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Jerusalem - Rabbi Calls Israel's Treatment of Vatican 'outrageous'

Published on: January 16, 2010 10:31 PM
By:  Haaretz
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Rabbi David Rosen  presenting his book, The Christian the Phariseel, to Pope Benedict XVI Rabbi David Rosen presenting his book, The Christian the Phariseel, to Pope Benedict XVI

Jerusalem - Israel’s behavior toward the Vatican over the past 15 years has been “outrageous,” one of the figures behind the 1994 establishment of diplomatic relations between Jerusalem and Vatican City told Haaretz last week. “Any [other] country would have threatened to withdraw its ambassador long ago over Israel’s failure to honor agreements,” Rabbi David Rosen  said.

Rosen is to attend the meeting scheduled in Rome today between Pope Benedict XVI and a delegation from Israel’s Chief Rabbinate, which is taking place at a time of crisis in the Vatican’s relations with Israel and with Jewish leaders.

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Rosen, a British-born former chief rabbi of Ireland who is the international director of interreligious affairs of the American Jewish Committee, said the Vatican agreed to diplomatic relations with Israel after Jerusalem pledged to recognize the legal status of Catholic institutions in Israel and exempt Vatican property in Israel from taxes. The process was to take two years, he said.
“Fifteen years later, the state has not ratified an agreement recognizing the church’s legal status,” Rosen said. He said the Vatican wants its internal hierarchy recognized by Israeli law, which at present treats each Catholic church as a separate nonprofit organization.

Israeli bureaucrats wore down the Vatican by negotiating every tax clause separately instead of granting a general concession, as expected by the Vatican, Rosen said. He called claims that the Vatican wants Israel to cede territory to it “falsehoods” propagated by “xenophobes.”

Last month Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon discussed the legal issues in Rome with Vatican officials. He later said the talks “broke down” and that there was a “crisis” in relations.

Meanwhile, some Israeli politicians and Jewish leaders were angered by the Pope’s proclamation last month that Pope Pius XII is eligible for for beatification, despite evidence that he may have turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

“Most people don’t know that almost every current problem in Vatican-Jewish relations began not with Pope Benedict, but with his predecessor Pope John Paul II, who is now seen as a saint by Jews,” Rosen said.


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Read Comments (49)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jan 16, 2010 at 10:44 PM Rosen is outrageous - he's a papal Knight. ick Says:

Should be a wake up call to all those Jews who think that the AJC and ADL are on the side of the Jewish people: And Rosen is no Jewish leader. He is a sellout.
"Papal Knighthood Given to a Jewish Rabbi David Rosen by Gary ...
On November 3, Rabbi David Rosen, the American Jewish Committee's international director ... "
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a029htRabbiKnight_Morella.htm
Above, Rabbi Rosen warmly received by JPII

2

 Jan 16, 2010 at 10:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Let them open up their caticombs, libraries and storehouses to us so we can take back all of our Jewish artifacts and then talk about tax exemptions. They're a bunch of cry babies because our existence proves the falsehoods in their beliefs.

3

 Jan 16, 2010 at 10:48 PM joey Says:

we don't need to recognize Christians in our holy land of the jews, Christianity is a thorn in any sensitive jews heart,.
Also since when is a "Rabbi so worried about the pope? im sure they can find their own advocates, its not a rabbis job, he should be worrying about the status of the frum jewry not about them!

4

 Jan 16, 2010 at 10:50 PM Charlie Hall Says:

The Vatican has a point here. There is no reason why it should have to negotiate separately regarding every single church property. It doesn't even have to do this in the United States which does not have any specific agreement with the Vatican.

Rabbi Rosen is a former Chief Rabbi of Ireland.

5

 Jan 16, 2010 at 10:51 PM Anonymous Says:

So we need to pander to the Vatican - which wants to convert us every living moment?

6

 Jan 16, 2010 at 10:59 PM Anonymous Says:

The situation got even worse when some Rav who is in charge of har habayis initially tried to stop the pope from coming to daven by the kossel if he wore a tzalem. Fortunately, that absurd demand was withdrawn when senior government officials intervened and stopped such a meshuge demand which was incredibly insulting the vatican and Catholics worldwide.

