4 years of boys who are not in Shiduchim, while their female counterparts are. Imagine that all boys that are now 18 will get into shiduchim? We will have potentially 1000's of shiduchim. The next year will not lose, as the same amount of both boys & girls will enter the scene. With the growing population, the disportion gets larger & larger.
This is no Ponzi but simple math, but the simple man who knows no math, likes to make noise.

I'm afraid you have missed the point as well. The key here is that the frum community has a growing population. Suppose that the population increases by 10% every five years (I just made that up). That means, in theory, that for every ten 5-year-olds, there are 11 newborn babies. That means that for every ten 23-year-olds, there are eleven 18-year-olds. If (suppose) the typical frum marriage involves a boy who is five years older than the girl, then there will only be 10 boys for every 11 girls. This would leave nearly 10% of the frum girls without mates.

I'm simplifying this, and frankly I don't think this entirely explains the shidduch crisis - I think that such a statement would require some real research and hard statistics - but it's probably true to some degree.

Regardless, Chananya - even if you were right (and I'm not saying you don't have some valid points), it's kind of silly to pit yourself against all the signatories of this letter. Nobody will take you seriously with a stance like that. If you would generally agree with it but ask some questions about it in a respectful manner, you'd probably have a bigger audience for your view.

20

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Afilu Omrim Al Yemin Shehu Smol......
BTW this guy's solution to the shidduch crisis is to have mixed singles events.

That's great!

Finally someone is stating the obvious...instead of raising boys and girls in worlds so separate they may as well be from separate planets, and then forcing them to go through the degrading shidduch process, with lying and ignorant "expert" shadchanim attempting to match them up one by one by one, let them interact with many people and allow relationships to develop over time as is natural.

Not only do we solve the shudduch crisis, but we get to solve a huge number of marital problems for free.

21

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM Shadchan Says:

This anonymous coward that wrote this letter slandering the biggest gedolei torah the world has today, should do his research before bringing down the entire moetzes. You obviosly have never had an older girl in the parsha as can be seen from your lack of sensitivity towards people who are unimaginably hurting. You bring the concept of basherte and bas kol yotze vomeres bas ploni lploni to validate you, but the gemarah also speaks very strongly about the idea of "chapping" a woman before someone else 'Shema ykadmenu acher" we see that although everything is basherte the is still a very strong concept of Hishtadlus. Yes, there definitly is a crisis, NASI Program led by Moshe P. has done extensive research in the field, speaking to mathmeticians all across the US, and they have all pointed to this theory. You are right chassidim dont have a crisis because many times boys are marrying girls older than them. The person obviously has a lot of built up rage against gedolim, but please not at the expense of our suffering older singles

22

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:47 AM ShatzMatz Says:

It seems like Mr. Madness got his degree in mathematics from Tuoro College. The fact is that the advise of the Rabbonim are based on demographic models that have been worked out by experts in the field and the logic is sound.

If a large proportion of the oilem would heed this advise it would clean up the current crop of older girls in a decade or so. Afterwards the matter will have to be restudied and perhaps boys will just be encouraged to marry younger to girls of thier own age.

Practically speaking though, only a small percentage of boys will heed this advise. It will help the situation a little bit, but the fact will be that most boys will still marry younger girls. Some girls will marry younger boys and that will help things even out a little thereby alleviating the problem, but not eliminate it.

The main issue that will not be solved by this solution is the simple fact that there are more 'good' girls than there are 'good' boys. This is true of any age group.

By chasidim this is not such a problem because the boys are so young when they marry, and the contact during dating is so limited that the girls don't know the difference, or they set their standards low.

23

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:

First and most import is that yiddin should not be relying on shiduchim for finding their soulmates and future spouse. There are many opportunities today for boys and girls to meet in healthy and halachicly appropriate settings so that they can get to know one another directly rather than paying some yenta to do a shidduch where the schadchan is being told to fix the "age gap" and other nareshkeit.

24

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:20 AM Loshon Hora Says:

Went to his site & read his covenant. BTW a covenant is a shvuah, luckily a digital signature is not a halachic binding, so I guess signing it doesn't incriminate you.
He obviously hasn't learned Shulchan Aruch & is unaware that a Pogum isn't a lechatchila Shiduch, and requires you sign that there is no difference.
He seems to have the ego taht he has the solution, more than all others,again I don't see his solution.
I guess that gives him freedom to disregard any Rabonim, if he disregards Shulchan Aruch too. [maybe out of ignorance].
He disregards Ashrei mi sheishto meiiro, of course similar backgrounds make sounder shiduchim.
This is Gezera min Hashamayim, there is no simple aitzo, I know from within.
I have also felt like setting up a forum with Private messaging & letting all advertise & intercat themselves under allaiases, posting there Taavos & imagination, & where they are up to & what they want. Do you think that would help? Of course not, they will never fulfill their desires, no one dies fulfilling even half their taavos. [Chazal] Most of the taavos are from boredom & lonliness,[which will cure with marriage] such a forum, could do more harm than good,searching surfing & messaging to pass time & get no where.
I also don't agree with dating to find out info.
The whole dating is not a Yiddishe derech, nor 100% goyish where they live together first. The parents [when disfunctional thee Rabonim & teachers askonim & neighbours] should do Due dillegence, & then meeting should only be for clarity, like it used to be.
Sending a bochur of 40+ on a sixty mile trip to meet an older girl who hasn't made any inquiries about him, not even one phone call, who at one look at his face says no, yet he has to travel another 20 miles plus & spend anothe $... to take her out to hear NO NO H..LL NO is so wrong, & takes away strength & resource for the right time.
Older girls should be required to take out the men, when they see the stress & pain, the wasteful dating will hopefuly stop.
You can not have a set of rules obviously when the system has failed you try another system.
Some phone dating B4 older people meet should be standard, A little emuna & bitachon & risk may help too.
Another big problem is unsolicted advise, don't give advise if you are not asked to, you only cause harm, iif you don't have a situation you don't understand it.
Someone throwing any shidduch at another also causes damage BL"N I will make another post on that this is too long already.

25

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:17 AM Agent emess Says:

I belive that this article has more to do with socialpolitics then with sceintific and hard facts on this subject.

26

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Why do we give this clown any publicity. As anyone who has followed his agenda knows, he has no clue what the problems are with the system and his solution is to get rid of the system and just have singles events.

27

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:13 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Obviously this writer failed in math! He seems to be missing the basic concept. This has little to do with the fact that there are more female then men! It is simply that we have 4 years of boys who are not in Shiduchim, while their female counterparts are. Imagine that all boys that are now 18 will get into shiduchim? We will have potentially 1000's of shiduchim. The next year will not lose, as the same amount of both boys & girls will enter the scene. With the growing population, the disportion gets larger & larger.
This is no Ponzi but simple math, but the simple man who knows no math, likes to make noise.

...we have 4 years of boys who are not in Shiduchim...

Please explain what you mean by this interesting statement.

28

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:12 AM Midwestern Guy Says:

I would think that the author of this article would have a very high regard for math and science. While he attempts to frame the "letter" as a weak attempt by Rabbonim, the fact is that there is substantial science that led to the conclusion that age differences are an important factor contributing to the current difficulties with shidduchim. Rather than refuting the science, he pulls the scientific equivalent of Godwin's law and calls the math a Madoff-inspired Ponzi scheme.

Talk about disconnected from reality.

29

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Aryeh Says:

The shidduch crisis is due to one factor and one factor alone: the corruption of the minds of our youth.

1. The unrealistic expectations that serve as population control among the goyim have seeped into our communities via television, internet and even billboards and music and polluted the minds of our children.

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

3. We must first learn to guard our own eyes, hearts and mouths before we can expect our children to have enough sensitivity to be able to marry their zivug, and not treat their first shidduch date as a preparation for a career of coffee and dinners well into their 30's G-d forbid.

4. Keep your children in Boro Park, and stop letting them move to the Upper West Side. Teach them a trade locally, and don't send them to University in Harlem.

what you say is idealistic. the fact that we have internet and netflix still very much exists, Either you deal with this reality and admit to what is or it will only get worse, the problem of shidduchim

30

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Obviously this writer failed in math! He seems to be missing the basic concept. This has little to do with the fact that there are more female then men! It is simply that we have 4 years of boys who are not in Shiduchim, while their female counterparts are. Imagine that all boys that are now 18 will get into shiduchim? We will have potentially 1000's of shiduchim. The next year will not lose, as the same amount of both boys & girls will enter the scene. With the growing population, the disportion gets larger & larger.
This is no Ponzi but simple math, but the simple man who knows no math, likes to make noise.

the problem isnt just age, there are many more factors involved. i.e. women are getting careers, men are laidigeyers, there are for a fact more women than me, prefrences for mates have changed from years ago, the methods we use and criteria for choosing a mate is very different than years ago has anyone considered all these factors

31

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:07 AM kupshtik Says:

Actually the chasidishe world has an opposite problem more available boys than girls. My theorý is that many girls from chasidishe families prefer litvish boys. Every chasidishe girl that marries a litvish boy creates a problem for chasidishe boys and litvishe girls. I am wondering if anybody agrees.

32

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:56 AM FVNMS is also a coward Says:

Reply to #21  
Shadchan Says:

This anonymous coward that wrote this letter slandering the biggest gedolei torah the world has today, should do his research before bringing down the entire moetzes. You obviosly have never had an older girl in the parsha as can be seen from your lack of sensitivity towards people who are unimaginably hurting. You bring the concept of basherte and bas kol yotze vomeres bas ploni lploni to validate you, but the gemarah also speaks very strongly about the idea of "chapping" a woman before someone else 'Shema ykadmenu acher" we see that although everything is basherte the is still a very strong concept of Hishtadlus. Yes, there definitly is a crisis, NASI Program led by Moshe P. has done extensive research in the field, speaking to mathmeticians all across the US, and they have all pointed to this theory. You are right chassidim dont have a crisis because many times boys are marrying girls older than them. The person obviously has a lot of built up rage against gedolim, but please not at the expense of our suffering older singles

His posted name: Chananya Weissman
Yours: Shadchan

You call him a coward for posting anonymously. Umm....

33

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:

The writer seems to have his own personal agenda with the shidduch crisis and uses the public platform to express his frustration and bash the gedolim who are actually trying to help the situation with this sensible idea.

34

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Oh really! Says:

"... the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so..."

This is also a "reiyeh" that the boys marry YOUNGER GIRLS! because there is a simple question. why does it say "the daughter of so etc " will marry etc..." why not at the birth of a boy the bas kol goes out and says " these boy will marry that girl"?
Answer: Because in MOST CASES WHEN THE BOY IS BORN THE GIRL IS NOT YET LIVE!"

So now these Rabbonim are arguing with an open gemorah!
This must be false!!!

You can believe in your "open gemorah" that for everyone there is a beschert and blindly allow your son or daughter to marry whomever shows up at the door but hashem allows us to make our own choices. Ignore these rabbonim and shadchonim and perform your own due dilligence about somone with whom you want to spend your life with and raise a family. There is no excuse for relying on someone else. If you do, you deserve what you get.

35

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:50 AM Use Your Head Says:

Historically, it was clearly considered normal for a husband to be older (sometimes significantly) than his wife. Just check the Torah! All of the Avos, for example.... In general, 12-13 was considered the normal age of marriage for a girl, while men were encouraged to marry by 18 (with 13 being "min hamuvchor" but clearly not the norm). However, eis la'asos La'shem - if there is a crisis, we need to solve it.

36

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:02 AM Anonymous Says:

The crisis has nothing to do with age. It is the classic yetzer hara of entitlement, greed, desire, "keeping up with the schwartz's". Social pressure infests every variation of orthodox jew. How do we know this? Just look at the cross-section of Jews involved in shady business dealings...yetzer hara. Once a boy or girl understand that happiness and money are completely separate things and attraction is in the eye of the beholder, they will make clearer choices.

I call it the "Mall parking lot syndrome" Someone drives to the Mall and looks for a parking space close to the entrance as they find a parking space they wonder if they can find a closer space. They continue driving round-and round till they find a space...unfortunately by that time the Mall has already closed.

37

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:58 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #22  
ShatzMatz Says:

It seems like Mr. Madness got his degree in mathematics from Tuoro College. The fact is that the advise of the Rabbonim are based on demographic models that have been worked out by experts in the field and the logic is sound.

If a large proportion of the oilem would heed this advise it would clean up the current crop of older girls in a decade or so. Afterwards the matter will have to be restudied and perhaps boys will just be encouraged to marry younger to girls of thier own age.

Practically speaking though, only a small percentage of boys will heed this advise. It will help the situation a little bit, but the fact will be that most boys will still marry younger girls. Some girls will marry younger boys and that will help things even out a little thereby alleviating the problem, but not eliminate it.

The main issue that will not be solved by this solution is the simple fact that there are more 'good' girls than there are 'good' boys. This is true of any age group.

By chasidim this is not such a problem because the boys are so young when they marry, and the contact during dating is so limited that the girls don't know the difference, or they set their standards low.

So you're saying sacrifice this generation for the next. Social engineering of sorts.

38

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:28 AM 100% in Agreement with Letter Says:

Reply to #37  
FVNMS Says:

So you're saying sacrifice this generation for the next. Social engineering of sorts.

NO!! This generations 18-22 set of girls will STOP dating until their male age group is ready to day. Seriously, do you not get this??

39

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:27 AM Aryeh Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

Says who? Williamsburg has the same crisis [preceived or not] as in other neighborhoods, the notion that everyone in Williamsburg get engaged/married at 18 is erroneous.

My wife is close to one of the biggest Satmar shadchans in Williamsburg. There is no crisis. Sometimes special boys wait until 25 and unique girls marry in their mid 20's, but this has always existed.

