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Borough Park, NY - Bobov Dispute Heads Into Final Stage At Din Torah, Not Secular Court

Published on: November 23, 2009 08:32 AM
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Borough Park, NY - They are known as the Bobov 48 and Bobov 45. And word on the street is that the Bobov Din Torah will finally come to an end this winter. If so, it was a Din Torah that will have lasted four long years.

The Din Torah, of course, is between Rav Ben Tzion, the second son of Rav Shlomo and the half-brother of Reb Naftuli, the leader of Bobov 48th Street and Rav Mordechai Duvid Unger of Bobov of 45th Street, the son-in-law of the previous Rebbe Reb Naftuli.

The Bais Din was a hand-picked Zavla Bais Din of Five Town . Zavla stands for Zeh Borer Lo Echad – each side chooses one representative and those representatives choose a third objective judge.

In this case three objective judges were chosen. The two initial representatives are Rabbi Zalman Gross of the 48th Street Bobov and Dayan Yitzchok Berger from Manchester representing the 45th Street Bobov. The three neutral Dayanim are (1) the Chatkover Ruv, Rabbi Yoztchok Zelbereich, (2) Rabbi Avrohom Burich Rosenberg, (3) Rabbi Yechiel Baabad, the Tartikover Rav.

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One of the reasons that the issue has taken so long is that the Bais Din meets sporadically.

The issues that the Bais Din has been ruling upon are numerous. The number one issue is whether there is a concept of “inheritance” - Yerusha at all in regard to a Chasidic dynasty or does the Chassidus belong to all the members of the Kehillah. If it is the latter, then the repercussions are that there is no Yerusha to talk of at all. This would effect the institutions, the positions, the power to appoint people in positions, and of course title to the real properties.

If the Bais Din rules that there is indeed a concept of Yerushah, then the question revolves around who, in fact does inherit in this specific case. Reb Naftuli, the most recent Bobover Rebbe who passed away, left only two daughters and no sons. Are the sons-in-law next in line for inheritance? Or does it revert to the half-brother of the previous Rebbe? The third issue involves whether there was a “will” – a tzavaah of the previous Bobover Rebbe Reb Shlomo, and whether or not that Tzavaah is binding. No one is arguing that there was no written Tzavaah – the question is was there an oral one? The oral one, if it was actually transmitted was only witnessed by one person, and that too is an issue for the five Dayanim.

The entire episode is one of great frustration for many members of the Bobov community and beyond. The plus side is that despite all the rancor, both sides have remained in Bais Din and have not taken their disputes to secular court like has occurred within the Satmar dynasty dispute.
Why the urgency, now? It has been conjectured that the economy has had an enormous impact and has created pressure to settle some of the outstanding issues as soon as possible. The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn. It has been predicted that a final conclusion will be reached by February.


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Read Comments (383)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:41 AM Anonymous Says:

they dont get a shkoiach for not going to court. secondly noone wins in a machlokes...
i can already see the end of the bobov chasidus....

2

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:01 AM Boro Park Chusid Says:

What an amazing sory.
If not for the Five Towns, how would the people in Boro Park get the news of Bobov??

3

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:00 AM Anonymous Says:

I thought they DID try to take it to secular court, but were asked by the judge to go to Beis Din instead.

4

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Your info is wrong. Coming to an end? Ha. It was just pushed off for 2 months

5

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:57 AM michali Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

they dont get a shkoiach for not going to court. secondly noone wins in a machlokes...
i can already see the end of the bobov chasidus....

It would only end, C"v, if the Bobov community allows the machklokes to fester. Kudos to them for not allowing it to go to secular court.

6

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

they dont get a shkoiach for not going to court. secondly noone wins in a machlokes...
i can already see the end of the bobov chasidus....

As a bobover chasid I can tell you bobover chasidus died the 12th of adar. 2005 both of these leaders can't compare not to the father in law nor to his half brother they were kedoshim

7

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:54 AM Anonymous Says:

What happens after the ruling? The defeated rebbe pack his bags and looks for a different job?

8

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:53 AM RHULH Says:

"The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn"

I think this should say 45

10

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:50 AM Anonymous Says:

They WAS in court the judge simply send them to din torah

11

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:44 AM Anonymous Says:

The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn. It has been predicted that a final conclusion will be reached by February.
just the oppisite 45 th bobov was hit hard

12

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:54 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:

A number of clarifications:
The dispute was originally in court, and it was a frum judge that pushed them to go to din torah.
The article also leaves out the issue of how to count who is in the kehilla, and who is considered to belong to which side.
There is also an issue of investments made with money from and using the non profit status of UBI-United Bobov International, is privately owned or belongs to Bobov.
There is also a question of what status 'Rav Hatzuir-the young Rebbe' means.
As for comparing it to Satmar, while Satmar chose to fight in public, on a personal lever there is much more harmony. Families weren't torn apart, shiduchim weren't cancelled, and the mosdos worked together behind the scenes.

13

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:38 AM formally Says:

I give credit to Bobov for keeping it civil and doing as they preach

14

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:00 AM knowitall Says:

I find Bobov to be a very pragmatic and progressive Chassidus. The young men who ought to be working are working and supporting their families. I know many young men who have taken college courses. They provide paralegal training for girls. The Chassidus has not been been taken over by hot heads. It is Torah im Derech Eretz - with Chassidishe malbish. Perhaps this is why they are peacefully resolving disputes in Bes Din.

15

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
RHULH Says:

"The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn"

I think this should say 45

You're right, Izzy Englander is the financial backbone of 48. Unfortunately for 45, their counterpart, Rabbi Dunner, is no longer able to provide for them, and there have been numerous rumors that they are constantly on the verge of financial collapse. Melamdim rarely get paid in time, etc.

16

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:59 AM Lakewood Rosh Chaburah Says:

Reply to #8  
RHULH Says:

"The 48th Street Bobov has been particularly hit hard by the economic downturn"

I think this should say 45

Its the 48 street community,that was hard hit by the economy. The 48 community took away all the money from the 45 and they lost everything.

17

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

As a bobover chasid I can tell you bobover chasidus died the 12th of adar. 2005 both of these leaders can't compare not to the father in law nor to his half brother they were kedoshim

From Bobover chusid to Bobover chusid: Amen to that; I have become disgusted with the whole thing from day one by the lack of true leader ship on either side.

18

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:53 AM from bp Says:

Reply to #12  
AuthenticSatmar Says:

A number of clarifications:
The dispute was originally in court, and it was a frum judge that pushed them to go to din torah.
The article also leaves out the issue of how to count who is in the kehilla, and who is considered to belong to which side.
There is also an issue of investments made with money from and using the non profit status of UBI-United Bobov International, is privately owned or belongs to Bobov.
There is also a question of what status 'Rav Hatzuir-the young Rebbe' means.
As for comparing it to Satmar, while Satmar chose to fight in public, on a personal lever there is much more harmony. Families weren't torn apart, shiduchim weren't cancelled, and the mosdos worked together behind the scenes.

"Families weren't torn apart, shiduchim weren't cancelled," not if this is refering to satmer or bobuv but it has happened by both so verify your statments before u write.

19

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:

The article also leaves out the issue of "Trademark," which of the two communities own the name BOBOV

20

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:

To bring up Satamar dispute in comparison is complete Loshon Hora.

21

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:51 AM BOBOVER Says:

To #1 and #3
The Court sent this case to Din Torah becouse this is what was the request, you can see it if you look for the papers of this case.
Going to Beth din doesnt mean Macloikes, its a Dispute, Dispute doesnt = Machloikes, Yes I am a proud BOBOVER that we dont have any machloikes or Hate, Yes we have a dispute and we did what the Torah tells us to do, Go to Beth Din.
Go into any BOBOV Shul on shabbos and you will find BOBOVERS from both Tzedodim.

22

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Thank you bobov for not being in court with your schmutz, I hope bes din will resolve this dispute to be beneficial to all parties. Again, thanks for making a kidish hashem being in bes din instead of secular court. The satmar dispute is really ugly and a big chilel hashem.

23

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:49 AM Yoelie Says:

The website of the Five Towns Jewish Times has been hacked by Islamic extremists! http://www.5tjt.com

24

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:45 AM punch Says:

the late bobov rebbe R' Shlomo z"l is surely proud of his decendents

25

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:42 AM Anonymous Says:

And if Bobov 48 wins, what stops bobov 45 from opening up under a different name?

26

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:40 AM satmar Says:

some 45th street guy wrote this article. no question about it

27

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
formally Says:

I give credit to Bobov for keeping it civil and doing as they preach

I call it civil war not civil if a father does not go to his sons simcha because he believes in another derech in avdus hashem its not civil

28

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:35 AM When is good news bad news? Says:

When the news is that two Jewish leaders are trying to do it right makes the headlines because it's news, then it's bad news.

29

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:25 AM Anonymous Says:

This entire parsha is a tragedy, the way the din torahs are run. In the the Mishpacha,
several weeks ago there was an article about a wonderful Bais Din that takes
minutes. This lacking plus the spariodical sessions is what makes the Din Toras
so corrupt and damaging.
The fact that they do not record the sessions, for later review and the far
spaced sessions causes
1) Many important facts to be forgotten and distorted.
2) A lot of nonsense being spoken, which causes much wasted precious
time.
3) Lies flowing freely, because they can later be denied as they are not
accounted for.
The long drawn out Din Toras causes
1) Too much bad blood to flow between the 2 parties, that are usually
irreparible.
2) The finances become more entangled and usually irretrievable.
The Dayanim will yet have to give Din Vecheshbon for all the damages
they are causing. They are the cause for people to go to courts.
Veyehi Bimei Shfot Hashoftim...is how Migilas Rus begins, we all know
that Veyehi, symbolizes "bad times" all tzoros come to Klall Yisroel when
the Dayanim are corrupt. They are responsible for all the tzoros in klall
Yisroel, and the poor victims are afraid to open their mouth

30

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:23 AM Anonymous Says:

They went to court in front of judge schmit, but he forced them to go to a bais din!

31

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

As a bobover chasid I can tell you bobover chasidus died the 12th of adar. 2005 both of these leaders can't compare not to the father in law nor to his half brother they were kedoshim

guess that makes you ban ex-bobver chasid,because my bobov is alive and well

32

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:

they are fighting for the others rights to be dismantelrd. Why? Why cant there be 2 Bobover rebbes. The looser will maintain his own stature anyway? Y'eha Sholom.

33

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:15 AM Anonymous Says:

So these 5 dayanim started learning halacha now if I'm not mistaken the Rebbe ZT"L was niftar like 5 years ago what's taking them so long?

34

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:10 AM Anonymous Says:

I think they got it a little confused. Its the 45th side that finds itself in dire financial straits, ever since the demise of their primary benefactor Dunner. The staff hasn't been paid in months and things are starting to fall apart. At this point they are just hoping for some sort of monetary award from b"d in order to be able to survive. The dispute regarding the infrastructure is a foregone conclusion.

By the way, there were attempts to go to court. 45th street initiated a case in Sullivan County regarding the summer camps. But b"d put a stop to it by pulling everything into one case.

In the end, it is the entire Bobov who are the losers. They used to enjoy universal acceptance as a friendly peacful place. Ever since the dispute they have lost their lustre in the eys of the rest of klal yisroel. Shame.

35

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:07 AM מהפך פשטא Says:

When the dvision first took place, it broke my heart. Mind you, I am not a Bobover Chosid, but I recall that Reb Shlomo ZT"L stood for "Ahavas Yisroael" he had no bad words for anyone. So that a "Machlokes" should break out in Bobov, is definitely "Maase Satan" no less, the Devil's work. It separated families, fathers and sons, brother, etc. They say that Rav Unger is a big "Talmid Chochom", so he should have become the "Rosh Hayishivah". Let's hope that the "Psak" of the Beis Din will be accepted by all, and that Bobov will be restored to its former glory.

36

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:11 AM Authentic Londoner Says:

I thought ZAVLA stands for "Ze borer Litvak echad" as otherwise this issue is impossible to resolve.

37

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
BOBOVER Says:

To #1 and #3
The Court sent this case to Din Torah becouse this is what was the request, you can see it if you look for the papers of this case.
Going to Beth din doesnt mean Macloikes, its a Dispute, Dispute doesnt = Machloikes, Yes I am a proud BOBOVER that we dont have any machloikes or Hate, Yes we have a dispute and we did what the Torah tells us to do, Go to Beth Din.
Go into any BOBOV Shul on shabbos and you will find BOBOVERS from both Tzedodim.

That's not true, most 48, including myself, will never step into 45. Not out of hate, but simply because they desperately want us to come.

38

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
AuthenticSatmar Says:

A number of clarifications:
The dispute was originally in court, and it was a frum judge that pushed them to go to din torah.
The article also leaves out the issue of how to count who is in the kehilla, and who is considered to belong to which side.
There is also an issue of investments made with money from and using the non profit status of UBI-United Bobov International, is privately owned or belongs to Bobov.
There is also a question of what status 'Rav Hatzuir-the young Rebbe' means.
As for comparing it to Satmar, while Satmar chose to fight in public, on a personal lever there is much more harmony. Families weren't torn apart, shiduchim weren't cancelled, and the mosdos worked together behind the scenes.

I don't know what you're talking about. Satmar has had 15 years to settle down, and there is still very little peace. Cemetery disputes, Bnei Yoel, etc. Where have you been? Perhaps you were oblivious to the torn-apart families, cancelled shidduchim, mosdos fighting in secular court, etc, etc, etc.... They're simply tired of fighting, and evetually all things settle down.

How many Bobover fighting videos have been posted on youtube?

39

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

I thought they DID try to take it to secular court, but were asked by the judge to go to Beis Din instead.

you are 100 % right it was in court and the judge told the to take it to Beth Din

40

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Dont give it to either of them take a new brother or son or son-in law to restart a chasidus which was butiful

41

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

you are 100 % right it was in court and the judge told the to take it to Beth Din

This does not solve the issue of the YERISHA (NECHNUSIM) THATS ANOTHER ISSUE. AS FAR AS I KNOW , IS BOBOV OF 48th St. STATED IN THE DAYS OF SHIVA THAT HE DOES NOT WANT THAT THE CHILDREN FROM HIS BROTHER
ZT''L SHOULD GET NOTHING FROM THE YARUSHA. I HEARD IT FROM HIS OWN MOUTH ( Reb BenTzion daim Ruv's ZT"L) . If you really need help, i will wake you up

42

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:27 AM moshe Says:

whats the real reason the rebbes dont write wills? does anyone know?! wouldnt that solve all the problems?

43

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:11 AM Toronto Friend of Bobov Says:

Hi, personally never understood 2 things. 1st, why would anyone want to be a rebbe to begin with. Its such a pressure and drain. If I were R' Ben Zion and R' Ungar stepped in I would've let him have it with open arms. 2nd, why should there be any arguments, the whole point of a rebbe is to give one a derech in avodas hashem. If one feels he can get it from R' Ben Zion great! If another gets it from R'Ungar great!

44

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:04 AM 45 Says:

Reply to #37  
Anonymous Says:

That's not true, most 48, including myself, will never step into 45. Not out of hate, but simply because they desperately want us to come.

so its not cuz of hate, but you cause the hate to keep on going...... (bt"w 45 is not looking for all 48's, they just will not throw them out from shul like 48 does.....!)

45

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Meanwhile, machloikes breeds the worst midos. Yes, shiddichim are rejected because the other family is from the other side. Yes, (mostly 48 to 45) won't greet someone from the other side in the street. Yes, people are excluded from being invited to simchas. Yes, some people cross the borders to enter the other beis medrash for simchos, but many don't. 45 people complain that they are often heckled, sometimes physically attacked when coming to a simcha at 48. There are some zaides on that will not attend an oifrif or bris of an ainekel at 45. If anyone thinks these midos are good, find some seforim that say to do this. Otherwise, I think these things are disgusting. How can we raise our kinderlech when we allow this to go on? We need peace, and it must be right at the tops.

46

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
BOBOVER Says:

To #1 and #3
The Court sent this case to Din Torah becouse this is what was the request, you can see it if you look for the papers of this case.
Going to Beth din doesnt mean Macloikes, its a Dispute, Dispute doesnt = Machloikes, Yes I am a proud BOBOVER that we dont have any machloikes or Hate, Yes we have a dispute and we did what the Torah tells us to do, Go to Beth Din.
Go into any BOBOV Shul on shabbos and you will find BOBOVERS from both Tzedodim.

That's not true. The girls camp is still in court and 45th didn't even send a hazmanah to Beth Din, its 2 years later

47

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:56 AM Anonymous Says:

WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark


48

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:53 AM Ha Ha Ha - What a Joke! Says:

The Dayonim and Toanim are all making a FORTUNE on this.

Bobov has enough billions to keep this Din Torah "ongoing" for the next 3,000 years.

Expect precisely that to happen as long as the Dayonim keep living off of the Rich endless Bank Accounts of Bobov.

The only time this case will come to a close will be when the dayonim run out of money to be paid, which will never happen.

Realistically it can only come to real close, during this century, only if it goes to court because the Dayonim have made a mockery out of the Din_Torah_Justice_System by them dragging things out forever when they have a very huge, financial VESTED INTEREST to keep it dragging out forever.

49

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:43 AM gelt Says:

The BD has to rush in the psak. My feelings is that, with all these years,is like indirectly, directly, BD accomplished that will be 2 BobovERS REbbes, they are going now divide the money and assets, one way another and continue in their ways

50

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:41 AM Tanna Kamma Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

they are fighting for the others rights to be dismantelrd. Why? Why cant there be 2 Bobover rebbes. The looser will maintain his own stature anyway? Y'eha Sholom.

You are obviously not too informed on this case - 45th is perfectly happy to let the other exist, it's the 48th who say openly that they cannot tolerate another group sharing their name. The respective positions were proclaimed publicly at the assemblies held by each side several years ago..

51

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:37 AM Heimesh Says:

Reply to #40  
Anonymous Says:

Dont give it to either of them take a new brother or son or son-in law to restart a chasidus which was butiful

B"H 2 nice Chasidus whats the problem, competition is good for business.......

52

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:35 AM bobover Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

you are 100 % right it was in court and the judge told the to take it to Beth Din

no, the request was to go to Beth din, and not shlep around till evryone kratzis os to go to beth din

53

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:

dont know about you but i would have a hard time respecting a rebbe who is the cause of machlokes, what kinda example on mentchlichkait and derech eretz is that? let the big rav what he is say i a m mevater being rebbe and the hec with kavod. THEN he is respectable!!!

