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Jerusalem - VIN Exclusive - Rav Shternbuch: Airport Full Body Scans Kosher

Published on: January 7, 2010 06:02 PM
By: VIN News By Rabbi Yair Hoffman
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Jerusalem - Rav Moshe Shternbuch Shlita was asked whether it was breach of Tznius to pass through a full body scan machine at the airport.  There are
two types of full body scan machines that are commercially available for airports to purchase.  One type utilizes software to obscure the face and specific body parts, the other type has no such software.
Rav Shternbuch responded that, fact, he did not see a problem with it, neither for men nor for women.  A Talmid Chochom who was present when
the Shailah was posed explained that he understood Rav Shternbuch to mean that since the person manning the machine was “osaik bemelachto” it would not cause hirhurim, and there would be no Lifnei Iver violation on the part of the person undergoing the scan. 

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The situation is analgous to that of a doctor examining a patient and there would be no distinction as to whether the issue was a medical issue or a security issue.  The person undergoing the scan is not doing anything wrong.
The Talmid Chochom explained that there would also be no obligation to cancel a trip and not travel because of the body scan.  The reason is
that there is an essential heter of Osaik beMelachto.


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Read Comments (74)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jan 07, 2010 at 06:20 PM harry Says:

yeah because the idiot who the best job he could find was to work in an airport will definantly be "so busy" doing his work he won't have time to kook at the x-rays. I wouldn't be surprised if there suddenly was a large rise in interest for this new job!!

2

 Jan 07, 2010 at 06:24 PM Brisker chussid Says:

Not maskim i am not flying anymore pushit pretzoos

3

 Jan 07, 2010 at 06:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Good to know. I was wondering about the issue.

4

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:00 PM Anonymous Says:

I'm glad a posek addressed this issue. The pictures, as they appear online, are not all that explicit. They look like an x-ray, that's it. You basically see a mere figure.

5

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:01 PM Anonymous Says:

if someone needs a rabbi to tell him about security issuess ,he needs to have himself examined by a doctor. (of the same gender/her perhaps)

6

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Brisker chussid Says:

Not maskim i am not flying anymore pushit pretzoos

That's great! Less lines at the airport! :-)

7

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:04 PM WolfishMusings Says:

Reply to #1  
harry Says:

yeah because the idiot who the best job he could find was to work in an airport will definantly be "so busy" doing his work he won't have time to kook at the x-rays. I wouldn't be surprised if there suddenly was a large rise in interest for this new job!!

I doubt it. The majority of people that s/he would have to see are not the "model" types. You'd have to look at a LOT of people with very unflattering body images.

The Wolf

8

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Finally some common sense.

9

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:17 PM karma dude Says:

This heter of osek bemelachto raises a whole new issue for me. Living in a kollel till death society, I have a fundamental problem putting my security in the hands of someone who is "osek bemelachto". This means he isn't in kollel. I will no longer fly. I will just complain until I die about all the different ways the world doesn't conform to my egotistical, narcissistic, and in general retarded opinions that I try to pass off as Judaism.

10

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:54 PM Frum Yid (female) Says:

How far does the heter of Osaik beMelachto go? Can I use a male hair dresser to do my shaitels and hair cuts? What about a male masseur? They are also Osaik beMelachto - so I assume it would be muttar, but does anyone know for sure?

11

 Jan 07, 2010 at 07:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
harry Says:

yeah because the idiot who the best job he could find was to work in an airport will definantly be "so busy" doing his work he won't have time to kook at the x-rays. I wouldn't be surprised if there suddenly was a large rise in interest for this new job!!

Anyone working there would be so busy looking at thousands of passengers every day, and looking at all types of people, they will have no time nor cheishik to work there and to look at those images, after all they'll get the good, the bad and the ugly.

12

 Jan 07, 2010 at 08:11 PM Avi Says:

Given that the machines don't show the makeup, jewelry and $1500 shaitels, I don't understand why anyone would think there would be a problem.

13

 Jan 07, 2010 at 08:32 PM Good karma Says:

Reply to #9  
karma dude Says:

This heter of osek bemelachto raises a whole new issue for me. Living in a kollel till death society, I have a fundamental problem putting my security in the hands of someone who is "osek bemelachto". This means he isn't in kollel. I will no longer fly. I will just complain until I die about all the different ways the world doesn't conform to my egotistical, narcissistic, and in general retarded opinions that I try to pass off as Judaism.

Comment of the month....I salute you.

14

 Jan 07, 2010 at 08:49 PM Frum as well Says:

Reply to #10  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

How far does the heter of Osaik beMelachto go? Can I use a male hair dresser to do my shaitels and hair cuts? What about a male masseur? They are also Osaik beMelachto - so I assume it would be muttar, but does anyone know for sure?

Hair dresser yes, masseur no since he is touching you. But you may go to a pool with a male lifguard since it is also Osaik .The same way a Photograper may do the women at a Chsunah.

15

 Jan 07, 2010 at 08:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

How far does the heter of Osaik beMelachto go? Can I use a male hair dresser to do my shaitels and hair cuts? What about a male masseur? They are also Osaik beMelachto - so I assume it would be muttar, but does anyone know for sure?

"How far does the heter of osaik be'melachto go? Can I use a male masseur?

The heter would apply to a massage from the perspectie of a frumme yiddeshe masseur massaging a yiddeshe woman (a legitimate masseur would come under the inyan of osaik be'melachto)but many frumme masseurs would still be concerned about yichud and negiah. Any woman considering using a yiddeshe masseur should check with her rav or local posek

16

 Jan 07, 2010 at 09:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Frum as well Says:

Hair dresser yes, masseur no since he is touching you. But you may go to a pool with a male lifguard since it is also Osaik .The same way a Photograper may do the women at a Chsunah.

