New York - New Understanding of "Nashim Daatan Kalos" |
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fileNew York - The Gemorah in Shabbos (33b) has always been a source of deep controversy within the Torah world. The Gemorah states that Nashim daatan kalot – a statement that many have used to claim that the Rabbis are anti-women.
Perhaps though, Chazal were merely discussing the different ways in which women process information. Researchers using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to study brain activation have found that men and women respond differently to positive and negative stimuli, according to a study presented at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America.
“Men may direct more attention to sensory aspects of emotional stimuli and tend to process them in terms of implications for required action, whereas women direct more attention to the feelings engendered by emotional stimuli,” said Andrzej Urbanik, M.D., Ph.D., chair of Radiology at Jagiellonian University Hospital in Krakow, Poland.
For the study, Dr. Urbanik recruited 40 right-handed volunteers, 21 men and 19 women, between the ages of 18 and 36. The volunteers underwent functional MRIs - while viewing pictures from the International Affective Picture System (IAPS), a widely used, standardized testing system comprised of several thousand slides of various objects and images from ordinary life designed to evoke defined emotional states.
The images were displayed in two runs. For the first run, only negative pictures were shown. For the second run, only positive pictures were shown. While viewing the negative images, women showed decidedly stronger and more extensive activation in the left thalamus, which relays sensory information to and from the cerebral cortex, including the pain and pleasure centers. Men exhibited more activation in the left insula, which gauges the physiological state of the entire body and then generates subjective feelings that can bring about actions. Information from the insula is relayed to other brain structures involved in decision making. “The brain activation seen in the women might indicate stronger involvement of the neural circuit, which is associated with identification of emotional stimuli,” Dr. Urbanik said. “The more pronounced activation of the insular cortex in the men might be related to the autonomic components.”
The autonomic nervous system controls action oriented behaviors. It is therefore, possible that Chazal were discussing the fact that men are more likely to take action after stimulus than women do.
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Read Comments (56) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:01 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Is the phrase supposed to be an insult to women?
2
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:02 PM Robert Says:Report as Inappropriate
i guess this research supports the gemara
that nashim dataan kalos
3
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:11 PM Liepa Says:Report as Inappropriate
The Gemara also says 'Noshim hem aam acher' i.e. females are a different species than males.
4
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:14 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
That's why they are not trusted for bedikas chomets the night before pesach!
5
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:19 PM power up Says:Report as Inappropriate
Can someone translate this article in "english"?
6
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:17 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
This is an elegant effort at rationalizing sexist behavior and I find the whole concept patently offensive to yiddeshe women.
7
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:26 PM tzoorba Says:Report as Inappropriate
Rabbi Avigdor Miller z"l said that noshim daatum kalos does not mean that they are any less intelligent. It just means that they are more subject to persuasion and more bendable from logical conclusions due to persuasion or emotional appeals.
8
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:31 PM TheTruth Says:Report as Inappropriate
I love these VIN articles. Scientists have known for years that men and women use different parts of their brain for processing different types of information. Besides it still don't explain "nashim daaatan kalos" any more than before.
9
Nov 30, 2009 at 10:50 PM Dag Says:Report as Inappropriate
Notice, only the results from the negative stimuli are reported, and notice the hesitancy with which the conclusions are drawn.
10
Nov 30, 2009 at 11:03 PM joey Says:Report as Inappropriate
the writer of this article is implying that chazal would need support/confirmation from a couple of scientist, a very problematic approach, can the writer please explain his position so il be able to decide whether to continue reading his insights.
11
Nov 30, 2009 at 11:04 PM spitzer Says:Report as Inappropriate
we got to respect women they are taking care of the kids they are not talking by davnen in shul
12
Nov 30, 2009 at 11:16 PM little tzadik Says:Report as Inappropriate
To my knowledge the gemora was b4 sicentist and they take it from there as well so it all ends up from the same place go figure!!?