40

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:25 AM Anonymous Says:

I agree with #5 there is an underlying problem that's not being adresses such as, unrealistic expectations, runaway materialsm, going back to the basics and teaching young people what their tafkid truly is in life, non income producing boys waiting for their big payday..... I for one am married to a man 8 years older than me and he truly is my zivug a younger man could not have handeled some of the issues that came up in the beginning of my marriage. Also, I will not allow my 19 y.o. son to start dating until he is ready emotionally and financially (i.e. have a good plan) which will probably be around 23. To tell a 20 y.o. young man to get and married and everything will "work out" is ridiculous and leads to bigger problems down the road.

41

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:25 AM Aryeh Says:

boys marry younger girls so they can have more children. older girls shouldn't expect a 19 year old bochur, but should move to dating divorces, or outside their community or gerim or BT if they don't like older men in their early 40's. people shouldn't try and marry an idea or a concept. "litvish" "chasidish" "syrian" or "modern", but should just marry for the mitzva and with someone who they can get along with. love comes after marriage, and nobody cares who you marry after the sheva brochos.

42

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:38 AM Dag Says:

How can I get a copy of the statistical analysis of the demographic issues in order to check its validity? Does Nasi make that available?

Which mathematicians did they speak to? Did those mathematicians conduct their own original research or did they rely on information provided to them? Did they take into consideration both the Baal Teshuva and the at risk phenomena and how that would affect the demographic realities? Did they consider the possibility of marriages across Orthodox denominational lines, etc?

43

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:17 AM Miss Williamsburg Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

Says who? Williamsburg has the same crisis [preceived or not] as in other neighborhoods, the notion that everyone in Williamsburg get engaged/married at 18 is erroneous.

I don't agree. Williamsburg has some sort of Shidduch crisis but on the opposite gender. There are more available boys than girls. But I wouldn't call it a Shidduch crisis and certainly not on the level that the non-Chassidish world is experiencing.

I do agree with you that the perceived notion that everyone in Williamsburg gets engaged by 18 is wrong. 18 is actually young. Most get engaged between the ages of 19-21. But boys and girls generally get engaged to someone their own age or maybe a year younger, either way.

So it is very logical that a large age gap between boys and girls getting engaged as it is in the non Chassidish world certainly contributes to a Shidduch crisis.

44

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:14 AM Everyone has their pet peeve Says:

I am convinced that the Shidduch crisis is only very partially due to the age gap situation.

Regarding there being a problem by Chassidim with the boys and by the Yeshivishe with the girls, maybe some Chassidishe boys and Yeshivishe girls should consider marrying each other. I did it and Boruch Hashem my marriage is amazing.

I am convinced that the Shidduch crisis has more to do with the amount of girls that say they want a learning guy, compared to the amount of true learning guys available. This has also made Shiduchim into a cattle market with those that pay the most getting the hogs.

45

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:13 AM Anonymous Says:

the problem is that 18 year old girls come home from seminary and were told they need to get married. they have no idea what type of family they want to raise, they have no idea what they want to do with their life. girls that are fresh back from seminary should NOT be dating. Everyone is so quick to blame the guys dating younger girls, or the girls for being too picky, but in reality....the "shidduch crisis" is really synonymous with flatbush mentality. the reason there are older girls that are single is because the parents are so superficial and care more about what will benefit themselves and how their name will be perceived. you have the boys who will only date girls whose parents have money. why? or a girl who goes to movies, listens to music, wears denim skirts just to the knee, who is she to say no to a guy because he wears jeans?!?!? all of a sudden shes a besser mentch now?? the mothers of these girls won't let them date the boy that is right for them, they are looking for a boy that the neighbors can all look and go wow, not someone that will make their daughter happy. everyone's brilliant resolution of the "crisis" to have younger guys date older girls have clearly never tried redding a shidduch like that.....90% of girl will NOT date a guy who is younger because they are embarrassed and feel it is beneath them.....but gl trying.

46

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:12 AM Miss Williamsburg Says:

Reply to #15  
Oh really! Says:

"... the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so..."

This is also a "reiyeh" that the boys marry YOUNGER GIRLS! because there is a simple question. why does it say "the daughter of so etc " will marry etc..." why not at the birth of a boy the bas kol goes out and says " these boy will marry that girl"?
Answer: Because in MOST CASES WHEN THE BOY IS BORN THE GIRL IS NOT YET LIVE!"

So now these Rabbonim are arguing with an open gemorah!
This must be false!!!

Obviously this is not always the case. I and many of my family and friends have married boys younger than ourselves. I am a few months older than my husband.
So the gemorroh you quoted obviously has different interpretations.
I don't understand why boys have to marry girls 3 years younger than themselves. Why not be the same age? What's wrong with that.
I can tell you that our age has no impact on our marriage whatsoever. The respect that I have for my husband and that he has for me is because of who we are for each other and age doesn't come into play.
For people wondering about such a marriage where the boy is younger. All I can say is age doesn't matter. It is just the same as any other marriage where compromise, mutual respect, love and communication are the key to a healthy and happy marriage.

47

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:11 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #8  
Milhouse Says:

The 60 rabbis, whether real or imaginary, have their arithmetic right, and Weissman has it wrong. This is pretty elementary stuff. In a population that is increasing, each age cohort is bigger than the one before it. KAH there were more children born in 1990 than in 1985, and therefore there were more girls born in 1990 than boys in 1985. And so long as our fertility continues BEH, this trend will also continue indefinitely; there will be more girls born in 2015 than boys in 2010. (Each cohort starts out with slightly more boys than girls, but by the time it reaches shidduch age this gap has disappeared.)

The bigger the average age gap between husbands and wives, the more girls will be left on the shelf. In polygamous societies the typical age gap is particularly pronounced, thus producing enough available girls for older men to take a second wife.

Millie is dead right on this one and Chananya needs to retake Stat 101.

48

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Aryeh Says:

The shidduch crisis is due to one factor and one factor alone: the corruption of the minds of our youth.

1. The unrealistic expectations that serve as population control among the goyim have seeped into our communities via television, internet and even billboards and music and polluted the minds of our children.

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

3. We must first learn to guard our own eyes, hearts and mouths before we can expect our children to have enough sensitivity to be able to marry their zivug, and not treat their first shidduch date as a preparation for a career of coffee and dinners well into their 30's G-d forbid.

4. Keep your children in Boro Park, and stop letting them move to the Upper West Side. Teach them a trade locally, and don't send them to University in Harlem.

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg. ============================================ your right there is no shidduch crissis in the chassidish world but this is a very BIG marriage crisis in the chassidish world to be blamed on forced shidduchim and pre made shidduchim . The reason why you dont hear much about it is because if you speak out about it then the chassidishe velt or shul that you daven in or school that your children go to will shun you and ban you from the community. so before you start spewing your nonsence , do some homework

49

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
FVNMS Says:

My friend was redd (redded?) a shidduch but he said no. I think he's making a mistake, but hey, it's his business. Why did he nix this fine shidduch? He remembers her great-great-nephew from yeshiva and he didn't get along with him. Silly, no?

The fact that your friend is the same age as the great-great nephew of the girl/women redt to him is not a legitimate issue. A little older I can understand, a great great difference is whole nother ball of wax.

50

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

All the rebbeim in yeshiva tells us to learn forever:

"What about parnassah?"
"Don't worry, Chaim'l! You're the best guy! Go to Lakewood and they'll be bidding on you! You'll be set for life!"

THIS is the problem.

51

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM Simple math Says:

Wow!
The math is so simple. But as the saying goes: Don't let the facts get in the way!
Weissman wants to bash the Rabbis and believes the Rabbis are always wrong so who cares about the math, beliefs are more important.
Dogma trumps science in his world! Sounds familiar?
Christians of the dark ages anyone?

52

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
Aryeh Says:

boys marry younger girls so they can have more children. older girls shouldn't expect a 19 year old bochur, but should move to dating divorces, or outside their community or gerim or BT if they don't like older men in their early 40's. people shouldn't try and marry an idea or a concept. "litvish" "chasidish" "syrian" or "modern", but should just marry for the mitzva and with someone who they can get along with. love comes after marriage, and nobody cares who you marry after the sheva brochos.

Aryeh, wash your mouth out with soap for offending and libeling so many Jews in one cockamamie sentence: out-of-town Jews, Baalei Teshuva, Gerim, People over 40, girls over 19. People with your mentality are the reason why so many people find New Yorkers outright offensive.

53

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:36 PM yossie Says:

the crisis is caused by the following:
the yeshivas led by the rosh yeshivas have set up the system for the last 25 years that no education is needed and g-did you work or pursue a degree or occupation before you are married even if it means you smoke and drink coffee allday or do worse in your dorm
therefore all the boys who are of marigable need to marry money as they will either conttinue what they were doing till now or regardless have no way of supporting themselves
untill we stop this idiocy which does not exist byhasidish
and for the most part did not exist in europe the crisis will not end since there are x number of girls with moneyin each class and if the girls with money are grabbed up then the remaining boys will wait for the next crop this is the underlying problem
we have a monster in our midst of everyboy demanding 5-10 years and not every girl wants it or her parents can afford it
so untill we address this problem nothing will change

54

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:26 PM Lawyer Says:

This article is the classic example of what is called "beating up on a straw man." You paint your opponent's position in the most extreme and simplistic terms (i.e. you make him into a straw man) and then you show how clever you are in negating that opnion (beating up on the straw man).

It is foolish to claim that the shidduch crisis can be resolved simply by convincing bochurim to date women who are the same age or older. But certainly encouraging bochurim to consider a broad range of possibilities and not possul a shidduch merely because a woman is not exactly three years younger would have a positive impact in helping the shidduch crisis. IOW, if the boy is 24, why should he completely possul a girl who is also 24 (or even 25 or 26) simply because of age?

I know quite a few situations where the woman was of equal age or even a bit older and they worked out fine.

(Of course, the same can be said for other considerations. Bochurim should be encouraged to look for good middos, yiras shomayim and a stable family life. Money and stunning good looks are much less important -- not to even mention narishkeit like the color of someone's tablecloth.)



55

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:46 PM torahyid Says:

Reply to #15  
Oh really! Says:

"... the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so..."

This is also a "reiyeh" that the boys marry YOUNGER GIRLS! because there is a simple question. why does it say "the daughter of so etc " will marry etc..." why not at the birth of a boy the bas kol goes out and says " these boy will marry that girl"?
Answer: Because in MOST CASES WHEN THE BOY IS BORN THE GIRL IS NOT YET LIVE!"

So now these Rabbonim are arguing with an open gemorah!
This must be false!!!

sure in the time of the gemorah many men used to marry much younger women, but remember many men married more than 1 wife, so they cancelled out each other.

56

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:26 PM professor Says:

There are roughly the same amount of Frum boys as there is girls.However, boys have the luxury of being more picky. Kol Koreh's will not change this. I know an old Chaim Berliner who told me that his rosh hayeshivah (you know who) was disappointed in him for not marrying a youngerwealthier girl. Of course lishaim shamayem.

57

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Simple math Says:

Wow!
The math is so simple. But as the saying goes: Don't let the facts get in the way!
Weissman wants to bash the Rabbis and believes the Rabbis are always wrong so who cares about the math, beliefs are more important.
Dogma trumps science in his world! Sounds familiar?
Christians of the dark ages anyone?

Christians marry for love. They fall in love naturally and then marriage follows. There is no bidding, dowry or family involvement....sound familiar? Bet not.

58

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:46 PM TVT Says:

Of the 56 posts up to now, four people (numbers 45, 50. 53, 56) seemed to have figured out sonmething that eludes most people who talk about the yeshivishe "shidduch crisis" .

That is, if you are going to try to explain why something first became a "crisis" in the last 15 or so years, you need to come up with an explanation that explains what changed in the last 15 or so years.

True, guys generally marry girl afew years younger than them. But hasn't that been the general case forever?

True the frum population cohort is continuously growing k"a, but hasn't that been true since 1945?

Is there any good reason to believe that these factors suddenly became so much worse in the last 15 years.

In addition, the "crisis" has two distinct manifestations 1) More girls remain single longer, and 2) many girls wait months just to get a date.

The second part, cannot be explained by the simple discrepancy between the size of the male and female cohorts.

I do believe that the demographic issue is contributing to the problem, but I think a bigger issue - unique to the last 15 years - is the percentage of boys who come into the parsha intending to learn for a while and therefore focusing on money. There's only so many rich girls to go around and the boys will wait for them while others girls sit around.

Look around. See if the wealthy people you know are having a shidduch "crisis" with their daughters.

59

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:

I think this problem has many different angles which need to be solved. From shaddchanim asking what types of dishes are used to find out if the mother lights shabbos candels in a wig or a covering.
There is also a major problem with parents thinking that children from divorced homes have problems regardless of how amazing the child actually is.
And as a seperate problemthere is also a Gezirah that was intended to last for 1000 years which is now over and the Rabbanim still have not changed back to the way things were probably intended to be.

My main point is that all the people involved in the matching of a boy and girl for marriage should mainly look at the merits of the individual before the family. Especially in todays day and age children are very different from the parents in all aspects.

We need to reform ourselves to look at these situations differently and not look where we can give blame.

60

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:41 PM working in lakewood Says:

reply to #50
youre dead wrong!!its the girls and there parents who are looking for the "long term learners"willing to support them.its about time the girls be honest with themself!!!

61

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:32 PM Not Surprised Says:

Reply to #22  
ShatzMatz Says:

It seems like Mr. Madness got his degree in mathematics from Tuoro College. The fact is that the advise of the Rabbonim are based on demographic models that have been worked out by experts in the field and the logic is sound.

If a large proportion of the oilem would heed this advise it would clean up the current crop of older girls in a decade or so. Afterwards the matter will have to be restudied and perhaps boys will just be encouraged to marry younger to girls of thier own age.