A male photographer is not allowed "to do" women at a chasunah (whatever that means) since that would raise serious questions of modesty for the women getting into their gowns etc. A female photographer would be much more consistent with halacha for the varbeshe portion of the wedding.

17

 Jan 07, 2010 at 09:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Forget halacha here for a second: some women will not feel comfortable going thru the scanners- it is not a medical issue here and there is NO reason why women can't scan women and men scan men.
Who cares if it's halachically permissible- I don't want random males seeing me, period. And I am not fat, ugly, etc... i just don't feel comfortable and i don't feel it's the only option. Same reason why I prefer going to female doctors even though halachically i am permitted to go to a male.
It has nothing to do with religion, just personal privacy issues, so #9- I am not passing it off as judaism it is just a personal human feeling I have and sorry if you can't relate but at least try to understand/ sympathize with others a bit who might have dif. opinions that you.

18

 Jan 07, 2010 at 09:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

How far does the heter of Osaik beMelachto go? Can I use a male hair dresser to do my shaitels and hair cuts? What about a male masseur? They are also Osaik beMelachto - so I assume it would be muttar, but does anyone know for sure?

Why are male gynocologists allowed? Male wedding photographers who (horrors!!) take pictures of women dancing?

19

 Jan 07, 2010 at 09:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Frum as well Says:

Hair dresser yes, masseur no since he is touching you. But you may go to a pool with a male lifguard since it is also Osaik .The same way a Photograper may do the women at a Chsunah.

really a pool.... in a bathing suit? who is your rav? before you pasken i think you should look into this matter.

20

 Jan 07, 2010 at 09:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Forget halacha here for a second: some women will not feel comfortable going thru the scanners- it is not a medical issue here and there is NO reason why women can't scan women and men scan men.
Who cares if it's halachically permissible- I don't want random males seeing me, period. And I am not fat, ugly, etc... i just don't feel comfortable and i don't feel it's the only option. Same reason why I prefer going to female doctors even though halachically i am permitted to go to a male.
It has nothing to do with religion, just personal privacy issues, so #9- I am not passing it off as judaism it is just a personal human feeling I have and sorry if you can't relate but at least try to understand/ sympathize with others a bit who might have dif. opinions that you.

Are you serious? Are you now suggesting that there be separate security lines for men and women at airports? Are you suggesting that couples split up and go on separate lines? Are you nuts? Does the whole world have to turn into Meah Shearim? Better that you should not fly than inconvenience the rest of the world.

21

 Jan 07, 2010 at 09:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

really a pool.... in a bathing suit? who is your rav? before you pasken i think you should look into this matter.

Maybe you need to talk to your rav or posek? It is clearly mutar for a jewish woman to go to a pool with a goiyeshe lifeguard since a goy (male or woman) is not worried about being mechallel of hilchot tzinius or negiah.

P.S. Normal people wear a bathing suit when they go to a pool. What do you wear or shouldn't we ask?

22

 Jan 07, 2010 at 09:57 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't want people looking at me period. And the thought that people think that they are now secure is ludicrous.

23

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Are you serious? Are you now suggesting that there be separate security lines for men and women at airports? Are you suggesting that couples split up and go on separate lines? Are you nuts? Does the whole world have to turn into Meah Shearim? Better that you should not fly than inconvenience the rest of the world.

When they pat you down at the airport if you are a women you get a women security guard and if you are a man you get a man security gaurd they can do the same thing here

24

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

How far does the heter of Osaik beMelachto go? Can I use a male hair dresser to do my shaitels and hair cuts? What about a male masseur? They are also Osaik beMelachto - so I assume it would be muttar, but does anyone know for sure?

why could a male hairdresser not style a sheitel - it's not attached to a head!

25

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Forget halacha here for a second: some women will not feel comfortable going thru the scanners- it is not a medical issue here and there is NO reason why women can't scan women and men scan men.
Who cares if it's halachically permissible- I don't want random males seeing me, period. And I am not fat, ugly, etc... i just don't feel comfortable and i don't feel it's the only option. Same reason why I prefer going to female doctors even though halachically i am permitted to go to a male.
It has nothing to do with religion, just personal privacy issues, so #9- I am not passing it off as judaism it is just a personal human feeling I have and sorry if you can't relate but at least try to understand/ sympathize with others a bit who might have dif. opinions that you.

so don't fly! you cannot expect the normal, secular world to conform to your belief system.

30

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

really a pool.... in a bathing suit? who is your rav? before you pasken i think you should look into this matter.

I think you should go swimming wherever youwant. it is your right.

31

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

When they pat you down at the airport if you are a women you get a women security guard and if you are a man you get a man security gaurd they can do the same thing here

except there is no touching here. it's not as if the machine removes clothing. I thought Jews were supposed to be smart!

32

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

Why are male gynocologists allowed? Male wedding photographers who (horrors!!) take pictures of women dancing?

maybe frum women should only go to female gynecologists?

33

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:42 PM shmulie Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Forget halacha here for a second: some women will not feel comfortable going thru the scanners- it is not a medical issue here and there is NO reason why women can't scan women and men scan men.
Who cares if it's halachically permissible- I don't want random males seeing me, period. And I am not fat, ugly, etc... i just don't feel comfortable and i don't feel it's the only option. Same reason why I prefer going to female doctors even though halachically i am permitted to go to a male.
It has nothing to do with religion, just personal privacy issues, so #9- I am not passing it off as judaism it is just a personal human feeling I have and sorry if you can't relate but at least try to understand/ sympathize with others a bit who might have dif. opinions that you.

