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Jerusalem - Charedi Phone Reps in N. Israel Exposed to Indecent Calls |
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Teleall provides phone services for healthcare organizations, pharmacies, mineral water companies and Mifal Hapayis (Israel’s national lottery).
“Employing charedi women should not be taken for granted,” a leading askan in the North told Hebrew website NRG. “Because of modesty issues rabbonim do not recommend women work outside of the home – only in cases where the financial situation is pressing and the woman needs to go out and get a job. Such cases require halachic clarification and a she’elas rov.”
Following efforts by Shas Chairman Eli Yishai to boost charedi employment, the government selected Teleall for a pilot program at a contact center set up for charedi women in Tzfat. A few months ago a second phone center was set up in Tiberius.
But recently the program hit a snag, bringing rabbonim from the North and Jerusalem into the fray. “I received a call from a charedi woman from the North asking me for guidance regarding an appalling incident that happened to her at work,” Rav Asher Idan, chairman of Kol Hana’ar, told an NRG reporter.
Though he lives in Jerusalem, Rav Idan says other families from the North have also turned to him, since he is considered an authority on this area of halacha. “She answered a call that was supposed to go to a pharmacy,” recalls Rav Idan. “On the other end of the line was a man of about 60, who wanted advice on pills designed to increase virility. He asked her what it does. Because she was unfamiliar with the product he had to explain it to her and then proceeded to ask detailed questions. Only when she realized what he was referring to did she hang up on him.”
When the case became known, similar accounts from other charedi women in Tzfat and Tiberius came to light. “I told a woman who asked me directly that she should quit her job,” said Rav Idan. “It’s analogous to the halacha on forbidden relations. If a married women is induced to speak about such matters openly with a man not in her husband’s presence, it’s considered gilui arayos.” Phone calls of this nature can be especially harmful for young women, both married and unmarried, he said.
The phone system enables representatives to switch problematic calls to another station, but that option would be likely to cause another woman to stumble.
According to Teleall CEO Gabi Arad, “This is a message service, therefore the phone representatives are not required to answer professional questions, but merely to pass the message on to the customer. Nevertheless, when the company became aware of the problem we made sure the calls would not go to the charedi representatives, but to other women.”
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Read Comments (71) — Post Yours »
1
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:32 PM Seriosuly? Says:
Ha ha. A woman needs to ask a Rav before she takes a job outside of the house. What are we the Taliban? Tell that to the female doctors and lawyers in my shul.
2
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:32 PM Anonymous Says:
Depending on what the man said, a question about ED and medications used to treat that condition posed to a healthcare and pharmacy call center is not sordid or indecent. It's a medical condition.
3
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:39 PM Aharon Says:
All this over a wrong number?
4
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:02 PM Liepa Says:
“ Depending on what the man said, a question about ED and medications used to treat that condition posed to a healthcare and pharmacy call center is not sordid or indecent. It's a medical condition. ”
Nonetheless, these women at the call center aren't physicians or PA's they are more like customer service or something simillar therefore discussing things like Viagra etc between a male and a married frum female is according to Rav Idan gilui arayos.
5
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:57 PM Midwestern Guy Says:
We must be missing something here. A person could get such a call (wrong number) at their own home. And, as far as "modesty issues" go, my understanding is that a lot of these women work at home anyway. I'm not at all sure what this "Askan" is talking about.
6
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:56 PM ST Says:
“ Ha ha. A woman needs to ask a Rav before she takes a job outside of the house. What are we the Taliban? Tell that to the female doctors and lawyers in my shul. ”
Yes, they should.
becoming an MD, is actually dangerous to ones spiritual being.
you will have to attend college, and that exposes you to lots of garbage.
so a Rav should be consulted prior to making such descions.
7
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:51 PM Use Your Head Says:
What is "appalling" is not that the woman was exposed to a question regarding virility pills. There's nothing sordid about a man asking a question about medication. What is appalling is that the woman had no clue as to what was being discussed and therefore needed to ask detailed questions about it. This is just silly! Who doesn't know what Viagra is nowadays? Unless you're living in a cave, this is common knowledge. This is a complete and utter joke.
8
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:49 PM joe Says:
I never relized how delicate our women are.
9
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Ha ha. A woman needs to ask a Rav before she takes a job outside of the house. What are we the Taliban? Tell that to the female doctors and lawyers in my shul. ”
yes madam evrything needs to confirm to halachah, like it or not?
10
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Yes, they should.
becoming an MD, is actually dangerous to ones spiritual being.
you will have to attend college, and that exposes you to lots of garbage.
so a Rav should be consulted prior to making such descions. ”
Maybe they shouldn't learn taharas hamishpacha either since that contains improper material. Also, Maybe they shouldn't learn Tanach since that also has many stories of a mature matter.