7

 Jan 16, 2010 at 10:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Seen as a St. by jews!?! Which Jews? We have long referred to him as אותו האיש for a reason!

8

 Jan 16, 2010 at 11:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Who is this clown? What he says is such an outrage. The Vatican's attitude toward Jews and Israel has been outrageous. Aside from honoring "Hitler's Pope" (as a German researcher called him) the Vatican has not uttered a word about Jews sufferring (for example, the rocket barrages from Gaza). The Vatican speaks nicely of the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust. However, as one Jewish leader (whose name I do not recall) said - If the Vatican spoke as nicely about living Jews as it does about dead Jews, we could have good relations.

9

 Jan 16, 2010 at 11:07 PM Outrageous Says:

We are outrageous, but the church over the last 2 millennia was just fine. Right?
This Rosen fellow reminds me eerily of the so called "Neturei Karta" monsters who try to find favor in our enemies eyes.
He looks more sophisticated, but that's that.
I have no respect for these quislings.

10

 Jan 16, 2010 at 11:17 PM skazm Says:

And with all due respect, go ask the rabbis of Diaspora Yeshiva if the Vatican is trying to get control over Kever David and see what they tell you. Those aren't falsehoods perpetrated by xenophobes. BTW - this Rosen is a "Rabbi" like I'm the Pope (chalila) but what do you expect, he's Reform.

11

 Jan 16, 2010 at 11:30 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #3  
joey Says:

we don't need to recognize Christians in our holy land of the jews, Christianity is a thorn in any sensitive jews heart,.
Also since when is a "Rabbi so worried about the pope? im sure they can find their own advocates, its not a rabbis job, he should be worrying about the status of the frum jewry not about them!

So what would you do? Shoot them?

12

 Jan 16, 2010 at 11:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Charlie Hall Says:

The Vatican has a point here. There is no reason why it should have to negotiate separately regarding every single church property. It doesn't even have to do this in the United States which does not have any specific agreement with the Vatican.

Rabbi Rosen is a former Chief Rabbi of Ireland.

And the Jews have a point, too! So this Jew says that all the persecution and killing that went on for 2000 years by the Church against the Jews we have to thank the church as an institution!!!

13

 Jan 16, 2010 at 11:52 PM chaim Says:

Jewish people wake up. Don't be in denial we are in exile even in israel. we are the most vulnerable in sense of every nation wants to see us wiped out. "one sheep between 70 wolves" we are not allowed to be Misgare Beumos, Don't fight the vatican if you a right or not. it is a dangerous play. by the very end we will give in if we like it or not. They are stronger politicly from israel. so why make a fight.

14

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:00 AM Richard Nixon Says:

Can't any of you read simple English??? The issue is not how we should relate to the church, whether they deserve to be treated one way or another. The issue is should Israel live up to its commitments or not and like it or not the answer is YES, no ifs ands or buts.

15

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:00 AM berel Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

The situation got even worse when some Rav who is in charge of har habayis initially tried to stop the pope from coming to daven by the kossel if he wore a tzalem. Fortunately, that absurd demand was withdrawn when senior government officials intervened and stopped such a meshuge demand which was incredibly insulting the vatican and Catholics worldwide.

are you so learned in halacha ?are you so sure that bringing a 'tzelem b'heichal' is mutter ,or are you just paskening from treif secular kopas what you personal opinion thinks like the other posters?

16

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
skazm Says:

And with all due respect, go ask the rabbis of Diaspora Yeshiva if the Vatican is trying to get control over Kever David and see what they tell you. Those aren't falsehoods perpetrated by xenophobes. BTW - this Rosen is a "Rabbi" like I'm the Pope (chalila) but what do you expect, he's Reform.

look at the story source- haaretz that tells it all. left wing, pro our enemies paper that btw is in serious financial trouble

17

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:04 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
skazm Says:

And with all due respect, go ask the rabbis of Diaspora Yeshiva if the Vatican is trying to get control over Kever David and see what they tell you. Those aren't falsehoods perpetrated by xenophobes. BTW - this Rosen is a "Rabbi" like I'm the Pope (chalila) but what do you expect, he's Reform.