Practically speaking though, only a small percentage of boys will heed this advise. It will help the situation a little bit, but the fact will be that most boys will still marry younger girls. Some girls will marry younger boys and that will help things even out a little thereby alleviating the problem, but not eliminate it.

The main issue that will not be solved by this solution is the simple fact that there are more 'good' girls than there are 'good' boys. This is true of any age group.

By chasidim this is not such a problem because the boys are so young when they marry, and the contact during dating is so limited that the girls don't know the difference, or they set their standards low.

"The main issue that will not be solved by this solution is the simple fact that there are more 'good' girls than there are 'good' boys. This is true of any age group."

I agree. Very true.

62

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Perhaps the Litvishe community should see why there isn't a shidduch crisis in the Chassidishe community. Check out their system and pick up some good points.
For starters, Chassidishe boys, even the biggest masmidim, get married at a young age. It's approximately the same age as the girls they are marrying. Lately their appears to be a trend of boys marrying girls a year or two older. When this happens, nobody blinks twice.
Secondly, it's not a chassidishe minhag for a masmid to ask for full support from the girls parents. It's usually 50/50. Their are exceptions but it's not accepted as the proper thing to do.
Thirdly, chassidishe boys respect there wives enough to realize when the kollel arrangement isn't working out and proceed to help with the parnassa. Their rosh yeshivos don't instill in them a sense of gaiva and entitlement because they are masmidim. Hashem accepts the Torah of men who are koveah ittim as much as those that sit in kollel while their wives, in laws and parents do back breaking work to support him.

Can I imagine the litvishe community learning anything from Chasidim. Well, miracles do happen.

63

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
kupshtik Says:

Actually the chasidishe world has an opposite problem more available boys than girls. My theorý is that many girls from chasidishe families prefer litvish boys. Every chasidishe girl that marries a litvish boy creates a problem for chasidishe boys and litvishe girls. I am wondering if anybody agrees.

FWIW: All three girls of a Stoliner family I know of mine married Litvishe and their brother married also married Litvishe (while remaining Hassidic).

64

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:01 PM DP Says:

Skilled writer! Intelligent thinker! Likely notable intentions! Most worthy & important issue! BUT!!!!

This kind of effort to undermine and attack our esteemed, righteous and praiseworthy rabbanim will doubtfully lead to any progress. The writer quotes lofty concepts such as the chazal "Arboyim yom kodem havalad". What about the Chazal's that teach Emunas Tzadikim & Chachamim? Conventional logic and seemingly common sense don't always dictate or solicit the relevant and appropriate response. The Navi tells us "Lo machshevosai machshevosechem". Although it is proper and encouraged to use our intellect, we must follow in the ways of our fathers whom attached much importance to simple emunas chachamim and belief in their rabbanim are filled with Torah logic and Torah common sense, and are saturated siyatta dishmaya and holiness. Chazal teach us that Hashem is "mezaveg z'vugim kol hayom", we have to be fools to believe that we have all the answers to the "shidduch crisis". Of course we need to be mishtadul to some extent, but not without the guidance of our rabbanim. While the writers ideas should be considered (because he has given time to thus subject) it's obvious from his tone that he has no respect for our rabbis in general because it would have been wiser and more productive for him to try to have a respectful dialog with some of them so his expertise and ideas would be influential in helping them form their opinions. It is obvious prejudice and contempt for these type of rabbis that precludes him from doing that. This kind of approach in leading the masses to disrespect our leaders and to disapprove of their actions (using billams donkey, and the rabbis in the next sentence) will certainly yield no siyatta dishmaya or positive results.

65

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:

The Gedolim letter misses an important point. In the long run the solution is to marry boys earlier, when they are 20 not 22-24. If boys continue to get married when they are 22, they will have a full range of girls available to them including the ones that are 18. Naturally many will still take the younger ones. The problem will not go away untill the age that boys start dating = the age that girls start dating. That can only be accomplished by getting the boys to get into shidduchim earlier.

66

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:56 PM Use Your Head Says:

Reply to #55  
torahyid Says:

sure in the time of the gemorah many men used to marry much younger women, but remember many men married more than 1 wife, so they cancelled out each other.

Jewish polygamy was common during the Talmudic times? What is your evidence?

67

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:

The problem is not with these made up statistics, the problem is with pickiness.

68

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:27 PM Use Your Head Says:

Obviously this writer failed in math! He seems to be missing the basic concept. This has little to do with the fact that there are more female then men! It is simply that we have 4 years of boys who are not in Shiduchim, while their female counterparts are. Imagine that all boys that are now 18 will get into shiduchim? We will have potentially 1000's of shiduchim. The next year will not lose, as the same amount of both boys & girls will enter the scene. With the growing population, the disportion gets larger & larger.
This is no Ponzi but simple math, but the simple man who knows no math, likes to make noise.

I wish people would use there heads before writing things that don"t make sense!

69

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:27 PM NO CRISES Says:

there is NO crises! all good smart pretty girls get married first because they are more desired, this is the rule of evolution and survival of the fittest . and a GOOD thing

70

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Milhouse Says:

The 60 rabbis, whether real or imaginary, have their arithmetic right, and Weissman has it wrong. This is pretty elementary stuff. In a population that is increasing, each age cohort is bigger than the one before it. KAH there were more children born in 1990 than in 1985, and therefore there were more girls born in 1990 than boys in 1985. And so long as our fertility continues BEH, this trend will also continue indefinitely; there will be more girls born in 2015 than boys in 2010. (Each cohort starts out with slightly more boys than girls, but by the time it reaches shidduch age this gap has disappeared.)

The bigger the average age gap between husbands and wives, the more girls will be left on the shelf. In polygamous societies the typical age gap is particularly pronounced, thus producing enough available girls for older men to take a second wife.

Ridiculous, next Milhouse will recommend getting a pilegish.

71

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:35 PM gregaaron Says:

Reply to #60  
working in lakewood Says:

reply to #50
youre dead wrong!!its the girls and there parents who are looking for the "long term learners"willing to support them.its about time the girls be honest with themself!!!

No, actually, he hit it right on the head. Not everyone ends up in those Yeshivos - or "shtells tzu" to that derech (for lack of a better word) - but there definitely are many Rebbeim who are encouraging their talmidim to do just that.

72

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:35 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #35  
Use Your Head Says:

Historically, it was clearly considered normal for a husband to be older (sometimes significantly) than his wife. Just check the Torah! All of the Avos, for example.... In general, 12-13 was considered the normal age of marriage for a girl, while men were encouraged to marry by 18 (with 13 being "min hamuvchor" but clearly not the norm). However, eis la'asos La'shem - if there is a crisis, we need to solve it.

In friedicke yahren, paricularly in Eastern European shtetlach as late as the mid to late 19th century of the Common Era, husbands were almost always older than their wives and often a lot older. This was because female life expectancy, before the availablity of modern Western medicine, was considerably shorter than male life expectancy. Girls needed to be wed young so that they could raise a family as early as possible. Also, since many women died in childbirth or from childbirth related causes that is was not unusual for a man to have two or even three wives in his lifetime. It is only since the developement of sterile childbirth practices and the discovery of antibiotics that female life expectancy has equaled and exceeded that of men.

73

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:34 PM FVNMS is offended :( Says:

Reply to #58  
TVT Says:

Of the 56 posts up to now, four people (numbers 45, 50. 53, 56) seemed to have figured out sonmething that eludes most people who talk about the yeshivishe "shidduch crisis" .

That is, if you are going to try to explain why something first became a "crisis" in the last 15 or so years, you need to come up with an explanation that explains what changed in the last 15 or so years.

True, guys generally marry girl afew years younger than them. But hasn't that been the general case forever?

True the frum population cohort is continuously growing k"a, but hasn't that been true since 1945?

Is there any good reason to believe that these factors suddenly became so much worse in the last 15 years.

In addition, the "crisis" has two distinct manifestations 1) More girls remain single longer, and 2) many girls wait months just to get a date.

The second part, cannot be explained by the simple discrepancy between the size of the male and female cohorts.

I do believe that the demographic issue is contributing to the problem, but I think a bigger issue - unique to the last 15 years - is the percentage of boys who come into the parsha intending to learn for a while and therefore focusing on money. There's only so many rich girls to go around and the boys will wait for them while others girls sit around.

Look around. See if the wealthy people you know are having a shidduch "crisis" with their daughters.

You impressed me with your cultivated, academic presentation. But your last statement disappointed me. Many wealthy people have problems finding shidduchim for their kids.

I want to point something out to everybody. Its a "Price of Tea" point, to be sure, but hey I have A.D.D so indulge me... It freaks me out when people marginalize those who BH have money. Like, there's us regular people and there's THEM. Can you imagine being scrutinized, judged and obviously envied by people who you love and you think love you (i.e. friends, nieghbors, relatives)? Not everybody who appears to have money has it and vice versa. Stop counting everybody else's money. Rich people have the same problems as you. They drive their BMW's and Lexuses (Lexi?) to the same levayos, hospitals, etc as you do. They want the same things out of life that you do. They don't love their kids any less than you do. And if you have problems chas vshalom many of them (in equal proportion to the non-wealthy population) are there to help you.

Kin'a sin'a.

74

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
TVT Says:

Of the 56 posts up to now, four people (numbers 45, 50. 53, 56) seemed to have figured out sonmething that eludes most people who talk about the yeshivishe "shidduch crisis" .

That is, if you are going to try to explain why something first became a "crisis" in the last 15 or so years, you need to come up with an explanation that explains what changed in the last 15 or so years.

True, guys generally marry girl afew years younger than them. But hasn't that been the general case forever?

True the frum population cohort is continuously growing k"a, but hasn't that been true since 1945?

Is there any good reason to believe that these factors suddenly became so much worse in the last 15 years.

In addition, the "crisis" has two distinct manifestations 1) More girls remain single longer, and 2) many girls wait months just to get a date.

The second part, cannot be explained by the simple discrepancy between the size of the male and female cohorts.

I do believe that the demographic issue is contributing to the problem, but I think a bigger issue - unique to the last 15 years - is the percentage of boys who come into the parsha intending to learn for a while and therefore focusing on money. There's only so many rich girls to go around and the boys will wait for them while others girls sit around.

Look around. See if the wealthy people you know are having a shidduch "crisis" with their daughters.

You have a point. bit I think the explanation is that in thge past 15 yrs the gender gap has widened, thus creating a greater problem.

75

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Milhouse Says:

The 60 rabbis, whether real or imaginary, have their arithmetic right, and Weissman has it wrong. This is pretty elementary stuff. In a population that is increasing, each age cohort is bigger than the one before it. KAH there were more children born in 1990 than in 1985, and therefore there were more girls born in 1990 than boys in 1985. And so long as our fertility continues BEH, this trend will also continue indefinitely; there will be more girls born in 2015 than boys in 2010. (Each cohort starts out with slightly more boys than girls, but by the time it reaches shidduch age this gap has disappeared.)

The bigger the average age gap between husbands and wives, the more girls will be left on the shelf. In polygamous societies the typical age gap is particularly pronounced, thus producing enough available girls for older men to take a second wife.

No, the problem is not a pool of too many girls. The problem is a pool of too few rich in-laws!

76

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:22 PM Anonymous Says:

The crisis starts and ends with the litvishe boys wanting to be bought. I would tell you some of the questions I get asked by boys' mothers but I can't even repeat it.

77

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:16 PM Anonymous Says:

These same Rabbonim are actually one of the main causes of the shidduch crises, by their encouraging yungerleit to marry rich girls who can support their endless learning. The rich girls are getting married, it's the poor ones that aren't.

78

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Oh please, we do have to use our brains and do our hishtadlus. The frum community grow rapidly, KA"H. Therefore, there are more 18-year-olds than there are 22 year olds. It's simple logic and math. So if you have 10,000 22-year-old boys looking to marry from a pool of 12,000 18-year-old girls - well, use the brain Hashem gave you. 2,000 girls are left without a shidduch.

79

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:27 PM Bracha Says:

Instead of debating all of the potiential reasons and putting blame on each other, should we not be trying to set people up. Help an older single meet their beshert. Do something, take action. Make a list of all the single people you know, look at them and see if you can set them up. So we can discuss something else beside shidduch crisis.

80

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:13 PM Jake Says:

I think one of the reasons are that more boys going off the derech, i mean look in some grades 20 out of a hundred go off, thats 20%

81

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:53 PM The Truth Says:

Reply to #44  
Everyone has their pet peeve Says:

I am convinced that the Shidduch crisis is only very partially due to the age gap situation.

Regarding there being a problem by Chassidim with the boys and by the Yeshivishe with the girls, maybe some Chassidishe boys and Yeshivishe girls should consider marrying each other. I did it and Boruch Hashem my marriage is amazing.

I am convinced that the Shidduch crisis has more to do with the amount of girls that say they want a learning guy, compared to the amount of true learning guys available. This has also made Shiduchim into a cattle market with those that pay the most getting the hogs.

You understand it better than most. Both here and in reality.
The age gap is only very partially to blame for the crisis.
Although the author of the article does have an axe to grind about the whole system and shidduchim.

#13 FVNMS also has good grip on reality like it is.

Like many, I personally feel the crisis has more to do with the inconsistencies of people with reality. Everyone wants everything beyond perfect - especially extreme gashmius & unlimited money. The Rabbonim should address this (partial?) cause of the crisis, not just the symptoms (older singles).

Girls want the "learning guy" but with all the trimmings of a lavish lifestyle.
Guys want to be a "learning guy" and be supported by the rich schver but not actually be a masmid.

I know many single boys: litvish, yeshivish, modern and chassidish - all still looking for their Miss Perfect Bashert.
People are just too picky. I would not suggest many of these guys as I know no one will meet their meshugana requirements and they will not / do not meet the high standards that they think they are on.

