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New York - Anti-Zionist Group: Five Towns Jewish Times Newspaper Distorting Views of Toldos Avraham Yitzchok, Editor Responds |
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News Source: VIN News/ Natruna
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A reception for the Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe was held Thursday evening of last week at Congregation Shaaray Tefila in Lawrence. Seated are Rabbi Dovid Weinberger (at left) and the Rebbe. Standing are event chairman Sender Schwartz and two aides to the Rebbe.
The Rebbe’s grandfather, Rabbi Aharon Roth, the Shomer Emunim Rebbe (1894-1946), was the founder of the community. It is said that Rabbi Aharon Roth was once taking a walk in the field and his disciples wanted to bring him a chair to sit on and rest. But Rabbi Roth refused, preferring to sit down on a rock. “I don’t want to sit on something that the wicked Zionists made,” he said. “I would like to sit on a place that these wicked people did not yet touch and defile.”
The Rebbe’s father and predecessor was Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok Kahn, known as the Toldos Aharon Rebbe. He passed away in 1996. Two years before the end of his life, he wrote in his book Igros Divrei Emunah (p. 225) that Zionism has become a worse sin in the eyes of G-d now that religious Jews have become the strongest Zionists. This places the entire Jewish people in danger. “As long as Zionism was a largely secular movement,” he said, “the defending angels in G-d’s court could at least say that the keepers of the Torah, the most important segment of the Jewish people, has nothing to do with this state that violates G-d’s decree of exile. But now that many religious Jews have begun to speak of Eretz Yisroel as if it is ours and it is forbidden to return it, thus aligning themselves with the Zionist ideal, the angels no longer have any defense, may Hashem have mercy.”
The current Rebbe continues faithfully in their tradition. But last week, when he visited the Modern Orthodox community of Lawrence, New York, this tradition brought him into conflict with the local community members, most of whom are strong Zionists. As the Rebbe held a tish and spoke with individuals, some in Lawrence asked why they should give money to support an anti-Zionist community. The controversy was deepened by the perception that Toldos Avraham Yitzchok members were central players in the recent demonstrations in the streets of Jerusalem against a parking lot opened by the mayor on Shabbos.
Seeking to make peace between the Rebbe and the Lawrence community, Larry Gordon, editor of the Five Towns Jewish Times, went to interview the Rebbe and his wife and then made the interview the subject of a lead article in his newspaper. Quite understandably, Gordon set out to portray the Rebbe as a Zionist, whose only complaint is that the State of Israel is not religious enough. However, the way in which he went about it, using falsified quotations and his own specious arguments, does not reflect well on the reliability of his journalism.
We should mention that the Five Towns Jewish Times is a weekly paper that reads less like a source of news and more like a Zionist propaganda organ. For example, this past week, under the headline “Toldos Avraham Yitzchok: Perception vs. Reality 
” (i.e. it is not anti-Zionist as it appears) were two other headlines: “We Are All Israelis” and “This Land is Our Land”. The paper is distributed all over Flatbush and given out for free, in restaurants and street-corner boxes. It is clearly an ideologically motivated publication.
In the article Gordon wrote: “Their Old World traditions handed down through the generations, however, are also shrouded in controversy, as fringe elements organize sometimes violent demonstrations on the streets of Jerusalem on matters they feel come into conflict with the sanctity of Shabbos, particularly in their carefully cut-out conclaves and neighborhoods. Who the actual players are in these unnecessary and embarrassing demonstrations is largely unclear.
”These activities, though, combined with the community’s official position of non-recognition of the legitimacy of the secular State of Israel, brought them at loggerheads with others this week as they seek material support from communities who are identified by their strong support for the State of Israel.
”I sat down with the Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe and his Rebbetzin between appointments to see people last Sunday—some of whom had flown in from other parts of North America—to try to clarify and understand where the Rebbe and his chassidim stand on the all-important issue of support for the State of Israel.
“’What it comes down to, very briefly, is that the government violates Shabbos and sanctions this desecration,’ the Rebbe said clearly and calmly in Yiddish. ‘If there would not be this violation of Shabbos, we would have absolutely no problem with the State of Israel.’”
The publication of these words in the Rebbe’s name caused an uproar in anti-Zionist communities throughout the New York area and elsewhere. Dozens of people wrote to the Five Towns Jewish Times website and other sites where the story was republished, declaring unequivocally that the Rebbe must have been misquoted. Our own organization, Jews Against Zionism, received incredulous phone calls and emails asking us to get to the bottom of this.
We contacted the Rebbe’s wife, who told us as follows: 1) It was not the Rebbe who spoke to Gordon, only she. The Rebbe was present at the meeting but did not say anything. 2) The Rebbe and the Rebbetzin were not aware that this was an interview, much less with a Zionist newspaper. Had they known this, they would not have agreed to speak to Gordon, lest he misrepresent their views. They were under the impression that Gordon was just another one of hundreds who come to speak with the Rebbe. 3) She did not make the statement quoted in the article. She did speak against those demonstrators who throw stones, saying that the Rebbe was strongly opposed to that. On that point Gordon quoted her correctly. 4) The Rebbe has decided not to fight the newspaper for misquoting him, or to issue a denial, because these Zionists are impossible to deal with, and even a denial will not help.
