“ Excuse me.... did the children who need the Apartment, ever heard of the word "work?" My Father Z"L bought me zilch, and I never expected anything from him but his unconditional love. If you need an apartment ... go out and get a job. ”

“ Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos... The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you? ”

“ Let them get married in a Rav's office with 2 eidim. Meshulachim come to my door on a daily basis from Eretz Yisroel for money for a chasunah. The money that they spent for a plane ticket should more than cover a wedding -- herring and schnappes. Selling a kidney to fund a 5 hour affair that has nothing to do with the rest of the couples' lives???? To buy an apartment for children? This makes me want to throw up. You can live with one kidney only until that one fails, not to mention that it's illegal. ”

“ I think Elyashiv's psak was based on the fact that the average Hareidi couple has 7 children but only two saleable kidneys. Still, you do have to wonder at a culture where selling one's organs seems like a less drastic measure than actually obtaining an honest job or imparting a marketable skill to one's children. ”

“ I think Elyashiv's psak was based on the fact that the average Hareidi couple has 7 children but only two saleable kidneys. Still, you do have to wonder at a culture where selling one's organs seems like a less drastic measure than actually obtaining an honest job or imparting a marketable skill to one's children. ”

“ Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos... The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you? ”

“ The problem many of these children don't have the education and skills to get a job sufficient to finance the purchase of an apartment and they are too young to have saved up even if they did work. ”

“ I find almost all of the responses (perhaps save #15) highly distasteful. There is clearly a problem, both in Eretz Yisrael and Chul, of people not taking the responsibility to work and support their families. However, the amount of Torah that is being learned in Eretz Yisrael is extraordinary and beyond anything that was for the past 2,000 years. Clearly a balance must be struck. However, bashing those that are willing to live a true Torah life and be devoted to Limud HaTorah is absolutely wrong. Perhaps the boys and girls need to be educated in the Rambam's statement of "those wanting to acquire the crown of Torah need to eat bread and salt, sleep on the floor etc." In this way, their lower expectations and small material needs would allow them to acquire the crown that is so elusive for most. ”

“ "Elyashiv's psak" Who the hell to you think you are!! It's RABBI Elyashiv, you fool!! ”

“ Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos... The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you? ”

“ maybe he did not say Rabbi since Elyashiv does not seem to know basic halacha that one needs to work ”

“ Hello? There are a ton of working families in Israel (probably also around the world) who cannot afford the wedding, let alone an apartment. So please don't be judgmental of the ones who are in kollel. They are NOT the only ones who cannot provide an apartment. Plenty of working parents are taking out loans they really cannot afford to pay for the basics of a wedding. There is a MITZVAH of hachnassas kallah. We should all be giving generously, according to our ability. ”

“ a few months ago everyone here was defending a jewish kidney broker (some kidneys fetched 160k) who paid the donor 10 k..

the defense was always you are saving a life,,

so why cant they sell it now to save a life and pocket some cash?
i dont undertsand
”

“ Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos... The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you? ”

“ Hello? There are a ton of working families in Israel (probably also around the world) who cannot afford the wedding, let alone an apartment. So please don't be judgmental of the ones who are in kollel. They are NOT the only ones who cannot provide an apartment. Plenty of working parents are taking out loans they really cannot afford to pay for the basics of a wedding. There is a MITZVAH of hachnassas kallah. We should all be giving generously, according to our ability. ”

“ I got married over 15 years ago and nobody helped me. Been working ever since and still renting with a bunch of kids. I sympathisize with an impoverished Choson and Kallah because of my own bitter experiance. On the other hand I never would have dreamed of asking my parents or inlaws who themselves are poor, to help me pay for any of my expenses let alone sue them for not being able to do so. All I can say is helping a Chosson and Kallah and not just helping but enabling them to be besimcha and helping your poor neighbors is a Chesed that probably will buy you Olam Haba. I still feel after 15 years marriage as though I did not fully get married because I was so lacking of basic neccesities that everyone else takes for granted and it is painful. ”

“ "... those who encourage young men to make financial demands of family members were "murderers" since they induce brides' parents to jeopardize their health and future. "

This statement was so ill-conceived. If people take this statement seriously, all that will happen will be that the boys will marry other girls and leave even more girls unmarried. Without changing a mindset, nothing positive will happen.

The real problem is the Israeli chareidi community's mindset. Except for the elite learners or those who have independent financial means, the Rabbonim should encourage most bochurim to train for a parnosso and not expect others to support them. The apartment, the chassan's gold watch, the kallah's bracelet, and all the other mishugassim need to go away. ”

“ sure beats working. also can sell corneas and blood. ”

“ sure beats working. also can sell corneas and blood. ”

“ Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos... The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you? ”

“ Hello? There are a ton of working families in Israel (probably also around the world) who cannot afford the wedding, let alone an apartment. So please don't be judgmental of the ones who are in kollel. They are NOT the only ones who cannot provide an apartment. Plenty of working parents are taking out loans they really cannot afford to pay for the basics of a wedding. There is a MITZVAH of hachnassas kallah. We should all be giving generously, according to our ability. ”

“ this reminds me of a story (not sure it is true but it has a point)
Two rosh yeshivas where sitting in beis medresh and a kollel guy went to his rosh yeshiva and said my parents and the girl parents cannot afford to support us anymore what should I do. His rosh yeshiva said well, go out and earn a living. The visiting rosh yeshiva said, wow you must have very big shoulders, to tell someone to leave kollel to leave from studying Torah all day.

