New York – New Understanding of “Nashim Daatan Kalos”

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    fileNew York – The Gemorah in Shabbos (33b) has always been a source of deep controversy within the Torah world. The Gemorah states that Nashim daatan kalot – a statement that many have used to claim that the Rabbis are anti-women.

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    Perhaps though, Chazal were merely discussing the different ways in which women process information. Researchers using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to study brain activation have found that men and women respond differently to positive and negative stimuli, according to a study presented at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America.

    “Men may direct more attention to sensory aspects of emotional stimuli and tend to process them in terms of implications for required action, whereas women direct more attention to the feelings engendered by emotional stimuli,” said Andrzej Urbanik, M.D., Ph.D., chair of Radiology at Jagiellonian University Hospital in Krakow, Poland.

    For the study, Dr. Urbanik recruited 40 right-handed volunteers, 21 men and 19 women, between the ages of 18 and 36. The volunteers underwent functional MRIs – while viewing pictures from the International Affective Picture System (IAPS), a widely used, standardized testing system comprised of several thousand slides of various objects and images from ordinary life designed to evoke defined emotional states.

    The images were displayed in two runs. For the first run, only negative pictures were shown. For the second run, only positive pictures were shown. While viewing the negative images, women showed decidedly stronger and more extensive activation in the left thalamus, which relays sensory information to and from the cerebral cortex, including the pain and pleasure centers. Men exhibited more activation in the left insula, which gauges the physiological state of the entire body and then generates subjective feelings that can bring about actions. Information from the insula is relayed to other brain structures involved in decision making. “The brain activation seen in the women might indicate stronger involvement of the neural circuit, which is associated with identification of emotional stimuli,” Dr. Urbanik said. “The more pronounced activation of the insular cortex in the men might be related to the autonomic components.”

    The autonomic nervous system controls action oriented behaviors. It is therefore, possible that Chazal were discussing the fact that men are more likely to take action after stimulus than women do.


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    57 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Is the phrase supposed to be an insult to women?

    Robert
    Robert
    14 years ago

    i guess this research supports the gemara
    that nashim dataan kalos

    Liepa
    Liepa
    14 years ago

    The Gemara also says ‘Noshim hem aam acher’ i.e. females are a different species than males.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    That’s why they are not trusted for bedikas chomets the night before pesach!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This is an elegant effort at rationalizing sexist behavior and I find the whole concept patently offensive to yiddeshe women.

    power up
    power up
    14 years ago

    Can someone translate this article in “english”?

    tzoorba
    tzoorba
    14 years ago

    Rabbi Avigdor Miller z”l said that noshim daatum kalos does not mean that they are any less intelligent. It just means that they are more subject to persuasion and more bendable from logical conclusions due to persuasion or emotional appeals.

    TheTruth
    TheTruth
    14 years ago

    I love these VIN articles. Scientists have known for years that men and women use different parts of their brain for processing different types of information. Besides it still don’t explain “nashim daaatan kalos” any more than before.

    Dag
    Dag
    14 years ago

    Notice, only the results from the negative stimuli are reported, and notice the hesitancy with which the conclusions are drawn.

    joey
    joey
    14 years ago

    the writer of this article is implying that chazal would need support/confirmation from a couple of scientist, a very problematic approach, can the writer please explain his position so il be able to decide whether to continue reading his insights.

    spitzer
    spitzer
    14 years ago

    we got to respect women they are taking care of the kids they are not talking by davnen in shul

    little tzadik
    little tzadik
    14 years ago

    To my knowledge the gemora was b4 sicentist and they take it from there as well so it all ends up from the same place go figure!!?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    It also say’s “Chochmas Noshim Bonsa Baisah” and it also say’s that women are gifted with a Binah Yasairah so all you men out there please respect your wives and and listen to their opinions because most of the times they’re right on the mark and are smarter then you.

    am ha'aretz
    am ha'aretz
    14 years ago

    The gemora states that nashim datan kalos lefases ba’alehen. That when it comes lefasos ba’alehen – nashim daatan kalos. Not that they are stupid c”v. They are ‘makil’ to ‘make their husbands happy’ it is important to read the entire sentence

    chosid
    chosid
    14 years ago

    Women have an extra measure of bina and men have an extra measure of daas. This means that women are more emotional and men are more logical and action oriented.

    lady
    lady
    14 years ago

    Going a little off topic, I once heard a cute vertl on this- nashim daatin- that young ladies continuously think in minds- kalos- about becoming kallahs!

    lazyman's wife
    lazyman's wife
    14 years ago

    In my home the man is very logical to the point to pushing off any required action because that is how it is logical to him.