Stop spreading flase lashon hara against other people. Rabbi Rosen is not reform, and he has more credibility as a scholar on the Torah, than every blogger post here on VIN.

18

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:06 AM esther Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

The situation got even worse when some Rav who is in charge of har habayis initially tried to stop the pope from coming to daven by the kossel if he wore a tzalem. Fortunately, that absurd demand was withdrawn when senior government officials intervened and stopped such a meshuge demand which was incredibly insulting the vatican and Catholics worldwide.

sorry,but insulting or not insulting the vatican and catholics is way down on the list of frumme priorities.

19

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:15 AM shovivim Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

The situation got even worse when some Rav who is in charge of har habayis initially tried to stop the pope from coming to daven by the kossel if he wore a tzalem. Fortunately, that absurd demand was withdrawn when senior government officials intervened and stopped such a meshuge demand which was incredibly insulting the vatican and Catholics worldwide.

I see that you know nothing about what the rabannim of the past 250 years taught us about the tumah of a tzelem. The Tzelem causes tumah and that is misalek the kedusha, and in a time that we are desperate for hashem to shower us fom his shefa do you think we should alow this tumah to be at our holiest place the mokom of the shechina. look into the sifr
i of the almidei arizal...

20

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Rosen is the chief rabbi of the yiddeshe communithy in Ireleand and is respected throughout the world. He raises a very legitimate issue that should be addressed before the situation deteriorates. When a great rav such as rosen has to spreak out on the issue, you know the bureaucrats who hate catholic mosdos in EY have run amok.

21

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

The situation got even worse when some Rav who is in charge of har habayis initially tried to stop the pope from coming to daven by the kossel if he wore a tzalem. Fortunately, that absurd demand was withdrawn when senior government officials intervened and stopped such a meshuge demand which was incredibly insulting the vatican and Catholics worldwide.

Let him do his Shtik in Mekka.
If he survives it he can come to Israel.

22

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:32 AM chaim Says:

Jewish people wake up. Don't be in denial we are in exile even in israel. we are the most vulnerable in sense of every nation wants to see us wiped out. "one sheep between 70 wolves" we are not allowed to be Misgare Beumos, Don't fight the vatican if you a right or not. it is a dangerous play. by the very end we will give in if we like it or not. They are stronger politicly from israel. so why make a fight.

23

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:32 AM CoffeeRoomChiller Says:

My 7th grade rebbi used to call him "The Dope"

24

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Rosen is the chief rabbi of the yiddeshe communithy in Ireleand and is respected throughout the world. He raises a very legitimate issue that should be addressed before the situation deteriorates. When a great rav such as rosen has to spreak out on the issue, you know the bureaucrats who hate catholic mosdos in EY have run amok.

#20 'respected thruout the world' .Which world your talking about ?in my torah world never heard about him or respected. are you talking about reform ., conservative world, thats not an ehrlicher shomer torah yids world.so , this rabbi is defianately not representative of our 'world'

25

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:02 AM berel Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Stop spreading flase lashon hara against other people. Rabbi Rosen is not reform, and he has more credibility as a scholar on the Torah, than every blogger post here on VIN.

scholar and yiras shomayim are 2 separate things, and by us 'yiras shomayim' counts. shohlar? the pope can also be a scholar

26

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:14 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

And the Jews have a point, too! So this Jew says that all the persecution and killing that went on for 2000 years by the Church against the Jews we have to thank the church as an institution!!!

Not 2000 years. The Church turned around 180 degrees at Vatican II. For 45 years it has been stridently condemning anti-Semitism and has renounced attempts to target Jews for conversion. And it has done this despite the fact that Jews have done almost nothing to either express gratitude, or to admit that there are things in our mesorah that would be considered extremely hostile to Christianity even if that other religion had had a totally benign history as far as Jews were concerned. The Church is different today and it is time that we wake up and realize that.