54

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:41 AM 1Bobov4ever Says:

I invite all of the Yidden that have no shaiches with Bobov to come see us.

Come see the Ruv's weekday minyan, Hodu 8:25 SHARP. Come see the full big Beis Midrash upstairs & downstairs in Mishnas Yoina every night with Bale Batim learning. Come see Kabulas Shabbos. Come see the Tish Friday night. Come see the Divrei Chaim shiur given by The Ruv zul zein gezint every Shabbos morning 8:45 sharp. Come see Shabbos Shachris, Come see BOBOV at Shalei Sheedis. I guarantee it a sight you have never seen.

Come see our Koilel of 200 avreichem. Come see our Mesifta Bochurim.
We are finishing our new Bnos Zion building. We are building a new camp for our Yeshiva Ketana. We are ALIVE & BLOOMING!

They say seeing is believing. Don't believe what you see on the internet. SEE YOURSELVES, YOU DECIDE!

We have a great Rebbe that supplies us with Toira, hadrocho & happiness.

Bobov is alive and well Baruch Hashem. Just like my father told me when the Ruz Z"L was getting older and thing weren't the way it should be. " Wait until Reb Benzion will take over. Es vet zein shener fin freier. Ich hub adurch geleibt dus tzvei muhl, ba de Kedushas Zion in ven de Ruv z"l iz gekimen kein America".

55

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:26 AM Anonymous Says:

This is a typical example of low quality news.

The Article Doesn't Mention

1. The Din Torah is still ongoing and there are scheduled hearing up until May 18,
2. That main issues are, who owns the Trademark , and if a minority that left has can claim his share .
3. That a spechial election was held a year ago, and the results were 29.8% for Unger - 70.2% for Halberstam




56

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:21 AM chusidwb Says:

Satmer machlokes is boring allready , this is like change of scenery ,a breath of fresh air,, leider!!

57

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:

the 1st mentioned dayan name is rabbi zeltenriech

58

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:

No wonder why we are still in galus.

59

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

This does not solve the issue of the YERISHA (NECHNUSIM) THATS ANOTHER ISSUE. AS FAR AS I KNOW , IS BOBOV OF 48th St. STATED IN THE DAYS OF SHIVA THAT HE DOES NOT WANT THAT THE CHILDREN FROM HIS BROTHER
ZT''L SHOULD GET NOTHING FROM THE YARUSHA. I HEARD IT FROM HIS OWN MOUTH ( Reb BenTzion daim Ruv's ZT"L) . If you really need help, i will wake you up

That is not his choice. According to the Torah, the older son has a portion of the yerusha. And his children inherit from him. The question whether the rebbistveh and the assets of "Bobov" are included in that is to be decided by beis din. But no one can overrule the Torah about yesusha, not even R' BAL.

60

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:10 PM Anonymous Says:

If anyone ever went to Din Tora, they will understand why people are driven to court.
(No excuse,nevertheless) Especially by Rabbi Rosenberg, and when
Rabbi Gruss is the Toen, they are a team. The entire session is a game played on the Baali Dinim's expense. Arriving late, cracking jokes, throwing insults and discussing irrelevant topics,and dragging the sessions are the norm.

If they would take minutes as in secular courts, they would save a lot of time,
be careful what they speak, and Din Toras would be more meaningful and
productive. This is the only solution to changing the horrible system.
Its about time the Dayanim take their roles seriously, they are ruining the
Justice System by Klall Yisroel, which is at present a disaster. They are
causing people to go to court, or otherwise leave disputes unsettled.
They are the cause for increased Machlokes (since there is nowhere to
go to resolve them in a Toradige fashion)
Going to Din Tora to resolve disputes should be respectable and commendable.
Din Toras should end fast.
They ,the Dayanim and Toanim have made it into a MAFIA money making game.
They,too will be accountable one day,,,The Dayan Haemes is not sleeping.

61

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:08 PM grauss Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark


are you 1 of the dayonim that know- so why dont you come out with the psak
1 correct- but MM einhorn told in BD what it ment.
2. ok nice of you to give them 30% keep on counting.
3. chasukah- through police thats a sheila. do you have an haskomah on your psak.
4.they dont court is waiting for a psak (not yours). they tryed to get one but could not.. look it up on us tradmarks.
now let me ask you
“ WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN........

62

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark


Regarding Chazuka, who exactly is Michzek? Everyone knows you don't lose Chazuka by being thrown out with physical violence

63

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:02 PM Anonymous Says:

do you really think that it will end this winter?? such shtissim-- mark me on my word it wont end so quick.

64

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:

This is a typical example of low quality news.

The Article Doesn't Mention

1. The Din Torah is still ongoing and there are scheduled hearing up until May 18,
2. That main issues are, who owns the Trademark , and if a minority that left has can claim his share .
3. That a spechial election was held a year ago, and the results were 29.8% for Unger - 70.2% for Halberstam

65

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Have they ever considered the radical notion of choosing a successor to the rebbe by a popular vote of the chassidim (leaving aside the issue of whether the women should be allowed to vote) or even a concensus decision by the "alter chassidim" whose wisdom would lead to the best choice, rather than throwing the issue into either civil or rabbinical courts or automatically making the oldest son the new rebbe. I guess that making a decision on who is the "most qualified" to lead a large organization based on personal and professional skills and lamdus would be a threat to the lineage of succession concept.

66

 Nov 23, 2009 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
1Bobov4ever Says:

I invite all of the Yidden that have no shaiches with Bobov to come see us.

Come see the Ruv's weekday minyan, Hodu 8:25 SHARP. Come see the full big Beis Midrash upstairs & downstairs in Mishnas Yoina every night with Bale Batim learning. Come see Kabulas Shabbos. Come see the Tish Friday night. Come see the Divrei Chaim shiur given by The Ruv zul zein gezint every Shabbos morning 8:45 sharp. Come see Shabbos Shachris, Come see BOBOV at Shalei Sheedis. I guarantee it a sight you have never seen.

Come see our Koilel of 200 avreichem. Come see our Mesifta Bochurim.
We are finishing our new Bnos Zion building. We are building a new camp for our Yeshiva Ketana. We are ALIVE & BLOOMING!

They say seeing is believing. Don't believe what you see on the internet. SEE YOURSELVES, YOU DECIDE!

We have a great Rebbe that supplies us with Toira, hadrocho & happiness.

Bobov is alive and well Baruch Hashem. Just like my father told me when the Ruz Z"L was getting older and thing weren't the way it should be. " Wait until Reb Benzion will take over. Es vet zein shener fin freier. Ich hub adurch geleibt dus tzvei muhl, ba de Kedushas Zion in ven de Ruv z"l iz gekimen kein America".

In yiddish zugt men oiven pitz inten shmitz I don't want to elaborate but as a yid with no connection to either bobov but who davens in 48 everyday 3 tefilos a day (not shabbos or yomtov) yes people learn everyday in the shul but they are the most fake phony chasidus you will find they sure can still learn the basics of ahavas yisroel like the previous rebbes had, Rab Naftali ZT"L had such ahavas yisroel that's why you won't even recognize him as a bobover Rebbe. if no ahavas yisroel the whole so called torah aint worth the time you are wasting learning it

67

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

If anyone ever went to Din Tora, they will understand why people are driven to court.
(No excuse,nevertheless) Especially by Rabbi Rosenberg, and when
Rabbi Gruss is the Toen, they are a team. The entire session is a game played on the Baali Dinim's expense. Arriving late, cracking jokes, throwing insults and discussing irrelevant topics,and dragging the sessions are the norm.

If they would take minutes as in secular courts, they would save a lot of time,
be careful what they speak, and Din Toras would be more meaningful and
productive. This is the only solution to changing the horrible system.
Its about time the Dayanim take their roles seriously, they are ruining the
Justice System by Klall Yisroel, which is at present a disaster. They are
causing people to go to court, or otherwise leave disputes unsettled.
They are the cause for increased Machlokes (since there is nowhere to
go to resolve them in a Toradige fashion)
Going to Din Tora to resolve disputes should be respectable and commendable.
Din Toras should end fast.
They ,the Dayanim and Toanim have made it into a MAFIA money making game.
They,too will be accountable one day,,,The Dayan Haemes is not sleeping.

OY NEBACH - those DAYANIM will be accountable and nobody will be able to help them out!

68

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Anonymous Says:

Regarding Chazuka, who exactly is Michzek? Everyone knows you don't lose Chazuka by being thrown out with physical violence

Remember who HAYADAYIM YEDEI EISAV used to belong to! Here they belong to the leaders of Bobov 48. The Rebbe has some team of henchmen.

69

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

do you really think that it will end this winter?? such shtissim-- mark me on my word it wont end so quick.

Why should it end? The Dayanim are raking in big$$$. They're not ready to give that up yet. Besides, there will be a REVOLT from 48 St if they judge HONESTLY and give 45 their fair share. It's just easier to stall (and make mega bucks) than face the music

70

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #50  
Tanna Kamma Says:

You are obviously not too informed on this case - 45th is perfectly happy to let the other exist, it's the 48th who say openly that they cannot tolerate another group sharing their name. The respective positions were proclaimed publicly at the assemblies held by each side several years ago..

that is exactly the shlomo hamelech story , the one who is not willing to split (the child) is the real father

71

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
chusidwb Says:

Satmer machlokes is boring allready , this is like change of scenery ,a breath of fresh air,, leider!!

Can do without this EXCITEMENT - it's SICKENING!

72

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

No wonder why we are still in galus.

Git Gezugt - Leider Emes!!!

73

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
Anonymous Says:

That is not his choice. According to the Torah, the older son has a portion of the yerusha. And his children inherit from him. The question whether the rebbistveh and the assets of "Bobov" are included in that is to be decided by beis din. But no one can overrule the Torah about yesusha, not even R' BAL.

When R' Shloime said he doesn't want both sons ruling, R' Naftuli was ALIVE and WELL. The Kavanah then was - he didn't want R' Benzion destroying what he and R' Naftuli worked so hard to recreate after WWII.

74

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:59 PM Anonymous Says:

If any of the Bobover Chassidim had an iota of respect for Reb Shlomo z"l the first thing they would have done was not to fractionalize Bobov. Reb Shlomo in his lifetime would not endorse even critical matters pertaining to world Jewry for fear that he would be taking a particular side. He was for peace sholom and harmony at all costs. It is only natural that his son steeped in as his successor. I am not choosing sides. If there was a need for another leader then he should have gathered his followers and made himself a beis medrash called himself any name other than Bobov and he would have been highly successful. Even Bobover chassidim would have supported him. To call himself bobover Rebbe in my opinion is to flush away years of his zaydeh Reb shlomo's true legacy.

75

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
Anonymous Says:

This is a typical example of low quality news.

The Article Doesn't Mention

1. The Din Torah is still ongoing and there are scheduled hearing up until May 18,
2. That main issues are, who owns the Trademark , and if a minority that left has can claim his share .
3. That a spechial election was held a year ago, and the results were 29.8% for Unger - 70.2% for Halberstam

that's what 48 Bobov would LIKE you to BELIEVE. But the facts are REVERSED. 45 Bobov and all the people who spoke their TRUE feelings made up the VAST MAJORITY!

76

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:15 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't know much about Bobov but what I can't understand is this Zibola thing. In London, Manchester, Antwerp, Gateshead, B'nei B'rak and, of course, Yerushalayim we have established botei din with completely neutral Rabbonim, all experienced and honorable. Each of the above cities has more than one such beis din so if for any reason one cannot go to one there is always a choice.

BTW Whatever you think of the Eidah Chareidis one thing is not disputed is that it's Dinei Toiroh, Kashrus, Gittin and Chupas etc. are superlative and beyond reproach. I have seen an Eidah din torah. It was exemplary in its conduct and fairness and the loser admitted that it was in accordance with Halocho.

77

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
1Bobov4ever Says:

I invite all of the Yidden that have no shaiches with Bobov to come see us.

Come see the Ruv's weekday minyan, Hodu 8:25 SHARP. Come see the full big Beis Midrash upstairs & downstairs in Mishnas Yoina every night with Bale Batim learning. Come see Kabulas Shabbos. Come see the Tish Friday night. Come see the Divrei Chaim shiur given by The Ruv zul zein gezint every Shabbos morning 8:45 sharp. Come see Shabbos Shachris, Come see BOBOV at Shalei Sheedis. I guarantee it a sight you have never seen.

Come see our Koilel of 200 avreichem. Come see our Mesifta Bochurim.
We are finishing our new Bnos Zion building. We are building a new camp for our Yeshiva Ketana. We are ALIVE & BLOOMING!

They say seeing is believing. Don't believe what you see on the internet. SEE YOURSELVES, YOU DECIDE!

We have a great Rebbe that supplies us with Toira, hadrocho & happiness.

Bobov is alive and well Baruch Hashem. Just like my father told me when the Ruz Z"L was getting older and thing weren't the way it should be. " Wait until Reb Benzion will take over. Es vet zein shener fin freier. Ich hub adurch geleibt dus tzvei muhl, ba de Kedushas Zion in ven de Ruv z"l iz gekimen kein America".

That's WONDERFUL. But do you have an idea what is going on on 45? Every week the greatest Gdolim pay visits to R' Mordeche Dovid to shmooze in learning. Think they can do that with R'BZ too?

78

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:12 PM Din torah guy Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

This entire parsha is a tragedy, the way the din torahs are run. In the the Mishpacha,
several weeks ago there was an article about a wonderful Bais Din that takes
minutes. This lacking plus the spariodical sessions is what makes the Din Toras
so corrupt and damaging.
The fact that they do not record the sessions, for later review and the far
spaced sessions causes
1) Many important facts to be forgotten and distorted.
2) A lot of nonsense being spoken, which causes much wasted precious
time.
3) Lies flowing freely, because they can later be denied as they are not
accounted for.
The long drawn out Din Toras causes
1) Too much bad blood to flow between the 2 parties, that are usually
irreparible.
2) The finances become more entangled and usually irretrievable.
The Dayanim will yet have to give Din Vecheshbon for all the damages
they are causing. They are the cause for people to go to courts.
Veyehi Bimei Shfot Hashoftim...is how Migilas Rus begins, we all know
that Veyehi, symbolizes "bad times" all tzoros come to Klall Yisroel when
the Dayanim are corrupt. They are responsible for all the tzoros in klall
Yisroel, and the poor victims are afraid to open their mouth

"a beis din that only takes minutes"...

1. why would it be considered a GOOD thing to submit a case without allowing substantial time for consideration?

2. the Bobov'er din torah has actually rendered 9 rulings since its ensemble in May of 2005.

3. the Bobov'er din torah convenes every month of the year, for a full week. this results in 25% of the annual workload of the 5 dayanim. - no other court, secular or otherwise, has ever acted in such urgency.

(more later)

79

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
BOBOVER Says:

To #1 and #3
The Court sent this case to Din Torah becouse this is what was the request, you can see it if you look for the papers of this case.
Going to Beth din doesnt mean Macloikes, its a Dispute, Dispute doesnt = Machloikes, Yes I am a proud BOBOVER that we dont have any machloikes or Hate, Yes we have a dispute and we did what the Torah tells us to do, Go to Beth Din.
Go into any BOBOV Shul on shabbos and you will find BOBOVERS from both Tzedodim.

you are living in a dream world/
as an outsider looking in, i can tell you that you are TOTALY WRONG.
There is a tremendous amount of HATE in Bobov, especialy from the 48 faction towards the 45 faction.

80

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Meanwhile, machloikes breeds the worst midos. Yes, shiddichim are rejected because the other family is from the other side. Yes, (mostly 48 to 45) won't greet someone from the other side in the street. Yes, people are excluded from being invited to simchas. Yes, some people cross the borders to enter the other beis medrash for simchos, but many don't. 45 people complain that they are often heckled, sometimes physically attacked when coming to a simcha at 48. There are some zaides on that will not attend an oifrif or bris of an ainekel at 45. If anyone thinks these midos are good, find some seforim that say to do this. Otherwise, I think these things are disgusting. How can we raise our kinderlech when we allow this to go on? We need peace, and it must be right at the tops.

you are 100% RIGHT.
now find a way to get these 48ers to open their eyes and see how they are tearing apart entire families!

81

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:39 PM bobover Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

you are living in a dream world/
as an outsider looking in, i can tell you that you are TOTALY WRONG.
There is a tremendous amount of HATE in Bobov, especialy from the 48 faction towards the 45 faction.

noisey people dont represent the whole kehilah kedoisha. 90%+ of 48 go to 45 for simches and 95%+ of 45 go to 48 for simches the rest 5-10% are what you are refering to.....

82

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Anonymous Says:

In yiddish zugt men oiven pitz inten shmitz I don't want to elaborate but as a yid with no connection to either bobov but who davens in 48 everyday 3 tefilos a day (not shabbos or yomtov) yes people learn everyday in the shul but they are the most fake phony chasidus you will find they sure can still learn the basics of ahavas yisroel like the previous rebbes had, Rab Naftali ZT"L had such ahavas yisroel that's why you won't even recognize him as a bobover Rebbe. if no ahavas yisroel the whole so called torah aint worth the time you are wasting learning it

By the way, the was once a gentile that wherever he went he complained that he can't stand it because there were too many jews there. He always made the same comment, in the grocery, the shopping center, the clothing store and the ball game etc. A Jew once overheard him on the subway complaining about that wherever he went there are too many jews. The Jew responded "why don't you go to Hell, the are no Jews there"!!

83

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

This does not solve the issue of the YERISHA (NECHNUSIM) THATS ANOTHER ISSUE. AS FAR AS I KNOW , IS BOBOV OF 48th St. STATED IN THE DAYS OF SHIVA THAT HE DOES NOT WANT THAT THE CHILDREN FROM HIS BROTHER
ZT''L SHOULD GET NOTHING FROM THE YARUSHA. I HEARD IT FROM HIS OWN MOUTH ( Reb BenTzion daim Ruv's ZT"L) . If you really need help, i will wake you up

Does NOt want they should get NOTHING - you know what double negatives mean. They should NOT get NOTHING - means they should get EVERYTHING. Hearing from R Ben Zion himself is such an accurate source of info.

84

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:31 PM Simcha Zisel Says:

Reply to #65  
Anonymous Says:

Have they ever considered the radical notion of choosing a successor to the rebbe by a popular vote of the chassidim (leaving aside the issue of whether the women should be allowed to vote) or even a concensus decision by the "alter chassidim" whose wisdom would lead to the best choice, rather than throwing the issue into either civil or rabbinical courts or automatically making the oldest son the new rebbe. I guess that making a decision on who is the "most qualified" to lead a large organization based on personal and professional skills and lamdus would be a threat to the lineage of succession concept.