YOU might want to try therapy. if you are a grown up and still feel uncomfortable about things like this. are you uncomfortable in front of your husband? what is there to be embarrased about? arent we all humans with human body parts???? come on, grow up.

34

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:

give me a break....SAFETY FIRST!
seperate lines in the airports? its embarassing enough when i go to shoprite on avenue I and see the checkout lines that have teh magazine racks covered up.
if you are too holy to see the pictures on the magazines how about NOT LOOKING!
the whole world does not have to change to accommodate those who dont know how to direct their eyes properly.

35

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:45 PM shmulie Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I don't want people looking at me period. And the thought that people think that they are now secure is ludicrous.

you dont want people to look at you??? wear really really ugly clothing when you fly and it will automatically make them not look too much and pray that there are no nuts with bombs on your flight.

36

 Jan 07, 2010 at 10:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I don't want people looking at me period. And the thought that people think that they are now secure is ludicrous.

“ I don't want people looking at me period."
While we haven't met, I think that most of us here on VIN don't want to look at you either so please stay home with your insecurities while the rest of us travel and live normal lives.

37

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
harry Says:

yeah because the idiot who the best job he could find was to work in an airport will definantly be "so busy" doing his work he won't have time to kook at the x-rays. I wouldn't be surprised if there suddenly was a large rise in interest for this new job!!

What can you see on an x-ray? Maybe you are hoping you can see something and you will apply for this job.

38

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Brisker chussid Says:

Not maskim i am not flying anymore pushit pretzoos

It's nice to know that there is someone like you out there who is smarter than Rav Sternbuch. Please identify yourself so that we can only share in your wisdom.

39

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Are you serious? Are you now suggesting that there be separate security lines for men and women at airports? Are you suggesting that couples split up and go on separate lines? Are you nuts? Does the whole world have to turn into Meah Shearim? Better that you should not fly than inconvenience the rest of the world.

when you get to the end of the line there are about 5 metal detectors you can go thru, and you don't always go in the same one as your husband, it' s the next one in line that goes thru, so now here , too you'd just go thru dif. ones at the last minute. it's no big deal, sorry!

40

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:

it doesnt matter. i refuse to be scanned.

41

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

maybe frum women should only go to female gynecologists?

No Posek has ever suggested that.

42

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:14 PM Anonymous Says:

trust me, these security guards will be seeing thousands of people everyday. i dont think they will be looking at you.

43

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

Maybe you need to talk to your rav or posek? It is clearly mutar for a jewish woman to go to a pool with a goiyeshe lifeguard since a goy (male or woman) is not worried about being mechallel of hilchot tzinius or negiah.

P.S. Normal people wear a bathing suit when they go to a pool. What do you wear or shouldn't we ask?

"It is clearly mutar for a jewish woman to go to a pool with a goiyeshe lifeguard since a goy (male or woman) is not worried about being mechallel of hilchot tzinius or negiah."

What about gilu aroyos when a woman shows her skin to a goy, isnt that in klal of Tefach be'isha erva? Since when does it have to do with the person seeing her? the issur of gilu aroyos has nothing to do with anyone seeing it, its just asur to show your skin period.

44

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
Anonymous Says:

it doesnt matter. i refuse to be scanned.

"it doesnt matter. i refuse to be scanned.”

Who cares what YOU want or what you will or won't do. Since you don't care about the Rav's heter please stay home since they won't let you on the plane without scanning.

45

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:42 PM Frum Yid (female) Says:

Thank you for the helpful opinions. I am still wondering:

Suppose certain malls or department stores begin using these scanners, would there be any halachic chumra not to shop at those locations, or is that a chumra shel shtus since the same hetter of Osaik beMelachto applies?

There are clothing warehouses that don't have proper changing rooms to try on the clothes. I know many customers try on clothes in the aisles - sometimes a worker can see. I always felt that is concerning, but these workers are also Osaik beMelachto, so I guess it is okay!

Regarding the comments that say it's okay for a male to photograph women because he is Osaik beMelachto - would that apply also if the woman is not properly dressed?

Please answer - this si a new area of halacha that we never learned in Bais Yaakov!

46

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
shmulie Says:

YOU might want to try therapy. if you are a grown up and still feel uncomfortable about things like this. are you uncomfortable in front of your husband? what is there to be embarrased about? arent we all humans with human body parts???? come on, grow up.

no, I' m not embarrassed in front of my hubby, I just don't think it's anyones else's business to see me. I don't see why i would need therapy for that but i[ll think about it. maybe i just don't trust men too much....
maybe i've just gotten too much attention from unknown men in the past so I'd rather not go where i don't need too....

47

 Jan 08, 2010 at 01:15 AM Another frum Yid (female) Says:

Reply to #45  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

Thank you for the helpful opinions. I am still wondering:

Suppose certain malls or department stores begin using these scanners, would there be any halachic chumra not to shop at those locations, or is that a chumra shel shtus since the same hetter of Osaik beMelachto applies?

There are clothing warehouses that don't have proper changing rooms to try on the clothes. I know many customers try on clothes in the aisles - sometimes a worker can see. I always felt that is concerning, but these workers are also Osaik beMelachto, so I guess it is okay!

Regarding the comments that say it's okay for a male to photograph women because he is Osaik beMelachto - would that apply also if the woman is not properly dressed?

Please answer - this si a new area of halacha that we never learned in Bais Yaakov!

