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New York - Chabad’s Lost Messiah

Published on: November 19, 2009 08:51 AM
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Jewish volunteers stand around a portrait of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, amidst the ruined Beit Chabad in Mumbai. The Picture of the Rebbe unscathed in attackJewish volunteers stand around a portrait of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, amidst the ruined Beit Chabad in Mumbai. The Picture of the Rebbe unscathed in attack

New York - For several terrifying days in late November 2008, all Jewish eyes were on the Indian city of Mumbai. Muslim terrorists had launched a series of coordinated shooting and bombing attacks on targets throughout the metropolis, including the Nariman Chabad House, a hasidic cultural center that served the local Jewish community as well as Israeli tourists passing through. For two days, terrorists held those inside hostage; on the third, Indian security forces stormed the building. There they found the bodies of six captives, including the young Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, Rivka, then six months pregnant. Only the Holtzbergs’ two-year-old son, Moshe, survived, having been spirited away by his Indian caretaker at the onset of the attack. Later, he was returned safely to his family in Israel.

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Amidst their grief, the followers of Chabad found one additional source of comfort—or at least of awe—in the Mumbai tragedy, however: Though the Nariman House and its contents had been severely damaged, an oil painting of the late Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe and the last leader of Chabad, had survived unharmed. To many of his followers, this was nothing less than proof of the miraculous aura surrounding their deceased leader.

Referred to by his acolytes simply as “the Rebbe,” Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994) continues to excite the passions of Lubavitchers even today, a decade and a half after his death—a testament to his personal stature as well as his profound impact on the Chabad movement. Under his charismatic leadership, Chabad was transformed within a few short decades from a small hasidic sect into a thriving global network of schools, community centers, synagogues, and charities.

Even those who do not avail themselves of Chabad’s services have like as not encountered, at one time or another, one of the movement’s followers manning a street-corner stand, offering tefillin (phylacteries), prayer books, and tutelage for Jews curious about ritual observance. Nor are Chabad’s activities limited strictly to members of the Jewish faith: In accordance with the Rebbe’s instructions, Lubavitchers have also assumed responsibility for convincing non-Jews to follow the Noahide Laws, a set of seven moral imperatives the Talmud claims are binding on all mankind. Owing to this fervent activism, Chabad is now the most widespread and vibrant Jewish organization in the world; in some countries, such as France, Australia, and almost all of the former Soviet republics, Chabad has effectively become Judaism’s public face.

To be sure, such impressive achievements required a powerful motivating force. For Chabad, this force was a messianic awakening the likes of which Judaism had not experienced since the brief rise and fall of the seventeenth-century false messiah, Shabtai Tzvi, and at its center stood Menachem Mendel Schneerson himself. As the Rebbe’s fame increased in the decades since the 1950s, and his movement grew in power and influence, so, too, did the messianic expectations surrounding him become more and more zealous, ultimately overwhelming both Chabad’s rank and file and its rabbinical leadership alike. This cult of personality profoundly altered the movement, both institutionally and theologically. Indeed, since the Rebbe’s death in 1994, no one has been deemed worthy of succeeding him. Moreover, the movement has found itself split between those who have accepted its leader’s death and those—the majority of Chabad’s followers—who believe he is somehow still alive.

No less worrisome than this internal schism, the Lubavitchers have found themselves increasingly at odds with other ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities. Although Chabad members follow the commandments to the letter, often adding their own, more onerous restrictions, their critics have gone so far as to cast doubt on the movement’s Jewishness. The head of the Lithuanian Jewish community, the late Rabbi Eliezer Shach, once called Chabad a “cult” and sarcastically defined it as the religion closest to Judaism;3 Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual leader of the Sephardi Shas movement, ruled that a certain statement by the Lubavitcher Rebbe was “true heresy” and “idolatry.”4 And in a recent book titled The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference, historian and Orthodox rabbi David Berger demonstrates that one faction of Chabad no longer presents the Rebbe as “only” the messiah, but instead goes so far as to identify him with God himself—cause, argues Berger, for the movement’s excommunication from Judaism.5 For their part, Chabad members respond to such criticisms with either anger or derision: They describe Berger as a crackpot, scorn the opinions of Ovadia Yosef, and insist that Eliezer Shach was the Devil’s representative on earth.

In light of the uproar surrounding the “aberration” of the Chabad movement, one cannot but wonder: Did the Rebbe in truth believe he was the messiah?7 The messianic faction of the movement naturally insists that he did. The moderates, however, have largely succeeded in convincing the general public that the Rebbe never presented himself as such. At most, they assert, he neither confirmed nor denied such claims. Rather, the messianic fervor that engulfed the movement was “from below”—i.e., at the instigation of his followers.

Yet such apologetics simply do not mesh with the facts. As I will show, the Rebbe did believe—and encouraged his followers to believe—that he was the messiah, destined to reveal himself to the people Israel and redeem the world. In fact, he could hardly have thought otherwise: This perception was an inevitable result of the messianic theology the Rebbe inherited from his predecessors, a theology whose internal logic was reflected in his teachings and which guided both his decisions and actions. The current messianic tension that grips Chabad is therefore not a side effect of its achievements under the Rebbe’s leadership. Just the opposite is true: Messianism was the driving force behind Chabad’s success, and it has only grown stronger after the death of the supposed savior himself.

Tomer Persico is a researcher in the field of religious studies.
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1

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:13 AM R Tuvia Says:


Sandra's parents must have instilled her with beautiful values, to love and care and worry, about the well being of every human being, regardless of their ethnicity, family, or nationality.

Great lesson to us. This is the way we should be Mechanech our children. They should worry and sincerely care for the well being, wealth, and health of every human being, whether it's a Yid or a Non-Yid.

Then HKB"H, who showed so much Rachmonus on the people of Ninveh, who were Goyim, will reward us with Sholom and Nachas.

2

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:13 AM shmuel Says:

there is not one piece of true fact in this story!

truly mind boggeling

3

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:09 AM Ari Davis Says:

The majority of Chabad chasidim that I know, (numbering in the hundreds), are regular, ehrliche yidden who do not believe the rebbe is still alive.

While I do not have the plaitzos to throw my opinion around on such weighty matters, I do not believe the author of this article is qualified either. The machloksim between Maran Harav shach and the Rebbe was a machlokes of Gedolim, and we are not their baalei plugta.
If you research, R Yaakov Emden and R Yonason Eybshutz had similar arguments, even using the term apikorsus etc., yet I do not think we would think of weighing in.
As my Rebbe, R Laib Bakst, told me, we lost so many yidden in the holocaust, and of the survivors 99% dont recognise Hashem, are we really going to pick and choose who is a "good Jew" and who is not?! Our time and energy can be spent far better.

4

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:04 AM Anonymous Says:

i guess Tomer Persico is the new mavin on Mashiach......i thought we outgrew this one long ago.