We chassidim follow the concept adopted by the Yeshivish crowd. By the way did you check lately, who the Rosh Yeshivas are in Lakewood, Ponevitch, Chevron, Mir, Bais Hatalmud, etc, etc. This chas v'sholom doesn't mean they are not great. (its just that lineage does play a role)

85

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
1Bobov4ever Says:

I invite all of the Yidden that have no shaiches with Bobov to come see us.

Come see the Ruv's weekday minyan, Hodu 8:25 SHARP. Come see the full big Beis Midrash upstairs & downstairs in Mishnas Yoina every night with Bale Batim learning. Come see Kabulas Shabbos. Come see the Tish Friday night. Come see the Divrei Chaim shiur given by The Ruv zul zein gezint every Shabbos morning 8:45 sharp. Come see Shabbos Shachris, Come see BOBOV at Shalei Sheedis. I guarantee it a sight you have never seen.

Come see our Koilel of 200 avreichem. Come see our Mesifta Bochurim.
We are finishing our new Bnos Zion building. We are building a new camp for our Yeshiva Ketana. We are ALIVE & BLOOMING!

They say seeing is believing. Don't believe what you see on the internet. SEE YOURSELVES, YOU DECIDE!

We have a great Rebbe that supplies us with Toira, hadrocho & happiness.

Bobov is alive and well Baruch Hashem. Just like my father told me when the Ruz Z"L was getting older and thing weren't the way it should be. " Wait until Reb Benzion will take over. Es vet zein shener fin freier. Ich hub adurch geleibt dus tzvei muhl, ba de Kedushas Zion in ven de Ruv z"l iz gekimen kein America".

Well written!

86

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
moshe Says:

whats the real reason the rebbes dont write wills? does anyone know?! wouldnt that solve all the problems?

The reason Rebbes don't write wills is simple. There is absolutely no need for a will. Everything regarding yerusha is written "ruchel bitcha haktana" in Shulchan Aruch.
If you are not going to listen to Shulchan Aruch", are you going to listen to a will?

87

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:44 PM A Jew Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

I thought they DID try to take it to secular court, but were asked by the judge to go to Beis Din instead.

to make it very clear the 45th street guys called Bobov to court and the jusge asked them to go to bes din.

88

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:42 PM MM Says:

Reply to #81  
bobover Says:

noisey people dont represent the whole kehilah kedoisha. 90%+ of 48 go to 45 for simches and 95%+ of 45 go to 48 for simches the rest 5-10% are what you are refering to.....

where did the ruv's gabbi daven this shabbos?????

89

 Nov 23, 2009 at 01:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
Anonymous Says:

Have they ever considered the radical notion of choosing a successor to the rebbe by a popular vote of the chassidim (leaving aside the issue of whether the women should be allowed to vote) or even a concensus decision by the "alter chassidim" whose wisdom would lead to the best choice, rather than throwing the issue into either civil or rabbinical courts or automatically making the oldest son the new rebbe. I guess that making a decision on who is the "most qualified" to lead a large organization based on personal and professional skills and lamdus would be a threat to the lineage of succession concept.

But if an election why only a Rebbes kids why should my son who happens to be a talmud chuchim (some say a baal ruach hakodesh as well) why can't he be a rebbe just because I'm not a rebbe?

90

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
1Bobov4ever Says:

I invite all of the Yidden that have no shaiches with Bobov to come see us.

Come see the Ruv's weekday minyan, Hodu 8:25 SHARP. Come see the full big Beis Midrash upstairs & downstairs in Mishnas Yoina every night with Bale Batim learning. Come see Kabulas Shabbos. Come see the Tish Friday night. Come see the Divrei Chaim shiur given by The Ruv zul zein gezint every Shabbos morning 8:45 sharp. Come see Shabbos Shachris, Come see BOBOV at Shalei Sheedis. I guarantee it a sight you have never seen.

Come see our Koilel of 200 avreichem. Come see our Mesifta Bochurim.
We are finishing our new Bnos Zion building. We are building a new camp for our Yeshiva Ketana. We are ALIVE & BLOOMING!

They say seeing is believing. Don't believe what you see on the internet. SEE YOURSELVES, YOU DECIDE!

We have a great Rebbe that supplies us with Toira, hadrocho & happiness.

Bobov is alive and well Baruch Hashem. Just like my father told me when the Ruz Z"L was getting older and thing weren't the way it should be. " Wait until Reb Benzion will take over. Es vet zein shener fin freier. Ich hub adurch geleibt dus tzvei muhl, ba de Kedushas Zion in ven de Ruv z"l iz gekimen kein America".

Exactly,

91

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

If any of the Bobover Chassidim had an iota of respect for Reb Shlomo z"l the first thing they would have done was not to fractionalize Bobov. Reb Shlomo in his lifetime would not endorse even critical matters pertaining to world Jewry for fear that he would be taking a particular side. He was for peace sholom and harmony at all costs. It is only natural that his son steeped in as his successor. I am not choosing sides. If there was a need for another leader then he should have gathered his followers and made himself a beis medrash called himself any name other than Bobov and he would have been highly successful. Even Bobover chassidim would have supported him. To call himself bobover Rebbe in my opinion is to flush away years of his zaydeh Reb shlomo's true legacy.

"it was only natural that his son steeped in as his successor" and that's what happened!
it was only after his son passed away, that his half brother disputed the leadership of his brothers son in-law's
I am not choosing sides. If there was a need for another leader then he should have gathered his followers and made himself a beis medrash called himself any name other than Bobov and he would have been highly successful. Even Bobover chassidim would have supported him. To call himself bobover Rebbe in my opinion is to flush away years of his fathers Reb shlomo's and his brother Reb naftali's true legacy. ”

92

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:52 PM Some one that knows Says:

Reply to #16  
Lakewood Rosh Chaburah Says:

Its the 48 street community,that was hard hit by the economy. The 48 community took away all the money from the 45 and they lost everything.

Took away money? look how things get fabricated.

93

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Din torah guy Says:

"a beis din that only takes minutes"...

1. why would it be considered a GOOD thing to submit a case without allowing substantial time for consideration?

2. the Bobov'er din torah has actually rendered 9 rulings since its ensemble in May of 2005.

3. the Bobov'er din torah convenes every month of the year, for a full week. this results in 25% of the annual workload of the 5 dayanim. - no other court, secular or otherwise, has ever acted in such urgency.

(more later)

This is really not true, were you there? The entire session is a joke, they argue about
trivial matters and don't get to the point. This case should have been decided
ages ago, if they would have had everything recorded every thing would have been
exposed and the Dayanim and Toanim would have dealt with the issues seriously
and with responsibility. After all the Shechina presides at Din Toras? Where is
there Yiras Shamayim?????

94

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:12 PM To set it straight Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark


#4 Trademark, trademark; himel in erd in trademark. Coca Cola is a trademark. Is Bobov Coca Cola? Is Coca Cola a city? Is Bobov a Soda?

Does anyone own the name of a town? Can I call myself “New Yorker”, or do I need permission from New York’s mayor? What if someone became Ruv today in one of the three cities in Europe called “Bobov”, does he have the right to call himself “Bobov”, or does he first have to ask permission from “48 Street” (also a trademark by now!).

Every normal person knows that Bobover call themselves “Bobov”, so would anyone in their right mind say that exactly those who have farkrochen from the elementary requirement of Bobov which is Shoolem, that those are going to be called Bobov; but those in 45th Street who are the siltoi veshamnoi of Bobov who follow all the teachings of Bobov and are crying for shoolem already FIVE years; those will be denied the name Bobov??????????????

95

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:07 PM Boropark Says:

Reply to #87  
A Jew Says:

to make it very clear the 45th street guys called Bobov to court and the jusge asked them to go to bes din.

To make it very very clear! 48 never wanted to go to Din Torah. there are letters dated in shiva days from 45 requesting 48 to come to bes din. There was no choice in the matter only to go before a judge to force 48 to come to the Din Toarh.
For hours and days Rav Halberstam didnt want to sign the Stureu Bririn. he had no choice.

96

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:03 PM To set it straight Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark


#3 The only Chazookeh that they have is a "yod Chazookeh". A policewomen was actually the one who gave over the Beis Hamedresh to Reb Ben Zion. She went over to him and told him "Rabbi, the lecturn is clear", hayeshoomeh kazois? To the credit of the Bobover Rebbe and Bobover Ruv of 45th street, they said that we will not create a chilul Hashem, and that they will rather go to a Din Torah then fight in a Beis Medrash, a mookem koodesh. This was a real kidush Hashem to see how the two son in laws of Reb Naftule ZT”L "thrown out" literally like dogs from their own Beis Medrash, from their inheritance, from everything that was stolen from them, and still they behaved imaculately as becoming of a real Bobover chusid, and asking only to go to Din Torah. The Torah doesn't give Chazookeh to thieves, and punch the Nirdof; not my Torah.

97

 Nov 23, 2009 at 02:49 PM To set it straight Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark


#1 The one who named him Rav Hatzooir testified by Beth Din that it did "NOT" mean that automatically Reb BZ would succeed his brother. Reb BZ begged for that title, and the Bobover Ruv Reb Naftule ZT"L himself called it "ah title oon ah mitel". Sof maseh bemachshooveh techileh the purpose for the title "Rav Hatzooir" was so that they could later claim that it meant that he is next in line. #2 To dispel a lie, those weren't "votes". It was for Beth Din to see for "themselves" who and how many want what. Those who were questioned answered a number of questions. The results were made public; therefore 48 Streeters were intimidated and forced to go answer the questionere. That is the reason why there were about 300 cancelled questioneres from people who came out of fear but told Beth Din that they don't want this on their conscience and they are “mevatel" their answers. From 45 Street not even one person cancelled their answers as no one was forced to go & answer. Then even after all of 48 Street’s shenanigans, 45th Street had 31.8 to 52.7% for their Rebbe, depending on how and whom you count. That speaks volumes, as everyone knows that this means double in open and fair elections.

98

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #94  
To set it straight Says:

#4 Trademark, trademark; himel in erd in trademark. Coca Cola is a trademark. Is Bobov Coca Cola? Is Coca Cola a city? Is Bobov a Soda?

Does anyone own the name of a town? Can I call myself “New Yorker”, or do I need permission from New York’s mayor? What if someone became Ruv today in one of the three cities in Europe called “Bobov”, does he have the right to call himself “Bobov”, or does he first have to ask permission from “48 Street” (also a trademark by now!).

Every normal person knows that Bobover call themselves “Bobov”, so would anyone in their right mind say that exactly those who have farkrochen from the elementary requirement of Bobov which is Shoolem, that those are going to be called Bobov; but those in 45th Street who are the siltoi veshamnoi of Bobov who follow all the teachings of Bobov and are crying for shoolem already FIVE years; those will be denied the name Bobov??????????????

1.philadelphia insurance has a trademark on "philadelphia"
2. bank of new york has a trademark on "NEW YORK" (for banking purpose's)

99

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:40 PM To set it straight Says:

Reply to #98  
Anonymous Says:

1.philadelphia insurance has a trademark on "philadelphia"
2. bank of new york has a trademark on "NEW YORK" (for banking purpose's)

Therefore Bobov is a trademark?

Let's say that it is a trademark (which it is not), would you want to be banned from calling yourself a "Bobover" if you lose the din Torah?

Regardless who wins or loses the din Torah; can Beth Din tell someone born and bred in Bobov that he can't call himself a Bobover?

Wishful thinking my friend; men chapt zich oon in stroi.

100

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:56 PM To set it straight Says:

Reply to #87  
A Jew Says:

to make it very clear the 45th street guys called Bobov to court and the jusge asked them to go to bes din.

Bobov 45 called Bobov 48 to Din Torah and they didn’t want to go. Their Toiyen answered that it is “meivee lidei giyuch” that it is laughable to go to a Din Torah. Hayeshoomah kazois that A Yid wants to go to Din Torah and the others sides Toiyen answers “sorry but there is NOTHING to go to Din Torah about”? That going to a Din Torah is laughable?

What were the children of the Bobover Ruv Reb Naftuleh supposed to do? Were they supposed to leave with absolutely nothing but their clothe on their back? Where they supposed to let 48 street be moitzee el hapoiyel what they intended and did which is to wipe out the name of Reb Naftule as a non Bobover Rebbe? Look, #54 calls the Bobover Ruv Reb Shloime the “Ruv Zichroinoi Livrocha”. What does he call Reb Naftule??? Is there no shame?

In 48 St. Reb BZ IS memaleh mookem his father, not his brother and that is THE reason and the ONLY reason why Reb Naftule’s son in laws, + counting now over 60% of Bobover Chasidim decided to leave 48 Street and wait for the psak din.

Bobov 45 went to court to force Bobov 48 to Beth Din, because plain and simple 48 street didn’t want a din Torah and now they are shlepping because they don’t want a psak!!!

101

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:53 PM Bystander Says:

Reply to #42  
moshe Says:

whats the real reason the rebbes dont write wills? does anyone know?! wouldnt that solve all the problems?

a) You'll never know if there was a will locked in a safe somewhere, but someone disliked its contents, so it conveniently disappeared....

b) The Bobovers are not so holy moly, "gentlemen" you can hear the hatred here between the lines .....

c) In my opinion if these Rebbes are tuned into a higher frequency which they should be, they should've just turned around to the wall and do their thing, daven, learn, etc. and not be pr-occupied all day & nite with: how many people there are behind him, and how many people are on the other side. who is a member or who is a soineh, who voted & how, and how we should take revenge on the so called sonim. how we can make them suffer, and occasionaly made good on a threat. that is not what Bobov stood for, the mere calling someone a soineh goes against the grain of Bobov....... Bobov WAS peacfull, walking tall with the epitomy of correctness, & compromise as its mascot, I just hope for Bobov's sake that the saying is true "History repeats itself" .......... waiting

102

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:07 PM Chana Michla Says:

Reply to #95  
Boropark Says:

To make it very very clear! 48 never wanted to go to Din Torah. there are letters dated in shiva days from 45 requesting 48 to come to bes din. There was no choice in the matter only to go before a judge to force 48 to come to the Din Toarh.
For hours and days Rav Halberstam didnt want to sign the Stureu Bririn. he had no choice.

As a lady and not a Bobover, I don't understand one thing.

How come that those called 45th Streeters are arguing the entire din torah on vusizneis. Whom are you trying to convince? These are din torah arguments. If Bais din will accept it you will win, if not then you wont. It is also abit funny that you are making fun of the bais din and ridiculing them and questioning their honesty (as if already giving a reason for your losing)

104

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Meanwhile, machloikes breeds the worst midos. Yes, shiddichim are rejected because the other family is from the other side. Yes, (mostly 48 to 45) won't greet someone from the other side in the street. Yes, people are excluded from being invited to simchas. Yes, some people cross the borders to enter the other beis medrash for simchos, but many don't. 45 people complain that they are often heckled, sometimes physically attacked when coming to a simcha at 48. There are some zaides on that will not attend an oifrif or bris of an ainekel at 45. If anyone thinks these midos are good, find some seforim that say to do this. Otherwise, I think these things are disgusting. How can we raise our kinderlech when we allow this to go on? We need peace, and it must be right at the tops.

exactly as described. But the damage has been done and is irreversable regardless of whatever "peace" or pask will come of it. The "top" has to be big enough to put a stop to their behaviour.

105

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Anonymous Says:

In yiddish zugt men oiven pitz inten shmitz I don't want to elaborate but as a yid with no connection to either bobov but who davens in 48 everyday 3 tefilos a day (not shabbos or yomtov) yes people learn everyday in the shul but they are the most fake phony chasidus you will find they sure can still learn the basics of ahavas yisroel like the previous rebbes had, Rab Naftali ZT"L had such ahavas yisroel that's why you won't even recognize him as a bobover Rebbe. if no ahavas yisroel the whole so called torah aint worth the time you are wasting learning it

amen 2 that!!!!

106

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #99  
To set it straight Says:

Therefore Bobov is a trademark?

Let's say that it is a trademark (which it is not), would you want to be banned from calling yourself a "Bobover" if you lose the din Torah?

Regardless who wins or loses the din Torah; can Beth Din tell someone born and bred in Bobov that he can't call himself a Bobover?

Wishful thinking my friend; men chapt zich oon in stroi.

I just reviewed every comment. 83% of all comments were from 45th Streeters or who say they are non affiliated (??) who interestingly knew every detail of the actual din torah. of those kim'at 90% are demaening , ridiculing and explaining how rotten the bais din and the process is.

This sounds to me like a prelude to excuses why they lost. Mr. Thompson and Mccain atleast waited till after the election to do that.

107

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:01 PM Moishe Says:

I feel so so bad for all the sore losers. Go nebach and sulk in your corner. Hamokum Yenachem Eschem. Complain about the votes, complain about the bais din that they are unfair and only talk trivial, complain that you were nebach thrown out, that the police lady gave over the shul, that you are a victim of circumstances, that the bais din will never pasken erlich. This is called in psychology Sour Grapes. Why are you now giving all the excuses in case you lose. Lets wait and see what bais din paskins. Why defame bes din with all names now. Maybe just maybe they will paskin on your side.

A wife afetr looking awhile found her husband hiding under the bed. The wife asked him to come out. The husband replied, No! I am boss! I can hide under the bed whenever I want. Sit in the Bais Yakov basement and scream out loud that you are the boss!

110

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:17 PM To set the record straight Says:

Hi bystander; a) I too believe that there is a strong possibility that he did write a tzavooha but it was gotten rid of when he was finally not in control anymore. Who would’ve gotten rid of it, would have to be the one who had the most to lose.

b)Without knowing any Bobover, how can you come to such a conclusion. Even in present 48 there are still a few remaining ovdei Hashem who for one reason or another are STILL there. In 45th there are dozens of ovdei Hashem without any gizmeh.

c) I take umbrage to what you wrote as it is exactly the opposite of the metziyess. My rebbe is NOT occupied with what you wrote; as a matter of fact he does everything in his power that his chasidim aren’t occupied with it. Please visit us and see for yourself.

111

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:24 PM To set the record straight Says:

Reply to #102  
Chana Michla Says:

As a lady and not a Bobover, I don't understand one thing.

How come that those called 45th Streeters are arguing the entire din torah on vusizneis. Whom are you trying to convince? These are din torah arguments. If Bais din will accept it you will win, if not then you wont. It is also abit funny that you are making fun of the bais din and ridiculing them and questioning their honesty (as if already giving a reason for your losing)

Why does it bother you that the arguments made in Beth din are also made here on Vusizneis? Shouldn't Vusizneis readers also get to read the truth?