I'm not a poseik, but it seems to me that Osaik B'melachto only applies when the job itself involves looking at the person. A doctor's job is to examine people. A security worker's job, whether in a mall or an airport, is to check the people coming in. So these people are Osaik B'melachto.

But a clerk in a clothing store - his job is to work at the store, and has nothing to do with seeing people changing- it's not an essential part of his work.

48

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

Thank you for the helpful opinions. I am still wondering:

Suppose certain malls or department stores begin using these scanners, would there be any halachic chumra not to shop at those locations, or is that a chumra shel shtus since the same hetter of Osaik beMelachto applies?

There are clothing warehouses that don't have proper changing rooms to try on the clothes. I know many customers try on clothes in the aisles - sometimes a worker can see. I always felt that is concerning, but these workers are also Osaik beMelachto, so I guess it is okay!

Regarding the comments that say it's okay for a male to photograph women because he is Osaik beMelachto - would that apply also if the woman is not properly dressed?

Please answer - this si a new area of halacha that we never learned in Bais Yaakov!

Good questions indeed. Would a male be allowed to go to a female masseuse since she is Osaik beMelachto?

49

 Jan 08, 2010 at 04:08 AM lechaim Says:

Reply to #14  
Frum as well Says:

Hair dresser yes, masseur no since he is touching you. But you may go to a pool with a male lifguard since it is also Osaik .The same way a Photograper may do the women at a Chsunah.

" a photographer may do the women at the chasunah"?? I would rephrase that.

50

 Jan 08, 2010 at 04:19 AM lechaim Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

except there is no touching here. it's not as if the machine removes clothing. I thought Jews were supposed to be smart!

They will make frum women wearing sheitels remove them when the scanning machine shows something metal under the sheitel, which is actually just a hair pin, barrette etc. Guaranteed.

51

 Jan 08, 2010 at 09:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I'm glad a posek addressed this issue. The pictures, as they appear online, are not all that explicit. They look like an x-ray, that's it. You basically see a mere figure.

Throwing more materials at the problem will not solve it. Placing more fancy machines at these check points does not solve the fact that the terrorist want to hurt us. We need to change philosophies. We need to adjust our take on this problem. Anyone caught trying to cause a terrorist act should immediately get tried and sentenced to 'death'! This should occur no less than 180 days from time of incident.

There should be random full person checks - this means all baggage and belongings of that person should be checked. The randomization method should be computerized. Every random'th person who walks through should have to go through this special check. Then, they should have bomb sniffing pets that patrol the waiting lines and target those that raise concern. Why do they only have them, at least in NY's JFK & Newark, when you arrive from an international origination?

Than a profile should be utilized so that someone who doesn't have luggage no passport etc.. shouldn't be allowed to fly.

52

 Jan 08, 2010 at 09:18 AM gadolwannabe Says:

Baruch Hashem, a gadol with some sechel.

53

 Jan 08, 2010 at 09:39 AM formelly Says:

Reply to #45  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

Thank you for the helpful opinions. I am still wondering:

Suppose certain malls or department stores begin using these scanners, would there be any halachic chumra not to shop at those locations, or is that a chumra shel shtus since the same hetter of Osaik beMelachto applies?

There are clothing warehouses that don't have proper changing rooms to try on the clothes. I know many customers try on clothes in the aisles - sometimes a worker can see. I always felt that is concerning, but these workers are also Osaik beMelachto, so I guess it is okay!

Regarding the comments that say it's okay for a male to photograph women because he is Osaik beMelachto - would that apply also if the woman is not properly dressed?

Please answer - this si a new area of halacha that we never learned in Bais Yaakov!

I think more time should be spend on how to be a good person to your neighbors, me a mensh, how not to steal or do fraud, that this idiotic discussion about xrays

54

 Jan 08, 2010 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Are you serious? Are you now suggesting that there be separate security lines for men and women at airports? Are you suggesting that couples split up and go on separate lines? Are you nuts? Does the whole world have to turn into Meah Shearim? Better that you should not fly than inconvenience the rest of the world.

One of the proposals ACTUALLY being considered by security officials in the U.S. is to ensure that the security personnel viewing the scans are of the same gender. Last I checked, the TSA was not staffed by Meah Shearim charedim. It seems that basic decency and norms of modesty even among the goyim is such that people are uncomfortable with the notion of these scans being monitored by members of the opposite gender. In your rush to try to criticize Meah Shearim charedim and to show how worldly you are and that you have no connection to the archaic concepts known as yiddeshkeit or tznius, you've "out-prust" the goyim and seem to have left behind basic norms of decency and modesty that even the goyim understand.

55

 Jan 07, 2010 at 11:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Forget halacha here for a second: some women will not feel comfortable going thru the scanners- it is not a medical issue here and there is NO reason why women can't scan women and men scan men.
Who cares if it's halachically permissible- I don't want random males seeing me, period. And I am not fat, ugly, etc... i just don't feel comfortable and i don't feel it's the only option. Same reason why I prefer going to female doctors even though halachically i am permitted to go to a male.
It has nothing to do with religion, just personal privacy issues, so #9- I am not passing it off as judaism it is just a personal human feeling I have and sorry if you can't relate but at least try to understand/ sympathize with others a bit who might have dif. opinions that you.

All arguments are a waste of time, the goverment isn't asking us who and how they will implement their security checks and it will not help if u are secure with your looks or not, this article is just about someone asking the Rav what his opinion is on the matter, that won't change the rules at the airport...