11
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:07 PM Anonymous Says:
This shows the perverse logic of the chareidi position regaring the role of women outside the home. The simple answer, and the approach that would be taken by any normal woman when confonted by such calls is to simply HANG UP. But no, thats too complicated for these chaeidim who are looking for every possible excuse to keep women in the dark and C'V, have them work and contribute to the family's parnassah. From their perspective, "hanging up the phone and not engaging in the conversation" is too much trouble and not a viable option. Instead, lets lock women away and not allow them to work. Instead, we will continue to send our rabbonim to the U.S. several times a year to schneur money from Chareidi kehilot in the U.S. and Europe to "feed the starving families" who are starving because of chumrahs imposed by those very same rabbonim. This is about subordination of women, not about tzinius.
12
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:45 PM Chaim Says:
So send the men to work - you know like the Rambam, R' Yochanan Hasandlor, the Chafetz Chaim, the Abarbanel, the Ramban
13
Oct 29, 2009 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:
the first averah in the torah was putting too many chumras on women. they can handle it. its the men that can't.
14
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:22 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Nonetheless, these women at the call center aren't physicians or PA's they are more like customer service or something simillar therefore discussing things like Viagra etc between a male and a married frum female is according to Rav Idan gilui arayos. ”
Often people at a call center need to know what the person is calling about in order to direct the caller to the correct place. What should the caller say: " I have a question about something unmentionable. Can you transfer me to the unmentionable department." Why should the caller have to feel shamed because a certain segment of the population believes that everything is sexual and dirty?
15
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:19 PM MDshweks Says:
Halachacly speaking this Rav is definately wrong. If she is doing her job profesionaly answering about a medical condition in medical terms - there's nothing wrong about it!
If she's the type that's uncomfortable (or too confortable), then she has an ethical question, which doesn't have to be a federal case...
and for her to "hang up on him" is out right stealing from her employer! that's ok?!
16
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:28 PM Seriosuly Says:
“ Yes, they should.
becoming an MD, is actually dangerous to ones spiritual being.
you will have to attend college, and that exposes you to lots of garbage.
so a Rav should be consulted prior to making such descions. ”
So a woman needs to ask a man's permission (i.e. a Rabbi) before taking a job outside the house? With all due respect, it seems kind of backwards to me. I suspect alot of Rabbis who discourage women from becoming doctors and lawyers feel threatened by the fact that there are orthodox women in the world who are far more educated than they will ever be and can actually contribute to the family making a decent living so that the family doesn't have to go on WIC, Section 8, Welfare, Food stamps, etc....... BTW, I don't think it is mentally or spiritually healthy for a woman to not get an education and to simply "stay home with the kids" all day. While my wife is an educated professional with a post-grad degree, my sister-in-law is is not (I don't even think she has any education past high school) and she stays home with the kids all day my brother "learns in a kollel." They are dirt poor. I don't think that this is the proper way to live. Pirkei Avos says you need to get a profession and make a living. I don't understand why 70% of Jews who live in a certain borough in NYC think they are exempt from this requirement.
17
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:30 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Maybe they shouldn't learn taharas hamishpacha either since that contains improper material. Also, Maybe they shouldn't learn Tanach since that also has many stories of a mature matter. ”
Torah Magineh Umatzleh. Torah Hu Velilmoid Ani Tzorich. Doing what the Ribboineh Shel Oilom wants, cannot cause any harm.
18
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:
“ yes madam evrything needs to confirm to halachah, like it or not? ”
halacha yes,
hashkofah no. This looks like a case of applying extra stringent haskafah to halachah. So now the women can't work and the men won't work. At least by the taliban the men work, but I guess we have to show that we are more stringent than them.
19
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:
Pardon my ignorance. Can someone please explain to me what is an "askan?" What is the job description, what educational background do these individuals have.
20
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Yes, they should.
becoming an MD, is actually dangerous to ones spiritual being.
you will have to attend college, and that exposes you to lots of garbage.
so a Rav should be consulted prior to making such descions. ”
I can tell you that starting from my great-grand parents down to my last adult cousin, everyone in my family received college education from universities and no-one turned into a devil or proclaimed himself to be the next moshiach yet. Religions that fear their followers gaining knowledge from outside world are weak religions. Take a look a Buddhism, Islam, Paganism who all have strict mind controls over their followers.
This story is another example of radicalism in today's Jewish orthodoxy. This type of control over individuals by their Rabbis reminds me of Utah and Texas Christian cults. These rabbis expect the men to learn in shuls all day, while there are 3 or 6 kids to feed, and now they control where a woman should and should not work when she is replacing the universal role of a husband to be the provider. I feel so bad for people that are stuck in such ridiculous lifestyles.
21
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Yes, they should.
becoming an MD, is actually dangerous to ones spiritual being.
you will have to attend college, and that exposes you to lots of garbage.
so a Rav should be consulted prior to making such descions. ”
Of course! Hashem definitley wants us all, if at all possible, to stay in our houses with our shades closed, our telephones turned off, and preferably blindfolded and with ear plugs lest we ch'v become exposed to bad things. Only if the financial situation becomes difficult should we perhaps open outr eyes, but even then, only after asking a Rov.
This is how crazy the "frumme" have become...WAKE UP...Hashem wants us to live in this world, with the world, and to be mekadesh shem shomayim in the open.
And there's nothing at all wrong for a woman to help out a man (who is likely hundreds of miles away and anonymous) with his midication questions...if you don;t know the answer, pass the call on to somebody else...no shailoh required.