Regarding the Beth Din which I personally have tried hard to avoid ridiculing them; you and all other non Bobovers’s should pick up the phone and make a HIMEL GESHREI!!! Does a Din Torah need to take five or more years? Why should any Yid want to go to din Torah if one side (in this case it’s 48 street) can pull out the din Torah until Moshiach vet kimen.

112

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:24 PM To set it straight Says:

Reply to #54  
1Bobov4ever Says:

I invite all of the Yidden that have no shaiches with Bobov to come see us.

Come see the Ruv's weekday minyan, Hodu 8:25 SHARP. Come see the full big Beis Midrash upstairs & downstairs in Mishnas Yoina every night with Bale Batim learning. Come see Kabulas Shabbos. Come see the Tish Friday night. Come see the Divrei Chaim shiur given by The Ruv zul zein gezint every Shabbos morning 8:45 sharp. Come see Shabbos Shachris, Come see BOBOV at Shalei Sheedis. I guarantee it a sight you have never seen.

Come see our Koilel of 200 avreichem. Come see our Mesifta Bochurim.
We are finishing our new Bnos Zion building. We are building a new camp for our Yeshiva Ketana. We are ALIVE & BLOOMING!

They say seeing is believing. Don't believe what you see on the internet. SEE YOURSELVES, YOU DECIDE!

We have a great Rebbe that supplies us with Toira, hadrocho & happiness.

Bobov is alive and well Baruch Hashem. Just like my father told me when the Ruz Z"L was getting older and thing weren't the way it should be. " Wait until Reb Benzion will take over. Es vet zein shener fin freier. Ich hub adurch geleibt dus tzvei muhl, ba de Kedushas Zion in ven de Ruv z"l iz gekimen kein America".

Very interesting and unbelievable; and what did your father think of Reb Naftultche? That they'll skip him over and put him in the garbage can? Indeed broo karei de'avihe. Because of peple like you 45th street left in droves. Anyone with any feeling for kedishe could not stand such a bilbul of choil and hakoidesh. In 45 street where there is at least one oveid Hashem and Talmid Chuchem on EVERY table in Beis Medrash, that you see as gurnisht; but the mooreh shechoireh that is everywhere around you, that to you glitters?

Indeed morei veraboisei, do go to both places on Shabbos or Yom Tov and come back and tell us what you saw.

113

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #102  
Chana Michla Says:

As a lady and not a Bobover, I don't understand one thing.

How come that those called 45th Streeters are arguing the entire din torah on vusizneis. Whom are you trying to convince? These are din torah arguments. If Bais din will accept it you will win, if not then you wont. It is also abit funny that you are making fun of the bais din and ridiculing them and questioning their honesty (as if already giving a reason for your losing)

I'm also not a Bobover, I'm not rediculing the Bais Din, I'm just making a point,
that if the Din Torah would be run according to Halacha , with Yoisher and
with a Jewish Heart it would have been decided a long time ago and the
Machloke would be a thing of the past. People can live with reality, they
cannot live with doubt and false hopes.
All the Machlokes, the turning to Goyishe Courts, Yiddish Gelt going
down the drain (overpayments to the Batei Dinim, and money stolen
and disappearing, because the baalei dinim get more time and opportunity
to hold on to whatever Nechosim they got their hands on ,not neccessarily
rightfully so) is on the bloody hands of the Batei Dinim.
Every penny that they cause the "rightful" owner to lose, will be accountable
at the Bais Din Shel Maaleh. According to Halacha, if one causes another
person to lose money of anything of monetary value it is as though he has
stolen.
To prove a point, have you ever seen a piece of news bring so many
comments?? All these people are affected and hurt, this should have
been resolved a very long time ago. Do you see that this Bais Din is
causing this ongoing Machloke? How will they do Teshuva? Nebech!

114

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Ha Ha Ha - What a Joke! Says:

The Dayonim and Toanim are all making a FORTUNE on this.

Bobov has enough billions to keep this Din Torah "ongoing" for the next 3,000 years.

Expect precisely that to happen as long as the Dayonim keep living off of the Rich endless Bank Accounts of Bobov.

The only time this case will come to a close will be when the dayonim run out of money to be paid, which will never happen.

Realistically it can only come to real close, during this century, only if it goes to court because the Dayonim have made a mockery out of the Din_Torah_Justice_System by them dragging things out forever when they have a very huge, financial VESTED INTEREST to keep it dragging out forever.

You got it RIGHT - it's $$$ that's prolonging the Psak and causing so much animosity in the process!!!

115

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

that is exactly the shlomo hamelech story , the one who is not willing to split (the child) is the real father

The ONLY difference is - a child CANNOT be split and a CHASIDUS CAN! Competition just makes it better for EVERYONE! 48 st would have been DICTATORIAL - if not that they knew there is a BRAIRA and you can leave and go to 45. That's still keeping them within BOUNDS! Otherwise it would have been a DISASTER!

116

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Meanwhile, machloikes breeds the worst midos. Yes, shiddichim are rejected because the other family is from the other side. Yes, (mostly 48 to 45) won't greet someone from the other side in the street. Yes, people are excluded from being invited to simchas. Yes, some people cross the borders to enter the other beis medrash for simchos, but many don't. 45 people complain that they are often heckled, sometimes physically attacked when coming to a simcha at 48. There are some zaides on that will not attend an oifrif or bris of an ainekel at 45. If anyone thinks these midos are good, find some seforim that say to do this. Otherwise, I think these things are disgusting. How can we raise our kinderlech when we allow this to go on? We need peace, and it must be right at the tops.

How about grandparents (in their 80s) who are Holocaust survivors and did NOT attend a grandsons Aufrif on 45 st last Shabbos? And the they did NOT attend the Chasunah - if that's not lower than low -- what is? And you know what the SHREK is: people on 48 st do NOT even get involved to knock some BRAINS or HEART into this old guy! To them this has become a NORMAL way of life. In Sdom MAYBE -- but you know what the end result was there. How can they behave so RISHISDIG? Do they think that out Tatte in Himmel has NACHAS from such low behavior?

117

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

If anyone ever went to Din Tora, they will understand why people are driven to court.
(No excuse,nevertheless) Especially by Rabbi Rosenberg, and when
Rabbi Gruss is the Toen, they are a team. The entire session is a game played on the Baali Dinim's expense. Arriving late, cracking jokes, throwing insults and discussing irrelevant topics,and dragging the sessions are the norm.

If they would take minutes as in secular courts, they would save a lot of time,
be careful what they speak, and Din Toras would be more meaningful and
productive. This is the only solution to changing the horrible system.
Its about time the Dayanim take their roles seriously, they are ruining the
Justice System by Klall Yisroel, which is at present a disaster. They are
causing people to go to court, or otherwise leave disputes unsettled.
They are the cause for increased Machlokes (since there is nowhere to
go to resolve them in a Toradige fashion)
Going to Din Tora to resolve disputes should be respectable and commendable.
Din Toras should end fast.
They ,the Dayanim and Toanim have made it into a MAFIA money making game.
They,too will be accountable one day,,,The Dayan Haemes is not sleeping.

just for your info: minutes are taken in this din tora. the bes din hired an expert writer to write every word that is being said there. yes, even the corny jokes.

118

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:29 PM To set the record straight Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

that is exactly the shlomo hamelech story , the one who is not willing to split (the child) is the real father

Cute, but not true.

The reason why the one who doesn't want the child sliced in half is the real mother is because the real mother can't see her child hurt even if it means that the child will be raised elsewhere.

Here 48 Street doesn't want Bobov split because they know that if there will be 2 Bobov's then 45 street will be the recognized one (as to most people who think Torahdig, it already is). That's why 48 street wants it all, because if not all then they will have nothing.

45 Street on the other hand needs a rebbe to look up to, and it doesn't bother them that another son of der free'erdiga Ruv also has a Beis Medrash with chasidim. Very simple.

119

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:28 PM Shushan Purim Says:

Reply to #112  
To set it straight Says:

Very interesting and unbelievable; and what did your father think of Reb Naftultche? That they'll skip him over and put him in the garbage can? Indeed broo karei de'avihe. Because of peple like you 45th street left in droves. Anyone with any feeling for kedishe could not stand such a bilbul of choil and hakoidesh. In 45 street where there is at least one oveid Hashem and Talmid Chuchem on EVERY table in Beis Medrash, that you see as gurnisht; but the mooreh shechoireh that is everywhere around you, that to you glitters?

Indeed morei veraboisei, do go to both places on Shabbos or Yom Tov and come back and tell us what you saw.

To #112, Wow. There is at least one Oveid Hashem on each table at 45th St. So you claim at least 16 Ovdei Hashem in your group. Thats some accomplishment.
What are the rest of the people?
You also ask a good question, Did you think they would skip Reb Naftulche and put him in the gargage can? Ask yourself the same question. Did you think the the holy Rov Z"l would dump his beloved son R' Ben Zion (after R' Naftulcha) and place him in the garbage, and want a grandchild should take over his chassidus he built.

It is ironic - how people davening in a basement, who don't own any of the buildings they are in, have not paid their melamdim or teachers for 5 months, have not paid their kolel yingeleit for 7 months, had to start school 2 weeks late, have not paid vendors 5 months, -- call the people at 48th st. depressed and mooreh schoreh.

120

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:27 PM bobov from before Says:

I am A Bobover and am deeply hurt by the machlokes this has caused both within my family and others. How do you justify family members not attending each others simchas and encouraged to do that? How do you justify the promotion of Lashon Horah and teaching children that this is Milchamas Hashem in yeshiva. Both sides need to correct their actions. But mostly the Din Torah must come to an end no matter what the Psak Din if only to allow everybody to get on with their lives and accept whatever the Psak Din. Only at the end can all of us move on and preach peace. i am not questioning their ability to issue a psak, I am questioning when so much hurt and pain surrounds the issue why not bring an end to it. A divorce is painful, but as long as it is the courts it is doubly so. Once the get is finalized each sides learns to live with the decision. I want that decision already.

121

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:15 PM Yerachmiel Lopin Says:

The US Supreme Court Says "Justice Delayed is Justice Denied" This is one piece of chochmos hagoyim with which I agree.

It seems to me that when such a machlokes breaks out, at least one of the parties has behaved badly and probably both.

I have to wonder why the bigger chassidishe groups have more money and kavod and that is motivating much of the feuding.

I think the Kapishnitzer Rebbe was right to want his children to have a path to parnassah without being Rebbes. It leads to Rebbes who are more l'shem shamayim. R. Moshe was a great tzadik. He once said to me that learning to be honest in business is very good training for being a rebb because you learn to not claim your personal financial interest is l'shem shamayim.

Even if there is a practice of the successor usually being the oldest son, I find the idea of sons and son-in-laws feeling "ez kimt zei" very unbecoming. Such an attitude is the opposite of a true rebbe whose neshomoh is constantly answering the question what can I give my chassidim. To me the machlokes and some of the comments make me wonder whether these "yerushah fights" will become more common because we have too many children of rebbes who are for self.

122

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

I just reviewed every comment. 83% of all comments were from 45th Streeters or who say they are non affiliated (??) who interestingly knew every detail of the actual din torah. of those kim'at 90% are demaening , ridiculing and explaining how rotten the bais din and the process is.

This sounds to me like a prelude to excuses why they lost. Mr. Thompson and Mccain atleast waited till after the election to do that.

Statistic just went up by 4 points to 87% of all comments being from 45th Streeters.
Again, interesting to note. All those who claim top be "non partisan", having "no knowledge of Bobov", somehow know All the facts of the din torah, know that the din torah is taking too long, that the 45th St Rebbe is a real big talmud chuchom, that the real ovdei hashem and erliche are on 45th street, etc. Wow! How do people not affiliated to this nasty machlokeh know every single detail, Mamish every taaneh that was presented to bais din.
(Is it maybe possible that you are misrepresenting yourself? Maybe you are a former Bobover, and want to form and mold other peoples opinions as if you are impartial. Say who you are Mit Shtultz and be proud of it, and let the educated public decide.)

123

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:05 PM To set the record straight Says:

Reply to #35  
מהפך פשטא Says:

When the dvision first took place, it broke my heart. Mind you, I am not a Bobover Chosid, but I recall that Reb Shlomo ZT"L stood for "Ahavas Yisroael" he had no bad words for anyone. So that a "Machlokes" should break out in Bobov, is definitely "Maase Satan" no less, the Devil's work. It separated families, fathers and sons, brother, etc. They say that Rav Unger is a big "Talmid Chochom", so he should have become the "Rosh Hayishivah". Let's hope that the "Psak" of the Beis Din will be accepted by all, and that Bobov will be restored to its former glory.

I agree with you that it is maase sooten, but you don't understand what transpired in Bobov in the last 20 years or more. He couldn't have become rosh Yeshiva as that position was already taken, and anyhow the split in Bobov has nothing to do with Rabbi Unger or Rabbi Rubin, it is all because Bobover Chasidim will not allow the blotting out of the Ruv zichroinoi livroocha Reb Naftuleh ZT"L. If his son in laws would have been Rabbi Riven and Rabbi Shimon it would have all been the same. As a matter of fact when people in the know saw what could happen and suggested that Reb Naftuleh’s children do something to stop Reb Ben Zion’s chevra from being able to take everything away, the Rebbe’s (Rabbi Unger) response was “az ah rebbe macht men zich nisht alein”, and he would not allow anything to be done to make a grab. I am in awe of the gevirah in such a decision.

124

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:53 PM Yossi Says:

My lawyer told me 22 years ago that the Worst settlement is Cheaper and Better then the best Decision...

125

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:55 PM Pupa Chosid Says:

As an outsider, we dont understand one thing. Why wasn't the oldest son - in - law (I think its Harav Rubin) made Rebbe? Is there something in the shilchin Aruch that the oldest shouldn't get it? Because maybe if the oldest was made Rebbe then there wouldn't be the machlokes of who should be. It would probably go to the oldest than to a brother.

126

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
from bp Says:

"Families weren't torn apart, shiduchim weren't cancelled," not if this is refering to satmer or bobuv but it has happened by both so verify your statments before u write.

Whom are you kidding? Would a bovov 48 45 be mesahadech , can a a48 come to a 45 kiddush , shulem zoocher?

127

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

you are living in a dream world/
as an outsider looking in, i can tell you that you are TOTALY WRONG.
There is a tremendous amount of HATE in Bobov, especialy from the 48 faction towards the 45 faction.

You bet! There are people who got the brilliant Hadracha from R'BZ that your own nephews, first cousins etc don't get invited to your Simchos just because they don't worship your Rebbe. Gimme a break - wasn't sinas chinom what the destruction of the Bais Hamikdosh was all about? Hashem needs your Chasidus or he needs you to behave like NORMAL erliche Yiden???

128

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
bobover Says:

noisey people dont represent the whole kehilah kedoisha. 90%+ of 48 go to 45 for simches and 95%+ of 45 go to 48 for simches the rest 5-10% are what you are refering to.....

Sorry - but your facts are a bit distorted too. 48 st usually will not come to45 st shul simchos. On neutral turf - they sometimes show up. At a Chasunah when R' Mordchai Duvid came in and the music started all of a sudden you would see the 48 streeters there RUN to the bathrooms. They suddenly all got stomach cramps. They couldn't face that hundreds of prople are acknowledging R' MD as REBBE! Wake up - it's FOR REAL!

129

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:27 PM Torontonian Says:

Doesn't just everyone love to watch and make sure they express an opinion! If the 127 people so far would have harnessed their time to learn something or say some tehillim , less hype and fuel for this most unfortunate disagreement would have been achieved.

130

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
bobover Says:

noisey people dont represent the whole kehilah kedoisha. 90%+ of 48 go to 45 for simches and 95%+ of 45 go to 48 for simches the rest 5-10% are what you are refering to.....

I can tell you (as an M.D.) LIFE is over when there's NO brain activity and NO heart beat. 48 st is off limits for a Kohen to enter. They are all legally DEAD there!

131

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:11 PM you make me cry Says:

Reply to #123  
To set the record straight Says:

I agree with you that it is maase sooten, but you don't understand what transpired in Bobov in the last 20 years or more. He couldn't have become rosh Yeshiva as that position was already taken, and anyhow the split in Bobov has nothing to do with Rabbi Unger or Rabbi Rubin, it is all because Bobover Chasidim will not allow the blotting out of the Ruv zichroinoi livroocha Reb Naftuleh ZT"L. If his son in laws would have been Rabbi Riven and Rabbi Shimon it would have all been the same. As a matter of fact when people in the know saw what could happen and suggested that Reb Naftuleh’s children do something to stop Reb Ben Zion’s chevra from being able to take everything away, the Rebbe’s (Rabbi Unger) response was “az ah rebbe macht men zich nisht alein”, and he would not allow anything to be done to make a grab. I am in awe of the gevirah in such a decision.

you are in awe. hmm what a great decision,if not for his mother in-law he would hidden under the blankets,shes the real power there give credit where credit is due,that what happens when you let your mother in law take over

132

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:41 PM Not Quite Says:

Reply to #118  
To set the record straight Says:

Cute, but not true.

The reason why the one who doesn't want the child sliced in half is the real mother is because the real mother can't see her child hurt even if it means that the child will be raised elsewhere.

Here 48 Street doesn't want Bobov split because they know that if there will be 2 Bobov's then 45 street will be the recognized one (as to most people who think Torahdig, it already is). That's why 48 street wants it all, because if not all then they will have nothing.

45 Street on the other hand needs a rebbe to look up to, and it doesn't bother them that another son of der free'erdiga Ruv also has a Beis Medrash with chasidim. Very simple.

You got the picture wrong, its Because when the 45th street people do something that a 48th street person would never think of doing like Rioting on the streets or driving motorcycles Etc. and they say they are from BOBOV! and thats the issue dont embarrass the name BOBOV! call it what ever you want NOT BOBOV!

133

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:09 PM Anonymous Says:

who ever laughs last laughs best . i remember i was a bucher, and older ungerleit tried to brain wash me by saying "luz dich up mordhe duvid vet gornisht zein,,," and look now, he has the second to biggest chasidus in boro park. dances hakufus for over thousand people. every night there are lines of people waiting to go in for kvitlech. kein yirbe vchein yifroitz.