Mr. Gordon continues to postulate about the Rebbe’s “Zionism”:
“Based on what the Rebbe and his wife had to say, and taking them at their word, it seems that they are simply principled people who, as observant Jews, find the desecration of Shabbos in the land of the Jews intolerable…
”To many of us, the image of Israel and her survival is the greatest and most challenging undertaking of our time. I don’t believe that the Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe feels any differently about this issue. It may very well be that those chassidim of various sects—perhaps only on the periphery—who question the entire concept of Zionism, its proliferation, and support do so because of the fashion in which Shabbos has been trampled on all too often over the years…”
Actually, the greatest challenge of our time is the challenge that the Zionist state presents to Judaism. By substituting a man-made state for G-d’s promise of redemption, the state has undermined the foundations of our faith, and has made a mockery of the hopes of Jews for 2000 years. Thank G-d that there are still Jews who remember those hopes and have not thrown them away to jump on the Zionist bandwagon. The most challenging undertaking of our time will be to bring back the rest of the Jewish people to their original faith and to undo all the damage the Zionists have done.
To suggest that the main issue is observance of Shabbos is to trivialize the true main issue. We hope that from now on nobody will take Larry Gordon’s articles, or anything in his newspaper, seriously.
Below is a response sent to VIN News from Larry Gordon editor of Five Towns Jewish Times
Obviously the authors of this anonymous web submission are indulging in extreme propaganda combined with large doses of fabrication. Clearly, this
group pejoratively labels anyone that does not fit in with their particular brand of extremism Our preliminary research has identified this group as a former affiliate or offshoot of the extreme anti-Zionists that met with the Iranian leader. Let me just make a few brief points:
1. At least one other person was in the room when I conducted the interview with the Rebbe and Rebbitzen. The comments that were made in response to a series of questions can be independently verified.
2. Both the Rebbe and Rebbitzen were made aware, in my presence, that our conversation was, in fact, for a newspaper interview. A copy of the paper was shown to both of them.
3. All statements or comments attributed to either the Rebbe or the Rebbitzen were carefully transcribed and are accurately quoted. Considering the
circumstances they are in, I can understand the rationale in not fully revealing to this group some of the things that were said. It's probably important to note that after several remarks the Rebbe or the Rebbitzen asked that a specific remark not appear in the article. That request was honored.
The 5 Towns Jewish Times stands by its story and does not have to explain anything to people who write from the shadows.
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Read Comments (66) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:
I am so glad they have cleared this up. I guess the Jewish Star was right after all.
2
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:52 AM Anonymous Says:
After all they made a terible "Chillul Hashem". They made a discusting look om chariedim. If they do know how to play the show of "Chanufa" why didn't they do it till now.
3
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:47 AM chassidishe Zionist Says:
When the article was published, how did local people react? Did any withdraw their pledges or cancel their checks? Did people refuse to meet with them?
Why are you all surprised? The Rebbe, while maybe not despising the "sinner" despises the "sin" - Zionism. So why does he live there? A simple, naive argument that has, at least for me, very serious ramifications.
The Rebbe has more of a right to criticize the govt: he lives there. We don't. However to bury one's head in the sand & either ignore the needs of the Cholonim or throw stones is not the way to effect change. We all know that.
Sender Schwartz is a local, he knows exactly how to manipulate the system. You expect me to believe he was as surprised as the Rebbe when he read the article? You have to be kidding! Go back & see WHY 5Towns JN was selected for this rare interview.
I know Larry Gordon. He is a rare breed, an honest reporter, & I have no doubt he informed these holy visitors exactly the issues that would be discussed. I am certain Larry reported verbatim what was said. If the Rebbetzin came across poorly, who's to blame for that? She spoke freely. He reported. Can they expect broken windows & demonstrations now?
4
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:42 AM Achdus Says:
Its too bad we couldnt just debate Zionism using only the Torah. Unfortunately, ad homenim attacks and emotions get in the way of fruitful discussion. Both sides seek to villianize the other and that is no way to win anyone over. Personally as an AntiZionist I believe that most Zionists are tinok shenishbah, born into their beliefs but I am sure most Zionists feel the same way about me. If this is true then what makes it right to attack one another? During these trying times when we are feeling the flames of growing antisemitism it is foolish to divide the Jewish people. So I implore everyone to be respectful, and open your mind to other possibilities and maybe we will learn something one another.
5
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:41 AM Anonymous Says:
Go Larry Gordon!! Blow these meshuganahs out of the water!
The 5tjt is an excllenet paper and is following the ways of ahron hakohen - bakesh shalom verodfaihu. We should all learn from him.
6
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:40 AM formally Says:
the Toldos Avraham should have kept quiet they sound more like lunatics now.
Not to sit on a chair that was weaved by a Zionist, but in Europe he sat on chairs weaved by anti-Semitic people . What does he do, impart all chairs and check who weaved it. I see a haschgucha for furniture coming soon.
I wish the Toldos Avraham suite for libel and then we can get to the bottom of this.
Funny ther recant came after he collected the money, why not right away?
7
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:39 AM Anonymous Says:
This gorden is messing with the wrong guy.
you don't start with a Tzaddik.
8
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:38 AM Anonymous Says:
why is vos is neias quoting articles and responses from neturei karta???? they have been put in cherem by everysingle chareidi group.
9
Nov 19, 2009 at 08:34 AM dovid's friend Says:
I think it is time to let this issue go to the wayside and move on.
10
Nov 19, 2009 at 09:04 AM NOT NK Says:
“ why is vos is neias quoting articles and responses from neturei karta???? they have been put in cherem by everysingle chareidi group. ”
Natruna is NOT NK and neither is the group " Jews Against Zionism" . Both are affiliated primarily with Satar Chassidim.
