“ Rav Shach zt”l said studying from an elucidated Talmud “has no trace of kedushoh and emunoh,” arguing it would cause the Gemara to be forgotten, chaliloh, What about artscroll? Oh I forgot Steinzalts had connections to Chabad artscroll does not. ”

“ I don't see what the big deal is. It is not like aramaic is a loshon kodesh. The gemara was only written in aramaic because that was the common language of the time. ”

“ This entire argument is moot. Since the Mesivta shas has come out it has blown everything else out of the water. Any serious learner will choose the Mesivta over its competitors. For those masechahs that are not yet available, the Artscroll is a good second choice.

The Artscroll is also ideal for the layman who does not want to delve so deeply.

The Shteinzaltz is a beautiful piece of work for light informative reading. But I don't think you can consider 'reading' a Shteinzaltz as "learning". ”

“ The main opposition was expressed in th early '90 in a series of exchanges in the Jewish Obsersere; it had more to do with the haskafic views of the author expressed in "The Essential Talmud", as many considered the material published to border on heresy. And to #1, Rav Shach was very opposed to the usage of Artscroll as well, as noted in Michtovim U'Mamorim in several places. ”

“ Rav Shach zt”l said studying from an elucidated Talmud “has no trace of kedushoh and emunoh,” arguing it would cause the Gemara to be forgotten, chaliloh, What about artscroll? Oh I forgot Steinzalts had connections to Chabad artscroll does not. ”

“ Does anyone really believe that without Steinsalz there would be any Artscroll or Mesivta today? He was the first one to do it on a global scale and he deserves the credit. Plus unlike Artscroll or Mesivta, this was almost a one-man project. Kol hakavod. ”

“ Instead of praising the Rav for undertaking such a task, there are people who just have to poke and belittle his efforts. What a chillul Hashem that yidden find it appropriate to act AND SPEAK this way. ”

“ i remember my rebbe in torah vodaas telling me it was goyish to bring my schotenstein english gemorah into class and humiliated me in front of everyone ”

“ Eilu V'eilu Divrei elokim Chaim.

There was a time when the RAMBAM's seforim were BURNED by the gedolim! ”

“ Rav Shach zt”l said studying from an elucidated Talmud “has no trace of kedushoh and emunoh,” arguing it would cause the Gemara to be forgotten, chaliloh, What about artscroll? Oh I forgot Steinzalts had connections to Chabad artscroll does not. ”

“ The main opposition was expressed in th early '90 in a series of exchanges in the Jewish Obsersere; it had more to do with the haskafic views of the author expressed in "The Essential Talmud", as many considered the material published to border on heresy. And to #1, Rav Shach was very opposed to the usage of Artscroll as well, as noted in Michtovim U'Mamorim in several places. ”

“ i remember my rebbe in torah vodaas telling me it was goyish to bring my schotenstein english gemorah into class and humiliated me in front of everyone ”

“ Can anyone tell me when art scroll hebrew will be completed? ”

“ I don't see what the big deal is. It is not like aramaic is a loshon kodesh. The gemara was only written in aramaic because that was the common language of the time. ”

“ Rav Shach zt”l said studying from an elucidated Talmud “has no trace of kedushoh and emunoh,” arguing it would cause the Gemara to be forgotten, chaliloh, What about artscroll? Oh I forgot Steinzalts had connections to Chabad artscroll does not. ”

“ It's unfortunate when readers jump to conclusions about the cheshbonos that gedolei Yisroel make before they speak out on an issue. I really have no idea, but just guessing, I'm sure the rabbonim who opposed Steinsaltz recognized that it has something to offer for certain Jews, but after weighing the matter, held the price was too high to pay, since obviously it could be detrimental to other Jews who have a very promising future in Torah scholarship. ”

“ A few points: 1.One should read the haskomoh of R'Elyashiv on Artscroll, he writes that the only reason to make it is "eis la'asos laHashem heifeiru torosecho" that people who are looking for elucidated gemoro should not "wander in foreign fields" referring to Steinsaltz. 2. I personally believe that for many people it does open the gates of learning that would otherwise be closed for them, but many people I observe that could totally learn regular gemoro with a bit of yegiah, but out of laziness use Artscroll, and one can not seriously shteig from having it all laid out for you without independent thought and analysis, it should therefore be no more than a gateway to eventually learning without it. 3. On Shteinsaltz, he is quoted as saying “My grandfather used to say being an apikorus, a heretic, was better than being an am ha’aretz, an ignoramus”, and his father is quoted as saying “I do not care if my son is an apikores (heretic), but no son of mine will be an am-haaretz (ignoramus)". afrei lepumei. I think that says it all. ”

“ R. Elya Svei zt"l was against the Artscroll Gemara project, since he was concerned that the translation would become a crutch, stunting the growth of future gedolei yisrael (Reb Shmuel Kamenetsky, in contrast, gave his haskamah to the project). As it turns out, R. Elya had nothing to worry about: today's American yeshiva bochur, with his substandard eighth grade secular education, cannot read nor understand the English. ”

“ This entire argument is moot. Since the Mesivta shas has come out it has blown everything else out of the water. Any serious learner will choose the Mesivta over its competitors. For those masechahs that are not yet available, the Artscroll is a good second choice.

