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New York - Largest Group Of Orthodox Rabbis Ban Chabad Messianic Believers From Joining Org.

Published on: November 23, 2009 03:00 PM
By:  COLLive
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Largest Group Of Orthodox Rabbis Ban Chabad Messianic Believers From Joining Org.Largest Group Of Orthodox Rabbis Ban Chabad Messianic Believers From Joining Org.

New York - A rabbinical Modern Orthodox umbrella group in the U.S. is banning Chabad rabbis with messianic beliefs from membership.

The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA), one of the world’s largest organizations of Orthodox rabbis, includes an “affirmation regarding messianic belief” clause to its membership application.

The clause states: “By checking this box and with my signature below, I affirm that the following resolution, adopted at the RCA’s 1996 Annual Convention, reflects my beliefs:

“In light of disturbing developments which have recently arisen in the Jewish community… declares that there is not and never has been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial and resurrection before completing it.”

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1

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:06 PM Bluh as in Rosen Says:

Finally!!
This is a courageous stance that will safeguard authentic Orthodoxy and will save Chabad Lubavitch from it's extreme elements ,who, if unstopped will have brought and end to it's Orthodox connections

2

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:06 PM Use Your Head Says:

It's about time!

3

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Kudos to the RCA!

4

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:08 PM messianoc not chabad Says:

anyone that's messiabic (i.e. believes the chabad rebbe is still alive) does not deserve to be called chabad

5

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Kol Hakavod

6

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:

I am a Lubavitcher and i agree with this 100%. The yechi-nicks are big trouble makers and they do not represent Lubavitch. They are just a small minority who makes alot of noise and gives authentic Lubavitchers a bad name.

7

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

they say: "there is not and never has been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial and resurrection before completing it".
it seems the did not learn the Gemara in Sanhedrin. and did not see the Sefer by the Holy Abarbanel (Yeshuot Meshicho).

8

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:13 PM Anonymous Says:

well well! so lets cut out pieces of tanach and kabbala to keep the rca happy? oh the gemara about reb avika was moshiach, maybe delete it from the gemara??
balia machlochaks

9

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:10 PM Yamamai Says:

1,2,3 - Your comment wasn't necessary.
4 - Bingo!

10

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:09 PM explain? Says:

Reply to #4  
messianoc not chabad Says:

anyone that's messiabic (i.e. believes the chabad rebbe is still alive) does not deserve to be called chabad

who is "messianoc" or "messiabic"? Sounds like a name of a small rodent from the Amazon... Is your knowledge of inyonei geuloh umoshiach as good as your ability to operate a spellchecker? Or your expertise of who can or cannot be called "chabad"?

11

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:11 PM sitra achra Says:

kudos to the RCA for helping to keep the Jews in exile!
this should save Klal Yisrael from those elements trying to get us out of golus

12

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:30 PM Anonymous Says:

willy boy

I understand what they are doing but i dont think that they are correct to make people sign that mashiach wont first be buried.
How do they know? I dont know, and there is no proof from halacha or gemara, aside from if he was killed, as the rambam says. So to summarize, the RCA has all the rights to mandate as they wish but how could they know the system of the geulah?

Boruch ber

13

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:31 PM Kosher Bagel Says:

I am not a Moshichist but, it is the height of hypocrisy that they suddenly care so much about adhering strictly to halacha on this one issue, but so many other issues for them they believe anything goes. This is convenient hammer used by the MoOrtho to vent their long hatred of Lubav, nothing more.

14

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:32 PM Hello... Says:

Chabad has been around for 200 years, and will continue to be with or WITHOUT the RCA. Its success, has never been about labels, rather the lack of them...as was once famously said "I never become a member of any club that would have me"

15

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Ahhhh!!!! a breath of fresh air. However, how many chabadniks are or want to be in the RCA anyway ? But anyway, I like and support this declaration 1000%.

16

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:36 PM VIN fan Says:

Reply to #1  
Bluh as in Rosen Says:

Finally!!
This is a courageous stance that will safeguard authentic Orthodoxy and will save Chabad Lubavitch from it's extreme elements ,who, if unstopped will have brought and end to it's Orthodox connections

I can’t believe you are calling the RCA “authentic Judaism” the gedolim of old would be a lot more comfortable among Chabadnik’s then these so called rabbi’s. It is always interesting to see organizations taking a stand to show they are relevant. I’m so glad that Modern Orthodox Judaism has solved all its problems and has the time to focus on Chabad.

17

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:37 PM Anonymous Says:

I guess the modern orthdox Rabbis have resolved their own flaws. oops is that a female Rabbi?

18

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:37 PM Says Who??? Says:

Today at 03:08 PM messianic not chabad Says:""anyone that's messianic (i.e. believes the chabad rebbe is still alive) does not deserve to be called chabad""
thats for chabad to say and chabad does not say it

19

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

What about all the torah sources that confirm mashiach could be someone who is not from the living?? zahar etc..

20

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:36 PM good afternoon Says:

I don't think it will make any difference. The RCA is modern Orthodox and those who feel that the Rebbe could still be Moshiach are not vying to join the RCA. I doubt that there will be an outcry from all those thwarted Lubavitchers who would have otherwise been sterling members of the RCA. Chabad has it's own umbrella organization and does not need RCA membership or their approval. Also there is a difference between saying that the Rebbe is still alive and saying that the Rebbe can return as Moshiach.
Also, I really don't think that the average Jew who is not involved with Chabad has any right to complain about what goes on inside Chabad or what politics occur within. How does it affect the life of a non-Lubavitcher? Probably minimally if at all. Maybe some Chabadniks are equally upset at some things that MO Jews do but would not have a policy that excludes them. That is pure sinas chinam. It is real hatred without a purpose.

21

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:40 PM shmuel Says:

Why does the OU put its hechser on lubavitch slaughtered meat and chicken? This has always bothered me.

22

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:44 PM RCA Rabbi Says:

It's a good thing that I joined before they decided to make you sign that.

Whereas I am not Chabad, and do not believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach, I could not sign something stating that there is no place in Judaism for this belief.
Whereas it may not be a common, nor popular belief, to say that it has NO place in Judaism is false, as there ARE mekoros for such a belief.

23

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:47 PM Moty Says:

All i can say is yasher koach to the rca, although its quite disturbing that we havent seen similar stances by too many non modern organizations. this is one of the saddest problems facing torah true judaism today

24

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:42 PM Anonymous Says:

RCA = Modern Rabbis Club of America

In present times of such major calamities befalling Jews worldwide, The Berger-ites just need some more material to stir up sinas chinam. This issue has been chewed over and over ad nausum. Resolution is really irrelevant anyway because RCA is nothing more than a boy scout club for modern rabbis. They have'nt done a thing for klal yisrael.

25

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:50 PM Anonymous Says:

is this the 14th Ani Maamin????????????????

26

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:

what are women doing in the picture? do they allow women rabbis?

27

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:44 PM just wondering Says:

is this news? did they just update their application or has this been on the application since that resolution was passed?

28

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Why can't the RCA take it one step further - To ban Lubavitch meat and Lubavitch Shochtim? If one has false beliefs, should he be shechting meat??

29

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:59 PM Anonymous Says:

looks like the RCA also banned beards and have women as Rabbis. it in the picture.

30

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:59 PM Eli Says:

i guess the Ramchal wouldnt have been able to join the RCA after he wrote his tefilla for the resurrection of Moshiach Ben Dovid.

Or maybe the Radvaz would be banned because he brings down in the name of the Ritva that all the Tzaddikim will be resurrected before the building of the 3rd Bais Hamikdosh (in the middle of Moshiach's mission).

Or perhaps the Anaph Yoseph wouldnt get membership since he writes in his pirush on midresh eicha that Bias Hamoshiach can be after techias Hamaasim.

Well , if the RCA would ban the above then count me out too.

31

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:06 PM Anonymous Says:

but theres a woman seated at a table among men at this convention.

32

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Why do we rehash this nonsense every year?

33

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Excellent idea. Now if the RCA would only add a certification about other minei kefirah they may one day become a fine organization.

34

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:31 PM Toiro Shebalpeh Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

they say: "there is not and never has been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial and resurrection before completing it".
it seems the did not learn the Gemara in Sanhedrin. and did not see the Sefer by the Holy Abarbanel (Yeshuot Meshicho).

I don't think they hold Gemoroh in high (if any) regard - if they did they'd be more concerned about their esteemed members abolishing mechitzos in their shuls or running the Kangaroo conversion courts, etc.. than attempting to mind-controll people's believe system on Moshiach uGeulo

35

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:32 PM Dov Ber Says:


How would the Rebbe fill out this application?

He kept on saying that the Frierdiger Rebbe Z"L is Moshiach. ( V'Hoo Yigoleinu).

I guess, he would not either be acepted by Dr Berger.

36

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

what are women doing in the picture? do they allow women rabbis?

Reply to #26
Some modern orthodox shuls in Manhattan have female "assistants"

37

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Evry year the RCA pulls out the same nonsense as if to say " We still matter"... How pathetic

38

 Nov 23, 2009 at 03:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Many of them believe that the Rebbe did not die, therefore they can sign the declaration and still hold onto their Messianic beliefs.

39

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

What about all the torah sources that confirm mashiach could be someone who is not from the living?? zahar etc..

1. please tell me where those sources are! 2. since when do we hold just from zohar unless shulchan aruch brings it down? (also it is never held against a gemorah!)

40

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:07 PM Anonymous Says:

There are many allusions by the bloggers here that there are mekoros that moshiach will rise from the dead. Can someone please site exactly where these mysterious citations are?

41

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:05 PM Eli Says:

Please take a look at the sefer Tefillos L'Ramchal (author of mesilas Yeshorim) you will find there is a prayer for the resurrection of specifically Moshiach Ben Dovid.

In Medresh Rabba on Eicha , page 103 the pirush Anaf yosef mentions the possibility of Moshiach coming after being resurrected.

In shailos utshuvos Radvaz section 1069 , he describes in detail based on a Ritva that there will be a resurrection of Tzaddikim before the 3rd temple is built (a.k.a. before Moshiach is done with his mission).

Food for Thought.

42

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:07 PM Motte; Says:

I am a Chabad non-meshichist Rabbi in a Young Israel-type Shul. I applied to join the RCA and was appalled by this clause. They don't ask you if you believe in Torah Min Hashamayim or check you are not Neturei Karta or Jews for Yoshke - but this they ask.

For the record I did not join and intend to tell them why. It is actually irrelevant if you are the biggest moshichist or the biggest anti, their mccarthy--ism and witch-hunting is outrageous.

43

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:07 PM professor Says:

Mushachists (mushchassim) will sign and say that they agree to the above statement because the Rebbe was only Mistalek and did not experience death.

44

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:04 PM Puzzled Lubavitcher Says:

as a Lubavitcher, I'm puzzled... Regardless of one's belief of the Rebbe coming back or not... But to sign a paper saying that it can not happen!!!!That is limitting Hashem's powers.
There is very little known concerning what will really be when Mashiach comes, the Rambam himself writes that it's all a puzzle and will really only be known at that time.... Put it this way I would not like to have my name on that paper....