22
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:37 PM SK Says:
“ Yes, they should.
becoming an MD, is actually dangerous to ones spiritual being.
you will have to attend college, and that exposes you to lots of garbage.
so a Rav should be consulted prior to making such descions. ”
I did :) I consulted my Rov before starting med school. of course there is lots of "garbage" but it is worth it in the end
23
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:36 PM Askupeh Says:
“ This shows the perverse logic of the chareidi position regaring the role of women outside the home. The simple answer, and the approach that would be taken by any normal woman when confonted by such calls is to simply HANG UP. But no, thats too complicated for these chaeidim who are looking for every possible excuse to keep women in the dark and C'V, have them work and contribute to the family's parnassah. From their perspective, "hanging up the phone and not engaging in the conversation" is too much trouble and not a viable option. Instead, lets lock women away and not allow them to work. Instead, we will continue to send our rabbonim to the U.S. several times a year to schneur money from Chareidi kehilot in the U.S. and Europe to "feed the starving families" who are starving because of chumrahs imposed by those very same rabbonim. This is about subordination of women, not about tzinius. ”
Don't worry, they send their wives to work AND they come Shnor money in America. The only issue here is Tzniyuss. Someone suggested that these woman should JUST hang up. It reminds me of a song "Just say no to drugs". The issue here is if we are allowed to put our women in a position to fall prey to a smooth talker.
24
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:
This is the real world which apparently SOME Charedim have great difficulty in functioning in. These ULTRA sensitive people need to get real.
25
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:34 PM mosh Says:
“ This shows the perverse logic of the chareidi position regaring the role of women outside the home. The simple answer, and the approach that would be taken by any normal woman when confonted by such calls is to simply HANG UP. But no, thats too complicated for these chaeidim who are looking for every possible excuse to keep women in the dark and C'V, have them work and contribute to the family's parnassah. From their perspective, "hanging up the phone and not engaging in the conversation" is too much trouble and not a viable option. Instead, lets lock women away and not allow them to work. Instead, we will continue to send our rabbonim to the U.S. several times a year to schneur money from Chareidi kehilot in the U.S. and Europe to "feed the starving families" who are starving because of chumrahs imposed by those very same rabbonim. This is about subordination of women, not about tzinius. ”
and your position about women from where is it derived from? can you refer me to your sources, books, tv shows, orphreh winthry? so i can be more 'enlightened' of how to go about with women
26
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:
“ We must be missing something here. A person could get such a call (wrong number) at their own home. And, as far as "modesty issues" go, my understanding is that a lot of these women work at home anyway. I'm not at all sure what this "Askan" is talking about. ”
Good point. They shouldn't have telephones.
27
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:40 PM Gefilte Fish Says:
“ the first averah in the torah was putting too many chumras on women. they can handle it. its the men that can't. ”
Indeed, she handled it extremely well...
28
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:44 PM shmeral Says:
“ Of course! Hashem definitley wants us all, if at all possible, to stay in our houses with our shades closed, our telephones turned off, and preferably blindfolded and with ear plugs lest we ch'v become exposed to bad things. Only if the financial situation becomes difficult should we perhaps open outr eyes, but even then, only after asking a Rov.
This is how crazy the "frumme" have become...WAKE UP...Hashem wants us to live in this world, with the world, and to be mekadesh shem shomayim in the open.
And there's nothing at all wrong for a woman to help out a man (who is likely hundreds of miles away and anonymous) with his midication questions...if you don;t know the answer, pass the call on to somebody else...no shailoh required. ”
what hashem wants from us is not your what your personel opinon thinks, you have mussar sforim S'U..and there you can see what hashem wants from us..not what you think he wants from us, is what he wants from 'us
29
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:39 PM Anonymous Says:
To number 16: Your sister-in-law and her husband are not dirt poor. You are dirt poor because you think that a modest income is your key to nachas and happiness. They are richer than you will ever be because they devote their lives to Torah--something you neither understand or respect.
30
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:38 PM Gefilte Fish Says:
You're an adult, grow up! answer the question in a very professional way, and gegangen vaater!
31
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:54 PM Shimon Says:
“ You're an adult, grow up! answer the question in a very professional way, and gegangen vaater! ”
Yes my wife deals with this on a daily basis, It's sad and many of these men need a refuah shelaima
32
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:49 PM Anonymous Says:
and you'll decide what chumres to put or not to put?
33
Oct 29, 2009 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:
Its alittle confusing, here they force the government to give the chareidi women good jobs & when they get the job, they complain about the work they have to do. Or you have the cake or you eat it, you cant have it both ways, or you want to work for govenment or not!!
