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Iowa - Judge Orders Rubashkin To Remain Behind Bars, Gov. Asserts He Aided Co-Worker to Flee To Israel |
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News Source: Iowa News outlets
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Prosecutors, told the court that the fact that Rubashkin was facing a sentence of possibly several hundred years in prison might prompt Rubashkin to flee..
Defense attorneys presented Reade with 1,340 letters from Rubashkin’s supporters, and 43 people who offered the equity to their homes as collateral.
Reade acknowledged Rubashkin’s support in the Orthodox Jewish community, and recognized his commitment to his family in the northeast Iowa town of Postville.
“Nevertheless, the court finds that this evidence does not rise to the ‘clear and convincing’ level necessary to show” that Rubashkin will not flee the country, Reade wrote.
In addition, the prosecution called Mike Fischels, a special agent who has long been assigned to the Agriprocessors case, to testify about an overseas telephone conversation he had with a company supervisor still wanted by the government.
Fischels testified that he spoke with co-defendant Hosam Amara on the telephone about Amara’s flight from the U.S. to Israel. Amara indicated to Fischels that [Rubashkin] told him to leave the U.S. and return to Israel in order to remove himself from the situation facing Agriprocessors.
The government also presented a copy of a check and bank documents that suggest Rubashkin provided financial assistance to Amara around the time that he fled the U.S.
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Read Comments (86) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:06 PM Anonymous Says:
This whole nightmare is going to hurt jews everywhere for years to come as the presumption going forward will be that anyone with a black hat and beard is a "flight risk" to EY. Not only did SMR steal from the banks and all those other crimes he was found guilty of but his actions only serve to confirm all the goiyeshe stereotypes of yiddin.
2
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:25 PM Anonymous Says:
Enough with Rubashkin...every day another story...its time to move on to the next yiddeshe ganof. Lets focus on jews who do good for the community rather than obcessing about every detail of those who have caused such a chilul hashem.
3
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:25 PM Take it as an opportunity Says:
“ This whole nightmare is going to hurt jews everywhere for years to come as the presumption going forward will be that anyone with a black hat and beard is a "flight risk" to EY. Not only did SMR steal from the banks and all those other crimes he was found guilty of but his actions only serve to confirm all the goiyeshe stereotypes of yiddin. ”
Instead of affirming what you are saying , I would take this opportunity to seize the opportunity for the Jewish community to fight the stereotype that this Judge is projecting, and based on the fact that Israel has an extradition with Israel and in the past it worked, to make it illegal for any judge to be able to say that.
In other words it should be the fight of the all Jewish community not because of SMR, but for all of us, regardless of the outcome of his case, that Hashem yerachem and he should be freed immediately.
Please Nat lewin, agudas Yisroel, other Jewish Lawyers and other other Jewish organizations, take this as an opportunity to free us all from this stereotype.
4
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:12 PM Longwave Says:
The government also presented evidence that SMR tampered with evidence and committed bank fraud while indicted before the trial. What a wonderful thing for a Ben Torah to do.
5
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:10 PM You know what i'm sick of this story Says:
I think enough is enough. How much money has been raised for him? How much Pidyon shvuyim? Its not a mitzvah to raise money for such a character. Let the money rather go to poor Kolel yungerleit who sit and learn Hashem's Torah with intent to KEEP WHAT IT SAYS and not make a mockery of it. Corruption can no longer be condoned by our community. We are holding back moshiach.
6
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:09 PM libel Says:
Now that is a total libel!
7
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:
what is a total libel #6 ? are you referring to the article or the comments?
as for me, I'll back #5.
8
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I think enough is enough. How much money has been raised for him? How much Pidyon shvuyim? Its not a mitzvah to raise money for such a character. Let the money rather go to poor Kolel yungerleit who sit and learn Hashem's Torah with intent to KEEP WHAT IT SAYS and not make a mockery of it. Corruption can no longer be condoned by our community. We are holding back moshiach. ”
perhaps you should just go and share Mr. Rubashkins condition and treatment for only a couple of days and then please come back and voice your updated opinion! R"L
9
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The government also presented evidence that SMR tampered with evidence and committed bank fraud while indicted before the trial. What a wonderful thing for a Ben Torah to do. ”
Perhaps all of you brilliant opinion writers. Perhaps you should consider volunteering to spare Mr. Rubashkin's conditions for a just a couple of days. After which, please do return and post your revised opinion. R"L, Rest assured, had Judge Reade accepted such an offer, her opinions expressed and orders, would change accordingly as well!
10
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:16 PM anonymous Says:
“ Instead of affirming what you are saying , I would take this opportunity to seize the opportunity for the Jewish community to fight the stereotype that this Judge is projecting, and based on the fact that Israel has an extradition with Israel and in the past it worked, to make it illegal for any judge to be able to say that.
In other words it should be the fight of the all Jewish community not because of SMR, but for all of us, regardless of the outcome of his case, that Hashem yerachem and he should be freed immediately.
Please Nat lewin, agudas Yisroel, other Jewish Lawyers and other other Jewish organizations, take this as an opportunity to free us all from this stereotype. ”
The most important fact is to stay clear of conflict with the law and get rid of the notion that there is a vendetta. Don't send all the shiluchim, keep your nose clean and obey the U.S. civil code and hashem will be yerachem
11
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:
He was cleared of all immigration charges...it seems that before he was acquitted many of u thought he was guilty of that too, if u noticed they dropped that because they realized other companies would be just as liable...this is a clear libel! And when will u realize Moshiach needs to come!!! Hashem just needs us to realize that Yidden al pi halacha should defend one another no matter what, even when the govt is againt just ONE! Just thank Hashem they haven't gone after u! It doesn't cost u a cent to be dan lekaf zechus!
12
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Perhaps all of you brilliant opinion writers. Perhaps you should consider volunteering to spare Mr. Rubashkin's conditions for a just a couple of days. After which, please do return and post your revised opinion. R"L, Rest assured, had Judge Reade accepted such an offer, her opinions expressed and orders, would change accordingly as well! ”
The people in power as well as everyone else for that matter, have big mouth opinions. Until the coin flips to their side, and they get investigated and prosecuted, Then all of a sudden the rules should completely change for them!!
Please ladies and gentlemen, imagine for just a moment finding yourself in his situation before posting any comment.
13
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:21 PM OMG Says:
It finally came to me like bolt of lightning, and my eyes opened, some of the views articulated in VIN that this is not fraud because when he really committed he earnestly intended to pay back every penny with interest. Therefore the intent counts as long SMR intended to payback there is no breaking of the law. Well on the surface you might think that you make sense, but if you just scratch the surface, you would see that your groundless supposition is not logical it is actually funny and it is ridicules. Let’s look at one well-known case and analyze it, Madoff case, you see Madoff was always a respectable guy he was Chairman of the Nasdaq, he give lots of money for charity, when Madoff started the Ponzi scheme he didn’t intended to steal any money the plan was simple he will pay off with new investors, eventually the whole scheme fall apart and you just cannot pay off everyone, that is why it is illegal, now look at Agri, the testimony by SMR defense, was that well SMR never intended to not pay back the bank, well Madoff didn’t either, if you get a loan legally without any fraud, then yes the law will let you go bankrupted without any consequence, because you obtained the money legally, however if you obtain the money with fraud them the bankruptcy protection is not afforded to the culprit, therefore I am tired to listen to the same old excuse, unfortunately for SMR, the law is the law.
14
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:06 PM Yisrael Says:
It is a total disgrace that Frum Yidden judge other Frum Yiden by what the media and Goyim potray us.
Whatever happened to the idea that we will protect our own.
We are dealing with a Frum Yid that murdered, kidnapped, robbed from others. etc., He just mismanaged his business until it came to a point that he did not know how to get out of the mess.
It's a total Shande and embarrasement to read some of the comments.
I hope that non of you are ever in this situation and worse yet, having to read other Frum Yidden Judging you by how the media and prosecuters potray you.
The Mishna writes "Al Todin es Chaverecha ad shetagia limkomo".
Have each negative comment writer ever visiter the plant in Iowa?
Enough said. Have a good think about it during Krias shma shel Hamita.