Its funny how its called a "shidduch" crisis. That the "Shidduch" is in a crisis but the people are all beyond perfect.

82

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:07 PM איפכא מסתברא Says:

Reply to #15  
Oh really! Says:

"... the Gemara at the beginning of Sotah famously teaches that 40 days before birth a heavenly voice declares the daughter of so-and-so will marry the son of so-and-so..."

This is also a "reiyeh" that the boys marry YOUNGER GIRLS! because there is a simple question. why does it say "the daughter of so etc " will marry etc..." why not at the birth of a boy the bas kol goes out and says " these boy will marry that girl"?
Answer: Because in MOST CASES WHEN THE BOY IS BORN THE GIRL IS NOT YET LIVE!"

So now these Rabbonim are arguing with an open gemorah!
This must be false!!!

One can easily claim that the gemarah shows you should marry an older woman. Because "Bas Ploni l'plonie (the child in question)" implies that bas ploni has been born already. If she has not been born, a. who says she will be born in the future? b. who said the other guy will have any more kids? c. who said he'll have a daughter? (the gemara says ish mazriah techillah... so what gender you will have is based on you to an extent)

Anyways, don't be so quick to say people who have spent their lives learning go against a gemara. They've been doing this for a while.

83

 Oct 21, 2009 at 02:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
NO CRISES Says:

there is NO crises! all good smart pretty girls get married first because they are more desired, this is the rule of evolution and survival of the fittest . and a GOOD thing

Your comment is crass and cruel, may Hashem forgive you for your insensitive comments.

84

 Oct 21, 2009 at 01:09 PM yossie Says:

sorry for the grammar before my computer was freezing
as i said
if every boy in lakewood and other similar institutions insist on learning for 5 years minimum with no plan then all girls who are not interested in having a husband with no plan with 5 children are knocked out of the box as well as all fathers who cannot support then these girls are also not looked at
this chinuch has destroyed a generation and fostered lazyness no one wants to work for a living just doing deals screwing banks credit card companies etc all while being in kollel driving a brand new leased car and pushing a bugaboo

85

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:10 PM Anonymous Says:

what happened to you will meet your bashert? if it's all from Hashem than we dont have to worry and there is no crisis.

86

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:45 PM TVT Says:

Reply to #73  
FVNMS is offended :( Says:

You impressed me with your cultivated, academic presentation. But your last statement disappointed me. Many wealthy people have problems finding shidduchim for their kids.

I want to point something out to everybody. Its a "Price of Tea" point, to be sure, but hey I have A.D.D so indulge me... It freaks me out when people marginalize those who BH have money. Like, there's us regular people and there's THEM. Can you imagine being scrutinized, judged and obviously envied by people who you love and you think love you (i.e. friends, nieghbors, relatives)? Not everybody who appears to have money has it and vice versa. Stop counting everybody else's money. Rich people have the same problems as you. They drive their BMW's and Lexuses (Lexi?) to the same levayos, hospitals, etc as you do. They want the same things out of life that you do. They don't love their kids any less than you do. And if you have problems chas vshalom many of them (in equal proportion to the non-wealthy population) are there to help you.

Kin'a sin'a.

...and one other thing. Of course difficulty with shidduchim is something faced by all, rich poor, and everyone in between. Kasha K'krias Yam Suf.

But again, that's with regard to making an actual zivug. The first step however, is getting a date and among the yeshivishe oilam afflicted by this "crisis", the wealthy girls get them more regularly. I invite the single female readers to correct me if I'm wrong.

87

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:37 PM FVNMS Says:

Wanna know what a crisis is? People want to kill us. All of us. Thats a crisis. Shidduchim crisis? Get over yourselves people.

88

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:58 PM ridiculous Says:

OK... whatever about the article. I just want to say that if a rabbi says your left hand is your right and your right is your left, the Torah says you have to listen to him.

89

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:35 PM TVT Says:

Reply to #73  
FVNMS is offended :( Says:

You impressed me with your cultivated, academic presentation. But your last statement disappointed me. Many wealthy people have problems finding shidduchim for their kids.

I want to point something out to everybody. Its a "Price of Tea" point, to be sure, but hey I have A.D.D so indulge me... It freaks me out when people marginalize those who BH have money. Like, there's us regular people and there's THEM. Can you imagine being scrutinized, judged and obviously envied by people who you love and you think love you (i.e. friends, nieghbors, relatives)? Not everybody who appears to have money has it and vice versa. Stop counting everybody else's money. Rich people have the same problems as you. They drive their BMW's and Lexuses (Lexi?) to the same levayos, hospitals, etc as you do. They want the same things out of life that you do. They don't love their kids any less than you do. And if you have problems chas vshalom many of them (in equal proportion to the non-wealthy population) are there to help you.

Kin'a sin'a.

I apologize for offending you (...and I hope your're being properly medicated for your ADD.) Seriously, I probably could have made my point without that last sentence. However, it's not a question of kin'a and counting other people's money. Let's face it, we all know who the obvious g'virim amongst us are, and the simple fact is that, for the most part (obviously their are always exceptions), their daughters do NOT sit around waiting for dates. I point this out, not becasue I don't faghin them their money. Spend it gezunteheit. I'm just trying to bolster my point about what I believe is the primary contributing factor to why we have a "crisis". By all means let the chachomim and nevonim sort out what is right and wrong and what the proper solutions are. But the starting point needs to be an accurate identification of the problem. If the overwhelming majority of our sons are going to want to be supported and the overwhelming majority of our daughters want such boys, then all but the wealthiest of those girls are going to sit around waiting for dates. It's just the way it is.

90

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:34 PM bashi Says:

I think its because many kids dont see a point to get married when so many are playing around with the opposite gender. This is the real problem. I am not guessing, I see it every day in the lives of many of my friends...

91

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
Anonymous Says:

The Gedolim letter misses an important point. In the long run the solution is to marry boys earlier, when they are 20 not 22-24. If boys continue to get married when they are 22, they will have a full range of girls available to them including the ones that are 18. Naturally many will still take the younger ones. The problem will not go away untill the age that boys start dating = the age that girls start dating. That can only be accomplished by getting the boys to get into shidduchim earlier.

Or, even better, getting girls into shidduchim later. It wouldn't hurt for the girls to become a little more mature before jumping into marriage.

92

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Bracha Says:

Instead of debating all of the potiential reasons and putting blame on each other, should we not be trying to set people up. Help an older single meet their beshert. Do something, take action. Make a list of all the single people you know, look at them and see if you can set them up. So we can discuss something else beside shidduch crisis.

Plenty of people are trying to help.

93

 Oct 21, 2009 at 03:19 PM redd a shidduch Says:

how about we all stop writing and postulating - and REDD A SHIDDUCH - whatever the crisis - whatever the opinion - the shidduch can't get made if somebody doesn't TRY IT!

94

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Boys are encouraged to seek out girls with money so that they can sit and learn. I personally am involved in shidduchim and boys mothers have said to me that if they can't support fully and can't give an amount that they are not interested!! It is true that most boys seek out younger girls. A 25 year old wants the 18- and 19- the 23 year old is too old!!!!!! - hence the problem. The boys ought to realize tht marring a girl closer to their age may give them companionship later in life.

95

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says:

lets be realistic 18-20 year old girls are not marrying 18 -20 year old boys. the girls may be ready and mature but the boys are still babies who still want to enjoy life while they can.
according to the takonos parents shouldn't allow their daughters to marry until they are 21 unless they want their daughters to marry babies. automatically girls parents have to look for older boys who are somewhat mature to take care of their daughters.
Today's yeshiva boys are spoon fed and lack any sense of resposibilities and cannot be expected to get married at a young age.
We end up with the new phenomenon taking place- babies having babies and the instant divorce. I currently know 6 couples who have been married less than 2 years getting divorced. All either have babies already or are pregnant and are still getting divorced. something is wrong with our society

96

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:53 PM a rabbi Says:

A big part of the shidduch crisis is being caused by rebbes and morahs telling their students in bais medrash and seminaries what types of boys and girls to marry or to avoid.
These clueless M’chachin have no statistics on the types of boys and girls which exist in any particular category, and are causing havoc in the shidduch arena.

The solution is for the M’chachin to cease giving marriage advice altogether.

97

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:24 PM A Says:

Reply to #46  
Miss Williamsburg Says:

Obviously this is not always the case. I and many of my family and friends have married boys younger than ourselves. I am a few months older than my husband.
So the gemorroh you quoted obviously has different interpretations.
I don't understand why boys have to marry girls 3 years younger than themselves. Why not be the same age? What's wrong with that.
I can tell you that our age has no impact on our marriage whatsoever. The respect that I have for my husband and that he has for me is because of who we are for each other and age doesn't come into play.
For people wondering about such a marriage where the boy is younger. All I can say is age doesn't matter. It is just the same as any other marriage where compromise, mutual respect, love and communication are the key to a healthy and happy marriage.

The fact that you are a couple of months older than your husband does not put you in the 'older woman/younger man' category. A few months age difference is negligible.

98

 Oct 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
Aryeh Says:

boys marry younger girls so they can have more children. older girls shouldn't expect a 19 year old bochur, but should move to dating divorces, or outside their community or gerim or BT if they don't like older men in their early 40's. people shouldn't try and marry an idea or a concept. "litvish" "chasidish" "syrian" or "modern", but should just marry for the mitzva and with someone who they can get along with. love comes after marriage, and nobody cares who you marry after the sheva brochos.

My aunt got married at 30 and she has 9 children kh

99

 Oct 21, 2009 at 04:46 PM Use Your Head Says:

The "shidduch crisis" is really merely a symptom of what we, as well as the rest of the world, are experiencing - an ego crisis. We have grown so full of ourselves and self-centered that all human interactions are becoming problematic.

100

 Oct 21, 2009 at 04:39 PM yossie Says:

Reply to #91  
Anonymous Says:

Or, even better, getting girls into shidduchim later. It wouldn't hurt for the girls to become a little more mature before jumping into marriage.

are you out of your mind -the girls should be moreter mature?
most like my daughter are out of seminary holding down a job and going for some kind of a degree so that they can support the guy whos sitting and trying to figure out for a whole zman why the rashba didnt learn like the ritva
give me a break about whose mature
these boys dont know what it means to have a schedule or a deadline the problem with most bais medrash and kollel- accountability
if you dont finish the daf today there is allways next week, m0nth or year the boys can learn some maturity from the girls

101

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
TVT Says:

Of the 56 posts up to now, four people (numbers 45, 50. 53, 56) seemed to have figured out sonmething that eludes most people who talk about the yeshivishe "shidduch crisis" .

That is, if you are going to try to explain why something first became a "crisis" in the last 15 or so years, you need to come up with an explanation that explains what changed in the last 15 or so years.

True, guys generally marry girl afew years younger than them. But hasn't that been the general case forever?

True the frum population cohort is continuously growing k"a, but hasn't that been true since 1945?

Is there any good reason to believe that these factors suddenly became so much worse in the last 15 years.

In addition, the "crisis" has two distinct manifestations 1) More girls remain single longer, and 2) many girls wait months just to get a date.

The second part, cannot be explained by the simple discrepancy between the size of the male and female cohorts.

I do believe that the demographic issue is contributing to the problem, but I think a bigger issue - unique to the last 15 years - is the percentage of boys who come into the parsha intending to learn for a while and therefore focusing on money. There's only so many rich girls to go around and the boys will wait for them while others girls sit around.

Look around. See if the wealthy people you know are having a shidduch "crisis" with their daughters.

For what it's worth, I have Ph.D. in mathematics. I was not consulted by the rabbonim, but I agree with the reasoning.

It's not exactly 15 years, but an explanation I've seen for the recent rise of the shidduch crisis is that women used to die in childbirth, lo aleinu, much more frequently, which evened out the numbers. The women who didn't get married at 18 could find a widower at 19. I believe it was in the late 1970s/early 1980s that maternal mortality rates in developed countries stabilized to their current rates (http://www.deathreference.com/Me-Nu/Mortality-Childbirth.html). It would have taken some time before the number of older single girls became significant enough for people to recognize that there was a "crisis", and that it wasn't just a few isolated cases of girls who were presumed not particularly desirable for some reason or another.

As for your second manifestation of the crisis, the fact that there are more girls available than boys does, in fact, explain why it takes longer for a girl to get a date, assuming a boy doesn't consider more than one girl at a time, and potentially goes out with one girl several times over the course of a few weeks or months before moving on.

Yes, there are other factors at play, which explain why certain girls (e.g. the rich ones) are the first to find a shidduch, while others may be struggling to even get a date, but this is a side effect of the fact that the boys can get away with being particular because they have so many options.

102

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:19 PM Lawyer Says:

Reply to #97  
A Says:

The fact that you are a couple of months older than your husband does not put you in the 'older woman/younger man' category. A few months age difference is negligible.

In truth you are correct, but that is not the attitude of many bochrim. If the girl is not at least 3-4 years younger, they will not even hear of it.

103

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:16 PM alanjayros@aol.com Says:

I think we are all missing the point in this Shidduch crises. If there are 100,000 girls B'AH in column A and 99,000 Boys B'AH pn column B, there is a Shidduch crises. You match girls from column A to boys in column B, you will still have 1,000 girls with NO shidduch.It doesnt matter is you match older or younger, there are a few less boys than girls. THAT'S WHY, WHEN GIRLS COME HOME FROM SEMINARY, THERE IS A BIG RUSH TO GET THEM MARRIED OFF. This will bring the next crises of DIVORCE crises. It's here already.Girls were in a rush and didn't marry the proper shidduch.