The Artscroll is also ideal for the layman who does not want to delve so deeply.

The Shteinzaltz is a beautiful piece of work for light informative reading. But I don't think you can consider 'reading' a Shteinzaltz as "learning". ”

“ nobodys a daih here the gedolim have put him in cherem case dismissed ”

“ no you are worng do some research ”

“ And, he was also the first to establish a yeshiva in Moscow.
All other yeshivos there were thanks to him.. ”

“ R' Schach also made the point that when he was a child, his rebbi did not write rashi script on the board; instead, he used his fingers. The idea was amaylos, which does not exist with artscroll. R' Mordechai Gifter's intervention caused R' Schach not to publicly assur it.

Any gadlus of most of the people who finished shas at the daf yomi was that attended everyday. Being spoon fed information through the artscroll in of itself is not particularly impressive. I understand some people gain a lot from it, but it is not amailos.

If you use artscroll to propel yourself to the real thing, kol hakavod. Most people are unfortunately stuck in the artscroll. ”

“ Allow me to try to follow your logic.

You have helpfully pointed out that Rav Shteinsalz is a Ba'al Teshuva who was sent to learn gemara because his non-religious father did not want him to be an Am Ha'aretz.
You are telling us that Rav Shteinsaltz, the ba'al teshuva who went from nothing to writing a peirush on all of Shas, is therefore worthy of being cursed with "Afra l'Pumei."

You sound like a really lovely person.
”

“ Excuse me? Lubavitch had yeshivos there throughout the communist era. ”

“ The Truth stands the test of time... That was the Truth then and it is the Truth today! ”

“ A few points: 1.One should read the haskomoh of R'Elyashiv on Artscroll, he writes that the only reason to make it is "eis la'asos laHashem heifeiru torosecho" that people who are looking for elucidated gemoro should not "wander in foreign fields" referring to Steinsaltz. 2. I personally believe that for many people it does open the gates of learning that would otherwise be closed for them, but many people I observe that could totally learn regular gemoro with a bit of yegiah, but out of laziness use Artscroll, and one can not seriously shteig from having it all laid out for you without independent thought and analysis, it should therefore be no more than a gateway to eventually learning without it. 3. On Shteinsaltz, he is quoted as saying “My grandfather used to say being an apikorus, a heretic, was better than being an am ha’aretz, an ignoramus”, and his father is quoted as saying “I do not care if my son is an apikores (heretic), but no son of mine will be an am-haaretz (ignoramus)". afrei lepumei. I think that says it all. ”

“ "You are telling us that Rav Shteinsaltz, the ba'al teshuva who went from nothing to writing a peirush on all of Shas, is therefore worthy of being cursed with "Afra l'Pumei.""do you enjoy making up words and putting them in other peoples mouth?

”

“ At the end it is the banned and the ridiculed that succeed. The Rambam, Ramchal, The Baal Shem Tov, R Nachman, and more recently Chabad, and Steinzaltz plus many more, have and will always continue to ultimatly succeed. ”

“ Rippin Pinchas... If you want Amaylus , then learn Talmud ,Chumash , etc. without Rashi , Targum Onkeles , Sifsei Chachomim, Bal Haturim. Do NOT delve into other meforshim but figure out everything in your head. Now THAT would be Amaylus....
Do you really believe that even when one learns with tapes or a tranlated Gemorrah it is automatically so easily understood???? Do you know how much amaylus is sometimes requires just to understand it with translation? Can poeple stop worrying about amaylus and just learn something?? Thanks. ”

“ I tell my son only half jokingly that Artscroll and Steinsaltz is a crutch, and he needs to learn how to learn without it. But I took him to Rav Steinsaltz shiur recently in EY and we were zoche to speak with him a little afterwards... How often do you get to meet a talmid chacham like him who wrote a peirush on all of shas ? I think it is wrong for the israeli rabbonim and their followers in america to put in cherem and attack everything that everyone else in the frum world does if they dont toe their line... Even if the gedolim dont mean it to happen, their ignorant followers reject everyone who doesn't fit their mold. I remember how I felt after I read Rav Schach's anti lubavitch letter for the first time when I was in Bais Medrash, it felt wrong to me..attacking them for learning Rambam?.... I feel like each cherem, each kol koreh against other yidden destroys our souls and our children see this fighting and rejection and it can push them off the derech Rachmana Litzlan.
”

“ Kol hakavod to Rav Steinzaltz. 45 years is a long time for a project. It takes much mazel and perseverance.

I grew up using some of his earlier Masechtos that were given to me as a Bar Mitzvah gift by my uncle. I have used them primarily for reference, ever since.

