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Israel - Chief Rabbis: Abortions Delay the Arrival of the Messiah |
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Chief Rabbi of Israel Yona Metzger and Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Amar Photo: The Jewish pressIsrael - Chief Rabbi of Israel Yona Metzger and Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Amar announced today that they plan to renew the struggle against abortions though a special committee set up by the Chief Rabbinate, in hopes of preventing “the killing of fetuses in their mother’s womb”.
In a letter sent out to rabbis throughout Israel, Metzger and Amar wrote: “The vast majority of abortions are unnecessary and forbidden by Halacha,” adding the committee was already exploring ways to reduce the number of abortions approved.
The two argue that according to data presented to the Chief Rabbinate, some 50,000 abortions are performed in Israel every year, 20,000 of which are legal. “Adding to the gravity of this transgression is the fact that it impedes the coming of redemption.”
The two religious leaders also expressed their horror at the numbers: “What heart doesn’t cringe by these numbers which indicate nothing less that a pandemic… and the loss of tens of thousands of Jewish souls every year.”
The letter went on to commend the work of Efrat – an anti-abortion organization “which works tirelessly to save fetuses’ lives.”
“The public, said the rabbis, “Must be made to understand the gravity of the killing of fetuses, which is equal to the murder of souls,” adding that community rabbis must include family planning and the abortion ban in their sermons.
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Read Comments (47) — Post Yours »
1
Dec 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM Shlomo Zalman Says:
I think the esteemed rabbis want to say that if abortions are reduced and the redemption arrives, people will forget about how incomptent they are.
2
Dec 29, 2009 at 10:03 AM formally Says:
one can say it is against halacha but how does he know that it impedes the coming of redemption.
one can say that about any sin
3
Dec 29, 2009 at 10:05 AM Anonymous Says:
I'm glad someone is telling it like it is. abortion is murder.
4
Dec 29, 2009 at 10:06 AM Charlie Hall Says:
"Data presented to the Chief Rabbinate"?
What data? What source? Who collected it? Israel collects reliable health statistics that indicate that the number of abortions is approximately 20,000. I've never seen real data that back up Efrat's claim.
If we wish to reduce the number of abortions we should look at what countries with lower abortion rates have done. One can start with the Netherlands, which has the lowest abortion rate in the world even though abortions are free for any citizen. I once asked a Dutch statistician how this can be. She said that the culture there is very different from the irresponsible culture of America: Dutch couples don't engage in sex unless they either (1) want to conceive a child, or (2) are using contraception.
It is also worth noting that the conditions under which abortions are halachically permitted remain a machloket poskim.
5
Dec 29, 2009 at 10:18 AM Anonymous Says:
Everyone agrees on reducing the number of abortions. What we don't agree upon is who should ultimately make that decision: a woman and her doctor or some rav. The answer is obvious. The advise of a rav should be solictited if the woman is frum and wants that input but ultimately, a woman and her doctor must decide as is the law today in EY and the U.S. and most of the civilized world.
6
Dec 29, 2009 at 10:21 AM professor Says:
The gemara says that Mashiach won't come until all the neshamas have left guf- a neshama storage house. These neshamas don't get used. Additionally, murder obviously slows down Mashiach.
7
Dec 29, 2009 at 10:22 AM Avi Says:
I'm no fan of terminating unwanted pregnancies, but I really dislike when things of this nature are claimed to "impede[s] the coming of redemption." I grant you that it's possible. But the point is that we don't know, and I dislike the hyperbole.
Abortion should be denounced on its own (de)merits. There's no need to drag Moshiach into this.
8
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:21 AM black hatter Says:
For crying out loud, the two Chief Rabbis together agree that they must battle against abortion and some readers here prefer to play word games. Instead, words of encouragement and support must be proclaimed so that the Chief Rabbis continue in their holy effort!!
9
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:31 AM Kollel for Life Says:
“ one can say it is against halacha but how does he know that it impedes the coming of redemption.
one can say that about any sin ”
EVERY sin impedes the geulah! Every zchus hastens it - that is basic! But the Rabbonim are saying much more than that:
A sin involving reticha - murder, is most serious, especially when it involves several murderers: the pregnant mother submitting herself to the killing her child; the doctors and nurses who do the actual reticha, the clinic or hospital that facilitate it; those who finance the killing etc.