104

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:02 PM Michaltastik Says:

Reply to #21  
Shadchan Says:

This anonymous coward that wrote this letter slandering the biggest gedolei torah the world has today, should do his research before bringing down the entire moetzes. You obviosly have never had an older girl in the parsha as can be seen from your lack of sensitivity towards people who are unimaginably hurting. You bring the concept of basherte and bas kol yotze vomeres bas ploni lploni to validate you, but the gemarah also speaks very strongly about the idea of "chapping" a woman before someone else 'Shema ykadmenu acher" we see that although everything is basherte the is still a very strong concept of Hishtadlus. Yes, there definitly is a crisis, NASI Program led by Moshe P. has done extensive research in the field, speaking to mathmeticians all across the US, and they have all pointed to this theory. You are right chassidim dont have a crisis because many times boys are marrying girls older than them. The person obviously has a lot of built up rage against gedolim, but please not at the expense of our suffering older singles

Not anonymous-look again. This is written by Chananya Weissman from End The Madness. Someone mentioned that his solution to the problem is co-ed singles events. The problem with that is obvious. The men in these events are looking for something other than marriage. Well, they figure a guy can hope. Also, I believe Chananya is himself single but, I don't know for sure.

105

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:01 PM mother of boys Says:

Personally I feel that if a boy is going to marry at a young age, the girl should be older, not necessarily than him, but on the older side; say 22 or 23 as opposed to 19 or 20. These young women usually have had some career training and are ready emotionally for marriage and children.

106

 Oct 21, 2009 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #87  
FVNMS Says:

Wanna know what a crisis is? People want to kill us. All of us. Thats a crisis. Shidduchim crisis? Get over yourselves people.

No. When C"V people are not getting married and not making more of the Bayis Ne'eman B'Yisroel, that IS a crisis.

If you're saying this because all of your children are married, be very careful with what comes out of your mouth.

Hashem treats Jews, Middah K'Neged Middah, measure for measure. Because of your nasty words, Hashem may cause a descendant of yours to have a hard time getting married or C"V not get married at all.

107

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #100  
yossie Says:

are you out of your mind -the girls should be moreter mature?
most like my daughter are out of seminary holding down a job and going for some kind of a degree so that they can support the guy whos sitting and trying to figure out for a whole zman why the rashba didnt learn like the ritva
give me a break about whose mature
these boys dont know what it means to have a schedule or a deadline the problem with most bais medrash and kollel- accountability
if you dont finish the daf today there is allways next week, m0nth or year the boys can learn some maturity from the girls

You either didn't understand what I meant or you didn't understand what I meant.
I was talking about the proliferation of 18 year old girls jumping into marriage..... and 18 does appear to be the age of choice for marriage these days. There's certainly no harm in waiting until at least 20 or 21 to even consider getting married.
I applaud your daughter looking to get a degree in order to get a higher paying job, I'm sorry that it's because she expects to be the main or sole earner in her future married life. What's wrong with looking at someone who earns a living and learns in his free time?
BTW, thanks for the laugh at your example (guy who's trying to figure out why the rashba didn't learn like the ritva). If you don't mind I'm going to gank it for use in the future.

108

 Oct 21, 2009 at 04:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
NO CRISES Says:

there is NO crises! all good smart pretty girls get married first because they are more desired, this is the rule of evolution and survival of the fittest . and a GOOD thing

This is disgusting. Feh! So what are you saying? That if a girl is a good, erlich, kind Bas Yisroel with good Middos but doesn't look like a model, that C"V she can't get married? You sound like a haughty Baal Gaavah whose daughters all got married.

What does "the rule of evolution and survival of the fittest" have to do with getting married? It's a Mitzvah for all Jews!

Be careful with what comes out of your mouth. Hashem treats Jews, Middah K'Neged Middah, measure for measure. Because of your nasty words, Hashem may cause a descendant of yours to have a hard time getting married or C"V not get married at all.

109

 Oct 21, 2009 at 04:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #90  
bashi Says:

I think its because many kids dont see a point to get married when so many are playing around with the opposite gender. This is the real problem. I am not guessing, I see it every day in the lives of many of my friends...

The people that this article is referring to are not as you suggest "playing around with the opposite gender."

110

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:47 PM Michaltastik Says:

Reply to #90  
bashi Says:

I think its because many kids dont see a point to get married when so many are playing around with the opposite gender. This is the real problem. I am not guessing, I see it every day in the lives of many of my friends...

bashi Says:Says:
“ I think its because many kids dont see a point to get married when so many are playing around with the opposite gender. This is the real problem. I am not guessing, I see it every day in the lives of many of my friends...”


This is SOOOOOOOO true. Also, why pay bills when you can live with your parents?

Incidentally, I am a convert and thus from the goyisha world. While I am not married, I would say that most of my friends from college are. The way it's done on the other side is that people meet someone in college and most people get married right after they get their bachelor's. Sometimes, the guy is a grade older but, this does keep people close to the same age. I think sometimes that gentiles get married more than Jews.

111

 Oct 21, 2009 at 05:34 PM gregaaron Says:

Reply to #96  
a rabbi Says:

A big part of the shidduch crisis is being caused by rebbes and morahs telling their students in bais medrash and seminaries what types of boys and girls to marry or to avoid.
These clueless M’chachin have no statistics on the types of boys and girls which exist in any particular category, and are causing havoc in the shidduch arena.

The solution is for the M’chachin to cease giving marriage advice altogether.

You are obviously not in the Parsha...for many boys, their Rebbeim are exactly the ones who get them through this stage in life, and give them the advice and Torah outlook needed to choose the person who will IY"H be their partner for the rest of their lives. The girls who are lucky enough to continue to have a kesher with their teachers from seminary value this as well.

If they would stop giving marriage advice, the divorce rate would skyrocket...if these boys were ever able to take the plunge in the first place.

112

 Oct 21, 2009 at 04:11 PM 21dater Says:

any comment up there that says boys should start dating earlier so as to match up with the girls clearly has single daughters at home...no mother of a boy EVER says that. Again this isn't the guys fault bec. hes not rushing to get married when hes 19 its your daughters that should not be dating when theyre 19 they should be waiting till at least 21 and give them time to figure themselves out. everyone is so busy looking for that perfect shidduch for their child but fail to realize that their child is far from perfect. guys are busy looking for girls whose in laws will support them and the girls are looking for guys who can dress the part. learning isnt important...davening with a minyan isnt important....but if he wears a white shirt and dress pants....than its ok. all these girl looking for good boys are busy running around with skirts that just reach the knee so when they walk it comes up...oh wait....halacha....not important when it pertains to them..but chas vshalom to DATE a guy who doesnt dress his part.....the simple answer is if your child is old enough to get married....he/she does NOT need his/her mommy to say yes or no....otherwise they may as well get married and move back into your house. people need to stop focusing on the exteriors and start looking for someone that is on the same level as them, not what the neighbors think she should be dating.

113

 Oct 21, 2009 at 06:13 PM Miss Williamsburg Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg. ============================================ your right there is no shidduch crissis in the chassidish world but this is a very BIG marriage crisis in the chassidish world to be blamed on forced shidduchim and pre made shidduchim . The reason why you dont hear much about it is because if you speak out about it then the chassidishe velt or shul that you daven in or school that your children go to will shun you and ban you from the community. so before you start spewing your nonsence , do some homework

To #48. There is not Marriage crisis in Williamsburg more than anywhere else. There are no forced shidduchim as you put it. The boys and girls get the last word if they want the shidduch or not. About pre made shidduchim. Guess what!! All shidduchim are pre-made. It's only the way we go about meeting them that is differenent.
While you may go out for 2 weeks or 6 months or live together depending on the spectrum of Judaism you consign to, or we meet two times for an hour each doesn't make a difference. A shidduch is bashert.
And unfortunately there are many more divorces than we'd like to know about. Nobody gets shunned and banned from the community. That is so ridiculous to say and absurd. Divorcees are treated the same way as in the Yeshivish community and as for people staying together in unhappy marriages, it is usually for the children, and such marriages you'll find in all different communities.

Your quote in your post: "so before you start spewing your nonsense, do some homework" applies very well to you.

114

 Oct 21, 2009 at 06:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
Anonymous Says:

This is disgusting. Feh! So what are you saying? That if a girl is a good, erlich, kind Bas Yisroel with good Middos but doesn't look like a model, that C"V she can't get married? You sound like a haughty Baal Gaavah whose daughters all got married.

What does "the rule of evolution and survival of the fittest" have to do with getting married? It's a Mitzvah for all Jews!

Be careful with what comes out of your mouth. Hashem treats Jews, Middah K'Neged Middah, measure for measure. Because of your nasty words, Hashem may cause a descendant of yours to have a hard time getting married or C"V not get married at all.

also you must be careful of what comes out of YOUR mouth!! what a chutzpa to suggest what hashem "may" do to this person's descendants.

as for the "shidduch crisis," part of it is because boys think anything over size 6 is "fat."

115

 Oct 21, 2009 at 06:19 PM Miss Williamsburg Says:

Reply to #97  
A Says:

The fact that you are a couple of months older than your husband does not put you in the 'older woman/younger man' category. A few months age difference is negligible.

I certainly agree with you. But I don't think the Litvishe world they would consider it negligible. When boys don't even consider girls the same age as them, anything older than them would definitely seem like an out of the box thing to do.

116

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Aryeh Says:

The shidduch crisis is due to one factor and one factor alone: the corruption of the minds of our youth.

1. The unrealistic expectations that serve as population control among the goyim have seeped into our communities via television, internet and even billboards and music and polluted the minds of our children.

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

3. We must first learn to guard our own eyes, hearts and mouths before we can expect our children to have enough sensitivity to be able to marry their zivug, and not treat their first shidduch date as a preparation for a career of coffee and dinners well into their 30's G-d forbid.

4. Keep your children in Boro Park, and stop letting them move to the Upper West Side. Teach them a trade locally, and don't send them to University in Harlem.

Hello, you obviously have your facts wrong. In Williamsburg too, the crisis exists. There are 2,000 eligible girls above 22.

117

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:00 PM Truth Says:

I'm not going into the debate whether boys should marry older girls, but how about women marrying older men? I know plenty of men in their 40's who aren't married. If the women would marry them then you wouldn't need boys to marry the older girls. And the lame excuse that if they are 40 or above they must be mentally ill doesn't hold water. First of all, just because you didn't get married doesn't mean you are ill and even if you are -nowadays most psychological problems can be cured or controlled.

118

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

2. Until we realize that to remain apart is to survive, this will only get worse R"LS. There is no shidduch crisis in Williamsburg.

Says who? Williamsburg has the same crisis [preceived or not] as in other neighborhoods, the notion that everyone in Williamsburg get engaged/married at 18 is erroneous.

sure there are a lot of people that aren't married in the chasiddesh world as well and as the community grows the more there are as with any pro. this said it's no comparison to the litvish not to say the modern ortho world as well there is not davka a girl crisis rather both or more boys .

119

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:41 PM Anonymous Says:

As a shadchan for the last 10 years, demographics aside --- it's the attitude on the part of the men that there's always another group of girls who will graduate seminary that lulls them against focusing on the girls they are presently dating. I abhor the ageism, but it's most toxic effect is when it prevents men from taking seriously appropriate prospects, always because there's got to be something better out there...I take issue with this article -- any number of demographic studies have proven there's a gender disparity.

If nothing else, there's a whole generation of guys in their 30s and 40s who are convinced they are all going to marry their perfect 22 year old mate -- and it doesn't matter that there isn't a 22 year old out there who will date them...or that none of them seem to realize that they actually don't have very much in common with someone that much younger than them...that is the root of the pathology here...

120

 Oct 21, 2009 at 08:31 PM TVT Says:

Reply to #101  
Anonymous Says:

For what it's worth, I have Ph.D. in mathematics. I was not consulted by the rabbonim, but I agree with the reasoning.

It's not exactly 15 years, but an explanation I've seen for the recent rise of the shidduch crisis is that women used to die in childbirth, lo aleinu, much more frequently, which evened out the numbers. The women who didn't get married at 18 could find a widower at 19. I believe it was in the late 1970s/early 1980s that maternal mortality rates in developed countries stabilized to their current rates (http://www.deathreference.com/Me-Nu/Mortality-Childbirth.html). It would have taken some time before the number of older single girls became significant enough for people to recognize that there was a "crisis", and that it wasn't just a few isolated cases of girls who were presumed not particularly desirable for some reason or another.

As for your second manifestation of the crisis, the fact that there are more girls available than boys does, in fact, explain why it takes longer for a girl to get a date, assuming a boy doesn't consider more than one girl at a time, and potentially goes out with one girl several times over the course of a few weeks or months before moving on.

Yes, there are other factors at play, which explain why certain girls (e.g. the rich ones) are the first to find a shidduch, while others may be struggling to even get a date, but this is a side effect of the fact that the boys can get away with being particular because they have so many options.

To Anonymous # 101.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post. I very much respect your doctorate in Math and I value your opinion.

Your quote about maternal mortality not stabilizing to our current low levels until the late 70s didn’t seem intuitively correct to me. I don’t think many (if any) members of our generation can remember the occurrence of women dying in childbirth as having any kind of significant frequency in our lifetime. I checked the data on the site you mentioned and it turns out that the US maternal mortality rate per 100,000 dropped from 580 to 40 between 1930 and 1950. The rate then dropped from 40 to 8, where it stabilized, between 1950 and 1980. So the overwhelming portion (94%) of the total decline between 1930 and 1980 had already occurred as of 60 years ago! This certainly then, cannot be the reason that any surge in surviving young mothers would only have been noticed in the last 15 or 20 years.

I appreciate that you agree with me that other factors are at play and I agree with you that any selection criteria being used by boys is going to be exacerbated by the fact that the boys have the demographics on their side allowing them to get away with it.