134

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #122  
Anonymous Says:

Statistic just went up by 4 points to 87% of all comments being from 45th Streeters.
Again, interesting to note. All those who claim top be "non partisan", having "no knowledge of Bobov", somehow know All the facts of the din torah, know that the din torah is taking too long, that the 45th St Rebbe is a real big talmud chuchom, that the real ovdei hashem and erliche are on 45th street, etc. Wow! How do people not affiliated to this nasty machlokeh know every single detail, Mamish every taaneh that was presented to bais din.
(Is it maybe possible that you are misrepresenting yourself? Maybe you are a former Bobover, and want to form and mold other peoples opinions as if you are impartial. Say who you are Mit Shtultz and be proud of it, and let the educated public decide.)

Well at least you see that 45 st is ALIVE and flourishing and HERE to STAY!

135

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately this Machlokes is all Hitler yms'h doing. The first Rebezin HY'D was a Korbon of WWII. After the War, R' Shloime remarried and the new wife was a real stepmother to R'Naftuli. Her son is her LEGACY and is behaving like ALL his genes belong to Mama. His father was a gentleman. The animosity in the house always existed between the two sets of children. Nebach - R'Naftuli was such a TZADDIK and that's why his children are a pride to his legacy. Hashem will make sure that his children have Siyata Dishmaia and that's why they are SO successful B"H. It's a bitter pill for 48 st to swallow because they were brought up to believe that the second set of children are MOST important. Sorry- R"Shloime felt more for his surviving YASOM any day. But acknowledging that was not possible with Rebezin II . SAD but TRUE!

136

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:50 PM secret Says:

its about time they should finish cause the Dayonim r just showing for the people what a joke Beis Din is todays days and people will rather go to court and just make a chilul hashem

139

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #133  
Anonymous Says:

who ever laughs last laughs best . i remember i was a bucher, and older ungerleit tried to brain wash me by saying "luz dich up mordhe duvid vet gornisht zein,,," and look now, he has the second to biggest chasidus in boro park. dances hakufus for over thousand people. every night there are lines of people waiting to go in for kvitlech. kein yirbe vchein yifroitz.

HISTORY repeats itself - the more 45 st is oppressed, the mightier they grow B"H

140

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #136  
secret Says:

its about time they should finish cause the Dayonim r just showing for the people what a joke Beis Din is todays days and people will rather go to court and just make a chilul hashem

Nobody could blame someone fo wanting to AVOID BaisDin. Look at the mockery of justice and everything HOLY that they cause. What a CHILUL HASHEM!

141

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Gut in himmel!! Do you think moshiach will come with all this fighting? , what happened to the eidele bobover from yesteryear is all this a bad dream???

142

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #129  
Torontonian Says:

Doesn't just everyone love to watch and make sure they express an opinion! If the 127 people so far would have harnessed their time to learn something or say some tehillim , less hype and fuel for this most unfortunate disagreement would have been achieved.

Looks like you're entitled to your opinion too.

143

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:12 PM Shmaicheldig Says:

Reply to #122  
Anonymous Says:

Statistic just went up by 4 points to 87% of all comments being from 45th Streeters.
Again, interesting to note. All those who claim top be "non partisan", having "no knowledge of Bobov", somehow know All the facts of the din torah, know that the din torah is taking too long, that the 45th St Rebbe is a real big talmud chuchom, that the real ovdei hashem and erliche are on 45th street, etc. Wow! How do people not affiliated to this nasty machlokeh know every single detail, Mamish every taaneh that was presented to bais din.
(Is it maybe possible that you are misrepresenting yourself? Maybe you are a former Bobover, and want to form and mold other peoples opinions as if you are impartial. Say who you are Mit Shtultz and be proud of it, and let the educated public decide.)

I can't believe it. The statistic just went up with 5 more points to 93% of all comments are from 45th Streeters. I can't believe how bitter one can get.

Why worry. Why fret. Your taanis and reasoning is so so strong you are probably gonna win it al. Anyway, aren't you happy at 45th Street -- that you are no longer with those chevra from 48. You have all the talmidei chachomim, you have all the erliche, you know the right way that Bobover should act, you know and remember the last Bobover Rov Z"L R' Naftulche, your Rebbe is the talmid chochim and the pious and erliche one that shuns machlokis, you understand that the bais din are procrastinators, you are peace loving, you go to others simchas - while the 48th streeters don't, The Siyata Dishmaya is with you, they are metameh kohanim and are brain dead(comment # 130) you dont get stomach cramps and run to the bathroom (#28) etc etc.

Aizeh Hu Chochom Hasomaich B'chelkoh. B"H its obvious, you at 45th Strret got the better of the deal, and should be so so happy that you are not with them.

Now show it and dont go around depressed.

Be Happy. B"h now you are separate and not with those guys.

144

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:19 PM Pupa Chosid Says:

Why didn't anyone answer my question No. 25. Why wasn't the oldest son - in - law Harav Yehoshua Rubin become Rebbe. He is the son of the Sasraiginer Rebbe Shlita of Flatbush and a big Oivid Hashem and Talmid Chochom. They tell me he used to give shiurim in Bobov daily and Shabbos that were attended by hundreds.

145

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
Shushan Purim Says:

To #112, Wow. There is at least one Oveid Hashem on each table at 45th St. So you claim at least 16 Ovdei Hashem in your group. Thats some accomplishment.
What are the rest of the people?
You also ask a good question, Did you think they would skip Reb Naftulche and put him in the gargage can? Ask yourself the same question. Did you think the the holy Rov Z"l would dump his beloved son R' Ben Zion (after R' Naftulcha) and place him in the garbage, and want a grandchild should take over his chassidus he built.

It is ironic - how people davening in a basement, who don't own any of the buildings they are in, have not paid their melamdim or teachers for 5 months, have not paid their kolel yingeleit for 7 months, had to start school 2 weeks late, have not paid vendors 5 months, -- call the people at 48th st. depressed and mooreh schoreh.

Yes, if you have 100 and want 200 - you are DISSATISFIED and DEPRESSED. If you are a sameach bechelko and FARGIN then you are rich and happy. That's an old story!

146

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:27 PM Answers Please Says:

Just a few questions: Would'nt anybody at a Din Torah want the Beis Din to listen patiently to all his arguments, even those that his opponent does not consider important? Would anyone want a Beth Din to tell him: Be quiet! your argument is irrelevant? Are jokes cracked at a Din Torah, at which both parties give a laugh, maybe an effective tool to break the ice and bring the parties closer? Has anyone checked how long cases for similar amounts of money drag in court? Had'nt any psak given earlier - in this particular case - brought out more hurt feelings and hatered? Might the Beth Din be intentionally dragging the case so that every side realizes that basically it's a situation that can NOT be solved with just a psak, but rather with a living reality? Is the high cost possibly intended to give the parties an incentive to finish? Did anyone research if these 5 dayanim have a record of prolonging other Din Torah cases? Is it really that easy to bash Beis Din in general and in this case dayanim hand-picked by the parties?

147

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #107  
Moishe Says:

I feel so so bad for all the sore losers. Go nebach and sulk in your corner. Hamokum Yenachem Eschem. Complain about the votes, complain about the bais din that they are unfair and only talk trivial, complain that you were nebach thrown out, that the police lady gave over the shul, that you are a victim of circumstances, that the bais din will never pasken erlich. This is called in psychology Sour Grapes. Why are you now giving all the excuses in case you lose. Lets wait and see what bais din paskins. Why defame bes din with all names now. Maybe just maybe they will paskin on your side.

A wife afetr looking awhile found her husband hiding under the bed. The wife asked him to come out. The husband replied, No! I am boss! I can hide under the bed whenever I want. Sit in the Bais Yakov basement and scream out loud that you are the boss!

Best comment by far!

148

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
Shushan Purim Says:

To #112, Wow. There is at least one Oveid Hashem on each table at 45th St. So you claim at least 16 Ovdei Hashem in your group. Thats some accomplishment.
What are the rest of the people?
You also ask a good question, Did you think they would skip Reb Naftulche and put him in the gargage can? Ask yourself the same question. Did you think the the holy Rov Z"l would dump his beloved son R' Ben Zion (after R' Naftulcha) and place him in the garbage, and want a grandchild should take over his chassidus he built.

It is ironic - how people davening in a basement, who don't own any of the buildings they are in, have not paid their melamdim or teachers for 5 months, have not paid their kolel yingeleit for 7 months, had to start school 2 weeks late, have not paid vendors 5 months, -- call the people at 48th st. depressed and mooreh schoreh.

No, we're NOT davening in a BASEMENT. And even an honest basement is much more beloved to Hashem than a STOLEN gorgeous Shul. Marble on walls does not a MAKOM KODESH make, if you don't behave there al pi halacha!

149

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #141  
Anonymous Says:

Gut in himmel!! Do you think moshiach will come with all this fighting? , what happened to the eidele bobover from yesteryear is all this a bad dream???

Zeeskeit, I'm not condoning this, but fighting is the name of the game in every generation, be it Chassidish, Litvish, Sefardish, Ponovich.

Did you ever hear the history of R' Yonasan Eibshitz and the Ya'avetz? The animosity from those times makes these scuffles look friendly!

150

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #144  
Pupa Chosid Says:

Why didn't anyone answer my question No. 25. Why wasn't the oldest son - in - law Harav Yehoshua Rubin become Rebbe. He is the son of the Sasraiginer Rebbe Shlita of Flatbush and a big Oivid Hashem and Talmid Chochom. They tell me he used to give shiurim in Bobov daily and Shabbos that were attended by hundreds.

He wasn't the big fighter, that's why.

R' Shia was the nice guy, who some say still has half a heart in the real Bobov. There wouldnt be enough animosity to fuel the 45 hitzers if R' Shia was the leader.

RMD, on the other hand...

151

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:38 PM Yoichi Says:

By the way the comment above is true. I was at the wedding, when a 45th Street choson at his own wedding drove in on a Harley motorcycle looking like Michael Jackson, and all chassidim were dancing around him. I happen to be there because a member of the family was my contractor. I'll be honest I stayed at the wedding, in anticipation who else is riding in with what. It was a wedding that they could be proud of.

152

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #145  
Anonymous Says:

Yes, if you have 100 and want 200 - you are DISSATISFIED and DEPRESSED. If you are a sameach bechelko and FARGIN then you are rich and happy. That's an old story!

Who will the next 45 Rebbe will be? Someone Berkowitz or Lieberman? How will that continue the Halberstam/Tzanz/Bobov legacy?

Realistically, how does Unger qualify as a Bobover Rebbe? And what part of Bobov do the 45ths identify with anyway? 48 has 99% of the chushive zikney Bobov from der heim; 45 is just a bunch of Medicaid Hotheaded guys who needed some recognition/attention.

153

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:46 PM Boro Park Yid Says:

if if the psak will be that R'BZ must leave the 48 shul and relocate to another place, how many people will follow him? and how many people will stay in shul?

154

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #153  
Boro Park Yid Says:

if if the psak will be that R'BZ must leave the 48 shul and relocate to another place, how many people will follow him? and how many people will stay in shul?

its a good good question!!

155

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:04 PM Lipa Says:

As a mispalel kevuah at the Aperion Shel Shloma shul under the leadership of Harav Hagoan Rebbe Yosef Unger Shlita (Son of the Rebbe Shlita of 45th Street), I have a question that bothered me for a very long time. I was by the 45th street tisch a number of times and noticed that the Rebbes son - in law Harav Chaim B Halberstam sits first in front of the Rebbes oldest son Harav Yosef. Is there a reason for this. Is there something in Bobov history that son in laws are more important than sons. Or are they trying to prove a point.

I would ask him directly but he is very hurt by this situation.

156

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

Who will the next 45 Rebbe will be? Someone Berkowitz or Lieberman? How will that continue the Halberstam/Tzanz/Bobov legacy?

Realistically, how does Unger qualify as a Bobover Rebbe? And what part of Bobov do the 45ths identify with anyway? 48 has 99% of the chushive zikney Bobov from der heim; 45 is just a bunch of Medicaid Hotheaded guys who needed some recognition/attention.

This comment was plain stupid. What was the Besh"t family name? Who cares? For me, the memaleh makom needs to emulate the midos and derech of the predecessor. There isn't even a shadow of that left in 48. Wow, so they sing the same tunes at the tish!

At 45, the identity is with the atmosphere of being mekabel everyone with a sever panim yofos, promoting shalom among the community, not pushing away those in dire need of connection, being moser nefesh for anyone, placing a priority on Torah values. The "99% of chushive zikney Bobov" is a myth. Nowhere near. Besides, how many are not really chassidim of R' BAL, and just maintaining the same seat they had for all the years. Maybe you are busy with the last name on the passport, but I prefer to look at character and midos. Having walked into 48, and been subjected to nasty comments, having had family members boycott my simchos, I have great trouble in finding what 48 has from Bobov, besides whatever assets they grabbed and the address.

157

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

Who will the next 45 Rebbe will be? Someone Berkowitz or Lieberman? How will that continue the Halberstam/Tzanz/Bobov legacy?

Realistically, how does Unger qualify as a Bobover Rebbe? And what part of Bobov do the 45ths identify with anyway? 48 has 99% of the chushive zikney Bobov from der heim; 45 is just a bunch of Medicaid Hotheaded guys who needed some recognition/attention.

who is going to be the next ruv in 48st Bobov ? Chaim S.

158

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #146  
Answers Please Says:

Just a few questions: Would'nt anybody at a Din Torah want the Beis Din to listen patiently to all his arguments, even those that his opponent does not consider important? Would anyone want a Beth Din to tell him: Be quiet! your argument is irrelevant? Are jokes cracked at a Din Torah, at which both parties give a laugh, maybe an effective tool to break the ice and bring the parties closer? Has anyone checked how long cases for similar amounts of money drag in court? Had'nt any psak given earlier - in this particular case - brought out more hurt feelings and hatered? Might the Beth Din be intentionally dragging the case so that every side realizes that basically it's a situation that can NOT be solved with just a psak, but rather with a living reality? Is the high cost possibly intended to give the parties an incentive to finish? Did anyone research if these 5 dayanim have a record of prolonging other Din Torah cases? Is it really that easy to bash Beis Din in general and in this case dayanim hand-picked by the parties?

You're either naive or pretending to be. you claim;
1)The Bais Din "listens patiently..to the "arguments"no they're "stories"
totally "irrelevant" being heard.
2)Jokes are cracked to break the "ice" its the Toyen cracking cynical jokes and
the Rov cracking up in laughter at the other parties expense, give me a break...
3)Courts drag on- so that's the pattern of the Bais Din, nice comparrison!
A Bais Din Al Pi Torah should not emulate the Courts.
4)People go to Bais Din for a Psak, yes "JUST" a psak, the Baali Dinim will
deal with it, that's why they ended up in Bais Din. The Rov is not concerned
about the Baalei Dinim's emotion, give me a break.. you know that good and
well.
5) High cost- an incentive to end the Din Torah-it has never happened!
The side that wants to drag it out, because time is on their side,
manages to drag it out with the Bais Din's full cooperation!!
6) This Bais Din is run like a Club or better said a Mafia, its a give and
take.
Rabbi Grus, will create a wonderful case for you regardless of whether your
case is true or false, he'll teach you what to say.

159

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:54 PM Meshulam Says:

There were two interesting question asked No. 125 and No. 155, that no one answered. If someone knows the answer it would takeh be interesting.
1. Why Harav Yehoshua Rubin Shlita, the oldest son in law, didn't become Rebbe at 45th Street.
2. Why Harav Yossef Unger Shlita sits 2nd by his fathers tisch, even thou he is the oldest son. (He sits after the Rebbes Son in law)

Are these Bobover or Tzanzer minhagim.

160

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #157  
Anonymous Says:

who is going to be the next ruv in 48st Bobov ? Chaim S.

Boy - that's going to be some FIGHT! They learned such lessons.

161

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

Who will the next 45 Rebbe will be? Someone Berkowitz or Lieberman? How will that continue the Halberstam/Tzanz/Bobov legacy?

Realistically, how does Unger qualify as a Bobover Rebbe? And what part of Bobov do the 45ths identify with anyway? 48 has 99% of the chushive zikney Bobov from der heim; 45 is just a bunch of Medicaid Hotheaded guys who needed some recognition/attention.

There's NO such thing as Chosheve Ziknei Bobov. They're all a bunch of no backbone wimps. They know deep down that R' Shloime did NOT resemble this son. But who wants to give up their front row seat? locker? convenience of a Mikvah in the same building etc etc etc

162

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

Who will the next 45 Rebbe will be? Someone Berkowitz or Lieberman? How will that continue the Halberstam/Tzanz/Bobov legacy?

Realistically, how does Unger qualify as a Bobover Rebbe? And what part of Bobov do the 45ths identify with anyway? 48 has 99% of the chushive zikney Bobov from der heim; 45 is just a bunch of Medicaid Hotheaded guys who needed some recognition/attention.

You are absolutely RIGHT. Because they are MIKAREV all sorts - this choson stayed Jewish. You are forgetting that 45 st is only 4 1/2 years old. Whatever you don't like about them was ACTUALLY grown and cultivated on 48 st in the many previous years. It takes a long time to rectify SO many problems!

163

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #126  
Anonymous Says:

Whom are you kidding? Would a bovov 48 45 be mesahadech , can a a48 come to a 45 kiddush , shulem zoocher?

they wouled not be meshadech now but they did not break any shiddech or marriage !!!!!

164

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:11 PM A Boro Park Yid Says:

I am not a bobover but one thing I do see that bobov48st boys are much more chassidish then the Bobov45st boys they all wear black socks.

165

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #160  
Anonymous Says:

Boy - that's going to be some FIGHT! They learned such lessons.

I'm getting behind R' Chaim Shulem as of now!

166

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

Who will the next 45 Rebbe will be? Someone Berkowitz or Lieberman? How will that continue the Halberstam/Tzanz/Bobov legacy?

Realistically, how does Unger qualify as a Bobover Rebbe? And what part of Bobov do the 45ths identify with anyway? 48 has 99% of the chushive zikney Bobov from der heim; 45 is just a bunch of Medicaid Hotheaded guys who needed some recognition/attention.

BOY do you have a KRUMMER KOP! Reb Mordche Duvid besides his long list of yichus - has the most important element YICHUS ATZMI. Special grandfathers work against a person if he does NOT follow their example. If he does, they contribute. What can Reb BZ say with a clear conscience about his actions? Who is proud - his father? his ancestors? the Bashefer? Which Zaida would take credit for such offspring?

167

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:19 PM Anonymous Says:

its amazing how all of my bobover colleagues are responding here with such hatred! why do galatzyana people have such sinus chinum! is it not enough that zanger lost his wonderful sweet yingela who learned in bobov & was bullied into oncoming traffic do to these politics! its enough already ! stop! its a halberstam -ungar real estate 21st century fight not yours! i grew up & learned in bobov. reb shloma would smack you all up rite now. oh i forgot he was to nice for that. he passed away & you all became animals.im embarassed by the only mosid that was known as shulom & shalva.let there be more bobovs @ this point.