    Moshe
    Moshe
    14 years ago

    The Gmara akso says: Binah Yserih Baish. Women have more wisdom

    mendy
    mendy
    14 years ago

    nashim daatan kalos is not an insult! woman are refered to a s ” akeres habayis” which means the mainstay of the home! torah respects woman! the gamara in bava metziah says that blessings enter a persons home inmerit of his wife! chazal also say ” bina yesaira nitnah ba-isha” which this is a gr8 compliment! and how does these 2 sayings of chazal co-exist? if u learn the first couple of prakim of tanya, the alterrebbe explains the difference between chochmo and bina and daas, and based on those ex[plainations its true that woman have more bina, but are lacking in daas. its not an insult.

    EMTMoishe
    EMTMoishe
    14 years ago

    The Chofetz Chaim in Hilchos Simchas Yom-Tov repeats this line about the “irresponsible” shopping habits of women.

    Charlie Hall
    Charlie Hall
    14 years ago

    I can describe a simple imaging protocol that can give me a pretty good chance at distinguishing between a left handed person and a right handed person. I can’t do that for distinguishing between men and women.

    Devorah
    Devorah
    14 years ago

    Wow. Dr. Urbanik used 40 entire people in his study? Alert the media! Someone, somewhere, may think something about some people, and here’s a couple of test takers to prove it!

    Seriously people. This is so below a blip on the scientific radar screen, it’s unbelievable. To be actually impressed by this drivel, I would expect numbers in the thousands, and double blind tests to be done, where the gender was NOT known by the MRI examiners. Wake me up when this is rejected by Neuroscience Journal.

    מהפך פשטא
    מהפך פשטא
    14 years ago

    One of the universities in Israel developed software which could analyze any novel, to determine if it was written by a male or female. Obviously, men and women think differently.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The gemora needs no support or scientific evidence, we know that chazal are rock strong no matter what scientific research says.

    a woman
    a woman
    14 years ago

    #14 - Moishe
    As I am to say “Sh’asani Kirtzono” each day!

    Noone has to spend time here explaining why women are worthwhile-
    Hashem has created two different types of people. One is not better than the other. They are different. Period.
    Both are necessary and have important jobs.
    Much like the different shevatim, Cohen, Levi, Yisrael, etc.

    Only someone who is not confident with who he/she is and why Hashem created him as he/she is has to go to lengths to explain.

    Yes, it’s true. Women’s brains ARE wired differently than men’s.
    Different does not equal less.

    Daatan kalos
    Daatan kalos
    14 years ago

    The gemora in Shabbos takes it from Meseches kiddushin 80b. The gemorah is talking about yichud. That it is ossur for one man to be with two woman, as they have no problem ‘being’ with one man. kalos (as opposed to kepedos/ makpid) means that they are makel. not gd forbid stupid. I think this topic is totally stupid.

    Men are from Mars & Women are from Venus
    Men are from Mars & Women are from Venus
    14 years ago

    No technical MRI’s or brain scans are required to know that which every child can identify.

    Keep it simple and the answers are VERY obvious and self explanatory and we don’t need elaborate “scientific” research to explain what everyone of us is fully aware of, even a child.

    For starters, how can anyone expect to make heads or tales out of a statement by Chazal about “Daaton Kalos” unless they first take out a dictionary and first know the ALEPH BEIS of the definition of the terminology.

    There is:

    1) Chochma
    2) Bina and
    3) Daas

    Unless you know VERY clearly how the 3 differ and why and it’s implications, it would be l;ludicrous to even try to explain what Daatan Kalos means before you have precise definitions and differentiations between the 3.

    This is even more true, considering that Chazal specifically regarding women have made statements regarding all 3.

    1) CHOCHMAS Noshim bonsa Bayis and similar statements regrading CHOCHMA
    2) BINA yesera nitna Beisha
    3) DAAS – as in Daatan Kalos

    There is not enough space in a “comment” here, to fully explain the definitions but reading the Book Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus is a good start and it doesn’t “INSULT” anyone.

    Expermient to ILLUSTRATE "Daatan Kalos" in action
    Expermient to ILLUSTRATE "Daatan Kalos" in action
    14 years ago

    Saying that Noshim Daatan Kalos does not preclude that SOME Men may have “Daatan Kalos”, not that occasionally some women have the opposite of “Daatan kalos”, rather it refers to a general rule of a general “most common pattern”.

    Here is an easy Experiment to illustrate the point:

    Have a Man or a Women (you will get different effects depending if a Man or a Women, is saying it) walk in to a room full of 100 Men and announce to them that Bina Yesera Nitna Beisha….