This is far worse than ANY other avairah. Nefesh achas b'yisroel is an olem malah, mass murder of potential generations. In prespective, imagine the zchus gadol of saving a yid's life - this is the reverse!!
Seforim say that moshiach will come when all neshomos have been born... This is my it is a mitxvah to have many children, hastening the geulah (contrary to those who speak for their yetzer ho'rah claiming to control the size of families and limit them).
10
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:32 AM Honesty Says:
Thank you #6 for the response to #2. It's a gemara in maseches Avoda Zara (5a). So no, not every sin is likened to be the cause of holdong back the Mashiach.
Additionally, what #4 said " It is also worth noting that the conditions under which abortions are halachically permitted remain a machloket poskim"; is going off topic. True there are different views dependong on when, how, or the physical/mental state of the mother is which might permit the abortion, but that is a side issue (in truth the rulings are actually pretty much unanimous amongst real accepted poskim, so isn't realy any argument). The topic at this meeting was the overall number according to all views of halachically illegal abortions.
11
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:36 AM Anonymous Says:
The Gemora and Chazal say in a few places that in order for Moshiach to come the Neshmos in Shomaiym need to be given a Guf. So in fact each abortion does delay Moshiach's arrival as that Neshoma now needs a different Guf to be born in.
Let's be clear that these 2 Rabbonim (as many others) are clearly letting us know that this particular prat (of delaying Moshiach) has to do with abortion.
Murder is a diffferent issue and of course this is murder as well.
14
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "Data presented to the Chief Rabbinate"?
What data? What source? Who collected it? Israel collects reliable health statistics that indicate that the number of abortions is approximately 20,000. I've never seen real data that back up Efrat's claim.
If we wish to reduce the number of abortions we should look at what countries with lower abortion rates have done. One can start with the Netherlands, which has the lowest abortion rate in the world even though abortions are free for any citizen. I once asked a Dutch statistician how this can be. She said that the culture there is very different from the irresponsible culture of America: Dutch couples don't engage in sex unless they either (1) want to conceive a child, or (2) are using contraception.
It is also worth noting that the conditions under which abortions are halachically permitted remain a machloket poskim.
”
"She said that the culture there is very different from the irresponsible culture of America"
Irresponsonsible culture of AMERICA? This article is about the 50K plus babies that Jews kill in your precious Isreal each year, keep America out of it.
15
Dec 29, 2009 at 12:26 PM Honesty Says:
Can everyone please stop with the "seforim say" "the geamara says" "chazal say" "it's brought down". You clearly all don't know where this statement about Moshiach being held back etc. is found (it's in maseches Avoda Zara 5a), so how can you all qoute and even interpert the meaning of the gemara without seeing it at it's source?!
The same goes for the classic "all poskim" or "the rabbonim say" abortion etc. By just throwing around qoutes without even knowing their sources, noone is right because noone can back up their words. So let's not spew, shall we?
16
Dec 29, 2009 at 01:24 PM Devorah Says:
I wonder if these great Rabbaim are aware of the thousands of children in orphanages across Israel. More than half of these children have parents who are unable to house or support them for various reasons: poverty, mental illness, medical illness, etc.
Efrat is an organization I admire, not because it launches into the whole, "Women are evil if they abort!", which is a mistake, but because it recognizes the reasons behind abortion, and seeks to alleviate them. When you have such a large number of women living in poverty, and finding themselves pregnant with another mouth to feed and barely able to feed themselves, having that child becomes overwhelming. Offer food, clothing, babysitting, baby gear, baby clothes, and support, and suddenly, women are able to have the child.
These Rabbaim need to address the reasons behind abortion, rather than villianizing the women who undergo them. Perhaps they should donate some of the large amounts of money that people give to them to these poor women, and to feed their children. Perhaps Israel should lighten up on their adoption policies.
17
Dec 29, 2009 at 01:25 PM Anonymous Says:
Why don't these "Ravs" try to help free agunos trapped in dead marriages so that countless yiddishe kinder are brought into the world by women who want to have them. Usually women who have abortions are lowlives that you wouldn't them to reproduce anyway.
