“ As much as it is a mitzvah to have children as they come there is something as a heter for people who feel they can not handle it whether psycologicaly or for other reasons. One does not do it for wanting to have an easy life. For some raising one child is harder than 17 for another. We cannot and are not allowed to be judgemental. Unfortunately, sometimes women have to take things into their own hands because they are not seriously taken. The reason may be what the are going through internally and no one can understand. Sometimes it may be what she knows and sees her husband unable to deal with longer. She is looking to keep the family together.
Having family in Israel , we have one child who has their door open to all . Their Shabbos guest last week was a father of 12 who cannnot handle the pressures and had to get away....and what about his wife? They are his children all the way and now it's hers all the way. Or how about fathers/men who stay away from home until they know the children are all sleeping.
A smart person told me that unfortunately we have come to times when we should get a heter when to have children not when to stop or take a break(not for convenience sake)! ”

“ As much as it is a mitzvah to have children as they come there is something as a heter for people who feel they can not handle it whether psycologicaly or for other reasons. One does not do it for wanting to have an easy life. For some raising one child is harder than 17 for another. We cannot and are not allowed to be judgemental. Unfortunately, sometimes women have to take things into their own hands because they are not seriously taken. The reason may be what the are going through internally and no one can understand. Sometimes it may be what she knows and sees her husband unable to deal with longer. She is looking to keep the family together.
Having family in Israel , we have one child who has their door open to all . Their Shabbos guest last week was a father of 12 who cannnot handle the pressures and had to get away....and what about his wife? They are his children all the way and now it's hers all the way. Or how about fathers/men who stay away from home until they know the children are all sleeping.
A smart person told me that unfortunately we have come to times when we should get a heter when to have children not when to stop or take a break(not for convenience sake)! ”

“ Heter's are for birth control not for abortions. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ This is a total shock. What's happening with people's bitachon and emunah? The question is - if the world is coming to this -that charedi woman wanting to have abortions, maybe they should be talking about birth control with a Rav, if they can't handle it? Especially if they have psychological issues? I am not saying I am for it - but seems that birth control is still better than having an abortion, any day. These people considering - don't they know that abortion can be tantamount to murder? How about having the child and giving it away to a childless couple to adopt! So forget the abortion - this may be the best thing. Many childless couples would love to adopt a Jewish child instead of going to foreign places to get a baby that they would have to convert! ”

“ "What's happening with people's bitachon and emunah?"

Its called the economy, stupid. These are hard working yiddin who are shomrei torah umitzvot and cannot afford to feed and clothe the children they already have or pay for tuition to yeshiva. They have lots of bitachon and emunah but that hasn't paid their bills and is unlikely to do so for another baby. Thats why so many rabbonim are willingly approving abortions for these unfortnate situations of uplanned and unwanted pregnancies. Kol hakovod to any rav who has the courage to recognize reality and not make these women feel like they are doing somthing against halacha. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ Since the beginning of time Yidden have had very severe financial problems and have lived in the greatest poverty much greater than what we endure today and never has anyone thought of abortion for financial reasons and it is prohibited for financial reasons.

If past generations only had children they could comfortably afford then YOU the reader of this comment would not have been born nor alive today.

I would like to know, which reader of this comment is OK with the fact that his birth should be reversed if possible, that he should dia or not have been born because HE (the reader of this comment) is a currently a financial burden to someone or was a financial burden to his parents and so he prefers to not be alive today for financial reasons!?!?!?!

Each and every one of our great grandparents had endure far greater hardship than anything we complain about and so non of us should have been born? ”

“ You sound like a lib who cannot defrentiate between contraception & murder (aka abortion). Or else you are catholic who also considers contraception as abortion.
Well, by Torah Law, contraception is something that may be premitted or even required, based on circumstances (Always ask your Rabbi). Abortion is considered murder, and is never permitted, unless the fetus is endangering the mothers life (So it's considered killing in self defense). ”

“ "Thanks" #15 for the "stupid" compliment.