56

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Frum Yid (female) Says:

Thank you for the helpful opinions. I am still wondering:

Suppose certain malls or department stores begin using these scanners, would there be any halachic chumra not to shop at those locations, or is that a chumra shel shtus since the same hetter of Osaik beMelachto applies?

There are clothing warehouses that don't have proper changing rooms to try on the clothes. I know many customers try on clothes in the aisles - sometimes a worker can see. I always felt that is concerning, but these workers are also Osaik beMelachto, so I guess it is okay!

Regarding the comments that say it's okay for a male to photograph women because he is Osaik beMelachto - would that apply also if the woman is not properly dressed?

Please answer - this si a new area of halacha that we never learned in Bais Yaakov!

I don't think VIN is the place where to learn the halachus either...

57

 Jan 08, 2010 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Forget halacha here for a second: some women will not feel comfortable going thru the scanners- it is not a medical issue here and there is NO reason why women can't scan women and men scan men.
Who cares if it's halachically permissible- I don't want random males seeing me, period. And I am not fat, ugly, etc... i just don't feel comfortable and i don't feel it's the only option. Same reason why I prefer going to female doctors even though halachically i am permitted to go to a male.
It has nothing to do with religion, just personal privacy issues, so #9- I am not passing it off as judaism it is just a personal human feeling I have and sorry if you can't relate but at least try to understand/ sympathize with others a bit who might have dif. opinions that you.

#17 is right.

It happens all to often, that someone who is asked a Shaylah, is busy and so technical in being "Oisek Bimlachto" of the 4 Cheleky Shulchan Aruch that he forgets to consider the virtual 5th Chelek, (sometimes referred to as "Common Sense").

In case anyone forgot, it happens to be that people are "also" human, too.

58

 Jan 08, 2010 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

All arguments are a waste of time, the goverment isn't asking us who and how they will implement their security checks and it will not help if u are secure with your looks or not, this article is just about someone asking the Rav what his opinion is on the matter, that won't change the rules at the airport...

People who make "policy" are all Elected (directly or indirectly) and at the very least they are hired and FIRED and so our public opinion makes all the difference, if it's implemented or defeated.

59

 Jan 08, 2010 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

Good questions indeed. Would a male be allowed to go to a female masseuse since she is Osaik beMelachto?

No - In this case the Issur would be on the man receiving the massage

60

 Jan 08, 2010 at 11:42 AM Lifney Iver? Or Climbing Up the Wrong Tree? Says:

If the one viewing the image, is a Goy:

Is there any issur for a women to be seen by a Goy?

If the Goy has no issur of Hirhur, then how can it be Lifney Iver, if the Goy is only Mechuyev in 7 Mitzvos Bney Noach.

Nevertheless, the fact that the women knows that a man is viewing her, as though she had no clothing, will certainly impact the women on a humanistic level and so indirectly Halacha is Impacted because Halacha does not want women to feel that way even if according to the technicality of Halacha there is no direct prohibition per say.

This is where anyone being asked a Shaalah has to look at the greater and larger BIG PICTURE of it's global impact rather than consider just one seif in Shulchan Aruch.

Here is an Example to illustrate this point vividly.

Suppose someone were to ask a Rav if there is any "Issur" to be subjected to a Standard Physical Strip Search by Police or security personnel if opposite genders are involved?

A Rav who considers only Technical Halacha could easily give a Heter and say there is no problem because the one doing the visual inspection (there is no touch) is "Oiselk Bimlachtoy".

But in fact EVEN GOYIM demand same gender here!

61

 Jan 08, 2010 at 11:53 AM formelly Says:

Reply to #51  
Anonymous Says:

Throwing more materials at the problem will not solve it. Placing more fancy machines at these check points does not solve the fact that the terrorist want to hurt us. We need to change philosophies. We need to adjust our take on this problem. Anyone caught trying to cause a terrorist act should immediately get tried and sentenced to 'death'! This should occur no less than 180 days from time of incident.

There should be random full person checks - this means all baggage and belongings of that person should be checked. The randomization method should be computerized. Every random'th person who walks through should have to go through this special check. Then, they should have bomb sniffing pets that patrol the waiting lines and target those that raise concern. Why do they only have them, at least in NY's JFK & Newark, when you arrive from an international origination?

Than a profile should be utilized so that someone who doesn't have luggage no passport etc.. shouldn't be allowed to fly.

Anyone caught trying to cause a terrorist act should immediately get tried and sentenced to 'death'! This should occur no less than 180 days from time of incident.

that would not scare them, since they are fully prepared to die. However a death sentence and burial in a pig skin cloth might persuad them

62

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #50  
lechaim Says:

They will make frum women wearing sheitels remove them when the scanning machine shows something metal under the sheitel, which is actually just a hair pin, barrette etc. Guaranteed.

and? how is that in any way unfair? they are choosing to put metal in their scalp!

63

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:16 PM formelly Says:

as far as being comfortable with one owns gender to view the scan. what are we to do next test and make sure that the screener is not gay?

As for me I rather be screened that to get a pat down.

also I an going for an operation an hernia should I ask that all the people in the surgey staff be male and should the hospital agree to that request.

For the naysayer, never get an xray, Mri,cat scan, or an operation unless all the people involved are of the same gender.

And the only way this works if every single one gets to be screened, old young men w oman since someone can just walk with a old person and then just say give me the thing I told you to carry. Or, one can just put it on a child, or dress as a frum yid, and say sorry no scan for me. Then a few minutes latter, kaboom

64

 Jan 08, 2010 at 12:52 PM Huge Problem! Says:

! ALL ONE HAS TO DO WITH NAKED BODY SCAN IS INVERT IT BACK! BOOM! FULL COLOR PORN PIC OF YOU AND YOUR CHILD!!!***
Quote

The full body scanners that President Obama last night authorized to be rolled out in airports across the country at a cost of over $1 billion dollars not only produce detailed pictures of your genitals, but once inverted some of those images also display your naked body in full living color.