45

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:23 PM shmiel glassman Says:

the rca is entitled to do what it wants BUT WHATS THE POINT? salt on a wound
wether one believes or not is not going to be changed one way or another
the fact remains that the rebbe left " A HUGE VOID" that cant be filled
every lubavitcher believes that the rebbe is still doing ( tzadikim bemisasam....) no diff than one believing that rav pam zatz"l is still beseeching hashem on behalf of SHUVU
even if some lubavitchers take it a few steps further as a way of finding chizuk whats so bad???? i feel sorry for them & hope that they cont. his legacy
i think it revives a dead issue and adds an official wedge between the shluchim and many of these rca rabbonim

46

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

What about all the torah sources that confirm mashiach could be someone who is not from the living?? zahar etc..

In other words, when the Rebbe was alive, you were waiting for him to pass away so he can become Moshiach? What a stupid thought.

47

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
messianoc not chabad Says:

anyone that's messiabic (i.e. believes the chabad rebbe is still alive) does not deserve to be called chabad

To the contrary the MAJORITY of Chabadnicks are messianics, to one degree or another. Many hold out hope and dont castigate those who are openly messianic.

48

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:18 PM Anonymous Says:

a Moshiach risen from the kever? An old story--Christianity!

49

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:17 PM Anonymous Says:

"How would the Rebbe fill out this application?
He kept on saying that the Frierdiger Rebbe Z"L is Moshiach. ( V'Hoo Yigoleinu).
I guess, he would not either be acepted by Dr Berger."

He said Moshiach of the generation, not "The" Moshiach.

50

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:21 PM Anonymous Says:

CHABAD NO BUT WOMAN YES?
WHAT ARE THE TWO WOMAN RABBIS DOING AMONG THE MEN IN THE ABOVE PICTURE I GUESS THAT DOES HAVE A PLACE IN JUDAISM.

tell me whats a bigger issur woman amongst the men, or believing what the gemorah says that moshiach can come from those that already died?(look it up yourself & if you need an artscroll its there also sanhehrin daf 98 amud beis 6 lines from the bottom last 4 words on line amar rav. …dont be scarded to look it up and see rashi while you are there also)
i’ll choose the gemorah over the rca any day.
granted if you dont want to believe that its going to be the lubavitcher rebbe thats your choice, but to say that mosiach cant be from the dead, thats something that should be banned
or perhaps they banned that gemorah also!!!!

51

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:06 PM SimchaB Says:

Reply to #4: What about if they believe he died and will return to complete his mission i.e. a second coming?
Does the RCA resolution include those who hold "men tur dos nit zugen in gass"? (Which is most of the "non-Meshichists")

52

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

1. please tell me where those sources are! 2. since when do we hold just from zohar unless shulchan aruch brings it down? (also it is never held against a gemorah!)

Please tell me which siman in Shulchan Aruch deals with identifying who is Moshiach.

53

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:28 PM rca zionists Says:

RCA zionists should be banned from Judaism
making up halachos (Hallel in Yom Hatzmaut)

54

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:27 PM good evening Says:

Reply to #23  
Moty Says:

All i can say is yasher koach to the rca, although its quite disturbing that we havent seen similar stances by too many non modern organizations. this is one of the saddest problems facing torah true judaism today

You have got to be kidding. You can't find sadder problems than this? There are Torah true Jews who are sick and poverty stricken and ones who can't find shidduchim and ones who can't afford tuition. The crime rate and the divorce rate among the Torah true are up.
What impact do Jews who believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach have on the Torah true population? If they are so busy being Torah true, it shouldn't have any impact. Moty, are the Chabadniks in your area demanding that you proclaim the Rebbe to be Moshiach? Did they say that you couldn't daven in their minyon unless you declared the Rebbe to be Moshiach? Exactly what sad problem did they cause you and your Torah true friends?
I think that one of the saddest problems facing Torah true Judaism today is that we fixate on ideological issues while Jewish children go without food or chinuch. Why doesn't the RCA do something useful like give classes on shalom bayis or doing business in a moral, rather than illegal way? Why don't they get their constituents strenghten achdus between diverent types of Jews? There are so many more positive causes for them to take up.

55

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:27 PM Miheira Satzmiach Says:

Why do they not ask if the prospective member believes in the State of Israel as aschata digiulah, which, based on the Rambam in Hiclos Milachim, all the poskim negated? The issue of who is Moshiach, is no different than when is Moshiach.

56

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:17 PM suggestions to RCA Says:

Reply to #4  
messianoc not chabad Says:

anyone that's messiabic (i.e. believes the chabad rebbe is still alive) does not deserve to be called chabad

this is a good start. Here's a few other clauses they may consider to add to that application:
“In light of the disturbing developments of some elements of the orthodoxy who instead of simply saying the Yud-Gimmel ikorim, actually believe in some or even all of them, ... I the undersigned say “these lunatics should be locked up!”.”

“In light of the ..... of some mishugoyim who still do not hold that Medinas Yisruel is (bedieved) as good as geulo shleimo ve’emitis... etc.”

“In light of ..... some crazies who believe that Moshiach is anyone other than Theodor Herzl or haRav haGoen R’ Obama shlit’a....etc.”

“In light of ..... of some who believe that Moishe Rabbeinu actually came back from Har Sinai with ‘luchos habris’ despite of the clear evidence that he died and was buried as presented by the Samech-Mem and observed by all Klal Yisroel, I hereby affirm our commitment to making the eigel as quickly as possible...”

“In the light of the disturbing developments in Toiro shebaal peh and Kabboloh reffering to the belief in possibility of "moshiach min hameisim" or similar craziness... the undersigned affirms that this is even crazier than wearing Rabbeinu Tam tfillin..

57

 Nov 23, 2009 at 04:08 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

In all fairness to Chabad, their feelings about the Rebbe zal stem from a deep and deserved love and affection for him. He was an amazing leader, a true tzaddik. Nevertheless, the Rebbe did not fulfill the requisite acts as set forth clearly by the Rambam and he was not, is not, will not be mashiach. The meshichists, no matter how frum they act or come off, are at best, cultists, and at worst, not very different from another religion that believes in resurrection. I have no doubt that had the Rebbe, hypothetically, told a follower to be mechalel shabbos for no reason, the follower would have done so. That is not Torah true yahadus and it is dangerous. The RCA has done the right thing and I agree 100% with this move. Whenever I hear meshichists argue, they yell, scream and call names - the true sign that they are wrong. The Rebbe accomplished amazing things and he surely brought the geulah closer, but Gimel Tammuz is proof positive that the Rebbe was not mashiach.

58

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:50 PM Ruvi Says:

Maybe they should start growing beards and not relying on flimsy Heterim to shave... I think they will have no members left....

There zeides all had beards so what happened??? on mishichits bother them.... LOL and the psak from the Chofetz chaim about shaving doesnt??

59

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:50 PM Schmaltzy Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I am a Lubavitcher and i agree with this 100%. The yechi-nicks are big trouble makers and they do not represent Lubavitch. They are just a small minority who makes alot of noise and gives authentic Lubavitchers a bad name.

Nice try # 6. But if they are such a minority why is the hehchal hakodesh of 770 adorned with Yechi Adonenu etc.. Why do many if not most of the shlichim wear yechi adonenu yarmulkas. Sorry but the moshichistim control Chabad. Too bad, because they are otherwise a very worthwhile organization.

60

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:48 PM Anonymous Says:

The RCA does NOT admit women. In fact they do not recognise smicha from chovevi torah ( avi weiss's place).they may be modern but theu are within the bounds of halacha

61

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:43 PM Reality Check Says:

Just what is that "resolution" supposed to resolve? (a) Most Chabad rabbis have serious halachic problems about joining the RCA in the first place because of a number of its questionable policies and hashkafot in the past and present.

(b) Even meshichist rabbis should have no problem signing such a statement. For read it carefully: it opposes those who believe that the messiah has actually come already, and actually started the redemptive process of the ge'ulah, then died, and then iwill be resurrected to finish the redemption (ge'ulah shelemah).
This is altogether different than simply believing that the rebbe, after his resurrection, will definitely be the messiah. Does anyone claim that the rebbe started the actual redemption? Can anyone point to any claims just how this redemption has started - when, where, with what, which messianic prophecies have been fulfilled etc. etc.???

Even Prof. David Berger allows for the possibility of a resurrected individual to be the messiah, i.e., that this does not violate any Jewish (halachic) norms [as he conceded not too long ago on the Seforim Blog]!
(to be cont'd)

62

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:40 PM eitza geber Says:

The Gemara in sanhedrin 58B mentions the option that if Mashiach is from the dead then it would be Daniel. This shows us

A: Mashiach could be from those who died and was resurrected
B: It might not be the lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l but rather Daniel

63

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:40 PM Oy Vey!! Says:

Reply to #22  
RCA Rabbi Says:

It's a good thing that I joined before they decided to make you sign that.

Whereas I am not Chabad, and do not believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach, I could not sign something stating that there is no place in Judaism for this belief.
Whereas it may not be a common, nor popular belief, to say that it has NO place in Judaism is false, as there ARE mekoros for such a belief.

Shows you how small you can be and still be on the RCA!

64

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:37 PM Anonymous Says:

What do the other Chassidus hold regarding this inyan hashkofah? Does Satmar, Vishnitz, New Square or Belz hold the same regarding their Rebbes? Personally, if this hashkofah is true Yishai himself ascended to shomayim without the melech hamaves, so let Yishai be the Moshiach ! I believe there is a gemara that only four tzaddikim ascended to Shomayim without the melech hamaves taking them. Daniel was one, Eliahu was another, I don't remember the fourth....

65

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:36 PM Anonymous Says:

As a non-Lubavitcher follower of the Rebbe, I would rater sign a resolution that no member of RCA can be recognized as an Orthodox Rabbi until he grows a beard and agrees to strike out from the RCA siddur that 1948 was the beggining of the Geula,

66

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

In all fairness to Chabad, their feelings about the Rebbe zal stem from a deep and deserved love and affection for him. He was an amazing leader, a true tzaddik. Nevertheless, the Rebbe did not fulfill the requisite acts as set forth clearly by the Rambam and he was not, is not, will not be mashiach. The meshichists, no matter how frum they act or come off, are at best, cultists, and at worst, not very different from another religion that believes in resurrection. I have no doubt that had the Rebbe, hypothetically, told a follower to be mechalel shabbos for no reason, the follower would have done so. That is not Torah true yahadus and it is dangerous. The RCA has done the right thing and I agree 100% with this move. Whenever I hear meshichists argue, they yell, scream and call names - the true sign that they are wrong. The Rebbe accomplished amazing things and he surely brought the geulah closer, but Gimel Tammuz is proof positive that the Rebbe was not mashiach.