5

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:05 AM Misnaged Says:

Reply to #3  
Ari Davis Says:

The majority of Chabad chasidim that I know, (numbering in the hundreds), are regular, ehrliche yidden who do not believe the rebbe is still alive.

While I do not have the plaitzos to throw my opinion around on such weighty matters, I do not believe the author of this article is qualified either. The machloksim between Maran Harav shach and the Rebbe was a machlokes of Gedolim, and we are not their baalei plugta.
If you research, R Yaakov Emden and R Yonason Eybshutz had similar arguments, even using the term apikorsus etc., yet I do not think we would think of weighing in.
As my Rebbe, R Laib Bakst, told me, we lost so many yidden in the holocaust, and of the survivors 99% dont recognise Hashem, are we really going to pick and choose who is a "good Jew" and who is not?! Our time and energy can be spent far better.

When R' Shach says what he says at a public gathering, he means for you to believe that. A machlokes between gedolim usually stays between gedolim. That was not the case here at all.

6

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:

the fact of the mater is...

that a majority are NOT maschistin. and 99 % of maschisting are new so called bal Tesuvash, you dont have to take my word for it, just the next time you see one try talking in yiddish to him or ask him what yeshivah he went to as a child.

or....if even ever saw the Rebbe...most of them have not

7

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Whoever wrote this article is a few years outdated! Very few in Chabad still think that way.

8

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:02 AM Anonymous Says:

What does one have to do with the other? The Shluchim in Mumbai were obviously not Messianic, as evidenced by the reliance of many Satmar etc. chasidim who relied on them, and they had a picture of their Rebbe as a picture of Gadol in their house. This has absolutely nothing to do with the question is the Rebbe the Moshiach, God, etc.!

9

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:56 AM gevald Says:

nebach emes.

10

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:54 AM Anonymous Says:

The article is well written. The author looks at the issue with a clear head. although I'd love to read the article in its entirety, I'm not sure that I'd spend the USD$48.00 just for this. With a wife that "believes" I fully understand many of the points that the author makes.

11

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:19 AM Misnaged Says:

R' Shach hated Chabad since the time that he was dismmised from becoming a Rosh Yeshivah at a Chabad Yeshivah in Israel some 4 and half decades ago! look it up! (Chabad won't tell you this, because they love every Jew!).

12

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:52 AM yossi E Says:

so the rebbi was trying to push hashem to send mosiach [in a tzadiks way something im sure everyone know about like it says were all tzadikim] and what wrong if those people think that their rebbi will or is moshiach at least there doing good things to bring moshiac.and for those who look to talk bad there is alway what to say

13

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:52 AM ABBARBANEL! Says:

While the great Abbarbanel (quoting the Sanhedrin) states that Moshiach may come from the dead, I don't think that this option is what most Jews "imagine" it would be like.
But, the main thing is that he should come! and if it turns out to be the Lubavitzcher Rebbe Zt"l, I am sure that even the biggest Misnagid will be delighted!
so as the Chabadniks say: MOSHIACH NOW!!

14

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:50 AM my humble opinion Says:

The Lubavitch rebbeim encouraged our strive for Moshiach. While they were alive, like other great leaders, they could very well have hoped that they were Moshiach to bring the geula already. No doubt if we were worthy of bias hamoshiach they would be the right candidates.
The previous Lubavitch rebbe was approached by a Chosid who told him 'Men zogt az eer zeit Moshiach" The Rebbe answered "Abi(As long) men kocht een moshiach" I believe their approach was "Let us do anything to bring Moshiach" and encouraged us as well that anything we do is to briing Moshiach closer. I am sure, no doubt, Chabad did their part in bringing Moshiach closer.
As for the Picture being not touched, symbolizes that the Rebbe(as painful as it was) was holding the hands of the shluchim while going through this horrific ordeal (like a father holding down a child screeching at the dentist) May we merit to see the good in this, that Hashem has in store for all of us, amen

15

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:50 AM zahava Says:

What a crock. This article started out beautifully and went rapidly downhill. I am surprised VoisIzNeias published such false, subjective, slanted, garbage. So disappointing.

16

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:47 AM Tome is a self hating Jew Says:

He left Torah and Yidishkeit behind, thinking he will make it as a secular writer.

Shame on him.

His Lithuanian bitterness shines right through.

17

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:46 AM persico Says:

persico is another Maddoff, who wants to gain popularity and make a couple of dollars, bringing just the opposite of a Kiddush Hashem and Ahavas Ysroel

21

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Misnaged Says:

R' Shach hated Chabad since the time that he was dismmised from becoming a Rosh Yeshivah at a Chabad Yeshivah in Israel some 4 and half decades ago! look it up! (Chabad won't tell you this, because they love every Jew!).

Urban legend. Another version is that he wanted a job in a Chabad yeshiva but did not get it. Not provable.

22

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:

This guy has no facts right; example "in a recent book by Berger". for those who dont know this book came out in 2000! - verry recent!!

23

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Misnaged Says:

When R' Shach says what he says at a public gathering, he means for you to believe that. A machlokes between gedolim usually stays between gedolim. That was not the case here at all.

that wasent either the case between the yavetz and reb yonasan eibeshitz. it also wasent the case between the vilna gaon and the chassidishe rebbe's. it starts out quiet...... and then it explodes

24

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:29 AM Misnaged Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

Whoever wrote this article is a few years outdated! Very few in Chabad still think that way.

Really? That hasn't been my experience at all. I wonder what you base this statement on.

25

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately, on the internet, there are certain "unofficial" Chabad sites which continually write things such as "Yechi... long live King Moshiach"..... and this is exactly what brings some people to the conclusion that Chabad lives in a dream world where the Rebbe is still alive. if these Meshichistic sites persist in this, then either chabad must make an official statement, or put up with people thinking that they are all a bissel meshugge.

26

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:31 AM A man who stands up for all Yidden Says:

Having been privileged to have walked with Rav Avigdor Miller zichrono l'veracha I asked him in all seriousness over a decade ago what the situation was with the accusations that certain religious communities were throwing at the Lubavitcher Chassidim and Rebbe at the time. He answered me that any man who speaks against the Lubavitcher Rebbe is playing with fire as he was a complete righteous man.
From this encounter I derived that the chassidim believe what they believe, but in no way does that permit anybody to disqualify them from being Jews or to speak against them.
I personally donot believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach. Although my thoughts are that anybody so wise to publish their thoughts against an entire group of good meaning Yidden is not only not warranted at this stage of Jewish History, but it induces a much more severe sin than believing mistakingly that their Rebbe is Moshiach. That sin is sinnas chinam and lashon Hara. Moshiach will come and when he does, there will be no doubt as to the truth as it will be clear as day. We the Jews have suffered enough. I truly hope Moshiach Tzidkeinu with the heralding of Eliyahu Hanavi will be soon. Amen

27

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:30 AM Anonymous Says:

without getting involved into who believes what etc, the sifrei kodesh in Mumbai were riddled with bullets R"L so lets not get carried away with the fact that nothing happened to the painting

28

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:58 AM Anonymous Says:

First write what lubavitch did for world jewry (a lot more the you I bet) before you start slaming them.