27

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:33 AM to Richard Nixon Says:

You are a man of great integrity. We must honor our commitments. If the Jewish people would have observed the Nuremberg laws properly there may not have been a holocaust.

28

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Rosen is Orthodox and learned in Ponovitch. The Catholics do not seek conversion of Jews one bit. They just don't want to be spat upon by yeshiva bochurim.

29

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

So we need to pander to the Vatican - which wants to convert us every living moment?

are you living in the 1400's?

30

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
joey Says:

we don't need to recognize Christians in our holy land of the jews, Christianity is a thorn in any sensitive jews heart,.
Also since when is a "Rabbi so worried about the pope? im sure they can find their own advocates, its not a rabbis job, he should be worrying about the status of the frum jewry not about them!

you must not be frum - don't you know we are not allowed to rebel against the goyim? we are in galus and have to be humble. Of course we don't accept their religion but we definitely have to be humble. the Holy Land belongs to Hashem - not to the Jews - He will let us live there when Moshiach comes, but the last 60 years of wars and terrorism tell us something about the current time we live in.

31

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:54 AM Anonymous Says:

before you could make new good relations with somebody the old issues have to be resolved for example stolen property from the bais hamikdosh and stolen kids during world war II otherwise there is no sense to it.

32

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:09 AM Tvi Bar David Says:

The City State of the Vatican is an independent country recognized by the United Nations. The State of Israel, also sovereign and independent, concluded a treaty with the City State of the Vatican and there are currently concerns about the rapidity in which certain representations are being lived up to.

Take the religion out of it, the parties at issue are two separate sovereign countries in a dispute.

33

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:27 AM Berl Says:

n November 2005, Rabbi Rosen was made a Knight Commander of the Order of Gregory the Great in recognition of his contribution to Jewish-Catholic reconciliation (Rabbi Rosen is the first Israeli citizen and the first Orthodox rabbi to receive this honor.) In December 2006, Rabbi Rosen received the Raphael Lemkin Human Rights Award for having founded the organization Rabbis for Human Rights.
Among the many recent issues that Rabbi David Rosen has been quoted on is the caption concerning Pius XII at Yad Vashem. "What Yad Vashem says is not necessarily wrong," conceded Rosen, "but it doesn't give us all the information." Rabbi Rosen quoted eminent historian Martin Gilbert, who says that Pius saved thousands of Jews. [1]
Maybe he is bucking for a job in the Vatican

34

 Jan 17, 2010 at 08:13 AM Shaul in Monsey Says:

As the largest owners of judaica and ancient Jewish artifacts in the world, all stolen from us, the only conversation on the table should be full taxation on your nonprofits too until you return what's ours.

35

 Jan 17, 2010 at 08:30 AM Anonymous Says:

What a idiot, looking for attention in such a negative way,well you can't help it that how it goes, anyway who cares what" RABBI" Rosen says

36

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:08 AM COMMON SENSE Says:

Reply to #26  
Charlie Hall Says:

Not 2000 years. The Church turned around 180 degrees at Vatican II. For 45 years it has been stridently condemning anti-Semitism and has renounced attempts to target Jews for conversion. And it has done this despite the fact that Jews have done almost nothing to either express gratitude, or to admit that there are things in our mesorah that would be considered extremely hostile to Christianity even if that other religion had had a totally benign history as far as Jews were concerned. The Church is different today and it is time that we wake up and realize that.

You are overlooking critical facts. Of course, the church is not what is was in the past. But there are still very serious problems in its attitude toward Jews and anti-Semitism.
First of all, your statement that the church has renounced its goal of conversion is dead wrong. It was only about 3 months ago that the Pope re-affirmed that converting Jews is an essential duty of every Christian.
With respect to anti-Semitism, yes, the church has formally denounced anti-Semitism, but how has it acted in real life. Let us look at just a couple of matters. The Archbishop of Poland continuously makes the most outrageous anti-Semitic pronouncements. The Pope has not said a word about it. Polish radio stations broadcast the most vituperative anti-Semitism. Silence from the Pope.
How about the Pope canceling the excommunication of Bishop Williams, who denies the Holocaust. When this happened, there was an outcry from Jews. But the Pope defended his decision. It was only when the outrage spread throughout the world, and German bishops denounced it that he backed off. Yes, things have changed, but it is hardly "hunky-dory."

