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Suffern, NY - Rabbi Tropper's Statement To Recent Events

Published on: December 24, 2009 07:36 AM
By: Statment Released By His Legal Counsel
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Rabbi Troppers Statement To Recent EventsRabbi Troppers Statement To Recent Events

Suffern, NY - Rabbi Leib Tropper’s response to recent allegations has been delayed until now in deference to his legal counsel.

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Events of recent weeks have caused Rabbi Tropper great anguish, in particular given his recognition that the high standard of ethics in the Jewish community is one of its most treasured principles.

He wishes to express his regret for the turmoil caused by his departure from the Eternal Jewish Family organization and for what has appeared to be conduct not within our significant laws of modesty. Rabbi Tropper now looks forward to a return to both his studies and time with his loving family, as well as to personal introspection. He thanks those outside his closest circle of friends for respecting his privacy.



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Read Comments (127)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:50 AM chochom Says:

This is not a denial. Allegations of behaviour this outrageous requires a better response. I'm saddened by the conclusion this leads me to.

2

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:49 AM iib002 Says:

So, is this then an admission to his wrong doings?

3

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:46 AM Anonymous Says:

what a disgrace!! I hope they look for the "Satmar" and all others involved and remove them from their positions as well.

4

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:45 AM aron Says:

whoa johnny!!!!!! can someone please explain

5

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:44 AM Loshon Hora Says:

Waht does it mean? Is it an admition? A very pareve comment, is he on the way to vindication, just holding out?

6

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Well well well now let him resign from his yeshiva

7

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:55 AM fact! Says:

This is news for what it does not say rather than for what it does!

8

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

9

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:06 AM Joey Says:

Loving family life" they need some real counseling....

10

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:06 AM Anonymous Says:

First, note that this wasn't a denial.

In addition, this statement writes of Judaism's "high standard of ethics" and "our significant laws of modesty." To me these seem like excuses (just like when it wrote "appeared to be" improper); that the harsh strictures of the law were simply to great for a normal person to keep. However, in this instance, the accusations are sordid and, if true, it did not require high standards or significant laws to avoid but, rather, normal and accepted standards of Western culture. Ask yourself if a normal ethical person in the same position of authority would act this way.

Moreover, the accusations are particularly galling given EJF's position in regard to how it treated the conversion standards of other Orthodox groups like the RCA. How can one publically attack the legitimacy of the conversions by other frum people and then not be able deny doing things such as this behind closed doors!

Finally, "His Legal Counsel" is not an entity. The law firm or lawyer making the statement is. We should know who was retained by R' Tropper to write this and defend him.

11

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:27 AM Anonymous Says:

"allegations"??? There is proof, they have him on tape being quite "immodest " with another woman (not his wife, not even Jewish yet

12

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:23 AM moshe Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

First, note that this wasn't a denial.

In addition, this statement writes of Judaism's "high standard of ethics" and "our significant laws of modesty." To me these seem like excuses (just like when it wrote "appeared to be" improper); that the harsh strictures of the law were simply to great for a normal person to keep. However, in this instance, the accusations are sordid and, if true, it did not require high standards or significant laws to avoid but, rather, normal and accepted standards of Western culture. Ask yourself if a normal ethical person in the same position of authority would act this way.

Moreover, the accusations are particularly galling given EJF's position in regard to how it treated the conversion standards of other Orthodox groups like the RCA. How can one publically attack the legitimacy of the conversions by other frum people and then not be able deny doing things such as this behind closed doors!

Finally, "His Legal Counsel" is not an entity. The law firm or lawyer making the statement is. We should know who was retained by R' Tropper to write this and defend him.

you are so right. tropper makes it sound that all he got was a speeding ticket. Faker Phony Fraud that he is

13

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:20 AM The Beadle Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

Are you sober?

14

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:19 AM moshe Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

you moron. where did he admit what he did? he gave a comment that every politician caught with his pants down gives. " I apolgize for the turmoil?" " not being tznius" this u call an admission? did he say CHOTOSIE like yehudah did in last weeks parsha?.You are a fool because you don't realize for a second the magnitude of the avla he has caused and also by his trying to sweep this under the rug like all he just got was a speeding ticket.

15

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

where do you see regret? The only regret is he got caught-he is a fraud and commited a crime against the whole jewish people-he was watching our door and
letting anyone in for sex-how can you not see that? Imagine a mashgiach at a restaurant turning a blind eye for sex--this is 100 times worse!!

16

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:34 AM fact! big difference! Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

1) I doubt its only 1 matter he has strayed 2) you cannot call someone an "erliche yid" after doing such things. A yid, yes; but not erlich! 3) its not just immoral its degrading. He wasn't busted watching pornography or having an affair, way worse. Sickening disgusting perverted things 4) let his downfall motivate us to change!

17

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:33 AM V'hoemes Nehderes Says:

This "statement" sounds and feels like nothing more than another paid Public Relations Release. Its brazen chutzpah and disregard for the reality of events only compounds and magnifies the humongous chilul Hashem!

B'ikvisa d'moshicha yihiyeh beis vaad l'znus - v'hoemes neheders!
V'chol bais yisroel yivku es hachilul Hashem hanorah!

18

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:32 AM Anonymous Says:

What about the conversions that he approved? Don't they have to be investigated to see if they were subjected to undue pressure to sin.

19

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:32 AM V'hoemes Nehderes Says:

Hashem yeracheim!! Afar l'pumeh!
**Since when does legal counsel advise the delay of a statement of innocence & denial?!

**Rabbi Tropper has been caused "great anuish"?!! Not Klall Yisroel and our Torah?!!

**His recognition of "Hihgest standard of ethics" - as if the problem is his 'not rising to be the ba'al madreigah hamevukash' - Instead of the lowly ba'al taivah hamenuval v'ham'naef?!!

**He's apologizing for the turmoil caused by "his departure" instead of the horrendous chilul Hashem caused by his ma'aseh nevalah?!! . . .

**for what "appeared" to be conduct "not within . . . modesty"?!! What it's 'possible' he went out in his bathrobe to get the morning newspaper - as opposed to his engaging in shtufay zimah?!?!

**He looks forward to going back to his studies (guess he wasn't studying while 'engaging' in EJF activities?!) . .oh and also "personal introspection" - is that cheshbon hanefesh & Teshuva? As an END thought - instead of 'Rabbi Tropper looks forward to spending the next few years in bitter self imposed galus l'teshuva for his maaseh mitzrayim, pouring out his heart for the unforgivable chilul Hashem he caused?!

20

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:38 AM lishma Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

this was not a behaviour a talmid chachum can permit himself to do this is a behaviour of a lowlife who doesnt care about any rules or laws or for that matter torah its despicable behaviour a shame on us all yiddin

21

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:49 AM Satmar 101 Says:

"Rabbi Leib Tropper’s response to recent allegations has been delayed until now in deference to his legal counsel."
Legal counsel? I am not a lawyer nor a son of a lawyer, can someone explain why he needs legal counsel?

23

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
V'hoemes Nehderes Says:

Hashem yeracheim!! Afar l'pumeh!
**Since when does legal counsel advise the delay of a statement of innocence & denial?!

**Rabbi Tropper has been caused "great anuish"?!! Not Klall Yisroel and our Torah?!!

**His recognition of "Hihgest standard of ethics" - as if the problem is his 'not rising to be the ba'al madreigah hamevukash' - Instead of the lowly ba'al taivah hamenuval v'ham'naef?!!

**He's apologizing for the turmoil caused by "his departure" instead of the horrendous chilul Hashem caused by his ma'aseh nevalah?!! . . .

**for what "appeared" to be conduct "not within . . . modesty"?!! What it's 'possible' he went out in his bathrobe to get the morning newspaper - as opposed to his engaging in shtufay zimah?!?!

**He looks forward to going back to his studies (guess he wasn't studying while 'engaging' in EJF activities?!) . .oh and also "personal introspection" - is that cheshbon hanefesh & Teshuva? As an END thought - instead of 'Rabbi Tropper looks forward to spending the next few years in bitter self imposed galus l'teshuva for his maaseh mitzrayim, pouring out his heart for the unforgivable chilul Hashem he caused?!

exactly.... very well put. He makes it sound like he 'may' have done a slight moral infraction, as opposed to breaching the Torah, all known ethical and moral standards, and possibly the law. This isn't even a denial or an admission, it's a weaselly way of saying "bug off", and while I do believe that its his business at this point (unless it turns out he was doing something that harmed the public directly), this statement is possibly the most inappropriate thing he could have come up with.

24

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:43 AM Simcha Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

In the same manner that he left the geirim alone who may have had an indiscretion? He is a disgrace to the community and should be forced to resign every rabbinic position in shame. He is a hypocrite of the worst order and deserves everything he is getting because of how he treated the geirim and other rabbonim.

