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Jerusalem - Israel's Supreme Court: Kashrut Credibility is Not Judged by Halakhic Standards |
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News Source: Arutz 7 by Hillel Fendel
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The bakery, Pnina Pie, is owned by Pnina Comporati, a 51-year-old resident of Gan Yavneh who grew up in a traditional Yemenite household. Sixteen years ago, however, while working in the United States, she became a Messianic Jew. Photo credit VIN News JJJerusalem - Supreme Court Chief Justice Dorit Beinisch has ruled that the Rabbinate of Ashdod may not negate the kashrut authorization of a restaurant merely because the restaurant owner belongs to a Jesus-believing cult of Jews.
She thus reaffirmed an earlier Supreme Court ruling, denying a request for a re-hearing.
The ruling states that the Halakhic [Jewish legal] standards that measure when one’s personal kashrut claims may be believed are not part of the “hard core” of kashrut laws to which the State of Israel is obligated. Therefore, the fact that the rabbinate does not “trust” the owner is not sufficient reason to withhold the kashrut certification. The certification must be issued immediately, Beinisch ruled, and if not, the city’s Chief Rabbi will be fined.
Beinisch acknowledges that the messianic beliefs of the owner may well lead to “difficulties” in terms of the rabbi’s trust in his kashrut practices – but “the trustworthiness of a restaurant owner must be measured according to standards of general law, and not according to Halakhic standards.”
The rabbinate had demanded that a kashrut supervisor receive keys to the establishment and that he be the one to open and close it each morning and night. However, Judge Beinisch ruled that this demand was unreasonable and harmed the owner’s basic rights.
Yad L’Achim Calls for Urgent Meeting
The anti-missionary Yad L’Achim organization responded with outrage to the ruling, saying that missionaries will now be able to open restaurants featuring kashrut authorization accompanying their missionary activities.
“It is unprecedented and grave,” Yad L’Achim announced, “that the local Chief Rabbinate is not authorized to remove the kashrut certification from an establishment that identifies clearly with the Jewish Messianic missionary cult and cannot be trusted to keep the laws of kashrut.”
Yad L’Achim Director Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz has asked the Chief Rabbis to call an urgent meeting of rabbis to discuss the matter. He has also called upon religious Knesset Members to work to change the legislation in order to prevent this from happening. “This must be done immediately,” he said, “even if it causes a coalition crisis. Otherwise, missionaries, armed with official kashrut certifications, will be able to entice religious people into their waiting arms.”
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Read Comments (75) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:44 AM Anonymous Says:
Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded.
2
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:38 AM moshe Says:
OUTRAGEOUS ! Dorit has no comon sense. How did she ever become chief justice? Based on her logic, Why does the Rabbinut hashgacha even exist if they have no power to decide whom to certify. Any store owner in Israel can take the Rabbinut to court and demand that they be certified becuase the owners should be trusted
3
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM lev Says:
yes, i think you make a lot of sense, not giving kashruth for someone who is from a different faith is the same as not giving kashruth to someone who is from different chassidus, l'havdil. by the way are you jewish?
4
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:
This is the greatness ofthe USA the separation of church and state. How can the supreme court legislate halacha, as to whom is to be trusted in kashruth? We have the Shulchan Aruch which defines who can be trusted or not!
5
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
So who is suupposed to decide what's kosher? The Judge? So let him give them his own Kashrus Certificate! We have a Torah & a Shulchan Aruch that decides what's kosher, and a clear rule is that a Mumar cannot be trusted.
6
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:11 PM Anonymous Says:
“ yes, i think you make a lot of sense, not giving kashruth for someone who is from a different faith is the same as not giving kashruth to someone who is from different chassidus, l'havdil. by the way are you jewish? ”
"by the way are you jewish?”
As much as you (assuming you are a yid by your deft use of the term "l'havdil" but also cynical enough to know that if given blanket discretion, the rabbonim will use it to punish those they disagree with or with whom they don't agree on matters unrelated to kashruth. We have seen multiple instances of petty and mindless bickering and punitive actions by one chassidus against another including punishing mashgichim who become politically active against a candidate who is opposed by their vaad or supervising rebbe.
7
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
disgusting shame on you self hatered jew
8
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:59 AM Handy Says:
Not to start a debate - but who says the owner of any establishment must be a Jew who is "trustworthy in kashrut" matters? That's what a hechsher and mashgiach is for. Anywhere else in the world (including Israel with arab-owned establishments) you can be a total non-jew who owns and operates a restaurant and/or store selling food - and get a mashgiach to certify you. That's what a mashgiach does and why they are paid.
You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant...
If you trusted the owner as a religious jew - what does the mashgiach do?
So your own political beliefs on Messianic Jews notwithstanding - what's to prevent them from being halachically certified as kosher? Because you don't like them personally? That's discrimination and has no halachic basis.
Treat them like any other christian, and supervise them like anyone else.
9
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:18 PM Anonymous Says:
“ This is the greatness ofthe USA the separation of church and state. How can the supreme court legislate halacha, as to whom is to be trusted in kashruth? We have the Shulchan Aruch which defines who can be trusted or not! ”
" We have the Shulchan Aruch which defines who can be trusted or not!”
You are so right....individual mashgichim or rabbonim should not be allowed to take away the parnassah of a restaurant owner whose facility is 100 percent compliant with the laws of kashruth because they don't approve of the politics, lifestyle, or midos of the owner. Those judgements are for the Ebeshter not for us.
10
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
Are you kidding? The ne'emanus of the owner is a key factor in determining what level of supervision is necessary. If one is a "Min", as this owner definitely is, she has no ne'emanus according to Halacha, and a Mashgiach Temidi is necessary, with the mashgiach having access control to the facilities. That's all that the Rabbanut was asking for - that the Mashgiach be the one with the key, and be the one who opens and closes each day. Comparing this to being from the "wrong chasidus" is assinine.
11
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:
This is worse than the JFS crisis! Hashem should help us!
12
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:19 AM Anonymous Says:
And they call themselves a "Jewish" state???
13
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:
Tzooris Tzireeris
14
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:10 AM Mad charidi Says:
Absouletly horrified,can't even beleive it.
15
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:02 AM Anonymous Says:
The judge is right...but the problem is that her logic is sooo true that it works against her. Kosher isnt always kosher, and just because a J for J opens under Kashrus, with everything being "halachically" Kosher - the fraudelent intentions to lure other vulnerable souls makes the store "Treif".
16
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:28 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Are you kidding? The ne'emanus of the owner is a key factor in determining what level of supervision is necessary. If one is a "Min", as this owner definitely is, she has no ne'emanus according to Halacha, and a Mashgiach Temidi is necessary, with the mashgiach having access control to the facilities. That's all that the Rabbanut was asking for - that the Mashgiach be the one with the key, and be the one who opens and closes each day. Comparing this to being from the "wrong chasidus" is assinine. ”
It may be "assinine" to you but the Chief Judge has spoken and its the law in eretz yisroel. If you don't like the outcome, you can eat at home or find a restaurant whose ownership has the right "ne'emanus" whatever that means to you. Its not a legal term that lends itself to objective determination and thus irrelevant.