15
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:04 PM anonymous Says:
“ This whole nightmare is going to hurt jews everywhere for years to come as the presumption going forward will be that anyone with a black hat and beard is a "flight risk" to EY. Not only did SMR steal from the banks and all those other crimes he was found guilty of but his actions only serve to confirm all the goiyeshe stereotypes of yiddin. ”
well said and in Yiddish there is saying "mir vellen all dus boot ausgissen" .If this man and all of his supporters would have an achryais for klal yisroel they would lie low
16
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:27 PM Longwave Says:
“ Perhaps all of you brilliant opinion writers. Perhaps you should consider volunteering to spare Mr. Rubashkin's conditions for a just a couple of days. After which, please do return and post your revised opinion. R"L, Rest assured, had Judge Reade accepted such an offer, her opinions expressed and orders, would change accordingly as well! ”
I have no intention of exchanging my life style for Mr. Rubashkin.
1) I do not hide under the excuse that I am a Rabbi and therefore I do not knoe how to run a business (or know how to read a contract for $35 million)..
2) I do not write fake meat invoices out to clothing stores.
3) I do not tell my workers to run and hide in Erez Yisroel so that you do not testify against me.
4) I do not give tzedaka out of money that should go to pay off workers or vendors that I bought things from.
What values are you teaching your children? That it is OK to cheat and steal as long as you give tzedaka and funnel someone elses money into a Yeshiva?
17
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:33 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I think enough is enough. How much money has been raised for him? How much Pidyon shvuyim? Its not a mitzvah to raise money for such a character. Let the money rather go to poor Kolel yungerleit who sit and learn Hashem's Torah with intent to KEEP WHAT IT SAYS and not make a mockery of it. Corruption can no longer be condoned by our community. We are holding back moshiach. ”
let the poor kolel yugeleit go to work we dont need a kolel if we cant stand together as one and support this or any other case even dwek
18
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ He was cleared of all immigration charges...it seems that before he was acquitted many of u thought he was guilty of that too, if u noticed they dropped that because they realized other companies would be just as liable...this is a clear libel! And when will u realize Moshiach needs to come!!! Hashem just needs us to realize that Yidden al pi halacha should defend one another no matter what, even when the govt is againt just ONE! Just thank Hashem they haven't gone after u! It doesn't cost u a cent to be dan lekaf zechus! ”
What are you talking about? READ THE GOVERNMENT PAPERS!
The prosecutor dropped that case because he will be punished enough for the fraud charges? What shtus are you going to tell in shul on Shabbos? Another lie and another lie? This will bring Moshiach? The Rebbe would have called in the Rubashkins and set them straight on sheker and emes.
19
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:49 PM Anonymous Says:
Shanda and charpa that Jews are so callous (& frumer yidden) to the plight of a fellow yid. These are people who were famous for their tzedaka and chesed. This whole case smacks of some anti-semitism. However you feel about the whole episode, not to feel for a fellow Jew is an abomination.
20
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:16 PM 2 all u hockers Says:
“ It finally came to me like bolt of lightning, and my eyes opened, some of the views articulated in VIN that this is not fraud because when he really committed he earnestly intended to pay back every penny with interest. Therefore the intent counts as long SMR intended to payback there is no breaking of the law. Well on the surface you might think that you make sense, but if you just scratch the surface, you would see that your groundless supposition is not logical it is actually funny and it is ridicules. Let’s look at one well-known case and analyze it, Madoff case, you see Madoff was always a respectable guy he was Chairman of the Nasdaq, he give lots of money for charity, when Madoff started the Ponzi scheme he didn’t intended to steal any money the plan was simple he will pay off with new investors, eventually the whole scheme fall apart and you just cannot pay off everyone, that is why it is illegal, now look at Agri, the testimony by SMR defense, was that well SMR never intended to not pay back the bank, well Madoff didn’t either, if you get a loan legally without any fraud, then yes the law will let you go bankrupted without any consequence, because you obtained the money legally, however if you obtain the money with fraud them the bankruptcy protection is not afforded to the culprit, therefore I am tired to listen to the same old excuse, unfortunately for SMR, the law is the law. ”
"SMR never intended to not pay back the bank"
get the facts right before you makr statements please,
21
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:11 PM Anonymous Says:
“ He was cleared of all immigration charges...it seems that before he was acquitted many of u thought he was guilty of that too, if u noticed they dropped that because they realized other companies would be just as liable...this is a clear libel! And when will u realize Moshiach needs to come!!! Hashem just needs us to realize that Yidden al pi halacha should defend one another no matter what, even when the govt is againt just ONE! Just thank Hashem they haven't gone after u! It doesn't cost u a cent to be dan lekaf zechus! ”
"He was cleared of all immigration charges..."
It seems that SMR'w defense was that he lacked the intelligence to understand that all his fraudlulent actions was somehow illegal. Thus, it is not surprising that his supporters here lack the intelligence to understand that having already obtained a conviction on charges that will keep this ehrleche yid in prison for up to 1200 years, the government didn't want to waste money on another trial which would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and when he was found guilty, only add more years to his sentence. He was NOT "cleared" of the immigrations charges. The government wisely did not want to waste more money on this yid.
22
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:11 PM Dave Says:
“ He was cleared of all immigration charges...it seems that before he was acquitted many of u thought he was guilty of that too, if u noticed they dropped that because they realized other companies would be just as liable...this is a clear libel! And when will u realize Moshiach needs to come!!! Hashem just needs us to realize that Yidden al pi halacha should defend one another no matter what, even when the govt is againt just ONE! Just thank Hashem they haven't gone after u! It doesn't cost u a cent to be dan lekaf zechus! ”
He wasn't acquitted of any immigration charges.
The government chose to drop the charges (while preserving the right to refile them later) because there was no point in spending the money on prosecutions which wouldn't add to the jail time that SMR is already facing.
23
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:02 PM Yossi Says:
Now you guys tell me that there is not a double standered.
Bernie madof, hasn't worked an hones day in the past 30 years and stole from thousands of charity accounts for his lavish lifestyle, gets to go on bail, no flight risk at all.
SMR a hard working man who was put into bankrupcy by the federal gov. Gets no bail because he is a flight risk.
Both are jews, only 1 is religious.
Eat this you self hating, non tolorent jews.
24
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It finally came to me like bolt of lightning, and my eyes opened, some of the views articulated in VIN that this is not fraud because when he really committed he earnestly intended to pay back every penny with interest. Therefore the intent counts as long SMR intended to payback there is no breaking of the law. Well on the surface you might think that you make sense, but if you just scratch the surface, you would see that your groundless supposition is not logical it is actually funny and it is ridicules. Let’s look at one well-known case and analyze it, Madoff case, you see Madoff was always a respectable guy he was Chairman of the Nasdaq, he give lots of money for charity, when Madoff started the Ponzi scheme he didn’t intended to steal any money the plan was simple he will pay off with new investors, eventually the whole scheme fall apart and you just cannot pay off everyone, that is why it is illegal, now look at Agri, the testimony by SMR defense, was that well SMR never intended to not pay back the bank, well Madoff didn’t either, if you get a loan legally without any fraud, then yes the law will let you go bankrupted without any consequence, because you obtained the money legally, however if you obtain the money with fraud them the bankruptcy protection is not afforded to the culprit, therefore I am tired to listen to the same old excuse, unfortunately for SMR, the law is the law. ”
Shame the bolt did not stay around long enough fro you to keep a clear head.
How can you evem consider comparing this to Madoff, who had no hope of paying anything back. Rubashkins loan would have - and was actually - paid back in a timely manner, if not for the very fact that he was arrested.
In other words, he was attacked for one thing - something that he ultimately was not brought to trial for, and ended up in prison for something that was only caused because of the fact that he was raided in the first place.
There is a mitzva "lo sisna es achicha bilovcha", I am no gaon, but I'm pretty sure this does not mean that you hae to hate your brother 'b'farhesya'...
25
Nov 21, 2009 at 07:35 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The most important fact is to stay clear of conflict with the law and get rid of the notion that there is a vendetta. Don't send all the shiluchim, keep your nose clean and obey the U.S. civil code and hashem will be yerachem ”
If only you would volunteer to post your tax returns and credit card applications for the last few years. I can almost ensure you that some prosecutor, somewhere, would find something to charge you with. I urge you, please DO re-evaluate your opinions carefully.
26
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:53 PM cp Says:
Once again, thank you to all the mamzerim who have fled to Israel over the years who have made these kinds of rulings necessary.
27
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:51 PM Richard Nixon Says:
“ I think enough is enough. How much money has been raised for him? How much Pidyon shvuyim? Its not a mitzvah to raise money for such a character. Let the money rather go to poor Kolel yungerleit who sit and learn Hashem's Torah with intent to KEEP WHAT IT SAYS and not make a mockery of it. Corruption can no longer be condoned by our community. We are holding back moshiach. ”
Stop throwing the geulah into everything. Just keep halachah and the geulah will come. You make it sound like violating the laws of Hashem is only a problem because it delays the geulah.