The kollel guy's rosh yeshiva answered to the visiting rosh yeshiva you must have even bigger shoulders, put food on his table.

The visiting rosh yeshiva just sat there with his moth opened and did not have an answer ”

“ You have no idea of what you are posting about. The University system in Israel does not require IDF service. However, the only way to enter college is to pass the entrance examination--which requires more than a 7th grade knowledge of English, mathematics, science, and a number of other secular topics.

Of course, in University one would also have to mix with women. Treif is not a problem, although I don't think that you would find a badatz hechsher on campus. And there are no classes on Shabbat. Keep in mind that many well-paying jobs might also require "mixing" with women....

Of course, you could start a university to your own exacting standards.....rather than blaming everyone else for the failings of your own system... ”

“ There are no decent jobs for charedim because the average charedi yeshiva boy has no marketable skills. None. Who wants to hire someone who has remedial educational skills? Business people don't want to deal with it. That is not the fault of the chilonim. ”

“ "A yeshiva student from Jerusalem who is about to marry his daughter asked the distinguished Lithuanian rabbi whether he could sell a kidney in order to purchase an apartment for the young couple:"

What I find astounding about this article and no one seems to have commented upon is that apparently it is the FATHER who is the impoverished "yeshiva student" lacking the funds to marry off-his daughter who apparently is also unemployed. Why isn't the father working. Presumably, the chasan is also an unemployed bochur since there is no mention of him, C'V paying for his own apartment and starting a family. So the father has no parnassah and is presumably on welfare and his children and son-in law also have no parnassah. Why are the charedi rabbonim focused on halacha governing the sale of his organs. Why not simply issue a psak saying: "NO MORE MARRIAGES, until the chasan/kalah go out and get a job and are able to support themselves or they have support from the parents who are working. This culture of multi-generational dysfunctional families needs to stop somewhere. ”

“ 1) It's not that the father is insisting on the fancy chassunah, it's the choson's family -- and that of the surrounding culture -- that is insisting on it. No money, no chosson. That's reality.
Those with yichus can get away with not having money, but those without yichus or prestige have to come up with the bucks if they want to marry off their daughters.

2)When kidneys fail, chas v'sholom, they both fail. Having two kidneys rather than one is only an advantage in the event of trauma, where one kidney becomes damaged due to traumatic injury, as opposed to disease (lo aleinu). ”

“ Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos... The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you? ”

“ Sell his kidney for an apartment for his son?!! He needs a psychiatrist, not a psak. Suing parents for support money.?!! What type of crazy world do we live in? Who is brainwashing these kids? ”

“ How sad that we got into this mess. Kollel is made for those that excel in learning and will become "klei kodesh". There should be written tests after every zman to decide whether this yungerman should be allowed to continue on. Did well, go for the next zman. Failed - go to work. Period.
I know of one kolel that does not pay a salry. There is a price paid for each "bechina". The more "bechinos" you take and pass - the more you make. Way to go!
There is enough maaser money in klal Yisroel to support these talmidei chachomim in style - but only those that are destined to become true Roshei Yeshivos or Poskim.
Sadly, most kolelim and institutions are businesses, and their inventory is bodies of kolel yungerleit ("I have the biggest kolel in Israel, in the US, etc), and they care for their business at the expense of these yungerleit - by telling them to just continue learning. You are derving of your shver and shviger selling their kidneys so that you can avoid the real world and your kesuba obligations.
Very sad - oilem goilem! ”

“ I married a wealthy eye-surgeon's daughter and my kallah and I made sure the wedding was very modest. The engagement ring I bought her was less than $100 and, 15 years later, I haven't managed to replace it. we both work and we're pretty heavy in debt, so I have no idea how all these frummies do it! ”

“ Mr. Goilem, I think your line of thinking is "very sad!"

Kollel men who truly learn all day- are "klei kodesh"!! The kedusha of learning- just for the sake of learning, protects the world. This is not a new concept. There were always those who "just learned" throughout the generations. Dovid Hamelech davened for this- "shivti b'veis Hashem kol yemei chayai." Reb Aharon Kotler ztl spent his life replanting this concept on American soil.

These Kollel families, generally speaking, give up living a life of luxury, in order to sit in the tent of Torah. There are certainlt those in kollel who would be better off in the workplace, however, this is a minority. Maybe a visible minority, but nevertheless a minority.

I would challange most working men, to spend two weeks in the Beis Medrash. First seder, second seder and night seder, toiling in Torah. See if they can handle coming home eleven o'cklock at night, to begin taking care of the tzorchei habayis, going through the mail, openning bills with know idea how Hashem is planning on putting money in his account to pay them.

Most people would konk out, space out, and plotz after two days, guaranteed! ”

“ Mr. Goilem, I think your line of thinking is "very sad!"