There is such a thing as adoption. Someone once told me about a childless couple who wanted to adopt a Jewish baby. Very, very hard to find a normal, Jewish baby. Baby's with Down Syndrome, much easier.

If these people would only give up a baby for adoption, they will be able to not only save a life, but make a childless couple very happy.

I also cannot imagine there is a Rav in the world that would say ok to an abortion for economy reasons or any other reason unless having that baby would endanger the mother's health in pregnancy or even childbirth. I remember 2 cases where women (not Jewish were expecting multiple baby's and were recommended to abort some, so others can survive. Both didnt' listen and all baby's survived. So much what doctors know. How many times are doctors wrong when they make predictions?

Efrat is a wonderful organization - kol hakovod. A worthy organization to support. (I have no connection with the organization. Just reading this article on the great work they do - prompted me to write this.) ”

“ Are you a Rov? a Heter can be given for many reasons and in many different circumstances, ie there is a difference between a man who was mekayem pro urvo and one that was not, please dont pasken without education. ”

“ Reply # 25:
also cannot imagine there is a Rav in the world that would say ok to an abortion for economy reasons or any other reason unless having that baby would endanger the mother's health in pregnancy or even childbirth. I remember 2 cases where women (not Jewish were expecting multiple baby's and were recommended to abort some, so others can survive. Both didnt' listen and all baby's survived. So much what doctors know. How many times are doctors wrong when they make predictions?

Doctors do not make predictions. They give probabilities. With IVF and multiple fetus the chances of survival of baby and mother are better with only two or three. ”

“ Has anyone considered that there's no way Chareidim would really consider abortion; that it's just a threat, just a way to get some money from some organization? ”

“ Birth control may be mutar l'chatchila for ANY reason once a family has had a male and a female child. Consult your own rabbi as opinions differ. ”

“ Some poskim permit an abortion when the fetus has a genetic abnormality. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ If rabbis won't permit people to use birth control you will end up reading stories in the news similiar to the one we all read last week about a Hareidi father that killed his own infant. ”

“ Some poskim permit an abortion when the fetus has a genetic abnormality. ”

“ So why not abort a ten year old's life if you can't afford him? That would be even more courageous!

Efrat is a wonderful organization that deserves support. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ Additionally, the Mitzvah was given to man and not woman, so if she feels she cannot take care of another child, it is really a decision she alone has to make regarding birth control. ”

“ "Thanks" #15 for the "stupid" compliment.

There is such a thing as adoption. Someone once told me about a childless couple who wanted to adopt a Jewish baby. Very, very hard to find a normal, Jewish baby. Baby's with Down Syndrome, much easier.

If these people would only give up a baby for adoption, they will be able to not only save a life, but make a childless couple very happy.

I also cannot imagine there is a Rav in the world that would say ok to an abortion for economy reasons or any other reason unless having that baby would endanger the mother's health in pregnancy or even childbirth. I remember 2 cases where women (not Jewish were expecting multiple baby's and were recommended to abort some, so others can survive. Both didnt' listen and all baby's survived. So much what doctors know. How many times are doctors wrong when they make predictions?

Efrat is a wonderful organization - kol hakovod. A worthy organization to support. (I have no connection with the organization. Just reading this article on the great work they do - prompted me to write this.) ”

“ Again, some fool who cannot defrentiate. The Genetic abnomality you are referring to is Turners Disease or the like, that the child has little chance to live past her first month, therefore it may be considered a Neifel (see Titz Eliezer and others).
If the child can survive, like Down Syndrome, there is noone that will be matir, for it's considered Murder!
I sicerely hope you ask shailos, and don't pasken yourself based on hearsay! ”

“ You sound like a lib who cannot defrentiate between contraception & murder (aka abortion). Or else you are catholic who also considers contraception as abortion.
Well, by Torah Law, contraception is something that may be premitted or even required, based on circumstances (Always ask your Rabbi). Abortion is considered murder, and is never permitted, unless the fetus is endangering the mothers life (So it's considered killing in self defense). ”

“ #2 Large families with 10 + births was virtually unheard of in Europe, especially among the poorest Jewish families ”

“ Are you a Rov? a Heter can be given for many reasons and in many different circumstances, ie there is a difference between a man who was mekayem pro urvo and one that was not, please dont pasken without education. ”

“ Are you saying Halachickally one should keep on popping them out even while barely making ends meet and living in poverty? Quote some sources! You can't just proclaim that in the "luft arein!" ”

“ perhaps because that is murder yet in most countries abortion is not ”

“ The judgement here is astounding. "Where is their bitachon?"