29

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:

The point of the article was to cause Machlokes...lets see if we can rise above the occasion...here.

30

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:16 AM r.e.t Says:

I am a Chabad Rabbi and cannot believe this artice was published anywhere. This is all lies and the fartherst thing from the truth! this is why there is so much Snas chinom.

if you tell a lie so many times ppl will start believing.... this whole story is fabricated in this authors mind and made up. I dont have time to refute all said but its all untrue ans just an attempt to attack etc etc./

31

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Both Meshichists and Misnagdim agree that the Rebbe BELIEVED he was Moshiach. This is clear from his extensive writing and public sermons. Only the people who say it was a machlokes between 2 Gedolim say the chasdim fabricated the whole mashichists thing. Someone's got their head in the sand.

32

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Misnaged Says:

R' Shach hated Chabad since the time that he was dismmised from becoming a Rosh Yeshivah at a Chabad Yeshivah in Israel some 4 and half decades ago! look it up! (Chabad won't tell you this, because they love every Jew!).

and that is what the chabad rebbi was all about LOVE EVERY JEW never spoke hate like others.

33

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
my humble opinion Says:

The Lubavitch rebbeim encouraged our strive for Moshiach. While they were alive, like other great leaders, they could very well have hoped that they were Moshiach to bring the geula already. No doubt if we were worthy of bias hamoshiach they would be the right candidates.
The previous Lubavitch rebbe was approached by a Chosid who told him 'Men zogt az eer zeit Moshiach" The Rebbe answered "Abi(As long) men kocht een moshiach" I believe their approach was "Let us do anything to bring Moshiach" and encouraged us as well that anything we do is to briing Moshiach closer. I am sure, no doubt, Chabad did their part in bringing Moshiach closer.
As for the Picture being not touched, symbolizes that the Rebbe(as painful as it was) was holding the hands of the shluchim while going through this horrific ordeal (like a father holding down a child screeching at the dentist) May we merit to see the good in this, that Hashem has in store for all of us, amen

thats tha problem people dont jump to see the good.

34

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:14 AM brisker Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

the fact of the mater is...

that a majority are NOT maschistin. and 99 % of maschisting are new so called bal Tesuvash, you dont have to take my word for it, just the next time you see one try talking in yiddish to him or ask him what yeshivah he went to as a child.

or....if even ever saw the Rebbe...most of them have not

This is not true at all!! I can argue about this because my brother is part of them and my sister married a chabatzker so I do know a little bit of what's going on there. Its true that its not everyone and not even close to that but :yes it's a part that you could not avoid at all (most of them are actually not bt) so don't try to sweep the issue away as if its not there. Kol tuv mitzrayim !

35

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:40 AM to #21 Says:

It is very provable that R. Schach was rejected after applying for rosh yeshiva @ Chabad in the early 50's.I have spoken to several who were bochurim in Lud and were present when he gave a shiur.

36

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:48 AM get at the truth Says:

The fact is that both bdibur and bksav the Rebbe stated many times that the identity of Moshiach is not yet known either to himself or anyone else and is not vital to know

37

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:43 AM noch a mcharcher riv Says:

If this mcharcher riv thinks he will be ola l'gdula by relying on gdolim as Berger ukdoma ,I've got a bridge on sale.

38

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

Both Meshichists and Misnagdim agree that the Rebbe BELIEVED he was Moshiach. This is clear from his extensive writing and public sermons. Only the people who say it was a machlokes between 2 Gedolim say the chasdim fabricated the whole mashichists thing. Someone's got their head in the sand.

There is no Moshiach until he comes. It's not like he wanders around waiting for Gd to tell him to reveal himself! In every generation there is someone with the potential to be Moshiach and if we, as a nation, do what needs to be done for the era of Moshiach to begin, then Eliyahu Hanavi will come, reveal Moshiach to us and the rest is in the books. The Rebbe did NOT believe he was Moshiach because he wasn't (or isn't yet, whichever way you believe) because Moshiach hasn't yet been revealed. Was he the potential Moshiach of the generation? Tha's for each person to believe on his/her own terms.

39

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:

While many people have philosophical differences and disagreements, schach took it to nasty, personal attacks against the Rebbe. Could it be simple jealousy? Go around and ask who schach is, and then compare to how many people in the world know who the Rebbe is and what he stands for.

Even after his death schach, when mentioned is the source of negative energy (as cited in this article).

One needs to travel to Queens to the Rebbe's ohel and see for themself a constant stream of Yidden and lehavdil nit yidden coming to the Rebbe just like it was before gimel tamuz. Frum and not frum, men and women, poilishe chassidim and chabadniks, sefardim and ashkenazim, etc.

Rebbe's focus was to bring Moshiach sooner for one and only reason - his infinite love of each and every Jew. This love and concern continues on and in that sense the Rebbe is alive!

40

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

without getting involved into who believes what etc, the sifrei kodesh in Mumbai were riddled with bullets R"L so lets not get carried away with the fact that nothing happened to the painting

that's the whole point, genius!

41

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
r.e.t Says:

I am a Chabad Rabbi and cannot believe this artice was published anywhere. This is all lies and the fartherst thing from the truth! this is why there is so much Snas chinom.

if you tell a lie so many times ppl will start believing.... this whole story is fabricated in this authors mind and made up. I dont have time to refute all said but its all untrue ans just an attempt to attack etc etc./

Chabad Rabbi, huh? When was the last time you were in 770 during tefillah in the large room? All lies?

42

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:55 AM lubavitch and proud Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

without getting involved into who believes what etc, the sifrei kodesh in Mumbai were riddled with bullets R"L so lets not get carried away with the fact that nothing happened to the painting

when the vollunteers went on to clean up the nariman chabad house they found that one of the sifrie torah had been pierced by a bullet by the words (not exact wording) hashem watches over

43

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:17 PM chabadnik Says:

Reply to #3  
Ari Davis Says:

The majority of Chabad chasidim that I know, (numbering in the hundreds), are regular, ehrliche yidden who do not believe the rebbe is still alive.

While I do not have the plaitzos to throw my opinion around on such weighty matters, I do not believe the author of this article is qualified either. The machloksim between Maran Harav shach and the Rebbe was a machlokes of Gedolim, and we are not their baalei plugta.
If you research, R Yaakov Emden and R Yonason Eybshutz had similar arguments, even using the term apikorsus etc., yet I do not think we would think of weighing in.
As my Rebbe, R Laib Bakst, told me, we lost so many yidden in the holocaust, and of the survivors 99% dont recognise Hashem, are we really going to pick and choose who is a "good Jew" and who is not?! Our time and energy can be spent far better.

yasharkoach, my dear friend you it the nail on the head. let's focus on ahavas yisroel, torah and mitzvos and bringing moshiach and forget loshon hora and richilus. let's worry about what our holy torah tells us to concern ourselves with.

