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Jerusalem - Woman Sprays Tear Gas at Orthodox Man in Bus Segregation Fracas

Published on: January 7, 2010 11:29 AM
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Jerusalem - A woman who boarded a bus designated for religious passengers sprayed tear gas at an Orthodox man who demanded she move to the rear section last week in Ashdod.

The incident began on Friday, when an 18-year-old Orthodox man noticed the woman, 60, sitting at the front of the bus on a route on which men and women are segregated for purposes of religious modesty.

The man objected to the woman’s seating location, and asked her to move to the back, police said, but she refused to budge.

The exchange quickly escalated into a confrontation, police said.

After being cursed at repeatedly, the woman told him to “shut up,” adding, “What do you care where I sit? So what if this is a religious bus? Nothing will happen if I sit at the front,” according to her police interrogation transcript.

The woman then sprayed tear gas “to scare the youth who was yelling at me,” she told officers.

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The bus driver stopped the vehicle, and opened the doors to air out the bus, while the young religious man called the police.

The woman was detained for questioning and released on bail. She is suspected of assault.



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Read Comments (93)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Tear gas isn't good, as it obviously affected other people on the bus. She should have used a stun gun on him.

2

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:49 AM Important question Says:

Will she get a refund for her bus fare?

3

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

I can't imagine the chutzpah for an 18 year old boy to ask a 60 woman to move to the back of the bus.....perhaps he should have mentioned something to the driver and let the driver intervene....

4

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:46 AM Anonymous Says:

I and thousands of other normal Yidden will glady contribute to this wonderful woman's legal defense fund.

5

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:45 AM shimon Says:

the man who cursed at the woman should also have been arrested.the article states that he cursed at her.

6

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:44 AM Cadd9 Says:

It pays to remember violence can go both ways.

7

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:40 AM Anonymous Says:

she is 60 for crying out loud. Derech Eretz kadmah LTorah, we need Moshiach NOW

8

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:

What gives an 18 year old man the right to curse or yell at a 60 year old woman? Is this what they are teaching young boys and men these days? I was brought up to offer your seat to a woman, particularly an older woman. Can someone explain again how this really shows respect for jewish woman. I don't agree with the pepper spray, but I can understand how this lady felt physically threatened by this hoodlum.

9

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Leave the innocent lady alone!

10

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:35 AM Anonymous Says:

This young chap clearly deserved it. Derech Eretz is paramount.

11

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:35 AM dave Says:

its about time some has to do it but a 60 year old

12

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:35 AM Anonymous Says:

this 18 year old should learn a little derech eretz

13

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:37 AM Anonymous Says:

I cant stand reading about these extremists.

This 18 yr old child got the wrong chinuch from a father and an educational system that is way off the mark. I thank H--shem every day that I live in the goldene madina!

14

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:54 AM Anonymous Says:

good for her. you gotta stand up to these thugs

15

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

The article calls him a "man." This nebech of a nebesh is a BOY.

16

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:00 PM formelly Says:

how could a 18 punk think he can scream at an elderly woman. I guess maybe where he lives either parents or yeshiva, that respect for the elderly if of a much more important issue than the stupid bus rule.

Wheil I think she was wrong to use the maze I do give her a thumbs up.

If this continues with the nuts and the buses I can see open warefare .

17

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:01 PM Anonymous Says:

While I am very uncomfortable with segregating the buses, if this was a "religious bus" and separate seating is required, why you coming to the defense of the women? Granted, I wouldnt want my 18 son to have the chutzpah to demand a 60 year person to change her seat, it doesnt take away the fact the women appeared to be provoking the fight in the first place. However, if the "religious buses" do not explicitly or implicitly require separate seating, then I agree with comments 3 and 4.

18

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:07 PM David Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

What gives an 18 year old man the right to curse or yell at a 60 year old woman? Is this what they are teaching young boys and men these days? I was brought up to offer your seat to a woman, particularly an older woman. Can someone explain again how this really shows respect for jewish woman. I don't agree with the pepper spray, but I can understand how this lady felt physically threatened by this hoodlum.

I agree. This "religious bus" business is utter nonsense, and it is an insult to a person to tell her that she needs to sit in the back. Moreover, there is absolutely no justification for an 18 year old man (much less an 18 year old religious Jewish man) to scream and curse at a woman old enough to be his grandmother based on where she chooses to sit. I'm also inclined to think that the pepper spray was too much, but, at the very least, this young man needed a potch in tuchus.

19

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

thats my lady you go girl.

20

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:10 PM Fred Says:

Personally, I think that anyone who cant sit next to a female needs serious therapy. But I have a solution that I think would meet everyone's needs (insane though they may be): Years ago, in Monsey I rode on a segregated bus that was split down the middle. Men on the right, women on the left. That way you avoid the bad vibes of "the back of the bus" and still get your charedi seperation so you can feel holy. I wonder if that would diffuse this. Someone should propose it. If the Charedim still insisted on the front/back thing then that would tell you something else is going on here too. Right?

21

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

Tear gas isn't good, as it obviously affected other people on the bus. She should have used a stun gun on him.

this is a MEHADRIN bus, she came up to fight.

what a shame.

if a chareidy would do that u would all come out of your caves

22

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:14 PM jerusalem Says:

Al eileh ani bochea... ;(

23

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:14 PM Anonymous Says:

he deserved it if he wouldn;t let her sit where she wanted.

