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Port-au-Pricne - ZAKA Mission to Haiti 'Proudly Desecrating Shabbas'

Published on: January 17, 2010 10:18 AM
By:  Ynet
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Zaka worker in Port au-PrinceZaka worker in Port au-Prince

Port-au-Prince - ZAKA, a rescue team made up of religious volunteers, has been working overtime in the quake-stricken Haitian capital of Port au-Prince. Late Friday night they found a few minutes to conduct Kabalat Shabbat.

“There was not really a Shabbat, but on Friday night we said Kiddush with delegations from Mexico, England, and Scotland,” commander of the ZAKA mission to Haiti, Mati Goldstein, told Ynet.
“With all the hell going on outside, even when things get bad Judaism says we must take a deep breath and go on to save more people.”
Goldstein said cooperation between the international teams, which had arrived from 30 different states, was strengthened by the Sabbath prayer. “We sat with Jordanian security guards, an Israeli team, and people from Qatar and Egypt. It was strange,” he said.
The ZAKA team, comprised of just three people, has been working among the wreckage of a school in Port au-Prince. 

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On Friday we assisted with the rescue of eight people, and yesterday two more were saved,” Goldstein recounted.

He added that despite his experience in aiding in disasters worldwide, the scene of the 7.0-magnitude quake was one of the worst he had observed. “I’ve been to Mumbai, and several other terror attacks, but it’s really hellish here,” he said.
Goldstein added that his team had continued to work throughout Shabbat. “We did everything to save lives, despite Shabbat. People asked, ‘Why are you here? There are no Jews here’, but we are here because the Torah orders us to save lives… We are desecrating Shabbat with pride,” he said.

The rescue worker said the teams were trying to keep morale high despite the carnage. “Yesterday the mood was grim among the teams and the locals, because we were digging and getting nowhere,” he said.
“One of the mission members wanted to raise morale, and we started to sing. The search team was working, the families were standing on the side, and everyone was singing ‘Heveinu Shalom Alechem’ (Trans: We bring peace to you). I had tears in my eyes,”

The ZAKA team is scheduled to remain for an additional two days in order to assist the US team, but they are adamant to obviate their Israeli identity. “The people here see it as very important that the State of Israel has come to help,” Goldstein said.

Zaka worker in Port au-PrinceZaka worker in Port au-Prince


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1

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:21 AM LiBERALISM IS A DISEASE!!! Says:

Just because they 'have to' be mechalel shabbos, doesn't mean it should be treated with such glee.

2

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Kol hakavod to them!

3

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:24 AM Anonymous Says:

shanda and a charpa!

there should be no pride in chilul shabbos, especially in dubious matzovim...

4

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:25 AM Babishka Says:

They are saving lives.

5

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Kechoil Ha'goyim Bies Yisruel!!!!!!

6

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:

what a kiddush hashem!!! so nice to see and hear after hearing all the negativity....if all orhthodox chevra would be busy with goodness like these chevra, the world would be better off.

7

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:40 AM PMO Says:

Maybe it was a stupid thing to say, but it is the message and the actions that are important.

8

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:42 AM Anonymous Says:

I think he could of phrased it better. "with pride" sounds bad.

9

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:46 AM a frum yid Says:

WHAT A SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

can any 1 tell me which "posek " gave them "heter" 2 desecratShabbat

and with " with pride"

next time they want your donation remember they are not a frum org.
They are mechall shabos b’farhesya

10

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:47 AM sof maaseh bemachshava techila Says:

think before you post; this blog is read by all; this article published by yediot is a bait

11

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:

I hope this is not true! They may be using their hearts, but they fail to have pity on themselves. This is pure Chillul Shabbos. It's clearly stated in the Shulchan Aruch. They could have slept and worked through Motzoei Shabbos.

12

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:54 AM Ernst Geredt Says:

And the Torah says: Mechaleleha Mois Yumos...

13

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:06 AM frum? Says:

Are these people frum? To be mechalel shabbos bfarhesia?

It seems, there is no heter for this. Tell me if I am wrong.