I appreciate your "fairness to Chabad" . However I would like to point out that Eliyahu Hanavi did tell the yidden to be over an aveira... when he came to disprove the ovdei habaal...and the Jews followed in a "cult like way". Was that "true yehadus or dangerous?"...
The answer obviously is the guideline that the Rambam writes. If its told as a "horaas shoh" then we listen!
So in all fairness your statment might have been correct, but it needs context.
No doubt if he told his chassidim to not keep shabbos anymore (hypothetically Ch"v) ... they would not listen. Lets be honest here.

67

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:59 PM I am not Mashchist Says:

This Machchistim of Lubavitch are the destroyers of Lubavitch. Nobody wants to fight them. The Lubavitcher Rabbonim are against them as well as all the Mashpiem and the close people around the Rebbe Z"L are against them.

68

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:56 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

what are women doing in the picture? do they allow women rabbis?

No, she is not a Rabbi; she is the secretary keeping minutes of the meeting, as any organization should do.

69

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:51 PM Reality Check Says:

Prof. Berger's basic position is simply what the RCA resolution states and no more. Thus even meshichists can live with that.

The serious problem with this RCA statement is that it is stupid, inconsistent and hypocritical. It has turned a tangential issue into the main principle of Judaism. They do not ask prospective members whether they affirm Torah min Hashamayim, both Torah shebiktav and Torah shebe'al peh. It is known that many of its members accept Biblical Criticism, thus debying the most fundamental principle of Judaism. Some of its members believe in ordaining women as rabbis, contrary to universally accepted halachah. Some of its members play games with conversions to Judaism, contrary to universal halachic standards and laying havoc with basic Jewish values. And so the list goes on.

How unfortunate that politics and personal prejudices jaundice the hashkafah and policies of a would-be orthodox rabbinic organization. In these days of so many problems in the Jewish world in general, and orthodoxy in particular, they have nothing else to worry about than this truly inconsequential issue??? Shame, and double shame on the RCA; time to do teshuvah!

70

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:23 PM just wondering Says:

Reply to #57  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

In all fairness to Chabad, their feelings about the Rebbe zal stem from a deep and deserved love and affection for him. He was an amazing leader, a true tzaddik. Nevertheless, the Rebbe did not fulfill the requisite acts as set forth clearly by the Rambam and he was not, is not, will not be mashiach. The meshichists, no matter how frum they act or come off, are at best, cultists, and at worst, not very different from another religion that believes in resurrection. I have no doubt that had the Rebbe, hypothetically, told a follower to be mechalel shabbos for no reason, the follower would have done so. That is not Torah true yahadus and it is dangerous. The RCA has done the right thing and I agree 100% with this move. Whenever I hear meshichists argue, they yell, scream and call names - the true sign that they are wrong. The Rebbe accomplished amazing things and he surely brought the geulah closer, but Gimel Tammuz is proof positive that the Rebbe was not mashiach.

Dear Shaul,

Re: " not very different from another religion that believes in resurrection"... So if I read this correctly, you personally don't believe in resurrection. So what religion are you exactly and do your neighbors in Monsey know?

And if you happen to reject the believe in the resurrection of the dead (which would be "proof positive" that you are an apikoirus), what business do you have here discussing "Torah true yahadus" and similar inyonim?!

Since I'd rather assume that you are a goy posing as a Jew rather than an apikoirus, it is my obligation to remind you to learn and follow Sheva Mitzvois Bnei Noach... B'hatzluche.

71

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

In all fairness to Chabad, their feelings about the Rebbe zal stem from a deep and deserved love and affection for him. He was an amazing leader, a true tzaddik. Nevertheless, the Rebbe did not fulfill the requisite acts as set forth clearly by the Rambam and he was not, is not, will not be mashiach. The meshichists, no matter how frum they act or come off, are at best, cultists, and at worst, not very different from another religion that believes in resurrection. I have no doubt that had the Rebbe, hypothetically, told a follower to be mechalel shabbos for no reason, the follower would have done so. That is not Torah true yahadus and it is dangerous. The RCA has done the right thing and I agree 100% with this move. Whenever I hear meshichists argue, they yell, scream and call names - the true sign that they are wrong. The Rebbe accomplished amazing things and he surely brought the geulah closer, but Gimel Tammuz is proof positive that the Rebbe was not mashiach.

who cares? even if the rebbe isnt moshiach, trust me he'll be right behind moshiach, so we we'll be following the rebbe either way!

72

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:18 PM Dag Says:

Read what the RCA says carefully. They answer many of the issues raised here.

"there is not and never has been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial and resurrection before completing it"

They are saying there is NO place for the belief that Moshiach could start his Messianic mission only to be stopped by his DEATH AND BURIAL, and then resurrected to complete what he started.

Even according to those who held that Moshiach COULD be resurrected (a small, minority and non-mainstream view to be sure), he would be resurrected to start the Messianic process, and NOT to finish his work.

73

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Just to reitirate what has been commented earlier. It's amazing that rabbis that believe that Torah isn't Misinai, the world revolves around the sun, metzitza not bipeh, evolution etc. - all things totally contrary to Halacha - are fine but alittle belief in Moshiach is the real problem. Anybody see any hypocrisy?!

74

 Nov 23, 2009 at 06:00 PM baruch Says:

I didn't know that Lubavitchers were tripping over themselves to join the RCA. In fact, many of their often "well-nuanced" positions repel large portions of the Orthodox community including so-called right-leaning modern orthodox. Anonymous' footnoted ignorance is on display in ample measure today. He/she/it intends to imply b'kius when he only succeeds in demonstrating how little he really knows. Oh and let me introduce myself; I am not a meshichist and neither am I from the other camp. Instead I am one who fervently prays each day for be'as ha'goel tzedek to redeem from the abysmal hate and brazen ignorance that has infected so many.

75

 Nov 23, 2009 at 05:52 PM Anonymous Says:

as long as the rebbe stays dead he is not the messiach. if he comes back and does a few miracles I might change my mind.
If they want to believe the rebbe is coming back, thats their right, but I recommend they get a backup plan in case he deosnt.
in all honesty this will further spliter the jewish people. chabad guys wont be given aliyahs, they wont be able to convert people and we wont be able to eat their hashgachas,
in fact perhaps this might be a way for the modern orthodox to take back some of the hashgachah business from the chabasdskers

76

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Recently a long tshuva was written by Hagaon R Menashe Klein's in which he writes against those who hold the view that the Lub Rebbe is still alive but clearly states that to hold that he can be Moshiach in the future is a viable and oisgehaltene Torah view.

77

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:54 PM Anonymous Says:

uhm... the application says that this was added in 1996

78

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:20 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

I guess the modern orthdox Rabbis have resolved their own flaws. oops is that a female Rabbi?

you know the answer ofcourse

79

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:20 PM Anonymous Says:

YU should change it's name to "Berger-King"

80

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:24 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #53  
rca zionists Says:

RCA zionists should be banned from Judaism
making up halachos (Hallel in Yom Hatzmaut)

ofcoursse we say hallel with a bracha on yom haa-aatzmaout
i hope you wouldnt miss a chance to saay a bracha

81

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:13 PM Does Anybody Learn Rambam? Says:

If you learn Rambam a bit you will see that there are two ways to be Moshiach, "Moshiach Vadai" and "Bechazkas Moshiach", anybody who fits the description of Moshiach will be called "Bechezkas Moshiach" until Moshiach actually comes and says that he is the Moshiach and starts to do every thing that Moshiach is supposed to do.
Therefore any Lubavitcher can sign that paper since Moshiach still didn't come yet, so we can't say that the Rebbe is actually Moshiach and the Rebbe passed away to come again to finish the job, but only that the Rebbe CAN BE Moshiach and if the Rebbe passed away there can be Techiyas Hamesim like the Rebbe would say about the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe, that he will wake up and take us out of Golus.

82

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:29 PM Happy Day! Says:

Sholom, Brocha & Hatzlocha all those who had a hand in achieving this milestone. Good for you and good for Judaism. This is tov laShomayim and tov labrios. I wholeheartedly applaud this action, and believe that the Rebbe zt"l himself, wherever he is today, is cheering the loudest. Hallelu'ka! Please may all Rabbonim and Gedolim take similar actions to separate from this deceitful and false messianic cult. Thank you very much. Todah Rabbah!

83

 Nov 23, 2009 at 07:30 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #70  
just wondering Says:

Dear Shaul,

Re: " not very different from another religion that believes in resurrection"... So if I read this correctly, you personally don't believe in resurrection. So what religion are you exactly and do your neighbors in Monsey know?

And if you happen to reject the believe in the resurrection of the dead (which would be "proof positive" that you are an apikoirus), what business do you have here discussing "Torah true yahadus" and similar inyonim?!

Since I'd rather assume that you are a goy posing as a Jew rather than an apikoirus, it is my obligation to remind you to learn and follow Sheva Mitzvois Bnei Noach... B'hatzluche.

Name call all you want, I'm pretty sure the absolute reality of techiyas hameisim hasn't occurred. My comment was clearly a reference which you took offense to but that's your problem. Suggesting I'm whatever is another problem of yours so you're not doing too well. You're response was very cultish. No surprise there.

84

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:20 PM gotta love Yidden Says:

Mi k'amcho Yisroel! So many years in Golus and our emunoh and desire for redemption, may it come immediately, is stronger than ever! Look how excited we get when the topic of Moshiach is merely brought up! Everyone's pulse and blood pressure shoot up and we start typing feverishly - some do intelligently, some not so much. But the yiker is that we are discussing Geulo and Moshiach. Gevaldik!

These are truly Moshiach's tzeit'n. May we merit the immediate hisgalus of Melech haMoshiach toikef umiyad MaMoSH!!

85

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:06 PM Anonymous Says:

What difference does it make what they say? All the gedolim of the previous generation with Rav Moshe Feinstein at the head forbade joining the RCA as they were members of the Synogoue Council which included consrvative and reform members.

87

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:43 PM hello? Says:

Reply to #83  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

Name call all you want, I'm pretty sure the absolute reality of techiyas hameisim hasn't occurred. My comment was clearly a reference which you took offense to but that's your problem. Suggesting I'm whatever is another problem of yours so you're not doing too well. You're response was very cultish. No surprise there.

Name call? Chas v'sholem! Zug mir, what do you call someone who rejects one of the fundamentals of unzere yiddishe faith?

Now, I don't disagree that t'chiyas hameisim has probably not yet occured. Did someone suggest otherwise? The question is - do you believe that it *will* occur with absolute certainty, or as they say "be'emuno shleimo"? Or when you say shmone esrei, do you ommit the clauses dealing with tchiyas hameisim?

If one needs to be a member of a cult to believe in yud-gimmel yikorim, please sign me up for that cult...

88

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:47 PM Ani Maamin Says:

Some will laugh. But I Cry we are so so deep in Galus. If we would all just shed an Honest tear We are lost. Hashem please bring the Geulah Shleima B'karov we don't care Who it is just take Us home.

