New York – The Gemorah discusses the incident in Nach where the men of Dan meet a descendant of Moshe Rabbeinu who is involved in servicing Avodah Zarah yet doesn’t believe in it himself. The men of Dan ask him how he could do such a thing and he responds with his mis-interpreted tradition that he claimed goes back to Moshe Rabbeinu” It is better to partake in Avodah Zarah – than to have to resort to charity. What Moshe Rabbeinu meant was to partake in work that he is unaccustomed to perform – i.e. a difficult or embarrassing job – rather than resort to charity.
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But what about taking money for the study of Torah?
Numerous people often quote a Rambam that says taking money for Kollel study is a Chilul Hashem – but few people quote the Tashbatz (Volume I Siman 142 and further). The Tashbatz writes that it is an obligation upon all Israel to support in a Kavodika manner the Chachomim and Dayanim of which Torah is their craft – so that their holy work will not have to be interrupted by regular work,so that they not appear before the masses of people as poor,and so that others will treat them with respect.
But what is the final halacha regarding this issue – if there, in fact, even is a halachic issue? Who won the halachic debate – the Tashbatz or the Rambam? The Bais Yoseph (Yore Deah 246) writes that the sages of each generation did not follow the minhag of the Rambam and doing so would cause the Torah to be forgotten.
A number of years ago, in a convention, Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal stated that nowadays even the Rambam would agree that the Kollels must be supported.
The truth is, however, that his words were preceeded by the Biur Halacha (OC 231 “HaKol”) in his understanding that nowadays even the Rambam would agree that Kollel people can be supported by Tzedaka funds. He, however, writes that the reason is that working and learning is not possible for the masses of people. Conditions, however, do change based upon economies and locations. It seems, perhaps, that the religious social conditions of Jews in the Chofetz Chaim’s times were similar to those we are currently experiencing – and his understanding of the Rambam was only on account of the economic hardships involved – not for the reasons stated by Rav Feinstein zatzal. If so, then the Chofetz Chaim would have held that the Rambam would have still held to his view if the economic conditions allowed for Torah learning and work at the same time.
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What About The Rambam That Says That In Our Days Everyone Who Wants Can Join “Shevet levi” Ie. Sit And Learn And Be Supported By The Rest of Klal yisrael?
Toiv Toirah im Derech Eretz. Im ain Derech Eretz, Toirah minayin?
“Harbei asu k’Rabbi Yishmael v’alsa b’yadan; k’Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai v’lo alsa b’yadan”
Kol she’ainoi melamed es b’noi toirah, melamdoi listus.
Rabbi Yitzchok Nafcha, Rabbi Yochanan haSandler, etc; Rabbi Shmuel Hanaggid, Rashi, Rambam, etc; Chofetz Chaim, etc…
All this is relevant if the bnei kollel are dedicating their lives to Torah study. What about if they arrive in the beis hamedrash to daven at 10 (long after the zmanei kriyas shema and tefilloh), shmooze for an extra hour, visit the kollel for an hour, go home for lunch, return for a measly hour or two in the afternoon, and have no night seder because of their family responsibilities. Itchy skin becomes a serious illness, allowing for absences from even these few hours. Unfortunately, much of this is observed in too many places. Should anyone support this? Or should we invoke the Rambam? Maybe the Rambam was suggesting the limiting of community funds for those bnei kollel that are true leaders in the making, that our community so desperately needs. Just wondering.
Everybody should get a chance a year or two to learn and get scholarships from Kollel (every father when asked on his particular son: Do you want your son to be thrown into Manhattan offices a day after Sheva brachos all and everyone would say no they need some time to stabilize) now after the year or two the Kollel should be meant only the ones that put in at least 10-11 hours a day and accomplish! The others should make sure to have a shiur of an hour in morning AND at night.