13
Nov 30, 2009 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
It also say's "Chochmas Noshim Bonsa Baisah" and it also say's that women are gifted with a Binah Yasairah so all you men out there please respect your wives and and listen to their opinions because most of the times they're right on the mark and are smarter then you.
14
Nov 30, 2009 at 11:33 PM Moishe Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ It also say's "Chochmas Noshim Bonsa Baisah" and it also say's that women are gifted with a Binah Yasairah so all you men out there please respect your wives and and listen to their opinions because most of the times they're right on the mark and are smarter then you. ”
I am thrilled to be able to say the bracha sh loh asani isha each day..
15
Nov 30, 2009 at 11:39 PM am ha'aretz Says:Report as Inappropriate
The gemora states that nashim datan kalos lefases ba'alehen. That when it comes lefasos ba'alehen - nashim daatan kalos. Not that they are stupid c"v. They are 'makil' to 'make their husbands happy' it is important to read the entire sentence
16
Nov 30, 2009 at 11:48 PM chosid Says:Report as Inappropriate
Women have an extra measure of bina and men have an extra measure of daas. This means that women are more emotional and men are more logical and action oriented.
17
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:03 AM lady Says:Report as Inappropriate
Going a little off topic, I once heard a cute vertl on this- nashim daatin- that young ladies continuously think in minds- kalos- about becoming kallahs!
18
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:05 AM lazyman's wife Says:Report as Inappropriate
In my home the man is very logical to the point to pushing off any required action because that is how it is logical to him.
19
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:09 AM Moshe Says:Report as Inappropriate
The Gmara akso says: Binah Yserih Baish. Women have more wisdom
20
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:28 AM mendy Says:Report as Inappropriate
nashim daatan kalos is not an insult! woman are refered to a s " akeres habayis" which means the mainstay of the home! torah respects woman! the gamara in bava metziah says that blessings enter a persons home inmerit of his wife! chazal also say " bina yesaira nitnah ba-isha" which this is a gr8 compliment! and how does these 2 sayings of chazal co-exist? if u learn the first couple of prakim of tanya, the alterrebbe explains the difference between chochmo and bina and daas, and based on those ex[plainations its true that woman have more bina, but are lacking in daas. its not an insult.
21
Dec 01, 2009 at 01:07 AM EMTMoishe Says:Report as Inappropriate
The Chofetz Chaim in Hilchos Simchas Yom-Tov repeats this line about the "irresponsible" shopping habits of women.
22
Dec 01, 2009 at 01:27 AM Charlie Hall Says:Report as Inappropriate
I can describe a simple imaging protocol that can give me a pretty good chance at distinguishing between a left handed person and a right handed person. I can't do that for distinguishing between men and women.
23
Dec 01, 2009 at 01:41 AM L Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The Gemara also says 'Noshim hem aam acher' i.e. females are a different species than males. ”
Wrong.
Noshim uma bifnei atzmon means that they are like a nation unto themselves, not a different specie.
24
Dec 01, 2009 at 02:12 AM Devorah Says:Report as Inappropriate
Wow. Dr. Urbanik used 40 entire people in his study? Alert the media! Someone, somewhere, may think something about some people, and here's a couple of test takers to prove it!
Seriously people. This is so below a blip on the scientific radar screen, it's unbelievable. To be actually impressed by this drivel, I would expect numbers in the thousands, and double blind tests to be done, where the gender was NOT known by the MRI examiners. Wake me up when this is rejected by Neuroscience Journal.
25
Dec 01, 2009 at 02:50 AM מהפך פשטא Says:Report as Inappropriate
One of the universities in Israel developed software which could analyze any novel, to determine if it was written by a male or female. Obviously, men and women think differently.
26
Dec 01, 2009 at 03:23 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am thrilled to be able to say the bracha sh loh asani isha each day.. ”
typical man-we ladies are happy being just who we are "sheasani cirtzono" but men are only happy when they are able to put somone else down!!
