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Israel - Health Minister Orders Hospital to Tend to Brain-Dead Baby |
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Published on:
Nov 20, 2009 at 07:43 AM
News Source: Jpost
News Source: Jpost
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A doctor at the hospital told the TV station that hospital staff was now "essentially tending to a corpse."
Litzman also reportedly warned the hospital that "it was under a magnifying glass" regarding its treatment of the infant.
The ultra-orthodox minister reportedly leans on a clause in the law on brain death which states that a brain-dead patient comes from a family where disconnecting him from life-sustaining devices goes against the family's faith, the family has a right to maintain the patient alive.
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Read Comments (32) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 20, 2009 at 08:08 AM yoelg Says:
the first time I see a good thing in isreal, sham on you doctors of shnider hospital & thanks to rav litzman
2
Nov 20, 2009 at 08:25 AM Anonymous Says:
Our deep prayers to Hashem that to prove brain dead is not actual death, He help this baby wake up and recover fully. What a great Kiddush Hashem this will be and the Tora will be honored even by the not so religous.
3
Nov 20, 2009 at 08:32 AM Anonymous Says:
Narrow interpatation? It's right there black & white. Are these journalist blind, or do they only see things that they like?
4
Nov 20, 2009 at 08:43 AM Anonymous Says:
If someone could please explain something-Hashem should grant the baby a refuh shlema and yes mericales do happen but what I don't get is how can the gvmnt tell a private hospital what to do, the community at large should put pressure on the hospital to try everything for this baby as long as his heart is beating but I don't think its a good idea for the govmnt to order them to do it I think that they are going down a slippery slope if whenever a minister and next time it can be a secular left winger can dictate to a hospital who to and who not to save there should be a set protocol in place
5
Nov 20, 2009 at 08:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Our deep prayers to Hashem that to prove brain dead is not actual death, He help this baby wake up and recover fully. What a great Kiddush Hashem this will be and the Tora will be honored even by the not so religous. ”
unfortunately even if this happens the reshaim kofrim will say it is a fluke "mee hashem asher eshma bekolo"
6
Nov 20, 2009 at 09:17 AM formally Says:
thes eare no case that a brain dead person got well it is simply impossible.,
Does anybody ever step back and think you are interfering with g-ds will maybe he wants the baby to die and you are interfering.
Yes they are keeping a corpse alive leaving the babies soul in limbo
7
Nov 20, 2009 at 09:13 AM Anonymous Says:
the question isnt what it appears by utilizing artificial means we can keep the lungs and heart beating but the real question isnt is he dead but are we allowed to keep a body from dieing at its proper time
8
Nov 20, 2009 at 09:13 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Our deep prayers to Hashem that to prove brain dead is not actual death, He help this baby wake up and recover fully. What a great Kiddush Hashem this will be and the Tora will be honored even by the not so religous. ”
oman i hope so to
9
Nov 20, 2009 at 09:35 AM Anonymous Says:
Nissim do occur, & this is the time when Chassidus says we can & should expect Nissim as we're in Chodesh Kislev.
10
Nov 20, 2009 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Our deep prayers to Hashem that to prove brain dead is not actual death, He help this baby wake up and recover fully. What a great Kiddush Hashem this will be and the Tora will be honored even by the not so religous. ”
I am sure Hashem thanks you for your advice.
First you should find out and post the name of the child so you can say a Kapital Tehilim for this child. Aint it so?
11
Nov 20, 2009 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:
Litzman again acts like a ill-informed political hack who panders to the chareidi kehillah rather than making decisions as a public health professional. His decision to intrude in a matter where he has zero knowledge is a shame for the government and sets a terrible precedent. It reminds me of when the right wing Republican zealots intervened on behalf of the poor girl in Florida who eventually died anyway but not before they milked the issue for all of its political benefits.
12
Nov 20, 2009 at 09:49 AM professor Says:
While we paskin that life goes after the heart and not the brain, we do acknowledge that brain death is cessation of brain activity. If a child is brain dead, he can not b'derech hatevah recover. A nes niglah would be required for that. If proper tests were done, brain death can be confirmed, conclusively. At that point, a refuah shlaimah is on par with T'chias hameisim.
13
Nov 20, 2009 at 08:53 AM Aron Says:
“ If someone could please explain something-Hashem should grant the baby a refuh shlema and yes mericales do happen but what I don't get is how can the gvmnt tell a private hospital what to do, the community at large should put pressure on the hospital to try everything for this baby as long as his heart is beating but I don't think its a good idea for the govmnt to order them to do it I think that they are going down a slippery slope if whenever a minister and next time it can be a secular left winger can dictate to a hospital who to and who not to save there should be a set protocol in place ”
The government is not capriciously telling a private hospital what to do. There are laws that private citizens, private enterprises and public enterprises must follow. Government officials ensure that the laws are adhered to.
14
Nov 20, 2009 at 08:49 AM Anonymous Says:
I do not wish to take sides in any way, but you really ought to realise that many, many gedolei haposkim hold that brain death really is death. I know there are those who hold otherwise, and am far from being in a position to decide who is right, but you must be fair and recognise there are other opinions in halocho even if you personally follow others.