25

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:43 AM Still Turned On to Yiddishkeit Says:

There's a very interesting saying. Nisht kein antfort iz oich an antfort. Not denying and asking for privacy is a very fudgy way of saying I did it, leave me alone. Of course we believe in teshuva and I'll even grant him that he is truly sorry for what he did. But go he must and go he did. The onus is on the "gedolim" who try to cover up one of their own by saying how great he is and the tragedy of his departure. The tragedy is that a so-called godol would do something like this, take advantage of his position to sin egregiously. I'm old enough to understand that al taamin b'atzmecho and that anybody can sin. But what about our youth who look at this "roshyeshiva" and get turned off? If Joe Doe does this, no chilul Hashem, no turn offs. Yep, this is a Jewish tragedy.And the tragedy must be great for his poor "loving" family with whom he wants to spend more time.

29

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:10 AM Moish Says:

Anyone who reads between the lines will see clearly that this is essentially a formally worded confession. The question is where he goes from here in terms of the yeshiva he heads, hopefully he will give that up. Very tragic, but I don't believe that he was always insincere, obviously something snapped along the way that caused this behavior. We cannot judge.

30

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:09 AM Darling Says:

It says: "... what has appeared to be conduct not within our significant laws of modesty. ...."
" ... Appeared ..." (it ONLY appears to be wrong, but maybe isn't L'choil Hadeiois)???
I cannot even imagine any Rabbi (Shul, Yeshiva etc.) that I know referring to any female (outside of his own family, of course) as "... Darling ..." .
Even if this is the only thing he did wrong, it's bad enough.
Maybe we expect too much from our K'lei Koidesh today.
Niskatnu Hadoirois.

31

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:07 AM FullofKarp Says:

All of these freaks should be locked up. Say you did it, be a man and live up to the responsibilites of the people you hurt.

33

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:40 AM moshie Says:

He as a person is so full of him self and thinkgs he is higher thenn god a hugh misnagid who put ppl the whole time,,, let this show the world what a bitter misnagid is...

M.

34

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:45 AM Anonymous Says:

I dont think I have ever been so embarassed of anything Jewish until this point. The absolute Chillul Hashem that this man (NO - I will NOT refer to him as a Rabbi) committed is worse than anything Bernie Madoff could have hoped to do. If this man were to learn just a little about what Chillul Hashem means, what it does to Shechinah, he would do much more to repent and not worry about cute little PR stunts like this statement.

Add to this the Spinka "Rebbe" being sentenced to jail for laundering money and a Yeshivah teacher being arrested at home this morning for molesting students, and you have a triple crown of Chillul Hashem this week.

35

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

Perhaps not. But I can not consider him a spiritual leader. Let anyone do what they wish. But do not push yourself as a leader of the Jewish people when you act this way. It is fraud on the rest of us.

36

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:

"He thanks those outside his closest circle of friends for respecting his privacy."

After devoting years to preying on the weakest members of our community to exploit them for money and sex, he has the nerve to ask the rest of us to respect his privacy on this matter?

It is ALL of our business to know when the vulnerable in our community are being attacked. Because it was really an attack on our entire community - he was only able to catch a few, but I'm sure he would have taken advantage of any woman in our community had he been able to. If one member of our community is being used and hurt, we should all feel the pain - because we are one people.

So, Rabbi Tropper - NO, I will not respect your privacy on this matter!

37

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:57 AM Truth Says:

This statement is a disgrace. I have no words.

Doesn’t he and his legal counsel realize that he owes a honest apology to the frum community not a statement making nothing of his disgraceful actions, as if Torah and the frum community are responsible.

He makes it sound like we all lost out by him leaving the EJF. Doest he understand that a person like him doesn’t belong in any Torah leadership position? We are happy he is out!

This story is only getting worse!!!

What do we say to our youth and young couples seeing all this???

38

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:59 AM Alex Says:

Note how this monster is not apologizing to the victims and the community for the horror and the chillul hashem he caused. Tropper "now looks forward to a return to both his studies and time with his loving family." Amazing how he would not even have his wife stand next to him. Also why dud he abandon his "studies" when he was the head of EJF? What a disgrace of a man he is!

39

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:01 AM meforsom shel sheker Says:

My dear friends; who from amongst can honestLy say that he never sinned in the earea of kedusha who

40

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:01 AM mt mehdi Says:

What a low life. I wish he would take off that hat and beard and at least put on a pair of jeans and baseball cap.

41

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

give me a brake. you sin its a stain . yes you can come back on the road but now your behind the others and cathing up take time. the higher you are the harder you fall. people should think before they do somthing wrong and crazy when you are a so called big rabbi.

42

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:08 AM Some honesty at least now Says:

He says he is going back to his studies and time with his loving family.

How about looking for some serious guidance for Teshovah on what you did?
You need to do Teshvah not just what you did to yourself and your family but for deceiving the frum community!

Some honesty at least now!

43

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Are his convertions null and void?

It seems he is not an orthodox rabbi, so we must presume his convertions are neither according to Torah, nor acceptable.
It appears that even HE does not accept all the mitzvos!

44

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:

i think his statment is good and professional. it was the right thing. listen we people arent made out of stone, we have desires lust ect. we arent perfect. he got caught and is repending...the only thing i ask for is if we arent as holy as we make ourselves, for g-ds sake lets be kind to people. i am not refering to leib tropper am referring to his org. why do we have to place added to chumras to converts and then have the insensitivity to revoke a gueres once they people work so hard to convert. the same emnchshlichkeit you want people to extend to the leib tropper extend to these converts.....in general any rav or lay leader whom harps on extra chumras or ionsensativity to others in my book is a nobody and not a mensch. a person who learns torah and goes by torah has and must be a bal middos tovas period.

45

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM Koifeir BaKoil Says:

Reply to #29  
Moish Says:

Anyone who reads between the lines will see clearly that this is essentially a formally worded confession. The question is where he goes from here in terms of the yeshiva he heads, hopefully he will give that up. Very tragic, but I don't believe that he was always insincere, obviously something snapped along the way that caused this behavior. We cannot judge.

Confession???
You must be kidding, or, not used to the nuances of the English language.
Koidem Kol, he cites his resignation as the first cause of "great anguish", and then
refers to his (in effect) sin of Mar'is Ayin ("... and for what has APPEARED TO BE conduct not within our significant laws of modesty. ...")
As anyone can plainly see, the Mar'is Ayin is only the Tofeil, whereas, the resignation is the Ikor (unless you want to say that he is being Ma'alin B'koidesh -- I highly doubt that is the case).
Why mention the resignation at all? ... It is completely irrelevant. It also distracts the reader from the real issue, i.e. the alleged misconduct.
The only thing he admitted, is that people may be Choisheid him, to put it in simple tems.
I think he is saying: "My greatest Aveiroh was being caught".

46

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:26 AM What privacy Says:

You can’t expect privacy if you made yourself a public person and then violated our trust!
You have not just disgraced yourself but you disgraced the whole frum community in the most horrible way!

47

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:35 AM Ich shaym zich oych nisht Says:

Reply to #14  
moshe Says:

you moron. where did he admit what he did? he gave a comment that every politician caught with his pants down gives. " I apolgize for the turmoil?" " not being tznius" this u call an admission? did he say CHOTOSIE like yehudah did in last weeks parsha?.You are a fool because you don't realize for a second the magnitude of the avla he has caused and also by his trying to sweep this under the rug like all he just got was a speeding ticket.

Your personal name calling , rather than deal with the issues is also quite disturbing as VIN has repeatedly asked commentators not to make derogatory adjective personal nasty name calling.
u are the exception to this disgusting behavior.

48

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:50 AM Anonymous Says:

what you all are saying i said months ago for this is not the only matter he is involved in he also try ed to steal 100 of thousands of $ from a very rich man whom i know personally and accused him of thinking he was mashiach and this was years of trust and "companionship" he also damaged my friends reputation because than he was considered a "holy rabbi" what i think is that any "rabbi"
who is involved in any sort of public money dispute and does not back down for ethical reasoning than you already know ...............

49

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:53 AM Chaim Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

Dude, what world do you live in. I cant even begin to brake down how just plain dumb you're comment is - I hope you are being ironic.

Anything negative I would say about Tropper would not cover how low this guy (and his wife) is. and this pathetic statement just makes him look worse - if thats possible.

50

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Seems to be that there are "certain" people involved in this incident that are being very well shielded by others, with keeping things on the low-down. The entire story has not yet broken, as there are very big players involved in this story.

51

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:57 AM goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

52

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM SimchaB Says:

Reply to #33:You're the one one who sounds bitter and pathetic. How many "Misnagdim" did something like this? (Your use of the term "misnaged" shows your chabad orientation, they are the only ones who still use this term instead of "Litvish") Get over it, it's not Vilna of 200 odd years ago!

53

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

Are his convertions null and void?

It seems he is not an orthodox rabbi, so we must presume his convertions are neither according to Torah, nor acceptable.
It appears that even HE does not accept all the mitzvos!