It really comes back then to a chicken and egg question. Is the demographic imbalance motivating boys to be extra selective or is the emergence of more exaggerated selection criteria further enlarging the age gap. I think it is in fact a vicious cycle of both, but I remain convinced that the emergence of “money-centracism” by our current generation of yeshivah boys (and their parents !) who are looking for substantial financial support is the main culprit.

Even if one wants to approach the issue by attacking the age gap, I find it surprising that our rabbonim would advocate doing so by delaying the entry of the young girls into dating (which is completely inconsistent with historical Torah values) rather than by accelerating the entry of the young boys (which would be fully consistent with historical Torah values).

Frankly, I don’t think all the Kol Korehs in the world are going to change this behavior. However I do think that if we went back to the Hashkafa of a generation ago that allowed people such as yourself to earn Ph.D.s and earn a living while still being valued as bnei Torah, that we could deemphasize the role played by money in shidduchim.

May we all be zocheh to find shidduchim for our children.

121

 Oct 21, 2009 at 09:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Can anyone tell us the age of each of these Rabbis and the age of each one's wife? My bet is that that it is another case of those in authority saying "listen to what I say not to what I do."

My opinion is that age has very little to do with it. If a woman is having trouble finding a shidduch with a man in her preferred age range, let her be realistic and accept a shidduch with a man who is a bit older. If a man cannot find a shidduch with woman as young as he wants, let him settle for a woman who is older. It works the same way with any other positive trait. If a person cannot get a shidduch with someone as smart, healthy, good looking, rich, talented, etc., as he/she wants, then eventually they settle for someone with not so much going for them, but who may be the best match they can realistically get.

122

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:04 PM Getzel the Pretzel Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

First and most import is that yiddin should not be relying on shiduchim for finding their soulmates and future spouse. There are many opportunities today for boys and girls to meet in healthy and halachicly appropriate settings so that they can get to know one another directly rather than paying some yenta to do a shidduch where the schadchan is being told to fix the "age gap" and other nareshkeit.

"There are many opportunities today for boys and girls to meet in healthy and halachicly appropriate settings so that they can get to know one another directly rather than paying some yenta to do a shidduch where the schadchan is being told to fix the "age gap" and other nareshkeit.”

How is what you are saying "halachic" if it is inconsistent with the Shulchan Orach Even Haezer 21? See the Gr"a that brings Avos D'Rab Noson that makes what you say worse. Also the Chut Shani on the sugya of harchakas arayes about what the Chazon Ish said about these types of ideas

123

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
Anonymous Says:

As a shadchan for the last 10 years, demographics aside --- it's the attitude on the part of the men that there's always another group of girls who will graduate seminary that lulls them against focusing on the girls they are presently dating. I abhor the ageism, but it's most toxic effect is when it prevents men from taking seriously appropriate prospects, always because there's got to be something better out there...I take issue with this article -- any number of demographic studies have proven there's a gender disparity.

If nothing else, there's a whole generation of guys in their 30s and 40s who are convinced they are all going to marry their perfect 22 year old mate -- and it doesn't matter that there isn't a 22 year old out there who will date them...or that none of them seem to realize that they actually don't have very much in common with someone that much younger than them...that is the root of the pathology here...

Well said, you stated my thoughts better than I could.

124

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #117  
Truth Says:

I'm not going into the debate whether boys should marry older girls, but how about women marrying older men? I know plenty of men in their 40's who aren't married. If the women would marry them then you wouldn't need boys to marry the older girls. And the lame excuse that if they are 40 or above they must be mentally ill doesn't hold water. First of all, just because you didn't get married doesn't mean you are ill and even if you are -nowadays most psychological problems can be cured or controlled.

I think you have it turned around. Single women in their 40s would most definitely marry men in their 40s. In fact, many single women in their mid and upper 30s would marry men in their 40s. But you can't say the same about single men in their 40s. The reality is that most (not all) men who haven't married by the time they hit 40 is because they are looking for the impossible in a woman. And the older they get the more impossible their expectations become because they are looking for the exact same thing for more than 20 years and it's highly unlikely that a pretty 21 year old with rich parents is going to marry a 40 year old.

125

 Oct 21, 2009 at 10:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Halacha requires a man to marry in order to procreate, and if he hasn't yet fulfilled the Mitzva to "be fruitful and multiply" he is required to divorce his wife if it becomes apparent that she cannot bear children.

Can anyone explain then why shaddconim, apparently with the sanction of many Rabbis, regularly encourage healthy men in their 40s and 50s to accept shidduchim with women who are well beyond childbearing age? If they were already married the halacha would call for them to divorce, any yet in today's day and age these are the only women who are being suggested to such men (I know from personal experience)!

Clearly a major part of the 'shidduch crisis' is because women are now being openly discouraged from marrying older men - a problem contributed to by the sentiment in the proclamation signed by these 60 Rabbis.

Women today are being taught to give no thought to their own ticking time-clock, which naturally makes them incapable of having children at a much younger age than men. If we would go back to Torah-based priorities there would be much less problems.

126

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:46 PM Uri Bakay Says:

Yasher Koach Rabbi Weissmann finally someone with the guts to tell it like it is!!

127

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:38 PM Anonymous Says:

im so confused by everything. so is it easier for a good boy to find a good girl or good girl to find a good boy?

128

 Oct 22, 2009 at 07:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
Anonymous Says:

Halacha requires a man to marry in order to procreate, and if he hasn't yet fulfilled the Mitzva to "be fruitful and multiply" he is required to divorce his wife if it becomes apparent that she cannot bear children.

Can anyone explain then why shaddconim, apparently with the sanction of many Rabbis, regularly encourage healthy men in their 40s and 50s to accept shidduchim with women who are well beyond childbearing age? If they were already married the halacha would call for them to divorce, any yet in today's day and age these are the only women who are being suggested to such men (I know from personal experience)!

Clearly a major part of the 'shidduch crisis' is because women are now being openly discouraged from marrying older men - a problem contributed to by the sentiment in the proclamation signed by these 60 Rabbis.

Women today are being taught to give no thought to their own ticking time-clock, which naturally makes them incapable of having children at a much younger age than men. If we would go back to Torah-based priorities there would be much less problems.

There is no Rav today that would require a man to divorce his wife if she can't have children.
Also women today are having children in their 40's so I can't understand why a 55 year old man wouldn't date a 42 year old (I tried to red it) because she is too old. Well I guess he's not getting married - personally I wouldn't want to marry a man old enough to be my father. I have 4 cousins over 40 that have had children in the last few years, 2 of them in the last 2 months! And the other 2 were over 45! Maybe a little bitachon would help?

129

 Oct 22, 2009 at 06:37 AM Henoch Says:

So now girls will have their age eligibility cut on both ends. First they will be considered too young, then they will have a short period of eligibility, and then they will be too old.

130

 Oct 22, 2009 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #127  
Anonymous Says:

im so confused by everything. so is it easier for a good boy to find a good girl or good girl to find a good boy?

A lot depends on how you define "good' in this context. For me (and my nearly-in-the-parsha daughter), a good boy has excellent middos and is serious about his Yiddishkeit, which would be expressed by a desire to be medakdeik in performance of mitzvos - so he would go to minyan, be koveya itim, etc. My daughter wants a boy who will work. B"H, she knows she is not cut out for the kollel life. So a fine, solid working boy who goes to minyan and has a seder would be a "good" boy for her. BUT, many yound ladies would not regard a boy who works and supports his family as a good catch. To so many young ladies, a "good" boy is the best learner in Lakewood, or the like, who is going to learn for ages; but, unfortunately, this might not be the best boy for them....

131

 Oct 22, 2009 at 09:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Raphael Kaufman Says:

In friedicke yahren, paricularly in Eastern European shtetlach as late as the mid to late 19th century of the Common Era, husbands were almost always older than their wives and often a lot older. This was because female life expectancy, before the availablity of modern Western medicine, was considerably shorter than male life expectancy. Girls needed to be wed young so that they could raise a family as early as possible. Also, since many women died in childbirth or from childbirth related causes that is was not unusual for a man to have two or even three wives in his lifetime. It is only since the developement of sterile childbirth practices and the discovery of antibiotics that female life expectancy has equaled and exceeded that of men.

Not true. Life expectancy was always higher for women than for men.

132

 Oct 22, 2009 at 09:30 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

No. When C"V people are not getting married and not making more of the Bayis Ne'eman B'Yisroel, that IS a crisis.

If you're saying this because all of your children are married, be very careful with what comes out of your mouth.

Hashem treats Jews, Middah K'Neged Middah, measure for measure. Because of your nasty words, Hashem may cause a descendant of yours to have a hard time getting married or C"V not get married at all.

Wow.

I didn't even want to dignify the garbage you produced with a response. But I decided you need to be responded to.

Shame on you. To wish bad for another yid and to curse him and his innocent "descendants." And after scolding him for not watching what comes out of his mouth noch dertzi.

You think only you have a handle on what goes on in the dating circles? Do you think you are the only one who is single or who has unwed older children/relatives? I have many close relatives who are no closer to getting married than myself to growing wings. I speak with some knowledge. I know the egos. I witness first hand the stubbornness, disconnection from reality and the frustration of those who devote themselves to helping. Who exactly do you think you are and who it is that you're talking to?

I am not trivializing what you are going through with yourself or daughters. Other than the horrible things you wish for others I hope your tfilos are answered bimheira. But what you did was uncalled for, and in very poor judgement and taste.

133

 Oct 22, 2009 at 02:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Actually, there are more boys born in the world than girls. This is what I found online:
"Facts on Females Living Longer & Stronger

* Male births slightly outnumber female births, but boys have a higher death rate if born premature: 22 percent compared with 15 percent for girls.

* Overall, more newborn males die than females (5 to 4).

* Sudden infant death syndrome is one and a half times more common in boys than girls.
* As teenagers, boys die at twice the rate of girls.

* Men have fewer infection-fighting T-cells and are thought to have weaker immune systems than women.

* By the age of 36, women outnumber men.

* Stroke, cancer, diabetes, heart disease and accidents--all among the top causes of death--kill men at a higher rate than women.

* American men typically die almost six years before women do."

* By the age of 100, women outnumber men eight to one.

So if there's a Shidduch gender disparity in our circles with more girls than boys earlier than age 36 it's probably either
A. The Rabbis are right (which I tend to believe because in Chasidic circles the boys are the ones that have a tougher time, and boys and girls marry at about the same age)

B. For whatever reason genetic or otherwise we're different than the rest of the world with more boys than girls. (For example a father that smokes supposedly lessens a his chances of having a boy)

or C. A combination of the two.

134

 Oct 22, 2009 at 01:38 AM shidduchim 101 Says:

Rabbi Chananya Weissman bashing rabonim again, and yet because he's pushing his agenda he fails to see the forest because of the trees. In Satmar, Vishnitz, Pupa, Skver, Bobov, etc, 95% of eligible boys and girls are engaged by 18-20 like it says in Shulchan Oruch. In Weissman's modern orthodox circles 53% of the pool is still single going into their 30s, matching the demographics of non- religious Jews and the "secular world" i.e., Goyishe culture, that he and his MO coreligionists have embraced.

Lets look at the facts:
Males
A chasidic boy does not: touch, look at, talk to, or even think about girls. He is told that if he works on his middos, studies hard and becomes a talmid chochum and davens for a proper shiddich, hashem will send it in it's proper time.... His parents set him up with a girl who is a baalos chesed and middos, having not been poisoned by 20 years of TV and not really knowing what "good" and "bad" looking are supposed to be, looks are usually not a problem, her father is a talmud chachom and a klai kodesh, AND IT HAPPENS IN 95% of cases before age 20!!!

A modern orthodox boy watches movie and TV since birth. He has seen 20,000 different women by the time he starts dating at age twelve and has been "educated" about what is good looking, and "HOT", and sexy, and what is not. He has his heart set on girl that looks like a super model and can be expected to perform like a pornstar. However he fails to acknowledge that statistically speaking there are only so many super models and porn stars in the general population pool and an infintesimally smaller number of "frum" super models and pornstars. So what he's looking for basically doesn't exist. He is told that he must complete college and grad school to prepare himself for the "modern world". He has 20 girlfriends that he has has used and molested to various degrees by the time he is "thinking" about marriage at about age 30 (Chassidic man has 8-9 kids by this time), yet, he just can't seem to find Mrs. Right.

Females:
A chasidic girl does not: touch, look at, talk to, or even think about boys. She is told that if she works on her middos (character traits not physical measurements)becomes a ba'alos chesed and davens for a proper shiddich, hashem will send it in it's proper time.... AND IT HAPPENS IN 95% of cases before age 20!!!

A modern orthodox girl watches movie and TV since birth has 20,000 different men by the time she starts dating at age twelve and has been "educated" about what is good looking and acceptable (clean shaven Tom Cruise type profile) and what is not. She is tild that she must complete college to prepare herself for the "modern world". She has 20 boyfriends by the time she is "thinking" about marriage at age 27 (Chassidic women has 5-6 kids by this time) many of the former boyfriends intimately familiar with her body, but still she just can't seem to find Mr. Right.

Weissman's solution? Go to tzaddik for a bracha?? Don't be ridiculous. Maybe say a few perakim of tehillim everyday for zivug nachon? Forget it, G-d doesn't help us any more, and besides we don't need G-d anymore because we (the MO) have Tzahal to protect us. (Maybe ask a soldier for a bracha.) Daven by kivrei tzaddikim maybe?? Hey man the dude is dead! your wasting your time. Give money to Tzedakah?? Absolutely not and especially not to any charity that had a sponsor print a glossy brochure. (Even though all the above seem to work in varying measure for those actually use them.)

No, Weissman's solution is more singles events and speed dating that hasn't worked for them for the past 15 years.