15
Nov 20, 2009 at 10:06 AM Milhouse Says:
“ thes eare no case that a brain dead person got well it is simply impossible.,
Does anybody ever step back and think you are interfering with g-ds will maybe he wants the baby to die and you are interfering.
Yes they are keeping a corpse alive leaving the babies soul in limbo ”
Do you imagine we are able to interfere with His will? If He wants the baby to die it will die, with or without our help. We are commanded not to kill a person, even if he is about to die anyway.
16
Nov 20, 2009 at 11:09 AM Anonymous Says:
Number 6 - Lo Alaynu but if R"L it was your child whould you pull the plug? How dare you think the family in this case should. I personally know this family. They did not give up nor will they. It is their daughter. Their adorable little wonderful beautiful delicious cute baby girl. A Neshoma. A breathing heart. They cry, they Daven, they have gone to our greatest gedolim who have told them not to C"V pull any plug and have told them they too will Daven for her.
What Hashem has in mind at the end we do not know. Our job is to Daven and NEVER end a life. The Malach Hamoves has that job and with the Aibershters permission he acts. We are not the Maloch Hamoves and as I started I end - if R"L it was your child would you pull the plug and end her life? If yes you are a rotzayach not a Rachamim. it would only be because you couldn't handle seeing your child in that Matzav and not because it was the Rotzon hashem. Hashem does not need our help to decide when a person is dead. He can handle that one on his own!
17
Nov 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM Yid Says:
“ thes eare no case that a brain dead person got well it is simply impossible.,
Does anybody ever step back and think you are interfering with g-ds will maybe he wants the baby to die and you are interfering.
Yes they are keeping a corpse alive leaving the babies soul in limbo ”
Would you let your baby die Chas v'Sholom? You don't make halacha according to your feelings, this is not the first case.
I once heard from a Rav/Rebbe that was asked what do you Daven for when some one is brain dead? he answerd daven for meshiach, when meshiach will come all the choloim will be heald.
18
Nov 20, 2009 at 10:41 AM A question Says:
“ Do you imagine we are able to interfere with His will? If He wants the baby to die it will die, with or without our help. We are commanded not to kill a person, even if he is about to die anyway. ”
Is it possible that it is His will that babies who are dead should be buried and not be hooked up to machines that keep their hearts beating indefinitely while their brain begins to liquefy? (This process is known as lysis. It is what happens to the brain of those kept "alive" in this fashion. The cells begin to break down, which turns the brain into a thick soup.)
19
Nov 20, 2009 at 10:37 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Do you imagine we are able to interfere with His will? If He wants the baby to die it will die, with or without our help. We are commanded not to kill a person, even if he is about to die anyway. ”
The baby is already "dead"...its just that their are some who don't accept the standard definition used by the large percentage of the medical community and most bioethictists.
20
Nov 20, 2009 at 10:21 AM jancsi Says:
“ Nissim do occur, & this is the time when Chassidus says we can & should expect Nissim as we're in Chodesh Kislev. ”
cant you read what #6 wrote there isnt one case where a person in that situation got well you dont hear others only what you want to say what a selfish person you are if youre willing to pay for it youreselfs then no one would go against youre wishes but to pay for it with others money is an injustice and the ultimate selfisheness
21
Nov 20, 2009 at 10:15 AM baskedoshim Says:
“ thes eare no case that a brain dead person got well it is simply impossible.,
Does anybody ever step back and think you are interfering with g-ds will maybe he wants the baby to die and you are interfering.
Yes they are keeping a corpse alive leaving the babies soul in limbo ”
If you chas vshalom see someone collapse, don't go over, just step back and think if you're interfering with G-d's plan
22
Nov 20, 2009 at 12:07 PM A Question Says:
“ Is it possible that it is His will that babies who are dead should be buried and not be hooked up to machines that keep their hearts beating indefinitely while their brain begins to liquefy? (This process is known as lysis. It is what happens to the brain of those kept "alive" in this fashion. The cells begin to break down, which turns the brain into a thick soup.) ”
I apologize if my post regarding lysis was a bit too graphic.
However, it seems proper that those feel we should daven for a "Refuah Sheleimah" should understand something about cell biology and what happens to the brain once its blood supply has been cut off, which is what "brain death" means.
To me, at least, it is somewhat ironic that those who are most particular about seeing to it that the dead are buried the same day, lest the soul suffer, are willing to accept a situation like the one I described, r"l.
23
Nov 20, 2009 at 01:12 PM PMO Says:
“ Is it possible that it is His will that babies who are dead should be buried and not be hooked up to machines that keep their hearts beating indefinitely while their brain begins to liquefy? (This process is known as lysis. It is what happens to the brain of those kept "alive" in this fashion. The cells begin to break down, which turns the brain into a thick soup.) ”
I'm glad you brought this up. 20 years ago, brain death was not as well diagnosed as it is today. Today, through scans, they can tell when a brain is 100% dead. The brain is one of the first organs to begin breaking down after death. While it does not really "liquify", its properties do change into a non-functional matter.