11
Nov 19, 2009 at 09:03 AM jancsi Says:
i must say the article is interesting especially where it says the story of the rebbe being given a chair and refusing saying that he doesnt want to sit on a chair the wicked zionists made well let me say that it takes one to know one if the rebbe sees evil in others the he must have similar evil in himself thats all i want to say it takes one to know one
12
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM Anonymous Says:
“ i must say the article is interesting especially where it says the story of the rebbe being given a chair and refusing saying that he doesnt want to sit on a chair the wicked zionists made well let me say that it takes one to know one if the rebbe sees evil in others the he must have similar evil in himself thats all i want to say it takes one to know one ”
That is nonsense... Take a look at what Queen Esther said to King Ahasuerus " For how can I endure to see the evil that will come to my people? Or how can I endure to see the destruction of my countrymen?" (Est 8:6) There are many other places in Torah where evil is seen and corrected. What do you think the job of the neviim where? To remove the evil amongst us so it does not corrupt us....
13
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM DizzyIzzy Says:
Incredible!!! A textbook case of biting the hand that feeds you.
That article was a gift from Larry Gordon.
His softball reporting and puff piece slant was clearly intended to give the rebbe a safe forum to sugarcoat his outrageous philosophical excesses. It’s most likely that Mr. Gordon's interest was to pave the way for the rebbe's return (READ: major advertising dollars!); to blunt criticism directed at Rabbi Dovid Weinberger, and; to undermine the credibility of Mr. Gordon's principal and principled competition, The Jewish Star.
But none of this diminishes the golden opportunity Mr. Gordon gave the rebbe. And for all his transparent cynicism, I emphatically reject any claim that Mr. Gordon is purposefully manipulative, or a liar.
The rebbe's shocking distortion of facts, vis-à-vis his 5TJT interview; his childish retreat behind his wife to avoid owning up to his statements; his gross lack of Hakaras HaTov, and; his willingness to throw a fellow Jew under the bus when it suits his needs, is a telling reflection of his character, and a sad reminder of what passes for gadlus these days.
14
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:04 AM Robert Says:
“ Its too bad we couldnt just debate Zionism using only the Torah. Unfortunately, ad homenim attacks and emotions get in the way of fruitful discussion. Both sides seek to villianize the other and that is no way to win anyone over. Personally as an AntiZionist I believe that most Zionists are tinok shenishbah, born into their beliefs but I am sure most Zionists feel the same way about me. If this is true then what makes it right to attack one another? During these trying times when we are feeling the flames of growing antisemitism it is foolish to divide the Jewish people. So I implore everyone to be respectful, and open your mind to other possibilities and maybe we will learn something one another. ”
as a person who believes in religious zionism, i applaud and agree with your message of respect and unity in the jewish people.
i wish we could talk more
15
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM gelt Says:
I do not want to seat in a chair from a zionist, but I want their gelt to buy the chair
16
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM NYCbuff Says:
i have known Larry Gordon and his brother several years now. i can very open say they are both great and honest people...Larry is a great writer and does not write what he dreams.
Larry: one word for you... Chazak!! -k-
17
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:22 AM Anonymous Says:
the real question is not on mr gordon but of the rebba if he did indeed make these statemewnts they are not in his idealogy then it was said to shut up the dumb americans to pick their pockets go to him or his brother ansd see for your self this a money making machine and we americans are the cash cows
18
Nov 19, 2009 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:
we may all have different beleifs, however one thing is clear.
this man is holy
I wouldnt start up with him.
he promised a relative of mine that they will have a child (after many years of hoping,trying and waiting) and he was right!
19
Nov 19, 2009 at 09:38 AM Aaron Says:
“ why is vos is neias quoting articles and responses from neturei karta???? they have been put in cherem by everysingle chareidi group. ”
Can you please tell the name of any one Chareidi Group that has put Neturei Karta in Cherem????
20
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:32 AM A.N. Says:
The anti-Zionism from the Satmar Rav and others in his circle had little to do with secularism, which for them is a peripheral issue. If I recall VaYoel Moshe correctly, it's the Three Oaths, and the shitah that any sovereignty can't occur before the geulah proper. The statement by the rebbe that reduces the controversy down to chilul Shabbos is thus astonishing.
I doubt that Larry Gordon would purposely distort the rebbe's words to fit some agenda- I would sooner find a more benign reason than accuse another Jew of dishonesty (but see Al Geula V'HaTemura for another view on ZIonist journalists). Perhaps the rebbe was refering to active opposition to the State through protests and the like. If the gov't would be shomer shabbos ,the rebbe would oppose demonstrations but remain opposed to the State passively. This is all speculation, but I believe it's a reasonable explanation because it's consistent with the non-crazy anti-Zionist's shitah and avoids accusing Gordon of lying.
21
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:45 AM Anonymous Says:
lets not forget this holy man did not take el al airlines [dont be mafarness the zionist]and was stopped by customs. hurt them where it hurts ,in their pockets.Dumb americans feeding these low lifes
22
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Can you please tell the name of any one Chareidi Group that has put Neturei Karta in Cherem????
”
Both Satmar Rebbes
23
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:44 AM Anonymous Says:
Sender Schwartz is a man of great integrity. If he supports the rebbe that is enough for me. I don't care what the article says.
24
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I do not want to seat in a chair from a zionist, but I want their gelt to buy the chair ”
Here is another suggestion, get the"zionist gelt" and buy an education so you can learn how to spell and use the proper grammer.
25
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM Anonymous Says:
long live sender schwartz, a great american
26
Nov 19, 2009 at 09:29 AM 5T residant Says:
this is our cause.......we must raise more money for them.....are you with me?
27
Nov 19, 2009 at 10:58 AM Anonymous Says:
I would pay $10 a page for Larry's work.
28
Nov 19, 2009 at 09:26 AM Anonymous Says:
They won't sit in a Zionist's chair but they'll take a Zionist's money?
29
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:04 AM DizzyIzzy Says:
“ this is our cause.......we must raise more money for them.....are you with me? ”
"5T residant Say"
Sure. Just as soon as you name the Five Towns' four main East-West thoroughfares.