24

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Why would an old woman have tear gas? Are you sure they didn't mean pepper spray?

25

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:16 PM Anonymous Says:

This lady is the Jewish ROSA PARKS.

26

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

While I am very uncomfortable with segregating the buses, if this was a "religious bus" and separate seating is required, why you coming to the defense of the women? Granted, I wouldnt want my 18 son to have the chutzpah to demand a 60 year person to change her seat, it doesnt take away the fact the women appeared to be provoking the fight in the first place. However, if the "religious buses" do not explicitly or implicitly require separate seating, then I agree with comments 3 and 4.

Wow, you really made no sense at all in your thoughtless comment.

27

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:19 PM Anonymous Says:

For people who are so homophobic they sure sound very gay to me.

28

 Jan 07, 2010 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

What a chutzpah of that lady! This was on a bus special for seperate seating, why does she come on this bus and not obey the rules? She could go on the reg. Bus and seat were she wants, she should get arrested and the keys placed in a storm drain

29

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:00 PM Anonymous Says:

What this woman did was a real kiddush hashem and she will be rewarded for standing up to the mindless and sexist chareidi efforts to impose chumrahs which have no basis in halacha. For generations our parents and grandparents were able to travel together on wagons and/or trains in Europe without separate seating. Rav Moshe, Z;tl, also said it was mutar for men an women to travel together on mass transit. But for these lunatics, thats not good enough.

30

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:02 PM Lawyer Says:

The whole story illustrates how lawless society is in Israel. If the offical policy is that this bus is a "mehadrin" bus which is segregated, then that should be obeyed. At the same time, the reaction of the young man is despicable.

31

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:02 PM chosid Says:

why dont you guys understand why he did it he did it because she was 60 if the case would be with a young 18 year old lady that guy would not have any problem with her he just wanted to make room for somebody closer to his age and he didnt mean frumkite at all

32

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:05 PM boro park Says:

The lady obviosly came for a fight, for why did she have the pepper spray, which 60 year old women walks around with pepper spray? But on the other hand I would not want my son to be this 18 year old. He was wrong for yelling and cursing her, he should have asked the driver to intrvene or he could have asked her nicely (it takes two to tango) she got what she deserves, and he will probably end up in prison one day for assulting someone else.
When will we learn to teach our children better chinuch????

33

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:17 PM Steve Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

this is a MEHADRIN bus, she came up to fight.

what a shame.

if a chareidy would do that u would all come out of your caves

I'd like you to know that the word Mehandrin is offensive in this context. "Mehadrin" implies a higher standard. As in Kashrut... Kosher is good but "Mehadrin Kosher" is better, right? But sorry, it is not self evident that seperate seating is "better". You are assuming this. The real reality is that normal, healthy people should not have an issue sitting next to the opposite gender. This is part of life. There is no Mehadrin about it. This nonsense is not something to aspire to. I propose we call this something else: "Taliban seating"

34

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:18 PM Harav Hagaon Says:

By spraying tear gas on a bus she assaulted every person on the bus including the driver.

That stuff gets around, I can tell you from experience having once used it on someone who assaulted me.

Amazing how everyone can stick up for the woman because she was fighting the "chareidim," and overlook her disgusting behavior.

Notice she is the one being charged with a crime. Being cursed at is not a reason to assault people.

It would appear to me she came looking for a fight.

35

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:24 PM ChelmiTe Says:

She should be given a life time bus pass for free rides on Arab buses. If she cannot respect the protocal on a Charedi Bus she
shouldn't ride on them.

36

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:32 PM Babishka Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

This lady is the Jewish ROSA PARKS.

No this lady is not Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks did not attack anyone with pepper spray. I don't think the "Macing Granny" deserves a medal. I am 60 years old and walk with a cane, and I don't like sitting at the back of the bus. If some young yutz told me to move, I can give him a manah in his own loshon. But that is not a reason to harm everyone else on the bus.

37

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

I can't imagine the chutzpah for an 18 year old boy to ask a 60 woman to move to the back of the bus.....perhaps he should have mentioned something to the driver and let the driver intervene....

The article explicitly says that the incident took place in a "Bus designated for religious passengers." This woman should have respected this fact, she was in the wrong. The article also says that "The man . . . asked her to move to the back, but she refused to budge." She boarded the bus with the intent to cause a dispute, the fact that she carried and used the tear gas only proves this point. She knowingly sat down in the mens section, and was aware that it will cause a brawl, and should be charges with assault.

38

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Leave the innocent lady alone!

She is not innocent, she know this will happen. This is what she wanted.

39

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Steve Says:

I'd like you to know that the word Mehandrin is offensive in this context. "Mehadrin" implies a higher standard. As in Kashrut... Kosher is good but "Mehadrin Kosher" is better, right? But sorry, it is not self evident that seperate seating is "better". You are assuming this. The real reality is that normal, healthy people should not have an issue sitting next to the opposite gender. This is part of life. There is no Mehadrin about it. This nonsense is not something to aspire to. I propose we call this something else: "Taliban seating"

mehadrin means more beautiful. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. to the charadim seperate seating is a more beautiful way of serving hashem. there is nothing wrong with these bus lines, she was wrong for forcing what she wanted in a place where she shouldn't have been. that said, he should have just let it be, that kind of reaction never gets anywhere.