    How many men do you thing will respond by being VERY INSULTED that they are being “PUT DOWN” and that you have made that statement as an intended “INSULT” to men.

    Answer: Very few if even any at all, will respond that way!

    Next Experiment:

    Go in to a room with 100 Women and announce to them that “Nashim Daatan Kalos”.

    How many women to you think are going to be VERY, VERY, VERY, insulted and outraged and verbally express that with a LOT of emotion of an abundance of anger and disgust and a large host of other negative emotions, because of the above statement?

    Answer is that probably Most if not all (except that some of the 100 women will SAY it and the rest will THINK it).

    Why? Is because as Chazal say that….

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    In the merit of holy women were we taken out of Mitzrayim.Women who were strong in their faith in Hashem, and faith in their leader. So too, we will merit the Geulah due to the NASHIM TZIDKONIOS of our generation.

    This is dumb
    This is dumb
    14 years ago

    Anyone who ever learned the gemara knows that da’atan kalos refers to the fact that women are guided by emotion rather than logic, and it mainly is used in reference to inyannim of znus.

    frid
    frid
    14 years ago

    The halacha is that to be jewish, only the mother need be jewish, the father not having a role there… Does that represent discrimination against men? Yes it does, but it’s for a good reason…. So in certain respects women are superior to men, (in this case the most important factor in enabling the continuity of the jewish people) so therefore this halacha reflects something superior about ladies, which men just don’t have, its just part of reality; Likewise , ‘nashim daatan kalos’ is part of reality as the gemora states in reference to Bruria, who was considered a fairly smart lady.

    Aryeh
    Aryeh
    14 years ago

    I can immediately pick out which of the posters has problems with shalom bayis by reading the responses to this article. Those who insist that women are the same as men don’t have the skills to keep a peaceful home. Those who acknowledge the differences in our minds have the ability to be a partner with their polar opposite, and not “two left feet”. This is true of both the men and women who are posting.

    alan
    alan
    14 years ago

    There seems to be no end to disrespect in our world. Disrespect of women being one…it inevitably leads to hatred..We need to rid ourselves of disrespect and concentrate on building our characters though Yiddishkeit.

    haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    14 years ago

    why women can handel 10 chidren
    &cooking; supper& phone calls all at one because daton kalos
    where men when they eat or on the phone don’t try to talk….

    hophmi
    hophmi
    14 years ago

    Sure, science may sometimes back Chazal up. I doubt it’s going to work with everything Chazal say (or said). I am equally confused by people who insist that men and women are in no way different and people who assume that everything Chazal said was correct and that they somehow were not products of their time and somehow immune from making the same anecdotal, unsupported social and political judgments the rest of us do. The Jewish community would be a lot better off if we treated rabbeim past and present like honored human beings rather than like infallible demigods.

    mel
    mel
    14 years ago

    Bina yesaira nosna lenoshim, chocmas noshim bonsah baisa ,bishvil noshim tzikonios nigalo mimitzrayim,Sara was on the 11th madrega of nevuah, avrahom on the 10th,now what do u say???????????/ DAAs is not their thing ,its hair splitting logic which they dont have ,but all else they beat us big time.So TAM dont bring up stuff u dont know anything about

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    no need any medical or scientist experience to “prove” that women and men think different…. we both have positive and negative but this is where a couple works, to try to make one with difference

    josebar
    josebar
    6 years ago

    1st of all, A Shame parade in JERUUUSALEM , The Holiiii land ?????? Friends its not in the holiiii land its in the Democratic State of israel , a Democracy ,like USA England, Japan ,Germany A gov. of the people, by the people ,for the the PEEEpoll. Thats the state of Israel for you .Another Democracy in the Middle EEEEast WHATS THE PROBLEM. BUT!!!!! when Mashiach comes ,whatch out baby, these mushchasim will be wiped up by Cherev Hashem Molay dam. See Yirmiyahu 34 Kirvu goim leshmoah. There aint going to be a shred of rhem left., and !st the rishay yisroel will be obliterated. THE SCORE WILL BE SETTLED BIG TIME. ITS COMING QUICK, you feel it ???? #b 2 Noshim daton kalos ONLY IN ONE AREA IN PESAK DIN, otherwise they got us beat big time , Sara saved avrahan\m, rivka -yitzchak rachel -yaacov ,basya– moshe Esther the klall yisroel, yehudis (chanuka) from the Greeks , ashes On from Korach Yael ess bnai yisroel, there are many more. So those who cant learn chazal, shtok please. OH yea bishvil noshim tzidkoneos nigaloo avosainu memitzrayim that auta do it NO????????????