30
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:10 AM Anonymous Says:
A great issue was raised "why if they don't believe in Zionism why do they live in E"Y? If they truly believe in galus, why not truly be in galus?
Secondly, my husband went to the tish (tent). He said it was crowded with his own Chasidim and not many of the neighborhood men. In addition he went Motzei Shabbos and came back with the same report. The neighborhood was flooded with chassidic guests who were came along with the Rebbe, but there weren't that many neighborhood members who participated. In addition that particular shabbos was also that WE were hosting IDF soldiers. The Chassidic group did not offer them a warm welcome into the festivities. Rabbi Weinberger personally escorted a group of soldiers into the tent and invited them to sit down but they were uncomfortable only at that point did the Rebbe insist that they join him.
KEEP in mind. THESE YOUNG MEN, protect him,his family and his entire kehilah!
They should be shown the utmost hakaros hatov!
31
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:09 AM 5TJT Ad sales Says:
“ I would pay $10 a page for Larry's work. ”
Make it $11 and you got a deal. Call me around 1 pm at 516-984-0079 or email ads@5TJT.com
32
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:09 AM FVNMS Says:
“ After all they made a terible "Chillul Hashem". They made a discusting look om chariedim. If they do know how to play the show of "Chanufa" why didn't they do it till now. ”
The only people who "made a discusting look on chareidim" are:
* People who riot in the street FOR ANY REASON
* Men who beat up women/girl for:
1. Not dressing how they would have liked them to
2. Sitting on the "wrong" spot on a bus
* Those who engage in sect warfare
* Those who embrace derech-chibbah that cockroach in Teheran
* Those who march with Hamas
* Those who cast aspersions on the religiosity of those who are sickened by all of the above
33
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:14 AM ish chusid hoyoh Says:
“ Both Satmar Rebbes ”
I am in no way defending "Neturei Karta", I also think they are a group of meshugoyim, but that's all I think they are, and I think there are much worse aveiros out there. In addition the fact is that most Satmar chasidim I know would still rather be meshadech with NK than with some other groups.
34
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:31 AM Anonymous Says:
“ A great issue was raised "why if they don't believe in Zionism why do they live in E"Y? If they truly believe in galus, why not truly be in galus?
Secondly, my husband went to the tish (tent). He said it was crowded with his own Chasidim and not many of the neighborhood men. In addition he went Motzei Shabbos and came back with the same report. The neighborhood was flooded with chassidic guests who were came along with the Rebbe, but there weren't that many neighborhood members who participated. In addition that particular shabbos was also that WE were hosting IDF soldiers. The Chassidic group did not offer them a warm welcome into the festivities. Rabbi Weinberger personally escorted a group of soldiers into the tent and invited them to sit down but they were uncomfortable only at that point did the Rebbe insist that they join him.
KEEP in mind. THESE YOUNG MEN, protect him,his family and his entire kehilah!
They should be shown the utmost hakaros hatov! ”
they are the ones who put klal Yisroel into danger. If we were humble like Yaakov Avinu and Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai we wouldn't be in this mess. Remember, we used to get along well with the Arabs before Hertzel. Even Rav YB Soloveitchik ztl wrote this!
35
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Both Satmar Rebbes ”
i only saw the kol korei signed by R' Zalman Leib (which is strange because the Bnei Yoel who are together with NK have "Ahavah Mesuteres" for Rebbe Zalman). I don't think Rebbe Aharon ever wrote anything about them, but he really doesn't have to because NK hate him more than anyone.
36
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:31 AM Honestly Frum Says:
The question needs to be asked that if the rebbe is so principled that he would not take money from a woman who was mechalel shabbos how can he take money from a Zionistic community if we are, in fact, the worst thing to happen to the Jewish people ever?
Mr. Gordon, you and those who welcomed this rebbe with open arms and so freely gave him money have been played for fools. You can call these people extremists and propaganda artists but they are the rebbe's followers telling you exactly how they and their rebbe feel. Perhaps next time a rabid anti Zionist comes to town to pick your pocket you will not be so quick to look important by painting him and his followers as Zionistic lovers of Israel whose values are so closely aligned with those of your community.
37
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:53 AM Anonymous Says:
dude, chill out. the rebbe is not a zionist. neither are tons of other chassidishe gedolim. get over it.
38
Nov 19, 2009 at 12:19 PM anon Says:
The connection between Toldos Aron and Neturei Karta can't be any more clearer.
39
Nov 19, 2009 at 01:58 PM Anonymous Says:
was this interview recorded n any way?. I sure hope it was
40
Nov 19, 2009 at 01:44 PM AZ YID Says:
“ A great issue was raised "why if they don't believe in Zionism why do they live in E"Y? If they truly believe in galus, why not truly be in galus?
Secondly, my husband went to the tish (tent). He said it was crowded with his own Chasidim and not many of the neighborhood men. In addition he went Motzei Shabbos and came back with the same report. The neighborhood was flooded with chassidic guests who were came along with the Rebbe, but there weren't that many neighborhood members who participated. In addition that particular shabbos was also that WE were hosting IDF soldiers. The Chassidic group did not offer them a warm welcome into the festivities. Rabbi Weinberger personally escorted a group of soldiers into the tent and invited them to sit down but they were uncomfortable only at that point did the Rebbe insist that they join him.
KEEP in mind. THESE YOUNG MEN, protect him,his family and his entire kehilah!
They should be shown the utmost hakaros hatov! ”
"why if they don't believe in Zionism why do they live in E"Y? If they truly believe in galus, why not truly be in galus?"