40

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:44 PM dave Says:

some fight a 60 year old vs a 18 year old why no one came to help the we will never know but we do know we all should know better we are jews we can only do what we can do love all jews

41

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:46 PM BinderDundat Says:

I have a question for the majority of the chumtra-ists that post here, I am sure than the majority of you are descendants of holocaust survivors, as I did. While growing up, I never heard one of these people complain about men and women sitting together on a bus or subway or any form of public transit. Not only that, but I was brought up that I was to give my seat to an elderly person, jewish or not. That is simple derech eretz, which as most people know, is kadma letorah.
Do these hoodlums think they are better than the poor souls that lived through the hell of the nazis or more frum than them? My parents were thankful just to get a seat, forget who was sitting next to them. What kind of chutzpa do they have to even demand separate seating buses? is is halacha? absolutely not. Just our society getting sicker and sicker by the day. A message to our yeshivas, keep raising these boys this way. You will reap what you sow. As it is, these young men are completely illiterate nowadays. Since they have no clue what derech eretz is, their learning is worthless.

42

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:51 PM Commentator Says:

Great comment, #4. you are one of the few commentators on this page with some brain cells.

43

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Fred Says:

Personally, I think that anyone who cant sit next to a female needs serious therapy. But I have a solution that I think would meet everyone's needs (insane though they may be): Years ago, in Monsey I rode on a segregated bus that was split down the middle. Men on the right, women on the left. That way you avoid the bad vibes of "the back of the bus" and still get your charedi seperation so you can feel holy. I wonder if that would diffuse this. Someone should propose it. If the Charedim still insisted on the front/back thing then that would tell you something else is going on here too. Right?

I hate to tell you how often I have been pushed and shoved from the other side of the curtains. I think the curtains caused more averos than sitting on separate sides without a mechitza

45

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Sometimes there are only mehadrin buses to the locations you need to go. She might not have had any options. A 60 year old lady might not have been able to walk to the back of the bus-many times the front can be lowered but not the back.
She might not have purposely tried to go against the "rules", however demeaning they may be. Why cant the men sit in the back? Why cant they sit left vs. right like on many "mehadrin private buses" in America? This was a public bus run by the government!!
Oh, an for those who complained about why she had pepper spray, she might have had it to protect herself from hooligans, like this boy will grow up to be. Someone wants to pickpocket her- she is allowed to carry pepper spray!
What is with the boy's chinnuch? why be on a mehadrin bus if you aren't at least minimal in your middos?

46

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

mehadrin means more beautiful. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. to the charadim seperate seating is a more beautiful way of serving hashem. there is nothing wrong with these bus lines, she was wrong for forcing what she wanted in a place where she shouldn't have been. that said, he should have just let it be, that kind of reaction never gets anywhere.

You know, this is important. Its a loaded term. In Kashrut, everyone agrees that Glatt is better then not-Glatt. Its just a question of whether thats necessary -- if I'm chayav to have that admittedly higher standard. But the fact that its a higher standard really is not in dispute. Same thing with say, Yoshon vs Chodosh or Chalav Yisrael vs Chalav Stam. There are valid Halachic arguments as to why each of these higher standards is a good thing. . But my claim is that that is *not* the case here. This seating thing has no valid Halachic foundation. Just because you are not grown up enough to sit comfortably next to the opposite gender doesnt mean there is a holy duty involved.

47

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:24 PM shmielu Says:

Reply to #41  
BinderDundat Says:

I have a question for the majority of the chumtra-ists that post here, I am sure than the majority of you are descendants of holocaust survivors, as I did. While growing up, I never heard one of these people complain about men and women sitting together on a bus or subway or any form of public transit. Not only that, but I was brought up that I was to give my seat to an elderly person, jewish or not. That is simple derech eretz, which as most people know, is kadma letorah.
Do these hoodlums think they are better than the poor souls that lived through the hell of the nazis or more frum than them? My parents were thankful just to get a seat, forget who was sitting next to them. What kind of chutzpa do they have to even demand separate seating buses? is is halacha? absolutely not. Just our society getting sicker and sicker by the day. A message to our yeshivas, keep raising these boys this way. You will reap what you sow. As it is, these young men are completely illiterate nowadays. Since they have no clue what derech eretz is, their learning is worthless.

i cant put it into words how true youre words are beutifully written the whole truth as i always say the middle way in life is the right way its called beininis anything in extreeme is harmfull to us just lok at iran were the fanatical religious muhlas are terrorizing the whole country and have the oddesity the threaten israels exisstance has veshalum if that happens in israel we are doomed

48

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:32 PM AP Says:

On one hand you have a chutzpadik 18 yr. old looser, and on the other you have a 60 yr. old chiloni, anti-jewish, secular zionist scum. One thing they had in common-- they were both looking for a fight.

49

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

What gives an 18 year old man the right to curse or yell at a 60 year old woman? Is this what they are teaching young boys and men these days? I was brought up to offer your seat to a woman, particularly an older woman. Can someone explain again how this really shows respect for jewish woman. I don't agree with the pepper spray, but I can understand how this lady felt physically threatened by this hoodlum.

Yeah! She says she was cursed at and you're all jumping on the guy. You believe her?