14

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:29 AM Anonymous Says:

"To obviate" does not mean to make it obvious. It means to make it unnecessary.

15

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:36 AM Anonymous Says:

The fact is, they are doing something while all of us sit in judgement in our heated homes with running water and fancy food and nice European clothes. Nobody that reads this website has ever lived in true poverty or seen the human misery that existed in Haiti BEFORE the quake, so no one can imagine the complete degredation and utter poverty of the survivors. Forget the wording for a minute and concentrate on the actions. If they saved the life of even one poor soul who was in misery, it is as though they saved an entire world. Surely that must give nachas to the RSHO.
P.S. Next time you flip on a light switch or turn on the faucet, remember that these are LUXURIES to the people of Haiti.

16

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:38 AM Is Zaka frum ? Says:

the only possibility is darkei shalom. similar to Hatzolas heter to respond on shabbos to a guy. but like comment #11 said they could have worked out aarrangement that they would work motzei shab.

17

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:41 AM Nosson Says:

It is a boosha that anyone would question efforts to save lives. Only an am hooretz would say wait until Shabbos is over. Gemoro, Yoma ,Pay dalet/bet: v'chol safek n'fashos doche es haShabbos. In case of any doubt about life, concerns about Shabbos are pushed aside.

18

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
a frum yid Says:

WHAT A SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

can any 1 tell me which "posek " gave them "heter" 2 desecratShabbat

and with " with pride"

next time they want your donation remember they are not a frum org.
They are mechall shabos b’farhesya

it is halachically pemitted to be mechalel shabbos to save lives, and even non-jews if it is for darchei shalom. (and i'm sure they have a posek who answers any halachic shailos that may come up in their organization)
and it should be done with pride. there was a story with rav segal (the manchester rosh yeshiva) who had to go on an ambulance on shabbos and was happy. when asked why he was happy to have to be mechallel shabbos he replied "this is my mitzvah this shabbos and it should be done with simcha"

ZAKA-keep up the good work. an amazing kiddush Hashem!

19

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Chilul Shabbos! Plain and simple.

20

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:43 AM Heter Says:

The heter of chilul shabbos for a nochri, mishum eivah, is only for an issur derabbanan. See Hilchos Shabbos. Siman 330:2 and the comment of the MB #8. and the Biur Halacha. The possible heteirim are 1. 329:2 which is only applicable if a Yid was there; if we never knew that there was a Jew present, the heter is tenuous. Very complicated for we would need to know if there were Jewish students or faculty at the university. 2. Another possible heter is that of Melocho shein tzricha legufah. When the primary intention is not refuah but to prevent harm to Jews such activity would be permitted. I cannot cite a source but have heard this from poskim. But again, if we know there are no Yidden, there is no heter.

21

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Shame on them there is no basis in Halacha for this

22

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:48 AM Daniel in the Forest Says:

I have read an account of the Baal Shem Tov walking too far, cutting wood, starting a fire, and cooking on Shabbos for a woman who had given birth alone in the winter in order to save her and the child's life.
He too was criticized unjustly and taught it is better to save a life than keep Shabbos if one must make a choice. (He did not as I recollect claim to do these things with pride, however.)

23

 Jan 17, 2010 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:

What a shame. Who asked them to go? Aren't there enough Goyim? Couldn't they go and refrain from Chillul Shabbos and Chillul Hashem? In today's day and age, everyone becomes his own Dayon. The person is at best a fool and an Am Haaretz. Unfortunately, the Mishne says "Achad Shogeg V'Achad Mezid B'Chillul Hashem." I for one won't give another cent to Zaka unless they publicly fire this person.

24

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:07 PM Anonymous Says:

is there an inyan of darkei shalom here? they didn't have to put themselves in that situation. i doubt if being mechalel shabbos to save a goy is allowed in this case.

25

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:13 PM ROBERT Says:

Reply to #1  
LiBERALISM IS A DISEASE!!! Says:

Just because they 'have to' be mechalel shabbos, doesn't mean it should be treated with such glee.

i believe you are wrong
when one needs to do melacha on shabbat to save a life you are "Not mechalel" but rather fulfilling ones obligation to the Almighty and sanctifying Gods name

26

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
frum? Says:

Are these people frum? To be mechalel shabbos bfarhesia?