I have a better question: "Where is your checkbook?"

We have meshulachim come to the door every single day. The biggest complaint: We have too many children. Compound that with the fact that the wives are frequently ill, psychologically, and you have a very unstable situation. Give money to Efrat, people, if you despise abortion so much. Frankly, I"m not sure why Rabbaim are so against it. Until a fetus is 40 days old, it's not even considered an entity. The fact that Rabbaim are so predominantly against something that can ease the pain of a Jewish woman makes me realize that they're completely unaware of the burden that Jewish women face.

There may be men that help raise their children, but in Israel, I never saw it. I saw men on buses, unencumbered by a single stroller, heading to and fro his yeshiva. But I saw women, harried and harrassed, in the backs of buses, navigating toddlers and infants and children of all ages with groceries. I saw them cooking, cleaning, walking, taking care of children. Rabbaim never see children, therefore they never consider how to handle large families. ”

“ Again, some fool who cannot defrentiate. The Genetic abnomality you are referring to is Turners Disease or the like, that the child has little chance to live past her first month, therefore it may be considered a Neifel (see Titz Eliezer and others).
If the child can survive, like Down Syndrome, there is noone that will be matir, for it's considered Murder!
I sicerely hope you ask shailos, and don't pasken yourself based on hearsay! ”

“ Maybe its time for the rabbis to take some responsibility for creating a promoting a lifestyle where so many fathers not only provide little or no financial support, but also provide very little in the way of hands-on time at home helping with child care and raising their children. ”

“ The judgement here is astounding. "Where is their bitachon?"

I have a better question: "Where is your checkbook?"

We have meshulachim come to the door every single day. The biggest complaint: We have too many children. Compound that with the fact that the wives are frequently ill, psychologically, and you have a very unstable situation. Give money to Efrat, people, if you despise abortion so much. Frankly, I"m not sure why Rabbaim are so against it. Until a fetus is 40 days old, it's not even considered an entity. The fact that Rabbaim are so predominantly against something that can ease the pain of a Jewish woman makes me realize that they're completely unaware of the burden that Jewish women face.

There may be men that help raise their children, but in Israel, I never saw it. I saw men on buses, unencumbered by a single stroller, heading to and fro his yeshiva. But I saw women, harried and harrassed, in the backs of buses, navigating toddlers and infants and children of all ages with groceries. I saw them cooking, cleaning, walking, taking care of children. Rabbaim never see children, therefore they never consider how to handle large families. ”

“ The judgement here is astounding. "Where is their bitachon?"

I have a better question: "Where is your checkbook?"

We have meshulachim come to the door every single day. The biggest complaint: We have too many children. Compound that with the fact that the wives are frequently ill, psychologically, and you have a very unstable situation. Give money to Efrat, people, if you despise abortion so much. Frankly, I"m not sure why Rabbaim are so against it. Until a fetus is 40 days old, it's not even considered an entity. The fact that Rabbaim are so predominantly against something that can ease the pain of a Jewish woman makes me realize that they're completely unaware of the burden that Jewish women face.

There may be men that help raise their children, but in Israel, I never saw it. I saw men on buses, unencumbered by a single stroller, heading to and fro his yeshiva. But I saw women, harried and harrassed, in the backs of buses, navigating toddlers and infants and children of all ages with groceries. I saw them cooking, cleaning, walking, taking care of children. Rabbaim never see children, therefore they never consider how to handle large families. ”

“ True and ignoring the mitzva of being "mpharnes one's own mishpacha!" It is not a mitzva to bring children into the world only to starve them and make them hungry, not cared for and not have the time or energy to show them love, affection and give them the attention they need and starve for. If one chooses to live the life of an "oni" and a wife agrees do they have a right to impose that lifestyle on all their children? Are their children not entitled to what WE consider rights such as food, shelter from the elements, healthcare, education and basically a bed to sleep in? Maybe they are asking their sheilos from the wrong Rabbonim. ”

“ And a heter for birth control is only for health reasons, not financial ones. ”

“ The judgement here is astounding. "Where is their bitachon?"