Baruch Hashem, he never sat on the beis din for any of the conversions. So hopefully the conversions will still be considered kosher, otherwise he has another aveirah to answer for.

54

 Dec 24, 2009 at 12:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

Goldy, I know you and hope that this is not really you writing but someone using your name. Have you lost all sense of decency? You are wrong on every level, from a torah point of view, from a decency point of view and amazingly wrong for pretending that this is only smoke without fire when you have intervened in so many relationships because you thought that the smoke is fire.

I would tell you to speak to a Rav for some clarity but the problem is that the rabbis you choose are like tropper, greenwald etc.

SHAME SHAME, I hope none of your relatives ever read your post

55

 Dec 24, 2009 at 12:20 PM Anonymous Says:

in response to goldy rosenberg post # 51 "There was no “victim”.

is that line a joke??????? so most rabbis that do conversions, ask for phone sex for his buddies??? and sex for himself?????? ask to squeeze the women???? talk about certain positions his wife likes and doesnt like???? thats normal to you???? goldy, no disrespect but u need a heavy dose of reality..............there certainly were victims here...and tropper aint one of them my friend

56

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:43 AM Yisrael Chaim Says:

I have met Rabbi Tropper many times, I have Davened Next to Him on Rosh Hashana , I have heard him give Shmuzim, I know people who he has made frum, That being said, When I heard this, I thought "absolutely Impossible" . .......Then I heard the tapes, which if you have ever met him are Irrefutable. Being somewhat of a Baal Teshuva myself , I am truly sickened by the depravity of this man(I refuse to call him a Rav ) He used Halacha , and His rabbanus for perverted purposes , . To the people who stick up for him, you really speak to the fact that so many people in the "Yeshivish world" (whatever that means) have Blinders on and don have the capacity to see how disgusting this situation is. Sadly , Its Very typical, the same closed minded , Racist, Sexist ,exclusionary , people who claim to represent Judaism , refuse to accept that this man,(refused to admit the Molestation and the kids at risk issue too) ) took advantage of what could be countless people , or at the very least 3 or for people. Additionally he made a Huge Chilull Hashem . Please wake up and dont stick up for this excuse for a human Being . Not that any of you will listen..................

57

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

In order to do "tshuvah" one has to ask mechilah from all those that they hurt.

58

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

"allegations"??? There is proof, they have him on tape being quite "immodest " with another woman (not his wife, not even Jewish yet

She works for the EJF, and if you google her, you can see everything she does for Jewish causes and for Kiruv. She desperately wants to be Jewish and is already jewish in her heart and soul. Her myspace page and other websites is full of Jewish causes and Jewish links. It is a real nebech and rachmonus how this woman was used and abused.

59

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Satmar 101 Says:

"Rabbi Leib Tropper’s response to recent allegations has been delayed until now in deference to his legal counsel."
Legal counsel? I am not a lawyer nor a son of a lawyer, can someone explain why he needs legal counsel?

Are you kidding me? Have you heard the words "law suit" or "fraud charges"?

60

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM Jude Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

You said that you know the tropper family well, OK, so you feel bad, that's understandable but please don't insult our intelligence by trying to defend him.

61

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM MLB Talmid Says:

Tropper has a long history of azus! in 1985 he was invited to speak in Mesivta of Long Beach, in the speech he criticized the masters of the Mussar movement the Rosh Yeshiva declared at that time that he would never be invited back.

I remember the shock and the ensuing tumult he caused in the Yeshiva.

62

 Dec 24, 2009 at 12:02 PM Hamaor Shel Torah Machziro Lmutav Says:

I know this will not be popular on this forum but I will say it anyways. I think that despite all that has transpired we need to allow time to heal and bottom line is he is a groise talmid chochom, the fact is that he got his smicha from HaRav Shach z"l and therefore I believe that despite all that has happened all the Torah that he learned in the beis midrash and that he was marbitz borabim which you cannot take away from him certainly will not go to waste ch"v but "HaMaor Shebah Machziro L'mutav". I'd like anyone to challenge me on this as this is what our great chazal tell us about the power of Torah notwithstanding any aveira one might commit.

63

 Dec 24, 2009 at 12:04 PM rav chaim Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

"He thanks those outside his closest circle of friends for respecting his privacy."

After devoting years to preying on the weakest members of our community to exploit them for money and sex, he has the nerve to ask the rest of us to respect his privacy on this matter?

It is ALL of our business to know when the vulnerable in our community are being attacked. Because it was really an attack on our entire community - he was only able to catch a few, but I'm sure he would have taken advantage of any woman in our community had he been able to. If one member of our community is being used and hurt, we should all feel the pain - because we are one people.

So, Rabbi Tropper - NO, I will not respect your privacy on this matter!

This is the approach that we all need to adopt that will correct the horrible behavior that is occurring in the frum world. People who violate certain halachos become pasul l'eidus, which means that they are publicly stigmatized.....their word is no longer accepted for anything and they are considered "chasud" suspect characters.
If we would stop sympathizing with people who are sitting in jail and condemning them, causing them embarassment, this will be a strong deterrence to such behavior in the future.

64

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:12 PM Oscar Says:

Reply to #61  
MLB Talmid Says:

Tropper has a long history of azus! in 1985 he was invited to speak in Mesivta of Long Beach, in the speech he criticized the masters of the Mussar movement the Rosh Yeshiva declared at that time that he would never be invited back.

I remember the shock and the ensuing tumult he caused in the Yeshiva.

As one who knows RT, I must say I am suprised to hear that. It is certainly not his style to do that. He even once corrected me on calling the Gedolim "Guys" when I attended his yeshiva. I would venture to say there was a misunderstanding.

65

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:10 PM Anonymous Says:

This is the best the legal counsel can come up with? He will still have followers defending his every move.

66

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:09 PM Chani Says:

to #51 - He has damaged the respect and trust of every single Rabbi in the world. Period

67

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:09 PM goldy rosenberg Says:

jude -- this is not about defending him. This is about challenging you all to ask yourself, "what does G-d expect of us with these circumstances". And, based on Torah sources, I would say that trashing the man and his family is not the way to go.

68

 Dec 24, 2009 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

goldy, I hope you're trying to keep conversation heated, but in case you weren't:

R' Tropper wasn't governor but a rabbinic leader/rosh yeshiva - a moral authority.

This was abuse of power/authority and not only a sin against G-d. He could stop a conversion as easily as advancing it. Or retroactively annul it as he's done. He was supposed to be helping and instead was taped using.

Moreover, he was in charge of EJF and EJF was trying to play a role in all conversions. He was aiming to have similar power over every convert.

He was only taped here. But was this the only time it happened? I am a 'bit' sceptical.

The suffering of his family is a valid, terrible issue. As it was a valid issue when a rabbi was branded a heritic providing halachic sources permitting belief in a world over 6,000 years old. And when a pregnant woman's conversion was annulled for wearing pants. Her family (and frumkeit) was then over. And when other converts found their conversions annulled because they did not use EJF rabbis ... all these people had families. All have feelings.

69

 Dec 24, 2009 at 12:41 PM goldy rosenberg Says:

for those who don't put their names and say they know me, yes this is me. and I answer to G-d, not to relatives, though, Baruch Hashem I have been blessed with a wonderful family in which my father taught us that we must always measure anything against Torah. All I said was that there is something wrong about the publication of this and the trashing of this family. A victim is someone who cannot walk away. This woman could have converted via Chabad -- she worked for them. She did not need EJF to convert. And the point of the post is that everyone posting obviously did not ask Da'as Torah before doing so. Because according to Torah guidelines, if Rabbi Tropper did sin, it is not for you and me to decide and discuss. Again, I quote Dovid HaMelech that said "Chatasee LaHashem" -- he had no need to discuss the matter with the rest of Klal Yisroel

70

 Dec 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM Yossi Says:

Al Tudin chaveirchu AT shtagia limkoymoi

71

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:34 PM OMG Says:

Tropper statement is self serving and without a shred of remorse the only remorse Tropper exhibits that his misdeeds were exposed and he lost prestige that is not the remorse we are looking for.

72

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:35 PM Moish Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

Please leave Dovid Hamelech out of this, he said "leche levad chatasi" because only G-d alone knows the nature of his "sin", we shouldn't take what's written at face value, "Whoever says David sinned is mistaken"

73

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:

The gemara states: if you saw a talmud chochom commiting a sin during the night, don't accuse him during the day since he must've repented since he commited the sin. This should be enough.