18
Dec 29, 2009 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:
look in zohar about the severity of the sin
19
Dec 29, 2009 at 01:42 PM Dr. Z Says:
With the exception of the 'daas yachid' of the Tzitz Eliezer, ztl, whose psak permitted a late-abortion in a certain case (obviously a valid psak, but vigorously opposed by Rav Moshe Feinstein ztl and others), the Gedolim seem to be united in opposition to abortion wherein the mother's life is not being threatened by the pregnancy itself.
Dr. Eli Schussheim, an oleh from South America, has dedicated much of his life to stopping the tens of thousands of yearly abortions in Israel performed for reasons such as economic worries, social pressure, and the like.
Let's not kid ourselves: there are single girls here and there who find themselves pregnant. They cannot rely on the 'ambatyia' excuse, and many are pressured into abortions, both in the secular and the 'frum' communities, by parents, and others.
There is no halachic disagreement as to whether an abortion 40 days or more after conception can be performed except for truly endangering circumstances.
What "Efrat: Just One Life" does is offer financial and emotional support to those young ladies, single or married, who find themselves pregnant nad are considering an abortion for non-halachic reasons.
Kol Hakavod to them.
20
Dec 29, 2009 at 01:47 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ "She said that the culture there is very different from the irresponsible culture of America"
Irresponsonsible culture of AMERICA? This article is about the 50K plus babies that Jews kill in your precious Isreal each year, keep America out of it. ”
I have yet to see real data to support the 50K claim. If the 20K data are correct, Israel would have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world.
22
Dec 29, 2009 at 02:36 PM Heaven Help Us! Says:
Abortion mostly is done for purely selfish reasons. That I believe is a terrible aveira. If someone has bitachon in Hashem, even if she feels she can't afford a child or raise her child, she would still have the child and then rely on Hashem. There are many women who are childless and would gladly pay to adopt a child or more. Why would a woman get pregnant if she is going to abort. Everyone knows what causes pregnancy so why don't those women do something if they don't want their children? I don't think there are 20,000 or more abortions done in E"Y, for purely medical reasons.
23
Dec 29, 2009 at 03:02 PM Anonymous Says:
Will these rabbis be setting up programs to care for those women during their pregnancies if they forego an abortion and arrange for their followers to adopt the babies?
24
Dec 29, 2009 at 03:50 PM Shimon Says:
A sad by-product of this is that so many Jews in this country are part of the so-called "pro-choice" movement. So much so that the gentile world believes that this is the Jewish position. We, who value life, should be doing a better job at PR.
25
Dec 29, 2009 at 04:00 PM Dr. Z Says:
Reply to #20: Whether the number of annual abortions in Israel is 20,000 or 50,000, we are talking about TENS OF THOUSANDS of Jewish children who are not being born, EVERY YEAR, due to considerations other than halachic ones.
The State of Israel would have looked very different if even 10,000 more Jewish babies were born every year for the past 30 decades. That would have been meant 300,000 more Jews, and it would stand to reason that as many of 100,000 of these would have grown up and would have given birth to other children, so we are talking about 500,000 or more Jews permanently ost, due to the secular ethics and financial factors of the secular doctors and social workers who encourage these abortions.
Therefore, I again say Kol haKavod to Dr. Schussheim, whose portion in Olam HaBa is unimaginable. Those who wish to may contribute to Efrat and gain an eternal reward.
26
Dec 29, 2009 at 04:28 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "Data presented to the Chief Rabbinate"?
What data? What source? Who collected it? Israel collects reliable health statistics that indicate that the number of abortions is approximately 20,000. I've never seen real data that back up Efrat's claim.
If we wish to reduce the number of abortions we should look at what countries with lower abortion rates have done. One can start with the Netherlands, which has the lowest abortion rate in the world even though abortions are free for any citizen. I once asked a Dutch statistician how this can be. She said that the culture there is very different from the irresponsible culture of America: Dutch couples don't engage in sex unless they either (1) want to conceive a child, or (2) are using contraception.
It is also worth noting that the conditions under which abortions are halachically permitted remain a machloket poskim.