28
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:39 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I think enough is enough. How much money has been raised for him? How much Pidyon shvuyim? Its not a mitzvah to raise money for such a character. Let the money rather go to poor Kolel yungerleit who sit and learn Hashem's Torah with intent to KEEP WHAT IT SAYS and not make a mockery of it. Corruption can no longer be condoned by our community. We are holding back moshiach. ”
Relax. The only thing you know is reading the media. You dont know if one charge is true. Just be lucky that they didnt pick you.
29
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:33 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I think enough is enough. How much money has been raised for him? How much Pidyon shvuyim? Its not a mitzvah to raise money for such a character. Let the money rather go to poor Kolel yungerleit who sit and learn Hashem's Torah with intent to KEEP WHAT IT SAYS and not make a mockery of it. Corruption can no longer be condoned by our community. We are holding back moshiach. ”
you are sick. this is a person who needs help. its a great mitzvah to help a yid in need . instead you express negativity. do teshuva.! be a mencsh, this could happen to you to!!!
30
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:32 PM MosheG Says:
“ This whole nightmare is going to hurt jews everywhere for years to come as the presumption going forward will be that anyone with a black hat and beard is a "flight risk" to EY. Not only did SMR steal from the banks and all those other crimes he was found guilty of but his actions only serve to confirm all the goiyeshe stereotypes of yiddin. ”
R' Sholom Moredechai is a victim of anti semitism.
He never stole money from the bank.
bank fraud is when a person steals form a bank for personal gain - he never did this.
The check, and bank documents that the government show only prove that R'Shlom is an honest man, his manager left the country and he still deserved to receive his pay.
It doesnt make sense why R' Sholom would want amara to leave the country as he was a skilled worker on the line and was terribly needed for the continuation of training and skilled labor on the line.
31
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:29 PM kadmon Says:
“ This whole nightmare is going to hurt jews everywhere for years to come as the presumption going forward will be that anyone with a black hat and beard is a "flight risk" to EY. Not only did SMR steal from the banks and all those other crimes he was found guilty of but his actions only serve to confirm all the goiyeshe stereotypes of yiddin. ”
Check the facts; he never stole a penny from the banks, the banks just made money off him - that's why the banks actually had no problems.
BTW 90% of credit card owners can be convicted on the same chargers. If you're old enough, I bet they can charge you for the very same "crimes" – and double and triple it like they do so well.
Did you ever hear of all the mortgages that when bad? They too can be convicted on the very same charge!
You are falling in to the very trap the prosecution wants you to fall. You're not only not defending him but also accusing him!
Why don’t you look in to the facts and not get bought in to all the garbage the liberal "olom golam" wants you to believe
32
Nov 21, 2009 at 09:20 PM OMG Says:
“ Shame the bolt did not stay around long enough fro you to keep a clear head.
How can you evem consider comparing this to Madoff, who had no hope of paying anything back. Rubashkins loan would have - and was actually - paid back in a timely manner, if not for the very fact that he was arrested.
In other words, he was attacked for one thing - something that he ultimately was not brought to trial for, and ended up in prison for something that was only caused because of the fact that he was raided in the first place.
There is a mitzva "lo sisna es achicha bilovcha", I am no gaon, but I'm pretty sure this does not mean that you hae to hate your brother 'b'farhesya'...
”
So based on your view, if a police officer sees a car without taillights and stops the car, and decided to do a search of the car and low behold the officer discovers a body, or a kilo heroin in the trunk, based on your pilpul, he should only pay his $50.00 fine the penalty what he was stopped for, but even you would think that because he is not Jewish and didn’t give away some free chickens he should be charged and convicted, but because SMR is religious and gave away some free chickens it is ok, let's sweep it under the rug. I just disagree with your logic.
There is another Mitzvah “you shall not steal”.
33
Nov 21, 2009 at 09:05 PM Anonymous Says:
SMR was very makpid in melave malka, may each one do it in his zechus.
34
Nov 21, 2009 at 09:03 PM OMG Says:
“ "SMR never intended to not pay back the bank"
get the facts right before you makr statements please, ”
i never said that reread my post
35
Nov 21, 2009 at 08:59 PM Anonymous Says:
AGREE with #19, and others who are defending a fellow jew. anyone who fails to see and feel for the sorrow plight of another- regardless of the fact that you keep the law, are missing in the fundamental principles of torah_ahavas yisroel, and of the basic trait of a yid: rachamanim. you have ome serious soul-searching to do and evaluate: what is wrong with me???
36
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:27 PM Emes. Says:
“ This whole nightmare is going to hurt jews everywhere for years to come as the presumption going forward will be that anyone with a black hat and beard is a "flight risk" to EY. Not only did SMR steal from the banks and all those other crimes he was found guilty of but his actions only serve to confirm all the goiyeshe stereotypes of yiddin. ”
Perhaps you will wake and realize that you are in Galus and had they not raided this place in the first place none of this would happen.
Understand that 2 months after the raid there was a brake factory in the midwest that hire 90% illegals and the feds came to raid them, and in stead the owner of the factory made a deal with the feds paid a small fine, and the raid never took place.
The basic difference is that the brake factory was owned by a goy, and the agri was owned by a yid.
so say all you want, rebashikin did things to keep his baot from sinking he did all he can including some shtick.
Lastly, had he filed chapter 11 the morning after the raid, the Gov would look like fools.
37
Nov 21, 2009 at 06:27 PM mogo Says:
“ This whole nightmare is going to hurt jews everywhere for years to come as the presumption going forward will be that anyone with a black hat and beard is a "flight risk" to EY. Not only did SMR steal from the banks and all those other crimes he was found guilty of but his actions only serve to confirm all the goiyeshe stereotypes of yiddin. ”
Not only are you mekael lashon hora, but your spreading it too! B"H, not everyone is as closeminded as you,and not everyone beleives all that is broadcast in the news. It is, however, not suprizing that you were sleeping through laining this shabbos when they lained "Eisav sonei es yaakov". Its not just a folk-legend, the torah is true every day. The goyim don't need any reason to hate us, its in their blood, in their DNA from their granfather, Eisav. Don't waist your life kissing-up, live your life living.
38
Nov 21, 2009 at 09:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So based on your view, if a police officer sees a car without taillights and stops the car, and decided to do a search of the car and low behold the officer discovers a body, or a kilo heroin in the trunk, based on your pilpul, he should only pay his $50.00 fine the penalty what he was stopped for, but even you would think that because he is not Jewish and didn’t give away some free chickens he should be charged and convicted, but because SMR is religious and gave away some free chickens it is ok, let's sweep it under the rug. I just disagree with your logic.
There is another Mitzvah “you shall not steal”.
”
B"H
u r wrong
if cops search car with no permission or no probably cause case is tossed out
39
Nov 21, 2009 at 09:30 PM Think Tank Says:
Reading all of these negative posts is very disturbing. No one is arguing that Mr. Rubashkin did things wrong,however the sentence is very unfair in comparison to the crime. When someone parks by a fire hydrant or drive over the speed limit they're knowingly doing something wrong yet they don't get put away for life. Mr. Rubashkin did bank fraud while under massive pressure to keep his business afloat. He was not in a fraud type of a business where he was committing fraud all day ( like the sub prime mortage companies ), and he didn't do it for greed rather he did it out of pressure to save his skin.
It's absalutly disgusting to compare his misdeeds to Bernie Maddof, or Dweck, who knowingly commited fraud without any intension to ever give the money back.
To have all the Heimishe people agree to this harsh sentence is a disgrace!
Call a spade a spade Rubashkin is not a Tzaddik but by no means does he deserve to be thrown into jail for 1200 years R"L.
40
Nov 21, 2009 at 09:53 PM cool masmid Says:
To see the way SMR has conducted himself throughout the trial and verdict and the aftermath goes to show how special this yid. He is mekadesh sheim shomayim. The outpouring of support and sympathy he has and continues to receive proves the point that this is an innocent man (albeit mistakes were made) that is victim of unprecidented anti-semitism. And to all you (and there are many of you) who can speak so ill towards such a yid who is going through an eis tzoro, to all of you I remind 'osid letein es hadin'- all you out there you will pay, and pay big for these aveiros that you are transgressing on such a scope. Its really beyond my comprehension how so many of you can talk so freely whith such venom and vitriol towards another yid. Its oyaim venoirah and I'm sick to my stomach to see so many out there.