As a side note. I was told that Rav Avigdor Miller, zt"l once said that a parent that allows his children to watch TV should be arrested and sit in jail. i.e., If parents would realize how they poison and damage their children with this daily intake of toxins they would immediately throw out their TV's. And that was said when TV was a lot better than it is today.

One final thought. I am always with chassidishe wedding invitations that feature the names of (living) grandparents and often geat grandparents. For those that have adopted the goyishe mindset that a "proper marriage" is normal at age 35 and of course that's after a years engagement during which the "chatan and kallah" will frequently take off a weekend together to plan their wedding and honeymoon. What the chances of such a couple ever seeing, much less witnessing the marriage of, their grandchildren when they lechatchilah never planned on marrying before double the age stated in shulchan oruch.

stats from
-Young Jewish Adults in the United States Today. A Research Report for the American Jewish Committee, 2006

135

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:30 AM Anonymous Says:

If what many of you have written is true and the crises is the result of boys seeking rich girls why aren't a whole lot of boys not married? Are you saying that there are enough rich girls around to create a crises and take the majority of the boys off the market? How absurd. Some of you claim its pickiness. Again. Where are the boys in that case. Pickiness prolongs the process which means both a boy and a girl aren't going to get married. As for rich girls getting dates. My daughter is a rich girl and I can support BH. She is only 19 but many of her friends are already engaged and guess what? Most of them are poor.

136

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:07 AM Anonymous Says:

I think the reason people have difficulty understanding the math behind the Shidduch crisis is because it is so simple. People expect something more complex.

Leave all your preconceptions behind.

You have 10 boys and ten girls born in 1980
In 1983 you have 13 boys and thirteen girls
The 10 boys born in 1980 marry the girls born in 1983. There are 13
girls. Therefore 3 girls are left and they become older singles. They can't marry the boys born in 1982 because the boys born in 1982 want girls born in 1979. This goes on and on unless we stop it and have boys and girls marry each other close in age.

For those who say that we only started having a Shidduch crisis in the last 15 years. This is not true. After WW2 there was a shidduch crisis but the frum community was much smaller and therefore the amount of single women was much smaller and they did not stand out. As the community got larger, the amount of single women got larger till we reached the point that there is a crisis. If we don't do something now the crisis will get much bigger.

By the way there must have been a Shidduch crisis in the Jewish community before WW2. Between 1850 and 1939 the Jewish community grew a lot. I have heard stories from Holocaust survivors who said how terrible it was in Europe that there were so many older girls who could not get married. They attributed it to the fact that the girls did not have a dowry. The real truth was that there was a large age gap in Europe (men married women even 7 years younger than they) and therefore there were many single girls left over. Of course the girls with the dowries were the first to marry and those who did not have one were left over. The lack of dowry did not cause the problem. The age gap caused the problem and because there was such a large pool of women for men to choose from, they could afford to ask for large dowries.

By the way the reason the Chassidim go 50/50 as far as money is concerned is because there is no age gap and therefore hardly any Shidduch crisis (except for a small surplus of boys, but that's because the marriage age has to be fine tuned). If there is no surplus of girls then the girl's families don't have to pay off the boy's families in order to to get their daughters married and so they go 50/50.

137

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:03 AM Anonymous Says:

+eissman believes that the frum system is flawed and the mod. orthodo have the answer- mingling of the genders, so he bashes the rabbanim and ignores the math to promogulate his twisted shitos. Afra L'pumei.

138

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:00 AM Anonymous Says:

First of all, noone has a right to judge older singles or singles in general, unless they themselves went through the same issues in getting married; its a mishna in avos "al todin es chaveyroh, ad shetageeyah limikomo". Noone that hasnt gone through the pain can understand it.

Second it would seem to me from this kol koreih, that the derech of our Avos, Avraham, Yitzchock, Yaakov, who were all well older than their wives is not relevant.

139

 Oct 21, 2009 at 11:55 PM 26 year old single, never married, male Says:

I have read all 121 posts up to this point and no one mentioned this problem: A free flow of accurate and complete information in the shidduch world. It is my subjective view that this can hurt two compatible people from meeting. I have experienced people (i.e. anyone suggesting a potential match) "shading" the truth, "hiding" the truth, "bending" the truth, telling me what they THINK I want to hear when it is not 100% honest.

It has been my experience in business that you only believe the word of a middle man when he has the authority to back it up, puts his money where his mouth is, or has the final say. (The middle man usually does not. Hence, he is a middle man.) Analogously, people suggesting someone to someone else should be careful to be altruistic, open, up-front, accurate, truthful, and present the whole picture without hiding pieces.

good luck.

140

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:11 PM FVNMS is still with this thread Says:

Reply to #134  
shidduchim 101 Says:

Rabbi Chananya Weissman bashing rabonim again, and yet because he's pushing his agenda he fails to see the forest because of the trees. In Satmar, Vishnitz, Pupa, Skver, Bobov, etc, 95% of eligible boys and girls are engaged by 18-20 like it says in Shulchan Oruch. In Weissman's modern orthodox circles 53% of the pool is still single going into their 30s, matching the demographics of non- religious Jews and the "secular world" i.e., Goyishe culture, that he and his MO coreligionists have embraced.

Lets look at the facts:
Males
A chasidic boy does not: touch, look at, talk to, or even think about girls. He is told that if he works on his middos, studies hard and becomes a talmid chochum and davens for a proper shiddich, hashem will send it in it's proper time.... His parents set him up with a girl who is a baalos chesed and middos, having not been poisoned by 20 years of TV and not really knowing what "good" and "bad" looking are supposed to be, looks are usually not a problem, her father is a talmud chachom and a klai kodesh, AND IT HAPPENS IN 95% of cases before age 20!!!

A modern orthodox boy watches movie and TV since birth. He has seen 20,000 different women by the time he starts dating at age twelve and has been "educated" about what is good looking, and "HOT", and sexy, and what is not. He has his heart set on girl that looks like a super model and can be expected to perform like a pornstar. However he fails to acknowledge that statistically speaking there are only so many super models and porn stars in the general population pool and an infintesimally smaller number of "frum" super models and pornstars. So what he's looking for basically doesn't exist. He is told that he must complete college and grad school to prepare himself for the "modern world". He has 20 girlfriends that he has has used and molested to various degrees by the time he is "thinking" about marriage at about age 30 (Chassidic man has 8-9 kids by this time), yet, he just can't seem to find Mrs. Right.

Females:
A chasidic girl does not: touch, look at, talk to, or even think about boys. She is told that if she works on her middos (character traits not physical measurements)becomes a ba'alos chesed and davens for a proper shiddich, hashem will send it in it's proper time.... AND IT HAPPENS IN 95% of cases before age 20!!!

A modern orthodox girl watches movie and TV since birth has 20,000 different men by the time she starts dating at age twelve and has been "educated" about what is good looking and acceptable (clean shaven Tom Cruise type profile) and what is not. She is tild that she must complete college to prepare herself for the "modern world". She has 20 boyfriends by the time she is "thinking" about marriage at age 27 (Chassidic women has 5-6 kids by this time) many of the former boyfriends intimately familiar with her body, but still she just can't seem to find Mr. Right.

Weissman's solution? Go to tzaddik for a bracha?? Don't be ridiculous. Maybe say a few perakim of tehillim everyday for zivug nachon? Forget it, G-d doesn't help us any more, and besides we don't need G-d anymore because we (the MO) have Tzahal to protect us. (Maybe ask a soldier for a bracha.) Daven by kivrei tzaddikim maybe?? Hey man the dude is dead! your wasting your time. Give money to Tzedakah?? Absolutely not and especially not to any charity that had a sponsor print a glossy brochure. (Even though all the above seem to work in varying measure for those actually use them.)

No, Weissman's solution is more singles events and speed dating that hasn't worked for them for the past 15 years.

As a side note. I was told that Rav Avigdor Miller, zt"l once said that a parent that allows his children to watch TV should be arrested and sit in jail. i.e., If parents would realize how they poison and damage their children with this daily intake of toxins they would immediately throw out their TV's. And that was said when TV was a lot better than it is today.

One final thought. I am always with chassidishe wedding invitations that feature the names of (living) grandparents and often geat grandparents. For those that have adopted the goyishe mindset that a "proper marriage" is normal at age 35 and of course that's after a years engagement during which the "chatan and kallah" will frequently take off a weekend together to plan their wedding and honeymoon. What the chances of such a couple ever seeing, much less witnessing the marriage of, their grandchildren when they lechatchilah never planned on marrying before double the age stated in shulchan oruch.

stats from
-Young Jewish Adults in the United States Today. A Research Report for the American Jewish Committee, 2006

Some truth to what you say. But you're painting with very wide brush. Many singles in my family - we're as heimish as your rebbe. All of my MO friends are married (I have quite a bit) and many were "shomer" (yes I'm rolling my eyes too). I know a lot of chassidishe boys (no, not one or two... spare me the "Exception to the Rule" lecture) who are not anything like you described them. But unlike their MO counterparts, they are not as "intimately familiar," to quote you, with the names of the fine young ladies in question as much as their bodies. Not that the names would mean anything either vehameivin yuvin. And please, while the chassidish system of marriage has its merits it is also flawed. Many women I know were (not forced but) pressured into marrying garbage who end up abusing or cheating on them. Everybody likes to say Ashreinu ma tov chelkenu about his/her own oilem. But nobody is perfect, no system is perfect and just oversimplifying, marginalizing and maligning a whole chunk of shomrei torah is not a mitzvah.

141

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
ridiculous Says:

OK... whatever about the article. I just want to say that if a rabbi says your left hand is your right and your right is your left, the Torah says you have to listen to him.

Nothing like blind faith and basing companionship on this earth on money. You are all extremly sick.

142

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:27 PM Shaddchan amongst u! Says:

Actually, I'm not sure why the writer is so upset about the concept of encouraging singles, specifically men to try and keep to a shidduch prospect within their own age group. That's not to say that one should entirely rule out a younger prospect if all else matches up. The concept of encouraging this trend, and the endorsement of rabbonim is simply because too often the older single girls reach a point where the ripe child-bearing years are running out. To me it's simple. Men should not assume that there's something wrong with a girl simply because she's within an older age group, since they themselves are in that same category!

Conclusion: I believe each situation is individual and should be treated as such. I do agree with the article though on one point, and that is that everyone has someone destined for them. The problem is not who to match to who etc., the problem is a lack of shaddchanim and the involvement of a collaborative effort within the Kehillas.

143

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:25 PM Med student Says:

Reply to #133  
Anonymous Says:

Actually, there are more boys born in the world than girls. This is what I found online:
"Facts on Females Living Longer & Stronger

* Male births slightly outnumber female births, but boys have a higher death rate if born premature: 22 percent compared with 15 percent for girls.

* Overall, more newborn males die than females (5 to 4).

* Sudden infant death syndrome is one and a half times more common in boys than girls.
* As teenagers, boys die at twice the rate of girls.

* Men have fewer infection-fighting T-cells and are thought to have weaker immune systems than women.

* By the age of 36, women outnumber men.

* Stroke, cancer, diabetes, heart disease and accidents--all among the top causes of death--kill men at a higher rate than women.

* American men typically die almost six years before women do."

* By the age of 100, women outnumber men eight to one.

So if there's a Shidduch gender disparity in our circles with more girls than boys earlier than age 36 it's probably either
A. The Rabbis are right (which I tend to believe because in Chasidic circles the boys are the ones that have a tougher time, and boys and girls marry at about the same age)

B. For whatever reason genetic or otherwise we're different than the rest of the world with more boys than girls. (For example a father that smokes supposedly lessens a his chances of having a boy)

or C. A combination of the two.

You're a 100% right- this is what we learned in school. So we have another Kol Korei based on the falsehood of more women than men. I personally think the reason so many girls aren't married is because they and their families are too picky.

144

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:35 PM Truth Says:

Reply to #124  
Anonymous Says:

I think you have it turned around. Single women in their 40s would most definitely marry men in their 40s. In fact, many single women in their mid and upper 30s would marry men in their 40s. But you can't say the same about single men in their 40s. The reality is that most (not all) men who haven't married by the time they hit 40 is because they are looking for the impossible in a woman. And the older they get the more impossible their expectations become because they are looking for the exact same thing for more than 20 years and it's highly unlikely that a pretty 21 year old with rich parents is going to marry a 40 year old.

What proof do you have that your statement is accurate? Unless you are a single 40 y.o. like me & my friends, you are just being Oiver Motzay Shem Rah on a whole group of people! It's people like you that make it impossible for people like me to get married!

145

 Oct 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:

You misinterpreted my quote. Actually, my conclusion on this was that most likely the Rabbis are right. Not because there are more girls than boys, but because of the expanding population with more children born every year than the year prior, there were very likely more girls born in 1990 than boys born in 1987. If it's extreme, it may even override the fact that more girls are born than boys in the worldwide (I'm assuming Jewish as well) population in any given year.

146

 Oct 22, 2009 at 01:57 PM Anonymous Says:

oops! I meant to say "more boys are born than girls..." in my last sentence.

147

 Oct 22, 2009 at 03:17 PM Bubbie Says:

It's unfortunate that Mr. Weissman seems to have an anti-Godol agenda, but some of his points are valid. These demographic studies do not take everything into account -especially the Aibershter.

Look around next time you are at a chupuah. (I speak of Litvishe, I don't know many Chasidishe). The women are almost all either crying, davening, or saying Tehillim mechulak. The men are spacing out, shmuzing (in learning?), texting or even TALKING on their cell phones. Of course, this may be because the women are gullible enough to believe it's an Ais Rotzon, the Shechinah is present, etc, while the men can be cynical & quote plenty of mekoros why women are too gullible...and maybe it's only an Ais Rotzon for the chosson & kallah (& for sure why do you start davening before the chosson & kallah are both under the chupah?)...