168

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #157  
Anonymous Says:

who is going to be the next ruv in 48st Bobov ? Chaim S.

You know R Yankel Miller's famous line. He wants to stick around for the BIG Belzer machlokes. When there's only ONE son - there are NO fights. But the Rebbes's son has a dozen kids, so imagine the fights that will go on there!

169

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:21 PM 146 Says:

Reply to #158  
Anonymous Says:

You're either naive or pretending to be. you claim;
1)The Bais Din "listens patiently..to the "arguments"no they're "stories"
totally "irrelevant" being heard.
2)Jokes are cracked to break the "ice" its the Toyen cracking cynical jokes and
the Rov cracking up in laughter at the other parties expense, give me a break...
3)Courts drag on- so that's the pattern of the Bais Din, nice comparrison!
A Bais Din Al Pi Torah should not emulate the Courts.
4)People go to Bais Din for a Psak, yes "JUST" a psak, the Baali Dinim will
deal with it, that's why they ended up in Bais Din. The Rov is not concerned
about the Baalei Dinim's emotion, give me a break.. you know that good and
well.
5) High cost- an incentive to end the Din Torah-it has never happened!
The side that wants to drag it out, because time is on their side,
manages to drag it out with the Bais Din's full cooperation!!
6) This Bais Din is run like a Club or better said a Mafia, its a give and
take.
Rabbi Grus, will create a wonderful case for you regardless of whether your
case is true or false, he'll teach you what to say.

1. Can you please define the difference between an argument and a story? never heard of a story or parrable to support an argument?
2. Jokes are cracked, because the easy-going atmosphere at a Beis Din permits them to. The non-animosity atmosphere at a Din Torah is created by this light attitude.
3. Litigation takes time anywhere, but NO COMPARRISON between Beis Din and secular court where dragging is a method.
4. True when a case is clear cut, black and white, and no mediation is needed. The world is usually grey.
5. Time is always on one side. Is it the regular that cases take years on end? is the expensive price perhaps the cause that they dont?
6. "This Bais Din" was handpicked equally by both parties. Did the other party not have a chance to hire this Rabbi Grus?

170

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #156  
Anonymous Says:

This comment was plain stupid. What was the Besh"t family name? Who cares? For me, the memaleh makom needs to emulate the midos and derech of the predecessor. There isn't even a shadow of that left in 48. Wow, so they sing the same tunes at the tish!

At 45, the identity is with the atmosphere of being mekabel everyone with a sever panim yofos, promoting shalom among the community, not pushing away those in dire need of connection, being moser nefesh for anyone, placing a priority on Torah values. The "99% of chushive zikney Bobov" is a myth. Nowhere near. Besides, how many are not really chassidim of R' BAL, and just maintaining the same seat they had for all the years. Maybe you are busy with the last name on the passport, but I prefer to look at character and midos. Having walked into 48, and been subjected to nasty comments, having had family members boycott my simchos, I have great trouble in finding what 48 has from Bobov, besides whatever assets they grabbed and the address.

Sever panim yufos my foot - its the same big plastered phony smile that is used to attract people in first place. And yes, there is something to having a Halberstam leading Bobov. You will deny it because it hurts you that your chassidus don't have anything to do with the 4 generations of Bobov.

Laugh all day, but my theory is that 45 get all smiley and warm when a 48 comes in only because they feel a real piece of their old Bobov came in, similar to homesickness. 48, on the other hand, does not want or need anyone from 45, and therefore the well-deserved cold attitude.

Besides, for all the 'warmth' and 'punim yufos', we will never forget the Ruv's (then Rav Hatzair) bloody sock on Simchas Torah 5765. Just a drop in the bloody ocean of MDU's henchmen.

171

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #153  
Boro Park Yid Says:

if if the psak will be that R'BZ must leave the 48 shul and relocate to another place, how many people will follow him? and how many people will stay in shul?

that was the Bais Din's BIG mistake - they should have said NOBODY gets the Bais Medrash till we come to a Psak . Guaranteed, very few would follow Reb BZ. Here it was just CONVENIENCE and HABIT that made people stay on 48.st. But at the votes - the truth leaked. Many were coerced, forced, threatened etc etc etc

172

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:29 PM Yosef Says:

Reply to #162  
Anonymous Says:

You are absolutely RIGHT. Because they are MIKAREV all sorts - this choson stayed Jewish. You are forgetting that 45 st is only 4 1/2 years old. Whatever you don't like about them was ACTUALLY grown and cultivated on 48 st in the many previous years. It takes a long time to rectify SO many problems!

Even not being a Bobover I know this answer. No. 162 you have never been so right. 45th street is only 4 1/2 years old. This boy on the motorcycle grew up during these 4 1/2 years ('06 and '09) plus the 5 years when Rebbe Mordechai Duvid ruled the roost between '00 and '05). When you say he grew up in 48th Street, just remember Rebbe Unger was 48th street for those 5 very unfortunate years. Boy did you step into it this time. All of this boys buchor years were taught and learned by Rebbe Mordechai Duvid. Rebbe Benzion had no hand in this one. Just admit you are wrong about this particular motorcycle boy and his friens. Go back being depressed and sulking.

173

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #164  
A Boro Park Yid Says:

I am not a bobover but one thing I do see that bobov48st boys are much more chassidish then the Bobov45st boys they all wear black socks.

The Satmer Ruv ZTZL once said "in America you look at the feet, not the head" He meant feet and inches - that unless a boy is 6 feet tall, he is not considered a good catch. Brain capacity does not matter as much. In Bobov 48 the stress on black socks also proves that the feet are more important than whats going on in the head. Says a lot!

174

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #166  
Anonymous Says:

BOY do you have a KRUMMER KOP! Reb Mordche Duvid besides his long list of yichus - has the most important element YICHUS ATZMI. Special grandfathers work against a person if he does NOT follow their example. If he does, they contribute. What can Reb BZ say with a clear conscience about his actions? Who is proud - his father? his ancestors? the Bashefer? Which Zaida would take credit for such offspring?

First, who are you to talk about someone else's personal life? Like the rest of them, you probably heard a few hand-me-down stories which you chose to believe because of your bias. It makes for good gossip, but where are the facts?

Second, and most importantly, a Rebbe needs to be a leader, someone who builds up Mosdos, keeps them running efficiently (including paying salaries on time, and handing out timely bonuses); someone who establishes kollelim and provides hadracha; someone who provides genuine leadership for his flock.

If the Rebbe knows shas by heart, that's a plus. But truly the learning is left for the dayan (or Ruv when applicable).

I remember 2000-2005 when the thugs ran the mosdos, they didn't admit many people, and they basically ran the mosdos and the reputation into the ground.

Walk into 48 on shabbos morning, or any night for nacht seder, and tell me for yourself whether this looks like a chassidus to be proud of. The Ruv took the mess that was created by the thugs and turned it into a beautiful chassidus, from which sprouts nonstop Torah and Chassidus.

Still got anything to say?

175

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #167  
Anonymous Says:

its amazing how all of my bobover colleagues are responding here with such hatred! why do galatzyana people have such sinus chinum! is it not enough that zanger lost his wonderful sweet yingela who learned in bobov & was bullied into oncoming traffic do to these politics! its enough already ! stop! its a halberstam -ungar real estate 21st century fight not yours! i grew up & learned in bobov. reb shloma would smack you all up rite now. oh i forgot he was to nice for that. he passed away & you all became animals.im embarassed by the only mosid that was known as shulom & shalva.let there be more bobovs @ this point.

You're right, and I'm ashamed to admit that I don't know where all this animosity is coming from. I don't care about any of them, am not involved with the chassidus anymore, yet I can't stand 45. It's a big nisayon to just lay it to rest.

176

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:45 PM Shlome Zalman Says:

Reply to #162  
Anonymous Says:

You are absolutely RIGHT. Because they are MIKAREV all sorts - this choson stayed Jewish. You are forgetting that 45 st is only 4 1/2 years old. Whatever you don't like about them was ACTUALLY grown and cultivated on 48 st in the many previous years. It takes a long time to rectify SO many problems!

It appears from most of the comments above that the qualifications that we are looking for to qualify as Bobover Rebbe, which the 45th Street Rebbe Harav Ungar has and the one on 48th Street Harav Halberstam does not is to be a big choshiveh talmud chochom, a shtarkeh ehrliche yid, a yiras shomayim, a mekarev ruchokim, honest, have tremendous yeechus atzmee. I have a great idea, which I am sure that the 45th Street Rebbe and chassidim would also agree to (it is said above he is a great baal m'vateh - he stays away from machlokes).

I would like to recommend Harav Hagoan Rebbe Berl Povarsky who has every one of the above attributes and alot more to become the next Bobover Rebbe. He is one of the big talmidei chachomim of our generation. It would be a great kiddush hashem. and there would be sholom al yisroel.

177

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #169  
146 Says:

1. Can you please define the difference between an argument and a story? never heard of a story or parrable to support an argument?
2. Jokes are cracked, because the easy-going atmosphere at a Beis Din permits them to. The non-animosity atmosphere at a Din Torah is created by this light attitude.
3. Litigation takes time anywhere, but NO COMPARRISON between Beis Din and secular court where dragging is a method.
4. True when a case is clear cut, black and white, and no mediation is needed. The world is usually grey.
5. Time is always on one side. Is it the regular that cases take years on end? is the expensive price perhaps the cause that they dont?
6. "This Bais Din" was handpicked equally by both parties. Did the other party not have a chance to hire this Rabbi Grus?

I will reply to all your questions, with one question, are you the smartest Bais Din in the entire universe? Whom are you trying to fool? In the entire world Din Toras are not conducted in this fashion and you are becoming "notorious" for " your" style.
You do not behave like a Yidden that believe in Hashem, nor like Yidden that have
a Yiddish heart.
Your questions and answers are very proffessional, but after 120 years, I hate
to inform you; they will not get you too far.
"To thine own self be truthful..."

178

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #164  
A Boro Park Yid Says:

I am not a bobover but one thing I do see that bobov48st boys are much more chassidish then the Bobov45st boys they all wear black socks.

I heard that R. BenTzion forces them to put it on even if their parents don't let them.
Is that true or not?

179

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:53 PM Boro Park Yiddine Says:

In Hallel we say"lamah yomru hagoyim"!
Stop with this fighting and machlokes. It brings to no good. Let's fargin one another. There is Boruch Hashem room for two. Outsiders should not be permitted to mix into a family matter. Look and see at all the challenges facing us Yidden, whether health, parnosah,shidduchim, divorce,children leaving or abusing our Torah ways...and lo aleinu more.
Let's each mind our own business and help others in need, not put fuel on fire.
Don't be mekabel any loshon horah written here as we don't know who is writing what.
It only ends up being a huge Chilul Hashem.

180

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:56 PM Pupa Chosid Says:

I dont understand. Out of 175 comments , cant we get a simple answer to two interesting simple questions from comment #125, #155, #159. Why are people avoiding the questions? Or do they not see them?

181

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:06 AM 169 Says:

Reply to #177  
Anonymous Says:

I will reply to all your questions, with one question, are you the smartest Bais Din in the entire universe? Whom are you trying to fool? In the entire world Din Toras are not conducted in this fashion and you are becoming "notorious" for " your" style.
You do not behave like a Yidden that believe in Hashem, nor like Yidden that have
a Yiddish heart.
Your questions and answers are very proffessional, but after 120 years, I hate
to inform you; they will not get you too far.
"To thine own self be truthful..."

If your problem is with this particular Beis Din, please remember it's a zabl"a, which means that it was picked and chosen by the parties themselves. If the parties are unhappy, they can blame only themselves, since you admit that "In the entire world Din Toras are not conducted in this fashion". BTW, as I understand it's the plaintiffs who are suffering from this style, why then dont they just drop their claim?

182

 Nov 24, 2009 at 08:05 AM Anonymous Says:

The Ruv R’ Shloimele ZT”L was an Ish Shalom, taking this to incredible extremes. There is no such tendency detected at 48. The heckling and nasty comments when a 45 comes to a simcha (on invitation from the baal simcho) are machlokes. The support for boycotting simchos at 45 is anti-shalom. These midos alone would cancel out any other maalos that one can conjure up about 48. And babies here are worried about the surname Halberstam? Who embarrasses the names of Bobov and Halberstam? Who denies yerusha to rightful heirs because of taavas hakovod? Who dances with joy during the shiva for the Ruv ZT”L?

As for 45 being represented strongly among commenters here, at least we surf VIN. Where do 48 surfers go?

Frankly, no beis din will tell me who to choose for the tzaddik I will give a kvittel to or ask for guidance in Avodas Hashem. As matters stand today, I consider R’ MD Bobover Rebbe, since he represents the midos that are Bobov. While I care that we at 45 should get our share of assets, it will not change my chassidis one iota. And I will not be machshiv the stupidities of black socks just because someone considers this more important than the midos of a chassidishe yid

183

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #141  
Anonymous Says:

Gut in himmel!! Do you think moshiach will come with all this fighting? , what happened to the eidele bobover from yesteryear is all this a bad dream???

What eidele? They just didn't have a chance to show their true color. It was a best kept secret that finally came out!

184

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:37 AM Anonymous Says:

I"m not a bobover, but I have a lot of friends from both sides. The 45th Bobovers talk only good things about their rebbe, but the 48th bobovers are always laughing from their rebbe. Do you call that a chasidus ?

185

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:39 AM Anonymous Says:

IF THEY CAN GO TO A DIN TORAH, WHY CAN'T SATMAR DO THE SAME THING ?

186

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #181  
169 Says:

If your problem is with this particular Beis Din, please remember it's a zabl"a, which means that it was picked and chosen by the parties themselves. If the parties are unhappy, they can blame only themselves, since you admit that "In the entire world Din Toras are not conducted in this fashion". BTW, as I understand it's the plaintiffs who are suffering from this style, why then dont they just drop their claim?

Because it is against Halacha, and you know it good and well, this is
a typical Gruss Shtick/

187

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:51 AM Smart Guy Says:

Reply to #42  
moshe Says:

whats the real reason the rebbes dont write wills? does anyone know?! wouldnt that solve all the problems?

Because even if they do write one, the othr side brings a forged one.

They know that there will be a fight, so they dont want to mix in, they know that what they should say, it wont make people in his kehilla think differently about his children.

188

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #155  
Lipa Says:

As a mispalel kevuah at the Aperion Shel Shloma shul under the leadership of Harav Hagoan Rebbe Yosef Unger Shlita (Son of the Rebbe Shlita of 45th Street), I have a question that bothered me for a very long time. I was by the 45th street tisch a number of times and noticed that the Rebbes son - in law Harav Chaim B Halberstam sits first in front of the Rebbes oldest son Harav Yosef. Is there a reason for this. Is there something in Bobov history that son in laws are more important than sons. Or are they trying to prove a point.

I would ask him directly but he is very hurt by this situation.

Because he's the oldest of the family.

189

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #159  
Meshulam Says:

There were two interesting question asked No. 125 and No. 155, that no one answered. If someone knows the answer it would takeh be interesting.
1. Why Harav Yehoshua Rubin Shlita, the oldest son in law, didn't become Rebbe at 45th Street.
2. Why Harav Yossef Unger Shlita sits 2nd by his fathers tisch, even thou he is the oldest son. (He sits after the Rebbes Son in law)

Are these Bobover or Tzanzer minhagim.

The reason the older Son-in-Law Rabbi Yehoshua Rubin didn't become the Rebbe is; after the petira of the late bobover rebbe z"l r' Naftuli, there was discussion between the Roshei Kehilla of 45 on how to split the duties & Kibudim between theese 2, they came to conclusion that rubin can't be a rebbe & he would be much better off being the Ruv, this means he Paskens sheilos, he has all the Sidur Kidushins etc. After discussing it with the 2 brother-in-laws they both acknowledged the same thing, & R' Mordchei Duvid asked Rubin to go home think about it for a few hours & talk it over with his family. That's how this decission was made, & it happens to be that this way is better for both of them and better for the chasidim.

190

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Just by reading all these comments one sees a thread of Sinas Chinom,
Machlokes and the worst coming out of everybody involved.
And so we appeal to the ESTEEMED Bais Din, bring this to an end.
The longer it takes the more damage occurs. Enough is enough!

191

 Nov 24, 2009 at 09:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Boy does 48 have a chip on their shoulder WOW

192

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:42 AM sechel hayusher Says:

For #155
I think that normal people -at least the ones that I know- arrange by any family seuda, the seating arrangements by age, not who's a son and who's a son inlaw, (b"h my inlaw treat me as I was born in their family from day 1, & that's how it should be).

I understand that the way you see it, if someone has 3 son inlaws that come first in the row, & he has a son that is yunger, the son should sit first before his older brother inlaw?!

Now because 45 has also a ruv, and he sits also in middle to the left of the rebbi, and his kids sit near him (also the older son inlaws before rabbi rubins son) they can't have the option of sitting on both sides of the rebbi, like it was by reb shlomo ztz"l that on 1 side sat his 2 sons, reb nuftuli ztz"l and reb benzion, and on the second side sat his son inlaws. (Yes reb benzion sat second to his father and his brother inlaw the dayen rabbi tauber) sat first to reb shlomo.

But on occasions that the son inlaws weren't there, reb naftuli ztz"l sat on one side and reb benzion on the other side.
The same is in 45, if on an occasion the rabbi rubin is not there, rabbi ungers son sits on one side, and his son inlaw sits on the other side.
O.k. My fingers are hurting me already, I think its enough for now...

193

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:37 AM To set the record straight Says:

Reply to #119  
Shushan Purim Says:

To #112, Wow. There is at least one Oveid Hashem on each table at 45th St. So you claim at least 16 Ovdei Hashem in your group. Thats some accomplishment.
What are the rest of the people?
You also ask a good question, Did you think they would skip Reb Naftulche and put him in the gargage can? Ask yourself the same question. Did you think the the holy Rov Z"l would dump his beloved son R' Ben Zion (after R' Naftulcha) and place him in the garbage, and want a grandchild should take over his chassidus he built.

It is ironic - how people davening in a basement, who don't own any of the buildings they are in, have not paid their melamdim or teachers for 5 months, have not paid their kolel yingeleit for 7 months, had to start school 2 weeks late, have not paid vendors 5 months, -- call the people at 48th st. depressed and mooreh schoreh.