50

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:41 PM MS Says:

The woman had no right sitting in the front if it is designated for men, I dont like the rules either, but I wouldnt disobey. If I dont like it I dont ride that type of bus service. If she sat there because she had problems walking to far to the back, then she could have asked permission to sit there. But it is not the boys place to tell her off. That is pure chutzpa and he completely missed the point of segregated seating for tznius reasons and made a huge chilul Hashem. (though he doesnt deserve pepper spray, maybe a zets would have been better haha)

51

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:42 PM Calm down everybody Says:

No.17&no;.28 are totaly right you americans dont seem to get it if there is a rule calling to separate the bus because on the other busses you have these israely biches going around siting davke next to chasideshe boys so when you finally have such a rule you try to support it not the other way around

52

 Jan 07, 2010 at 02:52 PM Aharon Says:

Elderly women carry pepper spray in case they get mugged by a thug - which she did.

53

 Jan 07, 2010 at 03:05 PM Anonymous Says:

This is the first story on VIN that made me smile today.

54

 Jan 07, 2010 at 03:20 PM Anonymous Says:

All those who agree with this young punk should be given a one way ticket to the place they belong---Afghanistan.

55

 Jan 07, 2010 at 03:26 PM BinderDundat Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

Yeah! She says she was cursed at and you're all jumping on the guy. You believe her?

Yes I do believe her! anytime before and 18 year old mechutzaph who knows nothing about derech eretz. His only education consists of these meshugane chumras. The sad thing is that you believe him. Doesnt say much for your seichel either. True what they say. Sense is not Common.

56

 Jan 07, 2010 at 03:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

You know, this is important. Its a loaded term. In Kashrut, everyone agrees that Glatt is better then not-Glatt. Its just a question of whether thats necessary -- if I'm chayav to have that admittedly higher standard. But the fact that its a higher standard really is not in dispute. Same thing with say, Yoshon vs Chodosh or Chalav Yisrael vs Chalav Stam. There are valid Halachic arguments as to why each of these higher standards is a good thing. . But my claim is that that is *not* the case here. This seating thing has no valid Halachic foundation. Just because you are not grown up enough to sit comfortably next to the opposite gender doesnt mean there is a holy duty involved.

that is a very narrow way of looking at it. Halacha is everything to you and me, but there are other people who recognize that every action even if mutar does have an affect. if someone is on the level that there neshama is affected from sitting next to the opposite gender then why should we disregaurd that. (clearly not the case for this boy)

57

 Jan 07, 2010 at 03:52 PM dizzyIzzy Says:

I wish she would have sprayed him with a hungry pit bull.

59

 Jan 07, 2010 at 04:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

that is a very narrow way of looking at it. Halacha is everything to you and me, but there are other people who recognize that every action even if mutar does have an affect. if someone is on the level that there neshama is affected from sitting next to the opposite gender then why should we disregaurd that. (clearly not the case for this boy)

I have to laugh at you and the other commentors who want it both ways. Saying in effect it's okay, but not how the boy did it. You are all being very disingenuous.

60

 Jan 07, 2010 at 04:14 PM yerushalmi Says:

It was a bus strictly designated for seperate seating and the woman came there looking for a fight. Otherwise on request she would have moved. The young man did first speak to her politely and she refused.
What would you say if a 60 year old woman came to the men's side in a shul. or at a wedding or at the Kottel or at a levayoh and refused to move. She asked for it She got it. She was the Chatzufoh and the young man was right. This is the only language these Israeli chatzufos understand.

61

 Jan 07, 2010 at 04:38 PM BinderDundat Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

that is a very narrow way of looking at it. Halacha is everything to you and me, but there are other people who recognize that every action even if mutar does have an affect. if someone is on the level that there neshama is affected from sitting next to the opposite gender then why should we disregaurd that. (clearly not the case for this boy)

Frankly, if any 18 year old is affected by a 60 year old woman, he has other major problems. Not only should he not be on a bus, he should not be walking on any public street.
This is almost as stupid as the big furor over the sheitel store pictures across the street from Chaim Berlin which was turned into a boycott. Chamoirishe Chumras.

62

 Jan 07, 2010 at 04:45 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #34  
Harav Hagaon Says:

By spraying tear gas on a bus she assaulted every person on the bus including the driver.

That stuff gets around, I can tell you from experience having once used it on someone who assaulted me.

Amazing how everyone can stick up for the woman because she was fighting the "chareidim," and overlook her disgusting behavior.

Notice she is the one being charged with a crime. Being cursed at is not a reason to assault people.

It would appear to me she came looking for a fight.

Suffice to say that she did come prepared, but the question should be peppered for what? I would venture to say that if a woman has in her possession pepper spray or the likes it is for protection, not for the purpose of instigating a fight, except if the first moment of the demand to move to back she pulled out the spray, and then I would agree that she was looking for a fight. Taking that in consideration yes she did something which might be illegal, as long it could be proving that the 18 year old was not intimidating if she could argue that in her mind she felt threatened she will be able to use this defense. The bottom line we should send some money for her defense, and counter sue for assaulting her verbally, without good cause.

63

 Jan 07, 2010 at 05:06 PM Anonymous Says:

When these religious men are out in public do they have separate sidewalks?? Nobody is going to make way for them!! They are just other men wearing pants who happen to be religious!! If they want a charedi bus and an old lady sits down in the wrong place, TOUGH!! She is 60!! The kid is 18, still wet behind the ears, and still has to learn the manners that he was no taught at home!! If she sprayed him, chances are, she was treated like that before, and did not want to be manhandled again!! Yes she sure is the Jewish Rosa Parks!! Kol HaKavod!! She also is trying to tell the charedi community to STOP manhandling OLD LADIES!! Her method may not have been the best, but what was she supposed to do?? Put yourself in her shoes!! I hope VIN posts this!!