I hope my father-in-law doesn’t read this
boy you really opened a pandoras box with this most explosive issue
i would venture to say that kollel isnt for everyone and anyone ,but for a new couple to start off their married life with a year or 2 spent learning in kollel if a)the fellow is really going to learn b)that both families agree to support the couple in the begining.this allows for a foundation of torah to start off the new bayis neeman biysroel
beyond the year or 2 only one who is really serious about learning and is responsible treating kollel as a full time job “toraso umnoso” intending to attain smicha or eventually go into chinuch or rabbonos or kiruv outreach etc one should join the multidude and go out and get a job like the rest of us
the gemora says echod mayelef yotzee lohra 1 out of a thousand will eventually become a mora hora biyisroel .
their is an organization in eretz yisroel supported by mr romi cohen shlita that fully supports 5 yungerliet for 5 years each year a different 5 promising bright torah scholars are chosen by the gedolim of eretz yisroel after being tested on many miktzoso hatorah and seem to have a bright future to be elegible for this program
I agree with the previous post. Also, look into the Siforno on the posuk in Beraishis, ch29 posuk 18, when Yakov offers to work for 7 years for Rachel. The seforno says, Ain Sofik (strong language) that a tzadok would not marry to have children with her if he doesnt have parnasa to support them! In other words, Yakov wanted to prove to Lavan that he can support his daughter and grandchildren! what happened to meiseh avos simin lebonim??
It is a historical fact that in pre-War Europe, out of 9 Million Jews, the majority of whom were frum, only 3500-4000 bachurim learned in Kollel. That includes, Mir, Kaminitz. Veloshin, etc. Today, out of a USA Jewish population of 5 Million of whom only 10% are frum, tens of thousands learn in Kollel. Lakewood, on its own, probably has as much enrollment in Kollel as the whole of Europe had before the war. My father, a’h, a talmid in Kaminitz, used to refer to the current Kollel population as “laydegayers”. The Rambam is turning over in his grave.
I agree to 1 year, 1 and a half year Kollel for a new couple, regradless the learning capabiliites of the yungerman
Then, if someone wants to continue kolleil, he should be tested every semester in his learning
“…so that their holy work will not have to be interrupted by regular work,so that they not appear before the masses of people as poor,and so that others will treat them with respect.”
I’d respect them a great deal more if they worked for a living. Many rabbis in the Talmud managed to work in honest jobs… blacksmith, woodcutter, etc. Maybe the rabbis in today’s kollel feel that they’re on a much higher madrega than the folks from the Talmud…
This discussion will soon become purely theoretical because we do not have sufficient wealth in the community to maintain all our day schools and kollels.
There are sources from Gemorah, Rishonim, Acharonim, and Sifrei Chasidus saying that it isn’t advisable for one to be supported in Learning, on the other side we see Igros Moshe saying that if one thinks he isn’t “made” for staying in learning i is only the Yetzer horah working on him… So, as previously said, i believe one should take rabbinical advice before going into Kolel and getting supported by the Tzibur…
Does anyone know an impartial honest truthful Rov that would have enough back bone to tell someone to go to work where necessary?
Also, those boys who come back from Yeshiva Before Marrying (Chas Vesholom!!)becasue parents can’t afford supporting him… why aren’t Rabbonim openly saying that there is nothing wrong to learn a Parnosoh before getting married?
Staying in learning is a priviledge and a Heter.. and it should be considered as such
While I definitely agree that it is important to learn, I really think that full time learning in exchange for actually working should be reserved for a special group of people.Pretty soon the money will run out and the next generation ( well even this one) will not be able to rely on their family for financial help.So many (not all of course-G-d forbid) use learning full time as an excuse to be lazy.Get a job! So many people want to just get married and play house but don’t want the responsibility of having their own parnasa.I’m sick of so many Jews relying on government money (my tax dollars) for everything.Wic,medicaid etc.I understand that many need it for legit reasons and that is fine.But it sure takes a lot of nerve to leech off others when most are fully able to get off their behinds and work.