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Narita, Japan - Jailed Yeshiva Bochur Provides Written Testimony on Drug Smuggling Misadventure |
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News Source: VIN News Staff
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The testimony, which has been authenticated by VIN News, provides a wealth of information on all of the key figures in the case: Ben-Tzion Miller, whose trial is pending in Israel, Chaim Rotter, who fled to London, and the two other bochurim who accompanied Goldstein during the ill-fated smuggling trip, Yosef Greenwald and Yosef Bandau.
According to Goldstein’s attorney Mordechai Tzivin, who has served as legal counsel in a number of enigmatic international cases, enormous efforts are being made by Dayan Weiss (HaChido) of Antwerp, who “does the work of 10 lawyers and the defense team in Japan consults with him on a regular basis.”
Writing in simple Hebrew, Goldstein recounts the entire affair – from the happy beginning through the grim end.
the testimony starts here
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ben-Tzion asked me to transport the suitcase. I met Ben-Tzion about 10 years ago. I don’t know what kind of work he does now….
He’s a Satmar chossid and I know him as a Satmar chossid. I learn there at the Satmar yeshiva in Bnei Brak, too, and he lives in Jerusalem. I don’t know which part of Jerusalem.
I’ve never traveled with him or worked with him, except when the Satmar Rebbe came to visit in Israel. Ben-Tzion organized the entire visit and I helped him carry boxes of grape juice to the Rebbe’s home…
Except for that incident I haven’t spoken with him at all. He might have heard from the other bochurim that I like to travel, and Chaim Rotter might have given him my name. Also, Bandau told me he had asked other bochurim to travel.
Two weeks before the trip Ben-Tzion called me at our Satmar yeshiva and one of the bochurim pickup up the phone. He shouted out, “Goldstein, you have a call.”
He asked if I wanted to transport a suitcase to Japan with antiquities. I said OK and asked him when. He told me maybe this week, maybe next week. I told him I couldn’t go before Purim.
Then he asked if my passport was valid…He asked me how I write my name and I told him. Then at the end [of the conversation] he told me I’d receive about $1,000 when I returned to Israel, saying he would cover the hotel and flight costs, and trips in Japan, not mentioning what amount he would give me for expenses.
He didn’t tell me I had to transport it from Holland. Just one day before the trip Chaim Rotter arrived with tickets and then he explained the whole route, that first we’d travel to Amsterdam and from there we’d take a train to a city called Dem [Den Helder], where there’s an area with hotels.
Then he gave me the plane ticket and the ticket [voucher] for the hotel in Japan, and $1,500 for expenses, and he told me to keep track of all of the expenses and later he would give me about $1,500 when we returned.
I wasn’t alarmed when I heard we would have to travel to Amsterdam. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with that…
Ben-Tzion [called and] told Greenwald that when we got to Japan we should call him.
Once we arrived in Japan first of all we were supposed to call Ben-Tzion to ask how to travel, and we had to make our way to the Hilton Hotel [in Tokyo], because we didn’t know anyone in Japan…We wanted to travel around Japan a bit, but we didn’t know where. We had to ask Ben-Tzion about everything…
Except for Tokyo I don’t know any places in Japan, and even the name Tokyo I knew from seeing it on the plane ticket.
The suitcases we brought this time we received in Amsterdam at the Fandel Falk [Van der Valk] Hotel from somebody we didn’t know. We were unable to communicate with him because he spoke [only] a bit of Hebrew and English, so he [communicated using gestures].
When I took the suitcase I felt that it was a bit heavy, and then when I opened it I saw it was empty and noticed that the bottom part was a bit high, and then I realized that was where the antiquities were and it was wrapped up well with sponge or something else so that it wouldn’t break.
I thought they were gemstones or old coins [or] clay artifacts the archeologists had found, or other types of antiquities, which I once saw at the [Israel] Museum…
I thought the antiquities were hidden well or that he had wrapped it up well so that it wouldn’t break or that he wanted to hide it from customs and didn’t want to pay money…
I’ve known Bandau for about a year…Once I heard his brother had been caught, I don’t know what for exactly, but I heard he’d been caught for money laundering of something, that he’d broken the law in America…I don’t know whether it involved drugs.
Before we arrived in Narita, Bandau told me he thought there was gold in the suitcases and I told him there were antiquities inside…We [decided] that if there’s any problem then we would leave it at customs, and if Ben-Tzion wanted it then he would pay customs the money…
I’ve known Yaakov Yosef Greenwald for about four years. I study with him at the yeshiva. His family lives on Rechov Hillel near [Rechov] Chazon Ish. I don’t know how many children they have, but they live in Bnei Brak.
Greenwald also knew there were antiquities inside. Greenwald said he knew there were antiquities, because that’s what Chaim Rotter or Ben-Tzion told him.
Greenwald and Ben-Tzion got in contact with one another several times when we got to Holland…I can’t remember exactly at what point they spoke. Once I picked up Greenwald’s cell-phone and Ben-Tzion told me we’d have to switch to a hotel called Fandel Falk [sic].
Ben-Tzion told me the guy who was supposed to bring us the suitcases couldn’t come to the hotel where we were, and he told us we’d have to go right away, as soon as we arrived at the Fandel Falk [sic] Hotel.
the testimony ends here
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Yoel Goldstein’s trial is scheduled to begin soon and Yosef Greenwald’s trial is also pending. Yosef Bandau was sentenced to 5-8 years, and Israel hopes to secure his transfer once the testimony in the two other cases is complete.
Letter Translated by VIN News Israel correspondence Benjamin Slobodkin
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Read Comments (126) — Post Yours »
1
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:22 PM high hopes Says:
I really hope this letter will help these boys be freed sooner my the right person get the right punishment
2
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:21 PM Dag Says:
This says it all: "I thought the antiquities were hidden well or that he had wrapped it up well so that it wouldn’t break or that he wanted to hide it from customs and didn’t want to pay money…"
3
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:20 PM Anonymous Says:
No one is going to believe this testimony that he knew the suitcase had a hidden compartment and someone was going to pay him for carrying it through customs. He may be naive but no one studying talmud at a Satmar beis medrash could be so dumb. He would have been better off remaining silent than trying to sell such a story that no one will find credible.
4
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:20 PM Askupeh Says:
I want to cry.
5
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:26 PM Anonymous Says:
so he knew they didn't want to pay taxes?
6
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:18 PM Anonymous Says:
It seems that the Ben Tzion Miller in question gained legitimacy through his association with the Rebbe. I too would have trusted someone who had such access to the Rebbe.. It is scary
7
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:17 PM Dave Says:
Given that that letter admits to an intent to smuggle (although antiquities, not drugs), I would be extraordinarily surprised at anything other than a guilty verdict.
8
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:32 PM Dag Says:
If this is true, he admits that he realized that he might be breaking the law...and he did it anyway. Even when he knew that there might be trouble at customs, he STILL agreed to try to pass it through rather than declaring upon arrival. Hard to argue Pidyum Shuvuyim in such a case.
9
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:34 PM Askupeh Says:
“ No one is going to believe this testimony that he knew the suitcase had a hidden compartment and someone was going to pay him for carrying it through customs. He may be naive but no one studying talmud at a Satmar beis medrash could be so dumb. He would have been better off remaining silent than trying to sell such a story that no one will find credible. ”
I don't understand what you don't believe. Nebech he is saying the truth. It is very simple what he is saying.
10
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:33 PM crying... Says:
The whole story just makes me cry, there's no difference if they were at fault or not, if they're naive or not, it really really hurts that Heimishe Bochurim are stuck in some nasty prsion in Japan!!!
11
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:37 PM Dag Says:
“ The whole story just makes me cry, there's no difference if they were at fault or not, if they're naive or not, it really really hurts that Heimishe Bochurim are stuck in some nasty prsion in Japan!!! ”
#11 This comment is obscene. "there's no difference if they were at fault or not" This attitude has led to MANY scandals this past summer. We, as a community MUST condemn criminal activity, PERIOD!
12
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ No one is going to believe this testimony that he knew the suitcase had a hidden compartment and someone was going to pay him for carrying it through customs. He may be naive but no one studying talmud at a Satmar beis medrash could be so dumb. He would have been better off remaining silent than trying to sell such a story that no one will find credible. ”
all these bochurim passed lie detector tests. japan like most eastern countries is extremely strict with drug laws, and just wants to make an example.
13
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Given that that letter admits to an intent to smuggle (although antiquities, not drugs), I would be extraordinarily surprised at anything other than a guilty verdict. ”
Knowingly smuggling goods should carry much less sentence than smuggling drugs.
14
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:46 PM Askupeh Says:
“ #11 This comment is obscene. "there's no difference if they were at fault or not" This attitude has led to MANY scandals this past summer. We, as a community MUST condemn criminal activity, PERIOD! ”
I agree with #10. You wouldn't be talking that way if it were your children. There is a time to condemn criminal activity and there is a time to be a Yid and feel for your fellow Yid.
15
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:47 PM Dave Says:
“ Knowingly smuggling goods should carry much less sentence than smuggling drugs. ”
It establishes criminal intent.
The fact that they ended up committing a different crime than the one they intended may not be germane at all (I am not particularly familiar with Japanese law).
But since their only real chance at an acquittal would be for the Judge to believe that they had no idea they were smuggling anything, I would be astonished at anything other than a guilty verdict.
16
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:53 PM Dag Says:
“ I agree with #10. You wouldn't be talking that way if it were your children. There is a time to condemn criminal activity and there is a time to be a Yid and feel for your fellow Yid. ”
#14 I never said I didn't care...this is a tragedy. These kids threw their lives away for nothing.