74

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
SimchaB Says:

Reply to #33:You're the one one who sounds bitter and pathetic. How many "Misnagdim" did something like this? (Your use of the term "misnaged" shows your chabad orientation, they are the only ones who still use this term instead of "Litvish") Get over it, it's not Vilna of 200 odd years ago!

but when its a chabad story i love to see how EVERYONE jumps on that you. call it for what it is

75

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
goldy rosenberg Says:

for those who don't put their names and say they know me, yes this is me. and I answer to G-d, not to relatives, though, Baruch Hashem I have been blessed with a wonderful family in which my father taught us that we must always measure anything against Torah. All I said was that there is something wrong about the publication of this and the trashing of this family. A victim is someone who cannot walk away. This woman could have converted via Chabad -- she worked for them. She did not need EJF to convert. And the point of the post is that everyone posting obviously did not ask Da'as Torah before doing so. Because according to Torah guidelines, if Rabbi Tropper did sin, it is not for you and me to decide and discuss. Again, I quote Dovid HaMelech that said "Chatasee LaHashem" -- he had no need to discuss the matter with the rest of Klal Yisroel

"All I said was that there is something wrong about the publication of this and the trashing of this family."

I never trashed Mr. Tropper's family. I have nothing but pity for them, but it is he who has brought this shame upon them, not me or writers like me.

"And the point of the post is that everyone posting obviously did not ask Da'as Torah before doing so."

Who did you consult before posting here?

76

 Dec 24, 2009 at 01:56 PM Eli B. Says:

to #51
First of all I'd like to commend you on using your real name, that takes guts. I dont' know tropper and did not have an opinion about him before this started. I listened to the tapes and here's the impression that I have; If I were to judge soley on his demeanor and tone of voice, he's a classic 'artscroll' jew, polite, considerate,understanding. He asks her opinion, is sensitive to her feelings.
At the same time, the man has no soul. none.
I don't mean neshomo, i mean soul. character, integrity. and tha'st what you don't get, based on your defense.
That's why he doesn't and wont apologize. It's not an infraction he committed, it's the undoing of what people are being 'mekareved' for;go to Yeshiva for 20 years.
If you take this situation combined with spinka, douek, etc. They were taught, I'm sure, in their youth not to speak loshon horo ( an expression that should be banned from all schools) mekabel..besver ponim yofos ( which tropper did very well); but ..are you ready?! That if you give your word you have to keep it; integrity and character as a fundememtal of what it means to be a jew, not there. We all make mistakes, granted. His mistake is that he's living a lie.

77

 Dec 24, 2009 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
goldy rosenberg Says:

for those who don't put their names and say they know me, yes this is me. and I answer to G-d, not to relatives, though, Baruch Hashem I have been blessed with a wonderful family in which my father taught us that we must always measure anything against Torah. All I said was that there is something wrong about the publication of this and the trashing of this family. A victim is someone who cannot walk away. This woman could have converted via Chabad -- she worked for them. She did not need EJF to convert. And the point of the post is that everyone posting obviously did not ask Da'as Torah before doing so. Because according to Torah guidelines, if Rabbi Tropper did sin, it is not for you and me to decide and discuss. Again, I quote Dovid HaMelech that said "Chatasee LaHashem" -- he had no need to discuss the matter with the rest of Klal Yisroel

The woman in question worked for "Tropper" get your facts straight. Check out her webpage!

78

 Dec 24, 2009 at 02:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
Hamaor Shel Torah Machziro Lmutav Says:

I know this will not be popular on this forum but I will say it anyways. I think that despite all that has transpired we need to allow time to heal and bottom line is he is a groise talmid chochom, the fact is that he got his smicha from HaRav Shach z"l and therefore I believe that despite all that has happened all the Torah that he learned in the beis midrash and that he was marbitz borabim which you cannot take away from him certainly will not go to waste ch"v but "HaMaor Shebah Machziro L'mutav". I'd like anyone to challenge me on this as this is what our great chazal tell us about the power of Torah notwithstanding any aveira one might commit.

The point is this, when you hide behind "good deeds" in order to sneak around and do aveiros, so no one will believe that you are evil, such as the case with child molesters, you are even more evil because you are not only manipulating your own personal victims, you are manipulating and violating the entire K'lal!

79

 Dec 24, 2009 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

Nebach you dont even realize how fakrumpt your thinking is. Its a dover poshut that being matir neuif you will fall by neuif midah kneged midah

80

 Dec 24, 2009 at 03:02 PM esther Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

goldileh,obviosly your friendship with this family is clouding your judgement.why bring up stories of goyishe politicians to some how justify what this "rabbi" did? secondly the sin IS against you and me as this guy represents frum yidden in the average person's mind. you don't understand how these terrible chilul Hashems diminish us all. thirdly,tropper broke some boundries???!!! oy ribono shel olam,have our standards and expectations of our gedolim really fallen so low?

81

 Dec 24, 2009 at 04:11 PM sad yid Says:

Like it has been said with all the cases of massive chillul hashem how can we expect for Moshiach to want to come and get us out of golus!

82

 Dec 24, 2009 at 04:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
chochom Says:

This is not a denial. Allegations of behaviour this outrageous requires a better response. I'm saddened by the conclusion this leads me to.

I worked for EJF and know some of the Dayanim personally this is easily verifiable as needed. I can tell you that people knew that Leib had a problematic history and they covered for him for over twenty years. This was told to me by one of the Dayanim that worked with Tropper intensively. Leib also had a shaychus with Shlomo Carlebach and this did not serve as a positive example. While Shlomo would have killed himself before pimping a woman to his chaverim he was not an embodiment of perishut. Leib, while he never sat on a Bet Din did pull the strings of who sat on the Batie Din because he controlled the funds and the jobs. We will never know if there were women whom he abused that made it through. Firstly, because they will be terrified of coming forward for fear of having their conversion invalidated and secondly because the Batie Din will not want to look like idiots. While none of the women I worked with were abused bu him sexually- they were abused by him emotionally in the sense that he showed utter disregard and insensitivity for them as people in various ways. While I have never seen a greater chilul hashem in my lifetime I hope that it serves as a wake up call.

83

 Dec 24, 2009 at 04:03 PM Professor Says:

Reply to #13  
The Beadle Says:

Are you sober?

Ehrlich????? Unfortunately people forgot what that means. I heard someone say daven ehrlich- taking bein adam lichavero out of the ehrlich equation. This man is a rasha, so I will not assume he did teshuva. In fact his statement shows he doesn't even have charata.
Additionally, why does he need introspection if his actions only "appear" to be a problem? Furthermore, his stepping down didn't cause the problem for EJF. His actions that led to his stepping down, was the problem.

84

 Dec 24, 2009 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

The way 2008 was a distater for economics , 2009 will go down as a year of the immodest. So many "frum" people being accused of crimes of harrasement, drugs, cheating on their spouses and many other things that can't be written about here.

Nebach nebach nebach on all of us.

This is what happenes when we live in a chumrah society.

Many years ago when things were a bit more normal and we did not have all these phony restrictions of not being able to go to concerts, and the wigs we wore, nobody cared about, and the so called bugs in water years, there weren't half of these problems.

Now we have kids at risk and even the Aguda wants to change the name of "at risk". Just another way of covering up an issue. We have people cheating on spouses all over the place, people stealing in business and so many other ills.

In no way is anyone condeming anyone on this story. This is just an accusation and we don't know the truth but like the famous saying goes-they don't say those things about us and you!

We need real leaders that have the guts to get up at the podium and say things that have to be said. When this happens then Moshiach will come.

85

 Dec 24, 2009 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

Goldy Rosenberg is missing the whole picture here and just zeroing in on the sin at the very center of it all. Don't be so myopic, Goldy!

86

 Dec 24, 2009 at 03:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
goldy rosenberg Says:

for those who don't put their names and say they know me, yes this is me. and I answer to G-d, not to relatives, though, Baruch Hashem I have been blessed with a wonderful family in which my father taught us that we must always measure anything against Torah. All I said was that there is something wrong about the publication of this and the trashing of this family. A victim is someone who cannot walk away. This woman could have converted via Chabad -- she worked for them. She did not need EJF to convert. And the point of the post is that everyone posting obviously did not ask Da'as Torah before doing so. Because according to Torah guidelines, if Rabbi Tropper did sin, it is not for you and me to decide and discuss. Again, I quote Dovid HaMelech that said "Chatasee LaHashem" -- he had no need to discuss the matter with the rest of Klal Yisroel

Goldy asserts: >Baruch Hashem I have been blessed with a wonderful family in which my father taught us that we must always measure anything against Torah. All I said was that there is something wrong about the publication of this and the trashing of this family.<

Last time I looked, the Torah itself details even the sins of its heroes (e.g. Noach, the Shvatim, the Meraglim, Dovid, Shlomo, etc.) so that we learn right from wrong. And it certainly tells us about lowlife like Er, Onan, Dovid's son who raped his half-sister, etc.

87

 Dec 24, 2009 at 04:19 PM professor Says:

Reply to #70  
Yossi Says:

Al Tudin chaveirchu AT shtagia limkoymoi

There is a very basic issue that is being ignored. The underlying problem is that much of the Jewish world today places respect in men due to their ability to learn. It is a very poor yardstick. The people that excel in learning are almost always simply intelligent and not more ethical. Some people learn all day, and have no character improvement from it- especially if they despise mussar. Cahnging one midda can take a lifetime. Ehrlichkeit and lamdus don't always go hand in hand.