44

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:26 PM from 21 Says:

Reply to #35  
to #21 Says:

It is very provable that R. Schach was rejected after applying for rosh yeshiva @ Chabad in the early 50's.I have spoken to several who were bochurim in Lud and were present when he gave a shiur.

Listen, I am as Chabad as can be. But I have yet to hear a first hand account of this. It is always someone who spoke to someone etc. It does us no good to spread stories like this. The Rebbe always said that it was ossur for us to respond to sinas chinam, and this story is not mitzad ahavas Yisroel.

45

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:10 PM Anonymous Says:

I for one would rather have the picture mutilated , and the shluchim ( and the others present )alive

46

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Urban legend. Another version is that he wanted a job in a Chabad yeshiva but did not get it. Not provable.

What do you mean "not provable" my rosh yeshivah was astudent at the time and I heard it directly from him I also know afew of his freinds who were there at the time

47

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:03 PM legand? no, fact! Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Urban legend. Another version is that he wanted a job in a Chabad yeshiva but did not get it. Not provable.

I too thought this as maybe a little bit of a legand, so I asked my grandfather who was in lud at that time period. he told me the story like this. they were looking for a rosh yeshiva for the yeshiva and had different people come in, one being the above mentioned person. he gave a shuir to a group of bochurim and one of them (either yisroel friedman, rosh yeshiva in OT in crown heights or another bochur at the time, I cannot recal) asked a question in the gemorah. it was a simple but exelent question and he was not able to answer it and instead of saying....oh that is a good question...he started to attack the question and person who asked the question, as not knowing what they were talking about...he was not hired, as they were not interested in him (i do not know what their exact reasons were).
after telling this story to me, my gramps advised he does not believe that the reason for that persons hating chabad has to do with this story, but has to do with politics later on....

48

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Since when is the belief that your Rebbe is Moshiach contrary to Judaism? The Gemoro in Sanhedrin lists many yeshivos who named their Rebbe as Moshiach. Additionally, the gemoro suggests Doniel as a potential Moshiach though he had already passed away.

49

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Urban legend. Another version is that he wanted a job in a Chabad yeshiva but did not get it. Not provable.

I know the people involved in the story. Its provable beyond the shadow of a doubt. You can call them yourself and ask them what went on.

50

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:00 PM Broussard Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Urban legend. Another version is that he wanted a job in a Chabad yeshiva but did not get it. Not provable.

What a chutzpa of the author to use a horrible tragedy, and one the was unifying, as a divisive means with sinas chinam. This issue has been dealt with many times, many years ago, and most respected rabonim have said that there is no validity to called Chabadniks apikorsim. There is a makor for the opinions in gemora and rishonim. The Rebbe never referred to himself as moshiach, as the author contends.
Why cant we focus on the beautiful siyum Sefer Torah that was just dedicated for all 7 kedoshim, chabad, poilish and otherwise. This will bring moshiach, not focusing on bickering and differences.

51

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:57 PM SimchaB Says:

Reply to #48: But you won't find such a mekor where they named their Rebbi as Moshiach in his lifetime and continued doing so after his passing. That is where the dangerous territory is!

52

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:51 PM Broussard Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Urban legend. Another version is that he wanted a job in a Chabad yeshiva but did not get it. Not provable.

I heard from this mouth of someone who was in yeshiva in Kfar Chabad in 1953 when this happened. In those days someone would come and give a shiur as a tryout for the job. shach gave a shiur and was not hired. Factual story.
Whether or not his venomous sinas chinam was because of this or some other reason is up to debatel.

53

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:17 PM Monsey Balebos Says:

Many of the Lubavitcher posters here claim that this article is baseless,if so why can't any of them put their name to it?
How come Lesches is not heard from?
The answer is in the article! Most of them quietly do believe in the fact that's why you will very seldom see a name posted to protest

54

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:31 PM mishmash lubab Says:

nutty author - nutty article. Most chabadniks are norm - yes 770 downstairs has a loud group and they ain't goin anywhere - lubabvitch doesnt throw out people helllo - most of us just ignore it - trust me they can say yechi from today to tomm everyone just davens does their thing and moves on to the next task..

as for Shach and Berger these are old issues long adressed, debunked or totally discarded as a waste of time. The actions of Chabad and the Shlcuhim speak for themselves. End of story.

55

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:24 PM moicheh bchvod hatorah Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

While many people have philosophical differences and disagreements, schach took it to nasty, personal attacks against the Rebbe. Could it be simple jealousy? Go around and ask who schach is, and then compare to how many people in the world know who the Rebbe is and what he stands for.

Even after his death schach, when mentioned is the source of negative energy (as cited in this article).

One needs to travel to Queens to the Rebbe's ohel and see for themself a constant stream of Yidden and lehavdil nit yidden coming to the Rebbe just like it was before gimel tamuz. Frum and not frum, men and women, poilishe chassidim and chabadniks, sefardim and ashkenazim, etc.

Rebbe's focus was to bring Moshiach sooner for one and only reason - his infinite love of each and every Jew. This love and concern continues on and in that sense the Rebbe is alive!

reading such a comment requires kri'ah and macho'oh on bizoyon hatorah. look who's talking about nasty personal attacks, you sure don't make chabad look any better, I know this filth talk is common in chabad, but at least keep it among yourselves. "negative energy" you definitely help reinforce the perception of chabad having strange ideas.

56

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:36 PM machlokes Says:

Reply to #53  
Monsey Balebos Says:

Many of the Lubavitcher posters here claim that this article is baseless,if so why can't any of them put their name to it?
How come Lesches is not heard from?
The answer is in the article! Most of them quietly do believe in the fact that's why you will very seldom see a name posted to protest

that is bc the average person simply doesnt post their name on a comment similiar to why u didnt

57

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:40 PM Anonymous Says:

The L. Rebbe was the greatest genious of our generation and this is confirmed by the titles he was addressed by the Gedolei & Tsadikei hador. The Rebbe was able to find a Chazal to confirm everything he ever said. Harav Schach, Harav
Misatmar, Harav ov. Joseph etc. found him as a Bar Plugte, important enough but dangerous for Bnei Tora. There are many weak points in Chabad, i.e. PR is copied from the gentiles and the Salvation army. They respect politicians far more than Rabonim.and that corresponds very well with that the Rebbe is the Nosie Hador without a vote by Klal Israel. The Rebbe has to be Moshiach in order to
play the important role also when they know it is wrong and funny.
All this comes from the Rebbes weakness and strong belief that his father in law, the former Rebbe was Nosie hador, Moshiach, Prophet and even Elokus in
Bosor Vedam, active in PR and worried about every Jew This belief in the Rebbe is identical..All these titles, convinced the new American and Sfardim Choizrei Betchuva that have no tradition in chasidus to be attracted to a mew Chasidus that was born in the USA and not in Europe. Lubavitch.of today has no smilarity to Chabad of Russia. .