Kupat Hair once had a segulah miracle story that involved smuggling money into Israel (after a donation to Kupat the smuggled money wasn't found when the bags were searched). THAT attitude is the shame here, and it needs to change or this will become more and more common place.
17
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:53 PM Anonymous Says:
Hopefully the judge will decide the case quickly, they will serve their sentences for a few years and then come home safely to EY.
18
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:52 PM mogo Says:
nebach, the only teshuva that i could think of is if the guy who sent them would testify on their behalf that he manipulated them and took advantage of their naive'. what a sick thing to do, it takes a guy with very little depth to use people in such a cowardly manner! shame!
19
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:52 PM Askupeh Says:
“ It establishes criminal intent.
The fact that they ended up committing a different crime than the one they intended may not be germane at all (I am not particularly familiar with Japanese law).
But since their only real chance at an acquittal would be for the Judge to believe that they had no idea they were smuggling anything, I would be astonished at anything other than a guilty verdict. ”
Dave, are you a prosecutor?
20
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:06 PM spanish bucher Says:
Nebech nebech I hope this letter will help them out a littel
21
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Nebech nebech I hope this letter will help them out a littel ”
Most of us reading the testimony or affidavit (its not a "letter") view his statements as a nail in the coffin, not somthing that will "help the out a littel". I guess you have a different view of the legal system than the rest of us.
22
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:01 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Hopefully the judge will decide the case quickly, they will serve their sentences for a few years and then come home safely to EY. ”
Git Oif Yenems Cheshbon. Do you know what it means serving one day in a prison in Japan?
23
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:24 PM Anonymous Says:
suppose some Japanese trio smuggled drugs into the US and brought them to Williamsburgh to distribute in a satmar yeshiva ....would the parents of the newly addicted payos toting talmidim be melamed z'chus on the three japs as well?
24
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:23 PM Anonymous Says:
If my 17 year old son was travelling, I'd want to know all the arrangements.... there's a reason why kids have parents.... we know more than they do. Why was this 17 year old boy so independent? It seems to me that boys sent off early to yeshivas are expected to have adult knowledge, when they can't possibly have it. They need their parents!!
25
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:25 PM formally Says:
these is very bazaar, nobody not one of the boys stop to think, hey a few boys to carry a suitcase and get a few grand just to fly to japan. alarm bells should have been ringing. Maybe because they are so insulated from the secular society, they do not hear the warnings all the time not to carry a suitcase for someone else.
maybe if they had internet accesses they could have done a search to see if that was normal or if they should be worried.
PS what ever happened to Ben-Tzion, is he free any repercussion does he still hold a nice spot in satmer?
26
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:25 PM Anonymous Says:
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
27
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:58 PM Dave Says:
“ Dave, are you a prosecutor? ”
Nope. Educated layman.
28
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:57 PM Anonymous Says:
Gevalt! Gevalt! Gevalt!! How could they play with fire like this?! Gevalt! One ounce of yiras shomayim would prevent them from taking the risks. Didn't they even want to know "what happens if we get caught"??! Gevalt!
29
Oct 21, 2009 at 05:56 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ I agree with #10. You wouldn't be talking that way if it were your children. There is a time to condemn criminal activity and there is a time to be a Yid and feel for your fellow Yid. ”
We can do both.
Remember that smuggling violates halachah as well as secular law. We don't hesitate to make very clear that we disapprove of halachic violations in other areas.
30
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:29 PM formally Says:
“ all these bochurim passed lie detector tests. japan like most eastern countries is extremely strict with drug laws, and just wants to make an example. ”
If they are strict about their drugs laws, then they are dealing with them the way they always do strictly.
No example at all
31
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:26 PM Dag Says:
“ Git Oif Yenems Cheshbon. Do you know what it means serving one day in a prison in Japan? ”
#17 Do you know what its likes in a Japanese prison? First hand, not the fabrications that have been disseminated in the Frum community.
32
Oct 21, 2009 at 07:06 PM Anonymous Says:
Let's not forget one major point here. It was Yid that sent these yungerleit to do his dirty work for him.
33
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:42 PM formally Says:
“ #17 Do you know what its likes in a Japanese prison? First hand, not the fabrications that have been disseminated in the Frum community. ”
Japanese prison
Procedure
On confinement, prisoners are first classified according to gender, nationality, type of penalty, length of sentence, degree of criminality, and state of physical and mental health. They are then placed in special programs designed to treat individual needs.
Vocational and formal education are emphasized, as is instruction in social values. Most convicts engage in labor, for which a small stipend is set aside for use on release. Under a system stressing incentives, prisoners are initially assigned to community cells, then earn better quarters and additional privileges based on their good behavior.
sounds like an upgrade from meir shoreim
34
Oct 21, 2009 at 06:39 PM Shalom Says:
“ If this is true, he admits that he realized that he might be breaking the law...and he did it anyway. Even when he knew that there might be trouble at customs, he STILL agreed to try to pass it through rather than declaring upon arrival. Hard to argue Pidyum Shuvuyim in such a case. ”
Can you assure us that you and none of your friends and family member ever smuggled goods (not drugs) into Israel or into America/Canada/Europe? That’s exactly what they did. The boy added in his testimony that if they’ll have trouble at the customs, they’ll just leave the suitcases behind. They definitely do not deserve such a harsh punishment for smuggling goods.
The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals.
35
Oct 21, 2009 at 07:24 PM Dave Says:
“ Can you assure us that you and none of your friends and family member ever smuggled goods (not drugs) into Israel or into America/Canada/Europe? That’s exactly what they did. The boy added in his testimony that if they’ll have trouble at the customs, they’ll just leave the suitcases behind. They definitely do not deserve such a harsh punishment for smuggling goods.
The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals. ”
The fact that they thought, "Oh, we'll just bring these in to get around customs, but if we get caught, we'll just leave them" is a searing indictment of the community that raised them.
First, that it raised them to believe that smuggling was an appropriate thing to do, and second, that it raised them in such ignorance that they thought if you try to commit a crime and fail, you just need to leave the goods and go on your way.
36
Oct 21, 2009 at 07:26 PM Batsheva Says:
Noen of this rings true I'm sorry to say. He hadn't heard of anywhere in Japan except Tokyo and that only when he got the air ticket. Do bochurim usually stay in the Hilton? No one should be made to suffer for their naivety but paying for committing a crime is different. This should be a lesson to all bochurim: don't play with fire. Anyone who asks you do something patently illegal, and he admits he knew what was being asked of him was illegal, is handing you a lit fire. If you take it you may well get burned. Soemtimes the burns will be very severe, so don't take it.
37
Oct 21, 2009 at 07:20 PM Milhouse Says:
“ so he knew they didn't want to pay taxes? ”
He speculated that this might be why the "antiquities" were hidden. Of course only a fool WANTS to pay taxes; if you can get away without paying them, why pay voluntarily? What conceivable obligation could one have to the Japanese government to pay it money, especially if one has no connection with Japan, and is just visiting for a few days?
38
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:06 PM Ahem Says:
“ Noen of this rings true I'm sorry to say. He hadn't heard of anywhere in Japan except Tokyo and that only when he got the air ticket. Do bochurim usually stay in the Hilton? No one should be made to suffer for their naivety but paying for committing a crime is different. This should be a lesson to all bochurim: don't play with fire. Anyone who asks you do something patently illegal, and he admits he knew what was being asked of him was illegal, is handing you a lit fire. If you take it you may well get burned. Soemtimes the burns will be very severe, so don't take it. ”
You need to know the Israeli system and mentality they stem from to understand that it's 100% possible. Just like the thousands of meshulachim come to the USA without knowing the language etc... It's just their way of life. We Americans can't understand it.
39
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:17 PM Anonymous Says:
“ You need to know the Israeli system and mentality they stem from to understand that it's 100% possible. Just like the thousands of meshulachim come to the USA without knowing the language etc... It's just their way of life. We Americans can't understand it. ”
"You need to know the Israeli system and mentality they stem from to understand that it's 100% possible"
I have lived in EY most of my life and believe I "understand the Israeli system and mentality" whatever that means but I find your argument about as credibile as that of the boys. They knew exactly what they were doing and if they had any doubts about the legality they could have asked their rebbe. They took their chances, got caught and will pa the consequences. Hopefully they will stay safe in jail and be released as soon as the law in Japan allows.
40
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If this is true, he admits that he realized that he might be breaking the law...and he did it anyway. Even when he knew that there might be trouble at customs, he STILL agreed to try to pass it through rather than declaring upon arrival. Hard to argue Pidyum Shuvuyim in such a case. ”
Did you learn the Halachos of Pinyan Shvium ? So you are ok if these boys sit for a couple of years in Japanese prison.. You judged them as guilty !! May God not be so judgmental and cold on you..
41
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:11 PM Aharon Says:
“ He speculated that this might be why the "antiquities" were hidden. Of course only a fool WANTS to pay taxes; if you can get away without paying them, why pay voluntarily? What conceivable obligation could one have to the Japanese government to pay it money, especially if one has no connection with Japan, and is just visiting for a few days? ”
You are totally without ethics how can you be frum? They were only thought they were stealing so that is OK?
42
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:09 PM Anonymous Says:
"What conceivable obligation could one have to the Japanese government to pay it money, especially if one has no connection with Japan, and is just visiting for a few days"
Japan or EY or any country is entitled to levy whatever taxes, duties customs fees etc. on imported antiques or any other item it wants to. If you don't want to pay it stay out of the country. Your question is so dumb as to make these poor Satmer bochurim look like talmedei chachamim.
