“ the father and rebbei who advised him should be arrested for child abuse.

Funny when one of the rebbies needed a hospital didn't he go to Haddasha ”

“ can you all stop. He took his daughter to a normal hospital. I can understand the father for not wanting to go though child abuse accusations from a anti chardi hospital (and risk losing his other children) ”

“ can you all stop. He took his daughter to a normal hospital. I can understand the father for not wanting to go though child abuse accusations from a anti chardi hospital (and risk losing his other children) ”

“ What was he afraid of? maybe he was hiding something in order to do something so stupid. This act itself is neglect and he should be arrested ”

“ can you all stop. He took his daughter to a normal hospital. I can understand the father for not wanting to go though child abuse accusations from a anti chardi hospital (and risk losing his other children) ”

“ What was he afraid of? maybe he was hiding something in order to do something so stupid. This act itself is neglect and he should be arrested ”

“ That's what I find so sad: The Geivad Weiss himself has no scruples going to Hadassa Ein Kerem when he needs them.

But there are diehard followers who would let his own child suffer in order to avoid the hospital. This is not the first case, there were cases of head injuries during the summer... ”

“ can you all stop. He took his daughter to a normal hospital. I can understand the father for not wanting to go though child abuse accusations from a anti chardi hospital (and risk losing his other children) ”

“ can you all stop. He took his daughter to a normal hospital. I can understand the father for not wanting to go though child abuse accusations from a anti chardi hospital (and risk losing his other children) ”

“ Smart father genius I'm sure he's going straight to gan eden for his mesiras nefesh ”

“ Another smart quote!, do you know how many children were taken away by the ACS and Child Protective Services here in America, for no good reason just 'cause the hospital reported the case as required by law, yes there is a lot to be afraid of. ”

“ the father should be admited immediately to a insane asylum for the criminally insane.
and the rebbe [no mather who he is] should be arrested and put on trial,and sent away for a long time ”

“ i think maybe the rabbis should also prosicuted how do make such a din not to use a hospital we have to stop being so narow minded there are by us all kind of pepole ,steals robbers ,peterfil etc.rabbi get or act together and lead for haven sake and ours dont go to lavish wedding when you prish no lavish etc
”

“ Things must work *very* differently there. Here in Maryland where I am a certified EMT-B, it is *PROTOCOL* to take certain patients to certain types of facilities. If I deviate from the protocols (which are legal standing orders from the doctor under whose license I and all EMTs practice our care), I can have my certification revoked and face criminal charges. It doesn't matter how much the patient (or pt's parent) fights or argues, protocols are protocols. If it takes a call to the cops, then that's what it takes! ”

“ Another smart quote!, do you know how many children were taken away by the ACS and Child Protective Services here in America, for no good reason just 'cause the hospital reported the case as required by law, yes there is a lot to be afraid of. ”

“ If this is how you act, you'd better get some legal advice. If the patient (or her parents, if she's a minor) objects to going to a particular hospital, and you take her there against her will, you are guilty of kidnapping. "Protocol" will not protect you from a criminal charge.
”

“ If this is how you act, you'd better get some legal advice. If the patient (or her parents, if she's a minor) objects to going to a particular hospital, and you take her there against her will, you are guilty of kidnapping. "Protocol" will not protect you from a criminal charge.
”

“ They should indict the neighbors. For violating two לאוים לדאורייתא:
* Do not put a tumbling block before the blind (לפני עיור), and
* Do not stand idly by the blood of your fellow (לא תעמד על דם רעך) ”

“ Its simple, the hospital obvuesily has a history with making child abuse problems for haradie pepole, they were affraid for a child abuse case for how and why the child got burned, there desicon makes lot of sence. For them its not because Boycutt its to save there back... ”

“ “ What was he afraid of? maybe he was hiding something in order to do something so stupid. This act itself is neglect and he should be arrested”

Some doctors/hospitals are more prone to see any injury as abuse and take away a child. Probably he saw that as a greater danger. ”

“ fortunately there are only second degree burns on less than 20% of her body.
she will most likely not be an a burn ICU and
she will most likely heal regardless to which hospital she is admitted. and if done correctly should have minimal or no cosmetic defects.
i certainly respect a father/parents preferences in these matters.. there are sad reasons for these preferences and while i dont agree with him here he did make a medically valid decision.
he has a right to treat his child in the manner he feels is best (within rational guidelines.. and he certainly made a rational judgement)

as a practicing surgeon ( i havent treated burns in years) here in the usa, i would have taken my child to hadassah for obvious reasons and agree with the ambulance /emt triage assessment.... on the other hand it certainly is not wrong to take her to a different facility of high quality.
had the burns been more extensive(over 40% of body surface area) or of greater severity (third degree burns) then a specialized burn unit would in my judgement be the correct choice..
let this be a lesson to us all to stop the fighting and bickering ”