The rest are aspiring ovdei Hashem. Some tables have one oved Hashem, some two, some three and some even five or more. The rest are choosheve balei batim, kovei’ah itim leTorah, future ovdei Hashem be’emes, and in the mean time are mekadesh shem Shomayim and bring kooved to Bobov wherever they go; be it in the five towns or in Bangkok.

Regarding your second point. If the Ruv zichchoinoi levroocha Reb Naftule would have been maarich yoomim like his father do you think that the Free’erdiger Ruv zichchoinoi levroocha Reb Shloime would have wanted Reb Ben Zion to take over??? Avadeh nisht; then mah li five years, mah li twenty five years? Der Free’erdiger Ruv Z”L said that “after Reb Naftultche iz ess mer nisht meins”.

As far as “mooreh schoireh”, it is a “milseh de’avideh legliya” and a metziyess; just watch them in action. You can not be happy in what a rut you have placed yourself. To the world you are boozi imevizeh.

194

 Nov 24, 2009 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #181  
169 Says:

If your problem is with this particular Beis Din, please remember it's a zabl"a, which means that it was picked and chosen by the parties themselves. If the parties are unhappy, they can blame only themselves, since you admit that "In the entire world Din Toras are not conducted in this fashion". BTW, as I understand it's the plaintiffs who are suffering from this style, why then dont they just drop their claim?

You're not an Am Haaretz, and you know good and well that once a Baal Din
commits himself to a Bais Din, he is Halachicly bound and may not go to another one.
Just because they chose a certain Bais Din, does not give the Batei Dinim
the right to distort Din Torahs and to teach the plaintiffs to LIE and be an
accomplice to so much theft
You are using your cunning style to confuse the readers of this media. But
it is about time that your true colors surface.
But our problem (American Jewry) is not only about this "particular Bais Din"
It is about every Bais Din that "this little exclusive" CLUB is involved in.
You distroy the holiest institution of Klal Yisroel and you create a Churban.
You are responsible for Yidden going to Secular Courts, many Machlokes,
People's loss of money and Nechosim and loads of Shfichas Domim.
By the time the Din Tora's are over, or the Plaintiffs are sick and tired
and reach a settlement, both parties are drained physically and financially,
I wonder whether you realize what damage you have caused in this ordeal.
Klall Yisroel need Yeshuas, you could play a MAJOR role in bringing them
about.

195

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:01 AM Anonymous Says:

I don't get it there was aufruf on 48 this shabbos and RZG their expert mechanich for young buchirim and brother of bal simcha and one of their bnei aliya did not show at 48 and who doesn't goe to simchos

196

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:13 AM Dvorah Says:

I am a woman studying for my Doctorate in Psychology at Touro. My brother just gave me copies of the discussion about the two Bobovs.

I am going to use these responses as a "case study" for my class. All these responses from the so called 45th Street chassidim are so negative and kvetchy. They appear to be gloomy, seeing the worst in the bet din process. Calling the Bet Din all names and they appear to be preparing themselves for a major loss. They have all the excuses ready. The Bet Din is corrupt, it took too long, they stole the will (tzavaoh), they threatened people , people stayed because they were comfortable.

There is a thread of unhappiness and bitterness (My mother used to call it a (tzeklaptkeit). Alot of anger and downtrodden emotions.

I am not a doctor yet, but I think it is very unhealthy for the people to walk around with these depressing feelings. It is no good for them or their spouses. The fights that the Rebbes are having are between themselves. There is no reason to place yourself in a situation where you are waking around totally farshtunken and bitter. I am sure it will bring a lively class discussion. Thank you

197

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #183  
Anonymous Says:

What eidele? They just didn't have a chance to show their true color. It was a best kept secret that finally came out!

sorry to let you know that BOBOV is (was) from the niceest chsedes in the world

200

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #176  
Shlome Zalman Says:

It appears from most of the comments above that the qualifications that we are looking for to qualify as Bobover Rebbe, which the 45th Street Rebbe Harav Ungar has and the one on 48th Street Harav Halberstam does not is to be a big choshiveh talmud chochom, a shtarkeh ehrliche yid, a yiras shomayim, a mekarev ruchokim, honest, have tremendous yeechus atzmee. I have a great idea, which I am sure that the 45th Street Rebbe and chassidim would also agree to (it is said above he is a great baal m'vateh - he stays away from machlokes).

I would like to recommend Harav Hagoan Rebbe Berl Povarsky who has every one of the above attributes and alot more to become the next Bobover Rebbe. He is one of the big talmidei chachomim of our generation. It would be a great kiddush hashem. and there would be sholom al yisroel.

Excellent idea. I just phoned him and he said that he is not interested; he’ll leave Bobov for Bobov. So 45 Street has found the qualified one in Bobov.

201

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #195  
Anonymous Says:

I don't get it there was aufruf on 48 this shabbos and RZG their expert mechanich for young buchirim and brother of bal simcha and one of their bnei aliya did not show at 48 and who doesn't goe to simchos

45 streeters who don't go to 48 street for a simcha is because they are afraid that they’ll be carried out as has happened to so many people.

202

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #195  
Anonymous Says:

I don't get it there was aufruf on 48 this shabbos and RZG their expert mechanich for young buchirim and brother of bal simcha and one of their bnei aliya did not show at 48 and who doesn't goe to simchos

You want to know WHY - the ROYAL treatment he got there last year. It was a CHARPA and a SHANDA to treat any YId like that - let alone to be MEVAZEH a TALMID CHUCHIM. They made a CHOIZEK out of him, making him fall and spill his becher when he made kiddush. Such BIZYOINIS . Guess what YESH DIN V"YESH DAYAN. And people like you who blindly take sides without knowing the facts(or ignoring them) will ALL be ACCOMPLICES when the day of judgement comes.

203

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #196  
Dvorah Says:

I am a woman studying for my Doctorate in Psychology at Touro. My brother just gave me copies of the discussion about the two Bobovs.

I am going to use these responses as a "case study" for my class. All these responses from the so called 45th Street chassidim are so negative and kvetchy. They appear to be gloomy, seeing the worst in the bet din process. Calling the Bet Din all names and they appear to be preparing themselves for a major loss. They have all the excuses ready. The Bet Din is corrupt, it took too long, they stole the will (tzavaoh), they threatened people , people stayed because they were comfortable.

There is a thread of unhappiness and bitterness (My mother used to call it a (tzeklaptkeit). Alot of anger and downtrodden emotions.

I am not a doctor yet, but I think it is very unhealthy for the people to walk around with these depressing feelings. It is no good for them or their spouses. The fights that the Rebbes are having are between themselves. There is no reason to place yourself in a situation where you are waking around totally farshtunken and bitter. I am sure it will bring a lively class discussion. Thank you

Once you become a doctor your services will greatly be needed there in 48, especially after the psak din of the din Torah. It is obvious from the fact that your brother sent you this, that you both have a sheichos to Bobov, and specifically to Bobov 48. It is also obvious from your assessment of the mood in 45 that you have no idea what goes on there. Do yourself a favor and get to know all the facts to have a “case study” grounded in reality.

204

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:31 PM Anonymous Says:

All my freinds from bobov let us stand on the sidelines and watch them destroy themselves. Most of their kehilla are trying to get rid of their roshei hakehillo ZAR and I'd. They have made a vad to try to take control away from them. The vad quits about 3 times a week because RMD supports his own henchmen who propped him up to be rebbe so let's just watch and enjoy the ride

205

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:33 PM high tech Says:

Reply to #196  
Dvorah Says:

I am a woman studying for my Doctorate in Psychology at Touro. My brother just gave me copies of the discussion about the two Bobovs.

I am going to use these responses as a "case study" for my class. All these responses from the so called 45th Street chassidim are so negative and kvetchy. They appear to be gloomy, seeing the worst in the bet din process. Calling the Bet Din all names and they appear to be preparing themselves for a major loss. They have all the excuses ready. The Bet Din is corrupt, it took too long, they stole the will (tzavaoh), they threatened people , people stayed because they were comfortable.

There is a thread of unhappiness and bitterness (My mother used to call it a (tzeklaptkeit). Alot of anger and downtrodden emotions.

I am not a doctor yet, but I think it is very unhealthy for the people to walk around with these depressing feelings. It is no good for them or their spouses. The fights that the Rebbes are having are between themselves. There is no reason to place yourself in a situation where you are waking around totally farshtunken and bitter. I am sure it will bring a lively class discussion. Thank you

either you are an 48streeter or something is wrong with you.... waisting time on this.

206

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:36 PM matnes yad Says:

Reply to #195  
Anonymous Says:

I don't get it there was aufruf on 48 this shabbos and RZG their expert mechanich for young buchirim and brother of bal simcha and one of their bnei aliya did not show at 48 and who doesn't goe to simchos

i guess they "explained" it to him
how many petch does he have to get ????????

207

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:39 PM Beth din Says:

Reply to #195  
Anonymous Says:

I don't get it there was aufruf on 48 this shabbos and RZG their expert mechanich for young buchirim and brother of bal simcha and one of their bnei aliya did not show at 48 and who doesn't goe to simchos

in my opinion bobov 45 should support this beth din
if it wouldnt shlepp and would finish in '05 you wouldnt get even 10%, now i see the votes came in 29-35% in a 90 million dollar din torah 30%....not bad

208

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #196  
Dvorah Says:

I am a woman studying for my Doctorate in Psychology at Touro. My brother just gave me copies of the discussion about the two Bobovs.

I am going to use these responses as a "case study" for my class. All these responses from the so called 45th Street chassidim are so negative and kvetchy. They appear to be gloomy, seeing the worst in the bet din process. Calling the Bet Din all names and they appear to be preparing themselves for a major loss. They have all the excuses ready. The Bet Din is corrupt, it took too long, they stole the will (tzavaoh), they threatened people , people stayed because they were comfortable.

There is a thread of unhappiness and bitterness (My mother used to call it a (tzeklaptkeit). Alot of anger and downtrodden emotions.

I am not a doctor yet, but I think it is very unhealthy for the people to walk around with these depressing feelings. It is no good for them or their spouses. The fights that the Rebbes are having are between themselves. There is no reason to place yourself in a situation where you are waking around totally farshtunken and bitter. I am sure it will bring a lively class discussion. Thank you

You need to be enlightened. The fights are not between the rebbes themselves, but between their kehilos. I am at 45. I was thrown out of my beis hamedrash. I am a victim of this theft. I am rejected by my relatives at 48. I get heckled when coming to a simcha at 48 when invited by the baal simcho. I am not negative or kvetchy at all. In fact, I enjoy life, and am full of shevach and hoda'ah to Hashem for all the good I have. I am simply angered when I am not given a return greeting, am excluded from invitations to simchos, and have relatives who boycott my simchos. I am angered that this is done under the name Bobov. Boruch Hashem, I have a rebbe and a bais hamedrash of decent people, more concerned with avodas Hashem than with victory over other forces. Perhaps this thread is not an accurate study of moods of the kehilos. You would do better with direct contacts. Maybe some emotions exist because of some negative behaviors. Maybe there are ganovim and liars around. Maybe there is perceived tranquility in places where there is really atzvus and denial.

209

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #196  
Dvorah Says:

I am a woman studying for my Doctorate in Psychology at Touro. My brother just gave me copies of the discussion about the two Bobovs.

I am going to use these responses as a "case study" for my class. All these responses from the so called 45th Street chassidim are so negative and kvetchy. They appear to be gloomy, seeing the worst in the bet din process. Calling the Bet Din all names and they appear to be preparing themselves for a major loss. They have all the excuses ready. The Bet Din is corrupt, it took too long, they stole the will (tzavaoh), they threatened people , people stayed because they were comfortable.

There is a thread of unhappiness and bitterness (My mother used to call it a (tzeklaptkeit). Alot of anger and downtrodden emotions.

I am not a doctor yet, but I think it is very unhealthy for the people to walk around with these depressing feelings. It is no good for them or their spouses. The fights that the Rebbes are having are between themselves. There is no reason to place yourself in a situation where you are waking around totally farshtunken and bitter. I am sure it will bring a lively class discussion. Thank you

I'm not Bobov and am not interested in their Chassidus.

I'm interested in the Bais Din's system that happens to be involved in this
Din Tora and so many others.
This happened to be an opportunity to air out the opinion of the "Silent
Majority", who will not remain silent so much longer.
There are hundreds of victims of these Corrupt people who manipulate
these Din Toras. They have made fortunes on people's blood. They have
caused splits in families. They have caused people to become ill.
They have caused financial losses. They play a wicked game!
It is high time they take a Din Vecheshbon and change their "style".

Yeish Din Byisroel, there is a perfect Cheshbon in Shamayim and they
will be accountable.
This Bobov Din Tora is being followed worldwide, not neccessarily by
Chassidim, they are anxious to see this end and played out Al Pi Din.
The truth should be sought and they should reach a Psak.
Running a Din Tora is an awesome responsibility and they should take
their responsibility seriously and ehrlich.
A

210

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM Answer to a question Says:

Reply to #125  
Pupa Chosid Says:

As an outsider, we dont understand one thing. Why wasn't the oldest son - in - law (I think its Harav Rubin) made Rebbe? Is there something in the shilchin Aruch that the oldest shouldn't get it? Because maybe if the oldest was made Rebbe then there wouldn't be the machlokes of who should be. It would probably go to the oldest than to a brother.

You do deserve an answer and I’ll answer it to you. The answer in a nutshell is because Rabbi Rubin didn’t want. Now why didn’t he want? To understand the answer to this, you need to first know the reason why 45th Street was created. By now the world already knows that over half of Bobov had the “guts” to leave on Yied Beis Adar 5765 because they wouldn’t allow the blotting out of Reb Naftule from the history of Bobov.

Continued in next post.

211

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #196  
Dvorah Says:

I am a woman studying for my Doctorate in Psychology at Touro. My brother just gave me copies of the discussion about the two Bobovs.

I am going to use these responses as a "case study" for my class. All these responses from the so called 45th Street chassidim are so negative and kvetchy. They appear to be gloomy, seeing the worst in the bet din process. Calling the Bet Din all names and they appear to be preparing themselves for a major loss. They have all the excuses ready. The Bet Din is corrupt, it took too long, they stole the will (tzavaoh), they threatened people , people stayed because they were comfortable.

There is a thread of unhappiness and bitterness (My mother used to call it a (tzeklaptkeit). Alot of anger and downtrodden emotions.

I am not a doctor yet, but I think it is very unhealthy for the people to walk around with these depressing feelings. It is no good for them or their spouses. The fights that the Rebbes are having are between themselves. There is no reason to place yourself in a situation where you are waking around totally farshtunken and bitter. I am sure it will bring a lively class discussion. Thank you

Mrs Psychologist - read comment 195 and tell me is that called NORMAL? To take a story totally OUT of context, TURN it UPSIDE down and have the AUDACITY to post it. Sure the man won't show up if he was degraded B'RABBIM and nobody even came to his defense. Nothing on 48 st happens without the APPROVAL of the CHIEF. Some society - the same that brought Churban Bais Hamikdosh. You still impressed?

212

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:52 PM Answer to a question Says:

Reply to #125  
Pupa Chosid Says:

As an outsider, we dont understand one thing. Why wasn't the oldest son - in - law (I think its Harav Rubin) made Rebbe? Is there something in the shilchin Aruch that the oldest shouldn't get it? Because maybe if the oldest was made Rebbe then there wouldn't be the machlokes of who should be. It would probably go to the oldest than to a brother.

Continued from previous post

If not for the kooved of Reb Naftoole both son in laws would have picked themselves up and left as if they were never born. Had Reb Ben Zion been rooyi to be rebbe, and behaved in the interim then they would have stayed as chasidim too. But because of this sickness which bred the rishess to put Reb Naftuleh out of the pale, these two son-in laws after a lot of soul searching came to the conclusion that it is the rootzen haBoreh for them to claim what is according to halacha theirs, and that rishess shall not awarded; and to seek to go according to the Shilchen oorich, where a son in law inherits before a brother.

Their boirer said that if one of them doesn’t accept the title Bobover Rebbe then all will be lost; therefore they had no choice but make that decision in one day on 13 Ader. The Ruv Rabbi Rubin said that he doesn’t want to be Rebbe, and the Rebbe said that if Rabbi Rubin won’t be Ruv then he won’t be Rebbe either, takeh because it isn’t fair to Rabbi Rubin; and that’s how it happened that the Ruv made sure that Rabbi Unger should become Rebbe. These two brother-in-laws love each other and tried to give each other the bigger kooved.

213

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #196  
Dvorah Says:

I am a woman studying for my Doctorate in Psychology at Touro. My brother just gave me copies of the discussion about the two Bobovs.

I am going to use these responses as a "case study" for my class. All these responses from the so called 45th Street chassidim are so negative and kvetchy. They appear to be gloomy, seeing the worst in the bet din process. Calling the Bet Din all names and they appear to be preparing themselves for a major loss. They have all the excuses ready. The Bet Din is corrupt, it took too long, they stole the will (tzavaoh), they threatened people , people stayed because they were comfortable.

There is a thread of unhappiness and bitterness (My mother used to call it a (tzeklaptkeit). Alot of anger and downtrodden emotions.

I am not a doctor yet, but I think it is very unhealthy for the people to walk around with these depressing feelings. It is no good for them or their spouses. The fights that the Rebbes are having are between themselves. There is no reason to place yourself in a situation where you are waking around totally farshtunken and bitter. I am sure it will bring a lively class discussion. Thank you

Anything in 45 st mentality that is NOT 100% TRUTH? Anything on 48 st mentality that is NOT 100% SHEKER?

214

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

Who will the next 45 Rebbe will be? Someone Berkowitz or Lieberman? How will that continue the Halberstam/Tzanz/Bobov legacy?

Realistically, how does Unger qualify as a Bobover Rebbe? And what part of Bobov do the 45ths identify with anyway? 48 has 99% of the chushive zikney Bobov from der heim; 45 is just a bunch of Medicaid Hotheaded guys who needed some recognition/attention.

The remaining children of the Kedushas Zion support 45. Almost the entire Twersky family grandchildren of the Kedushas Zion support 45th street. The Frishvaasers the Stempels, the Veitz’s and most descendants of the Kedushas Zion support 45.

As to ziknei Bobov; there are very few and from them a few are in 45 and a few more in 48. The difference being that those in 45 are chasidim of the rebbe in 45 and those in 48, almost all are NOT chasidim, they don’t take his advice on anything, only just see the place as convenient in their elder years.

The question should be turned around "how does RBZ qualify as a Bobover Rebbe"? Halachacally, spiritually, and mentchlichkeitly.