34
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:02 PM Seriously? Says:
“ To number 16: Your sister-in-law and her husband are not dirt poor. You are dirt poor because you think that a modest income is your key to nachas and happiness. They are richer than you will ever be because they devote their lives to Torah--something you neither understand or respect. ”
To #29, I would have no problem if they had a "modest income." The problem is that they have virtually no income. They live of the fat of the land including WIC, food stamps, section 8... (which my tax dollars have to pay for). I always think its funny when certain people with a hashkafah more to the right than me put me down but are always more than willing to solicit me for money on a non-stop basis. G-d helps those who help themselves. Helping yourself means getting an education. It's as simple as that. While it's easier to sit back and learn in Kollel all day instead of entering the real world, acting like a man, and supporting your family, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. Also, treating women in a subordinate manner b\c you feel threatened by them has no place in the orthodox world. But to each his own.
35
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:00 PM chaim Says:
“ So a woman needs to ask a man's permission (i.e. a Rabbi) before taking a job outside the house? With all due respect, it seems kind of backwards to me. I suspect alot of Rabbis who discourage women from becoming doctors and lawyers feel threatened by the fact that there are orthodox women in the world who are far more educated than they will ever be and can actually contribute to the family making a decent living so that the family doesn't have to go on WIC, Section 8, Welfare, Food stamps, etc....... BTW, I don't think it is mentally or spiritually healthy for a woman to not get an education and to simply "stay home with the kids" all day. While my wife is an educated professional with a post-grad degree, my sister-in-law is is not (I don't even think she has any education past high school) and she stays home with the kids all day my brother "learns in a kollel." They are dirt poor. I don't think that this is the proper way to live. Pirkei Avos says you need to get a profession and make a living. I don't understand why 70% of Jews who live in a certain borough in NYC think they are exempt from this requirement. ”
i suspect you are a totally assmilated yid who has no inkling of dass torah and your view of judaism is thru the non torah decadant world so how come your giving your secular opinion to a torah site?
37
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Depending on what the man said, a question about ED and medications used to treat that condition posed to a healthcare and pharmacy call center is not sordid or indecent. It's a medical condition. ”
Are all of you naive? the purpose of the call of this sicko was obvious "when she realized what he was referring to".
38
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:18 PM MDshweks Says:
“ what hashem wants from us is not your what your personel opinon thinks, you have mussar sforim S'U..and there you can see what hashem wants from us..not what you think he wants from us, is what he wants from 'us ”
"not what you think he wants from us, is what he wants from 'us” - the problem is a lot of aledged "frumkeit" isn't what Hashem wants from us, and look how this Rav says it's "Halachacly" wrong when that is NOT the case,
and what about men answering women?
and he doesn't even rebuke her from "hanging up" on the guy in the midst of her job!
Is that what Hashem wants???
39
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:
reply to #21 the lifestyle you call "crazy" is how the chafetz chaim writes one should live. you remind me of a mentally unstable person I know who once responded to someone calling him crazy that in todays day & age being called normal isn't much of a compliment!
40
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:44 PM SimchaB Says:
Reply to #21: I suspect you never asked a shailoh in your life! What are your qualifications to make such an authoritative statement? When was the last time you opened up a Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer? If ever! So stop pontificating!
41
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:37 PM WolfishMusings Says:
“ Are all of you naive? the purpose of the call of this sicko was obvious "when she realized what he was referring to". ”
People calling about treatment for ED are sickos??
The Wolf
42
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:34 PM Handy Says:
“ Are all of you naive? the purpose of the call of this sicko was obvious "when she realized what he was referring to". ”
She should be fired.
The response to a valid call to your service, which provides information regarding pharmaceutical products is:
1. To not know what the drug was, and had to ask the caller themselves to explain it to her.
2. To hang up the phone "when she realized what he was referring to"?
Horrible:
1. She is incompetant and untrained/unqualified to be working at a call center without knowing the information she is supposed to provide.
2. She has a terrible work ethic and unforgivable demeanor to be so negligent in her duties as to hang up on a valid caller just because she's too tzniyus for him.
Why did she take the job?
And why was she even hired without education, training and knowledge on the subject?
I would be very upset if I was the male caller - I pay to receive a service, and I am hung up on by someone who doesn't feel like doing their job?
Chillul hashem for her to even complain like that - everyone will think twice now about giving frum people jobs, as they can decide what they don't want to do and can treat customers however they like.
43
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:56 PM Anonymous Says:
“ She should be fired.
The response to a valid call to your service, which provides information regarding pharmaceutical products is:
1. To not know what the drug was, and had to ask the caller themselves to explain it to her.
2. To hang up the phone "when she realized what he was referring to"?
Horrible:
1. She is incompetant and untrained/unqualified to be working at a call center without knowing the information she is supposed to provide.
2. She has a terrible work ethic and unforgivable demeanor to be so negligent in her duties as to hang up on a valid caller just because she's too tzniyus for him.
Why did she take the job?
And why was she even hired without education, training and knowledge on the subject?
I would be very upset if I was the male caller - I pay to receive a service, and I am hung up on by someone who doesn't feel like doing their job?
Chillul hashem for her to even complain like that - everyone will think twice now about giving frum people jobs, as they can decide what they don't want to do and can treat customers however they like. ”
I think you are being a little too harsh. This doesn't sound like a help desk job. It sounds like a call center for taking messages and forwarding calls to the right office. She definitely should have not have hung up, but her training (with the employer knowing these are chareidis) should have included the fact that people may call with questions about sexually-related conditions or about particular parts of the male or female anatomy and who they should handle those calls.