41
Nov 21, 2009 at 10:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So based on your view, if a police officer sees a car without taillights and stops the car, and decided to do a search of the car and low behold the officer discovers a body, or a kilo heroin in the trunk, based on your pilpul, he should only pay his $50.00 fine the penalty what he was stopped for, but even you would think that because he is not Jewish and didn’t give away some free chickens he should be charged and convicted, but because SMR is religious and gave away some free chickens it is ok, let's sweep it under the rug. I just disagree with your logic.
There is another Mitzvah “you shall not steal”.
”
Sickening to read!
Are you comparing finding heroine or a corpse to a misstated bank statement to increase a line of credit?
42
Nov 21, 2009 at 11:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The most important fact is to stay clear of conflict with the law and get rid of the notion that there is a vendetta. Don't send all the shiluchim, keep your nose clean and obey the U.S. civil code and hashem will be yerachem ”
Like the yated wrote this week, if a person would go trough the American court system, and realize the way it is so unfairly setup for litigants these days. The streets would be packed with Riots on every corner.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Let's not forget, In the case at bar, Judge Reade, is doing as she pleases knowingly that she can do so, without any recourse whatsoever. Judges in the united states courts are given way too much discretion these days, and that's the problem. Judges can rule on anything as they please knowing that they will never pay any consequences for there actions, whether they are correctly or wrongly doing so, whatsoever. In fact, since they have so much unjustified discretion, appeal judges are unlikely to overrule any court order. Not to mention the tremendous resources an appeal involves!
I think it's about time for the people to take a more serious look at the powers and rights our government has taken away from us and not give them any-more.
43
Nov 21, 2009 at 11:27 PM OMG Says:
“ Sickening to read!
Are you comparing finding heroine or a corpse to a misstated bank statement to increase a line of credit? ”
Definitely not, I used it for shock value; I see I got to you, one score for me.
44
Nov 22, 2009 at 12:08 AM Anonymous Says:
afen ganev brent der hittel, most of the negative posts written aginst smr were most probably written by those having the most to hide. as for the kolel yungeliet, lets review their applications for public assistance and social services and then judge smr by a koitzoi shel yud. in conclusion, those writing with such vitriol againdt a fellow jew that is in a tzarah need to have their lineage reviewd. I for one wouldn't take such a pgam into my mishpacha.
45
Nov 22, 2009 at 12:16 AM Yid Says:
Reb SMR has my prayers. He is a good man. His detractors do not even rise to the level of his ankle. They lecture about chilul hashem. Throwing your fellow Jew to the wolves is a greater chilul hashem
46
Nov 22, 2009 at 12:27 AM OMG Says:
“ Reb SMR has my prayers. He is a good man. His detractors do not even rise to the level of his ankle. They lecture about chilul hashem. Throwing your fellow Jew to the wolves is a greater chilul hashem ”
SMR was never throwing in front of a train he jumped, do you understand the difference, if not I will help you, just give me a shout.
47
Nov 22, 2009 at 12:22 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Definitely not, I used it for shock value; I see I got to you, one score for me.
”
OMG Please take a break from posting and learn something instead.... I say start with Chofetz Chaim -- Loshon Hara.
48
Nov 21, 2009 at 10:43 PM Disgusted in Montreal Says:
Yiddin, remember what happened in the camps when one Yid handed over another to the reshaim y"s? They all went out in smoke together! Be careful brothers of what you say. And shame on all of you who are OK with letting SMR rot in jail whether he is guilty or not!
49
Nov 22, 2009 at 12:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ So based on your view, if a police officer sees a car without taillights and stops the car, and decided to do a search of the car and low behold the officer discovers a body, or a kilo heroin in the trunk, based on your pilpul, he should only pay his $50.00 fine the penalty what he was stopped for, but even you would think that because he is not Jewish and didn’t give away some free chickens he should be charged and convicted, but because SMR is religious and gave away some free chickens it is ok, let's sweep it under the rug. I just disagree with your logic.
There is another Mitzvah “you shall not steal”.
”
No - based on the pilpul, if someone gets pulled over and the cops take a bank statement out of the car - with the fact that they were being pulled over being questionable to begin with - and go through the bank statement to find an unrelated problem, then yes. I do not think the person will be so harshly punished for that.
Your Jewish/Not-Jewish complex is quite large. Notwithstanding for the fact that any normal person cares about people that are in some way closer to them (Kol Yisrael Areivim.) still no one has said that he should get away with it only because he is frum.
Regarding the Mitzvah 'you should not steal', I think it was established that he never intended to steal (and this was corroborated by almost everyone on the stand).
You have yet to establish 'Lo Sisnah es Achicha'.
50
Nov 22, 2009 at 12:53 AM OMG Says:
“ OMG Please take a break from posting and learn something instead.... I say start with Chofetz Chaim -- Loshon Hara.
”
You see I did learn the problem with you that you didn’t learn, so I will give you a lesson in what constitute lashon hara, and after you read my description you might as well call me Rebbe, because you learned something from me.
Speech is considered to be lashon hara if it says something negative about a person or party, is not previously known to the public, is not seriously intended to correct or improve a negative situation, and most importantly, is true. Statements that fit this description are considered to be lashon hara,
So you fail on a two different points, one- it is known, two- my intention is to improve a bad situation and make sure other Jews understand that what SMR did is illegal, and I have to repeat it again and again because of people like you don’t get it.
51
Nov 22, 2009 at 01:05 AM Anonymous Says:
Agudah have embarked on a much needed public business ethics campaign. Once they are done with that it is time for a massive overhaul of the sentencing guidelines and white collar crime justice system. A country that values the mighty dollar ('not so mighty anymore') more than they value life is a country Jews should fear to live in. How many murderers are walking free?? How many serve a few years and then are free??
I don't advocate a free pass for white collar crime but certainly a 10-yr cap, a limitation on the number of charges a person can be prosecuted for, expanded half_way house jails to let white collar criminals serve half their sentence in half way houses, stronger focus on repayment to reduce sentence length etc.... THERE is a massive need for reform and the OU and AGUDAH should be unashamedly and indeed loudly, publicly URGENTLY advocating strongly for these reforms. THIS IS JUST MADNESS. And we have the power to effect change.Agudah start now.OU start now.
52
Nov 22, 2009 at 01:19 AM OMG Says:
“ No - based on the pilpul, if someone gets pulled over and the cops take a bank statement out of the car - with the fact that they were being pulled over being questionable to begin with - and go through the bank statement to find an unrelated problem, then yes. I do not think the person will be so harshly punished for that.
Your Jewish/Not-Jewish complex is quite large. Notwithstanding for the fact that any normal person cares about people that are in some way closer to them (Kol Yisrael Areivim.) still no one has said that he should get away with it only because he is frum.
Regarding the Mitzvah 'you should not steal', I think it was established that he never intended to steal (and this was corroborated by almost everyone on the stand).
You have yet to establish 'Lo Sisnah es Achicha'. ”
lo sisna es achicha bilovcha, first of all biloycha means your heart, which means concealed if your claim is right that I hate SMR them certainly I say whatever I believe in the open I don’t hide in my heart my views is well known, and why would you say that I hate SMR? I do hate his actions and any actions which a Jew takes which gives fodder for anti-Smites, but you are willing to hide your head in the sand like an ostrich. You might as well call me Rebbe too. Finally based on the latest Supreme Court decision yes the statement could be entered into evidence, so you wrong on that point to, and since when are you God that you judge my heart if I love Jews or not? I am not so sure that you love me, and I am Jewish, and I still love you, even if I believe that you are ill informed, and lack the ability to distinguish between a real excuse and an after the fact when caught excuse.
53
Nov 22, 2009 at 01:18 AM sara Says:
it is stated in the mishna, whoever doesn't mourn for a person in the proper manner is called a callous person. how do any of you have the audacity and the tremendoes Chutzpah to judge Sholom Rubashkin in his current situation? Are any of you sitting in jail and going through what our fellow yid is going through right now? You should be ashamed of yourselves (#1 and 2) for your uncaring and judgemental ways. All in the name of being a self righteous Jew. First work on your selves to have a bit more Ahavas yisroel especially to another Jew who is suffering so rather than judge him.
54
Nov 22, 2009 at 01:55 AM Reb Mordechai Says:
“ So based on your view, if a police officer sees a car without taillights and stops the car, and decided to do a search of the car and low behold the officer discovers a body, or a kilo heroin in the trunk, based on your pilpul, he should only pay his $50.00 fine the penalty what he was stopped for, but even you would think that because he is not Jewish and didn’t give away some free chickens he should be charged and convicted, but because SMR is religious and gave away some free chickens it is ok, let's sweep it under the rug. I just disagree with your logic.