And you don’t need to be a graphics wizard using a $600 software suite like Photoshop to pull off the trick – inverting a photo is a simple process that takes one click and is an option available even in the most basic image editing software.

We were sent examples of the process by readers and then tested it for ourselves to confirm that simply inverting some of the pictures produced by the body scanners creates a near-perfect replica of a naked body in full color.

65

 Jan 08, 2010 at 01:56 PM formelly Says:

Reply to #64  
Huge Problem! Says:

! ALL ONE HAS TO DO WITH NAKED BODY SCAN IS INVERT IT BACK! BOOM! FULL COLOR PORN PIC OF YOU AND YOUR CHILD!!!***
Quote

The full body scanners that President Obama last night authorized to be rolled out in airports across the country at a cost of over $1 billion dollars not only produce detailed pictures of your genitals, but once inverted some of those images also display your naked body in full living color.

And you don’t need to be a graphics wizard using a $600 software suite like Photoshop to pull off the trick – inverting a photo is a simple process that takes one click and is an option available even in the most basic image editing software.

We were sent examples of the process by readers and then tested it for ourselves to confirm that simply inverting some of the pictures produced by the body scanners creates a near-perfect replica of a naked body in full color.

each scan picture get deleted right after the scan

66

 Jan 08, 2010 at 04:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
formelly Says:

each scan picture get deleted right after the scan

Formelly,

You are so naive, if you believe such bull and anything security related is EVER deleted.

If and when a security failure is detected, because someone magaed to sneak something in, on a flight, you think there will be no scan left to go back to, to see how or why the system failed???

You are very naive to think that any security info, true or false is ever deleted in any government files.

67

 Jan 08, 2010 at 04:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Anonymous Says:

Formelly,

You are so naive, if you believe such bull and anything security related is EVER deleted.

If and when a security failure is detected, because someone magaed to sneak something in, on a flight, you think there will be no scan left to go back to, to see how or why the system failed???

You are very naive to think that any security info, true or false is ever deleted in any government files.

OK so the gov will keep naked pics of you on file. Who cares??? If this will serve as a deterrent to one meshuganer and save but just 1 plane load of lives, you should be happy to POSE naked for the gov cameras in the airport! Aren't human lives of greater importance than your ego-centric foolishness that you disguise as modesty?

69

 Jan 09, 2010 at 08:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Sorry to say, there's a lot of meshugaim commenting here. Such stupidity. Let's be truthful, there really is no need for such intrusion, if only the rest of the world would just look to the way ELAL profiles - not by color, religion or ethnicity; but by "behavioural" profiling. These are trained, educated and experienced individuals. Not like the workers at the airports who just got a 'job'. Quite strange that no country is interested in learning the safest and least intrusive method and most proven security system as ElAl uses - wondering if it's because it is Israel!

70

 Jan 09, 2010 at 10:55 PM Kollel man Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

I don't think VIN is the place where to learn the halachus either...

“ I don't think VIN is the place where to learn the halachus either...”

I disagree.

VIN is the place! Most local Rabbonim are not fully up to speed on current events and their interaction with halacha. Certainly published seforim are not up-to-date with such halachos. VIN is the place to get the psak from Hagaon Rav Shternbuch Shlitah, and a discussion from frum readers on the topic. By all means - VIN brings us Torah and halacha and is a great place to learn.

I give credit to "Frum Yid (female)" @ #10 & #45 for raising valid shaylahs and getting good informative comments. Lo habayshon lomaid - one cannot be too bashful to ask a shaylah!

I think a woman may use a male mausser, even if he touches her, just as it is ok to use a male doctor who needs to touch the woman's body for a medical examination.

By extension, a male photographer may be used to take pictures of a frum woman even if she isn't fully dressed.

It is problematic for a woman to use a male hairdresser (for her sheitel) because there the male's focus is directly on the woman's appearance and her beauty, and therefore oisek bimlachto is not a heter for him. His melachto in which he is oisek is in itself osser

71

 Jan 10, 2010 at 01:41 AM Anonymous Says:

I am waiting for some Muslim clergymen and activist organizations to complain that these x-rays somehow violate Sharia prescriptions of modesty (particularly for women -- these are the same people who put their women in burkas) and that forcing Muslims to go though such screenings is a violation of their "civil rights" and/or racial/religious "profiling" and demanding that they be exempt. This, of course, would defeat the whole purpose of airport security, since all of the terrorists were currently face are Muslims.

72

 Jan 10, 2010 at 12:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #70  
Kollel man Says:

“ I don't think VIN is the place where to learn the halachus either...”

I disagree.

VIN is the place! Most local Rabbonim are not fully up to speed on current events and their interaction with halacha. Certainly published seforim are not up-to-date with such halachos. VIN is the place to get the psak from Hagaon Rav Shternbuch Shlitah, and a discussion from frum readers on the topic. By all means - VIN brings us Torah and halacha and is a great place to learn.

I give credit to "Frum Yid (female)" @ #10 & #45 for raising valid shaylahs and getting good informative comments. Lo habayshon lomaid - one cannot be too bashful to ask a shaylah!

I think a woman may use a male mausser, even if he touches her, just as it is ok to use a male doctor who needs to touch the woman's body for a medical examination.