88

 Dec 24, 2009 at 04:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #87  
professor Says:

There is a very basic issue that is being ignored. The underlying problem is that much of the Jewish world today places respect in men due to their ability to learn. It is a very poor yardstick. The people that excel in learning are almost always simply intelligent and not more ethical. Some people learn all day, and have no character improvement from it- especially if they despise mussar. Cahnging one midda can take a lifetime. Ehrlichkeit and lamdus don't always go hand in hand.

>Ehrlichkeit and lamdus don't always go hand in hand.< I hate to say it, but in my 5 decades of experience, I seem to see an inverse relationship between the two.

89

 Dec 24, 2009 at 04:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
goldy rosenberg Says:

for those who don't put their names and say they know me, yes this is me. and I answer to G-d, not to relatives, though, Baruch Hashem I have been blessed with a wonderful family in which my father taught us that we must always measure anything against Torah. All I said was that there is something wrong about the publication of this and the trashing of this family. A victim is someone who cannot walk away. This woman could have converted via Chabad -- she worked for them. She did not need EJF to convert. And the point of the post is that everyone posting obviously did not ask Da'as Torah before doing so. Because according to Torah guidelines, if Rabbi Tropper did sin, it is not for you and me to decide and discuss. Again, I quote Dovid HaMelech that said "Chatasee LaHashem" -- he had no need to discuss the matter with the rest of Klal Yisroel

As far as anyone knows there is no record of her ever working for any Chabad institution. She did work for EJF, though
Goldy -if you knew anything at all you would know that Chabad simply does not do conversions
Your defense of a Chilul Hashem is a terrible Chilul Hashem

90

 Dec 24, 2009 at 05:36 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

Goldy Rosenberg; I don’t know you but it seems that you are cringing when it comes to the pain inflected on Tropper family; if that is the only issue at hand I will agree with you that it must be painful to family members who were not involved with this type of behavior, however when you try to minimize Tropper’s indiscretion you fail to realize that as a Rabbi and a leader of an organization he must be held to a higher standard more then you or me, the same concept is used in the political sphere, leadership comes with an implicit understanding that they will lead by example, which in this case Tropper failed miserably, and secondly Topper used his position of authority to engage in conversation or actual acts to gratify his personal shortcomings, that by itself is immoral I would rather see a Rabbi or Priest pay for it, as Spitzer did, then taking advantage of their flock or an impressionable woman who is seeking to convert. And finally I agree with your point that this episode is not as bad a child molestation case, but pedophilia is less repulsive then necrophilia, or bestiality but that doesn’t make pedophilia ok.
P.S. I challenge you to explain yourself while many bloggers wrote logical and analytical answers to your suppositions.

91

 Dec 24, 2009 at 05:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #84  
Anonymous Says:

The way 2008 was a distater for economics , 2009 will go down as a year of the immodest. So many "frum" people being accused of crimes of harrasement, drugs, cheating on their spouses and many other things that can't be written about here.

Nebach nebach nebach on all of us.

This is what happenes when we live in a chumrah society.

Many years ago when things were a bit more normal and we did not have all these phony restrictions of not being able to go to concerts, and the wigs we wore, nobody cared about, and the so called bugs in water years, there weren't half of these problems.

Now we have kids at risk and even the Aguda wants to change the name of "at risk". Just another way of covering up an issue. We have people cheating on spouses all over the place, people stealing in business and so many other ills.

In no way is anyone condeming anyone on this story. This is just an accusation and we don't know the truth but like the famous saying goes-they don't say those things about us and you!

We need real leaders that have the guts to get up at the podium and say things that have to be said. When this happens then Moshiach will come.

very well said. we need to reevaluate our value system.

92

 Dec 24, 2009 at 06:14 PM yerachmiel Lopin Says:

You don't use a lawyer to say vidui. HKB'H is the final judge of sincerity, but fakery many of us can recognize from a mile away. On top of his other sins he has added on mocking the rules of tshuvah. I have written elewhere that he will now start a new organization called Eternal Jewish Tshuvah (EJT).

Now I would give him some credit if he issued this sort of a statement:

I regret my misconduct that broke many of our most significant laws including those pertaining to lewd conduct, extorting favors, oppressing converts, misusing people in the process of converting, in this and many other instances. I admit I regularly behaved hypocritically and misused my control of funds to sway others to support me. Accordingly I am stepping down from all positions which involve my having control of funds and influence over those seeking to enter Judaism or strengthen their attachment to Judaism.

In the coming days I will initiate a process of repentance by fully confessing all my misdeeds to all affected individuals and groups, including the Jewish public. I will make every effort to repair the damage though I realize that some of the damage I caused will never be repairable.

93

 Dec 24, 2009 at 06:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

what a disgrace!! I hope they look for the "Satmar" and all others involved and remove them from their positions as well.

Do you have anything in particular against Satmar? From my understanding "Rabbi Tropper" is far from being a chasid. Are you a true Misnaged or do you hate all Chasidim?

94

 Dec 24, 2009 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:

welll we must understand he had a weak momnet and he fell true this mean felles now worse then a squril i thin its enogh lets leave him and his family alone to deal with this done put more shame on him and his family we all have skeltons hidding and lots of theese so called cant understand writters you dont want anybody to check you and know what you are doing 24 7 thats does not say it was right or moral no way but he had his punishmnet for him i belive wishes that he can die and get over with this lets stop

95

 Dec 24, 2009 at 06:27 PM Black Hatter Says:

There can be no defense for Tropper. All of his "learning" and "kiruv" is all suspect. We must suspect that every woman that he came in contact with was propositioned and/or molested. His actions with his own wife and the "other" woman make trusting him a loud joke. I am sorry to say, even you, Mrs. Rosenberg, are somewhat suspect because of your irrational and baseless defense of him and his "family." The word family would include his wife, and we all know that is a joke too. Why are you defending him? Why are you defending his wife?
What we must learn is that our Torah leaders are Tzaddikim. They must conduct themselves as Tzaddikim to maintain our trust and admiration. When they fail, they fail all of us. Tropper chose to do his misdeeds. He was forced. He abdicated any semblence of being a Torah leader. He can never again be trusted.
Dovid Hamelech admitted his misdeeds instantly and publicly. But Dovid's misdeed was a personal one. He did not impose the authority of his position on a woman who was seeking to be converted.
Tropper did not admit his misdeed nor did he indicate any repentence.

96

 Dec 24, 2009 at 06:28 PM Anonymous Says:

אין אדם חוטא אלא אם כן נכנס בו רוח שטות

97

 Dec 24, 2009 at 07:52 PM Al de'ateft atfuch Ulevasoif metayfuch yetufun. Says:

Because you drown, someone you were drowned & in the end those who drowned you will be drowned.
The 2 mighty guys in the Slifkin saga, have both gone down in a much worse manner than he did.Not getting involved in who was right or wrong,I personally don't think Slifkin was bad intentioned, nor did he not have a mekor from Torah sages over many generations for his writtings. However in our mesorah, these shitos were not disgused for varios reasons, he revealed them, probably for the science Yidden who are just about clinging to Yiddishkeit, he had haskomos & not all haskomos were removed.
He was viled, as one can find on his website.It is not long since then that the kanoim were given their own nisyones & were possibly min hashamayin not given bechira & fell in, & were viled in public. To be a Kanoey one must be real sincere. Which of us can promise he has never had a nisayon, & always been oimed 100%? No one who blogs guaranteed, that includes me.
We too are not pure & Kuloi Ladhem, so we must be careful, not to drown these people,because we don't want to be drowned, or exposed. I am sure Slifkin is flashing through the 2 Leibs minds now. i hope he will forgive them now.

98

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

You are a fool. Go back to your kitchen work, diaper your children. Such an ignorant lady deserves a husband like the so called RABBI. Your KIDUSHAT MISHPOCHA is questionable. He was caught with his pants down and you are defending him? A despicable phone conversation with a GOYISH woman thinking to convert to Judaism is nor enough proof for you. Where is smoke there is fire, and in TROPPERs paints there is plenty FIRE and lots of SMOKE. Call the fire department.

99

 Dec 24, 2009 at 08:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #94  
Anonymous Says:

welll we must understand he had a weak momnet and he fell true this mean felles now worse then a squril i thin its enogh lets leave him and his family alone to deal with this done put more shame on him and his family we all have skeltons hidding and lots of theese so called cant understand writters you dont want anybody to check you and know what you are doing 24 7 thats does not say it was right or moral no way but he had his punishmnet for him i belive wishes that he can die and get over with this lets stop

That's foolish! This wasn't the actions of someone "falling in a weak moment" - to talk the way he was talking shows of an ongoing pattern of involvement in matters that are despicable and crass! He wasn't caught in a 'crime of passion' which one can fall victim to the Yetzer Huru at any age or at any time. He proves himself to be a crass individual with no respect for the laws of Torah and modesty at all. I knew him years ago when he first began as rosh yeshiva of kol yaakov. My friends and I were repelled by his egotistic demeanor of putting down people that didn't fit in his world view. I see now, 25 years later, how astute we were back then!