44
Oct 29, 2009 at 02:49 PM Anonymous Says:
At least we know the chairman of Kol Ha'naar is one ...
45
Oct 29, 2009 at 03:23 PM Handy Says:
“ I think you are being a little too harsh. This doesn't sound like a help desk job. It sounds like a call center for taking messages and forwarding calls to the right office. She definitely should have not have hung up, but her training (with the employer knowing these are chareidis) should have included the fact that people may call with questions about sexually-related conditions or about particular parts of the male or female anatomy and who they should handle those calls. ”
It's a call center for service related calls. Their customers are pharmacies, health care organizations, etc. The call center does not "forward calls to the right office" they are the office where the calls are sent to, so the individual companies do not need to staff telephone personnel.
Same as amazon or best buy, routing service calls to India.
Anyone working for the indian call center who receives a call "I have a question about the DVD player I purchased" and the call-rep replies "I'm sorry, what is a DVD? I don't know what that is, we don't have this in my village can you explain how it works?" should not be allowed to work for the call center.
That's simply unacceptable ignorance and an ill-prepared employee who is unqualified to do the job.
46
Oct 29, 2009 at 03:21 PM Anonymous Says:
If a Chareidi woman was incapable of providing a simple answer or referral to this question without getting into details she might not be comfortable with than she had no business leaving her home without adult supervision. What kind of crazy excuse is it to invoke tzinius when there were so many possible ways of resolving the issue without a discussion of the sexual details.
47
Oct 29, 2009 at 03:14 PM Abe Says:
I'm not exactly sure what the rabonim and frum women were thinking before the women started employment in this company. The article clearly states that "Teleall provides phone services for healthcare organizations, pharmacies, mineral water companies and Mifal Hapayis." What the heck were they thinking before they took the job? Did they really think people will only call about headaches and baby formula.
48
Oct 29, 2009 at 03:55 PM Handy Says:
“ Its alittle confusing, here they force the government to give the chareidi women good jobs & when they get the job, they complain about the work they have to do. Or you have the cake or you eat it, you cant have it both ways, or you want to work for govenment or not!! ”
The chareidi women (and their frum boss) should take on a contract to provide call services for a 24/7 meat company.
Then, when they get a call asking:
a) what times on Saturday the stores are open
b) what seafood products are available
c) any calls coming in at mincha time should be unanswered
d) same for shabbos and yom tov
- they should subsequently complain to the government that they were insulted about the non-kosher questions, and that their religious sentiments were violated by people asking about store hours on a saturday. And also they should sue for being insulted and abused.
Really - their rabbi should be the one rebuking them for making frum people look petty and incompetant. The next time a PHD in Chemistry applies for a job at a chemical company, the interviewer will see a kippa and say "oh, I know you're just going to find a reason to sue us and file complaints when one of our female employees doesn't wear a wig". This is so counterproductive to our kehillah...
This woman should get a mark in her employment file along with her termination letter...
49
Oct 29, 2009 at 03:31 PM Askupeh (Part 1) Says:
Before everyone gets carried away let’s put things in perspective. The way I see it (correct or not) is that this call center answers to numerous requests and among them Viagra. A Woman rightfully detected in a callers question that his questions were meant to get into a dirty conversation. That’s how she felt and who can question her? Everyone who has been on planet earth for a while knows that phony calls abound. Before the days of Caller-ID (where people knew that they won’t get caught) we used to get them very often. I personally have gotten the dirtiest phony calls imaginable and yes, I hade to fight with my Yeitzer Horah to bang the phone down. I don’t know until this day if it was someone who knows me who tried to seduce me or it was a random phony call. My point is that Rabbonim have a right to be afraid. They shouldn’t be labeled Taliban for trying to do what is right.
As to asking a Sheileh, I think this Rov got a little carried away due to the situation he put himself in. Nobody I know, me included ever asked a Sheiloh if we should send our wives to work. This is a personal decision between husband and wife just like many other decisions a person needs to make between
50
Oct 29, 2009 at 03:32 PM Askupeh (Part 2) Says:
On Frumkeit there is a famous debate what should be the proper approach to Yiddishkeit. Some think that everything the Torah says is Osur (forbidden) is forbidden but everything else is Muttar (permissible), which this approach might lead someone to be a Novol Be’reshus Hatorah which can end up with pulling a person down the drain. The other approach is that everything the Torah says is Muttar (permissible) is permissible, and everything else is forbidden. This might lead a person to become a Taliban. The right approach is somewhere buried in between; where exactly, is for us mortals to figure out. That’s what we are here for to do the Rotzoin Haboireh; everything else is commentary. Let’s not be too hard on a Rov who only wants to do what is right.
51
Oct 29, 2009 at 04:54 PM Garet Benson Says:
It seems to me many of the talkback writers here were a bit quick to pass judgment. Based on the comments above I get the impression most of the writers may not be as familiar with charedi mores in Eretz Yisroel as they think they are. Yes, many charedim in EY are very isolated from the general society, often by choice. Is that really so backwards? Given a choice between secular Israeli culture and a sequestered charedi lifestyle, I certainly know which I'd prefer.