17
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:07 PM Anonymous Says:
Not to offend antbody but is this what we call a jewish state? Having a secular judge tell rabanim what they can and can't do according to halacha??? I mean all the rabanut said is that according to halacha THEY can not certify this place without having a mashgiach opening and closing the premises. In other words they ae not forcing anybody to get a kashrus certification but if you want US to certify it then you have to meet certain requests, now who does the jusge think she is that she can dictate on the rabanut when it comes to such PRIVELEGES as to be kosher certified???
18
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:05 PM Anonymous Says:
Very interesting. About 60 years ago, in London, Rabbi Abramski zt"l withdrew the kashrus licence from a a kosher shop because he found out that the owner was married to a non-jewess. The owner took him to court. The Rav admitted immediately that there was nothing wrong with the kashrus but he as the licencing authority and ultimate responsibility of the kashrus it was his absolute discretion to decide who is suitable to have a hechsher and what conditions qualify (or disqualify) one.
He won his case and costs were awarded in his favour.
19
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Absouletly horrified,can't even beleive it. ”
"Absouletly horrified,can't even beleive it."
I couldn't believe either that a local rabbinical board felt it should have the ability to arbitrarily deny hashgacha because they disliked the views of the restaurant owner. Fortunately, the court reversed the rabbinate's decision and this horrible precedent will not be allowed to stand and the rules of the shulchan aruch on kashruth, not some rabbi's personal judgements, will govern who gets a kashruth license.
20
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:
"You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant... "
Um yes, you DO if the owner is a goy (and an apostate is under the din of a goy)
I'm no talmid chacham but even I know this stuff. It's pretty basic, leaving me amazed at the utter ignorance of halachah demonstrated in many of the posts here. I am equally amamzed at the utter dearth of intelligent analysis of the ramifications of this decision. To wit, effectively speaking, the Israeli High (on drugs) Court has just overruled thousands of years of Jewish law and declared that apostate Jews are fully Jewish and must be treated as such..
21
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:11 PM joe shmoe Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
you must be messianic too! ill tell you why!
1) we have a shulchan aruch that states who can be trusted. based on your statement that is not politically correct, the missionaries should be able to decide. (or in this case with the court being halacha illiterate) they should redefine the definition for the word hashgacha.
2)im taking out a loan tomorrow. and guess what court says that you have to be co-signer. you have to take responsibility for my loan.
a rabbi that gives a hashgacha signs that under his responsibility one can eat this food. now the court is saying that I want you to certify this even though you know its halachacly forbidden to eat from it!
3) why can't she certify it herself?
22
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:39 PM R U 4 REAL??? Says:
“ Not to start a debate - but who says the owner of any establishment must be a Jew who is "trustworthy in kashrut" matters? That's what a hechsher and mashgiach is for. Anywhere else in the world (including Israel with arab-owned establishments) you can be a total non-jew who owns and operates a restaurant and/or store selling food - and get a mashgiach to certify you. That's what a mashgiach does and why they are paid.
You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant...
If you trusted the owner as a religious jew - what does the mashgiach do?
So your own political beliefs on Messianic Jews notwithstanding - what's to prevent them from being halachically certified as kosher? Because you don't like them personally? That's discrimination and has no halachic basis.
Treat them like any other christian, and supervise them like anyone else. ”
All frum kashrut orgainizations require the keys to open and close any establishment that they are concerned with the owners will or ability to keep kashrut. Additionally, depending on the product, will require a "masgiach temidi". Surely, this is called for in this instance, where the owner is worse than an arab, who would take no pleasure in seeing a yid eat non-kosher.
And to the idiot judge - kashrut is about halacha - the two are inseparable. Liberalism does not come into play in our religion. Of course, she can not be blamed, because she is ignorant of Judiasm
23
Nov 18, 2009 at 12:38 PM Anonymous Says:
This is just another in a series of attacks against Torah by the ZSSR (Zionist Soviet Socialist Republic)
24
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:28 PM Handy Says:
“ "You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant... "
Um yes, you DO if the owner is a goy (and an apostate is under the din of a goy)
I'm no talmid chacham but even I know this stuff. It's pretty basic, leaving me amazed at the utter ignorance of halachah demonstrated in many of the posts here. I am equally amamzed at the utter dearth of intelligent analysis of the ramifications of this decision. To wit, effectively speaking, the Israeli High (on drugs) Court has just overruled thousands of years of Jewish law and declared that apostate Jews are fully Jewish and must be treated as such..
”
"utter ignorance of halachah" that you claim... Ironic.
If you are talking about hechsher - as long as there is a mashgiach temidi, anyone can have a certification. Temidi means "always", and connotes that the mashgiach is there whenever the establishment is open. No need for the rabbi to turn the doornob and let the others in.
If you are talking about bishul akum - as long as the mashgiach (or any observant jew, not necessarily the mashgiach) turns on the oven and lights any pilot light - it fulfils the obligation. No need for the rabbi to have keys to the business.
If you are talking about a bakery shop like this one - they can sell whatever they want, as long as the mashgiach is on premises to supervise what they are selling and its culinary pedigree.
Can you tell me the names of goyish-owned stores which are only allowed to be unlocked in the morning and locked in the evening by some rabbi (who also is the caretaker of the keys to the establishment)?
Does the Coca Cola headquarters (under OU hechsher) have all the employees wait outside the building every morning for the rabbi to come with the keys to the gates? Come on... Don't confuse issues.
25
Nov 18, 2009 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:
As long as the on-site mashgiach is given access to whatever he/she wants and nothing his hidden, what the owner says/does in their personal lives is irrelevant. This is a bakery and coffee shop--not a steakhouse at the King David hotel. The judge properly struck down this ill-advised power grab by some local rav who decided to become the mashgiach ruchani of Gan Yavneh.
26
Nov 18, 2009 at 02:22 PM Michoel in London Says:
In these circumstances it is only fair to demand that the Masghiach and only him, has the keys to the establishment, and that without his presence the store cannot be opened. Regardless, the Rabbanut in question should be able and should be allowed to determine whom to grant a Kashrus certificate. The question in whether a Kashrus eligibility of any establishment is dependant exclusively upon the manner by which the food is prepared, which ingredients are used, and if this were the case, a brothel that might apply for a Kashrus certificate may be granted one, or whether the Rabbinate has the right to take into account also the type of activities which take place, the atmosphere, the type of clientele it wants to attract AND the general feeling that the owners can be trusted. Each case needs to be judged individually and the Rabbinate must have the power and the authority to decide according to their own conclusions. The late Rabbi Groner of Melbourne, I was told, granted Hashgocha, even when the caterer is a religious jew, only on condition that the masghich alone would have the keys to food preparing/handling premises.
27
Nov 18, 2009 at 02:20 PM monkey business Says:
the day will come that a erliche yid will not be able to live in eretz yisrael
moshich sould of caurse come much before that but the natural attitude of the government will force every yid out of there
28
Nov 18, 2009 at 02:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
There is a Shulchan Aruch pertaining to this issue also. Your personal opinions here have absolutely no value on the issue nor your sense of justice.