I infer from your question that one will no longer be in Galus if they live in the state. This is precisely the type of Zionist teachings which the Toldos Avraham Yitzak Rebbe and many other great Gadolim ( Chofetz Chaim, Rav Shach ZT’l, Rav Teitelbaum ZT’L, Rav Agidor Miller ZT’l, The 5th and 6th Lubavitcher Rebbes, to name a few ) were opposed to! I recommend you reading some of their teachings before making such statements again. Most AntiZionist Jews are NOT NK crackpots who meet with our enemies.
What we believe is that the state is not the end of Galus! Ones geographic location doesn’t define Galus, if this were the case then one can say the remaining Jews in Beirut Lebanon are not in Galus since they are in the land of E'Y, while under a foreign nation state. We antizionist Jews are NOT opposed to living in the Land of our forefathers (and most AntiZionist Jews in the state of Israel lived in the state before the formation of the state) but we are opposed to any Jewish state existing in Eretz Hakodesh before HKBH sends us Messiach.
The existence of a state we believe hinders the Jewish people’s ability to achieve the spiritual redemption for which we have been/are waiting for since we were sent into exile because of our sins against HKBH. The Zionist notion contradicts our hope and yearning that G-d himself will not bring about our Redemption.
Furthermore since its inception we believe it has rekindled and currently stirs the flames of AntiSemitism. Hence the 1 Million Jews who were kicked out of Arab lands after having lived there for thousands of years. And subsequently, jeopardizing the safety of Jews in the state ( Only Jewish community in the world threatened with inhalation ) and outside, like the Jews of Iran who face blowback from any preemptive strike. I hope this brief overview of some of our positions clarifies things for you and others who seem to misunderstand what AntiZionism means to us. I recommend reading up more on the subject or speaking with an AntiZionist Jew.
41
Nov 19, 2009 at 01:36 PM a Yiddele Says:
“ Natruna is NOT NK and neither is the group " Jews Against Zionism" . Both are affiliated primarily with Satar Chassidim. ”
But Neturi Karta ALSO affiliate themselves with Satmer & The Satmer Rebbe!
42
Nov 19, 2009 at 01:36 PM a Yiddele Says:
“ Natruna is NOT NK and neither is the group " Jews Against Zionism" . Both are affiliated primarily with Satar Chassidim. ”
But Neturi Karta ALSO affiliate themselves with Satmer & The Satmer Rebbe!
43
Nov 19, 2009 at 12:39 PM bob Says:
“ A great issue was raised "why if they don't believe in Zionism why do they live in E"Y? If they truly believe in galus, why not truly be in galus?
Secondly, my husband went to the tish (tent). He said it was crowded with his own Chasidim and not many of the neighborhood men. In addition he went Motzei Shabbos and came back with the same report. The neighborhood was flooded with chassidic guests who were came along with the Rebbe, but there weren't that many neighborhood members who participated. In addition that particular shabbos was also that WE were hosting IDF soldiers. The Chassidic group did not offer them a warm welcome into the festivities. Rabbi Weinberger personally escorted a group of soldiers into the tent and invited them to sit down but they were uncomfortable only at that point did the Rebbe insist that they join him.
KEEP in mind. THESE YOUNG MEN, protect him,his family and his entire kehilah!
They should be shown the utmost hakaros hatov! ”
they r anti the concept of us having our own government in EY but they love the LAND just like every other jew and have no problem living there as they did for hundreds of years before the zionists were around
44
Nov 19, 2009 at 03:21 PM Anonymous Says:
It is historically recorded that there arab attacks on Jews in Eretz Yisrael in the 1800s so the establishment of the medina was not the instigation. The alliance of the arabs w/ hitler ym"s was before 1948.
The reality is that the medina is not an independent, sovereign entity. The State's borders are subject to the interference of the UN, the US and practically every country on the planet. Economically, the country is not self-sufficient and has to receive billions in American aid and which forces the gov't to bend to American wishes. There are arabs in the government! That in itself demonstrates that the current State is NOT a sovereign Jewish nation that would be in violation of the issurim that are the foundation of the anti-zionist position.
45
Nov 19, 2009 at 04:09 PM not a zionist Says:
actually zionism was strongly opposed when it first began. jews were able to emigrate to "palestine" for around 1000 years before the creation of israel, but didnt, not because arabs would kill them (many jews did emigrate while palestine was under ottoman control) but because jews knew they would return when moshiach comes to bring us. early zionism was socialist secular movement and most european rabbis oppossed zionism. however, the bankers hijacked zionism and turned it into judaism miliartistic. now religious jews adopted zionism after the 6 day war. NK is actually an old movement.
even the ayatollah is smart enough to know that judaism and zionism are not the same.
46
Nov 19, 2009 at 04:48 PM 5T residant Says:
Dizzy Izzee...
there is no border to the piples of the 5T.....laurence is the best and most wealthy.
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Nov 19, 2009 at 08:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ lets not forget this holy man did not take el al airlines [dont be mafarness the zionist]and was stopped by customs. hurt them where it hurts ,in their pockets.Dumb americans feeding these low lifes ”
You are also wrong . Before making staements check your facts. The Rebbe did in fact take El Al. He was detained upon his arrival By Homeland Security because a phone call was made to them that he is carrying large amounts of cash into the US, which is forbidden by US law. This was also an act of revange upon the Rebbe by his detractors.
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Nov 19, 2009 at 08:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ A great issue was raised "why if they don't believe in Zionism why do they live in E"Y? If they truly believe in galus, why not truly be in galus?