”
Why don't you call them and ask where they got their data. You can't refute data with claims like "I have yet to see". That is totally illogical. I'm sure there are medical statistics in Israel that you are not privileged to have access to, or have no idea how to get. As usual your arguments and views are totally illogical and have no merit.
27
Dec 29, 2009 at 04:57 PM OMG Says:
“ The gemara says that Mashiach won't come until all the neshamas have left guf- a neshama storage house. These neshamas don't get used. Additionally, murder obviously slows down Mashiach. ”
If that is true then what did hold back moshiach for the last 1800 years, before the proliferation of abortions
28
Dec 29, 2009 at 05:04 PM AP Says:
Hey dimwit, Professor is just paraphrasing a gemara and stating a fact that an unborn child = no neshama. Your the real dummy.
If you don't believe the gemara then you probably deny there is a G-D. Following your logic, why the heck should the rabbis "clean their act", and why the heck should people listen to them.
You gotta just love these arguments
29
Dec 29, 2009 at 05:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ A sad by-product of this is that so many Jews in this country are part of the so-called "pro-choice" movement. So much so that the gentile world believes that this is the Jewish position. We, who value life, should be doing a better job at PR. ”
Talking about babies and souls rather than "jewish babies" and "jewish souls" would also be a first start.
30
Dec 29, 2009 at 06:02 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ With the exception of the 'daas yachid' of the Tzitz Eliezer, ztl, whose psak permitted a late-abortion in a certain case (obviously a valid psak, but vigorously opposed by Rav Moshe Feinstein ztl and others), the Gedolim seem to be united in opposition to abortion wherein the mother's life is not being threatened by the pregnancy itself.
Dr. Eli Schussheim, an oleh from South America, has dedicated much of his life to stopping the tens of thousands of yearly abortions in Israel performed for reasons such as economic worries, social pressure, and the like.
Let's not kid ourselves: there are single girls here and there who find themselves pregnant. They cannot rely on the 'ambatyia' excuse, and many are pressured into abortions, both in the secular and the 'frum' communities, by parents, and others.
There is no halachic disagreement as to whether an abortion 40 days or more after conception can be performed except for truly endangering circumstances.
What "Efrat: Just One Life" does is offer financial and emotional support to those young ladies, single or married, who find themselves pregnant nad are considering an abortion for non-halachic reasons.
Kol Hakavod to them. ”
FWIW, the Tzitz Eliezer is not a daat yachid. Rabbi Shlomo Aviner paskens the same way.
31
Dec 29, 2009 at 06:04 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Why don't you call them and ask where they got their data. You can't refute data with claims like "I have yet to see". That is totally illogical. I'm sure there are medical statistics in Israel that you are not privileged to have access to, or have no idea how to get. As usual your arguments and views are totally illogical and have no merit. ”
The Israel Central Bureau of Statistics in Israel publishes their data. Efrat does not. The burden is on them to prove their claims. Until then, I must continue to assume that CBS is correct and that Israel has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world.
32
Dec 29, 2009 at 06:13 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ I wonder if these great Rabbaim are aware of the thousands of children in orphanages across Israel. More than half of these children have parents who are unable to house or support them for various reasons: poverty, mental illness, medical illness, etc.
Efrat is an organization I admire, not because it launches into the whole, "Women are evil if they abort!", which is a mistake, but because it recognizes the reasons behind abortion, and seeks to alleviate them. When you have such a large number of women living in poverty, and finding themselves pregnant with another mouth to feed and barely able to feed themselves, having that child becomes overwhelming. Offer food, clothing, babysitting, baby gear, baby clothes, and support, and suddenly, women are able to have the child.
These Rabbaim need to address the reasons behind abortion, rather than villianizing the women who undergo them. Perhaps they should donate some of the large amounts of money that people give to them to these poor women, and to feed their children. Perhaps Israel should lighten up on their adoption policies. ”
Devorah,
To be fair, I'm not sure either the Rabbis or Efrat are trying to villianize women. But anonymous blog commenters sure are! Abortion is NOT like murder; the halachic penalty for an abortion is a fine and not death.