58

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:40 PM Monsey Balebos Says:

Chevra,
Please let's not get sidetracked by the bobbeh mayses being told by some very biased and bored kids in Oholei Torah.
Let us deal with facts.Indisputable facts.
*770 is run by the Meshichisten, the group that proclaims the Rebbe to be alive and Moshiach.Remember this is Chabad Lubavitchs headquarters.
*The largest Chabad yeshiva in the world is the yeshiva in Tzfas with over 430 boys.It is unabashedly Meshichist,its rosh yeshiva Wilschansky is "shpitz Chabad" and one of the leaders of the Meshichist movement so are the rest of the rebbeim.
*Kfar Chabad magazine is teetering on bankrupcy, was closed down and barely reopened.This is the organ of the non meshichist,HOWEVER,Bais Moshiach mag.organ of the Meshichist is thriving and printing thousands od magazines weekly
*At the hachnosas sefer torah for the kedoshim in Mumbai, a massive operation run by the supposedly non meshichist group last week when thousands of shluchim were here from the whole world, the Rebbe was honored with the first hakofa!!DOES IT SOUND LIKE EVEN THE MAINSTREAM GROUP believes he was nifter?
Think before you answer.

59

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:39 PM 33 over Says:

as a lubavitcher this article disgust's me im sure some points are correct while many are a clear stretch and untrue and for us to be sitting and adding fuel to a fire that should have never been lit is there things that are wrong with every community there is no one that is perfect and as jews we strive to be the best that we possibly can but surely this is not it this is a one sided article while only bringing facts from one side why are we giving a stage to someone who is causing fighting and hatred amongst us jews why dont we keep take our energy and do positive things with it especially considering it is one day after the anniversary of the attacks in Mumbai were jews from different walks of life were murdered we all felt that knife go through our hearts at the time why are we sitting here talking such filth about each other I ASK THAT NO ONE PAY TO SEE THE REST OF THIS ARTICLE AND LET THIS ARTICLE GO TO WASTE WHY SUPPORT AND PUT MONEY IN THE POCKET OF A MAN WHO HAS APPARENTLY LOST HIS WAY AND DOES NOT HAVE THE INTERESTS OF ANY JEWS his only aim is to cause fighting as is evident by the comments that are being made on this article

60

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:34 PM SimchaB Says:

Reply to #48: But you won't find such a mekor where they named their Rebbi as Moshiach in his lifetime and continued doing so after his passing. That is where the dangerous territory is!

61

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:48 PM Not Lubavitch Says:

Get stuck at any airport in America 90 minutes before shabbos and a total stranger will pick you up and bring you home to his family for shabbos and expect NO compensation. You can land in Alabama and they will be there. In spite of their issues, no group of yidden (I'm not referring to individuals) are closer to representing the hachnosas orchim of Avrohom Avinu than Lubavitch. When the tsunami devastated Asia, the Israeli consulate relied on Chabad to communicate with their lost citizens. The Holzbergs hyd had dedicated their lives to supporting a fledgling community of Jews and travelers in a genuine makom avodah zara, providing them with physical and spiritual sustenance. While we consider the difficulties of kollel life in Lakewood, consider living in South Carolina or Mumbai, without a yeshiva, or even a bakery, and having to send your children away to learn before they are teenagers. Who cannot but admire these people? Or the leader who inspired them? The article was nothing but rechilus and as I understand sefer Chofetz Chaim, it is entirely asur to be makabel. #3 was right on the money.

62

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:54 PM ha ha Says:

lubavitchers expect the oilam to believe "first hand" buba maasehs from people who can claim a dead person alive, once you can claim that you can claim anything.

63

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
SimchaB Says:

Reply to #48: But you won't find such a mekor where they named their Rebbi as Moshiach in his lifetime and continued doing so after his passing. That is where the dangerous territory is!

Didn't Rebbe Akiva let everyone know that Bar Kochba is Moshiach?

64

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:17 PM Shua Cohen Says:

Let us not forget what Rabbi Cunin, Director of West Coast Chabad, said on December 10, 2008 (before the fate of the Mumbai kedoshim was known). No one made this up. For those who have not heard it, you can watch the video on YouTube:

"They will understand and see that it's the Rebbe who runs this world 'til he comes to take us out of golus now."

Of course, this statement caused a firestorm of criticism. Rabbi Cunin clearly implies that there is no distinction between the Rebbe and G-d (chas v'shalom) and the Rebbe and Moshiach. The attempt by some Lubavitchers to whitewash Rabbi Cunin's statement by resorting to apologetics was rather lame. So, is Rabbi Cunin representative of mainstream Lubavitch ideology, or is he a fringe Meshichist? Since there was no criticism, censure or retraction from Chabad that I am aware of, the implication is that he does, indeed, represent the mainstream of Chabad belief.

65

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:25 PM I was @ a shiur with Rav Miller Says:

Many years ago at a shiur with Rav Avigdor Miler, a participant asked what he thought of the Lubavitchers saying their Rebbe is Moshiach. To my surprise, He responded by saying that "The Lubavitcher Rebbe is definitely Bchezkas Moshiach and I for one would like to see him succeed"
Its recorded on one of the Rav's tapes.

Shmuel Berkowitz
Torah Vodaas

66

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:13 PM Response To Wolf Says:

Be proud of your siblings! Lubavitch is the way to go! If I was only younger I would of joined too.

67

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:11 PM Harav Prevarsky Shlita Says:

Harav Prevarsky Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva in Ponovezh, was a Talmid in Lubavitch when Shach came for a probe shiur.
No Legend. It's Fact.

68

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:58 PM Anonymous Says:

In every sect, group and culture there are wackos, pple off the beaten path. Lubavitch is an amazing chassidus, they do so so much for klal yisroel around the world. yet there are some that embaress themselves and every jew around when they scream ani mamin , moshiach, yechi....on the streets, in manhattan...but what really ticks me off is when the same pple that bash chabad take advantage of them when on vacation or business and need a mikvah, minyan, kosher....

69

 Nov 19, 2009 at 07:01 PM leib Says:

Reply to #5  
Misnaged Says:

When R' Shach says what he says at a public gathering, he means for you to believe that. A machlokes between gedolim usually stays between gedolim. That was not the case here at all.

you totally missed the point. who are you to judge whats a machlokes gedolim and what isn't. the shpoler zeide and rav nachman didnt get along, the vilna gaon and the baal hatanya etc. until you know a fraction of a fraction of the Torah either one knew keep out.

70

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:49 PM Anonymous Says:

says in medresh eicha , that Moshiach will reveal himself and then be concealed , those that still believe him will be the minority and they will eat desert shrubs and roots but when Moshiach reveals himself for the second time then all Klal Yisroel will believe.