By extension, a male photographer may be used to take pictures of a frum woman even if she isn't fully dressed.

It is problematic for a woman to use a male hairdresser (for her sheitel) because there the male's focus is directly on the woman's appearance and her beauty, and therefore oisek bimlachto is not a heter for him. His melachto in which he is oisek is in itself osser

It is problematic for a woman to use a male hairdresser (for her sheitel) because there the male's focus is directly on the woman's appearance and her beauty, and therefore oisek bimlachto is not a heter for him. His melachto in which he is oisek is in itself osser ”

Maybe I am here indulging in stereotypes -- but I don't think most male hairdressers are overly focused on the appearance of even the most beautiful of women.

73

 Jan 10, 2010 at 02:28 PM Kollel man Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

It is problematic for a woman to use a male hairdresser (for her sheitel) because there the male's focus is directly on the woman's appearance and her beauty, and therefore oisek bimlachto is not a heter for him. His melachto in which he is oisek is in itself osser ”

Maybe I am here indulging in stereotypes -- but I don't think most male hairdressers are overly focused on the appearance of even the most beautiful of women.

The so called stereotype of male hairdressers is not a heter, adarabah, it implies that they are shotuf b'zimah (immersed in ta'avah of znus). All the more reason why a married or single female should not use such services (beauty related / hair cutting / sheitels / makeup etc) from a male service provider.

Some comments claimed that there is no lifnei iver by a goy (and therefore if a woman is exposed to a goy - it doesn't matter). This is misleading the public readership and totally false!

Firstly, lifnei iver DOES apply to a goy, see Avoda Zara 6a, minchas chinuch discusses it as does R. Wasserman.

On the question of if "Mesayei'a" -- "helping" one to sin, even when one is not empowering him to sin, which is d'Rabbonon: The Rema holds it also applies to a goybut Shach argues, see REMA YD 151:4 and SHACH there.

According to some definitions, the 7 mitzvos on a Ben Noach, includes the issurim related to the effects of seeing an undressed woman, and note that it is a capital offence. This is not the forum to explain at length.

As such, the issue is serious both for the exposed woman, and the male observer (even if he is a goy, Kal v'chomer, if he is a Jew c"v).

74

 Jan 10, 2010 at 02:58 PM Not a kollel man Says:

Reply to #70  
Kollel man Says:

“ I don't think VIN is the place where to learn the halachus either...”

I disagree.

VIN is the place! Most local Rabbonim are not fully up to speed on current events and their interaction with halacha. Certainly published seforim are not up-to-date with such halachos. VIN is the place to get the psak from Hagaon Rav Shternbuch Shlitah, and a discussion from frum readers on the topic. By all means - VIN brings us Torah and halacha and is a great place to learn.

I give credit to "Frum Yid (female)" @ #10 & #45 for raising valid shaylahs and getting good informative comments. Lo habayshon lomaid - one cannot be too bashful to ask a shaylah!

I think a woman may use a male mausser, even if he touches her, just as it is ok to use a male doctor who needs to touch the woman's body for a medical examination.

By extension, a male photographer may be used to take pictures of a frum woman even if she isn't fully dressed.

It is problematic for a woman to use a male hairdresser (for her sheitel) because there the male's focus is directly on the woman's appearance and her beauty, and therefore oisek bimlachto is not a heter for him. His melachto in which he is oisek is in itself osser

"a male photographer may be used to take pictures of a frum woman even if she isn't fully dressed"

Are you saying it is ok for a frum woman to pose undressed for a photographer? That can't be right!!

Would it matter if photographer is a yid or a goy?

Would it matter the extent of her undressedness - what a photographer would "normally' see on the street (elbows, knees, collar bones) vs. intimate viewings that are not shown on the street or even on a beach?

75

 Jan 11, 2010 at 01:39 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #70  
Kollel man Says:

“ I don't think VIN is the place where to learn the halachus either...”

I disagree.

VIN is the place! Most local Rabbonim are not fully up to speed on current events and their interaction with halacha. Certainly published seforim are not up-to-date with such halachos. VIN is the place to get the psak from Hagaon Rav Shternbuch Shlitah, and a discussion from frum readers on the topic. By all means - VIN brings us Torah and halacha and is a great place to learn.

I give credit to "Frum Yid (female)" @ #10 & #45 for raising valid shaylahs and getting good informative comments. Lo habayshon lomaid - one cannot be too bashful to ask a shaylah!

I think a woman may use a male mausser, even if he touches her, just as it is ok to use a male doctor who needs to touch the woman's body for a medical examination.

By extension, a male photographer may be used to take pictures of a frum woman even if she isn't fully dressed.

It is problematic for a woman to use a male hairdresser (for her sheitel) because there the male's focus is directly on the woman's appearance and her beauty, and therefore oisek bimlachto is not a heter for him. His melachto in which he is oisek is in itself osser

You have got to be kidding me!!!

No comparison can be made between a doctor who's services are for pikuach nefesh etc to a HAIRDRESSER or PHOTOGRAPHER!!!

In the case of a doctor there is discussion as to whether a Jewish patient should consult with a doctor of the same gender, however in the interest of best medical treatment without complication I think all agree this is not something one should worry about when it comes to health.

HOWEVER, following the above halachic discussion it is ever apparent (especially nowadays with a variety of merchants to choose from, and both men and women working) that under no circumstances is there reason to give a heter for an opposite gender hairdresser, and SURELY not a photographer for a scantly clad photo shoot, not that a yid has reason to be involved in such photography. Seemingly the only area for argument is at a simcha where one photographer is covering the entire event, and a second one would be a great hefsed mamoin, and even so, as the subjects being photographed are many, there is less chance of focus an a particular individual, and additionally the crowd keeps a watchful eye.