Secondly, my husband went to the tish (tent). He said it was crowded with his own Chasidim and not many of the neighborhood men. In addition he went Motzei Shabbos and came back with the same report. The neighborhood was flooded with chassidic guests who were came along with the Rebbe, but there weren't that many neighborhood members who participated. In addition that particular shabbos was also that WE were hosting IDF soldiers. The Chassidic group did not offer them a warm welcome into the festivities. Rabbi Weinberger personally escorted a group of soldiers into the tent and invited them to sit down but they were uncomfortable only at that point did the Rebbe insist that they join him.
KEEP in mind. THESE YOUNG MEN, protect him,his family and his entire kehilah!
They should be shown the utmost hakaros hatov! ”
Also wrong. The soldiers were told they would be welcome in the tent. When the Rebbe noticed them sitting , the Rebbe told his Gabbaim to invite them to stand on the head table behind him, which they did.
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Nov 19, 2009 at 07:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ was this interview recorded n any way?. I sure hope it was ”
there was no interview to record!! the Rebbe Shlit"a never spoke!!
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Nov 19, 2009 at 07:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Sender Schwartz is a man of great integrity. If he supports the rebbe that is enough for me. I don't care what the article says. ”
RebSender did a great job looking after the Rebbe Shlit"a and all the members of the Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok from all over the world have tremendous hakoras hatov to him for the time and effort he has put in for the Rebbe & the Mosdos!! Thank you Reb Sender, may you only have simcha and nachas.
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Nov 19, 2009 at 07:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I do not want to seat in a chair from a zionist, but I want their gelt to buy the chair ”
just to clarify the Rebbe Shlit"a has never and will never take a penny from the israeli goverment. That is a fact!!
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Nov 19, 2009 at 07:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "why if they don't believe in Zionism why do they live in E"Y? If they truly believe in galus, why not truly be in galus?"
I infer from your question that one will no longer be in Galus if they live in the state. This is precisely the type of Zionist teachings which the Toldos Avraham Yitzak Rebbe and many other great Gadolim ( Chofetz Chaim, Rav Shach ZT’l, Rav Teitelbaum ZT’L, Rav Agidor Miller ZT’l, The 5th and 6th Lubavitcher Rebbes, to name a few ) were opposed to! I recommend you reading some of their teachings before making such statements again. Most AntiZionist Jews are NOT NK crackpots who meet with our enemies.
What we believe is that the state is not the end of Galus! Ones geographic location doesn’t define Galus, if this were the case then one can say the remaining Jews in Beirut Lebanon are not in Galus since they are in the land of E'Y, while under a foreign nation state. We antizionist Jews are NOT opposed to living in the Land of our forefathers (and most AntiZionist Jews in the state of Israel lived in the state before the formation of the state) but we are opposed to any Jewish state existing in Eretz Hakodesh before HKBH sends us Messiach.
The existence of a state we believe hinders the Jewish people’s ability to achieve the spiritual redemption for which we have been/are waiting for since we were sent into exile because of our sins against HKBH. The Zionist notion contradicts our hope and yearning that G-d himself will not bring about our Redemption.
Furthermore since its inception we believe it has rekindled and currently stirs the flames of AntiSemitism. Hence the 1 Million Jews who were kicked out of Arab lands after having lived there for thousands of years. And subsequently, jeopardizing the safety of Jews in the state ( Only Jewish community in the world threatened with inhalation ) and outside, like the Jews of Iran who face blowback from any preemptive strike. I hope this brief overview of some of our positions clarifies things for you and others who seem to misunderstand what AntiZionism means to us. I recommend reading up more on the subject or speaking with an AntiZionist Jew.
”
Seriously now, if the State did not belong to the Jews, do you think any of these rabbonim and chassidim would be alive or allowed to live there? Please step into the real world. The only reason they are living there or allowed to do what they do and have the freedom to do it is because Israel is a Jewish state governed by Zionists and their rights are protected by these Zionists and their lives are protected by these soldiers datiim and chilonim! They would not and WE would not be able to step foot into the land of our forefathers and every holy site would be destroyed and desecrated. So PLEASE, get real. At the time when jews and arabs lived in peace together was when we were both oppressed by British rule and we didn't have islamic fundamentalist jihad suicide bombers and terrorists who raised children with the propaganda they do today and who proclaim that death is honorable.
There used to be wise old muslem leaders who worked closely with wise old Jewish leaders for the benefit of their people, not all of course but some. That no longer exists. People have no value any longer in the arab population and everything is about power and money, people are just pawns used.
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Nov 19, 2009 at 09:39 PM DizzyIzzy Says:
“ just to clarify the Rebbe Shlit"a has never and will never take a penny from the israeli goverment. That is a fact!! ”
Is that a fact? Then please clarify where the Rebbe Shlit"a gets his water and electricity from? Does he have his own sewer pipes? Does he food grown by Israeli citizens, much of which is subsidized by the Israeli government? What about if there's a fire (G-d forbid) in his home? Does he have his own Charedi fire department, or will he call the municipal firefighters (paid for by Guess Who)? I guess he's never had to take a bus anywhere, otherwise he's been a direct beneficiary of filthy Zionist money (if the government didn't subsidize Egged, you can be sure bus fare would cost considerably more than a few shekel). Should I go on, or a you going to reevaluate your misplaced awe of someone who deserves none of it.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 03:20 AM moderate zealot Says:
“ The question needs to be asked that if the rebbe is so principled that he would not take money from a woman who was mechalel shabbos how can he take money from a Zionistic community if we are, in fact, the worst thing to happen to the Jewish people ever?