64

 Jan 07, 2010 at 05:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
AP Says:

On one hand you have a chutzpadik 18 yr. old looser, and on the other you have a 60 yr. old chiloni, anti-jewish, secular zionist scum. One thing they had in common-- they were both looking for a fight.

how do you know her haskafa? just because she wanted to sit?

65

 Jan 07, 2010 at 05:34 PM Anonymous Says:

They were both wrong. She came looking for a fight and the big baby wanted to have one. He should have told the bus driver but whatever. When I go on the Monsey bus, the men bump me through the curtain. I think the men should sit in the back and the women in the front. The day we start that there will be no more problems. Such a simple solution.

66

 Jan 07, 2010 at 05:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Fred Says:

Personally, I think that anyone who cant sit next to a female needs serious therapy. But I have a solution that I think would meet everyone's needs (insane though they may be): Years ago, in Monsey I rode on a segregated bus that was split down the middle. Men on the right, women on the left. That way you avoid the bad vibes of "the back of the bus" and still get your charedi seperation so you can feel holy. I wonder if that would diffuse this. Someone should propose it. If the Charedim still insisted on the front/back thing then that would tell you something else is going on here too. Right?

Are you kidding?? It was precisely on that bus, on the only ride I ever took, due to the very narrow walkway, that I bumped into some lady on the other side -- which never happened before or since.

67

 Jan 07, 2010 at 05:34 PM formelly Says:

First I think this whole separate buss issue is nonsense my parents and grand parents came from Munkahz and they never heard of such a a think. Even the weddings were not as segregated as today

why don't the men sit in the back?

Also why not make a few sits in the front mixed for the elderly, the front is easier to get on and off than the back.

If I had to go to the back I would want a discount.

68

 Jan 07, 2010 at 06:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
Anonymous Says:

I have to laugh at you and the other commentors who want it both ways. Saying in effect it's okay, but not how the boy did it. You are all being very disingenuous.

i was saying that having seperate sections on the bus is ok, not what he did.

69

 Jan 07, 2010 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:

I had the dubious honor of riding a bus from Y'lem to Bnai Brak for the Naroler Hacnosas Sefer Torah. Boarding the bus we were crowded out by the most thuggish hoodlums ever seen, all in the clothing of frum people.
Unless you experience these behemahs first hand you can not understand what made this lady use the mace spray. I imagine I understand.

70

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:31 PM Babishka Says:

I rode the bus from Jerusalem to Tzefat and this Yid was hyperventilating that he didn't want to sit "between two women" meaning, there was a woman in the row in front of him and in the row behind!

I agreed to change seats with him at the rest stop since we were all getting off the bus anyway, but I made him carry my laptop to the other seat.

Being myself a 60-year-old Bubbie, if some grubber yung started cussing at me I would cuss back, and then maybe beat him with my cane.

71

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Sometimes there are only mehadrin buses to the locations you need to go. She might not have had any options. A 60 year old lady might not have been able to walk to the back of the bus-many times the front can be lowered but not the back.
She might not have purposely tried to go against the "rules", however demeaning they may be. Why cant the men sit in the back? Why cant they sit left vs. right like on many "mehadrin private buses" in America? This was a public bus run by the government!!
Oh, an for those who complained about why she had pepper spray, she might have had it to protect herself from hooligans, like this boy will grow up to be. Someone wants to pickpocket her- she is allowed to carry pepper spray!
What is with the boy's chinnuch? why be on a mehadrin bus if you aren't at least minimal in your middos?

Or maybe she has it to protect against Arabs who are being very aggressive towards Jewish women in some places. Also, some of these bus drivers need lessons in how to drive and treat the elderly. They will start off before the person even gets to a seat. We Israelis carry groceries, take "schleppers' Onto buses, use canes to walk and at 60 plus some of us just aren't steady on our feet. Even my 50 something husband has had problems and Iv'e seen young people fall because of the driving. Maybe she just couldn't make it to the back right away.
I have been rudely treated by "religious" men just trying to walk on a sidewalk in Jerusalem. It's funny these things don't happen in Tiberias. A guy in a knit kippah, who wasn't younger than I offered me his seat the moment I got on the bus the other day. Unfortunately the rudeness seems to come from one segment of the "tribe."

72

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:33 PM No He Makes PERFECT SENSE Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

Wow, you really made no sense at all in your thoughtless comment.

The article was written up by the Jerusalem Post. If you know anything about the post you'd know they are strongly anti Chareidi. It is a secular paper. In all articles regarding chareidi protests and the like the tone is generally anti charedi. For some reason this article comes off in defense of the boy and against the woman and I applaud them for it. She was being inciteful and trying to instigate. She KNEW she was on a bus designated for religious passengers and sat there anyways. She was looking for a fight as is clearly evidenced by her replies to the boy and by her criminally violent act of spraying him with tear gas. (Which 60 year old woman has tear gas its what the police and military use to disperse a rioting crowd!!!!) I agree that this 18 year old boy needs to be taught some respect but I can't believe you guys are ganging up on him. There's a lot of anti Chareidi bias in these responses that shock me.

73

 Jan 07, 2010 at 01:38 PM Maskim! Says:

Reply to #34  
Harav Hagaon Says:

By spraying tear gas on a bus she assaulted every person on the bus including the driver.