There is another Mitzvah “you shall not steal”.
”
I am not a Boki in all the dinim of shoshen mishpot, but i dont think he even stole al pi din. dont bring in Dina D'malchusa, as it is not clear cut at all. But i will tell you something that Les Man D'palig, you have a chiyuv of Dan L'kav Z'chus.
55
Nov 22, 2009 at 07:23 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Shanda and charpa that Jews are so callous (& frumer yidden) to the plight of a fellow yid. These are people who were famous for their tzedaka and chesed. This whole case smacks of some anti-semitism. However you feel about the whole episode, not to feel for a fellow Jew is an abomination. ”
schanda and charpa that a frumer Yid is summoned to a federal to defend charges. It seems that there is a vendetta which is not true. Vineland chicken operates except they don't want einshlingen the entire chicken and meat business
56
Nov 22, 2009 at 04:33 AM . Says:
Whether you like ot or not, SMR is going to jail for crimes committed against American law. Hakol Biy'dey sho'ma'yim, chutz mi'yir'as sho'ma'yim. Everything is in the hands of heaven, except for the fear of heaven.
This is what Hashem has decreed. Period. By arguing, you are denying ohl malchus shomayim. Obviously, there are plans that Hashen has that you don't know about. There were acts done by individuals that you don't know about.
You should spend your time trying to do right, not defendind someone who did not.
57
Nov 22, 2009 at 04:12 AM DAAS TORAH Says:
Their is a story told an old man who went blind in order for his son to get a blessing from him, many scholars discussed if this is a moral just decision. This was the story of yitzchak one answer given is g-d made yitzchak blind 57 years yitzchak the kodesh of the avos who could not leave EY because he was a korban was considered like a meis a dead man 57 years why so another can benefit(YAKOV)? the answer given is g-d made him blind 57 years in order not to say lashon hara to yitzchak he could have told him eisav was a rasha aand with out making him blind and yakov be mirma getting the brochos but he did not because he did not want to speak lashon horah. What is wrong with us did g-d make us judges of peaple did he give the right to judge am mans character in the court of the goyim he gave a mitzva in of courts to the goyim to juge in just way not to incriminate people on circumstantial evidence. But no we have take their judgement of law the same courts that freed men like oj simpson that give terrorists 16 years in prison and say what their saying is true when we have our own sources who say he was an upright and erliche man. what happened to us the media sixty years ago said
58
Nov 22, 2009 at 02:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ it is stated in the mishna, whoever doesn't mourn for a person in the proper manner is called a callous person. how do any of you have the audacity and the tremendoes Chutzpah to judge Sholom Rubashkin in his current situation? Are any of you sitting in jail and going through what our fellow yid is going through right now? You should be ashamed of yourselves (#1 and 2) for your uncaring and judgemental ways. All in the name of being a self righteous Jew. First work on your selves to have a bit more Ahavas yisroel especially to another Jew who is suffering so rather than judge him. ”
First of all, he's in prison, not dead.
Secondly, no one here is judging him. That was done by a jury and he was found guilty.
And what is the suffering you are crying about? being punished for a crime he committed? Sorry, I don't believe in the "I'm frum so I get out of jail free" card.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Next case!
59
Nov 22, 2009 at 02:05 AM OMG Says:
“ it is stated in the mishna, whoever doesn't mourn for a person in the proper manner is called a callous person. how do any of you have the audacity and the tremendoes Chutzpah to judge Sholom Rubashkin in his current situation? Are any of you sitting in jail and going through what our fellow yid is going through right now? You should be ashamed of yourselves (#1 and 2) for your uncaring and judgemental ways. All in the name of being a self righteous Jew. First work on your selves to have a bit more Ahavas yisroel especially to another Jew who is suffering so rather than judge him. ”
So based on you logic, a woman of the streets should never be judge, because you never walked the streets, and I don’t think that mishna speaks to this situation, it is more to a sin between God and human not between people, if you steal you are judged and you need to payback. They final is that in same post that you’re extolling the virtue of not judging a Jew, you are willing to judge me, who is not facing hard jail time , is today Purim we might as well start singing Shoshanat Yaakov, you could call me Rebbe too
60
Nov 22, 2009 at 09:53 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I have no intention of exchanging my life style for Mr. Rubashkin.
1) I do not hide under the excuse that I am a Rabbi and therefore I do not knoe how to run a business (or know how to read a contract for $35 million)..
2) I do not write fake meat invoices out to clothing stores.
3) I do not tell my workers to run and hide in Erez Yisroel so that you do not testify against me.
4) I do not give tzedaka out of money that should go to pay off workers or vendors that I bought things from.
What values are you teaching your children? That it is OK to cheat and steal as long as you give tzedaka and funnel someone elses money into a Yeshiva? ”
Really?????
1) Do you help your fellow jew with your salary? I bet you do not.. you sit in your smug little frum enclave and judge others- disgusting
2) Talk to your childrens yeshiva or school about false invoices- then make statements
3)do not ever judge another Yid until you are in his shoes.... At least he spent his life doing something positive and living a not so glamorous life in Postville- where do you live?
4) Do you give Tzedaka at all? do you worry about anyone but yourself. Apparently you were not raised that way. Most yidden only worry about themselves unfortunately..
61
Nov 22, 2009 at 09:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The government also presented evidence that SMR tampered with evidence and committed bank fraud while indicted before the trial. What a wonderful thing for a Ben Torah to do. ”
You my friend are so Innocent? Talk to your accountant or your local Yeshiva or even your local Shul, no immigrants working there huh? But remember SMR at least helped thousands of his fellow yidden- do you?
62
Nov 22, 2009 at 09:45 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Enough with Rubashkin...every day another story...its time to move on to the next yiddeshe ganof. Lets focus on jews who do good for the community rather than obcessing about every detail of those who have caused such a chilul hashem. ”
You My friend are a "Soneh" Yisrael. Do you even know who Rubashkin is, and how much he helped his fellow Yidden? Are you self-righteously sitting in your frum community living the good life, and judging another Yid? Shame on you. Trust me the Aibishhter loves Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin's Maasim Tovim more than your self righteous hatred_ You should be ashamed.....
63
Nov 22, 2009 at 10:58 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Whether you like ot or not, SMR is going to jail for crimes committed against American law. Hakol Biy'dey sho'ma'yim, chutz mi'yir'as sho'ma'yim. Everything is in the hands of heaven, except for the fear of heaven.
This is what Hashem has decreed. Period. By arguing, you are denying ohl malchus shomayim. Obviously, there are plans that Hashen has that you don't know about. There were acts done by individuals that you don't know about.
You should spend your time trying to do right, not defendind someone who did not. ”
The Holocaust was also Hashem's decree. Does that mean we have to be quiet about it?!
64
Nov 22, 2009 at 10:42 AM Anonymous Says:
It is utterly disheartening to read the comments of those who claim " just follow the law" and nothing bad will happen to you. These people have obviously never run businesses the size Rubashkin did and are not aware of the difficulties corrupt government official post in your way. At my business, an inspector basically forced me to purchase some health product he sold as a side business, explaining why it would so benefit us. He plied me with informational catalogues and tapes. Naively, I told him I do not use health suplements. Of course. our paper work was held up and he frequently came by the business to remind me how wonderful and helpful his product is. He called me at my home at 10:30 pm shortly after I had a baby to bring up the subject. We finally asked another business owner why he was pursuing us so relentlessly about his health supplements. "Fools, don;t you realise that's the only way he will give you approval?"
I am gald to say this inspector is no longer working in civil service job. But he sold a great deal of his questionable health supplement while he was at it!
65
Nov 22, 2009 at 05:04 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Really?????
1) Do you help your fellow jew with your salary? I bet you do not.. you sit in your smug little frum enclave and judge others- disgusting
2) Talk to your childrens yeshiva or school about false invoices- then make statements
3)do not ever judge another Yid until you are in his shoes.... At least he spent his life doing something positive and living a not so glamorous life in Postville- where do you live?
4) Do you give Tzedaka at all? do you worry about anyone but yourself. Apparently you were not raised that way. Most yidden only worry about themselves unfortunately.. ”
Everything shown in the post was true and brought out in the trial. You are guessng and grasping at straws. Do you want to tell your kids that tatty stole money but you don't care because the tzedaka was well worth it?? You kid learns in Kolel, but a store went broke in Philadelphia because Rubashkin pushed him out of business because of greed? Was that well worth the trade off?
We were all in his shoes. He wanted bigger shoes and now he has to pay the price. Not me. I didn't succumb to greed. He did.