Mr. Gordon, you and those who welcomed this rebbe with open arms and so freely gave him money have been played for fools. You can call these people extremists and propaganda artists but they are the rebbe's followers telling you exactly how they and their rebbe feel. Perhaps next time a rabid anti Zionist comes to town to pick your pocket you will not be so quick to look important by painting him and his followers as Zionistic lovers of Israel whose values are so closely aligned with those of your community. ”
You should change your name because someone who is honestly frum does not look for reasons to criticize other Jews, contrary to the Torah dictums of: "li'oilom havay don kol odom likav zchus"; "al tadin es chavercha ad shtagiya limkomo"; vi'ahavta lirayacha kimocho, etc.
To address your question, The Rebbe is very consistent. If a woman is mechalel Shabbos and has a business that is open on Shabbos, the money she earns violating the Shabbos is tainted with Chillul Shabbos. If person is a dentist or CPA and deals honestly with his clients, his money is not tainted by Torah violation. If he happens to be Zionist, an athiest, or a Goy, it's not reflected in his money. (Keep in mind the bais hamikdash excepted sacrifices from Gentiles.) The article is a tribute to the Rebbe's honesty. You think he's not coming to Lawrence next year or that he's hoping peopel will forget by then? He's stated clearly he's anti-zionist, let the chips fall as they may. I also don't believe the Rebbe speaks English, I'm certain he doesn't converse in "Ivrit moderni". How's your Yiddish Mr. Gordon? It seems logical to me if they conversed in English, the Rebbitzen probably spoke.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 03:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Seriously now, if the State did not belong to the Jews, do you think any of these rabbonim and chassidim would be alive or allowed to live there? Please step into the real world. The only reason they are living there or allowed to do what they do and have the freedom to do it is because Israel is a Jewish state governed by Zionists and their rights are protected by these Zionists and their lives are protected by these soldiers datiim and chilonim! They would not and WE would not be able to step foot into the land of our forefathers and every holy site would be destroyed and desecrated. So PLEASE, get real. At the time when jews and arabs lived in peace together was when we were both oppressed by British rule and we didn't have islamic fundamentalist jihad suicide bombers and terrorists who raised children with the propaganda they do today and who proclaim that death is honorable.
There used to be wise old muslem leaders who worked closely with wise old Jewish leaders for the benefit of their people, not all of course but some. That no longer exists. People have no value any longer in the arab population and everything is about power and money, people are just pawns used. ”
Thank you for telling me that G-d had nothing to do with it and it was purely "Kochi vi'oitzem yodi asu li es hachail hazeh." Modern orthodox Zionism, Judaism without G-d, Kefirah in it's most refined form. I had previously pledged money after the channel ten interview and B"H fufilled my pledge when the Rebbe was in Monsey a few weeks ago. B"N I hope to give the Rebbe again, the next time I see him.
56
Nov 20, 2009 at 02:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ They won't sit in a Zionist's chair but they'll take a Zionist's money? ”
“ They won't sit in a Zionist's chair but they'll take a Zionist's money?"
It could be the only zchus the zionist have.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 12:13 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Is that a fact? Then please clarify where the Rebbe Shlit"a gets his water and electricity from? Does he have his own sewer pipes? Does he food grown by Israeli citizens, much of which is subsidized by the Israeli government? What about if there's a fire (G-d forbid) in his home? Does he have his own Charedi fire department, or will he call the municipal firefighters (paid for by Guess Who)? I guess he's never had to take a bus anywhere, otherwise he's been a direct beneficiary of filthy Zionist money (if the government didn't subsidize Egged, you can be sure bus fare would cost considerably more than a few shekel). Should I go on, or a you going to reevaluate your misplaced awe of someone who deserves none of it. ”
The whole situation needs some clarification, especially to all those who are saying all these negative things about the Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok Rebbe. Firstly the Rebbe was educated in the Viznitz Yeshivas considered in the Chasidishe world among the most respected Chasidishe movements. The Rebbe consideres himself a Viznitzer Chasid and follows all their Minhagim. One of the most important things thought in the Viznitzer world is to be an Ohev Yisroel. This the Rebbe certainly is.
Second, the Rebbe is very close to Reb Aliashuv, a Posek Hador, and by no means considered a Chasid, but more A Litvishe. All Shayles the Rebbe has , he goes to Reb Aliashuv for a Psak. Reb Alyashuv has stateted to respected Rabanim in the US that The Rebbe as well as his brother are great Talmiday Chachamim and should be given all the financial help available to help their Mosdos. When Reb Alyashuv visited the Rebbe and was escorted outside by the Rebbe onto the street after their meeting they were stoned and the Rebbe was yelled at and called a Linke. Its ironic therefore that in the US they call him an extremist rightist.
Third, what right does anyone have to be Mevaza a Rebbe Berabim?
58
Nov 20, 2009 at 12:00 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You are also wrong . Before making staements check your facts. The Rebbe did in fact take El Al. He was detained upon his arrival By Homeland Security because a phone call was made to them that he is carrying large amounts of cash into the US, which is forbidden by US law. This was also an act of revange upon the Rebbe by his detractors. ”
Of course he flys El Al. He's a typical hypocrite – he’s only an anti-Zionist when it suits him. I guess every shnorrer has his price.
59
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:53 PM lmaan hashalom Says:
we can resolve this easily- Mr Gordon has the tape from the interview- why not post it online- or perhaps- have 3 rabbonim listen to it and we will know what the Rebbe did or did not say. this way we dont need to make false attacks based on rumors
60
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:48 PM Anonymous Says:
I dont understand why it is an avayra to be against the point of a mdina in its current form. Lets face it, the medina is not being run in a torahdik way. They are mattir avayros etc. So lets stop thinking that these people are wonderful and getting a one way ticket to gan eden when they die. granted they are getting zchusim for living in the EY area just like Eysov did.