That stuff gets around, I can tell you from experience having once used it on someone who assaulted me.

Amazing how everyone can stick up for the woman because she was fighting the "chareidim," and overlook her disgusting behavior.

Notice she is the one being charged with a crime. Being cursed at is not a reason to assault people.

It would appear to me she came looking for a fight.

Finally the people with sechel show up! This woman is clearly messed up. Which 60 year old woman goes on a bus with tear gas looking for a fight? I hope she learns her lesson and they confiscate the tear gas. She attacked a whole busload of people. You have any clue what tear gas does in a confined space? Its used by commandos and riot police!

74

 Jan 07, 2010 at 03:41 PM Opposite reaction Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

This is the first story on VIN that made me smile today.

This makes me want to cry. If the young don't respect the old and the old assault a bus with tear gas how can Moshiach come?! The only way Moshiach will come is with Veahavta Lereyecha Kamocha! Enough of the us against them mentality between Frum people and less Frum/secular.

75

 Jan 07, 2010 at 08:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Who said he is 18 maybe he is 45 and she is 55
Besides we don't know for a fact that he cursed her its only her words
But I have soon a person 50 year old cursing at woman for going in from the front door so I know it can happen

76

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:04 PM Robert Says:

this nonsense both ways needs to stop
we need mutual respect and if these buses are going to exist ( i personally think its a terrible idea) then the driver needs to enforce the regulation and not drive until the issue is resolved of who sits where..

on the other hand if these arrogances continue and i suspect they were both arrogant.. then things will escalate and next time the grandma will pull out a firearm to protect herself .. this needs to be prevented.

77

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

What a chutzpah of that lady! This was on a bus special for seperate seating, why does she come on this bus and not obey the rules? She could go on the reg. Bus and seat were she wants, she should get arrested and the keys placed in a storm drain

Ask a better question. WHO made the rules? Are they listed on the bus? Is the bus driver supposed to, or allowed to say these rules or is it marked "mehadrin" on the bus by EGED and therefore EVERYONE is supposed to know the rules and abide by them? Was this 60 year old lady supposed to wait for the bus to pass and wait for the next one? What if she was on the way to the back of the bus and lost her balance and touched this same boy by accident would he have reacted so violently as well? Probably, because he was too full of himself and had no derech eretz for the elderly woman.

What if it was his grandmother, would he have yelled at her to go to the back of the bus? Would he have stood by and allowed someone else to yell at her? When these righteous men get off the bus and go into a makolet (store) do they run to the other side if there are women in the store or on line to pay? Do they insist that there be a separate line for men and women at the cashier? What about at the bank? Do they allow a woman to get ahead of them so they don't stand between two women?

78

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

What a chutzpah of that lady! This was on a bus special for seperate seating, why does she come on this bus and not obey the rules? She could go on the reg. Bus and seat were she wants, she should get arrested and the keys placed in a storm drain

I have been to many weddings where the men and women have been totally separated and everyone looked so frum and tznius. Then when it came to getting their coats from the one coat room, the men were pushing and shoving like animals, literally animals. I actually said out loud "so this is why we need a mechitza, you crush us without one!" With that a few of the men caught themselves and pulled back from the crowd of mixed men and women. Why couldn't they maintain and invisible mechitza? If these men would have chosen to move to one side instead of pushing to get their coats first, they would have ended the night in the same vein that it started. But when it came to convenience the rules were blown out of the water.

I say the same with the buses. If they want the separation the men should go to the back of the bus and stop the controversy.

79

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:47 PM Anonymous Says:

i am proud of the woman. my 80 year old mother in law has trouble walking and also gets dizzy. if she sat in the front of the bus and an 18 year old stinker told her to move to the back she would probably cry and get up to move only to possibly fall.
our elders, male and female deserve respect and the young should have been taught that.
honor thy mother and thy father does not apply directly to parents only. it is for all who are older.
personally, one should be considerate of their own ages as well.

80

 Jan 08, 2010 at 08:43 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

What a chutzpah of that lady! This was on a bus special for seperate seating, why does she come on this bus and not obey the rules? She could go on the reg. Bus and seat were she wants, she should get arrested and the keys placed in a storm drain

"That woman" and every chiloni woman I will free of charge supp;ly with pepper spray so the can immobilize these wilde chayes

81

 Jan 08, 2010 at 01:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

I have been to many weddings where the men and women have been totally separated and everyone looked so frum and tznius. Then when it came to getting their coats from the one coat room, the men were pushing and shoving like animals, literally animals. I actually said out loud "so this is why we need a mechitza, you crush us without one!" With that a few of the men caught themselves and pulled back from the crowd of mixed men and women. Why couldn't they maintain and invisible mechitza? If these men would have chosen to move to one side instead of pushing to get their coats first, they would have ended the night in the same vein that it started. But when it came to convenience the rules were blown out of the water.

I say the same with the buses. If they want the separation the men should go to the back of the bus and stop the controversy.

This whole separation thing is not only wanted by chareidi men, its also wanted by chareidi women, so when you say "if they want the separation the men should go to the back" you're wrong because its not the men who want this, its the rabonim who asked for it and their followers want it.

82

 Jan 08, 2010 at 04:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

What this woman did was a real kiddush hashem and she will be rewarded for standing up to the mindless and sexist chareidi efforts to impose chumrahs which have no basis in halacha. For generations our parents and grandparents were able to travel together on wagons and/or trains in Europe without separate seating. Rav Moshe, Z;tl, also said it was mutar for men an women to travel together on mass transit. But for these lunatics, thats not good enough.