43
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:08 PM Anonymous Says:
It seems to me from the following Quote "We [decided] that if there’s any problem then we would leave it at customs, and if Ben-Tzion wanted it then he would pay customs the money…"
The Bochurim did not intend to smuggle or do any crime, & they thought that if it was not legal then customs would just take it away. SO FOR ALL YOU COMMENTATORS GIVING THE GUILTY VERDICT, PLEASE READ THE TESTIMONY MORE CARFULLY!!!
44
Oct 21, 2009 at 08:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Gevalt! Gevalt! Gevalt!! How could they play with fire like this?! Gevalt! One ounce of yiras shomayim would prevent them from taking the risks. Didn't they even want to know "what happens if we get caught"??! Gevalt! ”
“ Gevalt! Gevalt! Gevalt!! How could they play with fire like this?! Gevalt
Dear Mr. Gevalt
Its quite obvious they did not know they were "playing with fire". Like most Satmar their age, they had been led to believe that the rules applicable to others did not apply to them and that if caught, they would cry "gevalt". All your "gevalts" are too little and too late to change the underlying culture that gave rise to their stupid actions.
45
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:15 PM Milhouse Says:
“ #17 Do you know what its likes in a Japanese prison? First hand, not the fabrications that have been disseminated in the Frum community. ”
What fabrications? What makes you not believe the descriptions that we've all seen?
46
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:19 PM Milhouse Says:
“ The fact that they thought, "Oh, we'll just bring these in to get around customs, but if we get caught, we'll just leave them" is a searing indictment of the community that raised them.
First, that it raised them to believe that smuggling was an appropriate thing to do, and second, that it raised them in such ignorance that they thought if you try to commit a crime and fail, you just need to leave the goods and go on your way. ”
What are you talking about? They thought that if the Japanese decide to charge them money to bring the goods in, they would just abandon the goods at customs and let Bentzion deal with it. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly legal. If you don't bring the goods in, you don't owe anything on them, of course.
47
Oct 21, 2009 at 08:48 PM Frequent travelller Says:
There is a big difference between smuggling goods to avoid customs (for which there is an ancient tradition), and smuggling illegal goods/drugs.
Specifically, smuggling cash (for example) does not necessarily harm people. Smuggling drugs is much worse, because the only possible outcome is that people will be harmed as a result.
Does this excuse the boys? No. But 34 is right that all of us have, at one time or another, walked through customs with something that we might have declared or had confiscated (even if just an extra bottle of liquor, or some clothes we might have purchased). I view this like speeding - if you get caught, you pay the penalty. But speeding is a misdemeanor, not a felony.
Smuggling drugs is a profoundly serious business. It is like money laundering which, frankly, is an enormous stain on klal yisroel. If any yid facilitates a transaction, he has to know what business he is aiding, and what the consequences are if he gets caught.
These boys should be extradited to Israel, and serve their time there. And they, like the money laundering crowd, should be an example. We must be an am kadosh if we are to fulfill our destiny as ohr lagoyim.
48
Oct 21, 2009 at 08:45 PM Dag Says:
“ Can you assure us that you and none of your friends and family member ever smuggled goods (not drugs) into Israel or into America/Canada/Europe? That’s exactly what they did. The boy added in his testimony that if they’ll have trouble at the customs, they’ll just leave the suitcases behind. They definitely do not deserve such a harsh punishment for smuggling goods.
The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals. ”
#34 "The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals." REALLY!! Why aren't you trying to get ever Jew out of every prison in America? Can the murderers move in with you? How about the child molesters?
49
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:42 PM Anonymous Says:
what happend with the boy who was already sentanced? is he in these terriable labor camps?
50
Oct 21, 2009 at 08:29 PM saneigor Says:
“ Japanese prison
Procedure
On confinement, prisoners are first classified according to gender, nationality, type of penalty, length of sentence, degree of criminality, and state of physical and mental health. They are then placed in special programs designed to treat individual needs.
Vocational and formal education are emphasized, as is instruction in social values. Most convicts engage in labor, for which a small stipend is set aside for use on release. Under a system stressing incentives, prisoners are initially assigned to community cells, then earn better quarters and additional privileges based on their good behavior.
sounds like an upgrade from meir shoreim ”
what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM!
51
Oct 21, 2009 at 08:29 PM saneigor Says:
“ Japanese prison
Procedure
On confinement, prisoners are first classified according to gender, nationality, type of penalty, length of sentence, degree of criminality, and state of physical and mental health. They are then placed in special programs designed to treat individual needs.
Vocational and formal education are emphasized, as is instruction in social values. Most convicts engage in labor, for which a small stipend is set aside for use on release. Under a system stressing incentives, prisoners are initially assigned to community cells, then earn better quarters and additional privileges based on their good behavior.
sounds like an upgrade from meir shoreim ”
what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM!
52
Oct 21, 2009 at 09:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #34 "The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals." REALLY!! Why aren't you trying to get ever Jew out of every prison in America? Can the murderers move in with you? How about the child molesters? ”
Given the pain and suffering caused by drugs, why would any respectable yid waste a penny or any effort to free drug smugglers. The government spends billions of dollars each year to detect and jail drug smuggelers and you are saying we should turn around and work to free them. What are you smoking?
53
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:09 PM formally Says:
“ what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM! ”
“ what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM! ”
where you their where did you get your info.
Anyway I am sure you would argue they should not sit in EY or the usa anyway
54
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ He speculated that this might be why the "antiquities" were hidden. Of course only a fool WANTS to pay taxes; if you can get away without paying them, why pay voluntarily? What conceivable obligation could one have to the Japanese government to pay it money, especially if one has no connection with Japan, and is just visiting for a few days? ”
If indeed they had declared the "antiquities" ans intended to depart Japan with them then, indeed, they would probably not have to pay duty. This crime has nothing to do with that and, sadly, just because you don't like taxes, doesn't mean you don't have to pay them.
55
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:12 PM Dag Says:
“ What are you talking about? They thought that if the Japanese decide to charge them money to bring the goods in, they would just abandon the goods at customs and let Bentzion deal with it. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly legal. If you don't bring the goods in, you don't owe anything on them, of course. ”
#46 Or they thought, IF we get caught, we'd just leave it. Did the declare that they had antiques?
56
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:12 PM formally Says:
“ what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM! ”
“ what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM! ”
where you their where did you get your info.
Anyway I am sure you would argue they should not sit in EY or the usa anyway
these bochurim are tzadikim why because they got into a trouble doing a crime makes one a tzadik? That is a new one where did you hear that from which rishon did you hear it
57
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If this is true, he admits that he realized that he might be breaking the law...and he did it anyway. Even when he knew that there might be trouble at customs, he STILL agreed to try to pass it through rather than declaring upon arrival. Hard to argue Pidyum Shuvuyim in such a case. ”
Hilchos Pidyon Shvium is even if the person in prison is at fult there is still a chiuv to give money to get him out
58
Oct 21, 2009 at 11:21 PM eli Says:
If only the younger boy would appeal, it would have helped all the 3 boys. The family forced the poor boy to cancel his appeal and promised that he will be home after 2 weeks, but this has caused him to start a bitter prison sentence with forced labor even on yom kipur.we can all see now that his transfer will take much longer and nothing was gained other then to make the boy suffer and potentialy damage the other 2 boys pending trial. Its so idiotic to accept a sentence, its basically agreeing guiltyness.
59
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #14 I never said I didn't care...this is a tragedy. These kids threw their lives away for nothing.
Kupat Hair once had a segulah miracle story that involved smuggling money into Israel (after a donation to Kupat the smuggled money wasn't found when the bags were searched). THAT attitude is the shame here, and it needs to change or this will become more and more common place. ”
You're so right and I think most people with half a brain agree with you . The days were you smuggled the border in old europe of yesteryear are long gone .. People , wake up you gonna get cought don't do it.
60
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:47 PM Clarity Says:
“ There is a big difference between smuggling goods to avoid customs (for which there is an ancient tradition), and smuggling illegal goods/drugs.
Specifically, smuggling cash (for example) does not necessarily harm people. Smuggling drugs is much worse, because the only possible outcome is that people will be harmed as a result.
Does this excuse the boys? No. But 34 is right that all of us have, at one time or another, walked through customs with something that we might have declared or had confiscated (even if just an extra bottle of liquor, or some clothes we might have purchased). I view this like speeding - if you get caught, you pay the penalty. But speeding is a misdemeanor, not a felony.
Smuggling drugs is a profoundly serious business. It is like money laundering which, frankly, is an enormous stain on klal yisroel. If any yid facilitates a transaction, he has to know what business he is aiding, and what the consequences are if he gets caught.
These boys should be extradited to Israel, and serve their time there. And they, like the money laundering crowd, should be an example. We must be an am kadosh if we are to fulfill our destiny as ohr lagoyim. ”
I am sorry, but to even deign to create an analog between those that inappropriately "smuggle in" a bottle of wine, and these boys, is incomprehensible.
To all the defenders: please note the article in which the boy stated that he was going to receive $1,500 for his efforts, another $1,500 for expenses, flight costs and hotel paid for in full. Let us estimate the total value to be $5,000 (perhaps a little less): can anyone here make an argument to say that the boys were THAT naive, THAT STUPID, to not know that something fishy was going on?
No one can. At least no one honest. But then again, honesty seems to be an underrated virtue around here.
61
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:42 PM Clarity Says:
“ #34 "The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals." REALLY!! Why aren't you trying to get ever Jew out of every prison in America? Can the murderers move in with you? How about the child molesters? ”
Hey Dag, nice to see you in these parts. I think we can use a re-clarification of Pidyon Shevuyim. I was always under the impression that real criminals (like these kids) are only "entitled" to pidyon shevuyim if they are going to be subject to inhumane conditions.