29
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:54 PM Satmar Says Says:
Sitting here and laughing. You asked for it. You wanted it. Here you got it. Now you understand what it means having a Rabbinate that is under the influence of the JEWISH STATE. I will let #1 sit in that shop with his kids and listen to his Messianic preachings.
30
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:52 PM torahyid Says:
“the trustworthiness of a restaurant owner must be measured according to standards of general law, and not according to Halakhic standards.” this statement is completely illogical, and she knows it, kosher by definition is what halacha defines as kosher, she can call it permitted b'ishur ha'baGatz, but not kosher; but why let logic get in the way of her agenda.
31
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Very interesting. About 60 years ago, in London, Rabbi Abramski zt"l withdrew the kashrus licence from a a kosher shop because he found out that the owner was married to a non-jewess. The owner took him to court. The Rav admitted immediately that there was nothing wrong with the kashrus but he as the licencing authority and ultimate responsibility of the kashrus it was his absolute discretion to decide who is suitable to have a hechsher and what conditions qualify (or disqualify) one.
He won his case and costs were awarded in his favour. ”
I meant Rav Abramski won the case. The (non jewish) judge ruled that the one and only the one who gives the hechsher can decide who should be licensed and he may impose any conditions he sees fit. He does not have to give a reason.
32
Nov 18, 2009 at 01:43 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "utter ignorance of halachah" that you claim... Ironic.
If you are talking about hechsher - as long as there is a mashgiach temidi, anyone can have a certification. Temidi means "always", and connotes that the mashgiach is there whenever the establishment is open. No need for the rabbi to turn the doornob and let the others in.
If you are talking about bishul akum - as long as the mashgiach (or any observant jew, not necessarily the mashgiach) turns on the oven and lights any pilot light - it fulfils the obligation. No need for the rabbi to have keys to the business.
If you are talking about a bakery shop like this one - they can sell whatever they want, as long as the mashgiach is on premises to supervise what they are selling and its culinary pedigree.
Can you tell me the names of goyish-owned stores which are only allowed to be unlocked in the morning and locked in the evening by some rabbi (who also is the caretaker of the keys to the establishment)?
Does the Coca Cola headquarters (under OU hechsher) have all the employees wait outside the building every morning for the rabbi to come with the keys to the gates? Come on... Don't confuse issues. ”
Coca Cola does not have OU hechsher. It is OU approved. Completely different.
33
Nov 18, 2009 at 03:22 PM Lawyer Says:
They should issue a hechsher which reads:
Kosher According To Dorit Beinisch
34
Nov 18, 2009 at 03:41 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
With this decision Beinish has declared open war on the Torah. The rabbi now has a chiyuv de'oraisa to resist this decision: "lo soguru mipnei ish". No government can be allowed to interfere with the halachic decisionmaking process; according to the Tashbetz this is literally yehoreg ve'al ya'avor. Not that it will come to that, in Israel; the worst that can happen is that he will be fined, and if so the community must help him pay it, but he must not back down. אשריך שנתפסת על דברי תורה, and the witch Beinish should have a mapoloh. הלא משנאיך ה׳ אשנא, ובמתקוממיך אתקוטט
35
Nov 18, 2009 at 03:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Coca Cola does not have OU hechsher. It is OU approved. Completely different. ”
so the little O and the little U is not a hechsher?
Does whatever you're smoking also not have a hechsher?
36
Nov 18, 2009 at 03:34 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
Why does VIN allow such open kefirah to be posted here? This anonymous commenter is easily recognised by his style of writing, and he writes the same kefirah on every article.
37
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:30 PM Milhouse Says:
“ All frum kashrut orgainizations require the keys to open and close any establishment that they are concerned with the owners will or ability to keep kashrut. Additionally, depending on the product, will require a "masgiach temidi". Surely, this is called for in this instance, where the owner is worse than an arab, who would take no pleasure in seeing a yid eat non-kosher.
And to the idiot judge - kashrut is about halacha - the two are inseparable. Liberalism does not come into play in our religion. Of course, she can not be blamed, because she is ignorant of Judiasm ”
Yes, she can be blamed, because she's only as ignorant as she wants to be. This is not an isolated decision; she is waging open and deliberate war against the Torah, and has been doing so for years - that's why she was selected for her position in the first place..
38
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:56 PM formally Says:
“ I meant Rav Abramski won the case. The (non jewish) judge ruled that the one and only the one who gives the hechsher can decide who should be licensed and he may impose any conditions he sees fit. He does not have to give a reason. ”
true
but is Israel it is a government agency I think and paid by the government and not private enterprise. And since, the hechsher agency did not say or proof that the food is not kosher they cannot discriminate.
As far as I know here in the USA all that is needed is a key to the place so the hechsher comapny can enter when they want, spot inspections, to make sure that they are following kosher laws
If it where a private enterprise the hechsher agency, them the judge has no say.
39
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:55 PM Ze'ev A. Says:
“ Yes, she can be blamed, because she's only as ignorant as she wants to be. This is not an isolated decision; she is waging open and deliberate war against the Torah, and has been doing so for years - that's why she was selected for her position in the first place..
”
Because she once voted 9 years ago to allow the Women of the Wall access to the Kosel? That's the "waging open and deliberate war against the Torah, and had been doing so for years - that's why she was selected for her position in the first place."???
I'm no fan, but to say that someone who pioneered against corporal punishment, parental child abuse, and focuses primarily on unearthing Israeli Government Corruption is a devil - that's just sad.
40
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:52 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "utter ignorance of halachah" that you claim... Ironic.
If you are talking about hechsher - as long as there is a mashgiach temidi, anyone can have a certification. Temidi means "always", and connotes that the mashgiach is there whenever the establishment is open. No need for the rabbi to turn the doornob and let the others in.
If you are talking about bishul akum - as long as the mashgiach (or any observant jew, not necessarily the mashgiach) turns on the oven and lights any pilot light - it fulfils the obligation. No need for the rabbi to have keys to the business.
If you are talking about a bakery shop like this one - they can sell whatever they want, as long as the mashgiach is on premises to supervise what they are selling and its culinary pedigree.
Can you tell me the names of goyish-owned stores which are only allowed to be unlocked in the morning and locked in the evening by some rabbi (who also is the caretaker of the keys to the establishment)?
Does the Coca Cola headquarters (under OU hechsher) have all the employees wait outside the building every morning for the rabbi to come with the keys to the gates? Come on... Don't confuse issues. ”
Regarding the hechsher, having worked for several years as a mashgiach at restaurants OU supervised plants (one that makes soy cheese and another that makes a popular brand of breaded eggplant -- both owned by goys), I have practical experience in these matters.
I believe post #22 summed it up nicely: "All frum kashrut orgainizations require the keys to open and close any establishment that they are concerned with the owners will or ability to keep kashrut. Additionally, depending on the product, will require a "masgiach temidi". Surely, this is called for in this instance..."