“ No, protocol is exactly what will save my butt. Violating it is what will lead to criminal charges. If they refuse transport but aren't of mind to do so, the cops become mommy and daddy to them and make the decision for them. Without the police, yes it is legally kidnapping. With the police, it's the cops' decision and I'm off the hook. That *is* the legal advice we have received. ”

“ If this is how you act, you'd better get some legal advice. If the patient (or her parents, if she's a minor) objects to going to a particular hospital, and you take her there against her will, you are guilty of kidnapping. "Protocol" will not protect you from a criminal charge.
”

“ Let me reword this comment, just so that nobody makes fun of this poster.

"...I believe that this Rabbi should be prosecuted, too. What nonsense - to declare a certain hospital forbidden! Attention must be focused elsewhere (e.g. dishonesty, pedophilia, etc) by our leaders. And practice what you preach (e.g. don't attend the lavish weddings you preach against)..." ”

“ robert

what rational decision did the father make? because of the case of the starving mom that is a rational decision that the hospital is out to get the heridiem. ”

“ And what will he get for causing his child irrepreible harm? ”

“ Another smart quote!, do you know how many children were taken away by the ACS and Child Protective Services here in America, for no good reason just 'cause the hospital reported the case as required by law, yes there is a lot to be afraid of. ”

“ If this is how you act, you'd better get some legal advice. If the patient (or her parents, if she's a minor) objects to going to a particular hospital, and you take her there against her will, you are guilty of kidnapping. "Protocol" will not protect you from a criminal charge.
”

“ Sad story and very illustrative of the taliban lifestyle many people born Jewish live. While their appearance reflects devout observance, in reality they are idol worshipers. The pulpit rabbi who posted above suggested the crowd was oiver on lifnei ever and lo saamoid. The father is oiver on lo yihyeh lecha eloikim acheirim. ”

“ You have no idea what you are talking about and c.v, you are risking lives by spouting your nareshkeit If an EMT in eretz yisroyiel follows his formal protocols and takes the patient to the type of hospital prescribed for the specific injury or condition they are suffering from , the EMT is immunized against any any charges of "kidnapping" or other such schdus. My bigger concern is that there might have been some negligence on the part of the parents leading to the accident and thats why they wanted a "friendlier" hospital that might be less prone to ask questions of chareidi parents. ”

“ You have no idea what you are talking about and c.v, you are risking lives by spouting your nareshkeit If an EMT in eretz yisroyiel follows his formal protocols and takes the patient to the type of hospital prescribed for the specific injury or condition they are suffering from , the EMT is immunized against any any charges of "kidnapping" or other such schdus. My bigger concern is that there might have been some negligence on the part of the parents leading to the accident and thats why they wanted a "friendlier" hospital that might be less prone to ask questions of chareidi parents. ”

“ Are you aware that if a doctor treats someone against his will he's guilty of assault? The person can be bleeding in front of you, and if she says "don't touch me" you have no right to touch her. So how can an EMT take someone to a place she explicitly refuses to go, and claim immunity just because a doctor gave him a protocol? Even if the doctor were right there authorizing it it would be kidnapping, how much more so when he's not there. And in the case of a minor the parents speak for her. ”

“ Are you aware that if a doctor treats someone against his will he's guilty of assault? The person can be bleeding in front of you, and if she says "don't touch me" you have no right to touch her. So how can an EMT take someone to a place she explicitly refuses to go, and claim immunity just because a doctor gave him a protocol? Even if the doctor were right there authorizing it it would be kidnapping, how much more so when he's not there. And in the case of a minor the parents speak for her. ”

“ Are you aware that if a doctor treats someone against his will he's guilty of assault? The person can be bleeding in front of you, and if she says "don't touch me" you have no right to touch her. So how can an EMT take someone to a place she explicitly refuses to go, and claim immunity just because a doctor gave him a protocol? Even if the doctor were right there authorizing it it would be kidnapping, how much more so when he's not there. And in the case of a minor the parents speak for her. ”

“ You have no idea what you are talking about and c.v, you are risking lives by spouting your nareshkeit If an EMT in eretz yisroyiel follows his formal protocols and takes the patient to the type of hospital prescribed for the specific injury or condition they are suffering from , the EMT is immunized against any any charges of "kidnapping" or other such schdus. My bigger concern is that there might have been some negligence on the part of the parents leading to the accident and thats why they wanted a "friendlier" hospital that might be less prone to ask questions of chareidi parents. ”

“ It is rather shocking to read that EMTs are empowered to overrule a parent's decision as to where to take there children to be treated. We recently had a rather serious accident in our town involving a child. Two different EMTs showed up -- the regular town paramedics and Hatzolah. The former will only take your child to the local hospital, which is mediocre at best. Hatzolah will take your child where you want.