89

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:52 PM Anonymous Says:

to#59 and others first: 99% of Shluchim dont wear those yarmulkas and would never wear one 4000 Shluchim were just in Town none to be seen #2 Lots of comments here are coming from people that know just about nothing of Chabad who live in high walled frum communities etc. why do yo think people like Satmar who once had big issues with Chabad finally came around? and give big to Chabad? WHy do the biggest movers and shakers of this world today support Chabad? Why do the biggest misnagdim (of old) support Chabad and say within thier own circles Chabad is saving our children? how many more frum kids must go off the derech to be saved only by Chabad to wake up those haters? Why does Bibi quote the Lubavitcher Rebbe after his UN speech and state this gave me the power to speak this way 25 years later ? why is Chabad growing at the speed of light today more than ever? bottom line who is saving Jews everyday where you lazy bums could not even dream of living or give up your frum surroundings, Glatt food, Yeshivas, Girls schools, shabbos and yom tov for yourself with a good sleep? TRUTH HURTS SUCCESS HURTS The train goes forward regardless if lots of you folks turn your backs

90

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:00 PM Orthodox in Nashville Says:

Why all this negativity? We are standing on the threshold of Thanksgiving, a time for coming together. Carving of the turkey is supposed to bring us together. The RCA is splitting us apart. This was bad timing.

When I eat my yams and cranberry sauce this Thanksgiving, I will have peace on earth in mind, including the RCA and Lubavitch.

When I converted, I felt the coming of Messiah. I hope that feeling was correct and we will all learn to move forward.

91

 Nov 23, 2009 at 08:59 PM harpaz Says:



Moshe Rabeinu also had his Korach V'chol Adaso (250 Roshe Sanhedroes . . . )

92

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Moty Says:

All i can say is yasher koach to the rca, although its quite disturbing that we havent seen similar stances by too many non modern organizations. this is one of the saddest problems facing torah true judaism today

if you think thats the saddest thing facest torah judiasim today ive got lots to tell you

93

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:33 PM stop Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26
Some modern orthodox shuls in Manhattan have female "assistants"

STOP right there

94

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

Why can't the RCA take it one step further - To ban Lubavitch meat and Lubavitch Shochtim? If one has false beliefs, should he be shechting meat??

Most MO rabbonim will only eat meat with a yekkeshe hasgacha so there is no concern about so-called Lubabitch Shochtim.

95

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:39 PM sicha of shabbat parshat mishpatim 5752 Says:

Chapter 66
Our work and Divine service during the time of exile has already been completed, and we are already prepared to greet Moshiach; we find ourselves in the "highest time" of the coming of our righteous Moshiach, "Behold he (the king Moshiach) comes"; the beginning of the effect of the king Moshiach on the nations can already be seen; the fulfillment of the promise that they will beat their swords to ploughshares has already begun, and the whole world is worthy and prepared - an explanation of the particular details; all the Divine service of this generation over forty-two years has been concluded and finished, and we are already prepared and ready to enter the land in the true and complete Redemption; the time of your Redemption has arrived; the great need to increase in matters that will bring the Redemption in imminent reality: the details of the laws concerning acting towards others with peace, tzedekah and acts of lovkingkindness, joining in building and expanding Houses of Worship and Houses of Study, building the individual Sanctuary within each and every Jew that is in his innermost heart, his house and his private chamber; the leader of the generation is our righteous Moshiach; Moshiach - Menachem is his name; MiYaD Mamosh [literally: immediately, really, but also an acronym indicative of the Rebbe's status as Moshiach - translator].
(Shabbos Parshas Mishpatim, 27 Shvat,
Blessing of the Month of Adar 1)

96

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:40 PM Anonymous Says:

The RCA includes all the gadolei torah and talmeidei chachamim alive today and living in the U.S. If they say that we should ignore an chazal that talk about techiyas hamasim and moishiach ben david than they have a basis to do so which we might not have the yichus to understand. Any lubavitch rav can do tshuvah for such apikorsus and will be welcomed into the fellowship of the RCA.

97

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Pure jealosy

Timing of this seems very suspicious. It seems that the rca just couldn't handle all the PR that chabad has been getting lately. That they are Frum pple with high standards of yiddishkeit, they reach out to everyone and connect with all in a positive way. It seems that after watching the kinnus hashluchim live, they were just full of jealousy, so they came up with this idea.

98

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:56 PM sicha of shabbat parshat mishpatim 5752 Says [2] Says:

the sicha in comment #95, is ONLY a synopsis.

the WHOLE sicha is printed in hebrew, sefer hasichos 5752 vol. 2.
in english, in "Besuras Hageulo".

i would have given a link, but it's not the correct thing to do on this blog.

99

 Nov 23, 2009 at 09:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #90  
Orthodox in Nashville Says:

Why all this negativity? We are standing on the threshold of Thanksgiving, a time for coming together. Carving of the turkey is supposed to bring us together. The RCA is splitting us apart. This was bad timing.

When I eat my yams and cranberry sauce this Thanksgiving, I will have peace on earth in mind, including the RCA and Lubavitch.

When I converted, I felt the coming of Messiah. I hope that feeling was correct and we will all learn to move forward.

While you carve that turkey, some turkeys believe that the turkey will ressurect. Hopefully, before it is eaten. hate to see someone with a live turkey in their stomach.

100

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

In all fairness to Chabad, their feelings about the Rebbe zal stem from a deep and deserved love and affection for him. He was an amazing leader, a true tzaddik. Nevertheless, the Rebbe did not fulfill the requisite acts as set forth clearly by the Rambam and he was not, is not, will not be mashiach. The meshichists, no matter how frum they act or come off, are at best, cultists, and at worst, not very different from another religion that believes in resurrection. I have no doubt that had the Rebbe, hypothetically, told a follower to be mechalel shabbos for no reason, the follower would have done so. That is not Torah true yahadus and it is dangerous. The RCA has done the right thing and I agree 100% with this move. Whenever I hear meshichists argue, they yell, scream and call names - the true sign that they are wrong. The Rebbe accomplished amazing things and he surely brought the geulah closer, but Gimel Tammuz is proof positive that the Rebbe was not mashiach.

''I have no doubt that had the Rebbe, hypothetically, told a follower to be mechalel shabbos for no reason, the follower would have done so.''

------ i have no doubt that the rebbe even hypothetically, would not tell his followers to be mechallel shabbos. but, maybe you are
projecting your experience with your own torah leadership, who sway with the wind, and like the mishna says in sotah, are like the dog that is not leading the master , but looking back for his approval...

101

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:04 PM What's the point? Says:

I find this RCA declaration extremely disturbing. Trust me, no one suffers more from the Meshichists than the real Chabadniks, including off the bat, 4,000 shluchim who just held a kinnus that was a true kiddush Hashem, with no mention of who is moshiach. Are Jews still allowed to say Ani Ma'amin b'bias haMoshiach or is that a hint of "Messianism?" Stop splitting hairs and debating Gemara, Rambam, etc.. First, Lubavitchers posting here should state that they are against Meshichistim. But, RCA, stick to your own house of ills. Who are you and in the name of which gedolim of any stripe do you dare cause more divisiveness, sinas chinam, labels into this sinking ship of Galus. Lubavitch's goal is to help Klal Yisrael. I don't think the RCA can claim the same.

102

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM Yakov Says:

Isn't this an old issue with the RCA. Why is it being "resurrected" now?

103

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:14 PM Anonymous Says:

what a load of garbage the rca needs to feel important and in charge so they made up a pointless rule....

104

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

well well! so lets cut out pieces of tanach and kabbala to keep the rca happy? oh the gemara about reb avika was moshiach, maybe delete it from the gemara??
balia machlochaks

well well! look who's talking! look who calls others 'balia machlokes' !

105

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:46 PM Someone who actually learnt the mekoros Says:

The Rambam says very clearly "אם מת או נהרג" as the closest thing to a clear psak on this matter, לפי עניית דעתי we should go like the rambam rather than a daas yachid in gemara or a zohar not paskened in shulchan aruch. However, even if we take a proof from Ramchal (which was not given b'toras psak) or any of the other sources, this is all about moshiach being someone who lived once and only began his tachlis as moshiach (messianic mission) after his techias hameisim. To my knowledge, and that of several rabbonim I asked there is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE of the or greater who says that moshiach will come as moshiach, then die and then continue after techiyas hameisim. Certainly no one great enough to argue on the Rambam. THAT is the only thing the RCA is banning and they are probably right to do it.

Agav urcha, the RCA has pretty strict requirements for admission and the average member is probably more learned than anyone on this thread.

106

 Nov 23, 2009 at 10:46 PM Anonymous Says:

who is the RCA???? i never heard of them before.

107

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:12 PM DallasJew Says:

Berger is the most selfhating frum yid I know. Why? Give it up already. They ain't going away and lubab's are def not chasing the RCA.
The comment about the shluchim wearing yechi yarmulkas is incorrect. Most of the shluchin, 90-95% have not and will not cater to that madness...so the poster was trying to be a menuval - look at convention pics for proof.

I truly believe we have such more dire issues at hand as many have pointed out and I'm not sure I understand why this was brought up. But that said, I see it comes from collive.com so now i'm really confused as that's a key lubab site together with crownheights.info, and unsure why they'd post an old story.

108

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:17 PM Anonymous Says:

It seems clear from some of the comments (#30) that perhaps not everyone is familiar with all the commentaries about moshiach. What is clear is that now with the threat of nuclear weapons, with economic problems, and moral confusion, more than any time in history of the world, the world needs moshiach. About the only person in modern times who has suggested concrete ways to help bring moshiach is the Lubavitcher Rebbe who suggested that people learn about the Torah concepts of moshiach, plead to Hashem to bring moshaich, and do acts of goodness and kindness to help bring moshiach. Is banning a group of people who believe the rebbe to be moshiach bring moshiach? On the other hand, Is calling the rebbe moshiach bringing the geula? Even if someone doesn't believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could moshiach, perhaps taking his words to heart about how to bring moshiach can help us see who moshiach really is. We want moshiach NOW!

109

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Recently a long tshuva was written by Hagaon R Menashe Klein's in which he writes against those who hold the view that the Lub Rebbe is still alive but clearly states that to hold that he can be Moshiach in the future is a viable and oisgehaltene Torah view.

110

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #93  
stop Says:

STOP right there

I stand by my quote. Some MO shuls in Manhattan have what are euphemistically called "assistants"

111

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #97  
Anonymous Says:

Pure jealosy

Timing of this seems very suspicious. It seems that the rca just couldn't handle all the PR that chabad has been getting lately. That they are Frum pple with high standards of yiddishkeit, they reach out to everyone and connect with all in a positive way. It seems that after watching the kinnus hashluchim live, they were just full of jealousy, so they came up with this idea.

I agree, this was the first time that some of the yeshivishe websites carried a live feed of the Shluchim banquet...

112

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Like it or not, CHABAD is growing by leaps and bounds. They are the only ones with enough misiras nefesh and ahavas yisrael to end up permanently living in far flung places of the world. All you other copycats send out your "shluchim" for 2 or 3 years and then they come back home, and add "russia" to their rabbinical resumes.
As the saying goes, in life, as on the road there are drivers and there are passengers...."