I think we are all 99.99999% sure that brain death (as we know it TODAY) is death. However, poskim have worked on this issue for many years. For me (and clearly for them), that .000000001% chance that we are wrong makes it hard to not "err on the side of caution".
Organs can be kept going for long periods of time while not only is there no brain activity, there is hardly even a recognizable brain left. I'm sure our knowledge in this area will continue to grow and our understanding will continue to evolve, but for now, we have to go with what we know.
24
Nov 20, 2009 at 01:50 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Litzman again acts like a ill-informed political hack who panders to the chareidi kehillah rather than making decisions as a public health professional. His decision to intrude in a matter where he has zero knowledge is a shame for the government and sets a terrible precedent. It reminds me of when the right wing Republican zealots intervened on behalf of the poor girl in Florida who eventually died anyway but not before they milked the issue for all of its political benefits. ”
She didn't "die anyway", she was murdered in cold blood.
25
Nov 20, 2009 at 11:58 AM Chelmite Says:
“ While we paskin that life goes after the heart and not the brain, we do acknowledge that brain death is cessation of brain activity. If a child is brain dead, he can not b'derech hatevah recover. A nes niglah would be required for that. If proper tests were done, brain death can be confirmed, conclusively. At that point, a refuah shlaimah is on par with T'chias hameisim. ”
Since Tchias Hameisim is soon to appear - this instances could
prepare us for it!
Medical tests are far from perfect. People who have been declared brain dead have woken up!
There are very specific Halacos for such a situation. I believe
it says that the person should be given Nutrition but if there is no expectation of their survival, heroic measures need not be taken
but witholding Nutrition is not allowed.
26
Nov 20, 2009 at 11:37 AM SimchaB Says:
Reply to #11: Actually you are the ill informed hack blogger. All Litzman did was to ensure that the family's religious beliefs were being respected, as the law dictates and the article mentions, so he apparently has knowledge of the law and you are the one with zero knowledge. Not only on this case do you display your ignorance, you also do it in the case of the "girl" from Florida actually an adult woman. Terry Schiavo did not require any machinery at all to keep her alive. All she required was to be fed just like any other severely disabled person. She was callously executed by a court ordered starvation to satisfy the whim of her "husband" who couldn't wait to marry his new girlfriend and wanted to expunge any evidence of his mistreatment of her which likely put her into that statein the first place. Her cruel and cold hearted execution which took an excruciating 10-14 days will be an everlasting blot of shame on our country. It's high time you got rid of all the hatred in your heart and the ignorance in your brain. U'bacharta Bachaim!
27
Nov 20, 2009 at 03:06 PM jancsi Says:
what amazes me is that how arrogant those bloggers who want the child to be sustained kept alive against all odds or hope with someone elses money if it would come for them to pay im 100 per cent sure they wouldnt hesitate to let the child die alot of those holier then thou bloggers are 2 faced people talk big with someone elses money
28
Nov 20, 2009 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:
To all you self made doctors,
There is no sure Brain Death. There are no scans to prove it. There are muktiple tests that can prove probable braim death. But never definete.
Actually part of the brain is alive & that's why some organs are still functioning.
As for the lib who mentioned the case in Florida, in that case she wasn't even on life support, and she was starved to death. Some brain death. Murderer!
29
Nov 20, 2009 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:
They should keep away these Charedi politicians from important positions like public health, economy, and interior. All they do is use and abuse their powers to pander to the Charedim. The child is dead and now the hospital is forced to waste precious resources from other patients. Not only that, this public health minister who has zero comprehension of modern medicine, has instilled further distrust of doctors within the family and Charedi world, which already thrives on ignorance and fear of "Zionist Doctors."
Litzman should make private Charedi charities pay for the senseless expenses and not the hospital.
30
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:37 PM Anonymous Says:
Unfortunately, when there was a case R"L in Wasington, D.C. last year - the child WAS kept hooked up because it was explained to the Hospital that PULLING THE PLUG is the equivalent of killing someone. But, in Israel 2009 it's much tougher to explain that concept to fellow Jews. Brain death is not the only criteria Frum Yiden look for to confirm death. Once and for all that should be the LAW. PULLING THE PLUG is M U R D E R ! When Hashem decides the time is up - that's when the person will die.
31
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:53 PM Anonymous Says:
Sometimes we have to believe in miracles and may Hashem bless this family with a miracle for their baby.
32
Nov 23, 2009 at 03:08 AM me Says:
“ I do not wish to take sides in any way, but you really ought to realise that many, many gedolei haposkim hold that brain death really is death. I know there are those who hold otherwise, and am far from being in a position to decide who is right, but you must be fair and recognise there are other opinions in halocho even if you personally follow others. ”
"many gedolei haposkim hold that brain death really is death."
If those gedolim include people who translate their father in law's shailos and tshuvos sefer into English against his wishes or those that fabricated an attack on Metzitzah bipeh, a part of the world's oldest elective surgery with the lowest complication rate of any surgery, I would ask someone else.