Has Rabbi Hoffman written on this topic on this site?
62
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:39 PM Clarity Says:
“ Given the pain and suffering caused by drugs, why would any respectable yid waste a penny or any effort to free drug smugglers. The government spends billions of dollars each year to detect and jail drug smuggelers and you are saying we should turn around and work to free them. What are you smoking? ”
I say we raise money to run programs in the affected yeshivas to teach yashrus, ehrlichkeit, dina d'malchusa.
63
Oct 21, 2009 at 10:39 PM Anonymous Says:
“ what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM! ”
“ what kind of fairy tail japanese prison are you dreaming of?
the real procedure:
everyone is locked up in individual cells no bigger than 5'x4'. must sit when told to do so, must stand when told to do so, must sleep when told to do so. may use toilet twice daily, once in morning and again in evening. beds consist of extremely thin "matress" (much thiner than what bochurim get in yeshiva). prisoners are allowed to get fresh air and excercise no more than twice a weak.
these bochurim even take the privledge of getting a weekly haircut (despite not needing it) just to get out of the cage some extra time.
pretty much, its gehenom on earth.
these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through and the bitachon they've shown throughout the whole ordeal. the chizuk they given each other and courage they show has been a tremendous kiddush HaShem toward the japanese prison guards along with their fine midot.
DON'T ANYBODY SPEAD BADLY ABOUT THEM! ”
"these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through"
I guess we shouldn't be surprised its come to this...two yiddeshe drug smugglers are "tzadikim" because of the difficult conditions under which they are being held in jail. By your logic, Dwek is the gadol ha'dor and we should be davening that on behalf of all his suffering, hashem should grant our tfilot.
64
Oct 22, 2009 at 08:09 AM ST Says:
“ "these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through"
I guess we shouldn't be surprised its come to this...two yiddeshe drug smugglers are "tzadikim" because of the difficult conditions under which they are being held in jail. By your logic, Dwek is the gadol ha'dor and we should be davening that on behalf of all his suffering, hashem should grant our tfilot. ”
"two yiddeshe drug smugglers are "tzadikim" because of the difficult conditions under which they are being held in jail. By your logic, Dwek is the gadol ha'dor "
these Bachorim are not smugglers, it doesnt matter if they did or did not know what the content of their baggages were. they had no intention of smuggling. they do not do it for a living, and for adventure.
maybe they did because they were naive, (if you were ever in Israel, you would know that there are lots of naive youngsters).
and maybe they did know that its not exactly legal, but they didnt know the extent of the crime. thats for sure, since the cosequence invovled out wieghts the benefit. (imagine I tell you, risk your life for six seven hundred dollars..).
So if they are not considerd as smugglers, then by sitting in jail and going thru what ever they are going thru, does purify them, and wipes out a lot of sins.
on the other hand, Dwek, is a pure theif, he stole the bank millions of dollars, and did it knowing all the consequenses, he knew that if caught, this will be a major Chilul Hashem (if ou study his crime, the chances of not getting caught are very slim..).
so how can you compare them both?
and yes, even if they are bad, we should pray that they become good, and do Tshuvah.
isnt that what Reb Meirs wife (Brurah) said, and Reb Meir agreed?
65
Oct 22, 2009 at 08:09 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:
“ these is very bazaar, nobody not one of the boys stop to think, hey a few boys to carry a suitcase and get a few grand just to fly to japan. alarm bells should have been ringing. Maybe because they are so insulated from the secular society, they do not hear the warnings all the time not to carry a suitcase for someone else.
maybe if they had internet accesses they could have done a search to see if that was normal or if they should be worried.
PS what ever happened to Ben-Tzion, is he free any repercussion does he still hold a nice spot in satmer? ”
I think you mean "bizzarre". It's a good thing they didn't try to get into Singapore. They'd be facing the death penalty R'L.
66
Oct 22, 2009 at 06:06 AM Megahouse Says:
“ What are you talking about? They thought that if the Japanese decide to charge them money to bring the goods in, they would just abandon the goods at customs and let Bentzion deal with it. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly legal. If you don't bring the goods in, you don't owe anything on them, of course. ”
Hey, Millehouse, this time your logic is somewhat at fault. The testimony shows that they knew something was in a false bottom. So the idea of "if the Japanese decide to charge them money" is screwy. They wanted to pass through Customs without the Japanese having any reason to "decide to charge them money". In other words, to put one over on the Japanese without giving them the chance to decide. I am disappointed in you, Millehouse. Usually your postion is hallucinatory, but at least there is some logic.
67
Oct 22, 2009 at 08:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "two yiddeshe drug smugglers are "tzadikim" because of the difficult conditions under which they are being held in jail. By your logic, Dwek is the gadol ha'dor "
these Bachorim are not smugglers, it doesnt matter if they did or did not know what the content of their baggages were. they had no intention of smuggling. they do not do it for a living, and for adventure.
maybe they did because they were naive, (if you were ever in Israel, you would know that there are lots of naive youngsters).
and maybe they did know that its not exactly legal, but they didnt know the extent of the crime. thats for sure, since the cosequence invovled out wieghts the benefit. (imagine I tell you, risk your life for six seven hundred dollars..).
So if they are not considerd as smugglers, then by sitting in jail and going thru what ever they are going thru, does purify them, and wipes out a lot of sins.
on the other hand, Dwek, is a pure theif, he stole the bank millions of dollars, and did it knowing all the consequenses, he knew that if caught, this will be a major Chilul Hashem (if ou study his crime, the chances of not getting caught are very slim..).
so how can you compare them both?
and yes, even if they are bad, we should pray that they become good, and do Tshuvah.
isnt that what Reb Meirs wife (Brurah) said, and Reb Meir agreed? ”
One must ask, while in Bnai Berak, would they drink something that was a Sofek if it was cholov yisroel? We know the answer would be Chos Vashalom.
Here they knew they were smuggling something in order not to pay taxes. This was in their OWN words. They knew it was illegal, or why smuggle? They might not have known the extent of the legality, but the issur is so much worse than drinking not cholov yisroel! Why is it that Jews are makbid on cholov yisroel, which is a chumra (there is NO issur of drinking cholov akum in the US and you can argue this until you are blue) but very lax on an actually aveyra, stealing??
68
Oct 22, 2009 at 06:00 AM Mr. Green Says:
“ Hilchos Pidyon Shvium is even if the person in prison is at fult there is still a chiuv to give money to get him out ”
"Hilchos Pidyon Shvium is even if the person in prison is at fult there is still a chiuv to give money to get him out"
Wow! I guess we should start a campaign to get Roman Polanski out of that Swiss (Nazi) prision so the American (anti-semitic) authorities won't get him.
69
Oct 22, 2009 at 05:24 AM Anonymous Says:
there are stories like this happen that happen all the time in this country, where some innocent person is duped into bringing in drugs into America. However, because the person isnt Jewish, nobody in this forum cares. We only care about Jews in trouble, Chasidim in particular.
This is not chesed to care about only ourselves. We must try and care more about other people as well.
70
Oct 22, 2009 at 01:59 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What fabrications? What makes you not believe the descriptions that we've all seen? ”
Just be glad these yungerleit are in Japan and not Pakistan or Turkey.
71
Oct 22, 2009 at 01:57 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What are you talking about? They thought that if the Japanese decide to charge them money to bring the goods in, they would just abandon the goods at customs and let Bentzion deal with it. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly legal. If you don't bring the goods in, you don't owe anything on them, of course. ”
"What's wrong with that?" What's wrong with that is that they were not smuggling an expensive watch, but killer drugs.
72
Oct 22, 2009 at 01:56 AM SorryStateOfYeshivaWorld Says:
“ #11 This comment is obscene. "there's no difference if they were at fault or not" This attitude has led to MANY scandals this past summer. We, as a community MUST condemn criminal activity, PERIOD! ”
Heimishe?!!! You call this heimishe?!!!
73
Oct 22, 2009 at 01:54 AM Anonymous Says:
“ He speculated that this might be why the "antiquities" were hidden. Of course only a fool WANTS to pay taxes; if you can get away without paying them, why pay voluntarily? What conceivable obligation could one have to the Japanese government to pay it money, especially if one has no connection with Japan, and is just visiting for a few days? ”
So ladies and gentlemen, Milhouse is justifying and rationalizing this CRIME. Is this what you teach YOUR children Milhouse??
74
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:29 AM Robert Says:
“ Can you assure us that you and none of your friends and family member ever smuggled goods (not drugs) into Israel or into America/Canada/Europe? That’s exactly what they did. The boy added in his testimony that if they’ll have trouble at the customs, they’ll just leave the suitcases behind. They definitely do not deserve such a harsh punishment for smuggling goods.
The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals. ”
its so sad to read this
also i read here yesterday or 2 days ago about some people saying shalit does not deserve rescue because he is not religious (not reayecha) ....
all jews deserve help regardless of their religiosity..period
both these boys and shalit.
75
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:
“ What are you talking about? They thought that if the Japanese decide to charge them money to bring the goods in, they would just abandon the goods at customs and let Bentzion deal with it. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly legal. If you don't bring the goods in, you don't owe anything on them, of course. ”
Mr. Milhouse,
Your logic defies that of any sane human being. Now you have aligned yourself with the promoters of criminal intent. Give it up, you have gone over the deep end.