On the flip side, we DO daven for EY, TZION, and Yerushalayim many many times a day. The problem is that the concept of "tzion" was hijacked by the non-frum who felt it better to eat chazer and preform abortions in EY as long as you love the land -- QUITE KRUM!
61
Nov 19, 2009 at 11:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Is that a fact? Then please clarify where the Rebbe Shlit"a gets his water and electricity from? Does he have his own sewer pipes? Does he food grown by Israeli citizens, much of which is subsidized by the Israeli government? What about if there's a fire (G-d forbid) in his home? Does he have his own Charedi fire department, or will he call the municipal firefighters (paid for by Guess Who)? I guess he's never had to take a bus anywhere, otherwise he's been a direct beneficiary of filthy Zionist money (if the government didn't subsidize Egged, you can be sure bus fare would cost considerably more than a few shekel). Should I go on, or a you going to reevaluate your misplaced awe of someone who deserves none of it. ”
Lets understand exactly what happens to the money any of the Mosdos in Israel collect in the US. That maney is taken back to Israel every penny of it goes into the Israeli economy, so in some way they are really helping the economy in Israel by spending their money there which automatically is infused into the oconomy and thereby helps the State of Israel whether they like it or not. These are the facts!
62
Nov 20, 2009 at 10:43 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You should change your name because someone who is honestly frum does not look for reasons to criticize other Jews, contrary to the Torah dictums of: "li'oilom havay don kol odom likav zchus"; "al tadin es chavercha ad shtagiya limkomo"; vi'ahavta lirayacha kimocho, etc.
To address your question, The Rebbe is very consistent. If a woman is mechalel Shabbos and has a business that is open on Shabbos, the money she earns violating the Shabbos is tainted with Chillul Shabbos. If person is a dentist or CPA and deals honestly with his clients, his money is not tainted by Torah violation. If he happens to be Zionist, an athiest, or a Goy, it's not reflected in his money. (Keep in mind the bais hamikdash excepted sacrifices from Gentiles.) The article is a tribute to the Rebbe's honesty. You think he's not coming to Lawrence next year or that he's hoping peopel will forget by then? He's stated clearly he's anti-zionist, let the chips fall as they may. I also don't believe the Rebbe speaks English, I'm certain he doesn't converse in "Ivrit moderni". How's your Yiddish Mr. Gordon? It seems logical to me if they conversed in English, the Rebbitzen probably spoke. ”
What if this honest dentist or CPA deals honestly with his clients when he does their taxes or works on their teeth on Shabbos. Would the rebbe take money from an exceedingly honest, Shomer Shabbos pornographer?
Mr. Gordon's father was a reporter for the Forward when it was written in Yiddish. It's pretty likely that Mr. Gordon speaks Yiddish better than the rebbe.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 10:37 AM Anonymous Says:
“ actually zionism was strongly opposed when it first began. jews were able to emigrate to "palestine" for around 1000 years before the creation of israel, but didnt, not because arabs would kill them (many jews did emigrate while palestine was under ottoman control) but because jews knew they would return when moshiach comes to bring us. early zionism was socialist secular movement and most european rabbis oppossed zionism. however, the bankers hijacked zionism and turned it into judaism miliartistic. now religious jews adopted zionism after the 6 day war. NK is actually an old movement.
even the ayatollah is smart enough to know that judaism and zionism are not the same. ”
"now religious jews adopted zionism after the 6 day war. NK is actually an old movement. "
This statement is 100% false. My grandmother (along with many of her friends) collected $$$ for JNF and Hadassah in the 1930s. I assure you her frumkeit far exceeded your standards.
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Nov 20, 2009 at 01:58 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Lets understand exactly what happens to the money any of the Mosdos in Israel collect in the US. That maney is taken back to Israel every penny of it goes into the Israeli economy, so in some way they are really helping the economy in Israel by spending their money there which automatically is infused into the oconomy and thereby helps the State of Israel whether they like it or not. These are the facts! ”
This is correct. The Mosdos and Rebbes should be applauded for helping the Israeli economy, by taking money to Israel , money which will be spent and helping merchants, money which otherwise may not make to Israel but rather stay here in the US and other parts of the world where the Mosdos and Rebbes make viists to raise funds.! I am quite sure that any person making a donation to a Mosod in Israel will not diminish his contribution to his local Mosdos because of what he gave to the Israeli or any other Mosod. I also know that the people making these arguments and shouting the loudest are the ones who dont give, or give the least amounts of money!
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Nov 20, 2009 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Of course he flys El Al. He's a typical hypocrite – he’s only an anti-Zionist when it suits him. I guess every shnorrer has his price. ”
The Rebbe flies El Al as any norman passenger does. It has nothing to do with suiting him or not suiting him. As for your other comment calling the Rebbe names shows who and what you are. It is not worthy of any further comment! What is you price? I guess the enjoyment of what you are doing!
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Nov 20, 2009 at 03:02 PM Rangers Goalie Says:
Why is everyone forgetting the fact that when you go to this Rebbe or any other godal and give a donation, that Rebbe/Godol is going to give you a brocha. Yes even a 5 townman is receiving Shefa and Bracha from him, even if he-the Rebbe-doesn't sing the h'tikva. So what?
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Nov 24, 2009 at 06:44 PM Teshuvah Says:
“ Of course he flys El Al. He's a typical hypocrite – he’s only an anti-Zionist when it suits him. I guess every shnorrer has his price. ”
He may be a hypocrite but you are going to have a horrible life for starting up with him, if i were you i would get on the first plane (elal or any other airline) and go to Eretz yisroel and beg him for mechilo!! Your life is not going to be worth living. People who start up with Yidden like him have only regretted it!! Get in there before it is too late my friend!! Calling him name proves you’re a frustrated person. Wake up to reality