Right, except that you think that's it's muter lichatchilah without any problem what so ever, and the man that wrote the shailah understood that there are several problems in halacha which it why it was necessary to ask. Because the rules of dress and behaviour have changed in the last 30 years, I'm still not so certain that R' Moshe z"l would answer the same as he did back then. l'm also sure that your grandparents probably has a much different mind set than you do. Do you also demand that your wife cover her hair like women did in Europe or do you rely on Reb Moshe's heter together with a Chazon Ish's' tefach? The woman clearly violated the bus rules, she sprayed the boy to "scare him" not in defence because she felt threatened, she committed assault on Chareidi boy. Now reverse the roles. An 18 year old goes a on a chiloni bus and demands that a 60 year old women sit in back. She sprays him again you cheer. So according to you, right and wrong is not determined by the rules of the bus or halacha, it determined by affiliation. Chareidim are wrong and then maybe we'll look at the facts too. The woman deliberately picked a fight and the driver should have thrown her off.

83

 Jan 08, 2010 at 05:03 AM me Says:

Reply to #74  
Opposite reaction Says:

This makes me want to cry. If the young don't respect the old and the old assault a bus with tear gas how can Moshiach come?! The only way Moshiach will come is with Veahavta Lereyecha Kamocha! Enough of the us against them mentality between Frum people and less Frum/secular.

It makes me happy. It's in the braiseh in the end of Soitah talking about the time preceding the era of Moshiach. "The young will embarass the old." I translate it as follows: Where as the alteh zaidehs and bubbas are frei Amaratzim, the young generation knows the halachah and stands up for it, thus embarassing the old by revealing that they are in complete violation.

84

 Jan 08, 2010 at 07:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
BinderDundat Says:

I have a question for the majority of the chumtra-ists that post here, I am sure than the majority of you are descendants of holocaust survivors, as I did. While growing up, I never heard one of these people complain about men and women sitting together on a bus or subway or any form of public transit. Not only that, but I was brought up that I was to give my seat to an elderly person, jewish or not. That is simple derech eretz, which as most people know, is kadma letorah.
Do these hoodlums think they are better than the poor souls that lived through the hell of the nazis or more frum than them? My parents were thankful just to get a seat, forget who was sitting next to them. What kind of chutzpa do they have to even demand separate seating buses? is is halacha? absolutely not. Just our society getting sicker and sicker by the day. A message to our yeshivas, keep raising these boys this way. You will reap what you sow. As it is, these young men are completely illiterate nowadays. Since they have no clue what derech eretz is, their learning is worthless.

I agree with you completely and I think and hope that some rabbi's will read this and teach their pupils how they have to behave and have respect for everybody. Its not the boy's fault he was acting this way. Probably his parents sent him very young to a yeshiva, so they didnt have to educate him and to teach him respect for everybody.

85

 Jan 08, 2010 at 09:11 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
BinderDundat Says:

I have a question for the majority of the chumtra-ists that post here, I am sure than the majority of you are descendants of holocaust survivors, as I did. While growing up, I never heard one of these people complain about men and women sitting together on a bus or subway or any form of public transit. Not only that, but I was brought up that I was to give my seat to an elderly person, jewish or not. That is simple derech eretz, which as most people know, is kadma letorah.
Do these hoodlums think they are better than the poor souls that lived through the hell of the nazis or more frum than them? My parents were thankful just to get a seat, forget who was sitting next to them. What kind of chutzpa do they have to even demand separate seating buses? is is halacha? absolutely not. Just our society getting sicker and sicker by the day. A message to our yeshivas, keep raising these boys this way. You will reap what you sow. As it is, these young men are completely illiterate nowadays. Since they have no clue what derech eretz is, their learning is worthless.

Kol Hakovod to you. I am a survivor and that is how I raised my son and daughter. As a little boy in Vienna in the street car if there was an elderly non-Jewish standing and I did not get up my mother A'H poked me to get up . Yes derech eretz kodom latorath, not anymore , v'yokom melech chodosh

86

 Jan 08, 2010 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #67  
formelly Says:

First I think this whole separate buss issue is nonsense my parents and grand parents came from Munkahz and they never heard of such a a think. Even the weddings were not as segregated as today

why don't the men sit in the back?

Also why not make a few sits in the front mixed for the elderly, the front is easier to get on and off than the back.

If I had to go to the back I would want a discount.

It's better the men don't sit in the back, since they can't control themselves apparently and only think of one thing they would be staring at the women the whole ride.

87

 Jan 08, 2010 at 10:10 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

Right, except that you think that's it's muter lichatchilah without any problem what so ever, and the man that wrote the shailah understood that there are several problems in halacha which it why it was necessary to ask. Because the rules of dress and behaviour have changed in the last 30 years, I'm still not so certain that R' Moshe z"l would answer the same as he did back then. l'm also sure that your grandparents probably has a much different mind set than you do. Do you also demand that your wife cover her hair like women did in Europe or do you rely on Reb Moshe's heter together with a Chazon Ish's' tefach? The woman clearly violated the bus rules, she sprayed the boy to "scare him" not in defence because she felt threatened, she committed assault on Chareidi boy. Now reverse the roles. An 18 year old goes a on a chiloni bus and demands that a 60 year old women sit in back. She sprays him again you cheer. So according to you, right and wrong is not determined by the rules of the bus or halacha, it determined by affiliation. Chareidim are wrong and then maybe we'll look at the facts too. The woman deliberately picked a fight and the driver should have thrown her off.