To expand, the level of supervision often depends on the trustworthiness of the owner. Even an otherwise shomer shabbos yid who has been lax or known to have 'cut corners" on kashrus may be subject to the strictest level of supervision. That may include, yes, the mashgiach opening and closing the establishment. Given that this person is an apostate and therefore definitionally are deemed utterly untrustworthy (especially so in religious matters -- like kashrus). Such measures are therefore highly appropriate in this case.
And, yes, I personally DO know of restaurants where this is also the case
41
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant... "
Um yes, you DO if the owner is a goy (and an apostate is under the din of a goy)
I'm no talmid chacham but even I know this stuff. It's pretty basic, leaving me amazed at the utter ignorance of halachah demonstrated in many of the posts here. I am equally amamzed at the utter dearth of intelligent analysis of the ramifications of this decision. To wit, effectively speaking, the Israeli High (on drugs) Court has just overruled thousands of years of Jewish law and declared that apostate Jews are fully Jewish and must be treated as such..
”
No, the Supreme Court simply said that any reasons unrelated directly to the kashrus of the coffee shop could not be used as a tool to deny them being called kosher.
This is the same as the ruling years back regarding the Israeli catering hall that was asked to stop mixed-dancing at their simchas, or have their kashrus revoked. As dancing has no bearing on food preparation in the kitchen, the request was ruled illegal, and the attempt at "religious coercion" was deemed draconian and irrelevant.
The Rabbi backed down, in the wake of a counter-suit.
42
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "utter ignorance of halachah" that you claim... Ironic.
If you are talking about hechsher - as long as there is a mashgiach temidi, anyone can have a certification. Temidi means "always", and connotes that the mashgiach is there whenever the establishment is open. No need for the rabbi to turn the doornob and let the others in.
If you are talking about bishul akum - as long as the mashgiach (or any observant jew, not necessarily the mashgiach) turns on the oven and lights any pilot light - it fulfils the obligation. No need for the rabbi to have keys to the business.
If you are talking about a bakery shop like this one - they can sell whatever they want, as long as the mashgiach is on premises to supervise what they are selling and its culinary pedigree.
Can you tell me the names of goyish-owned stores which are only allowed to be unlocked in the morning and locked in the evening by some rabbi (who also is the caretaker of the keys to the establishment)?
Does the Coca Cola headquarters (under OU hechsher) have all the employees wait outside the building every morning for the rabbi to come with the keys to the gates? Come on... Don't confuse issues. ”
Regarding bishul akum, you may be surprised to learn that Sephardim do not hold that it is sufficient to turn on the oven. They require that a yid do SOME of the actual cooking. See The Ben Ish Hai in Parashat Hukat (Shana Sheniya, 9) and Rav Ovadia Yosef, in Yehaveh Da'at.
44
Nov 18, 2009 at 05:11 PM awacs Says:
“ Are you kidding? The ne'emanus of the owner is a key factor in determining what level of supervision is necessary. If one is a "Min", as this owner definitely is, she has no ne'emanus according to Halacha, and a Mashgiach Temidi is necessary, with the mashgiach having access control to the facilities. That's all that the Rabbanut was asking for - that the Mashgiach be the one with the key, and be the one who opens and closes each day. Comparing this to being from the "wrong chasidus" is assinine. ”
Ok.
And when the owner comes back and says, "Fine. I want a Temidi with a long white beard, very knowledgeable and distinguished looking. I want him to stand over ... there, across from the J for J pamphlets, and just next to the missionary sign. Whatever I have to do to be kosher -lmehadrin!- is fine, so that I can attract a big Jewish crowd - the more, the merrier!"
You think the Rabanut would be happy with that?
45
Nov 18, 2009 at 05:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Regarding bishul akum, you may be surprised to learn that Sephardim do not hold that it is sufficient to turn on the oven. They require that a yid do SOME of the actual cooking. See The Ben Ish Hai in Parashat Hukat (Shana Sheniya, 9) and Rav Ovadia Yosef, in Yehaveh Da'at. ”
OK, fine.
But what does that have to do with the post you commented on? He or she said that in bishul akum possibilities the rabbi has to light the fire, not to keep the keys. So you said that there is a group of people who prefer the rabbi also to do SOME of the cooking too. Great, thanks. But does the Ben Ish Hai say that they need to be the one with the keys to a cafe, instead of the owner of the cafe?
46
Nov 18, 2009 at 05:13 PM thunderbird Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
They are not denying him a hashgacha.They are saying that he is not to be trusted and therefore must give the keys to the mashgiach.If not,how do we know what food he brings in ,inthe middle of the nite. The owner is like a goy whose word on kashrus cannot be believed.
47
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:17 PM Milhouse Says:
“ "You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant... "
Um yes, you DO if the owner is a goy (and an apostate is under the din of a goy)
I'm no talmid chacham but even I know this stuff. It's pretty basic, leaving me amazed at the utter ignorance of halachah demonstrated in many of the posts here. I am equally amamzed at the utter dearth of intelligent analysis of the ramifications of this decision. To wit, effectively speaking, the Israeli High (on drugs) Court has just overruled thousands of years of Jewish law and declared that apostate Jews are fully Jewish and must be treated as such..
”
Actually a goy doesn't automatically require a mashgiach temidi. There are many places in NY that are owned by goyim, and have hechsherim with a mashgiach nichnas veyotzei. At goyish-owned factories, it's common for the mashgiach to visit only once every few months, and that is perfectly accepted by every halachic authority. But that is only if the rov giving the hechsher trusts the owner; if he doesn't trust the owner (and a meisis cannot be trusted at all) then it is outrageous for a court to compel him to give a hechsher anyway.
It is also outragous, and completely against halacha, to speak in defense of a meisis, or to try to defend her parnassah.
48
Nov 18, 2009 at 04:03 PM Milhouse Says:
“ This is worse than the JFS crisis! Hashem should help us! ”
It is worse than the JFS crisis. Over there all the court ordered was that Jewish schools must admit goyim if they claim to be Jewish; at the end of the day there is no halocho that prevents the school from doing so. It's a mitzvah to fight the decision, because the court declared a halacha from the Torah to be illegal, but if that fight is lost then all the Jewish schools can simply say that from now on they will admit any goy who wants to attend, without recognising them as Jews. Surely they can still exclude the goyim from limudei kodesh. But here the court has directly ordered the rov to violate halacha, and that cannot be complied with under any circumstances. In Russia rabbonim were moser nefesh mamosh to resist such orders; in Israel BH the worst that can happen is a fine.
49
Nov 18, 2009 at 03:49 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Not to start a debate - but who says the owner of any establishment must be a Jew who is "trustworthy in kashrut" matters? That's what a hechsher and mashgiach is for. Anywhere else in the world (including Israel with arab-owned establishments) you can be a total non-jew who owns and operates a restaurant and/or store selling food - and get a mashgiach to certify you. That's what a mashgiach does and why they are paid.
You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant...
If you trusted the owner as a religious jew - what does the mashgiach do?
So your own political beliefs on Messianic Jews notwithstanding - what's to prevent them from being halachically certified as kosher? Because you don't like them personally? That's discrimination and has no halachic basis.
Treat them like any other christian, and supervise them like anyone else. ”
How much hashgacha a place needs depends on the owner's ne'emonus. Even a goy has a certain amount of ne'emonus, in limited circumstances, but a meisis umediach has none.
