Jerusalem – It is a weekday morning and at Midreshet Lindenbaum, an Orthodox women’s seminary in Talpiot, a handful of students in the Manhigot (women leaders) program – designed to give women tools in psika (religious ruling) – are sitting and learning Baba Metzia (a talmudic tractate) in the seminary’s beit midrash.
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Down the road at Beit Morasha, a center for Jewish studies and leadership development, a group of women in the Halacha program are sitting in pairs learning Even Ha’ezer, part of the corpus of Jewish law. Not far away at Nishmat, a leading center for Jewish women’s learning, students in the Keren Ariel program are learning the key halachic sources relating to family purity.
The three programs – each of which provides a select group of exceptional women scholars with the opportunity to reach the highest level of Jewish scholarship, often with the same curriculum as rabbinical schools – were created to address different needs within the modern Orthodox world and, arguably, are unprecedented in their attention to training women for involvement in halachic discourse and the application of Jewish law.
“What is different about the Keren Ariel program is that women are involved in the application of Halacha and are not just involved in the study of Halacha,” says Rabbanit Chana Henkin, the founder and dean of Nishmat. “There is nothing like this anywhere else in the world.”
Sounds like a good idea for some parts of the Othodox world, b”h no the one in which I live. But bava metzia?? Can’t they keep up with daf yomi?
Now we’re coming full circle. First the men stopped working and started learning full time while the women supported them, now the women are also taking over the learning. Soon the men will spend all day pushing strollers, cooking, and cleaning.
this looks like a reform study hall. very sad.
Just wondering how they are learning the gmora in sothah that women shoudnt learn,
A women once wakled into Reb Shach Zet’l and asked him a question in learning, so he responded by asking her; “do you know how to make a good kugle” meaning that that is ™he womens job, to cook, clean, take care of the kids, and look nice for her husband. The mans job is to learn and work.
One of the major perakim in Bava Metzia discusses hashavas avedah, returning lost objects. How fitting would it be if these holy yiddish neshamos would likewise return themselves back to their proper place; i.e. in the home. The home that only they, the Jewish woman, can create and nurture.
I guess these programs will hasten the Geula- Sic
Stupid ! Women are made to be in the kitchen not in shule
I’m not an extremist but why are women learning bava metzia? I think they should be learning hilchos nidda to help other women and make things more comfortable for other women who have questions. Theres also benefit in learning hilchos shabbos and other Halachos pertaining to a kosher home but i think its gotten too far when they start learning dinnay momenos. I’ll leave it to others to elaborate.
its ok- and some of the things that were ritten below were antithetical to yidishkeit. Treat peope wit proper derech eretz
everyone here seems to disagree with woman learning gemorah……..what exactly is the issur for a woman to learn gemorah if she chooses too?? i understand people think its unnecessary but its still not as weird as riding into a wedding in the 21st century on horses
I can’t wait to hear a chubarah on R’ Elchanan in the sugya of tukfah cohen.
wowie! women belong in the kitchen not in shul, bearing children but not learning. and a great rabbi once asked a lady interested in Torah study if she could make a decent kugel? its great that we allow women to be breadwinners (while their husbands study) its not nice that we call them baby machines or kitchen slaves. especially those who wish to perform the miztvah of Torah study.
i guess this is the last time we hear anyone on VIN criticize the treatment of muslim women in saudi arabia or wherever? because hey dont we agree with them?
martin luther (founder of lutheranism) once said: women were created to bore children till they die from it. how can that be translated into yiddsh?
The way to go! Looking forward to the siyum of shas. I’m also learning bava metzia can I ak them a kasha.what’s the rebizins name ?
It sure is less expensive than shopping. This is a good thing.
regardless if they are capable or not, the gemara in sotah says that ladies shouldnt learn gemora. so there shouldnt be anyone commenting that “maybe the men will be shown that ladies can also “halt kup” in gemora!
Its about time woman are being leaders and learning for them selves. If a woman can make more money then her husband why cant she learn if she wants too
i wonder
what does it mean when they say “binah yeseirah nintah b’isha”
what does she have extra
and what is the purpose of this
To #19 comment “The age old myth that women don’t have the mental capacity to analyze gemora like men do will be shattered very fast”
Dear #19 the gemara says this about women, you’re either a am haaretz or a apikoras, Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam paskin, that the fact that women don’t have or use the same analytical reasonings and tools as men as the reason why the gmara says ” a man who teaches his daughters Torah is like teaching her tiflus” go figure.
I’m not as holy as many of the commentators here, but I’m pretty sure that speaking/writing Loshon Hora about young Jewish women trying to elevate their neshomos & Torah knowledge is NOT the thing that’s going to bring the Geulah.
Kol hamelamed es bito Torah Keilu limdo Tiflus. Noshim Daaton kalos.