Not to mention the fact that the same arguments about delaying mashiach could be made regarding artificial birth control, except that in many cases there is no halachic problem with many types of birth control, particularly if the family already has a male and a female child! And similarly for abortions prior to 40 days after conception according to many poskim. We don't pasken halachah from aggadata. (And as noted some poskim are quite lenient regarding when an abortion is permiited; Rabbi Shlomo Aviner recently permitted aborting a Down's syndrome fetus.)
And I was unaware that there are large numbers of children in orphanages in Israel. That is a shonda! There are so many couples who can't conceive even with assisted reproductive technologies!!!
33
Dec 29, 2009 at 06:16 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ A sad by-product of this is that so many Jews in this country are part of the so-called "pro-choice" movement. So much so that the gentile world believes that this is the Jewish position. We, who value life, should be doing a better job at PR. ”
A major reason why even Orthodox Jews in America support the pro-choice political position is that every Christian anti-abortion group would prohibit abortions that are halachically mandated.
My wife is a family physician who asked a shilah of a prominent talmid chacham of whether she could teach medical residents how to perform abortions. To her surprise (mine, too) the answer was essentially "yes" because the fact that some abortions are halachically mandated means that there have to be doctors able to perform them.
34
Dec 29, 2009 at 06:18 PM professor Says:
If you don't believe in Mashiach and the Gemara, you shoyld be blogging on the non-Jewish sites.
35
Dec 29, 2009 at 06:19 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Will these rabbis be setting up programs to care for those women during their pregnancies if they forego an abortion and arrange for their followers to adopt the babies? ”
To be fair, I think Efrat would like to do that if it had the resources.
36
Dec 29, 2009 at 06:30 PM Devorah Says:
“ Abortion mostly is done for purely selfish reasons. That I believe is a terrible aveira. If someone has bitachon in Hashem, even if she feels she can't afford a child or raise her child, she would still have the child and then rely on Hashem. There are many women who are childless and would gladly pay to adopt a child or more. Why would a woman get pregnant if she is going to abort. Everyone knows what causes pregnancy so why don't those women do something if they don't want their children? I don't think there are 20,000 or more abortions done in E"Y, for purely medical reasons. ”
"Abortion mostly is done for purely selfish reasons. That I believe is a terrible aveira. If someone has bitachon in Hashem, even if she feels she can't afford a child or raise her child, she would still have the child and then rely on Hashem. There are many women who are childless and would gladly pay to adopt a child or more."
Do you know what I keep hearing in your statement? The mother. The woman. The mother. The woman. Let me ask you: Where is the father? Ahhh. Therein lies your answer.
Also, you write off the sha'alah rather quickly. Women went to R' Feinstein regarding aborting a fetus with Tay-Sachs. The answer was no, but R' Feinstein is allowed to say something, and a regular guy like yourself, who has never raised a child with severe problems, can not make such a statement. Abortion is never an easy decision, and right or wrong, to throw away words like, "you're selfish!" And, "have more bitachon!" is juvenile.
Also, you have no idea how impossible it is to adopt a child in Israel. If you did, you would never say such a thing. "Just grow a baby for nine months and give it away! I'm sure there's a shop for that sort of thing!"
37
Dec 29, 2009 at 07:30 PM Heaven Help Us! Says:
“ "Abortion mostly is done for purely selfish reasons. That I believe is a terrible aveira. If someone has bitachon in Hashem, even if she feels she can't afford a child or raise her child, she would still have the child and then rely on Hashem. There are many women who are childless and would gladly pay to adopt a child or more."
Do you know what I keep hearing in your statement? The mother. The woman. The mother. The woman. Let me ask you: Where is the father? Ahhh. Therein lies your answer.
Also, you write off the sha'alah rather quickly. Women went to R' Feinstein regarding aborting a fetus with Tay-Sachs. The answer was no, but R' Feinstein is allowed to say something, and a regular guy like yourself, who has never raised a child with severe problems, can not make such a statement. Abortion is never an easy decision, and right or wrong, to throw away words like, "you're selfish!" And, "have more bitachon!" is juvenile.