113

 Nov 23, 2009 at 11:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #105  
Someone who actually learnt the mekoros Says:

The Rambam says very clearly "אם מת או נהרג" as the closest thing to a clear psak on this matter, לפי עניית דעתי we should go like the rambam rather than a daas yachid in gemara or a zohar not paskened in shulchan aruch. However, even if we take a proof from Ramchal (which was not given b'toras psak) or any of the other sources, this is all about moshiach being someone who lived once and only began his tachlis as moshiach (messianic mission) after his techias hameisim. To my knowledge, and that of several rabbonim I asked there is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE of the or greater who says that moshiach will come as moshiach, then die and then continue after techiyas hameisim. Certainly no one great enough to argue on the Rambam. THAT is the only thing the RCA is banning and they are probably right to do it.

Agav urcha, the RCA has pretty strict requirements for admission and the average member is probably more learned than anyone on this thread.

The 6th Lubavitcher rebbe ZT"L Put it best, when in 1942 after sending out his first shluchim across the US and Canada, he prophetically stated about the misnagdim " first they will criticize us, then they will make fun of us, then they will copy us and then they will say that they started it all..." how true.....

114

 Nov 24, 2009 at 06:35 AM earth revolves around the sun Says:

Reply to #73  
Anonymous Says:

Just to reitirate what has been commented earlier. It's amazing that rabbis that believe that Torah isn't Misinai, the world revolves around the sun, metzitza not bipeh, evolution etc. - all things totally contrary to Halacha - are fine but alittle belief in Moshiach is the real problem. Anybody see any hypocrisy?!

Are you saying that most Orthodox Jews don't accept that the earth revolves around the sun?

115

 Nov 24, 2009 at 07:39 AM Berl Says:

Gee I wonder why they don't ask these applicants if their wives keep their hair covered, I have met many an RCA Rabbi whose wife did NOT keep her hair covered and last time I looked that was a halacha in the Shulchan Aruch as well as not allowing women to sing in shul during davening, or ask the height of the mechitza in their shul( I know of RCA Rabbis whose shuls had minimum mechitzas and a few that had none, just a rope like in the bank)
It is also strange that they would dream that anyone who is affilliated with Chabad would even consider joining their organization when Chabad has it's own organization The Rabbinical Alliance.
Perhaps they really want to keep out Christian Messianic so called rabbis who seek legitimacy????????

116

 Nov 24, 2009 at 07:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #75  
Anonymous Says:

as long as the rebbe stays dead he is not the messiach. if he comes back and does a few miracles I might change my mind.
If they want to believe the rebbe is coming back, thats their right, but I recommend they get a backup plan in case he deosnt.
in all honesty this will further spliter the jewish people. chabad guys wont be given aliyahs, they wont be able to convert people and we wont be able to eat their hashgachas,
in fact perhaps this might be a way for the modern orthodox to take back some of the hashgachah business from the chabasdskers

As painfull as it is, I do not eat from Chabbad hasgachos. As good as the work they do (and when the Rebbe zt"l was alive I believed that he could possibly be the mosciach), but how can we allow people to hijack yiddeshkeit and add an alien theology (and one that has caused us great pain over the last 2000 years?). This has nothing to do with techias hameisim but to believe that we will be redeemed by someone who has died and will come back to save us?

117

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
shmuel Says:

Why does the OU put its hechser on lubavitch slaughtered meat and chicken? This has always bothered me.

the OU shecita is the exact same shecita as chabads shecita. many chabadnkim dont realize that there's nothing halachikally different btw the chabad and OU standards

118

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:42 AM Kol Haposel Bemumo Posel Says:

I think we need to question the Jewishness or lack thereof of whoever heads the RCA.

If not for the Klal of Kol Haposel Bemumo Posel, they could not have thought of something so ridiculous.

The RCA has also demonstrated that their leadership are no only NOT RABBONIM but 100% full fledged AME HORATZIM that they don't know all the Mekoros in Torah which approve of that which the RCA does not approve off.

The the RCA goo back to school and start learning Aleph Beis before they pretend to be "rabbis".

119

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:49 AM The Truth Hurts Says:

The fact that the RCA, can see "nothing more important in life" than to try and undermine Lubavitch, shows that RCA feels threatened because the RCA feels they are DEFUNCT and have accomplished virtually nothing while Lubavitch multiplies each year by leaps and bounds, all over the world.

Question:
How many Baaley Tshuva has the RCA produced?

Answer:
ZERO

Question:
How Many Baaley Tshuvos has Lubavitch produced?

Answer:
More than anyone can count!

No wonder a worthless "DO NOTHING" organization like the RCA, HATES most only those Jews who do more than anyone else.

We mus all thank the RCA for the compliment, especially timely, right after the MASSIVE Kinus Hashluchim - while the RCA has NOTHING of substance to show for their accomplishments.

120

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:01 AM reb yid Says:

Unfortunately, I feel you guys have convoluted the words of the Rambam to fit your agenda. First of all the reason why the Rambam says killed, not dies, is because Melech Hamoshiach is fighting Milchemes Hashem like his his grandfather Dovid. Now unless I am out of my mind, I don’t recall the Rebbe Z”L walking around with amunition on any occation. Bar Kochba was killed in war. The Rebbe certainly was not fighting a war, at least not the kind of Dovid Hamelech (which is a prerequisit to being Moshiach). The Rambam goes on to say that if this Moshiach is not successful then he is like the rest of the Kings of Malchus Bais Dovid. Unless the Rebbe was the king of Brooklyn, he doesn’t get the status of King. He also did not “force” the jewish people to go in the way of Hashem. He may have done tremendous Kiruv, but he didn’t command Mitzvah observance on this level. The irony of the above is that we all know Chabad in their efforts accept jews as they are, their policy is never to “force” people to do Mitzvos.

Each individual who has to grapple with this new Emuna that never was before in Klal Yisroel. I wouldn't take the gambel

121

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:06 AM We need to BAN the RCA Hechsher ! Says:

Lubavitch Rabbonim should make an ISSUR to ban the hechsher of the RCA.

Any so called "rabbinical organization" who call themselves "RCA" who can make up such Anti Torah views, can't be trusted that what they say is Kosher, is in fact Kosher.

How can the products certified by the RCA be Kosher if the RCA has hereby demonstrated that their are themselves not Kosher with Deos Kosvos and the RCA outright contradicts the Ritva, the Zohar and countless contemporary Gedoley Hador.

If the RCA can be so shameless, their Hechsher can't be trusted.

122

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:35 AM moshe Says:

credit must be given to the mechichstim (and the rca) for extending a hu ha about moshiach as the Rambam writes in hilchos melocim it is to the credit of [lihavdil] yoshke and muhamad that the world is full of moshiach. if you are afraid of moshiach or not so the rambam says! "AH MEFURISHE RAMBAM"!

123

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:47 AM Anonymous Says:

If Chabad messianism is not condemned, than we have no reason to oppose Messianic Judaism/Jews for Jesus. Anyone can find a makor for a belief, but not all mekoros are within the mainstream of Jewish thought as has been accepted for millennia.

124

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #105  
Someone who actually learnt the mekoros Says:

The Rambam says very clearly "אם מת או נהרג" as the closest thing to a clear psak on this matter, לפי עניית דעתי we should go like the rambam rather than a daas yachid in gemara or a zohar not paskened in shulchan aruch. However, even if we take a proof from Ramchal (which was not given b'toras psak) or any of the other sources, this is all about moshiach being someone who lived once and only began his tachlis as moshiach (messianic mission) after his techias hameisim. To my knowledge, and that of several rabbonim I asked there is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE of the or greater who says that moshiach will come as moshiach, then die and then continue after techiyas hameisim. Certainly no one great enough to argue on the Rambam. THAT is the only thing the RCA is banning and they are probably right to do it.

Agav urcha, the RCA has pretty strict requirements for admission and the average member is probably more learned than anyone on this thread.

You misquote the Rambam. The Rambam makes no mention of מת only נהרג. Which when the Rambam is read/ learned correctly (including the story of Bar Koziba) invalidates your argument.

125

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:45 AM dont eat anything Says:

Reply to #21  
shmuel Says:

Why does the OU put its hechser on lubavitch slaughtered meat and chicken? This has always bothered me.

What bothers me is why you it anything with a ou hechsher. Did you know that half their prodocts are from chabad mashgichim world wide in places it would be to expensive to fly down mashgichim. I myself did hasgocha for them in a pickle factory when I was in vietnam on shlichus

125

 Nov 24, 2009 at 08:39 AM don't lie Says:

Reply to #96  
Anonymous Says:

The RCA includes all the gadolei torah and talmeidei chachamim alive today and living in the U.S. If they say that we should ignore an chazal that talk about techiyas hamasim and moishiach ben david than they have a basis to do so which we might not have the yichus to understand. Any lubavitch rav can do tshuvah for such apikorsus and will be welcomed into the fellowship of the RCA.

You guys have a habit of distorting whatis being said and make horrible accusations. RCA believes firmly in Techiyat Hamessim, and yet they conform to the belief held by jews for two thousand years (who also beleived in techiya) that a person who was presumed messiah and died without bringing the redemption is NOT the mssiah.

126

 Nov 24, 2009 at 08:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #118  
Kol Haposel Bemumo Posel Says:

I think we need to question the Jewishness or lack thereof of whoever heads the RCA.

If not for the Klal of Kol Haposel Bemumo Posel, they could not have thought of something so ridiculous.

The RCA has also demonstrated that their leadership are no only NOT RABBONIM but 100% full fledged AME HORATZIM that they don't know all the Mekoros in Torah which approve of that which the RCA does not approve off.

The the RCA goo back to school and start learning Aleph Beis before they pretend to be "rabbis".

When Elul rolls around please remember to ask mechilla from the Rabbi's you just slandered. Not all are gedolim but they all are yodei sefer and shomrei torah u'mitzvos. BTW, many are gedolim and you do eat the food on which they give hashgachos on. And as we all know it does come down to what we eat.

127

 Nov 24, 2009 at 07:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Believing in the resurrection of Moschiach has caused splits in Judaism before. The last major split occurred in the 1st Century CE and the believers in the resurrection are still around with a lot more adherents then what is currently defined as Judaism.

128

 Nov 24, 2009 at 06:52 AM astronomy Says:

Reply to #114  
earth revolves around the sun Says:

Are you saying that most Orthodox Jews don't accept that the earth revolves around the sun?

I didn't poll most "orthodox" Jews, but those who study modern science would tell you that both systems (earth in the center - geocentric or sun in the center -heliocentric) are completely and equally valid and it all depends simply on your point of referrence. I.e. If I decide to make calculations of planets' orbits based on the system of coordinated with its point of origin in Yerushalayim - that would be completely valid... So if both views are valid, a Torah yid should choose a Torah preference (earth in the center)... Btw, sh'koach for changing the subject - about time ;)....

129

 Nov 24, 2009 at 05:26 AM Absurd Says:

Reply to #58  
Ruvi Says:

Maybe they should start growing beards and not relying on flimsy Heterim to shave... I think they will have no members left....