That said it is a musar to us bloggers, if we don’t get back to the Beis Hamedrash the ladies may have taken our place.
Women MUST learn Baba Metziah. Who is going to help their son chazer Aylu Metzios or Ha Mafkid? It ain’t sure gonna be the dad shtyging in kollel – bitul torah for him. It will be the mother – so she better know parts of Boba Metziah!! After making the kugel, I need to teach two of my sons those gemorahs and I sure wish I was taught them in Bais Yaakov.
Let me start off by saying that I would not want my wife or daughters learning like this. However, my bracha to myself is that should be the worst things they ever do!! Instead of focusing on the “issur of women learning” and whether not women should be learning, let’s focus on the picture of these tzniusly-dressed girls learning Torah. Even if if they “shouldn’t be learning,” how happy should we be that they are not engaging in znus on their free time! There are so many girls from Bais Yaacov, etc. that do one thing when they are in school and when the day is over they live a different life. How great is it that even when these girls have no obligation to learn, they go and try to immerse in Hashem’s Torah while they could be doing nothing worthwhile!! Whether or not anyone believes in women learning, we should see the good in their actions and focus on the real “time-wasting” problems that cause much greater harm in our community.
Can someone explain why Modern Orthodox or Religious Zionist women who learn Torah are such a threat to Charedi men? Why does it strike such a nerve?
If given the opportunity to learn and study without these naresh debates over whether or not its appropriate for women to learn talmud, within a generation, the leading women rabbonim will be running circles around the men in terms of lamdus and intellect. I suspect the image of a rabbanit explaining the real meaning and message of a complex sugya to a group of alte rabbonim really scares them but who cares. If not given the opportunity, women will take the opportunity so the smart thing to do would be to develop arrangements for women learning that don’t embarass the men.
I wonder how many of you are married ? Or would say such a statement in front of your wife?? Also have you ever heard of Bruriah? I think we even pasken like her in a few places. Open your eyes
This is a very religious group of women and it is a good idea, inasmuch as these women can deal with women who have problems where . Jewish law is concerned. It makes sense that in certain areas that deal with women’s problems that it should be women handling these types of cases and I think that it is wonderful. There
im pretty sure that the reform movement started the same way. just a little change here, and a little change there. funny thing is, if the reason behind this is so that ladies can paskun for ladies, whats the need? i dont hear rabbonim complaining that their workload is to much since they have ladies coming to ask questions. if so then whats the need for these programs? nobody said a lady shouldnt learn but this is pushing it.
This is great news. Thanks to ArtScroll, anyone can open up a daf gemora and learn.
I knew it wouldn’t take long until they invoke Beruria. The fact that you know ONE Tanna’s wife’s name out of thousands should tell you something….. but no, let’s make the exception the rule.
Bruria
Devorah
Rashi’s Daughter
Were these all MO?
Amazing – the topic with the most heated responses in days is girls learning. What a problem!! Step up and move into the 19th century. Become as liberal as Saudi Arabia ! These responses are depressing – you guys are really insecure.
שו”ע יו”ד סרמ”ו ס”ו “צוו חז”ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה, מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד, ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן”
to all you bashers. whats better, women SHOPPING!!!! When women learn Torah, they get a sense of meaning in life and make a difference. Not just popping out kids and talking lashon hara. These women learning are going to bring moshiach. If williamsburg women learnt torah, there wouldn’t be so much hidden things that are going on that are discusting to the meaning of “chassidic”. Kol hakovod girls, learn, because the ones against you are not learned and are jealous.
It is essential for women to have women to talk to when asking specific religious questions. Rabbis are no available & not interested in speaking to women & particularly to answer their questions. Men forget the kugels –make some BBQ wings with sauce.
here you go quoting??? the gemara in Sota when in fact it says nothing about a woman learning, its says “Kol hamelamed es bito Torah” – nothing about if she wants to learn by herself.
I believe it was Rav Sholom Schwadron who said his mother knew Shas. But I may be mistaken.
There have always been individual women who were learned (Rashi’s daughters, for example) – there was one Rebbetzin who gave shiur from behind a mechitza. Sorry, I don’t have all the sources handy.
What has changed is this. Sara Schenirer started the Bais Yaakov movement with the approval of the gedolim – the Chofetz Chaim and many choshuva rebbes as well. The girls were going to secular school and what the Mama taught them was not keeping them interested in Yiddishkeit.
Now that many girls are secularly educated beyond the bachelor’s level, many have a need for even more depth in their Jewish studies. While this could be in hashkafa etc some find it in Gemara. Their poskim might not be yours, but they do have Rabbonim on whom they rely.
In any case, as long as nobody asks you to enroll your daughter in this program, what purpose does your criticism serve?