37

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

you must not be frum - don't you know we are not allowed to rebel against the goyim? we are in galus and have to be humble. Of course we don't accept their religion but we definitely have to be humble. the Holy Land belongs to Hashem - not to the Jews - He will let us live there when Moshiach comes, but the last 60 years of wars and terrorism tell us something about the current time we live in.

How dare you challenge someone's Frumkeit because you disagree with him. You may be Frum, but it is obvious that you are ignorant. You say that the Holy Land does
not belong to the Jews, it belongs to Hashem. The entire universe belongs to Hashem, but he gave Eretz Yisroel to the Jews. Just pick up a Chumash and you will learn this "Chidush" (Chidush to you, apparently).
Then you say, "Hashem will let us live there when Moshiach comes." What absurdity. It is a Mitzvoh to live in Eretz Yisroel at all times.
You imply that 60 years of war and terrorism means that we should not live in Eretz Yisroel. How about all the years of war during the existence of the Botei Mikdoshim. Does that mean that we should never have lived there?

38

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Charlie Hall Says:

The Vatican has a point here. There is no reason why it should have to negotiate separately regarding every single church property. It doesn't even have to do this in the United States which does not have any specific agreement with the Vatican.

Rabbi Rosen is a former Chief Rabbi of Ireland.

Get your facts straight. The comparison with the US is ridiculous. The US does not own any property in the US claimed by the Vatican.

39

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Richard Nixon Says:

Can't any of you read simple English??? The issue is not how we should relate to the church, whether they deserve to be treated one way or another. The issue is should Israel live up to its commitments or not and like it or not the answer is YES, no ifs ands or buts.

Yes, Israel should live up to its commitments. However, the Vatican has been making demands of Israel that are not part of the original agreement. It is the Vatican's insistence on getting what it is not entitled to which has caused this crisis. But, I guess, Rabbi Rosen, one of the Pope's Knights, has to be loyal to his benefactor and will lie in the process. Moreover, as chairman of the interreligious relations of the AJC, he has to show that the Pope is a good guy. For shame. To lie and make Israel the culprit when the Vatican is the party at fault here is beneath contempt.

40

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

you must not be frum - don't you know we are not allowed to rebel against the goyim? we are in galus and have to be humble. Of course we don't accept their religion but we definitely have to be humble. the Holy Land belongs to Hashem - not to the Jews - He will let us live there when Moshiach comes, but the last 60 years of wars and terrorism tell us something about the current time we live in.

Having a dispute with the Vatican is not rebelling against the Goyim. If a Goy would tell you to go to the ovens, would you say I have to listen because otherwise I am rebelling against the Goyim. Come on, a little common sense goes a long way. A little knowledge about what rebelling means also helps.

41

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:28 PM dirty shirt Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Rosen is the chief rabbi of the yiddeshe communithy in Ireleand and is respected throughout the world. He raises a very legitimate issue that should be addressed before the situation deteriorates. When a great rav such as rosen has to spreak out on the issue, you know the bureaucrats who hate catholic mosdos in EY have run amok.

"Rav Rosen is the chief rabbi of the yiddeshe communithy in Ireleand and is respected throughout the world"

Rosen was the chief rabbi over a total of four synagogues: three in Dublin, one in Cork. Let us not try to enhance this imbeciles image by calling him a chief rabbi that is respected around the world. By whom is he respected? Undoubtedly well received by his vatican masters, but respected? I don't think so.

Let us also try not to enhance our own argument by using language that would be befitting an orthodox jew. You use the words "yiddeshe community". OK you might have us fooled. However, your use of the term "catholic mosdos in EY" is laughable and clearly belies who you really are. It's the modus operandi of "messianic" jews to couch terms like "catholic" with more venerable terms like "mosdos".

42

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:48 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
to Richard Nixon Says:

You are a man of great integrity. We must honor our commitments. If the Jewish people would have observed the Nuremberg laws properly there may not have been a holocaust.