It seems, there is no heter for this. Tell me if I am wrong.

um, ever heard of pikuach nefesh? and yes, it applies even for goyim. the only thing they can't do is keep digging once it's been established that the people underneath are dead.

27

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:17 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #9  
a frum yid Says:

WHAT A SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

can any 1 tell me which "posek " gave them "heter" 2 desecratShabbat

and with " with pride"

next time they want your donation remember they are not a frum org.
They are mechall shabos b’farhesya

as i understand halacha, they are not desecrating shabbat while actively saving lives (jewish or gentile) but rather sanctifying the holy day

sadly you are wrong... no one gave them a heter because they are following halacha as i understand it

28

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:18 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #13  
frum? Says:

Are these people frum? To be mechalel shabbos bfarhesia?

It seems, there is no heter for this. Tell me if I am wrong.

You are wrong !

29

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:19 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #16  
Is Zaka frum ? Says:

the only possibility is darkei shalom. similar to Hatzolas heter to respond on shabbos to a guy. but like comment #11 said they could have worked out aarrangement that they would work motzei shab.

time is of the essence after 4 days under rubble people can not wait till after shabbat !

30

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

first of all there were jews in Haiti and it is possible that there are more jews still trapped. also it is possible that they were only doing melachos derabanan which is certainly mutar in a case of darkei shalom

31

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:24 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

What a shame. Who asked them to go? Aren't there enough Goyim? Couldn't they go and refrain from Chillul Shabbos and Chillul Hashem? In today's day and age, everyone becomes his own Dayon. The person is at best a fool and an Am Haaretz. Unfortunately, the Mishne says "Achad Shogeg V'Achad Mezid B'Chillul Hashem." I for one won't give another cent to Zaka unless they publicly fire this person.

what a selfish and arrogant post....
how would you feel if you needed help in a life threatening circumstance and the response was arent there enough jews to to the job...
i hope you feel ashamed at your post

32

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:32 PM lamdan Says:

the issue of pride stems from the machlokes if chilul shabbos bmakom pikuach nefesh is hutrah or hudcha!!

33

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
a frum yid Says:

WHAT A SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

can any 1 tell me which "posek " gave them "heter" 2 desecratShabbat

and with " with pride"

next time they want your donation remember they are not a frum org.
They are mechall shabos b’farhesya

And next time you need their help, imertza hashem they will not be around to help!

34

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:43 PM Anonymous Says:

The replies to this story make me embarrassed to be frum. Im no crazy left wing MO guy, but some of you are myopic and act like peasants. You don't think ZAKA consulted a posek? If you were a trained rescuer would you nap on Shabbos if you were in Haiti and heard the screams of trapped people? What stupidity.

This is a huge disaster with potentially over 200,000 dead and many more still trapped. These people need all the help they can get and unfortunately ZAKA has expertise in pulling people out of rubble. They were in the area since they had been dealing with the tragedy in Mexico, so they came. What were they supposed to say? No, we're not interested in helping you?

35

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:44 PM Rosh Yeshiva Says:

Were gedolei yisroel consulted on whether shabbos could be desecrated in this instance?

36

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:27 PM Daniel in the Forest Says:

And also to preserve your own life!
For at the time of the Machabees the faithful Jews allowed themselves to be massacred rather than fight on the Sabbath (1 Maccabees 2:35-38); Mathathias and his followers realizing the folly of such a policy decided to defend themselves if attacked on the Sabbath, though they would not assume the offensive (1 Maccabees 2:40-41; 2 Maccabees 8:26)

37

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:49 PM Anonymous Says:

i am sure zaka asked their poskim.

38

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
frum? Says:

Are these people frum? To be mechalel shabbos bfarhesia?

It seems, there is no heter for this. Tell me if I am wrong.