76
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:14 AM Stamford Hilly Billy Says:
Instead of the 2 satmar rebbes wasting and expending their koychas and money fighting each other for power money and real estate, why don`t they use their resources for another court case and help these bouchrim in theirs. The Rebbe's should be at the forefront of efforts to help their chassidim and yet their names are never mentioned in the same sentence as these bouchrim.
Also although it can seem hard to belive some people really are naive, innocent and stupid enough to fall for the traps of the rashiyim that use them, that is why the use them, this can seem very diffucult for the average person who falls somewhere between these two types to understand
77
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:16 AM Anonymous Says:
have the community that Ben Tzion Muller belong to put him into cheirem
78
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:06 AM Reb Oosher Says:
“ What are you talking about? They thought that if the Japanese decide to charge them money to bring the goods in, they would just abandon the goods at customs and let Bentzion deal with it. What's wrong with that? It's perfectly legal. If you don't bring the goods in, you don't owe anything on them, of course. ”
Are you condoning the actions of these boys. Do you realize that such comments as yours are likely to encourage others to do likewise. Kindly stifle yourself for the greater good of klal yisrael.
79
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:24 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Hilchos Pidyon Shvium is even if the person in prison is at fult there is still a chiuv to give money to get him out ”
The chazal have spoken many times on the issue of pidyon shvuim, how the chiyuv arises under halacha and in what context. Anyone who has learned a daf gemorah knows that there is no chiyuv to raise funds to secure the release of an admitted drug smuggler whose arrest and jailing has nothing to do with his being a yid or shomer torah umitzvot. There are some on this board who villify yiddin for truthfull testifying about crimes by other public officials but somehow they have big rachmonis for these low-lifes who would bring drugs to the addicts in Japan.
80
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:16 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "these bochurim are tzadikim for what they've been through"
I guess we shouldn't be surprised its come to this...two yiddeshe drug smugglers are "tzadikim" because of the difficult conditions under which they are being held in jail. By your logic, Dwek is the gadol ha'dor and we should be davening that on behalf of all his suffering, hashem should grant our tfilot. ”
By your logic, Dwek is the gadol ha'dor ..... Since when are some great talmud chcham that you know all the halachot "DWEK" is a "moiser" see chosen mispat what is the halacha with such, there poor boys are suffering for the klal may they be acquited soon and reunite with their families...
81
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:13 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ It seems to me from the following Quote "We [decided] that if there’s any problem then we would leave it at customs, and if Ben-Tzion wanted it then he would pay customs the money…"
The Bochurim did not intend to smuggle or do any crime, & they thought that if it was not legal then customs would just take it away. SO FOR ALL YOU COMMENTATORS GIVING THE GUILTY VERDICT, PLEASE READ THE TESTIMONY MORE CARFULLY!!! ”
In other words they intended to smuggle something past customs unless they got caught.
That's asur.
82
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:11 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ He speculated that this might be why the "antiquities" were hidden. Of course only a fool WANTS to pay taxes; if you can get away without paying them, why pay voluntarily? What conceivable obligation could one have to the Japanese government to pay it money, especially if one has no connection with Japan, and is just visiting for a few days? ”
The obligation is from halachah. See Bava Kama 113.
83
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Japanese prison
Procedure
On confinement, prisoners are first classified according to gender, nationality, type of penalty, length of sentence, degree of criminality, and state of physical and mental health. They are then placed in special programs designed to treat individual needs.
Vocational and formal education are emphasized, as is instruction in social values. Most convicts engage in labor, for which a small stipend is set aside for use on release. Under a system stressing incentives, prisoners are initially assigned to community cells, then earn better quarters and additional privileges based on their good behavior.
sounds like an upgrade from meir shoreim ”
You're overlooking the fact that it's still prison.
84
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:25 AM torahyid Says:
“ We can do both.
Remember that smuggling violates halachah as well as secular law. We don't hesitate to make very clear that we disapprove of halachic violations in other areas. ”
how does it violate halocho
85
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:24 AM clear minded Says:
Don't believe What's event be discussed here!!! PIDYON SHIVYEM is a must all the time!!! If you know a little history u will know. Besides the fact, they didn't have a clue of any drugs, and the way they r captive by the Japan's jail system!
Please let all be MISSPOLEL for them UMEIN!
86
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:24 AM torahyid Says:
“ #14 I never said I didn't care...this is a tragedy. These kids threw their lives away for nothing.
Kupat Hair once had a segulah miracle story that involved smuggling money into Israel (after a donation to Kupat the smuggled money wasn't found when the bags were searched). THAT attitude is the shame here, and it needs to change or this will become more and more common place. ”
why, where's the issur for smuggling [unless there's a chance of getting caught and causing a chilul hashem]. but I suppose you declare any electronic device you may have in your suitcase when you enter israel as is the law.
87
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:10 AM dovid yoisef Says:
simple calculation. what if it were one of your sons were in prison versus what if one of your sons were hooked on drugs. both chas vesholom. both lo oleinu. both terrible.
88
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:54 AM ah shonada Says:
JUST A SMALL GLIMPSE OF WHAT GOES ON IN JAPANESE PRISONS
Three months after being put in a Japanese prison, Kevin M. Mara was about to sit down to a meal when the jailer called out his name.
Mr. Mara, 32 and Connecticut-born, says he then made a horrible mistake: he opened his eyes and looked up. That apparently broke a rule that before eating, each inmate should close his eyes and look downward.
And so, Mr. Mara's lawyers say, he was kept in solitary confinement for 10 days. There, they say, he was accused of "throwing books" and was stripped and restrained by a wide, thick leather belt around his waist, with both hands bound in steel-and-leather cuffs behind his back.
Mr. Mara spent 20 hours this way and was forced to lap up food from a bowl while lying prone on the floor.
In many ways, Japan's prison system is impressive. Overcrowding is not a problem, assaults or rapes among prisoners are rare, drugs and weapons are virtually nonexistent within prison walls, hardly anyone escapes and Japan has an exceptionally small proportion of its population in prison.
The problem, human rights campaigners say, is that the Japanese system achieves this record in part by draconian rules and mind-boggling regimentation.
"It smacks of totalitarianism," said Joanne Mariner, a prison specialist for Human Rights Watch, a New York-based human rights organization. "There's an obsession with rules and with absolute, strict obedience to rules. When they believe rules have not been followed, then there is arbitrary punishment."
Yuichi Kaido, Mr. Mara's lawyer, described it this way: "In the 19th century in the United States, it is said that the American prisoners were regarded as 'slaves of the state.' I think those words fit the present situation of Japanese prisons to some extent."
Now a growing number of former prisoners, as well as prisoners still serving time, are putting the spotlight on conditions by trying to sue the prison system for mistreatment. Mr. Mara, who is serving a four-and-a-half-year term for smuggling more than 25 pounds of marijuana into Japan, filed a suit last week asking for about $90,000 in damages. He is believed to be the first American to sue the Japanese prison authorities.
Japanese prisoners are planning suits as well, and there are now an estimated 125 lawsuits in the courts.
Mr. Mara's case seems to be unusual. Most prisoners follow the rules scrupulously, partly because of what happens to those who resist, said Toshikuni Murai, dean of the law department at Hitotsubashi University. As a result, many are released early on parole for good behavior.
But Mr. Murai, who has visited prisons in China, South Korea, Europe and the United States, says discipline in Japanese prisons is the strictest he has seen.
"In Japan," he said, "some prisons have no walls, just bamboo fences, and all the prisons have no armed guards with guns. But inside, inmates have no right to an appeals system, and they don't have the right to conversation on the job."
Japanese officials say prison conditions are not as bad as human rights organizations suggest. They acknowledge that rules are strict, but they emphasize that this is an effort to build discipline and teach inmates the importance of obeying society's rules so they will not get in trouble again.
Moreover, the strictness of the rules means that there is no chance for gangs to develop in Japanese prisons. And while inmates may be subject to the whim of guards, they are unlikely to be brutalized by other inmates.
To be sure, fights among inmates do happen, as Takashi Akemitsu can attest. Mr. Akemitsu, 69, who has spent nearly four decades in different prisons in Japan, was first jailed for theft and later killed another inmate in a fight.
On another occasion when Mr. Akemitsu got into a fight with an inmate, jailers rushed him to a "protection cell," where he was harnessed by a copper-plated leather belt with his hands cuffed to the belt.
"At night they came in and offered me a meal of rice and miso soup," said Mr. Akemitsu, who was released in May. "They helped me eat and drink, and then they tightened the belt further. I almost suffocated, and I vomited.
"They pushed on my back again, tightened the belt more and locked it. I thought they would kill me."
Mr. Akemitsu, who is planning a suit against prison authorities, said the jail was run like a military outfit. But he said he and his cellmates could still speak freely, play chess, write letters or read books during their free time.
Research by the Japan Federation of Bar Associations has found that prisoners can be punished for "looking around," "speaking without permission" or wiping away sweat without permission. When punished with solitary confinement, prisoners are sometimes forced to sit motionless for hours.
An official from the Justice Ministry, which oversees prisons, declined to comment on prison conditions or specific cases.
89
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:33 AM torahyid Says:
“ #34 "The mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim is even for real criminals." REALLY!! Why aren't you trying to get ever Jew out of every prison in America? Can the murderers move in with you? How about the child molesters? ”
what a ridiculous comparison! the criminals you mentioned are a danger for others if they would be released, these boys in what way could their release harm anyone.
90
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:04 PM Milhouse Says:
“ "What's wrong with that?" What's wrong with that is that they were not smuggling an expensive watch, but killer drugs. ”
They didn't know that, did they? So what difference does it make?