The same gender should conduct passenger screening.

76

 Jan 11, 2010 at 07:43 AM Groningen Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Forget halacha here for a second: some women will not feel comfortable going thru the scanners- it is not a medical issue here and there is NO reason why women can't scan women and men scan men.
Who cares if it's halachically permissible- I don't want random males seeing me, period. And I am not fat, ugly, etc... i just don't feel comfortable and i don't feel it's the only option. Same reason why I prefer going to female doctors even though halachically i am permitted to go to a male.
It has nothing to do with religion, just personal privacy issues, so #9- I am not passing it off as judaism it is just a personal human feeling I have and sorry if you can't relate but at least try to understand/ sympathize with others a bit who might have dif. opinions that you.

The same about feeling comfortable is true for some men, but would you be happy if instead of a man or woman it would be a computer looking for suspect things, YOU do not have in your underwear, but which that Nigerian bomber carried there?

77

 Jan 11, 2010 at 09:50 PM Kollel man Says:

Reply to #75  
Anonymous Says:

You have got to be kidding me!!!

No comparison can be made between a doctor who's services are for pikuach nefesh etc to a HAIRDRESSER or PHOTOGRAPHER!!!

In the case of a doctor there is discussion as to whether a Jewish patient should consult with a doctor of the same gender, however in the interest of best medical treatment without complication I think all agree this is not something one should worry about when it comes to health.

HOWEVER, following the above halachic discussion it is ever apparent (especially nowadays with a variety of merchants to choose from, and both men and women working) that under no circumstances is there reason to give a heter for an opposite gender hairdresser, and SURELY not a photographer for a scantly clad photo shoot, not that a yid has reason to be involved in such photography. Seemingly the only area for argument is at a simcha where one photographer is covering the entire event, and a second one would be a great hefsed mamoin, and even so, as the subjects being photographed are many, there is less chance of focus an a particular individual, and additionally the crowd keeps a watchful eye.

The same gender should conduct passenger screening.

How can you say that a doctor's services are for pikuach nefesh??? Most visits to the doctor are healthy check ups! The patient is not a choleh mesukon, not even a choleh at all, but a fully healthy robusk patient!! "Pikuach nefesh" when it has no application to this discussion!

Bear in mind that a doctor does not merely passively observes the patient, but also touches the patient, at times, even in private places (and often in a yichud situation of a closed door). But that is muttar because of oisek b'melachto (and NOTHING to do with pikuach nefesh).

In contrast, a photographer simply observes the subject - no touching is involved, no yichud of a private closed room, and no access to private places on the body. He is oisek b'melachto - so of course it is muttar, kal v'chomer from a doctor!!

Al pi torah there is no distinction between medical doctors and photographers - each is oisek b'melachto.

Regarding your comment, a yid has no reason to be involved in a scantly clad photo shoot -

I was recently asked by a "women's only" gym if they can use a male photographer for various photos, e.g. before/after weight loss scantyphoto, to be mechazek their membership? P'sak: Muttar

78

 Jan 11, 2010 at 10:18 PM Kollel man Says:

Reply to #75  
Anonymous Says:

You have got to be kidding me!!!

No comparison can be made between a doctor who's services are for pikuach nefesh etc to a HAIRDRESSER or PHOTOGRAPHER!!!

In the case of a doctor there is discussion as to whether a Jewish patient should consult with a doctor of the same gender, however in the interest of best medical treatment without complication I think all agree this is not something one should worry about when it comes to health.

HOWEVER, following the above halachic discussion it is ever apparent (especially nowadays with a variety of merchants to choose from, and both men and women working) that under no circumstances is there reason to give a heter for an opposite gender hairdresser, and SURELY not a photographer for a scantly clad photo shoot, not that a yid has reason to be involved in such photography. Seemingly the only area for argument is at a simcha where one photographer is covering the entire event, and a second one would be a great hefsed mamoin, and even so, as the subjects being photographed are many, there is less chance of focus an a particular individual, and additionally the crowd keeps a watchful eye.

The same gender should conduct passenger screening.

You wrote that a male photographer is muttar at a simcha where one photographer is covering the entire event, and a second one would be a great hefsed mamoin -

What kind of tzad heter is that?? Firstly since when is a photographer a "required" feature at a simcha. Afilu if that is the accepted minhag, why not simply hire a female photographer to cover the entire event. Finally, we can't toss around hefsed mamoin as a heter of issurei tznius, avak giluy arayos!!

Your other tzad heter are also faulty: that there is less chance of focus an a particular individual, simply not true, as the photographer clearly focusses on certain individuals, e.g. the kallah, mothers, sisters etc.

And when you write: that additionally the crowd keeps a watchful eye, on the photographer??? When you are at a simcha, do you even glance at the photographer???

But l'shitascha (to your opinion), if hefsed mamoin is a heter, suppose the male hair dresser is cheaper, or better skilled? Vayter, in a crowded salon, other customers keep a watchful eye? And since he wants to complete the job and go to the next client, there is less chance of focus too much on a particular individual.

Your svara is faulty!!

79

 Jan 11, 2010 at 11:47 PM Kollel man Says:

I wish to clarify, that it is ossur for a woman to use a male hairdressser for haircuts or shaitels. There is no heter of oisek b'milachto, as his focus is davka on the woman's appearances and beauty. Even if he is a goy, there is avak giluy aroyos if she is an aishes ish. If she is single it is pritzus.

Make no mistake!

80

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