No obviously they are not frum, they must be Reform. A frum person, like yourself, would shuffle back to Flatbush and do nothing (well except sitting on the internet and using food stamps) while casting sideways glances at anyone doing something worthwhile. Thank goodness people such as you have kept the machane pure.

39

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:50 PM part 1 of my thoughts... Says:

to all u foolish posters....who are mocking the zaka team...
halevai-if only all of us can reach the madreiga of these zaka members...giving up all the luxuries they can have at home to go save these poor children..that they shud not be orphans the rest of their lives...to save husbands so that his wife shouldnt be widowed for the rest of her life...doesnt matter how many lives they saved..the fact that they went to save lives is enough of a reason to give them praise...
wat about the kiddush hashem aspect?
People asked, 'Why are you here? There are no Jews here', but we are here because the Torah orders us to save lives… We are desecrating Shabbat with pride," he said.
what a kiddush hashem that was when a goy hears that the torah doesnt just command us to save lives of goyim too...not just someone whoo is a jew...it shows that we go out and help someone even they are not part of us...
the goy that asked that question asked it bec apparently thats what the world thinks...we go help if there are jews that are in danger...BUT NO!! we are helping bec we are a nation of rachamim and a nation that cares for EVERY HUMAN BEING!!
how many times in our lives are we going to have a

40

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:53 PM part 2 of my thoughts... Says:

a chance to make such a kiddush hashem????
so instead of mocking these selfless zaka volenteers out of jealousy...why dont we go off the computer and start helping other people and striving to make such a kiddush hashem????
even if we dont have the opportunity to go to haiti...at least try to make a kiddush hashem locally...and support the zaka organization!!!
shame on you to all those people openly talking lashon hara on such tzaddikim!!!
take care of youself then change the worlds problems!!!!

41

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Is Zaka frum ? Says:

the only possibility is darkei shalom. similar to Hatzolas heter to respond on shabbos to a guy. but like comment #11 said they could have worked out aarrangement that they would work motzei shab.

Yes they should have just told those people in the rubble to hush up and let them rest until Shabbos was over. Those Haitians must be anti-semites or tziyonim for making such problems!

42

 Jan 17, 2010 at 12:54 PM Albert Einstein Says:

When the Chofetz Chaim gave a heter to Jewish boys who were indentured into the Czar's army to eat treif when nothing else was available, he cautioned them not to suck the bones.

When one must be mechallel Shabbos, one does what one must, but one shouldn't brag about it.

Hatzne'a leches im Hashem Elokecha.

43

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:01 PM aaa Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

The fact is, they are doing something while all of us sit in judgement in our heated homes with running water and fancy food and nice European clothes. Nobody that reads this website has ever lived in true poverty or seen the human misery that existed in Haiti BEFORE the quake, so no one can imagine the complete degredation and utter poverty of the survivors. Forget the wording for a minute and concentrate on the actions. If they saved the life of even one poor soul who was in misery, it is as though they saved an entire world. Surely that must give nachas to the RSHO.
P.S. Next time you flip on a light switch or turn on the faucet, remember that these are LUXURIES to the people of Haiti.

the thora still doesnt allow it
even in haiti
p.s. look at zaka website
they dont even hint a word about the cillel shabos

44

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:04 PM a yid Says:

Reply to #17  
Nosson Says:

It is a boosha that anyone would question efforts to save lives. Only an am hooretz would say wait until Shabbos is over. Gemoro, Yoma ,Pay dalet/bet: v'chol safek n'fashos doche es haShabbos. In case of any doubt about life, concerns about Shabbos are pushed aside.

ask ur rebbi pshat
i am sure he will tell u the gmara talks about a yid
that ever the case is they had no rite to say We are desecrating Shabbat with pride,"

45

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:05 PM Anonymous Says:

How wonderful. If its a child molester, someone who steals from the government, or Tropper all we hear is 'dan l'chaf zechus!!!'. But when it comes to people saving lives all we get is righteous indignation and outrage from some people. Disgusting.

46

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Nosson Says:

It is a boosha that anyone would question efforts to save lives. Only an am hooretz would say wait until Shabbos is over. Gemoro, Yoma ,Pay dalet/bet: v'chol safek n'fashos doche es haShabbos. In case of any doubt about life, concerns about Shabbos are pushed aside.