100

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:05 PM Anonymous Says:

This is definitely a sad day. At the moment I don't know what else to say...I take my own sense of personal introspection out of it and wonder what I can do better myself.

101

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #98  
Anonymous Says:

You are a fool. Go back to your kitchen work, diaper your children. Such an ignorant lady deserves a husband like the so called RABBI. Your KIDUSHAT MISHPOCHA is questionable. He was caught with his pants down and you are defending him? A despicable phone conversation with a GOYISH woman thinking to convert to Judaism is nor enough proof for you. Where is smoke there is fire, and in TROPPERs paints there is plenty FIRE and lots of SMOKE. Call the fire department.

Be careful do you know who she is? Be sensetive maybe she doesn't have children yet?
A husband do you know who her husband is/if she has one?
If she does have a husband, did he write something you don't like?
You & I are anon. she put her name up. You may agree to disagree, but be sensetive please.
I understand this is a blog , & hope no one takes things personally.
Mrs. 51 please ask VIN to remove your name, from where ever possible, you wrote in haste out of feelings,[& a good heart] and may regret it. After all blogs are anonymous, and you too should have remained anonymous.
Shuvu Bonim Shovovim, may Hakb'H have mercy on us, & may we all do Tshuva shleima, and all get yeshuois & nechomos, see Yiddishe nachas, and be merited to go Neged malkienu bimharo byameinu.Amen

102

 Dec 24, 2009 at 09:24 PM Snag Says:

" And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused"

It's not the bloggers that have caused the pain. Don't blame the messengers.

Yes, no-one is immune to temptations, but we expect, perhaps naively, people who assume positions of responsibility to maintain a high level of decency in public and in private. those who don't cause terrible damage.

103

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

It's not the right time to make this comment as it can cause even more loshon horah. I think of Erliche Yidden in a very different manner than you apparently. This "one matter" caused many different Issurim (ie. lying, possibly taking Tzedakah money, being untzinius and others as you can understand yourself). I know you want to Dan L'caf Zechus which is nice but please do so silently. Now is just not the time to try and convince people this is a Gadol Biyisroel who "sinned in one area alone" and is an "Erliche Yid". Sorry, that is an insult to an Emise Erliche Yid. Hopefully he will do Teshuva to Hashem, his family, friends and all of Klal Yisroel who suffer as a result and Hashem, and Hashem alone will judge.

104

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:07 PM jimmy37 Says:

If any of these allegations are remotely true, this "rabbi" should be put away. We are not talking temptation here. This is abuse, harassment, rape. This is megalomaniac behavior.

105

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:32 PM Michael E. Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

You state that "there was no victim". I disagree. By my behavior, dress, and demeanor I identify myself as a mitzvah-observing Jew. Because of this, I go out of the way to act in a way that would bring respect and admiration for my people and my faith. To the rest of the world (both Jewish and non-Jewish) this identification was once considered to be the mark of someone having certain ethical and moral standards. Today, because of the actions of a few scoundrels and fools, this is no longer true. When I heard that this scandal broke in the NY Post and might appear in the Times I was literally embarrassed to go out in the public. Are you proud of this man, this unspeakable hypocrite, this fool in the guise of a Rabbi whom you seem to know well because "he did not rape anyone"? Is this the new standard of behavior of a Rosh Yeshiva? This "holy" man felt it was his duty to malign and destroy a young, courageous, and sincere young Talmid Chochom because he wrote some lines in a book with which he didn't agree. This man was concerned with the tznius of a woman wearing pants while he was cheating on his (victimless?) family. We are all victims of this horrible man's chilul Hashem.

106

 Dec 24, 2009 at 10:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #101  
Anonymous Says:

Be careful do you know who she is? Be sensetive maybe she doesn't have children yet?
A husband do you know who her husband is/if she has one?
If she does have a husband, did he write something you don't like?
You & I are anon. she put her name up. You may agree to disagree, but be sensetive please.
I understand this is a blog , & hope no one takes things personally.
Mrs. 51 please ask VIN to remove your name, from where ever possible, you wrote in haste out of feelings,[& a good heart] and may regret it. After all blogs are anonymous, and you too should have remained anonymous.
Shuvu Bonim Shovovim, may Hakb'H have mercy on us, & may we all do Tshuva shleima, and all get yeshuois & nechomos, see Yiddishe nachas, and be merited to go Neged malkienu bimharo byameinu.Amen

Sensitive to who? She is the one that spread fusses on her face. Cleaning it will not diminish the smell

107

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:02 PM Chochom Says:

i'd like to address two halachik issues:
1. Must one assume he did teshuva as the gemara says with regar to a talmid chochom who committed and avera at night...?
2. Is it muttar to denigrate him for what he did as far as hichos lashon hara go?
it seems to me:
1. One must NOT assume he did teshuva for three reasons. a) His crime included a bein adam lechavero wrongdoing - taking advantage of a vulnerable women and violating her. We see in the rishonim that if the avera a talmid chochom did is bein adam lechavero one should NOT assume he did teshuva until/unless it becomes known that he made reperations. b) His press release indicates that he did not do teshuva by the morning, so he fofeits the assumption of teshuva. On the contrary, his indication of not having done teshuva may mean that he does not meet the gemora's criteria for being a talmid chochom. c) The gemara is talking about a one-time violation, not a repeated offense (as is apparent in our case). This leads to the answer to question number two: (to be continued in subsequent posting)

108

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
meforsom shel sheker Says:

My dear friends; who from amongst can honestLy say that he never sinned in the earea of kedusha who

B"H as far back as I can think I have not done any inappropriate things of such a nature and I hope most others have not.
What are you saying? I know many people who B"H have not, thankfully!

109

 Dec 24, 2009 at 11:11 PM chochom (#2) Says:

2. The Chofetz Chaim paskens that a repeat offender of an avera (an avera that is of common knowledge that it is wrong) is no longer part of "amisecha" and it is not prohibited to say lashon hara about him. In fact it is proper "leganos po'aley ovel" to denigrate wrongdoers. In addition even if a person is only a one-time offender theonly reason one may not say lashon hara about his because he may have done teshuva. However, if the person indicates that he did not do teshuva (as in this case - my previous posting) this would not apply.

110

 Dec 25, 2009 at 08:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

I think this is a personality disorder - he shows no remorse - this is sickening and frightening. Why are we still covering things up in the Yeshivish world?

111

 Dec 25, 2009 at 08:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Tropper, shlita, has shownn a great deal of regret over his indiscretions and will do tshuvah. Now its time to move on and leave him and his family to heal. Nothing is to be gained by focusing more attention on this ehrleche yid and talmid chacham who strayed from the derech on this one matter.

This is not "ehrleche" and not a talmid chacham - this is a disgrace!

112

 Dec 25, 2009 at 12:10 AM Anonymous Says:

"Rebbetzen Goldy" (as Tropper called her despite that she was single never married) has been a Tropper chassid for over a decade. She knows that by putting her name out there, she is opening herself up, but willing to risk being dragged through the mud & does it anyway.

Is she nogeiah bdavar and acting like a hostage who identifies with ones kidnapper, possibly convinced by Tropper (just as his wife probably was) that there was nothing wrong al pi halacha? Is she trying to rationalize her own relationship to Tropper and unable to grasp he had other women? Is this her declaration of dieing loyalty to him? Maybe she is just trying to convince herself, even more than the public, that Tropper didn't betray her & it was ONLY "one untzniusdik conversation." Sorry Rebbetzen Goldy, don't put your head in the sand. One doesn't have a ring of friends to pimp a woman out to, just from "one untzniusdik conversation."

Goldy, you ask the public to have rachmanus on Tropper's family? What about the lives of the geirim, specifically that of a pregnant woman? Rachmonus on the family would be to get them all to a psychiatrist ASAP so they can heal from his psychological abuse and manipulation

113

 Dec 25, 2009 at 02:21 AM me Says:

Reply to #39  
meforsom shel sheker Says:

My dear friends; who from amongst can honestLy say that he never sinned in the earea of kedusha who

Great line. Let me give you the original:
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Lemme see, where do I know that line from? Oh yeah, it's in the new testament.

Everybody does it, is not an excuse, specifically not for a rov or a rosh yeshiva that holds (formally held) the respect of the community. If you hold yourself above the community, live up to it. If you can't, step down and hope you don't get caught, but not both. I would like to add that among the worst offenders are married men that molest children or have affairs. It's a terrible thing if a bochur molests a younger child. but you can say he was curious, he has problems, he has a yaitzer hora, etc. But a guy's that married, has pito bisolo, and can't hold out a few days is a serious pervert, as well as being an ingrate to the RSO and his own wife as well.