52
Oct 29, 2009 at 05:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Before everyone gets carried away let’s put things in perspective. The way I see it (correct or not) is that this call center answers to numerous requests and among them Viagra. A Woman rightfully detected in a callers question that his questions were meant to get into a dirty conversation. That’s how she felt and who can question her? Everyone who has been on planet earth for a while knows that phony calls abound. Before the days of Caller-ID (where people knew that they won’t get caught) we used to get them very often. I personally have gotten the dirtiest phony calls imaginable and yes, I hade to fight with my Yeitzer Horah to bang the phone down. I don’t know until this day if it was someone who knows me who tried to seduce me or it was a random phony call. My point is that Rabbonim have a right to be afraid. They shouldn’t be labeled Taliban for trying to do what is right.
As to asking a Sheileh, I think this Rov got a little carried away due to the situation he put himself in. Nobody I know, me included ever asked a Sheiloh if we should send our wives to work. This is a personal decision between husband and wife just like many other decisions a person needs to make between ”
Why are you assuming that "his questions were meant to get into a dirty conversation." ? People with sensitive conditions have enough to deal with without the presumption they are "dirty." Why always assume the worst?
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Oct 29, 2009 at 05:05 PM Anonymous Says:
So let them live in monastaries and leave the rest of us alone!
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Oct 29, 2009 at 05:21 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Why are you assuming that "his questions were meant to get into a dirty conversation." ? People with sensitive conditions have enough to deal with without the presumption they are "dirty." Why always assume the worst? ”
Because this article states that: “In one case a phone worker found herself answering UNSEEMLY questions about virility pills”
Another: “I received a call from a charedi woman from the North asking me for guidance regarding an APPALLING incident that happened to her at work,” Rav Asher Idan, chairman of Kol Hana’ar, told an NRG reporter”.
Another: “He asked her what it does”.
It is the woman who thought that something was wrong with these calls, and who can question them? This world has many people with sensitive conditions, and also many with other conditions, In Tzu Borsht Darf Men Nish Kein Tzeiner.
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Oct 29, 2009 at 05:32 PM Jersey Yid Says:
Why can a man answer questons about a women's reproductive system, but not vice versa. Many chareidim have vehemently objected to a woman fielding taharas hamishpacha questions, claiming a woman should be comfortable addressing those issues with a male, but yet this article implies the exact opposite.
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Oct 29, 2009 at 05:50 PM OMG Says:
“ On Frumkeit there is a famous debate what should be the proper approach to Yiddishkeit. Some think that everything the Torah says is Osur (forbidden) is forbidden but everything else is Muttar (permissible), which this approach might lead someone to be a Novol Be’reshus Hatorah which can end up with pulling a person down the drain. The other approach is that everything the Torah says is Muttar (permissible) is permissible, and everything else is forbidden. This might lead a person to become a Taliban. The right approach is somewhere buried in between; where exactly, is for us mortals to figure out. That’s what we are here for to do the Rotzoin Haboireh; everything else is commentary. Let’s not be too hard on a Rov who only wants to do what is right. ”
Both you failed to answer the pertinent question why should we listen to this rabbi while my rabbi knows that my wife works and never ever had a problem with any woman working. And because this one rabbi says that you most get permission from your rabbi that doesn’t mean that this is now Halacha L’Moshe MiSinai it is not.
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Oct 29, 2009 at 05:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ What is "appalling" is not that the woman was exposed to a question regarding virility pills. There's nothing sordid about a man asking a question about medication. What is appalling is that the woman had no clue as to what was being discussed and therefore needed to ask detailed questions about it. This is just silly! Who doesn't know what Viagra is nowadays? Unless you're living in a cave, this is common knowledge. This is a complete and utter joke. ”
My educated guess I that the only reason that you know what Viagra is is because the marketing tactics used to sell it- tv commercials, magazine ads, etc. It is just sad that we should think of such an immodest item as 'common knowledge.' in fact, the standard should really be like that woman, that we don't know of such things. 1 because Baruch Hashem we don't need it and 2 because it is an untznius subject. Who are we kidding to try and cover it up as a 'medical condition'? Let's not take things out of context and keep in mind that we are
Jews obligated to keep the Torah and walk in the way of Hashem before we are
fellow human beings to the rest of the world that is coarse and immodest beyond belief. We all need to think about ourselves and where we are holding in our yiras shamayim, because we can all
improve tremendously. Making fun of a highly religious woman for her 'ignorance' of such a matter is extremely immature and downright silly. Sensitivity is something that every1 deserves.