71

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:48 PM Sechel Says:

Reply to #13  
ABBARBANEL! Says:

While the great Abbarbanel (quoting the Sanhedrin) states that Moshiach may come from the dead, I don't think that this option is what most Jews "imagine" it would be like.
But, the main thing is that he should come! and if it turns out to be the Lubavitzcher Rebbe Zt"l, I am sure that even the biggest Misnagid will be delighted!
so as the Chabadniks say: MOSHIACH NOW!!

If Moshiach can come from the dead, then why would we prefer the Lubavitcher Rebbe over Moshe Rabbeinu?

72

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:53 PM to shmuel #65 Says:

very interesting indeed - thanks for sharing

73

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

Didn't Rebbe Akiva let everyone know that Bar Kochba is Moshiach?

Yes and when Bar Kochba died, R. Akiva realized that he was wrong.... seems that this lesson is lost on the meshichistim

74

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:14 PM Ex-Lubav - sick of them now Says:

Reply to #58  
Monsey Balebos Says:

Chevra,
Please let's not get sidetracked by the bobbeh mayses being told by some very biased and bored kids in Oholei Torah.
Let us deal with facts.Indisputable facts.
*770 is run by the Meshichisten, the group that proclaims the Rebbe to be alive and Moshiach.Remember this is Chabad Lubavitchs headquarters.
*The largest Chabad yeshiva in the world is the yeshiva in Tzfas with over 430 boys.It is unabashedly Meshichist,its rosh yeshiva Wilschansky is "shpitz Chabad" and one of the leaders of the Meshichist movement so are the rest of the rebbeim.
*Kfar Chabad magazine is teetering on bankrupcy, was closed down and barely reopened.This is the organ of the non meshichist,HOWEVER,Bais Moshiach mag.organ of the Meshichist is thriving and printing thousands od magazines weekly
*At the hachnosas sefer torah for the kedoshim in Mumbai, a massive operation run by the supposedly non meshichist group last week when thousands of shluchim were here from the whole world, the Rebbe was honored with the first hakofa!!DOES IT SOUND LIKE EVEN THE MAINSTREAM GROUP believes he was nifter?
Think before you answer.

Although I haven't read his complete article, I disagree with the author, Tomer Persico, only in that I am certain the Rebbe zt"l himself did NOT believe he was Moshiach. In fact he openly said so, stating verbally and in writing that Moshiach would come in the generation after him (see 'Besuros Hagula' Parshas Shmini).
Sadly, though, the author, Dr. Berger, and the Monsey Balebos are correct that Lubavitch today is permeated through and through with their heretical belief in a 'Second Coming,' not much different than the 'Jews for J.' A number of these irrational people are posting here. Those who quoted Rabbi Miller's praise for the Rebbe as being qualified to be considered a candidate for being Moshiah, fail to differentiate that he referred this way to the Rebbe only at a time when he was still alive -- believing this way after his death is quite a different story! People like poster #63, who wrote "Didn't Rebbe Akiva let everyone know that Bar Kochba is Moshiach?" seem incapable of digesting this difference. It is open Gemorah and Rambam that once Bar Kochba died Rebbe Akiva and ALL JEWS realized Bar Kochba could not have been Moshiach.

75

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:24 PM Correction! Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

There is no Moshiach until he comes. It's not like he wanders around waiting for Gd to tell him to reveal himself! In every generation there is someone with the potential to be Moshiach and if we, as a nation, do what needs to be done for the era of Moshiach to begin, then Eliyahu Hanavi will come, reveal Moshiach to us and the rest is in the books. The Rebbe did NOT believe he was Moshiach because he wasn't (or isn't yet, whichever way you believe) because Moshiach hasn't yet been revealed. Was he the potential Moshiach of the generation? Tha's for each person to believe on his/her own terms.

Wrong!

Bar Kochvah story in the proof, and that the Rambam gives Simonim for the Potential Moshiach - seals it! why would the Rambam bother with Simonim if it's not relavant to Action???

Git Shabbos!

76

 Nov 19, 2009 at 11:38 PM Baruch Katz Says:

What an outrage to use the anniversary of the tragic death of a couple of Chabad chassidim to revive the old lies against Chabad chassidim. The idea that any significant amount of chassidim today harbor heretical views about their rebbe is patently false, and the idea that the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself held such views is disrespectful slander of a talmud chacham. How could the editors of this website possibly have allowed such an inaccurate and incendiary article to be published?

77

 Nov 20, 2009 at 08:19 AM NW Sefardi Says:

No Jew has impacted the world in such a great way as did our beloved "Rebbe"
I am not a Chabadnik, but rather Sefardi, but I am no fool. Any Yid who studies Torah is acutely aware that there is a Mashiach in every single generation. If the circumstances warrant it (ie: we warrant it with tremendous Shemirat torah and Ahavat Yisrael) the Mashiach of the generation will be called upon to perform their role as Mashiach. As A Sefardi, and a Jew with Yirat Hashamayim, I would be foolish to think the Rebbe ZTL was not the Gadol and Mashiach of our generation. As for Rav Shach and Rabi Ovadya Yosef, their are both tremendous Gedolim and Tzaddikim. However, anyone who would label the Rebbe of Lubavitch as an apostate, or construe their Torah commentary in a negative light are simply mistaken. Take care fellow Yidden, we must not criticize or harm our fellow Jews or Rabbanim with Lashon Hara. Just because we do not understand the elusive role of Mashiach ben david or Ben Yosef does not give us permission to attack a fellow Jew or Tzaddik. The Lubavitcher Rebbe is a great light in our generation.; May Hashem have mercy upon us and send us our righteous Mashiach Ben David!

78

 Nov 20, 2009 at 07:00 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #51  
SimchaB Says:

Reply to #48: But you won't find such a mekor where they named their Rebbi as Moshiach in his lifetime and continued doing so after his passing. That is where the dangerous territory is!

Actually you will find exactly that. Look at some of the early chassidic works, such as Noam Elimelech, and how they refer to the holy Baal Shem Tov even after his passing.

79

 Nov 20, 2009 at 06:58 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #44  
from 21 Says:

Listen, I am as Chabad as can be. But I have yet to hear a first hand account of this. It is always someone who spoke to someone etc. It does us no good to spread stories like this. The Rebbe always said that it was ossur for us to respond to sinas chinam, and this story is not mitzad ahavas Yisroel.

If you have yet to hear a first hand account then you obviously haven't asked the right people. If you don't ask people who were at Lud in the '50s, then you won't hear a first hand account.

80

 Nov 20, 2009 at 06:50 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Urban legend. Another version is that he wanted a job in a Chabad yeshiva but did not get it. Not provable.

It is certainly true. He applied for a job as a RY at Tomchei Tmimim in Lod, and gave a shiur to try out, and one of the bochurim (RYF of OT) tore it to pieces. I heard this from someone who was there.