What positive did he do? Make the goyim in Postville hate him because he brought illegals to town to ruin it? Did he go against the takana of owning a slaughterhouse AND a kosher provision plant? Takanot are there for our protection. Even Reb Moshe signed that takana. See what happens when you spit on our laws and make new ones that suit youself.
Where is the ahavas yisroel that you are preaching of? Better look in the morror to see the real rasha
66
Nov 23, 2009 at 05:47 AM So There!! Says:
“ Everything shown in the post was true and brought out in the trial. You are guessng and grasping at straws. Do you want to tell your kids that tatty stole money but you don't care because the tzedaka was well worth it?? You kid learns in Kolel, but a store went broke in Philadelphia because Rubashkin pushed him out of business because of greed? Was that well worth the trade off?
We were all in his shoes. He wanted bigger shoes and now he has to pay the price. Not me. I didn't succumb to greed. He did.
What positive did he do? Make the goyim in Postville hate him because he brought illegals to town to ruin it? Did he go against the takana of owning a slaughterhouse AND a kosher provision plant? Takanot are there for our protection. Even Reb Moshe signed that takana. See what happens when you spit on our laws and make new ones that suit youself.
Where is the ahavas yisroel that you are preaching of? Better look in the morror to see the real rasha ”
That takana was made in the 1920's. It never applied to Chasidim, only Litvaks. The Agudas Harabanim were Litveshe, Reb Moshe was a Litvak and we don't have to belittle ourselves to stupid Litvashe takonim.
67
Nov 23, 2009 at 03:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It finally came to me like bolt of lightning, and my eyes opened, some of the views articulated in VIN that this is not fraud because when he really committed he earnestly intended to pay back every penny with interest. Therefore the intent counts as long SMR intended to payback there is no breaking of the law. Well on the surface you might think that you make sense, but if you just scratch the surface, you would see that your groundless supposition is not logical it is actually funny and it is ridicules. Let’s look at one well-known case and analyze it, Madoff case, you see Madoff was always a respectable guy he was Chairman of the Nasdaq, he give lots of money for charity, when Madoff started the Ponzi scheme he didn’t intended to steal any money the plan was simple he will pay off with new investors, eventually the whole scheme fall apart and you just cannot pay off everyone, that is why it is illegal, now look at Agri, the testimony by SMR defense, was that well SMR never intended to not pay back the bank, well Madoff didn’t either, if you get a loan legally without any fraud, then yes the law will let you go bankrupted without any consequence, because you obtained the money legally, however if you obtain the money with fraud them the bankruptcy protection is not afforded to the culprit, therefore I am tired to listen to the same old excuse, unfortunately for SMR, the law is the law. ”
If your tired of listening rather reading, maybe you should take a break for a while because we really have a problem with this whole situation. The same people who where overzealous and charged the immigrants with fraudulent inappropriate and knowingly incorrect charges are just as aggressively charging SMR with outlandish and inappropriate charges. In addition just as the immigrants were mistreated and mishandled so has SMR.
Furthermore as proven, there were no problems neither with the bank nor with the suppliers UNTIL ICE came in inappropriately and destroyed the plant. It was proven that SMR & Agri were already working with immigration attorneys to solve the immigration issues. The HR Personnel were trained on how to spot phony information on applications after being warned not to hire illegals. The proof included their own "SPY" who couldn't get hired after two tries with phony numbers until he actually provided a proper application.
The Dept of Labor was already conducting an investigation and the Rubashkins would have worked with them as well. Although they would have been fined and maybe even charged for whatever is in the power of the Dept of Labor.
68
Nov 23, 2009 at 05:13 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So based on your view, if a police officer sees a car without taillights and stops the car, and decided to do a search of the car and low behold the officer discovers a body, or a kilo heroin in the trunk, based on your pilpul, he should only pay his $50.00 fine the penalty what he was stopped for, but even you would think that because he is not Jewish and didn’t give away some free chickens he should be charged and convicted, but because SMR is religious and gave away some free chickens it is ok, let's sweep it under the rug. I just disagree with your logic.
There is another Mitzvah “you shall not steal”.
”
No matter how many times you twist it and turn it "SMR" did not steal!.. He was paying the bank back on the loan and the bank had no problem with it. Stealing is an intentional act, it is a premeditated act, it would mean that SMR rather AGRI took out the loan with the intention of NOT paying it back. But according to the bank he was indeed making payments to the bank and would have continued to do so if the FEDS did not cause him to become incapable of doing so.
Your mashal is inaccurate. The cops who stop a car for lights would not have the right to search the car they would need a warrant to do so. So there would be legal complications with whatever they found in the car. Here to, there was a warrant to enter the property to conduct the search for illegal immigrants. They did not have a warrant to search for anything else.
69
Nov 23, 2009 at 04:55 PM Anonymous Says:
“ What are you talking about? READ THE GOVERNMENT PAPERS!
The prosecutor dropped that case because he will be punished enough for the fraud charges? What shtus are you going to tell in shul on Shabbos? Another lie and another lie? This will bring Moshiach? The Rebbe would have called in the Rubashkins and set them straight on sheker and emes. ”
They basically "postponed the hearing" until such time as they choose to call it up again because they know they can't win it. They have no witnesses and the defense have the Congressional hearings to prove that THEY screwed up. The witnesses - the immigrants - were jailed for 5 months and then deported. The Prosecution and ICE bungled the whole thing and lied. They lied in their charges, they lied in their script, they lied to the courts involved in the fast tracking. They denied the immigrants their rights as human beings and treated them like animals as they have treated SMR. Let's put it this way, as much as everyone complained about Mr. Cook not requesting special treatment to address SMR's needs when he was taken into custody, so too should everyone complain that the JUDGE did not order the officers to be aware of the defendants religious requirements as she knew good and well what they were and as since he had been confined for more than a year previously the court was very well aware of his rights and needs vis a vis jail. SHE should have called the warden in advanced and let him know what to expect and to please accommodate this high profile individual.
70
Nov 23, 2009 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ It finally came to me like bolt of lightning, and my eyes opened, some of the views articulated in VIN that this is not fraud because when he really committed he earnestly intended to pay back every penny with interest. Therefore the intent counts as long SMR intended to payback there is no breaking of the law. Well on the surface you might think that you make sense, but if you just scratch the surface, you would see that your groundless supposition is not logical it is actually funny and it is ridicules. Let’s look at one well-known case and analyze it, Madoff case, you see Madoff was always a respectable guy he was Chairman of the Nasdaq, he give lots of money for charity, when Madoff started the Ponzi scheme he didn’t intended to steal any money the plan was simple he will pay off with new investors, eventually the whole scheme fall apart and you just cannot pay off everyone, that is why it is illegal, now look at Agri, the testimony by SMR defense, was that well SMR never intended to not pay back the bank, well Madoff didn’t either, if you get a loan legally without any fraud, then yes the law will let you go bankrupted without any consequence, because you obtained the money legally, however if you obtain the money with fraud them the bankruptcy protection is not afforded to the culprit, therefore I am tired to listen to the same old excuse, unfortunately for SMR, the law is the law. ”
Sorry Part #2 Since the prosecution in conjunction with ICE were so enthused and ambitious to the point that they planted their spy within, and unlike the Dept of Labor were out to indite not to correct they grabbed at straws and did whatever they could to force the plant into bankruptcy causing the loss to the bank and creditors. You keep looking at what the plant did when forced to grab at straws to keep afloat. He took the wrong advice from his employees who were hired for their knowledge and expertise.
Whether we are a huge business or small, whether we employ our own on staff accountant or hire out, we trust and rely on their advice and usually follow it. WE are responsible if they are wrong, but that is the norm. Melzer pleaded guilty and was indicted. Billmeyer pleaded and was indicted. He is guilty for following their advice and for trusting them. Eventually they would have also been caught by the Dept of Labor and at the very least been fined and lost their jobs. YOUR inflexibility infers that SMR knowingly and predictably planned his own downfall and it is hurtful to those of us who know him and know it is not true.
Injustice!!!
71
Nov 23, 2009 at 06:12 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Everything shown in the post was true and brought out in the trial. You are guessng and grasping at straws. Do you want to tell your kids that tatty stole money but you don't care because the tzedaka was well worth it?? You kid learns in Kolel, but a store went broke in Philadelphia because Rubashkin pushed him out of business because of greed? Was that well worth the trade off?
We were all in his shoes. He wanted bigger shoes and now he has to pay the price. Not me. I didn't succumb to greed. He did.