114

 Dec 25, 2009 at 09:32 AM Rabbi Goldstein Says:

BS'D
Poor house of Israel! One after another we are presented with these scandals.
We as jews must act jewishly in these situations. : We live in a hipocritical society that venerates inmorality day in and day out and uses our human limitations and lust to get cought with it be it with the internet or other distractions.
I.m not interested in Rabbi Troppers guilt as much as i'm interested in fighting back these society of hipocrites that put a face of rigthiouness as soon as someone in cought. My experience as a Rabbi had told me that the ones that we most be most careful is the vinditictive in a rosh to judgement. How would they think if it was a relative? And what about themeselves are they really such a rightious people free form the evil temptetions so they can judge others?
My faith in judaism is not affected by the acts of others much the same that the crime of an american citizen should not be an evidence of a faulty constitution.
As a jew I'm concerned of course of our good name as a holy nation, but more than anything at a time like this I realise how much we need to get close to Hashem
and fight back againts these hipocritical society.

115

 Dec 25, 2009 at 10:13 AM jj Says:

is this the same rabbi that revoked a womans conversion because he saw of photo of her wearing pants? hahaha.

116

 Dec 25, 2009 at 11:05 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #112  
Anonymous Says:

"Rebbetzen Goldy" (as Tropper called her despite that she was single never married) has been a Tropper chassid for over a decade. She knows that by putting her name out there, she is opening herself up, but willing to risk being dragged through the mud & does it anyway.

Is she nogeiah bdavar and acting like a hostage who identifies with ones kidnapper, possibly convinced by Tropper (just as his wife probably was) that there was nothing wrong al pi halacha? Is she trying to rationalize her own relationship to Tropper and unable to grasp he had other women? Is this her declaration of dieing loyalty to him? Maybe she is just trying to convince herself, even more than the public, that Tropper didn't betray her & it was ONLY "one untzniusdik conversation." Sorry Rebbetzen Goldy, don't put your head in the sand. One doesn't have a ring of friends to pimp a woman out to, just from "one untzniusdik conversation."

Goldy, you ask the public to have rachmanus on Tropper's family? What about the lives of the geirim, specifically that of a pregnant woman? Rachmonus on the family would be to get them all to a psychiatrist ASAP so they can heal from his psychological abuse and manipulation

Your eviscerating of this woman was uncalled for; you need to rethink your method of debate, as a human being it is not unbecoming in a debate to use and to discuss the opponent personal life, she is not part of the issue herein, although I totally disagree with this woman’s arguments, her personal life story has nothing to do with the merits of her argument, as much a Tropper needs to admit to his faults and give up forever a leadership role you need to apologize for your insensitivity to this woman.

117

 Dec 25, 2009 at 11:55 AM Anonymous Says:

OMG is right. You owe her an apology. It was totally uncalled for. I feel sorry for this woman. She is a victim and deserves our help.


118

 Dec 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #114  
Rabbi Goldstein Says:

BS'D
Poor house of Israel! One after another we are presented with these scandals.
We as jews must act jewishly in these situations. : We live in a hipocritical society that venerates inmorality day in and day out and uses our human limitations and lust to get cought with it be it with the internet or other distractions.
I.m not interested in Rabbi Troppers guilt as much as i'm interested in fighting back these society of hipocrites that put a face of rigthiouness as soon as someone in cought. My experience as a Rabbi had told me that the ones that we most be most careful is the vinditictive in a rosh to judgement. How would they think if it was a relative? And what about themeselves are they really such a rightious people free form the evil temptetions so they can judge others?
My faith in judaism is not affected by the acts of others much the same that the crime of an american citizen should not be an evidence of a faulty constitution.
As a jew I'm concerned of course of our good name as a holy nation, but more than anything at a time like this I realise how much we need to get close to Hashem
and fight back againts these hipocritical society.

Rabbi Goldstein a few point, first of all Tropper was not caught he was exposed, there is difference if you are caught it would imply that it could be a signaler occurrence but he was exposed and the tapes points to multiple events, and I will agree that in daily life each person has from time to time the opportunity and sometimes the desire to stray, and even a person of leadership could easily stray from the right path but here is where we part, instead of trying to sound like a prophet and call out the community call out the sinner, if the sinner is a layperson and it was Between consenting adults then I would agree that it is none of our business, let them lose sleep on the consequences of their deeds, but Tropper was in a leadership position and from what I read, when it came to came to questions of converts he used his influence in a way that he could make a healthy person sick to his stomach, finally the vast majority of posters, and with good reason, are only demanding that Tropper should admit to his shortcomings and step down from any leadership position, and you are willing to call out everyone else but the culprit, it’s our collective responsibility to stand up to any person who wrap himself or herself in the leadership mantel to live by example, we are the ones who pay their wages our money is your tax free stipend. At least Jim Baker had the decency to stand up in front of his congregation and on TV, and say to the whole would “I sinned” on the other hand your post goes to show that a Rabbi’s title doesn’t necessarily mean that you are a leader no it means that you mastered a certain segment of the Torah, but by no means you understand what a leader needs to do and say while cloaking himself with the Torah.

119

 Dec 25, 2009 at 12:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #50  
Anonymous Says:

Seems to be that there are "certain" people involved in this incident that are being very well shielded by others, with keeping things on the low-down. The entire story has not yet broken, as there are very big players involved in this story.

dont protect them...expose them here and now!

120

 Dec 25, 2009 at 01:02 PM דניאל בן אברחם Says:

Reply to #62  
Hamaor Shel Torah Machziro Lmutav Says:

I know this will not be popular on this forum but I will say it anyways. I think that despite all that has transpired we need to allow time to heal and bottom line is he is a groise talmid chochom, the fact is that he got his smicha from HaRav Shach z"l and therefore I believe that despite all that has happened all the Torah that he learned in the beis midrash and that he was marbitz borabim which you cannot take away from him certainly will not go to waste ch"v but "HaMaor Shebah Machziro L'mutav". I'd like anyone to challenge me on this as this is what our great chazal tell us about the power of Torah notwithstanding any aveira one might commit.

"I'd like anyone to challenge me on this as this is what our great chazal tell us about the power of Torah notwithstanding any aveira one might commit."

In your view, how does his Torah knowledge square with his oppression of אמתדיגע גרי צדק?

121

 Dec 25, 2009 at 01:14 PM דניאל בן אברחם Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

" If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me"

Goldy, his sin is against me. This מנוול convinced Rabbi Amar that I, a RCA convert was not a Jew. I'm waiting for him to show up at my door to apologize.

122

 Dec 25, 2009 at 01:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #107  
Chochom Says:

i'd like to address two halachik issues:
1. Must one assume he did teshuva as the gemara says with regar to a talmid chochom who committed and avera at night...?
2. Is it muttar to denigrate him for what he did as far as hichos lashon hara go?
it seems to me:
1. One must NOT assume he did teshuva for three reasons. a) His crime included a bein adam lechavero wrongdoing - taking advantage of a vulnerable women and violating her. We see in the rishonim that if the avera a talmid chochom did is bein adam lechavero one should NOT assume he did teshuva until/unless it becomes known that he made reperations. b) His press release indicates that he did not do teshuva by the morning, so he fofeits the assumption of teshuva. On the contrary, his indication of not having done teshuva may mean that he does not meet the gemora's criteria for being a talmid chochom. c) The gemara is talking about a one-time violation, not a repeated offense (as is apparent in our case). This leads to the answer to question number two: (to be continued in subsequent posting)

"1. Must one assume he did teshuva as the gemara says with regar to a talmid chochom who committed and avera at night...?"

Please, the Talmud also says that if I burn a fire in one place for seven years a bird will fly out of it.

123

 Dec 25, 2009 at 01:51 PM דניאל בן אברחם Says:

Reply to #111  
Anonymous Says:

This is not "ehrleche" and not a talmid chacham - this is a disgrace!

I heard directly from Rav Shmuel Brazil that if your if your learning does not lead to למעשה, "your learning is garbage." Yes, that is a direct quote. It does not matter that this מנוול has quadruple סמיכה. I want to see a public תשובה, a personal apology for what he put me through and an avoidance of any position of communal leadership for 10 years.