You should also be aware that it is FORBIDDEN by halacha to speak up in defense of a meisis.
50
Nov 18, 2009 at 03:44 PM Milhouse Says:
“ OUTRAGEOUS ! Dorit has no comon sense. How did she ever become chief justice? Based on her logic, Why does the Rabbinut hashgacha even exist if they have no power to decide whom to certify. Any store owner in Israel can take the Rabbinut to court and demand that they be certified becuase the owners should be trusted ”
She became chief justice EXACTLY because of this attitude. She was hand-picked by Aharon Barak ShRY, to continue and expand his coup. You have to understand that the Israeli judiciary is a self-perpetuating cabal; judges are picked by themselves, not by the elected government, and they state openly that their purpose is to impose leftist values on the whole nation, regardless of what the "less-enlightened" sectors want. The entire Israeli judiciary needs to be cleaned out, and if it's not done democratically then one day it will be done by force.
51
Nov 18, 2009 at 05:21 PM Handy Says:
“ This is the greatness ofthe USA the separation of church and state. How can the supreme court legislate halacha, as to whom is to be trusted in kashruth? We have the Shulchan Aruch which defines who can be trusted or not! ”
Because in the USA all of the kashrus organizations are private enterprises and can make whatever rules they want, and they can choose to deal with whatever private customers they want.
In Israel the rabbanut is a government agency. the rabbi is a state employee. the mashgiach salary is paid by taxes and he is a public official. their boss is a cabinet minister, who answers to elected parliament and the prime minister's office.
Nobody is legislating halacha. This is not a judge telling the badatz what to do. This is a judge telling a government employee to either do their job, regardless of their opinion of another citizen or discrimination of a political/religious group, or else don't be a government employee.
If the fire department decided that they won't put out a fire in your house because you believe in the Tooth Fairy, I would hope that the fire chief gets disciplined, at the very least... And you are welcome to sue them too.
52
Nov 18, 2009 at 06:28 PM haim ozer Says:
“ This is the greatness ofthe USA the separation of church and state. How can the supreme court legislate halacha, as to whom is to be trusted in kashruth? We have the Shulchan Aruch which defines who can be trusted or not! ”
because the rabbanut employees are civil servants in Israel. They work for the government, and cannot legally go against their job description. If someone working for the (publicly run) Israel Electric Corporation decided to flip a switch and cut off house power to a citizen because they were a missionary - the employee would either be fired, or the court would fine the IEC (if they were in support of the employee's actions).
The Badatz or Beis Yosef or Chasam Sofer are all private organizations - so nobody can tell them what to do or not. Just like all kashrus bodies in America are private too.
That's the difference.
If you are as frum as many of us here are - then you probably don't eat "rabbanut" hechshers anyway, so it shouldn't affect you in any way. And if you do, this may make you decide to be makpid for a more stringent supervision. The basic rabbanut te'udah is like tap water versus bottled water. A lot of people are machmir to drink bottled water (especially if it would cost almost the same as tap water).
53
Nov 18, 2009 at 06:49 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Regarding the hechsher, having worked for several years as a mashgiach at restaurants OU supervised plants (one that makes soy cheese and another that makes a popular brand of breaded eggplant -- both owned by goys), I have practical experience in these matters.
I believe post #22 summed it up nicely: "All frum kashrut orgainizations require the keys to open and close any establishment that they are concerned with the owners will or ability to keep kashrut. Additionally, depending on the product, will require a "masgiach temidi". Surely, this is called for in this instance..."
To expand, the level of supervision often depends on the trustworthiness of the owner. Even an otherwise shomer shabbos yid who has been lax or known to have 'cut corners" on kashrus may be subject to the strictest level of supervision. That may include, yes, the mashgiach opening and closing the establishment. Given that this person is an apostate and therefore definitionally are deemed utterly untrustworthy (especially so in religious matters -- like kashrus). Such measures are therefore highly appropriate in this case.
And, yes, I personally DO know of restaurants where this is also the case ”
Thank you for an informed comment.
I have personally eaten food from OU establishments owned by non-Jews; some with and some without a mashgiach tamidi.
54
Nov 18, 2009 at 06:37 PM Milhouse Says:
“ because the rabbanut employees are civil servants in Israel. They work for the government, and cannot legally go against their job description. If someone working for the (publicly run) Israel Electric Corporation decided to flip a switch and cut off house power to a citizen because they were a missionary - the employee would either be fired, or the court would fine the IEC (if they were in support of the employee's actions).
The Badatz or Beis Yosef or Chasam Sofer are all private organizations - so nobody can tell them what to do or not. Just like all kashrus bodies in America are private too.
That's the difference.
If you are as frum as many of us here are - then you probably don't eat "rabbanut" hechshers anyway, so it shouldn't affect you in any way. And if you do, this may make you decide to be makpid for a more stringent supervision. The basic rabbanut te'udah is like tap water versus bottled water. A lot of people are machmir to drink bottled water (especially if it would cost almost the same as tap water). ”
It's got nothing to do with whether anyone would eat there; none of us was planning to do so even with the best hechsher in the world. It's a matter of kiddush Hashem.
And you're wrong to belittle the rabbanut hechsher. Even the most basic rabbanut hechsher in EY is better than the standard hechsherim in the USA.
55
Nov 18, 2009 at 05:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ How much hashgacha a place needs depends on the owner's ne'emonus. Even a goy has a certain amount of ne'emonus, in limited circumstances, but a meisis umediach has none.
You should also be aware that it is FORBIDDEN by halacha to speak up in defense of a meisis. ”
Who's defending a meisis?
Drive them nuts with a mashgiach temidi following them every time they go to the bathroom and for a cigarette break. But, to decide to revoke a te'udah which they gave because the current mashgiach (collecting the monthly envelopes from their rounds) now found out they were messianic jews?
That's more of a rebuke of the civil servant mashgiach, not a defense of a meisis. There have been too many complaints against suspected corruption and/or impertinent civil servants and many of them get dropped when the local rabbanut backs down. By law they are forbidden to accept one penny from individuals as their salary is paid by the government only. But how many complaints are there of the "fees" which are "asked" by naiive jews?
Israel is over 20% non jewish, and (as its legal system follows common law) if there were any precedents to the actions of the rabbanut, they would have been cited - but the supreme court could not be shown any similar accepted case to back up the local civil servant (aka the rabbanut employee).
They were told "either do your job, or get fined".
I'm sure they will choose to pay the fine, if the store is really selling treif.
56
Nov 18, 2009 at 07:04 PM Anonymous Says:
So someone thinks little green men landed at roswell. They are barred from ever having a hechsher on a coffee shop? As long as they keep closed on shabbos, and don't serve pork - then you put a mashgiach in there to enforce everything. But if they call themselves "Area 51" and hang flying saucers from the walls you're gonna take away the hechsher you gave them only because believe in aliens is against halacha?
I think you guys are all a bit sci-fi convention here.