There zeides all had beards so what happened??? on mishichits bother them.... LOL and the psak from the Chofetz chaim about shaving doesnt??

Find me a picture from any litvish yeshiva in the past 150 years where they had beards! You won't find in Mir, Slabodka, Telshe, etc.! It is assur to use a razor - but other forms were mutar 100%. If it is a flimsy heter - than nobody in Philly, Chaim Berlin, Torah VoDaas, Lakewood, etc. should be clean shaven!
Half of the nonsense above again RCA rabbis is baloney! There are NO female rabbis, NO RCA rabbi is allowed in a shul without a mechitzah!
This entire issue is NOT against Chabad - only people who beleive Moshiach already came - tell me Which Agudah gedolim say that this is within the boundaries of Torah beliefs???

130

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:26 AM A E ANDERSON Says:

I've told this to Lubavs for years now.... the proof of the messianic pudding -- according to them! -- rests solely on the messiah's fulfilment of the criteria outlined in the Rambam (mkabetz nedhei ysrael, beis hamiqdash, etc.). Until ALL of those criteria are fulfilled, it's mental masturbation, narishkeyt and bittul zeman to even discuss "candidates" (as if the moshiach is somebody to be nominated in the style of an American political convention, has ve-halilah!)

If Schneerson were able to come back from the dead, and then fulfil all the Maimonidean criteria, then -- maybe -- it would be relevant to consider whether or not he is the messiah. But so far, I don't see him climbing out of his Queens, New York grave any time soon. And until he does, I think both Berger and the messianic morons should just shut up and leave the dead to rest in peace.

131

 Nov 24, 2009 at 09:22 AM Yenkiv Says:

Reply to #50  
Anonymous Says:

CHABAD NO BUT WOMAN YES?
WHAT ARE THE TWO WOMAN RABBIS DOING AMONG THE MEN IN THE ABOVE PICTURE I GUESS THAT DOES HAVE A PLACE IN JUDAISM.

tell me whats a bigger issur woman amongst the men, or believing what the gemorah says that moshiach can come from those that already died?(look it up yourself & if you need an artscroll its there also sanhehrin daf 98 amud beis 6 lines from the bottom last 4 words on line amar rav. …dont be scarded to look it up and see rashi while you are there also)
i’ll choose the gemorah over the rca any day.
granted if you dont want to believe that its going to be the lubavitcher rebbe thats your choice, but to say that mosiach cant be from the dead, thats something that should be banned
or perhaps they banned that gemorah also!!!!

Who says they are rabbis? What ever happened to being Dan Lchaf Zechus, who says they are Rabbis? I know for a fact that the RCA does not allow Rabbis those claiming that this is sinah of the Chabad should look at what is being written here and see the sinah of the "Modern" Orthodox. This entire comment exudes hatred of Yidden, what the RCA did may or may not be valid, I am not a Poseik and I dont pretend to be, but the comments that see a woman in the photo and automatically must think the absolute worst, where is our benefit of the doubt?? is it only yidden with large beards that get that benefit? Shame on all of us for our baseless hatred from what we look like and not what we believe or maintain! We should all just take a step back and realize that we all need to be choser betshuva and not jump to conclusions based on a photo, she is just SITTING there, give me a break, I am not chabad and I try to be dan all of my brethren chabad. chassidisha., litvish whatever based on their actions and beliefs not without facts

I hope we can all come together realize that we are hopefully fighting about Emes and Toirah and not over kavod glory emesdika yidden dont look alike its ok

133

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

What about all the torah sources that confirm mashiach could be someone who is not from the living?? zahar etc..

TO: #19 - IN FACT, I THINK THERE'S INDICATION FROM THE ZOHAR THAT EVEN DOVID HAMELECH, HIMSELF, MIGHT BE MOSHIACH! WE WILL NOT KNOW UNTIL THE ACTUAL TIME IS HERE. MAY IT BE VERY, VERY SOON!

134

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:56 AM What are you a BIGGER BOKI in, in Torah or in "Other Religions"? Says:

Reply to #127  
Anonymous Says:

Believing in the resurrection of Moschiach has caused splits in Judaism before. The last major split occurred in the 1st Century CE and the believers in the resurrection are still around with a lot more adherents then what is currently defined as Judaism.

Problem is that people like you and the RCA, and similar uneducated Amey-Horatzim, seem to know a whole lot more about Christianity than about Judaism and so any time you hear about anything IN TORAH (which is "new to you", only because of your prior ignorance) you first take out all your sifrey avodah zora and you compare whatever you learned, in Torah, as to "how does it compare" to that which you are already familiar with from your prior Avoda Zora FAMILIARITY.

To understand how the mind of the RCA is FLAWED, see the English Sefer by Rabbi Zalmen Posner, called "THINK JEWISH". In his book he explains how some Jews like the RCA have SKEWED THINKING patterns because they are very familiar with non-Jewish thought yet they know very little about Torah and so every new item of Torah, which they learn, they compare it to their prior Avoda Zara View.

For example:
Someone who has never been to a Shull and has never seen one and has never heard of it before and is introduced to it for the first time would say the following:

What is this? "A Shull"??? "I never heard of that....what is this?
And after it's explained to him....then he says:
"Oh, now I understand, it's just like a Church"

135

 Nov 24, 2009 at 10:38 AM RCA is Matir Assurim Says:

Reply to #129  
Absurd Says:

Find me a picture from any litvish yeshiva in the past 150 years where they had beards! You won't find in Mir, Slabodka, Telshe, etc.! It is assur to use a razor - but other forms were mutar 100%. If it is a flimsy heter - than nobody in Philly, Chaim Berlin, Torah VoDaas, Lakewood, etc. should be clean shaven!
Half of the nonsense above again RCA rabbis is baloney! There are NO female rabbis, NO RCA rabbi is allowed in a shul without a mechitzah!
This entire issue is NOT against Chabad - only people who beleive Moshiach already came - tell me Which Agudah gedolim say that this is within the boundaries of Torah beliefs???

See the Sefer Hadras Ponim Zaken by Rabbi Moshe Wiener, where he proves that although there were a few "mekilim" who were "matir assurim" but he shows clearly that 99.99% of All Gedoley Yisroel consider it and Issur Gamur MIN HATORAH to remove the Beard in any manner.

A Story is told about one of the true Gedolim who had seen what the RCA "rabbi's" look like and was so shocked that he wrote a letter describing the looks of that RCA with following description:

"Ponim K'Achor, Umedaber K'Goy"

137

 Nov 24, 2009 at 11:26 AM Anonymous Says:

If you will look at the RCA application, Chabad is not even mentioned.

The application says that "there is not and never has been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial, and resurrection before completing it.”

No one is denigrating Lubavitch Chassidus, the way it really WAS 50 years ago, before this belief in its Rebbe being Moshiach.

The problem is C"V believing that the Rebbe is or was Moshiach (Meshichists) or C"V believing that he is a piece of G-d in a human body (Elohists).

There is no other Chassidic group going around claiming that their Rebbe is or was Moshiach, or that he is "Elokus B'Livush Gashmi," (godliness in a human body), so it cannot be claimed that those against the Meshichists & Elohists are only Misnagdim.

The Rebbe is dead. His body is buried, and his soul in in heaven. He is NOT alive, and his consciousness is not floating around somewhere on earth.

End of story. Period.

138

 Nov 24, 2009 at 11:30 AM Anonymous Says:

One day, I was standing on a Brooklyn street, while 4 trucks passed by where I was standing.

On the side of each truck was a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and next to each picture were the words, "Moshiach is here," in a different language on each truck: English, Yiddish, Russian, and Arabic.

Evidently, these people still think that the Rebbe is still alive. Is the Rebbe still alive?

139

 Nov 24, 2009 at 11:43 AM MIESQ Says:

How sad of the RCA to make this such a pivitol matter akin to beleif in Torah M'Sinai or Mechitzah ? The notion of a rescurectted Mashiach is a well settled possibility from chazal and Rishonim. As the Rambam wrote in Hilchoth Melachim wedo not have specific mesora regarding Mashiach only a number of possible senarios as the actual events will be connected to the nation's circumstances at that time.
Hopefully, this action will be rethought and discontinued.

140

 Nov 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM DoubleStandard Says:

Meshichistim can't be in the RCA, but Chovevei Torah supporters can be. Repugnant.

141

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:06 PM Anonymous Says:

The issue here is not the RCA. The issue here is the Meshichist belief.

142

 Nov 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM Ask Rabbi Lau Says:

Reply to #138  
Anonymous Says:

One day, I was standing on a Brooklyn street, while 4 trucks passed by where I was standing.

On the side of each truck was a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and next to each picture were the words, "Moshiach is here," in a different language on each truck: English, Yiddish, Russian, and Arabic.

Evidently, these people still think that the Rebbe is still alive. Is the Rebbe still alive?

I was told the following maise: a coilel yunger man once asked R' Lau where he holds on those "crazy Lubavitchers who say that the Rebbe is chai v'kayom". R' Lau responded as follows: "Tell me, is your Rosh Yeshiva alive?", the man said, "yes, B''H". R' Lau continued: "in that case, tell me, if your Rosh Yeshiva were to tell you tomorrow to pack your stuff and move somewhere in Southern China and open up a shul, mikveh, kindergarten etc., and stay there *for life* because there are 20 Jews who live there, would you do it? Or would you try to find every excuse possible to avoid doing it? So now tell me: who's really "chai v'kayom" - the Lubavitcher Rebbe or your Roish Yeshivah"?

I was also priveledged to see a video recently of the current Chief Rabbi, R' Metzger shlit'a proclaiming that "...haRabbi chai v'kayam" followed by "Yechi" (the complete nussach) - you may want to direct your question to him also. He is not Chabad last I checked and his title suggest that he is quite respected.

Next time you see mitzva tanks (or "trucks" as you call them) simply ask the bocherim to explain this inyan to you. They will be more than happy to oblige.

Moshiach NOW

143

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:15 PM Simon Says:

Reply to #21  
shmuel Says:

Why does the OU put its hechser on lubavitch slaughtered meat and chicken? This has always bothered me.

because it's kosher.

144

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #129  
Absurd Says:

Find me a picture from any litvish yeshiva in the past 150 years where they had beards! You won't find in Mir, Slabodka, Telshe, etc.! It is assur to use a razor - but other forms were mutar 100%. If it is a flimsy heter - than nobody in Philly, Chaim Berlin, Torah VoDaas, Lakewood, etc. should be clean shaven!
Half of the nonsense above again RCA rabbis is baloney! There are NO female rabbis, NO RCA rabbi is allowed in a shul without a mechitzah!
This entire issue is NOT against Chabad - only people who beleive Moshiach already came - tell me Which Agudah gedolim say that this is within the boundaries of Torah beliefs???