Also, you have no idea how impossible it is to adopt a child in Israel. If you did, you would never say such a thing. "Just grow a baby for nine months and give it away! I'm sure there's a shop for that sort of thing!" ”
Why is it impossible to adopt a baby in Israel if there are people who want a baby and orphanages that are too full? I don't think 20,000 people are having abortions because they're all going to have deformed or diseased babies. I still maintain that they shouldn't have gotten pregnant to begin with, and if they did they should give the babies away if they don't feel they can raise them. You ask where the fathers are in the picture - yes, if the father is in the picture, he should be involved in his child's fate, if he doesn't want to raise his child he should also see to it that someone else does. If an unmarried Jewish woman gets pregnant, she probably doesn't want her baby because she is selfish and she should have taken proper precautions beforehand. If she is married she has a husband and they're in this together, but, if they didn't want a child, they should have prevented its conception. If the woman was raped, or the fetus is making her ill, then a shailo has to be asked. I don't think 20,000 women were raped or are ill because of pregnancy.
38
Dec 29, 2009 at 08:35 PM Anonymous Says:
So which rabbis are offering to assist one of these women during their pregnancy and then adopt the child?
39
Dec 29, 2009 at 09:16 PM HaHa Says:
“ I have yet to see real data to support the 50K claim. If the 20K data are correct, Israel would have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. ”
Trying to argue your views by saying “I have yet to see real data" is like trying to win an argument by claiming ignorance. You never cease to amaze me chuckie. Thanks for the comic relief though.
40
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:07 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Devorah,
To be fair, I'm not sure either the Rabbis or Efrat are trying to villianize women. But anonymous blog commenters sure are! Abortion is NOT like murder; the halachic penalty for an abortion is a fine and not death.
Not to mention the fact that the same arguments about delaying mashiach could be made regarding artificial birth control, except that in many cases there is no halachic problem with many types of birth control, particularly if the family already has a male and a female child! And similarly for abortions prior to 40 days after conception according to many poskim. We don't pasken halachah from aggadata. (And as noted some poskim are quite lenient regarding when an abortion is permiited; Rabbi Shlomo Aviner recently permitted aborting a Down's syndrome fetus.)
And I was unaware that there are large numbers of children in orphanages in Israel. That is a shonda! There are so many couples who can't conceive even with assisted reproductive technologies!!! ”
Hall, you are a deliberate liar. Abortion is not LIKE murder, it IS murder. It is שופך דם האדם באדם. As for the fact that a yid is not executed for it, what do you think that proves? A yid who kills a goy is also not executed; does that mean killing a goy is not murder? Is that really what you want to say? And of course if it's not murder how do you explain the fact that a goy who murders a foetus IS executed (just as is a goy who murders another goy)? Face it, you support murder.
41
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:17 PM Anonymous Says:
the only thing that is delaying the arrival of the moshiach are all the false rabbis,rebbunim,who are in positions of leadership that they should not be in.these people dont know how to see the good in people and walk around with judgment and distain for others,and therefore bring tremendous din to the world..
42
Dec 29, 2009 at 11:30 PM Charlie Hall Says:
“ "Abortion mostly is done for purely selfish reasons. That I believe is a terrible aveira. If someone has bitachon in Hashem, even if she feels she can't afford a child or raise her child, she would still have the child and then rely on Hashem. There are many women who are childless and would gladly pay to adopt a child or more."
Do you know what I keep hearing in your statement? The mother. The woman. The mother. The woman. Let me ask you: Where is the father? Ahhh. Therein lies your answer.
Also, you write off the sha'alah rather quickly. Women went to R' Feinstein regarding aborting a fetus with Tay-Sachs. The answer was no, but R' Feinstein is allowed to say something, and a regular guy like yourself, who has never raised a child with severe problems, can not make such a statement. Abortion is never an easy decision, and right or wrong, to throw away words like, "you're selfish!" And, "have more bitachon!" is juvenile.
Also, you have no idea how impossible it is to adopt a child in Israel. If you did, you would never say such a thing. "Just grow a baby for nine months and give it away! I'm sure there's a shop for that sort of thing!" ”
Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg z'tz'l *permitted* aborting a Tay-Sachs fetus even in the second trimester. And his opinions have been generally accepted in Israel. (In America we are more likely to follow Rav Moshe z'tz'l.)