57
Nov 18, 2009 at 06:08 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Because in the USA all of the kashrus organizations are private enterprises and can make whatever rules they want, and they can choose to deal with whatever private customers they want.
In Israel the rabbanut is a government agency. the rabbi is a state employee. the mashgiach salary is paid by taxes and he is a public official. their boss is a cabinet minister, who answers to elected parliament and the prime minister's office.
Nobody is legislating halacha. This is not a judge telling the badatz what to do. This is a judge telling a government employee to either do their job, regardless of their opinion of another citizen or discrimination of a political/religious group, or else don't be a government employee.
If the fire department decided that they won't put out a fire in your house because you believe in the Tooth Fairy, I would hope that the fire chief gets disciplined, at the very least... And you are welcome to sue them too.
”
You are wrong. A rov is PAID by the state, but he does not work for the state, he works for Hashem.
For that matter, you wouldn't put up with a court ordering a doctor to change the way he treats his patients, to give a treatment that in his medical judgment is dangerous; and if a court did issue such an order you'd expect him to defy it even if he works at a state hospital. If a fire chief were to decide that it would be safer to let a particular fire burn itself out rather than try to extinguish it, you wouldn't put up with a court ordering him and his men to risk their lives by putting it out. But here for some reason it's different. That's because you are a KOFER BA'IKAR.
58
Nov 18, 2009 at 09:11 PM WAKE UP!!! Says:
You people are forgetting an important part of this article! Yad L'Achim and Rav Lifschitz should be praised and supported for their war defending Judaism. I can't stand when people sit here and comment pro, con. You believe she is wrong???? Put your money where your mouth is!!! Help Yad L'Achim in their battle! They have a website where you can donate. You can probably call one in as well. I did! Do something to protect true Torah Judaism!
59
Nov 18, 2009 at 10:52 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Regarding bishul akum, you may be surprised to learn that Sephardim do not hold that it is sufficient to turn on the oven. They require that a yid do SOME of the actual cooking. See The Ben Ish Hai in Parashat Hukat (Shana Sheniya, 9) and Rav Ovadia Yosef, in Yehaveh Da'at. ”
A good part of the cooking actually. To the extent that the Sephardic cook will be there actually supervising and actively engaged in the preparation of dishes. It's not enough for us to light hte stove and then walk away to shmooze with customers or whatever. This is a problem when traveling over Shabbat if a hotel employs Arabs to do the serving and a Jewish cook had only lit the stove on Friday before Shabbat came in.
60
Nov 18, 2009 at 09:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ OUTRAGEOUS ! Dorit has no comon sense. How did she ever become chief justice? Based on her logic, Why does the Rabbinut hashgacha even exist if they have no power to decide whom to certify. Any store owner in Israel can take the Rabbinut to court and demand that they be certified becuase the owners should be trusted ”
Dorit has one qualification she is a personal friend of aron brak the dictator of the Israeli justice system and since in isreal the judges vote in new judges it turns out to be a friend brings a friend
61
Nov 18, 2009 at 10:55 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Ok.
And when the owner comes back and says, "Fine. I want a Temidi with a long white beard, very knowledgeable and distinguished looking. I want him to stand over ... there, across from the J for J pamphlets, and just next to the missionary sign. Whatever I have to do to be kosher -lmehadrin!- is fine, so that I can attract a big Jewish crowd - the more, the merrier!"
You think the Rabanut would be happy with that? ”
The rabbanut spelled out the terms under which it would give her a hechsher. What more do you want?
62
Nov 18, 2009 at 10:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ OK, fine.
But what does that have to do with the post you commented on? He or she said that in bishul akum possibilities the rabbi has to light the fire, not to keep the keys. So you said that there is a group of people who prefer the rabbi also to do SOME of the cooking too. Great, thanks. But does the Ben Ish Hai say that they need to be the one with the keys to a cafe, instead of the owner of the cafe? ”
The Ben Ish Hai doesn't say a RABBI has to do the cooking. He says a Jew. It can be a woman. The ruling is applicable in our homes too regarding housekeepers and maids. I can't turn the kitchen of my home over to an Arab (or other gentile) maid just by lighting the fire and walking away. I actually have to be active in preparing the meal.
63
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Who's defending a meisis?
Drive them nuts with a mashgiach temidi following them every time they go to the bathroom and for a cigarette break. But, to decide to revoke a te'udah which they gave because the current mashgiach (collecting the monthly envelopes from their rounds) now found out they were messianic jews?
That's more of a rebuke of the civil servant mashgiach, not a defense of a meisis. There have been too many complaints against suspected corruption and/or impertinent civil servants and many of them get dropped when the local rabbanut backs down. By law they are forbidden to accept one penny from individuals as their salary is paid by the government only. But how many complaints are there of the "fees" which are "asked" by naiive jews?
Israel is over 20% non jewish, and (as its legal system follows common law) if there were any precedents to the actions of the rabbanut, they would have been cited - but the supreme court could not be shown any similar accepted case to back up the local civil servant (aka the rabbanut employee).
They were told "either do your job, or get fined".
I'm sure they will choose to pay the fine, if the store is really selling treif. ”
What on EARTH are you on about? Do you have the faintest idea of the facts, or do you just enjoy making it up as you go along? This fantasy of yours bears NO relationship whatsoever to the case.
64
Nov 19, 2009 at 12:05 AM mottel Says:
“ Kol hakovod to Judge Beinisch for not allowing some mashgiach or rebbe to personally expand or interpret what constitutes technical compliance with the laws of kashruth. Given that in EY, the award of kashruth certification is as important as a building permit, we cannot allow discretion or prejudice against the beliefs of the owners to determine whether the facility is in full compliance with the kashruth standards for that type of facility. If we allowed that to happen, these rabbonim or Vaads could deny hashgacha because the owner was from the "wrong chaaidus", didn't show derech eretz to the rebbe or some other mindless issue which has nothing to do with hashgacha. This is a wonderful outcome and should be applauded. ”
You are quite obviously an out and out apikoiros. Every single one of your posts praises something disgusting or corrupt. You are always on the side of the sitra achra, always against the Torah
65
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:21 PM Milhouse Says:
“ A good part of the cooking actually. To the extent that the Sephardic cook will be there actually supervising and actively engaged in the preparation of dishes. It's not enough for us to light hte stove and then walk away to shmooze with customers or whatever. This is a problem when traveling over Shabbat if a hotel employs Arabs to do the serving and a Jewish cook had only lit the stove on Friday before Shabbat came in. ”
It doesn't have to be much. It's enough if the mashgiach puts the food on the fire, or adds a pinch of salt to the pot. That isn't the issue here. The issue is that a meisis has no ne'emonus, and in any case nobody should be speaking up for her even if they think they have a point in her favour. אסור ללמד עליו זכות
66
Nov 19, 2009 at 04:49 AM Anonymous Says:
The case isn't about supporting a missionary. It's a complaint against the local rabbinate of overreaching. There have been many of them in the past years, some right some wrong. several times they have been fined, and several times not. here is one where they will have to pay a fine if they don't adhere to all of the previous court rulings. This judge did not decide suddenly that the woman is right and the halacha is wrong, it's been in court and appealed for a while. To end the story, it eventually had to go up the chain and the most senior judge said "there is no reason to appeal all of the earlier rulings and appeals" which were all lost anyway. Nothing new happened and nobody is protecting j for j in israel.