Rav Steinzaltz is obviously on out-of-the box, free thinker without any party affiliations. His written works and his lectures are manifestations of that. That obviously makes many in the mainstream Chareidi leadership uncomfortable. His associations with Chabad has made both the Chareidi and Chabad establishments uncomfortable at the same time.

I would guess that one of the catalysts for the Artscroll Shas project was an effort to duplicate Rav Steinzaltz in a more “correct way”. “Kinas sofrim tarbeh chachma”, because whatever one has to criticize of the hagiographies, the Artscroll Talmud is an excellent work.

Rav Schach was against the Artscroll Shas which is the reason that they overloaded with everyone else’s Haskamos to divert attention from his refusal to endorse it. I guess Artscroll had to come to the realization that even in the Chareidi camp. “Eilu v’Eilu” needs to be employed, albeit conveniently. ”

“ It's unfortunate when readers jump to conclusions about the cheshbonos that gedolei Yisroel make before they speak out on an issue. I really have no idea, but just guessing, I'm sure the rabbonim who opposed Steinsaltz recognized that it has something to offer for certain Jews, but after weighing the matter, held the price was too high to pay, since obviously it could be detrimental to other Jews who have a very promising future in Torah scholarship. ”

“ Your comment about his parents' statements are patently false. He is a baal teshuva and his parents weren't frum so your ra'aya is garbage. Rav Moshe had a set of Steinzaltz in his study. ”

“ Research into what? You have another reason why the gemara was written in Aramaic? ”

“ Rav Shach zt”l said studying from an elucidated Talmud “has no trace of kedushoh and emunoh,” arguing it would cause the Gemara to be forgotten, chaliloh, What about artscroll? Oh I forgot Steinzalts had connections to Chabad artscroll does not. ”

“ Can anyone tell me when art scroll hebrew will be completed? ”

“ Really? Can you tell me where in his study you saw it? ”

“ Your comment about his parents' statements are patently false. He is a baal teshuva and his parents weren't frum so your ra'aya is garbage. Rav Moshe had a set of Steinzaltz in his study. ”

“ If one were sitting on Rav Moshe's chair it would be on the second bookshelf on the left on the bottom shelf. Additionally, members of the mishpacha are mei'id he had them. I think it's unfair to Rav Shach to take his words out of the decidedly Israeli context in which he was speaking.
My Rebbe Rav Yaakov zatzal was not a big fan of the Gemaras (ayen Bimchitzas Rabbeinu pg 31) but he would never degrade such a work. Unfortunately there is a major disconnect between people who think they are right (self-made kannoim like you) and those that are right (the holy tzaddikim like Rav Yaakov zatzal, who stay away from such nivel peh to begin with). ”

“ this whole issue is about power,
as long as less people can read and understand the Gemorath in Aramaic, the more power and importance the ones that do understand have.

By making the Gemorath readable to all, takes away some of their power and the are afraid to loss it.

History is full of the elite not wanting the the regular people to understand the holy books they are no diffrentGemorath ”

“ I made it up?

Here's the quote form the love-filled Yid I was responding to:
On Shteinsaltz, he is quoted as saying “My grandfather used to say being an apikorus, a heretic, was better than being an am ha’aretz, an ignoramus”, and his father is quoted as saying “I do not care if my son is an apikores (heretic), but no son of mine will be an am-haaretz (ignoramus)". afrei lepumei. I think that says it all. ”

Which part did I misquote him on?
Do you now agree with me?

”

“ Why do you need to mention the eidus of mishpachah if you claim to have seen them yourself? ”

“ In some generations we are zocheh to a manhig recognized by all bnai torah as above and beyond the run of the mill talmid chachom. Our inability to understand every action or decision of the manhig of klal yisroel is not an indication that he has acted or decided incorrectly. Rather, our failure to understand the reasoning of the manhig of the generation, should be a catalyst to greater efforts in learning and mussar, so that we may be zocheh to understand his words. Until then, when the manhig of the generation speaks, we should humbly accept his opinion. We were zocheh to have such a manhig in Morainu ZTZ"L. What a pity some people couldn't appreciate the zechus and continue to think they can speak about Morainu ZTZ"L in any which way they choose. ”

“ You may accept anybody you want to be your manhig. Don't assume your rebbe is the manhig of all klal yisroel. There are many, many other equally great lamdanim and tzaddikim who manage to avoid machlokes, in keeping with the cardinal principle of Torah Judaism which is Shalom. Those who were able to master the principle of darchei noam are the true manhigim. ”

“ Instead of praising the Rav for undertaking such a task, there are people who just have to poke and belittle his efforts. What a chillul Hashem that yidden find it appropriate to act AND SPEAK this way. ”

“ stenzalts said (its printed) 'Halacho Moshe mesinai means a very old minhag'. If tha'ts not enough to label him as an apikores then what is? ”