91
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:02 PM Milhouse Says:
“ One must ask, while in Bnai Berak, would they drink something that was a Sofek if it was cholov yisroel? We know the answer would be Chos Vashalom.
Here they knew they were smuggling something in order not to pay taxes. This was in their OWN words. They knew it was illegal, or why smuggle? They might not have known the extent of the legality, but the issur is so much worse than drinking not cholov yisroel! Why is it that Jews are makbid on cholov yisroel, which is a chumra (there is NO issur of drinking cholov akum in the US and you can argue this until you are blue) but very lax on an actually aveyra, stealing?? ”
"(there is NO issur of drinking cholov akum in the US "
Now you are clearly shown as an ignoramus. Drinking cholov akum is a clear issur, in the USA just as much as anywhere else. Cholov akum is TREIF. It is just as treif as chicken parmesan. But by you a whole siman in Shulchan Aruch has been cancelled. And yet smuggling, which is an ancient Jewish tradition, is by you an avera?! Olom hofuch ro'isi. It must be the cholov akum, which has been metamtem your lev and your moach.
92
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:14 PM Milhouse Says:
“ The chazal have spoken many times on the issue of pidyon shvuim, how the chiyuv arises under halacha and in what context. Anyone who has learned a daf gemorah knows that there is no chiyuv to raise funds to secure the release of an admitted drug smuggler whose arrest and jailing has nothing to do with his being a yid or shomer torah umitzvot. There are some on this board who villify yiddin for truthfull testifying about crimes by other public officials but somehow they have big rachmonis for these low-lifes who would bring drugs to the addicts in Japan. ”
"The chazal", huh? If you think pidyon shvuyim has something to do with whether someone's jailing has "to do with his being a yid or shomer torah umitzvot" then you clearly know nothing at all about the issue. All the cases of pidyon shvuyim in Europe had NOTHING to do with Jews jailed for being Jews or for keeping mitzvos. When the poretz put someone down the hole, do you think he cared whether the person was Jewish?!
93
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:11 PM NY Jew Says:
A few points to consider ...
1: The boys should be thankful that they were caught in Japan. Other countries in Asia have mandatory executions for trafficking far smaller quantities of drugs.
2: Play out the scenario as if they had not been caught. They'd have picked up the drugs in Amsterdam, delivered them in Tokyo, flown back to Israel, and made some ca$h in the process. Do you honestly think they'd not have jumped at the opportunity to do another delivery in the future? And do you not think that other yeshivah boys would not want some of the action for themselves? An adventure, see the world, make some easy money ... Now that these three are off the streets, and their imprisonment is very public, they aren't making additional drug runs, and other boys are probably thinking twice before getting involved themselves. That's a smart move for the Japanese authorities.
3: How would we react if three Japanese teenagers showed up in Israel or in NYC with suitcases of pills, drugs destined for our own children? Would the brains who comment on VIN be demanding their release from prison because they were "nebach" naive?
94
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:10 PM Milhouse Says:
“ its so sad to read this
also i read here yesterday or 2 days ago about some people saying shalit does not deserve rescue because he is not religious (not reayecha) ....
all jews deserve help regardless of their religiosity..period
both these boys and shalit. ”
NOBODY said Shalit should not be rescued. Not even the NK person said that. Stop making things up. But you cannot deny that "ve'ohavto lerei'acho komocho" applies only to "rei'acho", not to everybody with a Jewish mother.
95
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:15 PM Milhouse Says:
“ The obligation is from halachah. See Bava Kama 113. ”
The bochurim are not Japanese. What authority does the Japanese government have on them?
96
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:58 AM Milhouse Says:
“ One must ask, while in Bnai Berak, would they drink something that was a Sofek if it was cholov yisroel? We know the answer would be Chos Vashalom.
Here they knew they were smuggling something in order not to pay taxes. This was in their OWN words. They knew it was illegal, or why smuggle? They might not have known the extent of the legality, but the issur is so much worse than drinking not cholov yisroel! Why is it that Jews are makbid on cholov yisroel, which is a chumra (there is NO issur of drinking cholov akum in the US and you can argue this until you are blue) but very lax on an actually aveyra, stealing?? ”
Really? What is the issur?
97
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:58 AM MENSCH Says:
To most of the commenters: I think you are all disgraceful in your attitudes towards fellow Jews; especially, we have youngsters here, who in my own personal opinion were just naive (remember their lifestyle and where they come from, not being exposed to the outside world). They were obviously taken in by a scoundrel, who is the only one who should be sitting in jail. Not only for his crime, but for taking advantage of three youngsters, fellow chassidim. It is mind boggling how so many religiious(?) Jews could have NO feelings for their own. they are languishing in a Japanese jail, where their rules are not the same as typical democratic societies (even though they are a democratic society), but their customs are totally different than the West. I have read the story about this case and read where even the Japanese authorities agree that these boys are basically innocent, but because of certain laws, they weren't allowed to be released. So, the least you yidden have an obligation for, is to pray & say some Tehilim on their behalf. May G-D speed up their release. Remember pidyon shvuyim!
98
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:55 AM B Says:
Instead of hand waving, gevald crying, worldwide tehillim get-togethers, new decrees on women's modesty, and vilification of the Japanese, how about this for a practical solution ...
Ben-Tzion Miller and Chaim Rotter need to give themselves up, contact the local Japanese consulates, and offer to turn themselves in so that the three "innocent" boys can go free. Pretty simple.
99
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:52 AM Dag Says:
“ JUST A SMALL GLIMPSE OF WHAT GOES ON IN JAPANESE PRISONS
Three months after being put in a Japanese prison, Kevin M. Mara was about to sit down to a meal when the jailer called out his name.
Mr. Mara, 32 and Connecticut-born, says he then made a horrible mistake: he opened his eyes and looked up. That apparently broke a rule that before eating, each inmate should close his eyes and look downward.
And so, Mr. Mara's lawyers say, he was kept in solitary confinement for 10 days. There, they say, he was accused of "throwing books" and was stripped and restrained by a wide, thick leather belt around his waist, with both hands bound in steel-and-leather cuffs behind his back.
Mr. Mara spent 20 hours this way and was forced to lap up food from a bowl while lying prone on the floor.
In many ways, Japan's prison system is impressive. Overcrowding is not a problem, assaults or rapes among prisoners are rare, drugs and weapons are virtually nonexistent within prison walls, hardly anyone escapes and Japan has an exceptionally small proportion of its population in prison.
The problem, human rights campaigners say, is that the Japanese system achieves this record in part by draconian rules and mind-boggling regimentation.
"It smacks of totalitarianism," said Joanne Mariner, a prison specialist for Human Rights Watch, a New York-based human rights organization. "There's an obsession with rules and with absolute, strict obedience to rules. When they believe rules have not been followed, then there is arbitrary punishment."
Yuichi Kaido, Mr. Mara's lawyer, described it this way: "In the 19th century in the United States, it is said that the American prisoners were regarded as 'slaves of the state.' I think those words fit the present situation of Japanese prisons to some extent."
Now a growing number of former prisoners, as well as prisoners still serving time, are putting the spotlight on conditions by trying to sue the prison system for mistreatment. Mr. Mara, who is serving a four-and-a-half-year term for smuggling more than 25 pounds of marijuana into Japan, filed a suit last week asking for about $90,000 in damages. He is believed to be the first American to sue the Japanese prison authorities.
Japanese prisoners are planning suits as well, and there are now an estimated 125 lawsuits in the courts.
Mr. Mara's case seems to be unusual. Most prisoners follow the rules scrupulously, partly because of what happens to those who resist, said Toshikuni Murai, dean of the law department at Hitotsubashi University. As a result, many are released early on parole for good behavior.
But Mr. Murai, who has visited prisons in China, South Korea, Europe and the United States, says discipline in Japanese prisons is the strictest he has seen.
"In Japan," he said, "some prisons have no walls, just bamboo fences, and all the prisons have no armed guards with guns. But inside, inmates have no right to an appeals system, and they don't have the right to conversation on the job."
Japanese officials say prison conditions are not as bad as human rights organizations suggest. They acknowledge that rules are strict, but they emphasize that this is an effort to build discipline and teach inmates the importance of obeying society's rules so they will not get in trouble again.
Moreover, the strictness of the rules means that there is no chance for gangs to develop in Japanese prisons. And while inmates may be subject to the whim of guards, they are unlikely to be brutalized by other inmates.
To be sure, fights among inmates do happen, as Takashi Akemitsu can attest. Mr. Akemitsu, 69, who has spent nearly four decades in different prisons in Japan, was first jailed for theft and later killed another inmate in a fight.
On another occasion when Mr. Akemitsu got into a fight with an inmate, jailers rushed him to a "protection cell," where he was harnessed by a copper-plated leather belt with his hands cuffed to the belt.
"At night they came in and offered me a meal of rice and miso soup," said Mr. Akemitsu, who was released in May. "They helped me eat and drink, and then they tightened the belt further. I almost suffocated, and I vomited.
"They pushed on my back again, tightened the belt more and locked it. I thought they would kill me."
Mr. Akemitsu, who is planning a suit against prison authorities, said the jail was run like a military outfit. But he said he and his cellmates could still speak freely, play chess, write letters or read books during their free time.
Research by the Japan Federation of Bar Associations has found that prisoners can be punished for "looking around," "speaking without permission" or wiping away sweat without permission. When punished with solitary confinement, prisoners are sometimes forced to sit motionless for hours.
An official from the Justice Ministry, which oversees prisons, declined to comment on prison conditions or specific cases.
”
#88 the NYT article you cite was from 1996 and the Human Rights study was from data compiled in 1994, more than 15 years ago.