81

 Nov 20, 2009 at 06:55 AM sure Says:

sure, Rav Shach zt"l who was one of the greatest minds in Torah in the last generation, who was handpicked by the Ponovezher Rov zt"l to lead the elite yeshiva in the world, that has produced the greatest minds in Torah in the world, but he wasn't good enough for a lubavitch yeshiva who aren't famous for their expertise in gemorra, I always knew chabad said some strange things, but not this strange (actually the story doesn't go like this, it was the LR that applied for a litvishe yeshiva that wanted a shiur in Tanya, but he wasn't good enough...).

82

 Nov 20, 2009 at 06:18 AM Anonymous Says:

For an intelligent discussion of the Rebbe's messianic view, read Eliot Wolfson's new book: "Open Secret."

Eylu v'eylu divrey e-lokim chaim...

83

 Nov 20, 2009 at 05:30 AM FriendOfTheCunins Says:

Reply to #64  
Shua Cohen Says:

Let us not forget what Rabbi Cunin, Director of West Coast Chabad, said on December 10, 2008 (before the fate of the Mumbai kedoshim was known). No one made this up. For those who have not heard it, you can watch the video on YouTube:

"They will understand and see that it's the Rebbe who runs this world 'til he comes to take us out of golus now."

Of course, this statement caused a firestorm of criticism. Rabbi Cunin clearly implies that there is no distinction between the Rebbe and G-d (chas v'shalom) and the Rebbe and Moshiach. The attempt by some Lubavitchers to whitewash Rabbi Cunin's statement by resorting to apologetics was rather lame. So, is Rabbi Cunin representative of mainstream Lubavitch ideology, or is he a fringe Meshichist? Since there was no criticism, censure or retraction from Chabad that I am aware of, the implication is that he does, indeed, represent the mainstream of Chabad belief.

When you are under pressure as he was, you can very easily say things that do not make sense.

If Rabbi Cunin said this on the Telethon, then you would have a real problem. But that was a private gathering which had no business being taped and put on YouTube. However, he could care less about the "firestorm of criticism" which you imagine came out of that video.

I know Rabbi Cunin very, very well. He is a fiery character to be sure, and very dramatic, but he does not believe anything REMOTELY like what you are accusing him of.

And he also does not care one iota for what people say about him behind his back. The firestorm of criticism came only from baalei machloikes, scoffers, leitzonim and mecharcherei riv who were upset at all the achdus that Chabad was generating out of the terrible tragedy of Mumbai. Those of us in Chabad who thought what he said was a little unusual knew full well of his style and the pressure he was under.

That is because not one of the scoffers has done one one thousandth of what he has done to build Judaism and kehillos kedoshim in what was a field filled with all kinds of spiritual weeds including a"z mamash that were leading Yidden astr

84

 Nov 20, 2009 at 09:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
sure Says:

sure, Rav Shach zt"l who was one of the greatest minds in Torah in the last generation, who was handpicked by the Ponovezher Rov zt"l to lead the elite yeshiva in the world, that has produced the greatest minds in Torah in the world, but he wasn't good enough for a lubavitch yeshiva who aren't famous for their expertise in gemorra, I always knew chabad said some strange things, but not this strange (actually the story doesn't go like this, it was the LR that applied for a litvishe yeshiva that wanted a shiur in Tanya, but he wasn't good enough...).

Your arguing with the wall, as a insider in chabad, i can tell you even if it's raining outside, if they say it's dry,they wll never admit it.

85

 Nov 20, 2009 at 08:55 AM ha Says:

Reply to #80  
Milhouse Says:

It is certainly true. He applied for a job as a RY at Tomchei Tmimim in Lod, and gave a shiur to try out, and one of the bochurim (RYF of OT) tore it to pieces. I heard this from someone who was there.

do yourself a favour (and everyone else),if you want to keep your credibility for other posts keep out of this discussion,for i know your alleigance makes you not be able to think straight on this subject,and you just make yourself look ridiculous.

86

 Nov 20, 2009 at 08:54 AM Respect Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

While many people have philosophical differences and disagreements, schach took it to nasty, personal attacks against the Rebbe. Could it be simple jealousy? Go around and ask who schach is, and then compare to how many people in the world know who the Rebbe is and what he stands for.

Even after his death schach, when mentioned is the source of negative energy (as cited in this article).

One needs to travel to Queens to the Rebbe's ohel and see for themself a constant stream of Yidden and lehavdil nit yidden coming to the Rebbe just like it was before gimel tamuz. Frum and not frum, men and women, poilishe chassidim and chabadniks, sefardim and ashkenazim, etc.

Rebbe's focus was to bring Moshiach sooner for one and only reason - his infinite love of each and every Jew. This love and concern continues on and in that sense the Rebbe is alive!

Please, Rav Schach was the accpeted Gadol Hador, please use respect when referencing his name. Simply using his last name is disrespectful!

87

 Nov 20, 2009 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #86  
Respect Says:

Please, Rav Schach was the accpeted Gadol Hador, please use respect when referencing his name. Simply using his last name is disrespectful!

he was disrespectful to others in public to so i dont think much of him.

88

 Nov 20, 2009 at 03:19 AM just goes to show Says:

Reply to #67  
Harav Prevarsky Shlita Says:

Harav Prevarsky Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva in Ponovezh, was a Talmid in Lubavitch when Shach came for a probe shiur.
No Legend. It's Fact.

thanks for proving how reliable the fabricated "facts" that your sort spout, RP never learnt in lub.in a million years, he learnt in chevron and ponovezh,oh and btw however many times you repeat this garbage does'nt make it any truer,it just make lub. look more ridiculous (if thats poss., i mean this is easy stuff compared to claiming a dead person alive).

89

 Nov 20, 2009 at 10:15 AM Shua Cohen Says:

Reply to #83  
FriendOfTheCunins Says:

When you are under pressure as he was, you can very easily say things that do not make sense.

If Rabbi Cunin said this on the Telethon, then you would have a real problem. But that was a private gathering which had no business being taped and put on YouTube. However, he could care less about the "firestorm of criticism" which you imagine came out of that video.

I know Rabbi Cunin very, very well. He is a fiery character to be sure, and very dramatic, but he does not believe anything REMOTELY like what you are accusing him of.

And he also does not care one iota for what people say about him behind his back. The firestorm of criticism came only from baalei machloikes, scoffers, leitzonim and mecharcherei riv who were upset at all the achdus that Chabad was generating out of the terrible tragedy of Mumbai. Those of us in Chabad who thought what he said was a little unusual knew full well of his style and the pressure he was under.

That is because not one of the scoffers has done one one thousandth of what he has done to build Judaism and kehillos kedoshim in what was a field filled with all kinds of spiritual weeds including a"z mamash that were leading Yidden astr

"They will understand and see that it's the Rebbe who runs this world until he comes to take us out of golus now." [verbatim quote from Rabbi Boruch S. Cunin, 12/10/08]

Since you can't dodge Rabbi Cunin's words, you claim that he didn't really mean what he said. This is the apologist's classic canard.

~ 1st excuse: he was "under pressure," therefore he didn't mean what he said. On the contrary, people under pressure often blurt out the truth. Any lawyer who has questioned a witness on the stand knows this.