27
Dec 01, 2009 at 04:48 AM shlomo zalman Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Rabbi Avigdor Miller z"l said that noshim daatum kalos does not mean that they are any less intelligent. It just means that they are more subject to persuasion and more bendable from logical conclusions due to persuasion or emotional appeals. ”
Another clever attempt by Rav Miller to twist the facts so that his hashkafah comes out on top. A review of what the rishonim and achronim have said over the centuries makes it clear that women were viewed as less intelligent and less able to grasp intellectual concepts,thereby making their study of Torah and Talmud a waste of time .
Rav Miller had a fabulously successful technique of delivering his distorted messages.
28
Dec 01, 2009 at 06:56 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
The gemora needs no support or scientific evidence, we know that chazal are rock strong no matter what scientific research says.
29
Dec 01, 2009 at 07:55 AM a woman Says:Report as Inappropriate
#14- Moishe
As I am to say "Sh'asani Kirtzono" each day!
Noone has to spend time here explaining why women are worthwhile-
Hashem has created two different types of people. One is not better than the other. They are different. Period.
Both are necessary and have important jobs.
Much like the different shevatim, Cohen, Levi, Yisrael, etc.
Only someone who is not confident with who he/she is and why Hashem created him as he/she is has to go to lengths to explain.
Yes, it's true. Women's brains ARE wired differently than men's.
Different does not equal less.
30
Dec 01, 2009 at 08:38 AM Daatan kalos Says:Report as Inappropriate
The gemora in Shabbos takes it from Meseches kiddushin 80b. The gemorah is talking about yichud. That it is ossur for one man to be with two woman, as they have no problem 'being' with one man. kalos (as opposed to kepedos/ makpid) means that they are makel. not gd forbid stupid. I think this topic is totally stupid.
31
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:45 AM Ha ha Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ In my home the man is very logical to the point to pushing off any required action because that is how it is logical to him. ”
Thanks for the laugh. There are exceptions where certain men are less take action types and certain women are less emotional.
32
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:49 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The gemora states that nashim datan kalos lefases ba'alehen. That when it comes lefasos ba'alehen - nashim daatan kalos. Not that they are stupid c"v. They are 'makil' to 'make their husbands happy' it is important to read the entire sentence ”
Where is that Gemoro?
In Shabbos it refers to not being able to withstand pressure.
In Kedushin it refers to being easier enticed to sin.
As for the sexist issue, the claim is a farce. There is really nothing wrong in saying that Negroes are faster runners, and that Asians are smarter. It's a fact! Just like saying that women live longer, it's a fact. That women are more emotional is a fact! Same is with being Light-Headed. It is not putting down, just stating the biological difference between Man & Woman. G-d did this all with a purpose, so that each should be optimized for their purpose. And that is also a fact! No need to apologize!
33
Dec 01, 2009 at 02:18 AM issue Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ That's why they are not trusted for bedikas chomets the night before pesach! ”
you are not right, nushim are good for bdikas chometz, look Pesuchim 4b, & Shilchen Urich #431
34
Dec 01, 2009 at 10:02 AM Men are from Mars & Women are from Venus Says:Report as Inappropriate
No technical MRI's or brain scans are required to know that which every child can identify.
Keep it simple and the answers are VERY obvious and self explanatory and we don't need elaborate "scientific" research to explain what everyone of us is fully aware of, even a child.
For starters, how can anyone expect to make heads or tales out of a statement by Chazal about "Daaton Kalos" unless they first take out a dictionary and first know the ALEPH BEIS of the definition of the terminology.
There is:
1) Chochma
2) Bina and
3) Daas
Unless you know VERY clearly how the 3 differ and why and it's implications, it would be l;ludicrous to even try to explain what Daatan Kalos means before you have precise definitions and differentiations between the 3.