124

 Dec 25, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Tropper is a disgrace to the community, to Judaism, to his family, to humanity. He has no business being in any position of leadership, certainly not conversions!!
And certainly Not a Rosh Yeshiva!!! please, do us all a favor and resign and go somewhere far away and try and live out the rest of your years in obscurity and obsolescence, where you belong!! Thank you

125

 Dec 26, 2009 at 08:14 PM zimri kozbi Says:

Trotter is a filthy perverted deviant as is his wife. #8 who are you protecting and how dare you insult the name of rabbanus buy calling trotter shlitah and rav. He's no rov or talmud chochom but a seedy lying perverted deviant adultery and must have no more involvment with yeshivois communal affairs or bochurim or position. He got caught with his pants down and g-d knows what else he has been up to. Get rid of this az ponim scum bag miserable excuse for a jew

126

 Dec 28, 2009 at 03:28 AM yuyu Says:

Reply to #51  
goldy rosenberg Says:

I’m weighing in. Knowing that I will open myself as target. But so be it. Emes M’eretz Tizmach, there is a concept of Ameetus that has to be addressed in the Rabbi Tropper alleged affair. A caveat – I know the Tropper family very, very well. Have referred Talmidim to his Yeshiva. And am cringing at the pain all of the bloggers have caused, not just to the family, but also to the Talmidim worldwide.

Okay, so you want to know, how can I defend wrong actions. The first thing I want to explain is that we live in a time of mixed-up morality. Here in the State of New York we booted out a governor who had paid someone to have a relationship. In his stead, we placed a man who had, Chinam, for free, cheated on his wife with another married person. And that, we have decided, was more moral – for Mr. Paterson to have had “troubles in his marriage” allowed him to do something we call Giluy Arayos, whereas the previous guy, gasp, paid. So morality is really spun based on secular societies’ warped Sodom-like views.

Now to the matter at hand. We have a rabbi who did an indiscretion. He was caught on tape having a very untzniyusdike conversation. As Dovid would have said “Chatasi LaHashem”. If he did this sin, his sin is against G-d, not against you and me. Therefore, we should not be here in the midst of the fray. In fact, most of what is being said is added on salacious lies. There is nothing shocking about what happened. We know that no person is immune to sin. That is why we have something called Gedarim, boundaries. So, yes, Rabbi Tropper broke some boundaries. He did not molest a child. He did not rape anyone. There was no “victim”.

Now, we know he did something untzinyusdik. But did he do something worse than the phone conversations? Ah, you all want to know, don’t you? Well, there is a 50-50 chance. Let us play both sides of the scenario. Let us say he did. Does that make his life fodder for discussion, based on Torah law? Nope. It would be Lashon Hara, if we expose his sin, as he is not a willful sinner who has been warned not to continue and keeps doing it. Now, let us play the other possibility - -what if Rabbi Tropper did not do anything other than have that perverted phone conversation. Then what is going on is retzicha and motzei shem rah. Either side of the coin, if he did or didn’t do the sin, we are not licensed to dissect him, call him names and trash him and his family. We are the children of Shem, blessed with the mitzvah of Tallis because our ancestor when he saw his father’s indiscretion, made sure to cover it. I am not a fan, as anyone who knows me can attest to, who believes in the cover-up of anyone who is a “rodeph”. Molesters, rapists, drug pushers should and have to be exposed. That is our obligation as an Am Kadosh. But, hand-in-hand with that, has to be the refinement to know when to cover up.

I agree that in general the sex life of a person is his personal intimacy, provided it takes place between consenting adults.

However, Mr. Tropper advocated a very restrictive policy in these matters. Officially, he defended tzniut above all.

So the effect of these tapes is that Mr. Tropper lost his credibility on tznius in particular and on jewish law in general. Because you cannot tell other people what to do 'according to jewish law' and do the exact contrary yourself. People like this are called hypocrites.

So yes, once Mr. Tropper was removed from all issues pertaining to jewish law (conversions, Rabbi, teacher in a Yeshivah), we should let him rest and his family heal.

At this present moment, it does not look like Tropper was about to retire from all activities pertaining to jewish law. So people will make efforts to remove him till it is done.

127

 Dec 28, 2009 at 05:38 PM I know him Says:

Reply to #62  
Hamaor Shel Torah Machziro Lmutav Says:

I know this will not be popular on this forum but I will say it anyways. I think that despite all that has transpired we need to allow time to heal and bottom line is he is a groise talmid chochom, the fact is that he got his smicha from HaRav Shach z"l and therefore I believe that despite all that has happened all the Torah that he learned in the beis midrash and that he was marbitz borabim which you cannot take away from him certainly will not go to waste ch"v but "HaMaor Shebah Machziro L'mutav". I'd like anyone to challenge me on this as this is what our great chazal tell us about the power of Torah notwithstanding any aveira one might commit.

I have personally known Leibel Tropper (intentionally ommiting the "Rav" title) for over 40 years. The fact that he recieved smicha from Rabbi Shach does not prove he is a groise talmid chochom. At the time that he recieved that smicha he was the
son-in-law of Rabbi Margolin (director of Ezras Torah) who was a good friend of Rabbi Shach back in Kletzk, Poland. He got his smicha upon the favorable recommendation of Rabbi Margolin (plus other high profile smichas). I doubt it very much if he went through a thorough examination. And for sure he would not have recieved that smicha after his divorce (some 25 years ago) from Rabbi Margolin's daughter. 'HaMaor Shebah Machcziro L'mutav' does not apply in all situations just as 'M'toch she lo l'shmah bah l'shma' does not apply k'shelomeid l'kanter (with the purpose of villifying) (tosofos).
I do hope he does t'shuva. But just giving his pareve statement is like what Bill Clinton said after the Monika Lewinsky scandal, that he had "improper contact",
which is deceitful and means nothing.
I think he should approach some 'real' godol or tzadik and ask for a tikkun teshuva, and not suffice himself with deceitful meaningless statements.

128

 Dec 28, 2009 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi and old nieghbor, I BEG YOU get yourself the help you desperately need. You dont want to turn into the 'Monsey Butcher' (if you didnt already).
For a small town like Monsey ther sure is lots of scandal and we do a great job of covering-up scandal. I do feel bad but cannot help thinking - EXPOSE AND SHAME HIM!

129

 Dec 30, 2009 at 10:06 PM Michal bas Avraham Says:

Reply to #87  
professor Says:

There is a very basic issue that is being ignored. The underlying problem is that much of the Jewish world today places respect in men due to their ability to learn. It is a very poor yardstick. The people that excel in learning are almost always simply intelligent and not more ethical. Some people learn all day, and have no character improvement from it- especially if they despise mussar. Cahnging one midda can take a lifetime. Ehrlichkeit and lamdus don't always go hand in hand.

Extremely well said.

I would like to add: he wants to spend time with his loving family... yes, we know how loving his wife is.... and he wants to be left alone.... Hmmmmm, we should leave him alone the way he left alone that convert who wore pants and didn't cover her hair. So, she didn't keep chumros. He violated halachah. D'oraisa is required... D'rabbona... well, they never agree anyway.

130

 Mar 10, 2010 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

"allegations"??? There is proof, they have him on tape being quite "immodest " with another woman (not his wife, not even Jewish yet

what you are suggesting so clearly is itself possibly libelous and a clear violition of jewish law.
loshon hora applies even where the matter is true.
motzi shem ra applies where it is untrue.

I have reason to believe from someone in the town where he live
that a)he was framed b) the tapes refered to-were edited ∴ quite easy to make up with taking the words selected from differant sentances and making a nasty cholent of such a subject.

if what you are actually suggesting is as i am suggesting is untrue-then what you are saying so publicly is actually libelous.

it is indeed difficult and i speak from direct bitter experiences
where even the slightest mistake IF THERE WAS ONE can be takken advantage of an made into more of a scandal than there ever really was.

131

 Mar 10, 2010 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #129  
Michal bas Avraham Says:

Extremely well said.

I would like to add: he wants to spend time with his loving family... yes, we know how loving his wife is.... and he wants to be left alone.... Hmmmmm, we should leave him alone the way he left alone that convert who wore pants and didn't cover her hair. So, she didn't keep chumros. He violated halachah. D'oraisa is required... D'rabbona... well, they never agree anyway.

you sound very sarcastic and disrespectul
eevn if what you say may be correct factually speaking-it is not for you or for any non qaulified person to indicate that drabonon dont matter.-that is somewhat sacreligious.

i understand very well that the subject at hand warrants clearer understanding and could be serious itself.
yet-i have also been told from someone in monsey where he lives
that
a)he was framed
b)the tape was edited and various words were selcted-hence the allegation or indicretion blown all out of proportions.
do you know enough about the halachos and process of giyur and enough evidence of the case itself to say what you are saying?

132

 Mar 10, 2010 at 11:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
zimri kozbi Says:

Trotter is a filthy perverted deviant as is his wife. #8 who are you protecting and how dare you insult the name of rabbanus buy calling trotter shlitah and rav. He's no rov or talmud chochom but a seedy lying perverted deviant adultery and must have no more involvment with yeshivois communal affairs or bochurim or position. He got caught with his pants down and g-d knows what else he has been up to. Get rid of this az ponim scum bag miserable excuse for a jew

are you now the worlds spokesman for rights and wrongs of morals whatever they may be?

133

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