~ 2nd excuse: "That was a private gathering which had no business being taped..." I don't agree, but what's the relevance of this to what he said?

~ 3rd excuse: "...he does not believe anything REMOTELY like what you are accusing him of." Hello! I'm not accusing him of anything. I just reported what he said in plain English. Because his words are so disturbing you desperately try to whitewash them away.

~ 4th excuse: "The firestorm of criticism came only from baalei machloikes, scoffers, leitzonim..." etc. Sorry, but the criticism came from just about everybody outside of the Chabad olam. Are all the rest of Klal Yisrael baalei machloikes, scoffers and leitzonim? Whoa!

90

 Nov 20, 2009 at 12:27 PM Getzel the Pretzel Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

For an intelligent discussion of the Rebbe's messianic view, read Eliot Wolfson's new book: "Open Secret."

Eylu v'eylu divrey e-lokim chaim...

"Eylu v'eylu divrey e-lokim chaim...”

The pshat in Eylu v'eylu divrey e-lokim chaim, based on Tosfos R' Peretz and the Ritva in Eruvin, does not fit into what you are saying. Please do not quote concepts you do not understand.

91

 Nov 21, 2009 at 07:01 AM Fact! Says:

Reply to #88  
just goes to show Says:

thanks for proving how reliable the fabricated "facts" that your sort spout, RP never learnt in lub.in a million years, he learnt in chevron and ponovezh,oh and btw however many times you repeat this garbage does'nt make it any truer,it just make lub. look more ridiculous (if thats poss., i mean this is easy stuff compared to claiming a dead person alive).

Harav Hagaon R' Y Friedman Shlita (who is well known by non lubavithers too as a Gadol Batorah) was there, and while he didn't say it in the contexet of exusing why R' Shavch hates Chabad, he did confirm the fact that R' Shach did give a trial Shiur in The Lud Yeshivah, and that he was never hiered for any poition in the Yeshivah.

Again, that's a fact! weather this is the reason why he hates Chabad, is debateable!

Rav Friedman, and many others who were there are still alive and well, and may be asked about the facts!

92

 Nov 21, 2009 at 07:47 PM Ahavas Chinam Says:

Reply to #53  
Monsey Balebos Says:

Many of the Lubavitcher posters here claim that this article is baseless,if so why can't any of them put their name to it?
How come Lesches is not heard from?
The answer is in the article! Most of them quietly do believe in the fact that's why you will very seldom see a name posted to protest

Seems that you're claiming to be a Navi - you know what "most of them" believe. I'm a journalist (in a frum paper) so the guy writes well. What are his credentials in spouting off about: Yiddishkeit, Chabad, Rav Shach, Moshiach, etc...
Before reading anything I want to know sources. He, my friend, is not a source of anything in the world of Chassidus, Yeshivos, Rabbanim, etc..

93

 Nov 21, 2009 at 08:36 PM Ahavas Chinam Says:

Reply to #76  
Baruch Katz Says:

What an outrage to use the anniversary of the tragic death of a couple of Chabad chassidim to revive the old lies against Chabad chassidim. The idea that any significant amount of chassidim today harbor heretical views about their rebbe is patently false, and the idea that the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself held such views is disrespectful slander of a talmud chacham. How could the editors of this website possibly have allowed such an inaccurate and incendiary article to be published?

Amazing that you are the only poster to point this out. A writer writes what will sell and capitalized on a tragedy of epic proportions to state his filth. Yes, it is filth, look what it is caused . bizayon of talmidei chachamim, lashon hara, sinas chinam.
And you know how clever he is by his opening paragraph which lured in all unsuspecting readers who thought we were reading an article dedicated to kedoshei Mumbai.
"For several terrifying days in late November 2008, all Jewish eyes were on the Indian city of Mumbai. Muslim terrorists had launched a series of coordinated shooting targets....including the Nariman Chabad House, a hasidic cultural center that served the local Jewish community... terrorists held those inside hostage;.... There they found the bodies of six captives, including the young Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, Rivka, then six months pregnant. Only the Holtzbergs’ two-year-old son, Moshe, survived, ...
Dishonest and unscrupulous reporting, to boot.

94

 Nov 21, 2009 at 09:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
just goes to show Says:

thanks for proving how reliable the fabricated "facts" that your sort spout, RP never learnt in lub.in a million years, he learnt in chevron and ponovezh,oh and btw however many times you repeat this garbage does'nt make it any truer,it just make lub. look more ridiculous (if thats poss., i mean this is easy stuff compared to claiming a dead person alive).

I am related To Harav Prevarsky Shlita and he did learn in Lubavitch.
His Father was a mashgiach in Lubavitch as well.
Don't speculate just go over to him and ask him. He is very proud of where he learnt.
I know that every Tuesday night he has a kvius to learn Likutei Sichos in his home.
again there is no reason to speculate you could approach him and ask him. He is a very honest and open person.

95

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:48 AM Another Cohen Says:

Reply to #89  
Shua Cohen Says:

"They will understand and see that it's the Rebbe who runs this world until he comes to take us out of golus now." [verbatim quote from Rabbi Boruch S. Cunin, 12/10/08]

Since you can't dodge Rabbi Cunin's words, you claim that he didn't really mean what he said. This is the apologist's classic canard.

~ 1st excuse: he was "under pressure," therefore he didn't mean what he said. On the contrary, people under pressure often blurt out the truth. Any lawyer who has questioned a witness on the stand knows this.

~ 2nd excuse: "That was a private gathering which had no business being taped..." I don't agree, but what's the relevance of this to what he said?

~ 3rd excuse: "...he does not believe anything REMOTELY like what you are accusing him of." Hello! I'm not accusing him of anything. I just reported what he said in plain English. Because his words are so disturbing you desperately try to whitewash them away.

~ 4th excuse: "The firestorm of criticism came only from baalei machloikes, scoffers, leitzonim..." etc. Sorry, but the criticism came from just about everybody outside of the Chabad olam. Are all the rest of Klal Yisrael baalei machloikes, scoffers and leitzonim? Whoa!

I think it's pretty obvious that he meant that the Rebbe's will will be fulfilled and not that of the terrorists, since Hashem listens to the tzaddikim, Hkb"h gozer vetzadik mevatel etc. If you're not looking lekanter, then this is clear to you. As to the Rebbe leading us out of golus, every generation will be lead by their Nassi when Moshiach comes, like it says about the dor hamidbar that they will come with Moshe and Aharon, This has nothing to do with who Moshiach is.

96

 Dec 21, 2009 at 02:59 PM Arnie Lustiger Says:

The complete article contains 28 pages with 17 more pages containing 96 footnotes. Anyone who wishes to criticize the article has to first read it in its entirety- not only the first two pages as quoted above. The Rebbe's implicit assertions that he was Moshiach is already cited in Meshichist literature, although it is more extensive here, with more analysis.

97

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