Anyone who says that these holy veyber shouldn’t be learning should be forced to use some of the medicinal cures in the Gemorah next time they get sick instead of going to a hospital (probably one with capable female doctors and nurses). Kein Yirbu!
What it actually says in Sotah is that the mei sotah would not be effective against a woman who is learned in Torah—her merit would overcome the punishment. Therefore, in order to be able to be sure that mei sotah would work against the adulterous woman, some rabbonim said that women should not learn Torah. Nowadays, there is no mei sotah, so the prohibition is not applicable.
What we truly learn is that the woman who studies Torah has great zechus. Why are some people against this? You can make a kugel AND learn Torah. Women are great muti-taskers.
for a lady who becoming a bubba to look for metzias
After 120 years of a mans life, hashem will ask if he spent his time in this world learning torah. If not hashem will ask him why not. But these women will be asked why have you spent your time on something which is not for you its a boosha will the women start to ware pants or daven for the amud or become esrog soichrim? I think its shreclech are these women neturai karta by any chance? soon they will put on a reekel and a shtrimel i just hope im wrong also i think instead of learning baba metzia they should learn baba maysa
What happens when one of these women who CAN learn demands to enroll at BMG which cannot discriminate based on gender? They’d be in HUGE trouble and likely would have to give up their federal funding
is the reason for this maybe that men of today are not like men of yesterday? An entire generation raised to be parasites, weak, helpless sheep-like followers? A generation of men raised not to think for themselves, but to be led around by their noses by “leaders” who amass fortunes of real estate and pass on yeshiva power to the the best connected and the ones who can pay? A generation of men who shrink in insignificance and impotence, who don’t take responsibility for the welfare of their families, who let their wives work and “:run the show” while they “shteig” away and refuse all responsibility. of course the women are now learning gemara because the weak men of this generation have turned over their leadership roles to the women.
The Chauvinistic views of some posters here are appalling.
I agree women do not have to learn Baba Metzia, but to start rambling how this is the effect from the garbage women’s equal rights movement (quoting #13 ) or women only belong in the kitchen, to bear children, to make kugel, is ridiculous. Of course it’s beautiful to run your own beis mikdash me’at and for those women who are fine with that, good for them. But those who need something else, who find fulfillment outside of the home, good for them too.
Women are out there making great strides. I guess some of you are feeling threatened. It seems women can do it all, run the household, bear children, achieve high business positions and bring home nice paychecks. Well that is one of the reasons you say Sheloi Asani Ishah, you wouldn’t be able to do half of what many women do today.
One more comments:
IF ONLY it could be that women learning Gemara was the biggest problem faced by the Orthodox community!
Seriously, if anyone is spending serious time combating this “plague”, then they either live in a cave or have a very poor grasp of priorities.
its perfectly fine for women to study gemarah. there are so many women going off the derech in monroe, monsey, wiliamsburg and especially crown heights. Halevai, they should learn gemarah instead of going to bars and clubs, wearing untniusdik clothing etc.
How are these women going to get shiddach? Frum men would be intimidated by them.
From Rav Moshe Feinstein:
To Rav Elya Svei, Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia,
Regarding the issue that there are some girls schools that are called Bais Yaakovs and the like, where the administration and the teachers of the school want to teach the girls Mishnayos: Behold, in the Rambam Talmud Torah 1:13 he rules like R. Eliezer in Sotah 20a, that you may not teach girls Torah. Yet he distinguishes between Torah Shebal Peh, which, if you teach to girls is as if you taught them Tiflus, whereas Torah Shebiksav is not as if you taught them Tiflus, but L’Chatchilah you shouldn’t teach it to them anyway. In any case, Mishnayos, which is Torah Shebal Peh, Chazal commanded us not to teach to girls, and if you do, it is as if you taught them Tiflus. Therefore, you should prevent them from doing this [teaching Mishnayos], with the exception of Pirkei Avos, which, because it discusses Mussar and good Midos, you may teach it to them with explanations, in order to awaken them to Ahavas HaTorah and good Midos, but not any other Mesechta. And because this issue is simple, I will end here with a blessing that you may spread Torah and Yiras Shamayim to the world.
Your friend,
Moshe Feinstein
Real men are not threatened by women who are learned and they are not threatened by having to roll up their sleeves and help with childcare and housework. What is it about charedi life that makes men so afraid of women. They are afraid of women on buses, women in the street and now women sitting and studying.
I’m not going into this debate as far as ossur or mutter, but what I don’t understand is this: If they have so much time on their hands, why don’t they work or work more so their husbands or future husbands will have more time to learn? The gemorrah says a woman gets olam habah for helping her husband learn. This smells of Women’s lib, which is rampid in our generation. If they were learning things for practical halacha is one thing, but this doesn’t seem to be the case!
Sarah Schenirer never taught her students Mishnah and Gemara.