Fortunately, someone nearby had the presence of mind to tell the mother (who was understandably very distraught) to take Hatzolah and have the child taken to Hackensack University Medical Center, which has a really excellent Pediatric Emergency Room. That is what happened

The idea that the police could order the child taken to the local hospital over the mother's wishes is chilling.

Yes, I know the father's views here about Hadassah were rather crackpot. But Shaarei Tzedek is nothing to sneeze at either. The father didn't say to leave the child home. You would have a very tough time convincing me that it is "child abuse" to prefer to take your child to one hospital over another. ”

“ I think you all are missing the bigger problem. Why doesn't Shaarei Tzedek hospital have a better burn unit than it has? What if someone lives a lot closer to ST should they be driven to Hadasah? How much time is wasted by doing that? And besides didn't the doctor in post# 33 state that ST DOES in fact have a burn unit??
I think you all are just Cheraidi bashing. Not only are you belittling tremendously our Rabeyims status and respect, but I bet you would have done the EXACT same thing if it was your child and you knew the consequences that possibly could happen at Hadasah. So don't come here and write your holier then thou, pompous rhetoric about how the father should be jailed or institutionalized or have boiling water poured on him, or the child(ren) taken away from him etc. You people just love talking like that. And you know you are PHONIES! Al todin es chavaircho ahd shetagiah limkomo, and kol haposel b'mumo posel! It's easy for you to talk big but when and emergency arrives Ch"v you'l do what YOU think is right not what WE think is right. And again go back to post # 33 ST is good enough for this type of injury. But again if you can stick it to charaidim............ ”

“ Arrested? For what? Even if he was totally making it up, which you don't know, what possible charge could lie against him?

Don't you even want to know who this rabbi is? A chossid listens to his rebbe, no matter what. If the rebbe says not to have an operation, it doesn't matter how many doctors insist on performing it, it will not happen. How many times did the Lubavitcher Rebbe tell people to defy the doctors' opinions? Would you have arrested him too (again, on what charge)? Would you have committed all the people who obeyed him, and all the people who are alive today only BECAUSE they obeyed him and not the doctors? Think about what you're saying.

Of course the LR was different from most people, but the story doesn't say who this rabbi is, so we have no way of knowing whether he too is different from most people. ”

“ It is rather shocking to read that EMTs are empowered to overrule a parent's decision as to where to take there children to be treated. We recently had a rather serious accident in our town involving a child. Two different EMTs showed up -- the regular town paramedics and Hatzolah. The former will only take your child to the local hospital, which is mediocre at best. Hatzolah will take your child where you want.

Fortunately, someone nearby had the presence of mind to tell the mother (who was understandably very distraught) to take Hatzolah and have the child taken to Hackensack University Medical Center, which has a really excellent Pediatric Emergency Room. That is what happened

The idea that the police could order the child taken to the local hospital over the mother's wishes is chilling.

Yes, I know the father's views here about Hadassah were rather crackpot. But Shaarei Tzedek is nothing to sneeze at either. The father didn't say to leave the child home. You would have a very tough time convincing me that it is "child abuse" to prefer to take your child to one hospital over another. ”

“ the father and rebbei who advised him should be arrested for child abuse.

Funny when one of the rebbies needed a hospital didn't he go to Haddasha ”

“ You contradict your own words when first you say: " will only take your child to the local hospital, which is mediocre at best." Talking about the incident in your town.

Then talking about what happened in Israel you say: " You would have a very tough time convincing me that it is "child abuse" to prefer to take your child to one hospital over another.”

You are very conveniently ignoring that the hospital they took the child to does NOT have a BURN UNIT and the one the EMT's wanted to take the child to DID have one.

I'm glad your not my lawyer. ”

“ anyone dispensing medical advice and is not a licensed doctor is breaking the law and is endangering life,
as far as the stories with the lubavitcher rebbi is concerned,i hope you are smart enough and realize that 99% of these idiotic rebbishe maiselech is pure fantasy.
and if one of those stories is true,then the rebbe broke the law of the land,and should be punished for it [i used the present tense,because of course he is still alive] ”

“ There is no contradiction whatsoever. My position is that the choice of an individual (or in the case of a child, his or her parent) should be respected, unless the person is so sick as to be mentally incompetent, or unless that choice is so utterly irrational as to be abusive.

If the father had said, leave the child home, we'll say a couple of Tehillim and she'll be alright, that is child abuse. That's not what happened: he said take her to Shaarei Tsedek, which is a perfectly fine, professional hospital. It might not have been my first choice, but it was his, and I don't want a bunch of busybodies screaming "child abuse" to take that choice from him. (Are we now going to hafve EMTs dictating which doctor I see?)