I think all of you just got your own rage to blind you into being way off topic.
67
Nov 19, 2009 at 03:00 AM matzahlocal101 Says:
“ Not to start a debate - but who says the owner of any establishment must be a Jew who is "trustworthy in kashrut" matters? That's what a hechsher and mashgiach is for. Anywhere else in the world (including Israel with arab-owned establishments) you can be a total non-jew who owns and operates a restaurant and/or store selling food - and get a mashgiach to certify you. That's what a mashgiach does and why they are paid.
You don't need to give the rabbinate a key and have them open and close the store/restaurant...
If you trusted the owner as a religious jew - what does the mashgiach do?
So your own political beliefs on Messianic Jews notwithstanding - what's to prevent them from being halachically certified as kosher? Because you don't like them personally? That's discrimination and has no halachic basis.
Treat them like any other christian, and supervise them like anyone else. ”
who says I must do business with everyone that walks through my door? If I'm a sofer and a skinhead wants to buy a torah so they auction off it's burning, di I have to sell it to him? If a guy walks into my chasidisha levush store wearing a Jesus made me kosher T shirt, Am I required to sell him a beketsheh so he can be a more convincing proselytizer? If I own a judaica store must I sell mezuzahs to every arrel that walks through the door? Does a secular state have the right to tell mehow to write mezuzahs, how to make the proper beketsheh, who may or may not write a sefer Torah? The secular anti-religious Zionist state, is showing it's true colors and while screaming "Kafiyah Datit" because the Orthodox are offended and try to prevent a toayvah parade, antiethical to every fiber Judaism, from marching through Jerusalem, at the same time kafiyah chilonit is OK when the secular court dictates halachic standards to the rabbinate. The Israeli government has as much right to dictate kashrus standards as the Obama Gov't has to give semichah. Maybe the banks should stop discriminating against people with bad credit?
68
Nov 19, 2009 at 12:20 AM starwolf Says:
“ She became chief justice EXACTLY because of this attitude. She was hand-picked by Aharon Barak ShRY, to continue and expand his coup. You have to understand that the Israeli judiciary is a self-perpetuating cabal; judges are picked by themselves, not by the elected government, and they state openly that their purpose is to impose leftist values on the whole nation, regardless of what the "less-enlightened" sectors want. The entire Israeli judiciary needs to be cleaned out, and if it's not done democratically then one day it will be done by force. ”
So Milhouse is threatening to "clean out the entire Israeli judiciary by force"?
Maybe Milhouse is advocating throwing dirty diapers and rocks at the Supreme Court, or perhaps other, more violent means that he has advocated in the past against people with whom he disagrees.
Whether Milhouse likes it or not, most Israelis are happy with our court system. In fact, the vast majority of Israelis would prefer almost any system over one run by people like Milhouse.
Simply because certain sectors of society have no compunction about using force --does not mean that other sectors do not have the ability as well. And, for the most part, those sectors that advocate using force to achieve their ends (as does Milhouse) are those least trained to do so.
Open violence in society is rarely confined to one side.
If civil war is what Milhouse is advocating, (does this remind anyone of Khamsa - Bar Khamsa?) it would indeed be a tragedy. Milhouse shows his lack of concern for Jewish society in general, and Israeli society in particular, by making such statements.
69
Nov 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM Milhouse Says:
“ So someone thinks little green men landed at roswell. They are barred from ever having a hechsher on a coffee shop? As long as they keep closed on shabbos, and don't serve pork - then you put a mashgiach in there to enforce everything. But if they call themselves "Area 51" and hang flying saucers from the walls you're gonna take away the hechsher you gave them only because believe in aliens is against halacha?
I think you guys are all a bit sci-fi convention here. ”
Another fantasy that bears NO relationship whatsoever to the facts of the case.
And there's nothing wrong with believing in the Roswell mishugaas. Not that most people who make money from it do; it's just business for them.
70
Nov 19, 2009 at 09:34 AM chezzi Says:
“ who says I must do business with everyone that walks through my door? If I'm a sofer and a skinhead wants to buy a torah so they auction off it's burning, di I have to sell it to him? If a guy walks into my chasidisha levush store wearing a Jesus made me kosher T shirt, Am I required to sell him a beketsheh so he can be a more convincing proselytizer? If I own a judaica store must I sell mezuzahs to every arrel that walks through the door? Does a secular state have the right to tell mehow to write mezuzahs, how to make the proper beketsheh, who may or may not write a sefer Torah? The secular anti-religious Zionist state, is showing it's true colors and while screaming "Kafiyah Datit" because the Orthodox are offended and try to prevent a toayvah parade, antiethical to every fiber Judaism, from marching through Jerusalem, at the same time kafiyah chilonit is OK when the secular court dictates halachic standards to the rabbinate. The Israeli government has as much right to dictate kashrus standards as the Obama Gov't has to give semichah. Maybe the banks should stop discriminating against people with bad credit? ”
If you are a private citizen, you're right. If you're a private enterprise or business, you're right. If you are an independent kashrus organization, you're right.
But the body in question is the Mo'atzah Datit (which gives the Te'udah of the Rabbanut here in Israel). They are a public office and their employees are civil servants paid by the government - in which case, their boss (the state) can decide the terms of their employment and job responsibilities. Each person/employee can choose to work instead for one of the many private and independent rabbinic/torah/kashrus mosdos, if they want.
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Nov 19, 2009 at 09:22 AM Handy Says:
“ So Milhouse is threatening to "clean out the entire Israeli judiciary by force"?
Maybe Milhouse is advocating throwing dirty diapers and rocks at the Supreme Court, or perhaps other, more violent means that he has advocated in the past against people with whom he disagrees.
Whether Milhouse likes it or not, most Israelis are happy with our court system. In fact, the vast majority of Israelis would prefer almost any system over one run by people like Milhouse.
Simply because certain sectors of society have no compunction about using force --does not mean that other sectors do not have the ability as well. And, for the most part, those sectors that advocate using force to achieve their ends (as does Milhouse) are those least trained to do so.
Open violence in society is rarely confined to one side.
If civil war is what Milhouse is advocating, (does this remind anyone of Khamsa - Bar Khamsa?) it would indeed be a tragedy. Milhouse shows his lack of concern for Jewish society in general, and Israeli society in particular, by making such statements.
”
It's Kamtza and Bar Kamtza (not Khamsa, unless the civil war was fought over whether people can hang arabic hand amulets from their homes and cars...)
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Nov 18, 2009 at 05:39 PM awacs Says:
“ Are you kidding? The ne'emanus of the owner is a key factor in determining what level of supervision is necessary. If one is a "Min", as this owner definitely is, she has no ne'emanus according to Halacha, and a Mashgiach Temidi is necessary, with the mashgiach having access control to the facilities. That's all that the Rabbanut was asking for - that the Mashgiach be the one with the key, and be the one who opens and closes each day. Comparing this to being from the "wrong chasidus" is assinine. ”
And, when the Rabbinate issues a certificate saying, "Yeah, the Supreme Court of Wacko Liberals forced me to issue a kashrut certificate to this place, but I wouldn't let my DOG eat here because ... " what happens next?