This is even more true, considering that Chazal specifically regarding women have made statements regarding all 3.
1) CHOCHMAS Noshim bonsa Bayis and similar statements regrading CHOCHMA
2) BINA yesera nitna Beisha
3) DAAS - as in Daatan Kalos
There is not enough space in a "comment" here, to fully explain the definitions but reading the Book Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus is a good start and it doesn't "INSULT" anyone.
35
Dec 01, 2009 at 10:22 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ the writer of this article is implying that chazal would need support/confirmation from a couple of scientist, a very problematic approach, can the writer please explain his position so il be able to decide whether to continue reading his insights. ”
Not an issue. Since the time of the gaonim, we have been prohibited from acting in accordance with Chazal's medical knowledge. I can't believe that we are disregarding that decree.
36
Dec 01, 2009 at 10:24 AM Expermient to ILLUSTRATE "Daatan Kalos" in action Says:Report as Inappropriate
Saying that Noshim Daatan Kalos does not preclude that SOME Men may have "Daatan Kalos", not that occasionally some women have the opposite of "Daatan kalos", rather it refers to a general rule of a general "most common pattern".
Here is an easy Experiment to illustrate the point:
Have a Man or a Women (you will get different effects depending if a Man or a Women, is saying it) walk in to a room full of 100 Men and announce to them that Bina Yesera Nitna Beisha....
How many men do you thing will respond by being VERY INSULTED that they are being "PUT DOWN" and that you have made that statement as an intended "INSULT" to men.
Answer: Very few if even any at all, will respond that way!
Next Experiment:
Go in to a room with 100 Women and announce to them that "Nashim Daatan Kalos".
How many women to you think are going to be VERY, VERY, VERY, insulted and outraged and verbally express that with a LOT of emotion of an abundance of anger and disgust and a large host of other negative emotions, because of the above statement?
Answer is that probably Most if not all (except that some of the 100 women will SAY it and the rest will THINK it).
Why? Is because as Chazal say that....
37
Dec 01, 2009 at 10:56 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This is an elegant effort at rationalizing sexist behavior and I find the whole concept patently offensive to yiddeshe women. ”
And therefore? Perhaps Chazal, which I assume you believe in, intended to state the facts. If you find it offensive so be it. By the way I have not noticed any pregnent men lately either. I don't mean to say they can't be pregnant. I mean I don't wish to offend anybody.
38
Dec 01, 2009 at 11:09 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
In the merit of holy women were we taken out of Mitzrayim.Women who were strong in their faith in Hashem, and faith in their leader. So too, we will merit the Geulah due to the NASHIM TZIDKONIOS of our generation.
39
Dec 01, 2009 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The gemora needs no support or scientific evidence, we know that chazal are rock strong no matter what scientific research says. ”
Kind of like the statement that the Earth is flat.
I wouldn't want to argue with *that* one!
40
Dec 01, 2009 at 11:48 AM This is dumb Says:Report as Inappropriate
Anyone who ever learned the gemara knows that da'atan kalos refers to the fact that women are guided by emotion rather than logic, and it mainly is used in reference to inyannim of znus.
41
Dec 01, 2009 at 11:54 AM frid Says:Report as Inappropriate
The halacha is that to be jewish, only the mother need be jewish, the father not having a role there... Does that represent discrimination against men? Yes it does, but it's for a good reason.... So in certain respects women are superior to men, (in this case the most important factor in enabling the continuity of the jewish people) so therefore this halacha reflects something superior about ladies, which men just don't have, its just part of reality; Likewise , 'nashim daatan kalos' is part of reality as the gemora states in reference to Bruria, who was considered a fairly smart lady.
42
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:31 PM Aryeh Says:Report as Inappropriate
I can immediately pick out which of the posters has problems with shalom bayis by reading the responses to this article. Those who insist that women are the same as men don't have the skills to keep a peaceful home. Those who acknowledge the differences in our minds have the ability to be a partner with their polar opposite, and not "two left feet". This is true of both the men and women who are posting.