So, who is doing a better job, the Bais Yankevs or the Yeshivos? The girls are often more mature, responsible (what responsibilities does a bochur have?) and have more Yiras Shomayim due to more emphasis on hashkafa in school and additional voluntary shiurim (because they girls have no yetzer hara to be mevatel Torah).

This may explain why there are more girls looking for shtarke learners than there are shtarke learners...

Simple eitzah - let the girls do their hishtadlus to earn a parnasah, whether schooling or work experience and savings, and only go out after a full year or two after seminary. This will help enable them to be a normal mother who can work part-time and be a mother.

This in no way is meant to endorse the age-gap theory. I think it does a disservice by making the girls & their parents panicky, which is why they are frantically looking for a boy right after sem or sooner.

In fact, my suggestions might not work because many of the girls at 19 are already way more mature than boys of 23....that's why many of the boys won't buy the proposal either...

148

 Oct 22, 2009 at 04:21 PM Med student Says:

Reply to #145  
Anonymous Says:

You misinterpreted my quote. Actually, my conclusion on this was that most likely the Rabbis are right. Not because there are more girls than boys, but because of the expanding population with more children born every year than the year prior, there were very likely more girls born in 1990 than boys born in 1987. If it's extreme, it may even override the fact that more girls are born than boys in the worldwide (I'm assuming Jewish as well) population in any given year.

I didn't misinterpret anything. I just disagree with your conclusion, because if there are always more boys- what happened to them? Answer -they didn't get married- so these older girls shouldn't look for boys the same age if they can't find boys a little older, they should look for boys much older!

149

 Oct 22, 2009 at 07:00 PM FVNMS Says:

I hereby pronounce this thread dead.

150

 Oct 22, 2009 at 07:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #128  
Anonymous Says:

There is no Rav today that would require a man to divorce his wife if she can't have children.
Also women today are having children in their 40's so I can't understand why a 55 year old man wouldn't date a 42 year old (I tried to red it) because she is too old. Well I guess he's not getting married - personally I wouldn't want to marry a man old enough to be my father. I have 4 cousins over 40 that have had children in the last few years, 2 of them in the last 2 months! And the other 2 were over 45! Maybe a little bitachon would help?

About divorce, you are correct, but that is already a "b'deved" situation that exists and "shaiv v'lo ta'aseh" is more acceptable, especially as other Mitzvos are likely involved (e.g., ahavas Yisroel). But that none of that applies for trying to initiate such matches right from the start when one party is able to procreate and the other is not. Do you agree?

Regarding the shidduch you tried to arrange, I applaud your attempt (and that of the 'young lady' if she already had accepted) and think the man in that case most likely was wrong not to have given it a try, and if everything else was acceptable, then, as you express it, he (and she) should have bitochon and go for it.. Hopefully others reading this will emulate your efforts. Hatzlocha, and may we hear besuros tovos!

151

 Oct 22, 2009 at 10:51 PM Michaltastik Says:

Reply to #125  
Anonymous Says:

Halacha requires a man to marry in order to procreate, and if he hasn't yet fulfilled the Mitzva to "be fruitful and multiply" he is required to divorce his wife if it becomes apparent that she cannot bear children.

Can anyone explain then why shaddconim, apparently with the sanction of many Rabbis, regularly encourage healthy men in their 40s and 50s to accept shidduchim with women who are well beyond childbearing age? If they were already married the halacha would call for them to divorce, any yet in today's day and age these are the only women who are being suggested to such men (I know from personal experience)!

Clearly a major part of the 'shidduch crisis' is because women are now being openly discouraged from marrying older men - a problem contributed to by the sentiment in the proclamation signed by these 60 Rabbis.

Women today are being taught to give no thought to their own ticking time-clock, which naturally makes them incapable of having children at a much younger age than men. If we would go back to Torah-based priorities there would be much less problems.

There you have it!

Men figure that they are supposed to have children so they just dig in their heels and refuse to give serious consideration to age-appropriate women. They wait until they are over 40 and then they say, "but, I want to have children, so I need a younger woman."

I suspect the difference in the numbers isn't as bad as people think. For one thing, while there is always a ton more women on the shadchans' lists that go around. Wouldn't that happen if women were getting on 10 lists and men were only getting on 2? I think that men are less likely to go to a shadchan because they want a girl based on her being young and pretty. It seems like men tell me their friend is getting married and they say, "she is X number of years younger than him." What does she do? Where is from? They don't know. They only know if she's young.

I see a trend that Ashkenaz men are willing to marry non-American women, such as Bukharian, Georgian and Hispanic girls they take in to the rabbi for conversion. However, American women are not interested in these men (if you know any, you know why).

The fact that modern people aren't getting married because they already getting it on, is a contributing factor. I think those who marry younger, though, are more likely to cheat. It's usually men from Boro Park on Craigslist looking for someone. I doubt they are single.

The other problem is that, come on, people said this, they keep telling men there's more of them than women, it's a crisis so the men get pickier and pickier because they figure they can. Women, like me, figure we will stay single before we will spend the rest of our lives with someone we don't want.

152

 Oct 22, 2009 at 11:54 PM Truth Says:

Reply to #151  
Michaltastik Says:

There you have it!

Men figure that they are supposed to have children so they just dig in their heels and refuse to give serious consideration to age-appropriate women. They wait until they are over 40 and then they say, "but, I want to have children, so I need a younger woman."

I suspect the difference in the numbers isn't as bad as people think. For one thing, while there is always a ton more women on the shadchans' lists that go around. Wouldn't that happen if women were getting on 10 lists and men were only getting on 2? I think that men are less likely to go to a shadchan because they want a girl based on her being young and pretty. It seems like men tell me their friend is getting married and they say, "she is X number of years younger than him." What does she do? Where is from? They don't know. They only know if she's young.

I see a trend that Ashkenaz men are willing to marry non-American women, such as Bukharian, Georgian and Hispanic girls they take in to the rabbi for conversion. However, American women are not interested in these men (if you know any, you know why).

The fact that modern people aren't getting married because they already getting it on, is a contributing factor. I think those who marry younger, though, are more likely to cheat. It's usually men from Boro Park on Craigslist looking for someone. I doubt they are single.

The other problem is that, come on, people said this, they keep telling men there's more of them than women, it's a crisis so the men get pickier and pickier because they figure they can. Women, like me, figure we will stay single before we will spend the rest of our lives with someone we don't want.

Unfortunately, you sound very bitter. I also don't believe all the negative things you spout. Most frum men are not the way you portray them. Please don't blame your situation on all of us men. While true that many men in their forties want to have children, this doesn't mean they won't marry a woman in their forties. Nowadays, if a man goes out with a woman in her forties and likes her but won't marry her due to lack of having kids or won't go out with her because of this, the woman has the option of going to her doctor and finding out if she could still have kids. If the Doc says she could, she can have the Doc document it and there would be no more excuse for the man not to marry her. I won't go into medical details because this is a public forum.

153

 Oct 23, 2009 at 10:16 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #152  
Truth Says:

Unfortunately, you sound very bitter. I also don't believe all the negative things you spout. Most frum men are not the way you portray them. Please don't blame your situation on all of us men. While true that many men in their forties want to have children, this doesn't mean they won't marry a woman in their forties. Nowadays, if a man goes out with a woman in her forties and likes her but won't marry her due to lack of having kids or won't go out with her because of this, the woman has the option of going to her doctor and finding out if she could still have kids. If the Doc says she could, she can have the Doc document it and there would be no more excuse for the man not to marry her. I won't go into medical details because this is a public forum.

I should have made my wife get a psychiatric certification document. Just kidding. I hope you are too.

154

 Oct 24, 2009 at 07:52 PM Sara Maimon Says:

While artificially fixing matches between particular ages is not such a great idea, it sure beats pressuring women in their 30s to date men in their 50s.

155

 Oct 24, 2009 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
Anonymous Says:

Halacha requires a man to marry in order to procreate, and if he hasn't yet fulfilled the Mitzva to "be fruitful and multiply" he is required to divorce his wife if it becomes apparent that she cannot bear children.

Can anyone explain then why shaddconim, apparently with the sanction of many Rabbis, regularly encourage healthy men in their 40s and 50s to accept shidduchim with women who are well beyond childbearing age? If they were already married the halacha would call for them to divorce, any yet in today's day and age these are the only women who are being suggested to such men (I know from personal experience)!

Clearly a major part of the 'shidduch crisis' is because women are now being openly discouraged from marrying older men - a problem contributed to by the sentiment in the proclamation signed by these 60 Rabbis.

Women today are being taught to give no thought to their own ticking time-clock, which naturally makes them incapable of having children at a much younger age than men. If we would go back to Torah-based priorities there would be much less problems.

For thousands of years men have married much younger women. Avraham was 10 years younger than.Sarah. Yitzchak was many years older than Rivkah. It makes sense for a man in his 40s or 50s without children to marry a much younger woman. A man in his 50s can marry a woman in her 30s and have children with her. Many women in their late 30s think it is an insult to date men in their 50s. They would rather stay single forever than do so?

I am a 50 year old man who has never been married and stopped dating several years ago. I refuse to date women close to my age. I would rather not date at all. .

Some women are now opting to use a sperm bank and have children without marriage. This is a disgrace, and imo should be illegal. Sperm banks should imo only be for use by married women with the husband's consent.

156

 Oct 25, 2009 at 12:15 AM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #155  
Anonymous Says:

For thousands of years men have married much younger women. Avraham was 10 years younger than.Sarah. Yitzchak was many years older than Rivkah. It makes sense for a man in his 40s or 50s without children to marry a much younger woman. A man in his 50s can marry a woman in her 30s and have children with her. Many women in their late 30s think it is an insult to date men in their 50s. They would rather stay single forever than do so?

I am a 50 year old man who has never been married and stopped dating several years ago. I refuse to date women close to my age. I would rather not date at all. .

Some women are now opting to use a sperm bank and have children without marriage. This is a disgrace, and imo should be illegal. Sperm banks should imo only be for use by married women with the husband's consent.

Regarding your last statement, either you haven't expressed yourself properly or are frighteningly ignorant of halacha.

157

 Oct 25, 2009 at 10:45 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #156  
FVNMS Says:

Regarding your last statement, either you haven't expressed yourself properly or are frighteningly ignorant of halacha.

"“ Regarding your last statement, either you haven't expressed yourself properly or are frighteningly ignorant of halacha.”
"

What are you trying to say? I am not a mind reader.

Imo the shiddach crisis is due to the reletively recent resistance of woman to marrying much older men. In the past, many women married much older men and had children with them. Now so many women refuse to date men more around 5 years older than themselves. I blame the women's lib movement for this. So many women keep talking about a shortage of men, however the real shortage is of women of childbearing age who are willing to choose from one of the available men and get married and have children.

It makes sense for a man over 35 without children to seek a woman 10-15 years younger than himself to marry. In modern times so many women have become so resistant to this. Avraham was 10 years older than Sarah. Yitzchak was probably more than 20 years older than Rivkah. While women can change what they deem to be politically correct, they can't change human biology. While a man can father children at any age over puberty, women can't give birth after their early 40s without the use of extrodinary means. This extrodinary means also usually involves egg donation. Aside from the very high cost of fertility treatments using donor eggs, the idea of children not being biologically related to their mothers is very unappealing to most men.

158

 Oct 28, 2009 at 05:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Some recent research shows older husband/younger wife marriages have a lower rate of divorce, particularly where the gap is 5 years. (See "European Journal of Operational Research, article titles "Optimising The Marriage Market", by Dr Emmanuel Fragnière of the University of Bath.

159

 Oct 29, 2009 at 11:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #158  
Anonymous Says:

Some recent research shows older husband/younger wife marriages have a lower rate of divorce, particularly where the gap is 5 years. (See "European Journal of Operational Research, article titles "Optimising The Marriage Market", by Dr Emmanuel Fragnière of the University of Bath.

Only 5 years? What about marriages where the man is 10-20 years older than the woman?

160

 Nov 01, 2009 at 09:49 AM Gerreryungerman Says:

Reply to #18  
basicmath Says:

The author in trying to bash rabonim missed the boat big time. Assuming there are an equal number of boys and girls born each year. However the population expands B"H each year. That means more children will be born in (both boys and girls)2013 than in 2009. Now if the boys born in 2009 marry the girls from 2013 we are left with the increased # of girls without a match. As far as to the Bas kol he quotes from the Gemara in Sotah it does not mean you don't have to make an hishtadlus. It is a fact that in the chassidisher world (except for Gerrer Bochurim) there is less of a problem being that they marry closer in age. Gerrer Bochurim do have a harder time finding a shidduch, simply because they have very strict rules regarding Kedusha Vthara after the wedding. I hope this clarifies matters and realy I was wondering the same thing the author asks in the beginning of his article. What is one supposed to do when a respected WRITER writes an article disconnected from logic etc.

What you write about Gerrer bochurim having a harder time doing a shidduch because of the halochos we have regarding these inyonim is true. However not all Gerrer Chassidim practice all the chumras of the Bais Yisroel ZTK"L. So please find out what the boys family holds before you just say no to shidduch from Ger. I had a very hard time because obviously I am more with it ( I am online for 1). My family does not do all the Bais Yisroels Chumras even though we are Gerrer Chassidim, Yet no one would give me a chance.

161

 Apr 16, 2012 at 11:06 PM AMishigas Says:

The problem of guys dating only younger women is closely connected to the dating patterns of the ultra-Orthodox. In the wider world boy meets girl older or younger than himself, boy likes girl, boy falls for girl, etc. etc. boy gets girl.

In the frum world: boy checks out girl, boy finds out girl is 6 months older, boy finds out that girl has a brother who is a bit slow, boy finds out that girl lives in a small house in need of decoration, boy finds out that girl's parents are divorced - boy rejects girl before even seeing her.

162

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