And you are a very big am haaretz definitely. The only heter is darkei shalom. I wouldn't be metzaref them to minyan

47

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:30 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #1  
LiBERALISM IS A DISEASE!!! Says:

Just because they 'have to' be mechalel shabbos, doesn't mean it should be treated with such glee.

To the contrary, they should shout it from the mountaintops! Saving a life overrides Shabat!!!

48

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:

What does Kiddush Hashem mean? Is it that they do whatever he wants so that the goy thinks nicely about him, and if yes then I guess that millions of our ansectors who were killed throughout the generations for not wanting to accept any other religion were not Mekadish Shaim Hashem since the did not do what the goy wanted them to do and therefore the newspaper didn't write nice thing about them!! There is a torah and its laws apply even when laymen people think that they know better, is there one ruv who gave them a hetir? and if yes please post it

49

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:32 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #16  
Is Zaka frum ? Says:

the only possibility is darkei shalom. similar to Hatzolas heter to respond on shabbos to a guy. but like comment #11 said they could have worked out aarrangement that they would work motzei shab.

One could also hold like HaMeiri. Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg z'tz'l did, and so did Rov Soloveitchik z'tz'l.

50

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:51 PM Disgusted Says:

Reply to #35  
Rosh Yeshiva Says:

Were gedolei yisroel consulted on whether shabbos could be desecrated in this instance?

Yes, gedolai yisroel were consulted and gave them clear instructions - as always. Though perhaps it's a pity that they did not instead consult some of the readers of Woz Is Neias, who know better, and would have instructed them to let the goyim die while they had a Shabbos schluf amid the screams.

51

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:04 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't think that we should be judging. Do we know the whole story?? No, we don't. I'm sure they asked a shaila and were told that there is a possibility that there are yidden amongst the trapped. I wonder if the world would respond the way that we have with so much chesed if we needed it. We are an am of Rachmanim. We are Blessed!!

52

 Jan 17, 2010 at 01:30 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

first of all there were jews in Haiti and it is possible that there are more jews still trapped. also it is possible that they were only doing melachos derabanan which is certainly mutar in a case of darkei shalom

The most prominent Jew in Haiti, businessman Gilbert Bigio, has not been heard from since the earthquake.

53

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:06 PM Anonymous Says:

I have no issues with their halachic positions as I assume they asked a competent posek. I did, however, cringe when I read that they are mechalel Shabbos "with pride". Even when permitted, to desecrate the eternal os between Hashem and His nation, is that really something that one does with PRIDE? I can't imagine an American Hatzalah member ever saying something like that. With alacrity and purpose, yes. With pride? What pride is there in being compelled to operate in a shaas hadichak and therefore be mechalel our hold Shabbos?

I just hope there was something lost in translation.

54

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:23 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #40  
part 2 of my thoughts... Says:

a chance to make such a kiddush hashem????
so instead of mocking these selfless zaka volenteers out of jealousy...why dont we go off the computer and start helping other people and striving to make such a kiddush hashem????
even if we dont have the opportunity to go to haiti...at least try to make a kiddush hashem locally...and support the zaka organization!!!
shame on you to all those people openly talking lashon hara on such tzaddikim!!!
take care of youself then change the worlds problems!!!!

great post

these rescuers are holy people

55

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:28 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #42  
Albert Einstein Says:

When the Chofetz Chaim gave a heter to Jewish boys who were indentured into the Czar's army to eat treif when nothing else was available, he cautioned them not to suck the bones.

When one must be mechallel Shabbos, one does what one must, but one shouldn't brag about it.

Hatzne'a leches im Hashem Elokecha.

your premise is wroing
pork is pork even if it is to save a jewish life
we even bentch on yomn kippur if it is medically necessary to eat

on the other hand melacha is melacha.. however doing melacha on shabbat to save a life is not chilul shabbat or forbidden.. in fact as i understand halacha you are Forbidden to NOT TO DO melacha on shabbat to save a human life... the concept of chilul shabbat no longer exists for life saving activities.