So Shaarei Tsedek has no burn unit. So what. There are fine doctors there who have treated burns and other serious matters. I know people who have suffered serious burns and have been treated in hospitals without burn units. I am sure Shaarei Chesed can do a fine job. (See Post # 58 above)

In short, unless it is very exceptional, the patient (or the parent's) choice controls.

And as for my not being your lawyer, frankly I doubt you can afford it. ”

“ it varies in the usa from state to state..
most states indemnify their agents(their emt's) against criminal and civil action if they follow protocol.

so you have a time sensitive emergency and you wait for the cops to arrive in a patient with decreased legal capacity.. now their is a bad outcome because of the delay (say an acute stroke).. so no criminal charges are filed but how about civil charges (by the survivng spouse) for delay in treatment leading to death?

meanwhile you are off the hook because the cops assumed the liabilty you described(assuming it exists in your jurisdiction) for kidnapping..
so according to your legal department, are the police possibly at risk for criminal kidnapping charges?
most emts are compassionate professionals who serve people at a vulnerable time .. they usually rise to the occassion. ”

“ No, protocol is exactly what will save my butt. Violating it is what will lead to criminal charges. If they refuse transport but aren't of mind to do so, the cops become mommy and daddy to them and make the decision for them. Without the police, yes it is legally kidnapping. With the police, it's the cops' decision and I'm off the hook. That *is* the legal advice we have received. ”

“ Things must work *very* differently there. Here in Maryland where I am a certified EMT-B, it is *PROTOCOL* to take certain patients to certain types of facilities. If I deviate from the protocols (which are legal standing orders from the doctor under whose license I and all EMTs practice our care), I can have my certification revoked and face criminal charges. It doesn't matter how much the patient (or pt's parent) fights or argues, protocols are protocols. If it takes a call to the cops, then that's what it takes! ”

“ You contradict your own words when first you say: " will only take your child to the local hospital, which is mediocre at best." Talking about the incident in your town.

Then talking about what happened in Israel you say: " You would have a very tough time convincing me that it is "child abuse" to prefer to take your child to one hospital over another.”

You are very conveniently ignoring that the hospital they took the child to does NOT have a BURN UNIT and the one the EMT's wanted to take the child to DID have one.

I'm glad your not my lawyer. ”

“ fortunately there are only second degree burns on less than 20% of her body.
she will most likely not be an a burn ICU and
she will most likely heal regardless to which hospital she is admitted. and if done correctly should have minimal or no cosmetic defects.
i certainly respect a father/parents preferences in these matters.. there are sad reasons for these preferences and while i dont agree with him here he did make a medically valid decision.
he has a right to treat his child in the manner he feels is best (within rational guidelines.. and he certainly made a rational judgement)

as a practicing surgeon ( i havent treated burns in years) here in the usa, i would have taken my child to hadassah for obvious reasons and agree with the ambulance /emt triage assessment.... on the other hand it certainly is not wrong to take her to a different facility of high quality.
had the burns been more extensive(over 40% of body surface area) or of greater severity (third degree burns) then a specialized burn unit would in my judgement be the correct choice..
let this be a lesson to us all to stop the fighting and bickering ”

“ Protocol comes after many other legal strictures, including consent. Your protocol cannot violate patient consent rules, either inherently or situationally. Further, the indemnity (usually in Good Samaritan laws or their parallels for emergency providers) do not generally cover you for either gross incompetence or violating consent rules.

You are correct about decreased legal capacity, but it would be irrelevant. The parents of this burned child did not have diminished capacity; you just think they are foolish. Even if it were relevant, there are some issues with decreased capacity. I fthe patient (or guardian) is unconscious, you can use implied consent. Decreased capacity also relies on implied consent, but it less clear. For example, the drunk who refuses treatment -- you might be OK by ignoring his protests, because he can't make decisions and you should therefore have implied consent. Most EMS will not rely on that, and will wait for the drunk to either come around, or completely pass out (making implied consent clear-cut). ”

“ I'm not a Dr. like you are, but my nephew spilled 6oz of scalding water on himself.....he spent a little over a month at Cornell Burn unit, needed a skin graft & needed to wear a compression suit for almost a year, yet the burn was not even on 10% of his body. So saying that it "only on 20%" doesn't indicate the severity of it. Her age alone should have been the deciding factor. ”

“ yes we all know about hadhassha

they care about children, ( as opposed to you who rather have a child die, ) and are not scared of the cheridiem and will report an abusive motherl to the authorities

they should be commended for saving a young child from its abusive mother .
I hope all hospitals are as diligent as hadhsha ”