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Oct 29, 2009 at 06:50 PM Anonymous Says:
“ My educated guess I that the only reason that you know what Viagra is is because the marketing tactics used to sell it- tv commercials, magazine ads, etc. It is just sad that we should think of such an immodest item as 'common knowledge.' in fact, the standard should really be like that woman, that we don't know of such things. 1 because Baruch Hashem we don't need it and 2 because it is an untznius subject. Who are we kidding to try and cover it up as a 'medical condition'? Let's not take things out of context and keep in mind that we are
Jews obligated to keep the Torah and walk in the way of Hashem before we are
fellow human beings to the rest of the world that is coarse and immodest beyond belief. We all need to think about ourselves and where we are holding in our yiras shamayim, because we can all
improve tremendously. Making fun of a highly religious woman for her 'ignorance' of such a matter is extremely immature and downright silly. Sensitivity is something that every1 deserves. ”
I agree this woman should not be made fun of. However, if you don't believe it is a medical condition, you are sorely mistaken.
Although I generally hate pharmeceutical advertising, I for one am glad about the ads and that we "know of such things". How many couples have suffered with this problem? How many men would even know that its a medical condition and there is treatment without these ads? The ads reduce the stigma making it a little easier for men to speak with their drs. ED can be a sign of other serious medical problems (i.e. cardiovasular problems), so its important that men with this problem go speak with their dr. It reminds me of when nice people couldn't talk about breast cancer or colon cancer or genital cancers. It's wonderful that all these conditions have come out of the closet, resulting in many lives being saved.
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Oct 29, 2009 at 07:18 PM Askupeh Says:
“ Both you failed to answer the pertinent question why should we listen to this rabbi while my rabbi knows that my wife works and never ever had a problem with any woman working. And because this one rabbi says that you most get permission from your rabbi that doesn’t mean that this is now Halacha L’Moshe MiSinai it is not. ”
I agree with you that it is not Halacha L’Moshe MiSinai; I myself didn't think of asking a Sheileh. My point (one of my points) is that this Rabbi is trying to solve a problem. You B"H don't have this problem, I don't either; but many people DO have a problem. He is there (and sees what's going on) and we are here, and I would give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 12:35 AM matzahlocal101 Says:
“ I can tell you that starting from my great-grand parents down to my last adult cousin, everyone in my family received college education from universities and no-one turned into a devil or proclaimed himself to be the next moshiach yet. Religions that fear their followers gaining knowledge from outside world are weak religions. Take a look a Buddhism, Islam, Paganism who all have strict mind controls over their followers.
This story is another example of radicalism in today's Jewish orthodoxy. This type of control over individuals by their Rabbis reminds me of Utah and Texas Christian cults. These rabbis expect the men to learn in shuls all day, while there are 3 or 6 kids to feed, and now they control where a woman should and should not work when she is replacing the universal role of a husband to be the provider. I feel so bad for people that are stuck in such ridiculous lifestyles. ”
Can you explain what the mishnah (brought lihalachah by the Rambam) means when it says a perso that learns seferin chitzoinim has no chalek in oilom haba'ah? Did you even know there is such a mishnah? Please tell us how many of your college educated family know shisha sidrei mishnah ba'al peh? How many have even completed shishsa sidrei mishnah? How many have completed daled chelki shulchan oruch? In you circles a piece of paper on the wall is more important than Torah. To quote Reb Moishe z"l in a responsa to someone asking a heter to go to college (obviously you need a heter or Reb Moishe would have just written "no problem, go ahead") Reb Moishe z"l writes that someone who believes that the Ribono shel Oilom is incapable of providing parnassah without that piece of paper on the wall has serious problems with his Emunah. That said, that is the classic definition of modern orthodoxy, the observance of orthodox Jewish precepts without G-d.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 08:07 AM Anonymous Says:
aha so its the husbands that are supposed to be bringing in the income and supporting the wife but no, ppl think there smarter and they say we"ll just go sit and learn and for most of the time there not learning, they are doing it to there wifes. married woman shouldnt be supporting there husbands learning, the husband should be doing both. have an awesome shabbos. please dont mind if it hurt.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 08:14 AM MK Says:
Do me a freakin' favor!!
This is just a "Rav" or "Askan" looking for attention.
A)Why would the woman be answering questions about a product that she doesn't know anything about?
B)Once the man described the product "in detail", why would he then ask her q's about it? And why wouldn't she just say, "Um, till 2 minutes ago I never heard of this product, how can I possibly answer your q's? Let me transfer you to a supervisor so he/she can properly direct your call."
See how easy that is?
C)If it was a crank call, hang up.
D)If your job includes answering q's about Viagra and you're uncomfortable about that, ask to be given different responsibilities or take a different job.
I believe that this is a made-up scenario designed to get someone some attention, which we are all falling for, including myself.
Have a Great Shabbos, and don't let such stories convince you that all your fellow Jews are such imbediles.
If you do believe that, you're only putting yourself down.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 06:55 AM starwolf Says:
“ Can you explain what the mishnah (brought lihalachah by the Rambam) means when it says a perso that learns seferin chitzoinim has no chalek in oilom haba'ah? Did you even know there is such a mishnah? Please tell us how many of your college educated family know shisha sidrei mishnah ba'al peh? How many have even completed shishsa sidrei mishnah? How many have completed daled chelki shulchan oruch? In you circles a piece of paper on the wall is more important than Torah. To quote Reb Moishe z"l in a responsa to someone asking a heter to go to college (obviously you need a heter or Reb Moishe would have just written "no problem, go ahead") Reb Moishe z"l writes that someone who believes that the Ribono shel Oilom is incapable of providing parnassah without that piece of paper on the wall has serious problems with his Emunah. That said, that is the classic definition of modern orthodoxy, the observance of orthodox Jewish precepts without G-d. ”
And you don't thinnk that the Rambam had the equivalent of a University education? Where do you think that he learned medicine? How about his son? And the Arbarbanel? And his son? What do Chazal say about the "wisodm of the nations?"