43
Dec 30, 2009 at 12:29 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Why is it impossible to adopt a baby in Israel if there are people who want a baby and orphanages that are too full? I don't think 20,000 people are having abortions because they're all going to have deformed or diseased babies. I still maintain that they shouldn't have gotten pregnant to begin with, and if they did they should give the babies away if they don't feel they can raise them. You ask where the fathers are in the picture - yes, if the father is in the picture, he should be involved in his child's fate, if he doesn't want to raise his child he should also see to it that someone else does. If an unmarried Jewish woman gets pregnant, she probably doesn't want her baby because she is selfish and she should have taken proper precautions beforehand. If she is married she has a husband and they're in this together, but, if they didn't want a child, they should have prevented its conception. If the woman was raped, or the fetus is making her ill, then a shailo has to be asked. I don't think 20,000 women were raped or are ill because of pregnancy. ”
If the following essay is correct, many of Israel's abortions would be halachicly permissible according to the opinions of Rav Waldenberg z'tz'l or Rav Aviner:
"The relatively liberal attitude in the national religious community toward termination of abnormal pregnancies reflects the overall Israeli attitude toward prenatal testing. Israel’s mothers undergo more prenatal testing, including multiple ultrasounds and state-of-the-art tests paid for by the government, than those of any other country. A doctor quoted in the article said that Israel has the world’s highest termination rates because of fetal defects."
http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/
Unfortunately, no numbers are given so it is impossible to know whether this is a large fraction of the number of abortions.
44
Dec 30, 2009 at 12:37 AM Devorah Says:
Hi Charlie and Heaven Help Us -
Check out the orphanages in Israel, such as Migdal Ohr. Also, take the time to review Israel's adoption procedures and limitations. You will note that most children in orphanages are not true orphans, but their parents can no longer care for them. These parents are not willing to give up full custody of the children. Even for the small amount of children available for adoption, the laws are difficult. Israel does not allow for non-citizens to adopt a child, nor can the child be taken out of the country. You must be a citizen for three years to adopt, and only then from an approved agency. And even at that point, the process can cost far more than infertility treatments, and requires a whole host of hired help, such as lawyers, social workers, court documents, etc.
45
Dec 30, 2009 at 12:38 AM Charlie Hall Says:
“ Why is it impossible to adopt a baby in Israel if there are people who want a baby and orphanages that are too full? I don't think 20,000 people are having abortions because they're all going to have deformed or diseased babies. I still maintain that they shouldn't have gotten pregnant to begin with, and if they did they should give the babies away if they don't feel they can raise them. You ask where the fathers are in the picture - yes, if the father is in the picture, he should be involved in his child's fate, if he doesn't want to raise his child he should also see to it that someone else does. If an unmarried Jewish woman gets pregnant, she probably doesn't want her baby because she is selfish and she should have taken proper precautions beforehand. If she is married she has a husband and they're in this together, but, if they didn't want a child, they should have prevented its conception. If the woman was raped, or the fetus is making her ill, then a shailo has to be asked. I don't think 20,000 women were raped or are ill because of pregnancy. ”
The Wikipedia article on abortions in Israel cites an Israeli government report that says the following regarding the reasons for abortions approval in Israel
"Most abortions were authorized because the woman was unmarried (42%), because of illegal circumstances (11%), health risks to the woman (about 20%), age of the woman (11%) and fetal birth defects (about 17%)."
Illegal circumstances means rape or incest. Age means under 17 or over 40. The third reason would be mutar under all opinions and the fifth would probably be mutar according to the Tzitz Eliezer. These statistics show the difficulty and the opportunity here: The women having non-halachic abortions were mostly unmarried, or of not the usual childbearing ages, or crime victims and would represent roughly 12,000 abortions each year. These are precisely the women who will need the most support in their pregnancies and it is where an organization like Efrat can make a difference. The unmarried women also need to be encouraged to use contraception if they are having sex; that is where the Netherlands has had such huge success in reducing abortions.
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Dec 30, 2009 at 08:55 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The Wikipedia article on abortions in Israel cites an Israeli government report that says the following regarding the reasons for abortions approval in Israel
"Most abortions were authorized because the woman was unmarried (42%), because of illegal circumstances (11%), health risks to the woman (about 20%), age of the woman (11%) and fetal birth defects (about 17%)."