56

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:31 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

How wonderful. If its a child molester, someone who steals from the government, or Tropper all we hear is 'dan l'chaf zechus!!!'. But when it comes to people saving lives all we get is righteous indignation and outrage from some people. Disgusting.

Excellent point !

57

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:33 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

And you are a very big am haaretz definitely. The only heter is darkei shalom. I wouldn't be metzaref them to minyan

you are wrong
rabbi feinstein the great sage said a doctor can not only drive to the hospital to minister to a sick person but he can even drive back home while it is still shabbat ..

medical issues and live saving issues are in a different category even if there is a "doubt"

58

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:37 PM Anonymous Says:

To make a kiddush hashem likew this comes one in 100 years. So like the people in Haiti would say--lip it. The staright way of saying it is shut up. Every time a human being does anything good there are jerks that have to put their stupid comments for the world to see. Enough already. It is easy for you to critisize while you stuff your face with cholent and potatoe kugel in your fancy living room.

Did you ask the shailoh if they should go or not? No? So again I ask you to shut up.

Thirdly, about being proud, when someone has to eat on yom kippur because your rov said so you don't say oy vey I'm eating on yom kippur. When the ribino she'll oilemk wants us to do things and it is required by the torah we just do it and don't ask questions. This is like naseh v'nishma. Maybe you people think judiasm is a business but it's stll a religion.

59

 Jan 17, 2010 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

instead of everyone speculating does anyone know concretely what the heter is

60

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:09 PM AuthenticSatmar Says:

They never said any of this. Zaka is a fundraising machine, and they issue such press releases. Their earlier release said they didn't meet the Israeli team because of shabbos, yet they sat with israelis and arabs. Yeah right, just another propaganda story being told by zaka.

61

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
Anonymous Says:

instead of everyone speculating does anyone know concretely what the heter is

i think it is sad you even have to ask

62

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

shanda and a charpa!

there should be no pride in chilul shabbos, especially in dubious matzovim...

Yeah real dubious, non-Jews (some may be pagans) and oy vei is mer non-whites. You should be ashamed and everyone else who has posted negative comments. These men are doing G-ds work and they should have arichas yomim for it.

63

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

I hope this is not true! They may be using their hearts, but they fail to have pity on themselves. This is pure Chillul Shabbos. It's clearly stated in the Shulchan Aruch. They could have slept and worked through Motzoei Shabbos.

Yes, and while they slept others would have died. duh ...

64

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:42 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #42  
Albert Einstein Says:

When the Chofetz Chaim gave a heter to Jewish boys who were indentured into the Czar's army to eat treif when nothing else was available, he cautioned them not to suck the bones.

When one must be mechallel Shabbos, one does what one must, but one shouldn't brag about it.

Hatzne'a leches im Hashem Elokecha.

To the contrary, when Shabat must be violated for the sake of pikuach nefesh, the most distinguished person in the community gets the honor of the violation!

65

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:44 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #55  
Robert Says:

your premise is wroing
pork is pork even if it is to save a jewish life
we even bentch on yomn kippur if it is medically necessary to eat

on the other hand melacha is melacha.. however doing melacha on shabbat to save a life is not chilul shabbat or forbidden.. in fact as i understand halacha you are Forbidden to NOT TO DO melacha on shabbat to save a human life... the concept of chilul shabbat no longer exists for life saving activities.

It is actually a machloket whether someone who is engaged in saving a life on Shabat needs to minimize the amount of melachah and/or rabbinic prohibitions that are violated. I've met people who have gotten psaks that one should try to minimize, and I've also met people who have gotten psaks that they should not worry.