I have a better question: "Where is your checkbook?"

We have meshulachim come to the door every single day. The biggest complaint: We have too many children. Compound that with the fact that the wives are frequently ill, psychologically, and you have a very unstable situation. Give money to Efrat, people, if you despise abortion so much. Frankly, I"m not sure why Rabbaim are so against it. Until a fetus is 40 days old, it's not even considered an entity. The fact that Rabbaim are so predominantly against something that can ease the pain of a Jewish woman makes me realize that they're completely unaware of the burden that Jewish women face.

There may be men that help raise their children, but in Israel, I never saw it. I saw men on buses, unencumbered by a single stroller, heading to and fro his yeshiva. But I saw women, harried and harrassed, in the backs of buses, navigating toddlers and infants and children of all ages with groceries. I saw them cooking, cleaning, walking, taking care of children. Rabbaim never see children, therefore they never consider how to handle large families. ”

“ to the comment about "in Europe they didn't have ten chuldren....", Many died in childhood, the healthier ones suvived and so the family size was ultimately smaller. With the advent of NICU's, high risk ob care, the infant mortality has gone down considerably along with vaccinations and cures that have reduced deaths in children.

Regarding Rabbies and heters for birth control, as a therapist i can tell you of patients who turned to Rabbis only to have them feel guilty for wanting a heter. One Rabbi told a mother who lives in a one bedroom apartment with her five children, that in Russia, the lived with ten children in a small flat. Other Rabbis give an automatic two year break, before you finish the sentence... Also, another common heter for birth control is the level of sholom bayis. There are many couples that should not be having more children as they are to immature to deal with their relationship or when their is physical or emotional abuse that is "not getting better with time" ”

“ You are dead wrong. We do not allow people to murder at whim, in order to save money. Did you know that some poskim (Pachad Yitzchok, Koach Shor) even believe that the baby is not a rodef when the mother's life is threatened (they call this an act of G-d, pursuit by Heaven). You are very ignorant on these issues. You should be getting your ideas from Rebbi Yishmoel and Reb Moshe, not Gloria Steinem and other liberals. And yes, even from conception, it is a life. Why do you think even before 40 days have passed, according to Ramban, Rosh, and Behag, one can be mechallel shabbos to save the life of the unborn child (you can only be mechallel shabbos to save a human life)? It is a life, not something that can be disposed at every whim and fancy. I proudly give to Efrat, Rabbi Yehuda Levin, Just One Life, Rabbi Eliezer Goldstock, Jews for Life, and the Jewish Pro Life Foundation, along with many other tzedakos and Crisis Pregnancy Centers. It is a mother's duty to care for their babies- that is HaShem's will. Perhaps you should join JOFA or the Reformed movement. ”

“ In theory you may be right but in reality there simply are no guarantees in life and no one knows what the future holds for them.

There is no way anyone can say who will have enough money to support their children in the years to come in the near future and in the far future.

It's simply scientifically unpredictable and so all such speculation is futile and is nothing more and nothing less than a lack of Emunah and Bitochon.

For example there are plenty of people who were very rich and suddenly became poor and they had no way of knowing that it would happen to them before they had a child and similarly some who went to college had degrees and are all unemployed today.

On the other hand there are many who are high school dropouts and had no secular education and are very rich in their own business.

Although it seems to make sense to say that if you can't afford the 2 children you have today, then how can you think about supporting a 3d but this logic is incorrect because suppose you have 2 children and are $100 in the red each week today, who is to say that if you had 1 child, that you wouldn't be in the same financial deficit, if Hashem wants it that way and vice versa ”

“ This is a scary subject. My wife and I barely survive right now. Since 6 months after getting married we have had tremendous difficulties. For example, today its 8pm in Jerusalem, all I ate today was a bowl of cream of wheat. We have no food for dinner, so my wife is luckily going to a wedding, and going to make me the last bits of food in the house. We just had our second baby 4 weeks ago.