Better have an I.Q. test because your statement is sheer malarkey. The matter of Nuremberg laws in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Austria was insignificant. I was in concentration and born in Austria. The fact is the postwar behavior of the Vatican clergy. You can go on online and check on a Bishop named Alois Hudal who ymach shmoi helped escape the worst of the war criminal, Eichmann, Mengele, Brunner, Stangl and many other. This happened after 1945. The organization ODESSA[Organization der ehemalige Angehoerige de SS] Geneva Switzerland was the first for travel document from the International Red Cross and then Rome which completed the travel arrangement.
Maybe I should quote the Belzer tzichus yuguleini who did not want to talk about the chorbin and did not provide terezim. All you nincompoops who have/find answers are imbecile or cretins. Anyhow your pen name fits your statement

43

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Charlie Hall Says:

The Vatican has a point here. There is no reason why it should have to negotiate separately regarding every single church property. It doesn't even have to do this in the United States which does not have any specific agreement with the Vatican.

Rabbi Rosen is a former Chief Rabbi of Ireland.

Mr. Hall,

How does being the former cheif rabbi of Ireland lend him any credibility? Much more pertinent is that fact that he chose a picture of him praying with the Dalai Lama as a center point of his wab site. I think the fact the e is busy with interfath praying a lot more indicative of his religious bent. Sort of like Avi Weiss, flagarantly ignoring the Rav's issur.

You often mention Ireland as a point of pride, is your name perchance Irish?

44

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Is the catholic religion considered idolatry according to the sheva mitzvos?

45

 Jan 17, 2010 at 09:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

Is the catholic religion considered idolatry according to the sheva mitzvos?

There is a Machlokes Rishonim as to whether Christianity is Avoda Zoro. Some hold that it is because they believe in what they call the "Trinity," which, while unclear even to Christian theologians, implies some kind of Shutfos (partnership). Other Poskim
hold that a belief is Shutfos is Mutar for a non-Jew and that Christianity, if practiced by a non-Jew, is not idolatry,
Interestingly enough, there are Protestant sects who believe that Catholicism promotes idolatry because of its emphasis on statutes of Christian icons, which they see as a belief that the icons have some kind of power.

46

 Jan 18, 2010 at 11:57 AM jewish people Says:

the vatican should give back every piece of property they robbed from the jewish people every item they stole us then they can get the hell out of eretz ysrael

47

 Jan 18, 2010 at 03:21 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

There is a Machlokes Rishonim as to whether Christianity is Avoda Zoro. Some hold that it is because they believe in what they call the "Trinity," which, while unclear even to Christian theologians, implies some kind of Shutfos (partnership). Other Poskim
hold that a belief is Shutfos is Mutar for a non-Jew and that Christianity, if practiced by a non-Jew, is not idolatry,
Interestingly enough, there are Protestant sects who believe that Catholicism promotes idolatry because of its emphasis on statutes of Christian icons, which they see as a belief that the icons have some kind of power.

Anyone who thinks Catholicism is shituf, knows nothing about it. There can be no question that it is avoda zara mamash.

48

 Jan 19, 2010 at 10:42 AM Jimmy37 Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Let them open up their caticombs, libraries and storehouses to us so we can take back all of our Jewish artifacts and then talk about tax exemptions. They're a bunch of cry babies because our existence proves the falsehoods in their beliefs.

We want all our stuff back. The Vatican stole it.

49

 Jan 19, 2010 at 11:41 PM Shamshon Says:

How do you tell if a lawyer is lying? Answer: his lips move.

How do you tell a yeshiva guy knows he has lost an argument? Answer: He makes like a politician and changes the topic and attacks his opponent for something else.

The question is: did Israel make a deal with the Vatican, diplomatic relations in exchange for recognition of Vatican claims on certain properties. No one here deals with that question. All the other stuff may be true but has nothing to do with the question. If Rosen's claim is true we should honor the deal. I despise the Vatican. But if you dont keep your deals no one will make future deals. It is all good and well to talk tough in brookly, but israel has to operate in the real world.

50

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