You are an amoretz gomer. I was born and raised in Europe and a survivor with erliche children. Not every woman covered her hair but every man , [at least the ones I came in contact] had derech eretz for other people, including the Czortkover Rebbe tzichus yuguleine. Keep quite unless you know what your are talking and you certainly. You quote but the world [Europe ] did not live accordingly even shomer shabbes

88

 Jan 08, 2010 at 10:45 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

Right, except that you think that's it's muter lichatchilah without any problem what so ever, and the man that wrote the shailah understood that there are several problems in halacha which it why it was necessary to ask. Because the rules of dress and behaviour have changed in the last 30 years, I'm still not so certain that R' Moshe z"l would answer the same as he did back then. l'm also sure that your grandparents probably has a much different mind set than you do. Do you also demand that your wife cover her hair like women did in Europe or do you rely on Reb Moshe's heter together with a Chazon Ish's' tefach? The woman clearly violated the bus rules, she sprayed the boy to "scare him" not in defence because she felt threatened, she committed assault on Chareidi boy. Now reverse the roles. An 18 year old goes a on a chiloni bus and demands that a 60 year old women sit in back. She sprays him again you cheer. So according to you, right and wrong is not determined by the rules of the bus or halacha, it determined by affiliation. Chareidim are wrong and then maybe we'll look at the facts too. The woman deliberately picked a fight and the driver should have thrown her off.

To quell your mind. In Europe woemn who did not cover their hair baked and cooked for chosons annd kallahs so they have a nice seudah at a wedding, There were not so many caterers. Before channuka they bought and collected clothig for poor children so they have clothing and channuka gifts. The cooked for women who were widowed and prepared a shabbes meal. See you don't know this Yiddishkeit and never will know because you are wrapped up in the sheitel and black hat

89

 Jan 08, 2010 at 11:28 AM Yankee Says:

If this 60 year old woman was my mother, I would find this 18 year old man and break both his legs.

90

 Jan 08, 2010 at 11:52 AM anonymous Says:

I have a friend who is physical therapist and every time he visits Eeretz Yisroel he visits the rehabilitation[physical] departments of the Tel Hashomer and Rambam hospital in Haifa. He told me that their rehabilitation departments are more advanced in treatment of paraplegics and others mained in the war. I guess these former IDF soldiers fought so frume skutzim push around old Jewish women. This is ahavas yisroel

91

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
yerushalmi Says:

It was a bus strictly designated for seperate seating and the woman came there looking for a fight. Otherwise on request she would have moved. The young man did first speak to her politely and she refused.
What would you say if a 60 year old woman came to the men's side in a shul. or at a wedding or at the Kottel or at a levayoh and refused to move. She asked for it She got it. She was the Chatzufoh and the young man was right. This is the only language these Israeli chatzufos understand.

Nothing, I would say nothing if a 60 year old bubby came to the men's side in a shul, or at a wedding, or at a levayoh! I would be smart enough to move out of her way and shut up!!!

92

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
Anonymous Says:

This whole separation thing is not only wanted by chareidi men, its also wanted by chareidi women, so when you say "if they want the separation the men should go to the back" you're wrong because its not the men who want this, its the rabonim who asked for it and their followers want it.

Then the "Rabbonim" should remind ALL that Derech Eretz Kadmah l'Torah, and they should ask the men to sit in the back since the younger women are pregnant or carrying babies, packages and strollers, and older women have trouble walking and balancing as well. Men can either get on in the back or walk to the back. And since a young woman would never have the nerve to speak up or confront an elderly man who chose to sit in the front of the bus, it would work out much better for all concerned.

93

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:34 PM formelly Says:

I went to a surgeon yesterday for an appointment, their I saw an heridie woman sitting (i could not believe my eyes) next to her son about 14-15 years old. can you believe that, that there many empty sets so the boy could have sat a few sits form his mother.

I was going to scream, have you not heard about separate seating even for mothers and sons.

I was going to say something but stop, first let hashem deal with such vile people second I did not want them to send me to the psychiatric ward.

This whole issue is stupid and there is no sane or halacha reason for it, except it g
ive those robonum more control over their sheep. They want to control their sheep 24/7 365 days

94

 Jan 08, 2010 at 01:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
anonymous Says:

To quell your mind. In Europe woemn who did not cover their hair baked and cooked for chosons annd kallahs so they have a nice seudah at a wedding, There were not so many caterers. Before channuka they bought and collected clothig for poor children so they have clothing and channuka gifts. The cooked for women who were widowed and prepared a shabbes meal. See you don't know this Yiddishkeit and never will know because you are wrapped up in the sheitel and black hat

The funny thing is you probably just described HIS own great grandparents!

95

 Jan 08, 2010 at 01:58 PM BinderDundat Says:

The fact that ANYONE defends this shaygetz shows just how sad a state we are in. Rabbunim?? Where?? Who do you think this bum learned it from? The Rabbunim that teach these boys have no right to call themselves Rabbunim. If they have no derech eretz, where will the boys learn from? Can't be the parents, once they hit 13 years old, the parents never see them again. Shachris, Yeshiva, Mishmor, etc. They come home to sleep.

96

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