What positive did he do? Make the goyim in Postville hate him because he brought illegals to town to ruin it? Did he go against the takana of owning a slaughterhouse AND a kosher provision plant? Takanot are there for our protection. Even Reb Moshe signed that takana. See what happens when you spit on our laws and make new ones that suit youself.
Where is the ahavas yisroel that you are preaching of? Better look in the morror to see the real rasha ”
SMR did not own the slaughterhouse, he managed it.
Tzadikel, let me ask you this...did you ever ask the yeshiva to give you a donation receipt for a tuition payment? That's illegal. Did you ask a parent to make a tuition payment for you and accept a donation receipt? That's illegal. Have you received a donation receipt at a dinner for the entire amount of your donation? That's illegal. Do you have cleaning help at home? Do you pay her cash? Do you pay workers comp for her? Did you give her a W4 to fill out? Do you withhold taxes and file ss for her or give her a 1099? if not that's illegal.
What the Spinka rav did was totally illegal and he is not the only one and he did it knowingly and willingly and was not forced by any means like SMR, and we are talking way, way, way more money involved. Do you think he will be facing 1,200 years?
Did you hear one citizen of Postville complain? Maybe you are not such a Tzadik after all. Maybe YOU should make sure your children are not subject to your opinions.
72
Nov 23, 2009 at 05:38 PM Anonymous Says:
“ You see I did learn the problem with you that you didn’t learn, so I will give you a lesson in what constitute lashon hara, and after you read my description you might as well call me Rebbe, because you learned something from me.
Speech is considered to be lashon hara if it says something negative about a person or party, is not previously known to the public, is not seriously intended to correct or improve a negative situation, and most importantly, is true. Statements that fit this description are considered to be lashon hara,
So you fail on a two different points, one- it is known, two- my intention is to improve a bad situation and make sure other Jews understand that what SMR did is illegal, and I have to repeat it again and again because of people like you don’t get it.
”
As you say the statements have to be true, and unfortunately what YOU spout is true to you but not necessarily true. Unless YOU are SMR or in his head, YOU don't know what he intentionally did, what he really did himself, or what given as false witness and testimony against him. YOU chose to believe what YOU chose to believe and accepted it as truth and fact. But YOU don't know for sure because YOU did not see any evidence yourself nor did you in fact speak to SMR or the witnesses who in fact are liars themselves as they admitted and were indicted for. So what YOU see as truth WE see as fiction and therefore it is in fact Loshon Horah.
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Nov 23, 2009 at 08:52 PM Anonymous Says:
“ SMR did not own the slaughterhouse, he managed it.
Tzadikel, let me ask you this...did you ever ask the yeshiva to give you a donation receipt for a tuition payment? That's illegal. Did you ask a parent to make a tuition payment for you and accept a donation receipt? That's illegal. Have you received a donation receipt at a dinner for the entire amount of your donation? That's illegal. Do you have cleaning help at home? Do you pay her cash? Do you pay workers comp for her? Did you give her a W4 to fill out? Do you withhold taxes and file ss for her or give her a 1099? if not that's illegal.
What the Spinka rav did was totally illegal and he is not the only one and he did it knowingly and willingly and was not forced by any means like SMR, and we are talking way, way, way more money involved. Do you think he will be facing 1,200 years?
Did you hear one citizen of Postville complain? Maybe you are not such a Tzadik after all. Maybe YOU should make sure your children are not subject to your opinions. ”
I'm not the one that was caught. SMR was. And even if I did those things that you mentioned - so what? I did not do it 500 times. In public. then deny it. Then take money that was supposed to go to tzedaka and call it my personal pidyon shevuyim fund. What Chutzpa. And if you condone it, shame on you.
Basically, you are saying that SMR was allowed to do it because you did it. That did not pass when you were a kid and it seems that you and SMR never grew up. .
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Nov 24, 2009 at 02:10 AM Anonymous Says:
“ No matter how many times you twist it and turn it "SMR" did not steal!.. He was paying the bank back on the loan and the bank had no problem with it. Stealing is an intentional act, it is a premeditated act, it would mean that SMR rather AGRI took out the loan with the intention of NOT paying it back. But according to the bank he was indeed making payments to the bank and would have continued to do so if the FEDS did not cause him to become incapable of doing so.
Your mashal is inaccurate. The cops who stop a car for lights would not have the right to search the car they would need a warrant to do so. So there would be legal complications with whatever they found in the car. Here to, there was a warrant to enter the property to conduct the search for illegal immigrants. They did not have a warrant to search for anything else. ”
Like I said before Madoff also paid off the investors who requested their money however if simultaneously everybody asked back for their money Madoff couldn’t pay back, the same with Agri they were able to pay the interest on time but when the bank called the loan they couldn’t pay back, why not because the Fed’s arrested 387 people no because 35.4 M dollars of invoices was fraud, and the bank gave Agri the loan against the receivables, but if you don’t sell and claim that you did and the bank gave you money against that sale, that is stealing, not credit line to fund operation, no this credit line was against pervious sales, what else do I have to tell you, you must be inflicted with BFS your eyes will not open without a struggle. I know that a good lawyer would have a field day defending the guy who had corpse, but you know what the police will claim that when they stood at the trunk to check the lights they smelled the odor and I want to see which Judge would exclude that evidence.
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Nov 24, 2009 at 02:16 AM OMG Says:
“ As you say the statements have to be true, and unfortunately what YOU spout is true to you but not necessarily true. Unless YOU are SMR or in his head, YOU don't know what he intentionally did, what he really did himself, or what given as false witness and testimony against him. YOU chose to believe what YOU chose to believe and accepted it as truth and fact. But YOU don't know for sure because YOU did not see any evidence yourself nor did you in fact speak to SMR or the witnesses who in fact are liars themselves as they admitted and were indicted for. So what YOU see as truth WE see as fiction and therefore it is in fact Loshon Horah. ”
So therefore you must agree that because I truly believe that it is true that SMR lied to bank when he requested an advance against receivables which never sold, and God knows that I truly believe that, therefore I am not speaking Loshon Horah in Gods eyes, and what in your eyes/view who cares as long I am ok with God.
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Nov 24, 2009 at 05:39 AM Anonymous Says:
“ No matter how many times you twist it and turn it "SMR" did not steal!.. He was paying the bank back on the loan and the bank had no problem with it. Stealing is an intentional act, it is a premeditated act, it would mean that SMR rather AGRI took out the loan with the intention of NOT paying it back. But according to the bank he was indeed making payments to the bank and would have continued to do so if the FEDS did not cause him to become incapable of doing so.
Your mashal is inaccurate. The cops who stop a car for lights would not have the right to search the car they would need a warrant to do so. So there would be legal complications with whatever they found in the car. Here to, there was a warrant to enter the property to conduct the search for illegal immigrants. They did not have a warrant to search for anything else. ”
No matter how many times you twist it and turn it "SMR" did steal!..
Taking the $$ meant for the bank and sending it to the yeshiva or the grocery store IS stealing. Writing out invoices to a clothing store in order to get more $$ is stealing.
His problems started long before the raid. Blaming the feds is stupid. He is responsible for all tha goes on in his plant. From a Torah point of view and from an American legal point of view.
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Nov 24, 2009 at 09:44 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Like I said before Madoff also paid off the investors who requested their money however if simultaneously everybody asked back for their money Madoff couldn’t pay back, the same with Agri they were able to pay the interest on time but when the bank called the loan they couldn’t pay back, why not because the Fed’s arrested 387 people no because 35.4 M dollars of invoices was fraud, and the bank gave Agri the loan against the receivables, but if you don’t sell and claim that you did and the bank gave you money against that sale, that is stealing, not credit line to fund operation, no this credit line was against pervious sales, what else do I have to tell you, you must be inflicted with BFS your eyes will not open without a struggle. I know that a good lawyer would have a field day defending the guy who had corpse, but you know what the police will claim that when they stood at the trunk to check the lights they smelled the odor and I want to see which Judge would exclude that evidence. ”
You are not making any sense. When the bank called the loan the money was being used as the suppliers said the bills were always paid in full, And here is something else YOU keep forgetting. Before a bank would even consider floating a $35m loan they have to do their own due diligence. That means they go down to the place of business and inspect. They also research the type of business so they evaluate their risk. It is public knowledge and public record that raids were conducted on other slaughterhouses for illegal immigrants and therefore that was a possibility here too as well. However, the risk was minimized by the outcome of those raids.