100
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:45 AM Anonymous Says:
“ So ladies and gentlemen, Milhouse is justifying and rationalizing this CRIME. Is this what you teach YOUR children Milhouse?? ”
Millhouse has been consistent in his principled argument that any crime under civil law including child molestation and drug smuggling is ok if it doesn't also violate halacha. The only crime in his view is being caught.
101
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:44 AM torahyid Says:
“ there are stories like this happen that happen all the time in this country, where some innocent person is duped into bringing in drugs into America. However, because the person isnt Jewish, nobody in this forum cares. We only care about Jews in trouble, Chasidim in particular.
This is not chesed to care about only ourselves. We must try and care more about other people as well. ”
i hope you would do more for your family than a stranger, but obviously you don't feel fellow jews are your family, shame on you.
102
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:41 AM torahyid Says:
“ One must ask, while in Bnai Berak, would they drink something that was a Sofek if it was cholov yisroel? We know the answer would be Chos Vashalom.
Here they knew they were smuggling something in order not to pay taxes. This was in their OWN words. They knew it was illegal, or why smuggle? They might not have known the extent of the legality, but the issur is so much worse than drinking not cholov yisroel! Why is it that Jews are makbid on cholov yisroel, which is a chumra (there is NO issur of drinking cholov akum in the US and you can argue this until you are blue) but very lax on an actually aveyra, stealing?? ”
cholov akum is an issur derabonon, not paying a foreign government from your own money is not stealing in the furthest stretch of imagination and not an aveiroh.
103
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:29 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ "(there is NO issur of drinking cholov akum in the US "
Now you are clearly shown as an ignoramus. Drinking cholov akum is a clear issur, in the USA just as much as anywhere else. Cholov akum is TREIF. It is just as treif as chicken parmesan. But by you a whole siman in Shulchan Aruch has been cancelled. And yet smuggling, which is an ancient Jewish tradition, is by you an avera?! Olom hofuch ro'isi. It must be the cholov akum, which has been metamtem your lev and your moach. ”
I object to the idea that something that the Bavli clearly says is asur, a position no rishon I'm aware of objects to, is an "ancient Jewish tradition".
104
Oct 22, 2009 at 12:54 PM A. Nuran Says:
“ The bochurim are not Japanese. What authority does the Japanese government have on them? ”
Let's start with the fact that they were in JAPAN where the JAPANESE government enforces JAPANESE law anyone who is in JAPANESE territory.
105
Oct 22, 2009 at 02:06 PM torahyid Says:
“ I object to the idea that something that the Bavli clearly says is asur, a position no rishon I'm aware of objects to, is an "ancient Jewish tradition". ”
I don't know how they learn gemoro in YU but in the gemoro you quoted BK 113 it is clear that a moches akum one is not obligated to pay if there is no chashash chilul Hashem (see rashi there).
106
Oct 22, 2009 at 02:14 PM PMO Says:
“ To most of the commenters: I think you are all disgraceful in your attitudes towards fellow Jews; especially, we have youngsters here, who in my own personal opinion were just naive (remember their lifestyle and where they come from, not being exposed to the outside world). They were obviously taken in by a scoundrel, who is the only one who should be sitting in jail. Not only for his crime, but for taking advantage of three youngsters, fellow chassidim. It is mind boggling how so many religiious(?) Jews could have NO feelings for their own. they are languishing in a Japanese jail, where their rules are not the same as typical democratic societies (even though they are a democratic society), but their customs are totally different than the West. I have read the story about this case and read where even the Japanese authorities agree that these boys are basically innocent, but because of certain laws, they weren't allowed to be released. So, the least you yidden have an obligation for, is to pray & say some Tehilim on their behalf. May G-D speed up their release. Remember pidyon shvuyim! ”
You cannot walk into any court of law and claim "Your Honor, I should be treated with leniency because my parents intentionally insured that I would be ignorant of the world and too stupid to realize when someone is taking advantage of me. My parents and teachers intentionally chose to keep me so ignorant and stupid that I never even knew that smuggling was illegal".
Sorry, but that is no defense. The Israeli government must and should push hard to trade the boys for the kingpins and let these boys serve there time in E"Y. What happened to these boys is TRAGIC on every level. However, while some are blaming the "barbaric" Japanese for enforcing the laws of their sovereign nation, why do we not look inward? Perhaps too much intentional ignorance is NOT good, NOT healthy, and puts those who travel abroad at great risk. Perhaps these boys are the unfortunate symptom of a problem in our communities.
While we fight hard to bring them back to E"Y, we must also re-examine the way we raise our children. We must be sure to educate them. We must instill a HEALTHY skepticism of anything "free". Finally, we must find ways to instill in them an ability to sense when something is not right. If your teenager does not know that flying to a foreign country to pick up a package and deliver it to another foreign country sounds fishy... YOU have failed as a parent and your child's teachers have failed them too.
107
Oct 22, 2009 at 04:20 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The bochurim are not Japanese. What authority does the Japanese government have on them? ”
The authority of their laws. Japan is not hefker.
108
Oct 22, 2009 at 03:32 PM Askupeh Says:
“ #88 the NYT article you cite was from 1996 and the Human Rights study was from data compiled in 1994, more than 15 years ago. ”
Very interesting Dag; in your comments: #2,#8,#11,#16,#31,#48,#55 you “choose” to see them, and all of Klal Yisroel in the worst light; yet here you are the first to defend Japanese human rights, and have no problem seeing these already punished kids suffer! I have faith in the Japanese people and hope and pray that they will also show their human side as they have shown it to our parents in Shanghai.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I just read all comments since I left my computer last night, and wanted to vomit especially after reading comment #79. But I calmed down after reading comment #97 and said to myself; “it was always like that”; there are Jews, and there are Jews. Thank Hashem that ALL people I Daven with in Shul with, think like #79, and hopefully those who don’t will open a Yiddish Sefer and see how far they are from Yiddishkeit. There is no question in my mind that all three Bocherim are Tzadikim and I would be Meshadech with them or their families without any question. If eleven months in Gehenom turns the soul clean, being in a Kur Habarzel for the time that they have been there, surely turned them into Tzadikim.
109
Oct 22, 2009 at 04:38 PM Anonymous Says:
“ To most of the commenters: I think you are all disgraceful in your attitudes towards fellow Jews; especially, we have youngsters here, who in my own personal opinion were just naive (remember their lifestyle and where they come from, not being exposed to the outside world). They were obviously taken in by a scoundrel, who is the only one who should be sitting in jail. Not only for his crime, but for taking advantage of three youngsters, fellow chassidim. It is mind boggling how so many religiious(?) Jews could have NO feelings for their own. they are languishing in a Japanese jail, where their rules are not the same as typical democratic societies (even though they are a democratic society), but their customs are totally different than the West. I have read the story about this case and read where even the Japanese authorities agree that these boys are basically innocent, but because of certain laws, they weren't allowed to be released. So, the least you yidden have an obligation for, is to pray & say some Tehilim on their behalf. May G-D speed up their release. Remember pidyon shvuyim! ”
Remember that this is not a case of mistaken identity or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course everyone feels badly for these three bochurim and monies are being raised, but until we change the underlying attitudes that "corrupted" these boys (I am not using that harsh word lightly, there is an indefensible attitude in Israel that "we are smarter than the world and can get away with acting anyway we choose.) these kinds of shameful problems will not go away.
Capiche?
110
Oct 22, 2009 at 05:26 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Remember that this is not a case of mistaken identity or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course everyone feels badly for these three bochurim and monies are being raised, but until we change the underlying attitudes that "corrupted" these boys (I am not using that harsh word lightly, there is an indefensible attitude in Israel that "we are smarter than the world and can get away with acting anyway we choose.) these kinds of shameful problems will not go away.
Capiche? ”
There are no "underlying attitudes that corrupted these boys”. Please stop it already.
111
Oct 22, 2009 at 05:54 PM Dave Says:
“ There are no "underlying attitudes that corrupted these boys”. Please stop it already. ”
How about:
1. It's ok to smuggle items into countries.
2. If someone looks like you you can trust any offer they make you.
112
Oct 22, 2009 at 04:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Very interesting Dag; in your comments: #2,#8,#11,#16,#31,#48,#55 you “choose” to see them, and all of Klal Yisroel in the worst light; yet here you are the first to defend Japanese human rights, and have no problem seeing these already punished kids suffer! I have faith in the Japanese people and hope and pray that they will also show their human side as they have shown it to our parents in Shanghai.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I just read all comments since I left my computer last night, and wanted to vomit especially after reading comment #79. But I calmed down after reading comment #97 and said to myself; “it was always like that”; there are Jews, and there are Jews. Thank Hashem that ALL people I Daven with in Shul with, think like #79, and hopefully those who don’t will open a Yiddish Sefer and see how far they are from Yiddishkeit. There is no question in my mind that all three Bocherim are Tzadikim and I would be Meshadech with them or their families without any question. If eleven months in Gehenom turns the soul clean, being in a Kur Habarzel for the time that they have been there, surely turned them into Tzadikim. ”
I would be the first one to run to them for a bracha if they ever come to the states.
Their mesiras nefesh is unparalleled.
113
Oct 22, 2009 at 03:02 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Instead of hand waving, gevald crying, worldwide tehillim get-togethers, new decrees on women's modesty, and vilification of the Japanese, how about this for a practical solution ...
Ben-Tzion Miller and Chaim Rotter need to give themselves up, contact the local Japanese consulates, and offer to turn themselves in so that the three "innocent" boys can go free. Pretty simple. ”
Not pretty and not simple.