215

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:06 PM Pupa chosid Says:

I asked my two questions today of an older 45th streeter and he told me that the answer to one is the answer to the other.

Simple. Kol D'Alim G'var. They strong armed Harav Rubin to give up his seat as Rebbe. and they strong armed The Rebbes son Reb Yossef to give up his first seat to the Rebbes son in law.

Maaseh Uvos Siman L'bunim.
As the Rebbe Unger is fighting with his older brother in law Rav Rubin
So has he arranged his children to fight between themselves

a continuation of sinas chinam

216

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #153  
Boro Park Yid Says:

if if the psak will be that R'BZ must leave the 48 shul and relocate to another place, how many people will follow him? and how many people will stay in shul?

This question shouldn't be too difficult to answer. After what Bobov has gone through in the last 5 years, things have become crystallized. Therefore my educated guess is about 20 percent of all of Bobov. It can be debated if the number is a percent or two under 20 or over 20 percent, but it's in that ballpark for sure.

217

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #204  
Anonymous Says:

All my freinds from bobov let us stand on the sidelines and watch them destroy themselves. Most of their kehilla are trying to get rid of their roshei hakehillo ZAR and I'd. They have made a vad to try to take control away from them. The vad quits about 3 times a week because RMD supports his own henchmen who propped him up to be rebbe so let's just watch and enjoy the ride

I am MOCHEH at being mevazeh a Tamid chuchem and yiras Shomayim. Rabbi Unger doesn't have any henchmen, and you need to go ask him mechillah. Knowing him as a good heart; he'll surely forgive you.

218

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #215  
Pupa chosid Says:

I asked my two questions today of an older 45th streeter and he told me that the answer to one is the answer to the other.

Simple. Kol D'Alim G'var. They strong armed Harav Rubin to give up his seat as Rebbe. and they strong armed The Rebbes son Reb Yossef to give up his first seat to the Rebbes son in law.

Maaseh Uvos Siman L'bunim.
As the Rebbe Unger is fighting with his older brother in law Rav Rubin
So has he arranged his children to fight between themselves

a continuation of sinas chinam

Please take it back; read my two posts where I "answer your question". Punkt farkert it is because of mentchlichkeit and ahavah, not sinas chinom.

219

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:

do u know that the 45 had hired bouncers to take over the all the buildingssfter r'naftulas zt'l levaya they were there by the levaya to lock out 48 from allthe nuildings including the beis hamadrash but someone notified the 48 and they notified the police and the police told the bouncers(i saw them big heavy guys) if they dont leave they will be locked up they left
in the begining 45 said that they and only they are bobov but as the din tora progressed and they saw that they might lose they change their tone and said that there could be two bobovs what losers

220

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:57 PM Chanie Says:

Being in the same study group as Dvorah, Could we claify some information of what took place on Motzei Shabbos 21 adar, in the house of the last Rebbe of Bobov R' Naftali ZT"L.

1. How high was the Rebbes fever
2. Which one of the son in laws ordered that he be put into a cold bath to reduce his fever
3. Why wasn't Hatzala called till he was fully dressed
4. To which dinner were they so eager to go to that night, that it was woth the risk of putting him in a permanent coma (which actually happened)
5. Was it Kolel Chibas Yerushlayim or Zibenbergen
The answers to these questions may answer most of the questions raised above.

221

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #195  
Anonymous Says:

I don't get it there was aufruf on 48 this shabbos and RZG their expert mechanich for young buchirim and brother of bal simcha and one of their bnei aliya did not show at 48 and who doesn't goe to simchos

Ever hear the expression "A NOGAYA IS ERGER VI A BLINDER " Why do you say a HALBE MYSA(1/2 a story) Last year when this Chushiva Talmid Chochom went to a Simcha on 48 St he was TRIPPED - made to fall flat on his NOSE! That's not called shofech domim - what is

222

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #221  
Anonymous Says:

Ever hear the expression "A NOGAYA IS ERGER VI A BLINDER " Why do you say a HALBE MYSA(1/2 a story) Last year when this Chushiva Talmid Chochom went to a Simcha on 48 St he was TRIPPED - made to fall flat on his NOSE! That's not called shofech domim - what is

Think of the acrayus(responsibility) you carry for BASHMUTZING an ehrlicher yid especially when it's 100% false. you want a front row seat i GEHENOM with the others on 48????

223

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #220  
Chanie Says:

Being in the same study group as Dvorah, Could we claify some information of what took place on Motzei Shabbos 21 adar, in the house of the last Rebbe of Bobov R' Naftali ZT"L.

1. How high was the Rebbes fever
2. Which one of the son in laws ordered that he be put into a cold bath to reduce his fever
3. Why wasn't Hatzala called till he was fully dressed
4. To which dinner were they so eager to go to that night, that it was woth the risk of putting him in a permanent coma (which actually happened)
5. Was it Kolel Chibas Yerushlayim or Zibenbergen
The answers to these questions may answer most of the questions raised above.

We have heard these accusations fly before. They are so ridiculous as to defy logic. If that happened, shouldn't the ones responsible have been investigated for attempted murder? Does anyone think that the wife (daughter) would remain married to a man who tried to murder her father? This accusation is repeated as if it were fact. Shame on you.

224

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #221  
Anonymous Says:

Ever hear the expression "A NOGAYA IS ERGER VI A BLINDER " Why do you say a HALBE MYSA(1/2 a story) Last year when this Chushiva Talmid Chochom went to a Simcha on 48 St he was TRIPPED - made to fall flat on his NOSE! That's not called shofech domim - what is

Everybody has a differnt story of what happened to him did u ever think of writing novels?

225

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
Anonymous Says:

Remember who HAYADAYIM YEDEI EISAV used to belong to! Here they belong to the leaders of Bobov 48. The Rebbe has some team of henchmen.

Let us remember who it belonged to for the 5 years leading up to the split.

226

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #224  
Anonymous Says:

Everybody has a differnt story of what happened to him did u ever think of writing novels?

How about asking him? I did. He is a quiet person, and doesn't circulate telling stories. He did not say a thing until asked. He specifically stated that once he was attacked, it is unwise to return. You all can write all the novels you want, but they will be shelved under fiction. This is what he said, not someone else's spin on it.

227

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #177  
Anonymous Says:

I will reply to all your questions, with one question, are you the smartest Bais Din in the entire universe? Whom are you trying to fool? In the entire world Din Toras are not conducted in this fashion and you are becoming "notorious" for " your" style.
You do not behave like a Yidden that believe in Hashem, nor like Yidden that have
a Yiddish heart.
Your questions and answers are very proffessional, but after 120 years, I hate
to inform you; they will not get you too far.
"To thine own self be truthful..."

Even GRAUS won't have a defense before Hashem. Here he thinks it's a JOKE - after 120 years he won't be laughing anymore.

228

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:57 PM Rif Says:

I agree that the stepmother is at the chore of the whole dispute. She never accepted Reb Naftultshe as heir to the Bobover trone, she festered the hatred ever since she married Reb Shloime zatsal. She's paying the price.......

229

 Nov 24, 2009 at 04:00 PM emes Says:

Reply to #223  
Anonymous Says:

We have heard these accusations fly before. They are so ridiculous as to defy logic. If that happened, shouldn't the ones responsible have been investigated for attempted murder? Does anyone think that the wife (daughter) would remain married to a man who tried to murder her father? This accusation is repeated as if it were fact. Shame on you.

murder charges are pending they are waiting for the din torah to end,they might work out a plea bargin

230

 Nov 24, 2009 at 05:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

they are fighting for the others rights to be dismantelrd. Why? Why cant there be 2 Bobover rebbes. The looser will maintain his own stature anyway? Y'eha Sholom.

Because Bobov is not Spinka. If you would be on the losing side, would you change your name.

231

 Nov 24, 2009 at 05:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #153  
Boro Park Yid Says:

if if the psak will be that R'BZ must leave the 48 shul and relocate to another place, how many people will follow him? and how many people will stay in shul?

What does a 48ter answer to this question? how many will follow R'bz to another location

233

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #220  
Chanie Says:

Being in the same study group as Dvorah, Could we claify some information of what took place on Motzei Shabbos 21 adar, in the house of the last Rebbe of Bobov R' Naftali ZT"L.

1. How high was the Rebbes fever
2. Which one of the son in laws ordered that he be put into a cold bath to reduce his fever
3. Why wasn't Hatzala called till he was fully dressed
4. To which dinner were they so eager to go to that night, that it was woth the risk of putting him in a permanent coma (which actually happened)
5. Was it Kolel Chibas Yerushlayim or Zibenbergen
The answers to these questions may answer most of the questions raised above.

Good luck with that, and with your studies....
If you're really after a doctorate, I suggest a less comlicated subject. In this story, everything will be hearsay, and you will get minimal facts.

234

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Comments #215 and #219 are totally false. Shame on you. Midvar sheker tirchok. If you want to claim something is yours, go ahead and claim. You might be right, you might be wrong. But the lies in the above numbered comments are disgusting, and reflect pure sina'as chinom. Shame on you. If you had any midos, you would express yourself in a bekavodike manner that should give the impressin of being a mentch and a chossid. Whoever wrote these comments makes a bizayon out of chassidus. Go learn some mussar. Try the Kav Hayashar and Rachamei Ho'ov.

236

 Nov 24, 2009 at 05:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #146  
Answers Please Says:

Just a few questions: Would'nt anybody at a Din Torah want the Beis Din to listen patiently to all his arguments, even those that his opponent does not consider important? Would anyone want a Beth Din to tell him: Be quiet! your argument is irrelevant? Are jokes cracked at a Din Torah, at which both parties give a laugh, maybe an effective tool to break the ice and bring the parties closer? Has anyone checked how long cases for similar amounts of money drag in court? Had'nt any psak given earlier - in this particular case - brought out more hurt feelings and hatered? Might the Beth Din be intentionally dragging the case so that every side realizes that basically it's a situation that can NOT be solved with just a psak, but rather with a living reality? Is the high cost possibly intended to give the parties an incentive to finish? Did anyone research if these 5 dayanim have a record of prolonging other Din Torah cases? Is it really that easy to bash Beis Din in general and in this case dayanim hand-picked by the parties?

I just read this rediculous reply, I, too am a victim of your tactics. It so happens to be
that you were my Toyen, and off course I won. Nevertheless. I witnessed you
rattling stories (which made me cringe-as this wasted time, cost me money)
the tales were totally out of place and uncalled for. Your jokes were to redicule
the other party, and throw them off their feet and their face turn red in shame.
You brought up shameful issues that were not relevant for my defense. I did not
want to contradict you or stop you, because I did not want to be on your left side.
I must add, that your jokes were never pointed at me (your plaintiff) it was always
targeted at my poor opponent.
But to this day I live with regret that I was not Moiche. I think I will yet ask the
other party Mechila because I don't want to go to Gehenom for hearing another
person being insulted and remaining quiet. (Like Kamzto and Bar Kamtzo)
We want to be zoiche to Binyen Bais Hamikdosh, and a Dor that is not zoiche
to see it built, is as though it was distroyed in his days.

237

 Nov 24, 2009 at 06:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Din torah guy Says:

"a beis din that only takes minutes"...

1. why would it be considered a GOOD thing to submit a case without allowing substantial time for consideration?

2. the Bobov'er din torah has actually rendered 9 rulings since its ensemble in May of 2005.

3. the Bobov'er din torah convenes every month of the year, for a full week. this results in 25% of the annual workload of the 5 dayanim. - no other court, secular or otherwise, has ever acted in such urgency.

(more later)

You must be joking "a beis din that only takes minutes" is that what I said? You are
a real cynic, I said that a "Bais Din should TAKE minutes" as in any decent Bais
Din and in Court, which would make every word spoken accountable. Every word
should be recorded.
The 9 rulings were on very minor matters, and as far as your workload...
you are truly overworked and underpaid!!!!

238

 Nov 24, 2009 at 06:29 PM a satmerer yungerman Says:

Reply to #185  
Anonymous Says:

IF THEY CAN GO TO A DIN TORAH, WHY CAN'T SATMAR DO THE SAME THING ?

if zalman leib will go to a different beis din except satmer then his brother rabbi aron shlit"a is willing to go to with him,so far he's not willing to go with him because he only wants to go to satmer beis din

why doesent he want to go to beis din
jews are not allowed to go to court only with beis din's permission........

a satmer yungerman

239

 Nov 24, 2009 at 07:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #219  
Anonymous Says:

do u know that the 45 had hired bouncers to take over the all the buildingssfter r'naftulas zt'l levaya they were there by the levaya to lock out 48 from allthe nuildings including the beis hamadrash but someone notified the 48 and they notified the police and the police told the bouncers(i saw them big heavy guys) if they dont leave they will be locked up they left
in the begining 45 said that they and only they are bobov but as the din tora progressed and they saw that they might lose they change their tone and said that there could be two bobovs what losers

With such an IMAGINATION - why don't you try Hollywood? You have the WILDEST imagination ever. Phony Balony from HEAD to TOE, just like the REST of 48 St. You should be ASHAMED of yourself!

240

 Nov 24, 2009 at 07:02 PM yossi Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

they dont get a shkoiach for not going to court. secondly noone wins in a machlokes...
i can already see the end of the bobov chasidus....

nonsense! no end is seen. it will just be two bobov chasidus instesd of one.
like in all other chasidus that were divided.

241

 Nov 24, 2009 at 11:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #195  
Anonymous Says:

I don't get it there was aufruf on 48 this shabbos and RZG their expert mechanich for young buchirim and brother of bal simcha and one of their bnei aliya did not show at 48 and who doesn't goe to simchos

Before you post comments - how about getting background info? Like how was this MAN treated the last time he came to 48? If a Sefer Torah which is parchment FALLS, a kehila has to FAST. If a PERSON , a LIVING SEFER TORAH is thrown down in a Bais Medrash -- what should the punishment for that be? Hashem has a lot of patience but just wait and see --every deed is recorded and punishment fits the CRIME. It won't be funny -- even Graus won't be able to HELP!

242

 Nov 25, 2009 at 12:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #97  
To set it straight Says:

#1 The one who named him Rav Hatzooir testified by Beth Din that it did "NOT" mean that automatically Reb BZ would succeed his brother. Reb BZ begged for that title, and the Bobover Ruv Reb Naftule ZT"L himself called it "ah title oon ah mitel". Sof maseh bemachshooveh techileh the purpose for the title "Rav Hatzooir" was so that they could later claim that it meant that he is next in line. #2 To dispel a lie, those weren't "votes". It was for Beth Din to see for "themselves" who and how many want what. Those who were questioned answered a number of questions. The results were made public; therefore 48 Streeters were intimidated and forced to go answer the questionere. That is the reason why there were about 300 cancelled questioneres from people who came out of fear but told Beth Din that they don't want this on their conscience and they are “mevatel" their answers. From 45 Street not even one person cancelled their answers as no one was forced to go & answer. Then even after all of 48 Street’s shenanigans, 45th Street had 31.8 to 52.7% for their Rebbe, depending on how and whom you count. That speaks volumes, as everyone knows that this means double in open and fair elections.

That is a lie. Beis DIn officially accepted the votes as 69% to 48 and 31 to 45.

243

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #228  
Rif Says:

I agree that the stepmother is at the chore of the whole dispute. She never accepted Reb Naftultshe as heir to the Bobover trone, she festered the hatred ever since she married Reb Shloime zatsal. She's paying the price.......

shame on you for talking this way.

244

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #238  
a satmerer yungerman Says:

if zalman leib will go to a different beis din except satmer then his brother rabbi aron shlit"a is willing to go to with him,so far he's not willing to go with him because he only wants to go to satmer beis din

why doesent he want to go to beis din
jews are not allowed to go to court only with beis din's permission........

a satmer yungerman

it works both ways if they (both sides) "REALLY" wanted to go to a din torah it would have happened. It's very easy to blame the other side.

245

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
Pupa Chosid Says:

As an outsider, we dont understand one thing. Why wasn't the oldest son - in - law (I think its Harav Rubin) made Rebbe? Is there something in the shilchin Aruch that the oldest shouldn't get it? Because maybe if the oldest was made Rebbe then there wouldn't be the machlokes of who should be. It would probably go to the oldest than to a brother.

when 45 was asked this question in beis din, they replied that Unger is better at leading a fight. It's true. I promise.

246

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
Shushan Purim Says:

To #112, Wow. There is at least one Oveid Hashem on each table at 45th St. So you claim at least 16 Ovdei Hashem in your group. Thats some accomplishment.
What are the rest of the people?
You also ask a good question, Did you think they would skip Reb Naftulche and put him in the gargage can? Ask yourself the same question. Did you think the the holy Rov Z"l would dump his beloved son R' Ben Zion (after R' Naftulcha) and place him in the garbage, and want a grandchild should take over his chassidus he built.

It is ironic - how people davening in a basement, who don't own any of the buildings they are in, have not paid their melamdim or teachers for 5 months, have not paid their kolel yingeleit for 7 months, had to start school 2 weeks late, have not paid vendors 5 months, -- call the people at 48th st. depressed and mooreh schoreh.

good points. A Belzer Chussid once said it to me this way: " The Alter Bobover Ruv Zt"l didnt want his own son to take over Reb. Naftultche or his own sons-in-law to take him over, but rather his son's son-in-law should? Ha? does this sound right?

247

 Nov 25, 2009 at 02:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

WHY BOBOV 48 IS GOING TO WIN
#1 he was named Rav Hatzoer
#2 they won the votes by a landslide 70-30%
#3 they have the chasukah
#4 they own the trademark


LAHALACHU "RAV HAZUIER " MEANS ZILCH . "GNG" Gornish Mit Gonish. Why was he named Rav Hatzuier, it was because one of his close hechman, told he should do so, otherwise after 120 from his Brother ZT"L he will not be able to claim nothing. By the way do you know what happened to all The Gold & Silver Kailim That Rabbeini Reb Shlomo ZT"L HAD WHILE HE WAS SICK ? Well this lovely Rav Hatzuire told his Hechman to bring into his house . One more thing, His Eldest sister
was nagging & nudging him, that you promised some of the Kailim! So he said when your husband will make the Mamalah Mookim , then you will recieve it .

248

 Nov 25, 2009 at 02:59 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #132  
Not Quite Says:

You got the picture wrong, its Because when the 45th street people do something that a 48th street person would never think of doing like Rioting on the streets or driving motorcycles Etc. and they say they are from BOBOV! and thats the issue dont embarrass the name BOBOV! call it what ever you want NOT BOBOV!