In addition, the bank does a credit check among their suppliers to see if they are honest, if they pay their creditors back on a timely fashion, how large or small their credit limits are, etc. A bank loan is not based on receivables alone. To keep saying that is absolute foolishness and an attempt to brainwash the public to believe the hateful things you spout. The bank loan was a respectable business transaction that would not have been interrupted if ICE didn't freeze and crack it up. SMR didn't steal and the bank never said so.
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Nov 24, 2009 at 10:41 AM OMG Says:
“ You are not making any sense. When the bank called the loan the money was being used as the suppliers said the bills were always paid in full, And here is something else YOU keep forgetting. Before a bank would even consider floating a $35m loan they have to do their own due diligence. That means they go down to the place of business and inspect. They also research the type of business so they evaluate their risk. It is public knowledge and public record that raids were conducted on other slaughterhouses for illegal immigrants and therefore that was a possibility here too as well. However, the risk was minimized by the outcome of those raids.
In addition, the bank does a credit check among their suppliers to see if they are honest, if they pay their creditors back on a timely fashion, how large or small their credit limits are, etc. A bank loan is not based on receivables alone. To keep saying that is absolute foolishness and an attempt to brainwash the public to believe the hateful things you spout. The bank loan was a respectable business transaction that would not have been interrupted if ICE didn't freeze and crack it up. SMR didn't steal and the bank never said so. ”
No matter what you say and how you try to twist the facts of this story, the truth will still be the truth, this was not a loan in a sense when you get an open credit line i.e. you need money you get it from your line of credit, no this was if you sell your product the bank will give you excess to your credit line that is what is called against receivables, the fact is that the second SMR provided the bank with a phony invoice they money would never be repaid because it would never come in, and the money was not used for new supplies, because the never sold the product to begin with, there was no need to replenish the supplies. And furthermore, the prove is in the outcome if it is true that the money was invested in supplies, then why didn’t Agri just send $750,000 of product to the CA meat house before or after going bankrupted, simple they did not have a $750,000 of product/inventory to ship, SMR stole it and diverted the money for operational expenses, and giving charity on the banks account. Lastly no matter with all your ridicules excuses, you cannot explain away the simple fact that if you take money from the bank against a phony sale eventually you will not be able to pay back a full loan if the loan is called, and in a loan against receivable, the bank relies on the receivable, to be paid back in full, that is why it is called stealing.
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Nov 24, 2009 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ No matter how many times you twist it and turn it "SMR" did steal!..
Taking the $$ meant for the bank and sending it to the yeshiva or the grocery store IS stealing. Writing out invoices to a clothing store in order to get more $$ is stealing.
His problems started long before the raid. Blaming the feds is stupid. He is responsible for all tha goes on in his plant. From a Torah point of view and from an American legal point of view.
”
Where do YOU have proof that he took the money meant for the bank and sent it to the yeshiva or grocery store? From a Torah point of view that's Loshan Horah.
Did you work for SMR or Agri? What do you know about his problems? How stupid is that statement? From a Torah point of view and a legal point a view hearsay is inadmissible.
Furthermore, if you took the time to review the Congressional Hearings and reviews of the raid you will understand why WE absolutely have taanas to the Feds and why we blame them.
80
Nov 24, 2009 at 12:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Where do YOU have proof that he took the money meant for the bank and sent it to the yeshiva or grocery store? From a Torah point of view that's Loshan Horah.
Did you work for SMR or Agri? What do you know about his problems? How stupid is that statement? From a Torah point of view and a legal point a view hearsay is inadmissible.
Furthermore, if you took the time to review the Congressional Hearings and reviews of the raid you will understand why WE absolutely have taanas to the Feds and why we blame them. ”
When SMR deposited checks meant for bank in the accounts of the grocery store, and yeshiva, that is stealing got it, a child should understand this. And as I mentioned before that Loshan Horah doesn’t apply in this instance
81
Nov 24, 2009 at 12:32 PM OMG Says:
“ Where do YOU have proof that he took the money meant for the bank and sent it to the yeshiva or grocery store? From a Torah point of view that's Loshan Horah.
Did you work for SMR or Agri? What do you know about his problems? How stupid is that statement? From a Torah point of view and a legal point a view hearsay is inadmissible.
Furthermore, if you took the time to review the Congressional Hearings and reviews of the raid you will understand why WE absolutely have taanas to the Feds and why we blame them. ”
As matter of fact I did read every word of the 300 pages of the hearings, and I agree with every democrat who was against the Bush’s DOJ and homeland security raid it was all political payback for the right-wingers who were against amnesty for the illegal’s, but that doesn’t belie the fact that SMR store the banks money, why cannot you understand that.
82
Nov 24, 2009 at 04:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ As matter of fact I did read every word of the 300 pages of the hearings, and I agree with every democrat who was against the Bush’s DOJ and homeland security raid it was all political payback for the right-wingers who were against amnesty for the illegal’s, but that doesn’t belie the fact that SMR store the banks money, why cannot you understand that. ”
Because I don't see it your way. For whatever reason Hashem wants me to see things the way I do and to have the faith and bitachon that I do in SMR and the Rubashkin family that is why. For whatever reason you refuse to see how ICE and the prosecution was out to bury SMR, you are blind to the faults of that side and no argument will sway you. Once again I say to you, believe what you want. Hashem will determine the outcome according to what WE do here in our own histadlus. He has already shown us many areas that need investigation and many out and out rishus points such as the 1920 law and the fact that the jury was not permitted to hear the relevance or rather irrelevance of that law.
83
Nov 24, 2009 at 04:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ When SMR deposited checks meant for bank in the accounts of the grocery store, and yeshiva, that is stealing got it, a child should understand this. And as I mentioned before that Loshan Horah doesn’t apply in this instance ”
Please show me where it was proven that the money went to the accounts of the grocery store and the yeshiva! Any child can understand that request as well. And please don't pasken for me, I am quite sure you are not a Rav or a dayan.
84
Nov 25, 2009 at 01:45 AM OMG Says:
“ Please show me where it was proven that the money went to the accounts of the grocery store and the yeshiva! Any child can understand that request as well. And please don't pasken for me, I am quite sure you are not a Rav or a dayan. ”
Are you suffering from memory loss even a child who followed the trial would tell you that SMR took checks which were for payment for the meat, which he legally suppose to deposit into a special joint account with the bank and Agri, so the bank get paid back and he deposited that into the yeshiva and kosher store accounts, and why would I pasken for you, I could lead you to the water but I can’t make you drink, it is your problem not mine.
85
Nov 25, 2009 at 01:54 AM OMG Says:
“ Because I don't see it your way. For whatever reason Hashem wants me to see things the way I do and to have the faith and bitachon that I do in SMR and the Rubashkin family that is why. For whatever reason you refuse to see how ICE and the prosecution was out to bury SMR, you are blind to the faults of that side and no argument will sway you. Once again I say to you, believe what you want. Hashem will determine the outcome according to what WE do here in our own histadlus. He has already shown us many areas that need investigation and many out and out rishus points such as the 1920 law and the fact that the jury was not permitted to hear the relevance or rather irrelevance of that law. ”
Well I don’t think that Hashem wants you to belief anything in reference to this case, believe me that this case is not one of 13 principles of faith, and you see the Judge made the right decision, the jury found SMR not guilty on this obscured 1920 law and as matter of fact during the trial I predicted that SMR will be found guilty on all the other charges, except the five related to not paying the sellers on time because that made sense.
86
Nov 25, 2009 at 01:54 AM OMG Says:
“ Because I don't see it your way. For whatever reason Hashem wants me to see things the way I do and to have the faith and bitachon that I do in SMR and the Rubashkin family that is why. For whatever reason you refuse to see how ICE and the prosecution was out to bury SMR, you are blind to the faults of that side and no argument will sway you. Once again I say to you, believe what you want. Hashem will determine the outcome according to what WE do here in our own histadlus. He has already shown us many areas that need investigation and many out and out rishus points such as the 1920 law and the fact that the jury was not permitted to hear the relevance or rather irrelevance of that law. ”
Well I don’t think that Hashem wants you to belief anything in reference to this case, believe me that this case is not one of 13 principles of faith, and you see the Judge made the right decision, the jury found SMR not guilty on this obscured 1920 law and as matter of fact during the trial I predicted that SMR will be found guilty on all the other charges, except the five related to not paying the sellers on time because that made sense.
87
Nov 25, 2009 at 05:35 AM aizhu chochom Says:
rabosai klal yisroel do yourselves a favour we are in galus deep in it talking about a man wether what he did was right or wrong is not going to help end the galus just make it longer either way daven for rmr s rubashkin after all he is one of our brothers and right or wrong its is all loshan hora because there is no toeles were not going to help anyone with this slander so please stop writing it