114
Oct 22, 2009 at 06:37 PM Askupeh Says:
“ How about:
1. It's ok to smuggle items into countries.
2. If someone looks like you you can trust any offer they make you.
”
Both are not ok; now what? Why can't you have any feelings for a fellow Jew? Is the mind that rigid?
What they did is wrong, but can't you have Rachmoness on a Yid for crying out loud.
115
Oct 22, 2009 at 07:21 PM Anonymous Says:
To: 106 & #109 in response to #97 (Mensch)
You don't seem to get it. Of course, I don't think any of the young generation is really being raised the way they should be & especially in the chareidi world. They are so closed off from the rest of the world and yet want to partake in it, but are not taught to be prepared for it. That's not the point here. I really believe that they were innocent of these basic charges and the Japanese authorities themselves alluded to that, but because of their stringent laws, they would not release the boys. We could understand that every nation has its own rules and regulations and we are not discussing that; what I am saying is that the attitude of these Jews commenting here show no ahavat Yisrael or ahavat chinam, at least, for a fellow Jew. I don't think that anyone has the right to condemn them the way these commenters are doing. These children acted out of naivete, ignorance and youth. The question of where their parents were is a good one, but maybe they are just as sheltered as their sons. No more rechilusl, lashon horah. Maspik. Just pray for them.
116
Oct 22, 2009 at 07:19 PM Dave Says:
“ Both are not ok; now what? Why can't you have any feelings for a fellow Jew? Is the mind that rigid?
What they did is wrong, but can't you have Rachmoness on a Yid for crying out loud. ”
I can have rachmones on them, but if the culture that raised them doesn't address those issues, they will not be the last to end up in foreign prisons.
Let's be blunt. They are almost certainly going to end up spending significant jailtime. Even if they are able to be transferred to Israel to finish the sentences, the Japanese are unlikely to accept any kind of early release. And if Israel let them out early, it would pretty much guarantee that no future Israeli's would be able to serve their sentences outside of Japan.
And the tragedy is that some basic education could have avoided this.
If they had been raised to believe that financial shtick and smuggling were wrong, they would have recognized that what they were doing was wrong.
If they had been raised with an understanding of what things cost and how legitimate business is done, they would have realized that the story they were being fed was very very wrong.
If they had been raised to understand that not everyone who wears the same levush is a friend, they would have wondered why this was being offered.
And if they had been raised in an even slightly less insular manner, it is possible (although not sure) that they would have tried to learn the customs and laws of other countries before travelling there.
So yes, I have rachmones on them. I have none for their parents and teachers, who should be beating their chests for the way they failed those young men when they were growing up.
117
Oct 22, 2009 at 08:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Instead of hand waving, gevald crying, worldwide tehillim get-togethers, new decrees on women's modesty, and vilification of the Japanese, how about this for a practical solution ...
Ben-Tzion Miller and Chaim Rotter need to give themselves up, contact the local Japanese consulates, and offer to turn themselves in so that the three "innocent" boys can go free. Pretty simple. ”
very practical -can u be in charge arranging this one?
118
Oct 22, 2009 at 08:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ its so sad to read this
also i read here yesterday or 2 days ago about some people saying shalit does not deserve rescue because he is not religious (not reayecha) ....
all jews deserve help regardless of their religiosity..period
both these boys and shalit. ”
thats awful! how can anyone say that about the israeli's fighting for our country? maybe some religious men should go to the army instead of supposedly learning!
119
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:40 PM Ahem Says:
“ I can have rachmones on them, but if the culture that raised them doesn't address those issues, they will not be the last to end up in foreign prisons.
Let's be blunt. They are almost certainly going to end up spending significant jailtime. Even if they are able to be transferred to Israel to finish the sentences, the Japanese are unlikely to accept any kind of early release. And if Israel let them out early, it would pretty much guarantee that no future Israeli's would be able to serve their sentences outside of Japan.
And the tragedy is that some basic education could have avoided this.
If they had been raised to believe that financial shtick and smuggling were wrong, they would have recognized that what they were doing was wrong.
If they had been raised with an understanding of what things cost and how legitimate business is done, they would have realized that the story they were being fed was very very wrong.
If they had been raised to understand that not everyone who wears the same levush is a friend, they would have wondered why this was being offered.
And if they had been raised in an even slightly less insular manner, it is possible (although not sure) that they would have tried to learn the customs and laws of other countries before travelling there.
So yes, I have rachmones on them. I have none for their parents and teachers, who should be beating their chests for the way they failed those young men when they were growing up.
”
Oh, but you're making a mistake here. Their parents got the same teachings from THEIR parents. It's a lot deeper than just individuals. The entire system needs revamping at the core.
120
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:59 PM awacs Says:
A discussion for another day, however, I don't think child molesters should be in jail. Big waste. I think they be kept away from children at all costs (my current thinking involves a prominent tattoo) but why should their lives be thrown down the drain. Better to work, be a productive member of society and pay off - somehow - the debt to the victims. Prison is a last resort for them, if there is no other way to keep them away from kids.
121
Oct 22, 2009 at 09:59 PM formally Says:
WHY NO ANGER AT Ben-Tzion Miller and Chaim Rotter
question, have we heard from the adults that send them there to japan. Are they being quiet. All the anger should not be at japan they are enforcing their laws. Why have we not heard from them or the satmer community?
Funny 99% of the commentators are giving the adults who gave them the drugs a free pass and screaming shouting nonsense without condemning the real criminals
If what the boys say is true (maybe not not, they did smuggle drugs knowingly but had a story prepared in case they got caught) why does not the leaders take Ben-Tzion Miller and Chaim Rotter drag them if they must by the pious and put them on a plane to Japan. I am sure a deal can be arranged with japan that if they believe they boys and if we give them the kingpins the boys can go home and serve some time for smuggling to avoid taxes. If I would be Japan I would say want the boys give us the bigger fish
of course as always blame everybody but themselves.
122
Oct 23, 2009 at 12:24 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I would be the first one to run to them for a bracha if they ever come to the states.
Their mesiras nefesh is unparalleled. ”
Unparalleled, they are a true kiddush Hashem.
123
Oct 23, 2009 at 12:22 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I don't know how they learn gemoro in YU but in the gemoro you quoted BK 113 it is clear that a moches akum one is not obligated to pay if there is no chashash chilul Hashem (see rashi there). ”
So you just gave yourself away with your Sinas Chinum and slander of YU!
124
Oct 23, 2009 at 12:21 AM Anonymous Says:
“ A discussion for another day, however, I don't think child molesters should be in jail. Big waste. I think they be kept away from children at all costs (my current thinking involves a prominent tattoo) but why should their lives be thrown down the drain. Better to work, be a productive member of society and pay off - somehow - the debt to the victims. Prison is a last resort for them, if there is no other way to keep them away from kids. ”
There is no other away to keep them away from children. They belong in prison because of the lives they destroyed and of the other lives they will destroy if they are free. Besides don't worry about the cost, the other prisoners usually take care of them.
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Oct 23, 2009 at 12:03 PM Askupeh Says:
“ I can have rachmones on them, but if the culture that raised them doesn't address those issues, they will not be the last to end up in foreign prisons.
Let's be blunt. They are almost certainly going to end up spending significant jailtime. Even if they are able to be transferred to Israel to finish the sentences, the Japanese are unlikely to accept any kind of early release. And if Israel let them out early, it would pretty much guarantee that no future Israeli's would be able to serve their sentences outside of Japan.
And the tragedy is that some basic education could have avoided this.
If they had been raised to believe that financial shtick and smuggling were wrong, they would have recognized that what they were doing was wrong.
If they had been raised with an understanding of what things cost and how legitimate business is done, they would have realized that the story they were being fed was very very wrong.
If they had been raised to understand that not everyone who wears the same levush is a friend, they would have wondered why this was being offered.
And if they had been raised in an even slightly less insular manner, it is possible (although not sure) that they would have tried to learn the customs and laws of other countries before travelling there.
So yes, I have rachmones on them. I have none for their parents and teachers, who should be beating their chests for the way they failed those young men when they were growing up.
”
I too was raised in the same culture that raised them, and was raised entirely different then the way, you think Chareidisha Yiden are raised. You seem to think that education or rather lack of education is the problem. If that is so, then how come this happens, no less to educated people? Educated people can be very naïve, e.g. Einstein, who had no common sense; and on the other hand non educated people can have strong intuition. I myself am very educated, yet was very naive to the world around me, and thank G-d that I was that way, because it protected me from going astray.
Why this hammering Frum education, as if non-Frum education is better? Why trying to think like a Japanese, of what they will or won’t do, instead of thinking like a Jew? Your brother’s children made a bad mistake and everyone is crying; will you join us? Honestly I can’t sleep at night when I think of them, and can’t understand how anyone could.
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Oct 23, 2009 at 12:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If this is true, he admits that he realized that he might be breaking the law...and he did it anyway. Even when he knew that there might be trouble at customs, he STILL agreed to try to pass it through rather than declaring upon arrival. Hard to argue Pidyum Shuvuyim in such a case. ”
Reply to #8. When god gave us the mitzvah of pidyun shvuyim, he didn't tell us to judge first and then see if the one convicted is really innocent! We're suppose to help out every jew! God is the judge! And he's best at it!
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Oct 25, 2009 at 11:06 AM Clarity Says:
“ Reply to #8. When god gave us the mitzvah of pidyun shvuyim, he didn't tell us to judge first and then see if the one convicted is really innocent! We're suppose to help out every jew! God is the judge! And he's best at it! ”
Don't you love it when people just make things up?