1---apparently you either believe the Rebbe is ,was , and will be the messiah [ AND melech yisrael , a navi, and the rabban shel kol yisrael] , or you are not a chassid

2-- chabad can make all kinds of litvishe diyukim in rishonim. but the bottom line is only a small group of jews ever believed in a Resurrected Messiah who didn't finish the job. now there is a 2nd

3-- is it an accident that J's for J used the rebbe as a proof that jews believe in resurrected messiahs -- so therefore believe in the Nazarene!

145

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:47 PM yoselle Says:

the rca has made a joke out of halacha ! how can they complian about chabad . how many rca "rabbi's" shake hands with women ?

146

 Nov 24, 2009 at 01:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #117  
Anonymous Says:

the OU shecita is the exact same shecita as chabads shecita. many chabadnkim dont realize that there's nothing halachikally different btw the chabad and OU standards

there is one difference. the OU is VERY careful not to allow shochtim who did not 1st have a 'farhehr' on the topic of who is G-d. any shochet who cannot firmly separate between G-d and the rebbe, so that when he says baruch atta hashem , he sees the rebbe as part of the godhead, he is not allowed to be an OU shochet--though he should have no trouble being a chabad shochet....

147

 Nov 24, 2009 at 03:15 PM NW YID Says:

Reply to #4  
messianoc not chabad Says:

anyone that's messiabic (i.e. believes the chabad rebbe is still alive) does not deserve to be called chabad

All of our Tzaddikim are still "alive." If they were not "alive" how would one explain the visits of many deceased Tzaddikim to many Yidden throughout history, and an eventual visit to us on Pesach. Olam Hazeh is not the end, only a transient experience... The Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive in Shamayim, along with all our other blessed Tzaddikim.... Perhaps the term "alive" is elusive?

148

 Nov 24, 2009 at 02:26 PM A Rabbi at the RCA Says:

I'm not Chabad.

I'm a member of the RCA for the past 30 years but will now, be quiting my membership, because I feel the RCA has turned in to a Political organization, rather than a Rabbinical organization.

Judaism faces huge problems of intermarriage and more, and we at the RCA have nothing more important to worry about?

As long time member of the RCA, I call upon all my fellow Chaverim at the RCA to quit as well.

149

 Nov 24, 2009 at 06:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #146  
Anonymous Says:

there is one difference. the OU is VERY careful not to allow shochtim who did not 1st have a 'farhehr' on the topic of who is G-d. any shochet who cannot firmly separate between G-d and the rebbe, so that when he says baruch atta hashem , he sees the rebbe as part of the godhead, he is not allowed to be an OU shochet--though he should have no trouble being a chabad shochet....

I'd bet the author of this very statement would himself eat the shechita of these Lubavitchers he's ranting about, with no questions asked especially if he's hungry. Ubdidi hava uvda, I see this maasim b'chol yom especially on travel, these same frimme yidden who will ziddel ois these Lubavitchers and call them Oivdei A"Z (r"l), when they're hungry this whole discussion is out the window. And "unfortunately" Lubavitch in too many places worldwide, especially outside the walls of Boro Park and Yerushalayim, is the only deal around so I guess ven es kumt tzu essen men fargest oif di sinas chinom oif a veila. BTW. the comment about the OU is categorically FALSE. I can name you scores of Lubavitchers who work for the OU including many in Orei Hasodeh who are the sole mashgiach for large food manufacturers involving shailos of treifus mamosh and the OU has never inquired to see what type of yarmulke they wear or what is hidden underneath it.

I have a hunch the OU knows better to stay away from a subject vos iz nisht azoi poshut especially to passel yidden yireiim ushleimim.

150

 Nov 24, 2009 at 08:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Oy. What does politics or intermarriage or anything else that the RCA deals with have to do with THIS ONE ISSUE ?

The issue being discussed here is "there is not and never has been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial, and resurrection before completing it."

Did Elyahu HaNavi come and announce that the Lubavitch Rebbe is Moshiach?

Saying that the Lubavitch Rebbe is Moshiach has nothing to do with real authentic Lubavtich Chassidus.

Since Lubavitch Chassidus has been around, no one ever said that whoever was the Rebbe at any particular time was Moshiach. This only started about 50 years ago.

Why are there trucks going around with, on the side, a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and next to each picture are the words, "Moshiach is here," each in a different language.

Is Moshiach here? Has the world been redeemed?

So stick to the issue!

151

 Nov 25, 2009 at 12:44 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #105  
Someone who actually learnt the mekoros Says:

The Rambam says very clearly "אם מת או נהרג" as the closest thing to a clear psak on this matter, לפי עניית דעתי we should go like the rambam rather than a daas yachid in gemara or a zohar not paskened in shulchan aruch. However, even if we take a proof from Ramchal (which was not given b'toras psak) or any of the other sources, this is all about moshiach being someone who lived once and only began his tachlis as moshiach (messianic mission) after his techias hameisim. To my knowledge, and that of several rabbonim I asked there is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE of the or greater who says that moshiach will come as moshiach, then die and then continue after techiyas hameisim. Certainly no one great enough to argue on the Rambam. THAT is the only thing the RCA is banning and they are probably right to do it.

Agav urcha, the RCA has pretty strict requirements for admission and the average member is probably more learned than anyone on this thread.

If you actually learnt the mekoros, then why are you lying about them? Where does the Rambam say אם מת או נהרג? He doesn't; you made that up.

As for the RCA's requirements for admission, give me a break. Don't forget that the RCA was established because RIETS graduates weren't good enough to get into the Agudas Horabonim, and if they did get in they didn't understand anything because they couldn't speak Yiddish. The RCA is the RIETS alumni association, and I don't know why a Lubav would want to join. As far as I know Lubav rabbonim tend to join the Iggud Horabonim or the Agudas Horabonim.

152

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:05 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #119  
The Truth Hurts Says:

The fact that the RCA, can see "nothing more important in life" than to try and undermine Lubavitch, shows that RCA feels threatened because the RCA feels they are DEFUNCT and have accomplished virtually nothing while Lubavitch multiplies each year by leaps and bounds, all over the world.

Question:
How many Baaley Tshuva has the RCA produced?

Answer:
ZERO

Question:
How Many Baaley Tshuvos has Lubavitch produced?

Answer:
More than anyone can count!

No wonder a worthless "DO NOTHING" organization like the RCA, HATES most only those Jews who do more than anyone else.

We mus all thank the RCA for the compliment, especially timely, right after the MASSIVE Kinus Hashluchim - while the RCA has NOTHING of substance to show for their accomplishments.

You are right to trumpet the achievements of Lubavitch, but why do you feel the need to belittle others' achievements? The RCA and its affiliated organisations such as NCSY have certainly produced many baalei teshuvah, and there's no point in denying it. But that has nothing to do with the topic. Any organization is entitled to set its own membership rules. If a group dominated by zionists, and by rabbis who don't keep cholov yisroel or kol isho, and whose wives go with uncovered hair, wants to exclude those who think there might be a place in Judaism for unusual beliefs about the precise details of Moshiach's coming, then that's its right.

153

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:08 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #123  
Anonymous Says:

If Chabad messianism is not condemned, than we have no reason to oppose Messianic Judaism/Jews for Jesus. Anyone can find a makor for a belief, but not all mekoros are within the mainstream of Jewish thought as has been accepted for millennia.

All this shows is your ignorance of both Judaism and Xianity. If you think the problem with Xianity is the identity of Moshiach, then you are very very wrong.

154

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:10 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #126  
Anonymous Says:

When Elul rolls around please remember to ask mechilla from the Rabbi's you just slandered. Not all are gedolim but they all are yodei sefer and shomrei torah u'mitzvos. BTW, many are gedolim and you do eat the food on which they give hashgachos on. And as we all know it does come down to what we eat.

How do you know what #118 eats? And #118 can ask mechila right after you and the RCA ask mechila from the rabbonim whom they passled.

155

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:12 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #129  
Absurd Says:

Find me a picture from any litvish yeshiva in the past 150 years where they had beards! You won't find in Mir, Slabodka, Telshe, etc.! It is assur to use a razor - but other forms were mutar 100%. If it is a flimsy heter - than nobody in Philly, Chaim Berlin, Torah VoDaas, Lakewood, etc. should be clean shaven!
Half of the nonsense above again RCA rabbis is baloney! There are NO female rabbis, NO RCA rabbi is allowed in a shul without a mechitzah!
This entire issue is NOT against Chabad - only people who beleive Moshiach already came - tell me Which Agudah gedolim say that this is within the boundaries of Torah beliefs???

It is a flimsy heter, and ein hochi nami, look what happened with those yeshivos.

156

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:15 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #142  
Ask Rabbi Lau Says:

I was told the following maise: a coilel yunger man once asked R' Lau where he holds on those "crazy Lubavitchers who say that the Rebbe is chai v'kayom". R' Lau responded as follows: "Tell me, is your Rosh Yeshiva alive?", the man said, "yes, B''H". R' Lau continued: "in that case, tell me, if your Rosh Yeshiva were to tell you tomorrow to pack your stuff and move somewhere in Southern China and open up a shul, mikveh, kindergarten etc., and stay there *for life* because there are 20 Jews who live there, would you do it? Or would you try to find every excuse possible to avoid doing it? So now tell me: who's really "chai v'kayom" - the Lubavitcher Rebbe or your Roish Yeshivah"?

I was also priveledged to see a video recently of the current Chief Rabbi, R' Metzger shlit'a proclaiming that "...haRabbi chai v'kayam" followed by "Yechi" (the complete nussach) - you may want to direct your question to him also. He is not Chabad last I checked and his title suggest that he is quite respected.

Next time you see mitzva tanks (or "trucks" as you call them) simply ask the bocherim to explain this inyan to you. They will be more than happy to oblige.

Moshiach NOW

Please, don't bring a ra'ayah from Metzger.

157

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:19 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #146  
Anonymous Says:

there is one difference. the OU is VERY careful not to allow shochtim who did not 1st have a 'farhehr' on the topic of who is G-d. any shochet who cannot firmly separate between G-d and the rebbe, so that when he says baruch atta hashem , he sees the rebbe as part of the godhead, he is not allowed to be an OU shochet--though he should have no trouble being a chabad shochet....

And your source for this fairy tale is...?

158

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:26 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #150  
Anonymous Says:

Oy. What does politics or intermarriage or anything else that the RCA deals with have to do with THIS ONE ISSUE ?

The issue being discussed here is "there is not and never has been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial, and resurrection before completing it."

Did Elyahu HaNavi come and announce that the Lubavitch Rebbe is Moshiach?

Saying that the Lubavitch Rebbe is Moshiach has nothing to do with real authentic Lubavtich Chassidus.

Since Lubavitch Chassidus has been around, no one ever said that whoever was the Rebbe at any particular time was Moshiach. This only started about 50 years ago.

Why are there trucks going around with, on the side, a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and next to each picture are the words, "Moshiach is here," each in a different language.

Is Moshiach here? Has the world been redeemed?

So stick to the issue!

"Since Lubavitch Chassidus has been around, no one ever said that whoever was the Rebbe at any particular time was Moshiach. This only started about 50 years ago."