43
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:33 PM alan Says:Report as Inappropriate
There seems to be no end to disrespect in our world. Disrespect of women being one...it inevitably leads to hatred..We need to rid ourselves of disrespect and concentrate on building our characters though Yiddishkeit.
44
Dec 01, 2009 at 12:38 PM haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Says:Report as Inappropriate
why women can handel 10 chidren
&cooking; supper& phone calls all at one because daton kalos
where men when they eat or on the phone don't try to talk....
45
Dec 01, 2009 at 01:19 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Where is that Gemoro?
In Shabbos it refers to not being able to withstand pressure.
In Kedushin it refers to being easier enticed to sin.
As for the sexist issue, the claim is a farce. There is really nothing wrong in saying that Negroes are faster runners, and that Asians are smarter. It's a fact! Just like saying that women live longer, it's a fact. That women are more emotional is a fact! Same is with being Light-Headed. It is not putting down, just stating the biological difference between Man & Woman. G-d did this all with a purpose, so that each should be optimized for their purpose. And that is also a fact! No need to apologize! ”
There's a lot wrong with saying Negroes are faster runners and Asians are smarter, mainly because it isn't true. In the thirties, Basketball and boxing were dominated by Jewish athletes, Were Jews better athletes than Negroes back then? Also, the ethnic group that consistantly scores the highest on standardized intelligence test isn't Asians. It's, wait for it, Ashkenazi Jews although, based on some of the posts on this blog, that fact is sort of hard to believe.
46
Dec 01, 2009 at 01:32 PM Right Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ why women can handel 10 chidren
&cooking; supper& phone calls all at one because daton kalos
where men when they eat or on the phone don't try to talk.... ”
Multitasking does not display having Daas nor not having Daas.
Bruriah being real and super frum Tzadekes, nevertheless, it was possible to have it arranged so that she would be seduced to sin and to top that off even more so, by the fact that she totally "lost it" (lost her Daas) and committed suicide afterwords, does display Daatan Kalos, very clearly, and unquestionably, as Chazal explain.
She is used as an example because:
No better and no more extreme example, can be illustrated.
But in a more milder form it's very typical of all women Chazal say, IF they were to be faced with similar challenge.
Of course most women don't do what Bruriah did but that is only because they have never faced the same challenge but if they did, most would be no different, C H A Z A L S A Y !
That is not a "put down" it simply acknowledges human nature.
All humans have weaknesses, both men and women but each have DIFFERENT types of weakness and different types of strengths.
47
Dec 01, 2009 at 02:05 PM AH Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Another clever attempt by Rav Miller to twist the facts so that his hashkafah comes out on top. A review of what the rishonim and achronim have said over the centuries makes it clear that women were viewed as less intelligent and less able to grasp intellectual concepts,thereby making their study of Torah and Talmud a waste of time .
Rav Miller had a fabulously successful technique of delivering his distorted messages. ”
And of course you can quote chapter and verse of where these supposed "rishonim and acharonim" said this, right?
Then, too, how do you have the gall to speak so insultingly of a talmid chacham like Rav Miller - you who don't reach even to his ankles in Torah knowledge and good character traits (the latter evidenced by what you just wrote)?!
48
Dec 01, 2009 at 04:13 PM hophmi Says:Report as Inappropriate
Sure, science may sometimes back Chazal up. I doubt it's going to work with everything Chazal say (or said). I am equally confused by people who insist that men and women are in no way different and people who assume that everything Chazal said was correct and that they somehow were not products of their time and somehow immune from making the same anecdotal, unsupported social and political judgments the rest of us do. The Jewish community would be a lot better off if we treated rabbeim past and present like honored human beings rather than like infallible demigods.