Kollel men who truly learn all day- are "klei kodesh"!! The kedusha of learning- just for the sake of learning, protects the world. This is not a new concept. There were always those who "just learned" throughout the generations. Dovid Hamelech davened for this- "shivti b'veis Hashem kol yemei chayai." Reb Aharon Kotler ztl spent his life replanting this concept on American soil.

These Kollel families, generally speaking, give up living a life of luxury, in order to sit in the tent of Torah. There are certainlt those in kollel who would be better off in the workplace, however, this is a minority. Maybe a visible minority, but nevertheless a minority.

I would challange most working men, to spend two weeks in the Beis Medrash. First seder, second seder and night seder, toiling in Torah. See if they can handle coming home eleven o'cklock at night, to begin taking care of the tzorchei habayis, going through the mail, openning bills with know idea how Hashem is planning on putting money in his account to pay them.

Most people would konk out, space out, and plotz after two days, guaranteed! ”

“ Mr. Goilem, I think your line of thinking is "very sad!"

Kollel men who truly learn all day- are "klei kodesh"!! The kedusha of learning- just for the sake of learning, protects the world. This is not a new concept. There were always those who "just learned" throughout the generations. Dovid Hamelech davened for this- "shivti b'veis Hashem kol yemei chayai." Reb Aharon Kotler ztl spent his life replanting this concept on American soil.

These Kollel families, generally speaking, give up living a life of luxury, in order to sit in the tent of Torah. There are certainlt those in kollel who would be better off in the workplace, however, this is a minority. Maybe a visible minority, but nevertheless a minority.

I would challange most working men, to spend two weeks in the Beis Medrash. First seder, second seder and night seder, toiling in Torah. See if they can handle coming home eleven o'cklock at night, to begin taking care of the tzorchei habayis, going through the mail, openning bills with know idea how Hashem is planning on putting money in his account to pay them.

Most people would konk out, space out, and plotz after two days, guaranteed! ”

“ to # 1 2 & 3,
dont be so moronic please! dont throw out the baby with the bathwater! of COURSE nobody should make unreasonable demands on prospective fathers in law, nor indeed demand a hefty price for their supposed genius, as the article outlines. if one wishes to 'stay in learning' for however long, one should be prepared to undergo some sort of sacrifice and mesirus nefesh for the privilege if necessary.
At the same time, as an ideal, if one is able to support ones son/daughter/son in law, of course one should do so. Just perhaps, that is the only reason Hashem gave you the money in the first instance? who is really supporting whom?? we will only find out in the Olom Ha'emes, when the holiday that was foregone is a distant memory, but the Torah that is eternal continues to provide Zechusim and protection for many generations.
whilst happy to condemn the supposed excessive demands made in some cases, lets not join the mindless 'go get a job brigade' as if that was tachlis hachayim!!! ”

“ Mr. Goilem, I think your line of thinking is "very sad!"

Kollel men who truly learn all day- are "klei kodesh"!! The kedusha of learning- just for the sake of learning, protects the world. This is not a new concept. There were always those who "just learned" throughout the generations. Dovid Hamelech davened for this- "shivti b'veis Hashem kol yemei chayai." Reb Aharon Kotler ztl spent his life replanting this concept on American soil.

These Kollel families, generally speaking, give up living a life of luxury, in order to sit in the tent of Torah. There are certainlt those in kollel who would be better off in the workplace, however, this is a minority. Maybe a visible minority, but nevertheless a minority.

I would challange most working men, to spend two weeks in the Beis Medrash. First seder, second seder and night seder, toiling in Torah. See if they can handle coming home eleven o'cklock at night, to begin taking care of the tzorchei habayis, going through the mail, openning bills with know idea how Hashem is planning on putting money in his account to pay them.

Most people would konk out, space out, and plotz after two days, guaranteed! ”

“ maybe he did not say Rabbi since Elyashiv does not seem to know basic halacha that one needs to work ”

“ How about get a job?

Didnt think of that one huh? Get a job? Save up? ...In the words of Ali G,

"Responsilibity" ”

“ That is not respectful. Notwithstanding his advanced age, the Rabbi still is highly regarded by many orthodox jews in Israel and many once regarded him as a gadol hador. ”

“ Chazal set the standards for funerals. They should do the same for weddings. This is disgusting and abhorrent. These people are acting like Hindus, with their obscenely sized dowries and huge weddings. Furthermore, let these slackers get a parnasa like the rest of us. ”

“ Not so long back there were indeed very strict rules regarding the size of weddings, value of gifts etc., in all kehillos in Germany, but not so strictly followed through in Eastern Europe, if I am not mistaken. The precedents exist - unless the Gedoilim have not learned their history :} . It would not take much to reintroduce them. However, as mentioned in Post #71, the problem with apartments is a nation-wide problem caused and perpetuated by the State itself. This not something the Gedoilim are going to realistically be expected to deal with. (And demanding that people go live on the West Bank, where the State is opening up more and more room for haredim, is a double-edged sword. They are deliberately putting the haredim in the most vulnerable position, in terms of both physical and financial security.) ”

“ Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos... The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you? ”