I agree with most of the comment, but this is just false. Not only Lubavitch but ALL chassidim thought that their rebbe would be moshiach, starting with the Baal Shem Tov. And even after the Baal Shem Tov's passing many of his talmidim believed that he would be moshiach. So don't start claiming that this is some kind of modern invention. The fact that nowadays most chassidusn have forgotten what a rebbe really is, and think of the rabbisteve as just a glorified rabbonus/CEO-ship, is sad, but not a reflection on those who continue with the original chassidic concept.

159

 Nov 25, 2009 at 04:16 AM matzahlocal101 Says:

Please add the following to the list of those inelgible for RCA membership:

Ravina and Rav Ashi, the compilers of Talmud Bavli:
"If he (moshiach) is from amongst the dead he will be like Daniel" -Sanhedrin 98B

Rashi Hakadosh"
"If he from the dead he will be like Daniel who was judged with yesurim in the Lions den." (ibid)

Rav Yochonan, compiler of Talmud Yerushalmi:
"If he is from among the dead his name will be Dovid..." -(Yer. Brochos 2:4)

Rav Moshe Margolius from Kaiden (pnai Moshe) The GR"A's Rebbe:
"If he is from the dead it will be king David himself" (ibid)

Looks like Chabad is in pretty good company.

As a side note, I thinks it's pretty funny that when Mordechai Tendler threatened the RCA with a Din Torah after he was booted, the RCA, one of the "the largest rabbinical organizations in the world" (Not counting the 4000 Chabad Shluchim at the convention last month, course.) hired Shmiel Fried, a Chasidisheh Yid from Williamsburgh, as their Toen because there is no-one in their 1000 member strong organization of rabbis capable of litigating a Din Torah. Pretty Funny. I'm sure Chabadnikim are crying that they've been banned.

160

 Nov 25, 2009 at 04:41 AM Halacha Says:

Reply to #59  
Schmaltzy Says:

Nice try # 6. But if they are such a minority why is the hehchal hakodesh of 770 adorned with Yechi Adonenu etc.. Why do many if not most of the shlichim wear yechi adonenu yarmulkas. Sorry but the moshichistim control Chabad. Too bad, because they are otherwise a very worthwhile organization.

"why is the hehchal hakodesh of 770 adorned with Yechi Adonenu etc."

Good question. Perhaps we can answer it in light of Reb Moshe z'l's Tshuva in AH I s.46 referring to an Israeli flag in a shul:

"even though those who made the flag as a sign were wicked people...;

"even though it's definitely improper to bring the flag into a shul which is a holy place, and surely not on a permanent basis, and surely not next to the aron hakodesh...";

"it's not idolatry, it's futility and stupidity..."; (hevel vi'shtus)

"And if there is the ability, without machlokes, to uproot the entire subject of the flag so there would not be any rememberance of the deeds of the wicked it would probably be a good idea."

However Reb Moshe z"l repeats 3 times that it should be done peacefully and without machlokes. So I'll tell you what, If you can get those thousand Rabbis to peacefully remove the Israeli flags from their shuls, I'll see what I can do to peacefully take down the yechi signs from 770. If however you've suddenly become a big peacenik in regards to the flags, the signs stay for the same reason. fair enough?

161

 Nov 25, 2009 at 10:19 AM Anonymous Says:

It's one thing to say the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach based on some sources (albeit a concept not widelty accepted by most contemporary poskim), but those who proclaim him with certainty need professional help and spiritual guidance- they only discredit Lubavitch.

They also violate the kol koreh of the Agudas Chasidei Chabad which clearly stated that excessive speculation (and that's all it can be) as to who is Moshiach is not part of Judaism in general or Lubavitch in particular.

162

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:27 PM A Certainty - not "speculation" Says:

Reply to #161  
Anonymous Says:

It's one thing to say the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach based on some sources (albeit a concept not widelty accepted by most contemporary poskim), but those who proclaim him with certainty need professional help and spiritual guidance- they only discredit Lubavitch.

They also violate the kol koreh of the Agudas Chasidei Chabad which clearly stated that excessive speculation (and that's all it can be) as to who is Moshiach is not part of Judaism in general or Lubavitch in particular.

The Gemoro is filled with stories of those who claimed their Rebbe, alive or deceased is or was or will be the Moshiach.

The Gemoro relates that those who had made those claims "did NOT SPECULATE".

There is no "speculation" here.

Those in the Gemoro who said they felt their Rebbe was Moshiach said so as a MATTER OF FACT and with a sense of CERTAINTY.

163

 Nov 25, 2009 at 01:36 PM RCA Joins the Conservative and Reform? Says:

Reply to #161  
Anonymous Says:

It's one thing to say the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach based on some sources (albeit a concept not widelty accepted by most contemporary poskim), but those who proclaim him with certainty need professional help and spiritual guidance- they only discredit Lubavitch.

They also violate the kol koreh of the Agudas Chasidei Chabad which clearly stated that excessive speculation (and that's all it can be) as to who is Moshiach is not part of Judaism in general or Lubavitch in particular.

The fact that Moshiach can be form someone who has passed away, is stated clearly in the Gemara (besides the Zohar and many other Seforim).

The RCA is within their rights to ask their membership to sign any paper they want, that these so called "RCA Rabbonim" disagree with all the Tanaaim and Amoraim, and that the RCA hold that the Tanaim and Amoroim are wrong for what they have said in the Gemoro.

The conservative and Reform have long said so openly, long ago, that they feel that they can argue on the Tanaim and Amoraim in Shas and now it seem that the RCA is beginning to say similar things in a more subtle way.

164

 Nov 25, 2009 at 06:59 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #160  
Halacha Says:

"why is the hehchal hakodesh of 770 adorned with Yechi Adonenu etc."

Good question. Perhaps we can answer it in light of Reb Moshe z'l's Tshuva in AH I s.46 referring to an Israeli flag in a shul:

"even though those who made the flag as a sign were wicked people...;

"even though it's definitely improper to bring the flag into a shul which is a holy place, and surely not on a permanent basis, and surely not next to the aron hakodesh...";

"it's not idolatry, it's futility and stupidity..."; (hevel vi'shtus)

"And if there is the ability, without machlokes, to uproot the entire subject of the flag so there would not be any rememberance of the deeds of the wicked it would probably be a good idea."

However Reb Moshe z"l repeats 3 times that it should be done peacefully and without machlokes. So I'll tell you what, If you can get those thousand Rabbis to peacefully remove the Israeli flags from their shuls, I'll see what I can do to peacefully take down the yechi signs from 770. If however you've suddenly become a big peacenik in regards to the flags, the signs stay for the same reason. fair enough?

Spell it out in plain English: the sign remains up there because, out of the thousands who frequent 770, there are a small number -- fifty at the very most -- who will beat up anyone who removes it. It has nothing to do with the wishes of the majority, or even of a large minority. Everyone just prefers not to mess with the Taliban. It's not worth it.

165

 Nov 25, 2009 at 07:02 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #161  
Anonymous Says:

It's one thing to say the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach based on some sources (albeit a concept not widelty accepted by most contemporary poskim), but those who proclaim him with certainty need professional help and spiritual guidance- they only discredit Lubavitch.

They also violate the kol koreh of the Agudas Chasidei Chabad which clearly stated that excessive speculation (and that's all it can be) as to who is Moshiach is not part of Judaism in general or Lubavitch in particular.

Why do you think they are in some way obligated to obey a kol korei from Aguch? Whether they're right or wrong, the kol korei is lo maaleh velo morid. They have no more reason to obey Aguch than they have to obey me or you.

166

 Nov 25, 2009 at 07:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

well well! so lets cut out pieces of tanach and kabbala to keep the rca happy? oh the gemara about reb avika was moshiach, maybe delete it from the gemara??
balia machlochaks

they already cut out the shalosh shevuos etc. - we know the Brisker Rov zya said there is no point wasting time fighting against Lubavitch messianism (although he called the Lubavitcher Rebbe zya a meshuginer) because we have to devote our time to fight against zionism because it is sakonos nefashos

167

 Nov 25, 2009 at 08:19 PM Rambam Says:

Reply to #151  
Milhouse Says:

If you actually learnt the mekoros, then why are you lying about them? Where does the Rambam say אם מת או נהרג? He doesn't; you made that up.

As for the RCA's requirements for admission, give me a break. Don't forget that the RCA was established because RIETS graduates weren't good enough to get into the Agudas Horabonim, and if they did get in they didn't understand anything because they couldn't speak Yiddish. The RCA is the RIETS alumni association, and I don't know why a Lubav would want to join. As far as I know Lubav rabbonim tend to join the Iggud Horabonim or the Agudas Horabonim.

See the Rambam's Yad Hachazoka, Hilchos Melochim, ch. 11 (free translation for vosizneias – the last word is “she’maisu,” “who died”):

"If a king of Davidic lineage arises who studies Torah and performs mitzvos as his forefather David, according to written and oral tradition, and compels all Jews to take up Torah’s ways, rally to its restoration, and fight the battles of G-d, then he is presumed to be Moshiach. If he is successful, defeats all the surrounding nations, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers in the Jewish Diaspora, then he is definitely Moshiach. If he does not succeed to this extent, or if he is slain, he certainly is not the one promised by Torah, but only like any other of the righteous and virtuous Davidic kings who died.”

You, "Milhouse," probably know this, but you prefer to repeatedly spout the Lubavitch-messianic myths, fairy-tales and deceptions. Please cut the crap.

168

 Nov 25, 2009 at 07:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #160  
Halacha Says:

"why is the hehchal hakodesh of 770 adorned with Yechi Adonenu etc."

Good question. Perhaps we can answer it in light of Reb Moshe z'l's Tshuva in AH I s.46 referring to an Israeli flag in a shul:

"even though those who made the flag as a sign were wicked people...;

"even though it's definitely improper to bring the flag into a shul which is a holy place, and surely not on a permanent basis, and surely not next to the aron hakodesh...";

"it's not idolatry, it's futility and stupidity..."; (hevel vi'shtus)

"And if there is the ability, without machlokes, to uproot the entire subject of the flag so there would not be any rememberance of the deeds of the wicked it would probably be a good idea."

However Reb Moshe z"l repeats 3 times that it should be done peacefully and without machlokes. So I'll tell you what, If you can get those thousand Rabbis to peacefully remove the Israeli flags from their shuls, I'll see what I can do to peacefully take down the yechi signs from 770. If however you've suddenly become a big peacenik in regards to the flags, the signs stay for the same reason. fair enough?

one rabbi tried (it was in VIN a few months ago - the rabbi from Virginia) and he got banned by NCYI and has a big redifus from the RCA, although he was never a member of the RCA nor tried to join them

169

 Dec 05, 2009 at 08:58 PM Anonymous Says:

I am very pro-Lubavitch and pro-Orthodox, so it troubles me to see fighting or belittlling between the two. I also have a problem with the Rebbe as Mashiach, though I think he was a great man. Chabad has done so many wonderful things to bring Yiddishkeit back to observance of mitzvot and back to Judaism.

Let's get back to Ahavas Israel and be less insular.

-- Moishe

170

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