NEVER IN A MILLION BILLION YEARS WOULD WE EVER EVEN THINK OF AN ABORTION!!!! definetly it is a lack of emunah without question.

Back to our situation everyone talks without knowing well here is a real case:

A GADOL in the aideh Charedis (big rav, posek...) gave us psak that without a question we must begin birth control! So there you have it:
1) Charedi rabbis are 100% excellent in every way and loshon hara will bring you excrutiating gehenom so stop.
2) When you have a difficult situation and no hope on the horizon, its completely valid to take birth control.

Both me and my wife want to have more children but at the moment we are *SCREWED* financially. We have no luck. Any job is for 20 shekels, work like a horse, or just not possible because its an anti-religious company... ”

“ i work and my husband is in kollel for over 14 years. After each birth (i have 7 kids bah) i would worry saying, how could i earn more than i am earning? i work my maximum hrs etc How will we manage....but somehow, my income increased with each child dont ask how! - Hashem is going to give you the money you need! If you have less kids, you will will not necessarily have more money.

Having said that, every couple should decide if and when to ask daas torah if the women needs a break, physically, or mentally, (could equal financially). ”

“ These Zedakos sound very viable to me but why in the world is there a need for them - can't we provide much cheaper counseling to women before it happens?? ”

“ The simple answer is that these men need to either be with their wife's Lo Kedarcho or refrain from the act! ”

“ We need them because people still choose to abort, and because both people and governments violate halakha by sanctioning abortion on demand. We live in a culture of death, where we think that abortion, euthanasia, and physician assisted suicide are all acceptable, despite the fact that they are an abomination in the eyes of HaShem and the Torah. ”

“ I have not yet seen a comment regarding the olden days where mothers nursed their children for several YEARS until they were weaned and then naturally became pregnant with their next child. This is not the case today and therefore, our lifestyle demands some real thinking in how we prepare for this phenomenon where babies are lucky if they get nursed at all!! ”

“ i work and my husband is in kollel for over 14 years. After each birth (i have 7 kids bah) i would worry saying, how could i earn more than i am earning? i work my maximum hrs etc How will we manage....but somehow, my income increased with each child dont ask how! - Hashem is going to give you the money you need! If you have less kids, you will will not necessarily have more money.

Having said that, every couple should decide if and when to ask daas torah if the women needs a break, physically, or mentally, (could equal financially). ”

“ i dont understand how reproduction can be a mitzvah for men but not women ???

”

“ You are dead wrong. We do not allow people to murder at whim, in order to save money. Did you know that some poskim (Pachad Yitzchok, Koach Shor) even believe that the baby is not a rodef when the mother's life is threatened (they call this an act of G-d, pursuit by Heaven). You are very ignorant on these issues. You should be getting your ideas from Rebbi Yishmoel and Reb Moshe, not Gloria Steinem and other liberals. And yes, even from conception, it is a life. Why do you think even before 40 days have passed, according to Ramban, Rosh, and Behag, one can be mechallel shabbos to save the life of the unborn child (you can only be mechallel shabbos to save a human life)? It is a life, not something that can be disposed at every whim and fancy. I proudly give to Efrat, Rabbi Yehuda Levin, Just One Life, Rabbi Eliezer Goldstock, Jews for Life, and the Jewish Pro Life Foundation, along with many other tzedakos and Crisis Pregnancy Centers. It is a mother's duty to care for their babies- that is HaShem's will. Perhaps you should join JOFA or the Reformed movement. ”

“ That which so studiously quoted from Pachad Yitzchok and Koach Shor "Min shamia ka rodfey la" is only after the baby's head is out or it's determined "sheklo chodoshov" and it's a gemora in Sanhedrin and brought lihalcha in Rambam . Thanks for letting us know you use Otzar hachochma without learning gemara. ”