Illegal circumstances means rape or incest. Age means under 17 or over 40. The third reason would be mutar under all opinions and the fifth would probably be mutar according to the Tzitz Eliezer. These statistics show the difficulty and the opportunity here: The women having non-halachic abortions were mostly unmarried, or of not the usual childbearing ages, or crime victims and would represent roughly 12,000 abortions each year. These are precisely the women who will need the most support in their pregnancies and it is where an organization like Efrat can make a difference. The unmarried women also need to be encouraged to use contraception if they are having sex; that is where the Netherlands has had such huge success in reducing abortions.
”
Stop putting the onus just on the woman. Shouldn't you also be saying that the man also needs to be encouraged to use birth control. It takes two to make a baby. The pill carries significant health risks for women and there are contraceptive methods for males to use that do not pose any health risks, but males must be taught how to use them.
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Dec 30, 2009 at 09:46 AM yid Says:
“ one can say it is against halacha but how does he know that it impedes the coming of redemption.
one can say that about any sin ”
i agree with you. its unfortunate that today rabbonim dont have the respect they once did from the public. it is because ofthis, they have to make "attenntion grabbing" comments like " it will halt the coming of meshiach!
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Dec 30, 2009 at 03:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ A major reason why even Orthodox Jews in America support the pro-choice political position is that every Christian anti-abortion group would prohibit abortions that are halachically mandated.
My wife is a family physician who asked a shilah of a prominent talmid chacham of whether she could teach medical residents how to perform abortions. To her surprise (mine, too) the answer was essentially "yes" because the fact that some abortions are halachically mandated means that there have to be doctors able to perform them.
”
Your wife should not be allowed to practice medicine if she has to ask permission, and may decide against teaching medical procedures. You check your religion at the door when dealing with medicine. If something is against her beliefs then she should have a profession with no controversy.
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Dec 31, 2009 at 12:32 AM Anonymous Says:
The Zohar, on Shemos 3b, says the following: “There are three persons who drive the Shechina, the Divine Presence, away from the world, making it impossible for the Holy One, Blessed Be He, to fix His abode in the universe and causing prayer to be unanswered. The third is he who causes the fetus to be destroyed in the womb, for he destroys the artifice of the Holy One, Blessed Be He, and His workmanship. For these abominations the Spirit of Holiness weeps.” According to Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein, “Though a Jew who kills a fetus is not punished by the judicial system as a murderer, he has nonetheless violated the prohibition of murder. It is like the case of one who has killed a treifa (an individual with a fatal wound or defect); he is not liable for capital punishment, though he has violated the prohibition on murder and is liable for divine retribution.”
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Dec 31, 2009 at 12:40 AM Anonymous Says:
“ I wonder if these great Rabbaim are aware of the thousands of children in orphanages across Israel. More than half of these children have parents who are unable to house or support them for various reasons: poverty, mental illness, medical illness, etc.
Efrat is an organization I admire, not because it launches into the whole, "Women are evil if they abort!", which is a mistake, but because it recognizes the reasons behind abortion, and seeks to alleviate them. When you have such a large number of women living in poverty, and finding themselves pregnant with another mouth to feed and barely able to feed themselves, having that child becomes overwhelming. Offer food, clothing, babysitting, baby gear, baby clothes, and support, and suddenly, women are able to have the child.
These Rabbaim need to address the reasons behind abortion, rather than villianizing the women who undergo them. Perhaps they should donate some of the large amounts of money that people give to them to these poor women, and to feed their children. Perhaps Israel should lighten up on their adoption policies. ”
The Meshech Chochmah, Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, in his commentary to Exodus 35:2, states that while abortion is not a penal crime, abortion is a crime punishable at the hands of heaven. One who aborts is yumat- having the status of one who shall be put to death, referring to execution at the hands of heaven. He believes therefore that the verse “And he that smites a man shall be put to death” in Leviticus 24:21 is not a reiteration of the penalty against homicide, but refers to the destruction of the unborn child, which is punishable at the hands of heaven. He refers to the unborn child as a man, and for the Meshech Chochmah, this poses no difficulty, since the above-mentioned verse from Genesis refers to the unborn child as a man, whose murder warrants execution.