49
Dec 01, 2009 at 09:57 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ One of the universities in Israel developed software which could analyze any novel, to determine if it was written by a male or female. Obviously, men and women think differently. ”
I can "develop" such software too. The only problem is that it doesn't work.
51
Dec 02, 2009 at 12:10 AM mel Says:Report as Inappropriate
Bina yesaira nosna lenoshim, chocmas noshim bonsah baisa ,bishvil noshim tzikonios nigalo mimitzrayim,Sara was on the 11th madrega of nevuah, avrahom on the 10th,now what do u say???????????/ DAAs is not their thing ,its hair splitting logic which they dont have ,but all else they beat us big time.So TAM dont bring up stuff u dont know anything about
52
Dec 02, 2009 at 05:15 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
no need any medical or scientist experience to "prove" that women and men think different.... we both have positive and negative but this is where a couple works, to try to make one with difference
53
Dec 02, 2009 at 10:33 AM Simcha Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Bina yesaira nosna lenoshim, chocmas noshim bonsah baisa ,bishvil noshim tzikonios nigalo mimitzrayim,Sara was on the 11th madrega of nevuah, avrahom on the 10th,now what do u say???????????/ DAAs is not their thing ,its hair splitting logic which they dont have ,but all else they beat us big time.So TAM dont bring up stuff u dont know anything about ”
Again, two of the three statements you quoted, while ostensibly complimentary to women, are used to restrict their behavior.
54
Dec 02, 2009 at 11:25 AM Miss Williamsburg Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am thrilled to be able to say the bracha sh loh asani isha each day.. ”
Of course you are!!!!
You say it because you thank Hashem that you don't have to go through Pregnancy, childbirth and all the rest we women go through. In other words, you will never be capable of doing what we women do. It is a praise to us women everytime you say your Bracha of Shelo Asani Isha.
55
Dec 02, 2009 at 12:22 PM Simcha Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Of course you are!!!!
You say it because you thank Hashem that you don't have to go through Pregnancy, childbirth and all the rest we women go through. In other words, you will never be capable of doing what we women do. It is a praise to us women everytime you say your Bracha of Shelo Asani Isha.
”
According to the Shach or Taz (I can't remember offhand) the bracha of "She'asani kirtzono" is Tzidduk haDin... unlike the silly modern apologetics about women being created closer to "ratzon Hashem". Essentially, women begin their day by saying "I'm a woman. Baruch Dayan HaEmes."
But if it makes you feel better to think that my bracha of "Shelo Asani Isha" is a praise of women, go for it.
56
Dec 03, 2009 at 01:11 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ And of course you can quote chapter and verse of where these supposed "rishonim and acharonim" said this, right?
Then, too, how do you have the gall to speak so insultingly of a talmid chacham like Rav Miller - you who don't reach even to his ankles in Torah knowledge and good character traits (the latter evidenced by what you just wrote)?! ”
In fact I will.
Rav Levi ben Gershon (*Ralbag) in his perush lesefer shmos
והנה קרא האדם שם אשתו חוה, כאשר השיג בחולשת שכלה...שלא עלתה מדרגתה על שאר בעלי חיים עלוי רב"
Rambam hilchos Talmud Torah1:13
"הן מוציאות דברי הואי לפי עניות דעתן
Rav Shmuel Arkavalti (Venice, שי"ג)
אין ממשות ברוח עובר,גם לא תבונה באשה
For more, see Professor A. Grossman חסידות ומורדות, נשים יהודיות באירופה בימי הביניים
It's preposterous to pretend that many, if not most chachamim of yesteryear had very many nice things to say about women in general, whether in terms of their intellectual capacity or their ability to behave and function on a high level.
Rav Miller's attempt to hide this fact by disorting what chachamim really meant by nashim daatan kalos is typical . Knowingly using a cute but wrong explanation, he ignored the facts in order not to embarass his hashkafah of emunas chachamim, but when it came to attacking or belittling other hashkafahs he was full of vicious intolerance.