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Nov 18, 2009 at 05:36 PM Ze'ev A. Says:
“ She became chief justice EXACTLY because of this attitude. She was hand-picked by Aharon Barak ShRY, to continue and expand his coup. You have to understand that the Israeli judiciary is a self-perpetuating cabal; judges are picked by themselves, not by the elected government, and they state openly that their purpose is to impose leftist values on the whole nation, regardless of what the "less-enlightened" sectors want. The entire Israeli judiciary needs to be cleaned out, and if it's not done democratically then one day it will be done by force. ”
I don't condone her as a person, or as a judge, or as a fashion model.
But your public cries to "the entire israeli judiciary needs to be cleaned out... one day it will be done by force" are quite disturbing.
So that a jew-for-jesus can have their hashgacha revoked because of their personal beliefs, you advocate the violent overthrow of a government, or imply a Pulsa Denurah of "the entire Israeli judiciary"?
Do your neighbors have restraining orders on you? I'd be worried.
You seemed to be a productive member of the debate here, but then something wore off of the pills, and you crossed a line.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 08:24 AM Milhouse Says:
“ So Milhouse is threatening to "clean out the entire Israeli judiciary by force"?
Maybe Milhouse is advocating throwing dirty diapers and rocks at the Supreme Court, or perhaps other, more violent means that he has advocated in the past against people with whom he disagrees.
Whether Milhouse likes it or not, most Israelis are happy with our court system. In fact, the vast majority of Israelis would prefer almost any system over one run by people like Milhouse.
Simply because certain sectors of society have no compunction about using force --does not mean that other sectors do not have the ability as well. And, for the most part, those sectors that advocate using force to achieve their ends (as does Milhouse) are those least trained to do so.
Open violence in society is rarely confined to one side.
If civil war is what Milhouse is advocating, (does this remind anyone of Khamsa - Bar Khamsa?) it would indeed be a tragedy. Milhouse shows his lack of concern for Jewish society in general, and Israeli society in particular, by making such statements.
”
Let me be very clear. I advocate firing the entire Israeli Supreme Court, with as much force as is needed to achieve that.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 08:31 AM Milhouse Says:
“ I don't condone her as a person, or as a judge, or as a fashion model.
But your public cries to "the entire israeli judiciary needs to be cleaned out... one day it will be done by force" are quite disturbing.
So that a jew-for-jesus can have their hashgacha revoked because of their personal beliefs, you advocate the violent overthrow of a government, or imply a Pulsa Denurah of "the entire Israeli judiciary"?
Do your neighbors have restraining orders on you? I'd be worried.
You seemed to be a productive member of the debate here, but then something wore off of the pills, and you crossed a line. ”
Have you been paying ANY attention to what has been going on in Israel for the past 20 years or so? Do you have any idea what the Israeli judiciary has been up to? What on earth gave you the idea that the problems begin with this case?
It's interesting, though, that you use the phrase "the violent overthrow of a government". That is precisely the point: the judiciary IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT and it's about time it was made to stop pretending that it is. Under Aharon Barak ShRY the Supreme Court has effectively usurped power from the elected government. A pulsa denura (if such a thing actually existed) would not be too harsh for them.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 12:34 AM daath yachid Says:
Justice Benish’s recent ruling that wrested authority for Kashrut certification from the Rabbinate only serves to reaffirm my developing theory that those who embrace liberal –leftist ideology live in a reality parallel to our own..
The present has its roots in the past. American law has its origins in the common law of England which in turn has connections to the Roman civil law who in turn took legal principles from the Greeks who had contact with the Prophets, Scholars and scribes of Israel .
Similarly, Israeli Law is a patchwork of Ottoman, British and the sensibilities associated with generic values associated with liberal democracies. As necessary the courts will look at Jewish legal sources and in fairness probably more often than other jurisdiction though it does not enjoy the status it should have in the Jewish State. The Jewish Legal Heritage represents over three thousand years of scholarship and precedent
All jurisprudence has its origins in what came before. Though circumstances can and do change the variations are transient whereas the essentials of the human condition remain a constant. Therefore even though technology and standards of living can change ancient principles are still applicable in the present day. This is why a legal system needs a sense of fidelity to history as this adds authority and reliability to a particular society’s legal system.
The study of Mishpat HaIvrei, academic study of Jewish Law is a recognized discipline in Law Schools throughout the world. As an Attorney and Rabbi and even more so as a Jew it would be a source of pride and demonstration of the nation’s eternal nature that the Israel’s judiciary and Supreme Court embrace as well as respect the Jewish Legal Heritage.
Israel ’s Supreme Court and in particular under Justice Barak and now Justice Benish displays what comes across as a disdain to Jews and Judaism. When the Supreme Court recently ruled that Jews have a right of worship on the Temple Mount as well as some other positive rulings it was viewed as a cause for blessing He Who works miracles. The Court has long inserted itself in the Rabbinate’s jurisdiction in conversion,divorce and kosher certification. The present ruling reported by Israel National News .Arutz -7 The Ashdod Rabbinate withdrawing Kosher Supervision from an establishment operated by a Jew who claims belief in the object of Christian veneration. It was reported that the Court declared that;
. . . Halakhic [Jewish legal] standards that measure when one’s personal kashrut claims may be believed are not part of the “hard core” of kashrut laws to which the State of Israel is obligated. Therefore, the fact that the rabbinate does not "trust" the owner is not sufficient reason to withhold the kashrut certification (INN/A7 news story 11/18/2009)
Such a ruling further strips the rabbinate of authority and credibility. It is equally astonishing that the Chief Rabbis, Rabbis Amar and Metzger or other rabbinic associations have not pledged to protest/defy the Supreme Court’s ruling. Nor has legislation been proposed in the Knesset to fix this situation. Why ? Is there a lack of commitment or intimidation? Or does inaction to restoring the rabbinate’s honor stem from a sense of despair?
The frontiers of arrogance are apparently being mapped out by Justice Benish and her ilk. Ruling that Kosher certification has a secular definition that lie beyond the reach of rabbinic authority reads like a Purim satire. Again not just to those who already observe Torah and Mitzvoth but any proud Jew’s passions should enflamed. This issue is a further symptom of the worldview that cannot see the imperative to retain all of Jerusalem, how Mama Rachel weeps at her children having to encase her tomb under a bunker or how our grand parents in Hevron are surrounded by hostile neighbors and on and on. Those who subscribe to Justice Benish’s way of thinking see operation cast lead as collective punishment of Gazan Arabs or see a realistic option in engaging Iran in real diplomatic dialogue.
It seems necessary for the Rabbinate and all well meaning folks to rebuff the Supreme Court’s insult and to seek out the assertion of authority not in the spirit of arrogance but as an expression of self esteem. Now as the Jewish character of the state is openly challenged both from within and without. Now, is the time for Israeli government to embrace Judaism’s heritage in the state’s public life