How many Rabbanim with University educations are you trying to say receive no chelek in olamn haba?
It seems that it will surprise you to know that there are quite a few people who have learned shisha sidrei mishna--and are University educated as well. One type of knowledge does not preclude the other.
However, in some cases, it seems that people cherish ignorance. Ignorance of anything except their version of Judaism. You want to live that way, go right ahead. But do not think that it is anything else than glorification of ignorance.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 06:03 AM MK Says:
Do me a freakin' favor!!
This is just a "Rav" or "Askan" looking for attention.
A)Why would the woman be answering questions about a product that she doesn't know anything about?
B)Once the man described the product "in detail", why would he then ask her q's about it? And why wouldn't she just say, "Um, till 2 minutes ago I never heard of this product, how can I possibly answer your q's? Let me transfer you to a supervisor so he/she can properly direct your call."
See how easy that is?
C)If it was a crank call, hang up.
D)If your job includes answering q's about Viagra and you're uncomfortable about that, ask to be given different responsibilities or take a different job.
I believe that this is a made-up scenario designed to get someone some attention, which we are all falling for, including myself.
Have a Great Shabbos, and don't let such stories convince you that all your fellow Jews are such imbediles.
If you do believe that, you're only putting yourself down.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 02:11 AM YZster Says:
fyi: There were plenty of Rosh Yeshiva's that got college degrees in the last century.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 09:37 AM formally Says:
I think this is a great idea that cheradie woman take these calls.
Why, I light bulb might go off every now and then and say, so that is whats wrong with my husbands, thanks the rov always said it was my fault
.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 09:35 AM formally Says:
reading some of these comments I suggest that VIn has a release form for all woman who want to post and even read this comments from there husbands and rov's.
If the woman is single there is no need for her to see this things and should not be allowed to participate and or read this comments.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 12:51 AM marhak Says:
“ Can you explain what the mishnah (brought lihalachah by the Rambam) means when it says a perso that learns seferin chitzoinim has no chalek in oilom haba'ah? Did you even know there is such a mishnah? Please tell us how many of your college educated family know shisha sidrei mishnah ba'al peh? How many have even completed shishsa sidrei mishnah? How many have completed daled chelki shulchan oruch? In you circles a piece of paper on the wall is more important than Torah. To quote Reb Moishe z"l in a responsa to someone asking a heter to go to college (obviously you need a heter or Reb Moishe would have just written "no problem, go ahead") Reb Moishe z"l writes that someone who believes that the Ribono shel Oilom is incapable of providing parnassah without that piece of paper on the wall has serious problems with his Emunah. That said, that is the classic definition of modern orthodoxy, the observance of orthodox Jewish precepts without G-d. ”
the point is clear it is so easy for us to go on to the bad derech, sometimes you dont feel a change you but, there is a change every thing you see anywhere you remember
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Oct 30, 2009 at 10:24 AM FVNMS Says:
“ Nonetheless, these women at the call center aren't physicians or PA's they are more like customer service or something simillar therefore discussing things like Viagra etc between a male and a married frum female is according to Rav Idan gilui arayos. ”
I would fire this arrogant, incompetent and unprofessional woman. Then call a lawyer because you know what's coming next.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 10:21 AM FVNMS Says:
“ Nonetheless, these women at the call center aren't physicians or PA's they are more like customer service or something simillar therefore discussing things like Viagra etc between a male and a married frum female is according to Rav Idan gilui arayos. ”
It's incredible how people say anything without knowing what they are talking about.
Allow me to educate you: anybody dispensing medical care or advice is considered a rofeh. A government-issued license has no bearing on halacha. If these women are trained to field medical questions, even if they are merely elementary school graduates they are a rofeh (lehalacha). They don't need to be PA's or physicians.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 11:55 AM Anonymous Says:
There is no doubt in my mind that exposure to ther greater "velt" through working in a regualr job is spiritually cahllenging to say the least, and spiritually damaging. The fact of the matter is that the outdise world sees activities that we would find completely immoral as normative, and it is very hard not to be influenced by it. So you go to a bar after work with your co-workers, start drinking a little more than you should, all of a sudden you are drunk and your yetzer hora is on the prowl and itching to be freed. It can get ugly. That would not happen if you were in a Kollel all day or working in a Haimishe environment. That is why it is encouraged.
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Oct 30, 2009 at 12:41 PM Askupeh Says:
“ I think this is a great idea that cheradie woman take these calls.
Why, I light bulb might go off every now and then and say, so that is whats wrong with my husbands, thanks the rov always said it was my fault
.
”
Do you really think that, that’s what a Rov is for, to say to a woman that it’s her fault? Wonder which Rabbonim you came in contact.