66

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:57 PM COMMON SENSE Says:

Looking at the comments by some bloggers, it seems that we are blessed with an incredible number of Poskim. Unfortunately, it only "seems" that way. What is painfully obvious is that we are "blessed" with a bunch of Amoratzim and Loshon Hora people.
Here are people giving their "two cents worth" (It's just an expression, since their opinions are not even worth two cents) on a complicated Halachic question that Poskim have struggled with for ages. Yet, these people are able to give an instant Psak. More shamefully, they are saying Loshon Hora on Zaka, a wonderful organization. There is no question in my mind that Zaka did what they did only after consulting with a most reputable Posek. .
As for doing what they did with pride, why not? People who criticize them for saying they did it with pride do not understand a fundamental concept. When a person is permitted to do a Melocho on Shabbos, he is doing what Hashem requires. The same Torah that says that one may not do a Melocho on Shabbos also says that there are circumstances where one may, or must, do a Melocho on Shabbos. Thus, someone who does a permitted Melocho on Shabbos is following the Torah and has a right to be proud.

67

 Jan 17, 2010 at 03:58 PM mottel Says:

I liked the point about lekav zechus - how come every crook gets kaf zechus and not erliche yidden who are being mekadesh shem shamayim.

As for the person who said "wait until motzei shabbos"!!! Gee I hope nobody in your family needs an ambulance on shabbos as you'll make them wait!

They could have chosen their words better - or been misquoted BUT...
Think Reb Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev. If you see a yid who is doing somethin which would require a proper psak from a posek, assume he has such a psak. Hayetohen a yid would do something wrong?

As for all the laydigers sitting here saying it's ossur - please get a life! An organization such as zaka has it's rabonim and poskin and doesn't rely on you to say what is kosher or not .

Lastly many people - both pro-heter or pro-osur - misquote torah on these comments.

So stop the sinas chinam, DO NOT judge a fellow until you reach his shoes, get off the internet and say tehillim for G-d's creations who are in tzaar

68

 Jan 17, 2010 at 04:24 PM jewinjerusalem Says:

Reply to #47  
Charlie Hall Says:

To the contrary, they should shout it from the mountaintops! Saving a life overrides Shabat!!!

Sorry Charlie, but you are wrong. So is Robert and many other posters here. The halacha is clear. It is assur to be mechallel shabbos in such a case. איבה [=eiva] only permits an issur d'rabbonon. Sometimes there are other heterim as others have commented. certainly it would have been better not to have traveled to haiti and been in such a situation.
You Charlie, and those that agree with you, are megale panim bTorah shelo kehalacha. OK, I'll be dan lkaf zchus. You are just a plain simple am ha'aretz. I'll know in the future not to rely on anything you say.

69

 Jan 17, 2010 at 04:37 PM Anonymous Says:

May you all live long and healthy lives. However should there ever be a misfortune in your life where you require the assistance of a gentile, some of you would deserve it if he were to say: "Sorry , it's Sunday, my day of rest. You're on your own."

70

 Jan 17, 2010 at 04:45 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #66  
COMMON SENSE Says:

Looking at the comments by some bloggers, it seems that we are blessed with an incredible number of Poskim. Unfortunately, it only "seems" that way. What is painfully obvious is that we are "blessed" with a bunch of Amoratzim and Loshon Hora people.
Here are people giving their "two cents worth" (It's just an expression, since their opinions are not even worth two cents) on a complicated Halachic question that Poskim have struggled with for ages. Yet, these people are able to give an instant Psak. More shamefully, they are saying Loshon Hora on Zaka, a wonderful organization. There is no question in my mind that Zaka did what they did only after consulting with a most reputable Posek. .
As for doing what they did with pride, why not? People who criticize them for saying they did it with pride do not understand a fundamental concept. When a person is permitted to do a Melocho on Shabbos, he is doing what Hashem requires. The same Torah that says that one may not do a Melocho on Shabbos also says that there are circumstances where one may, or must, do a Melocho on Shabbos. Thus, someone who does a permitted Melocho on Shabbos is following the Torah and has a right to be proud.

Well said
i wish there was more common sense like yourself.

71

 Jan 17, 2010 at 04:58 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #68  
jewinjerusalem Says:

Sorry Charlie, but you are wrong. So is Robert and many other posters here. The halacha is clear. It is assur to be mechallel shabbos in such a case. איבה [=eiva] only permits an issur d'rabbonon. Sometimes there are other heterim as others have commented. certainly it would have been better not to have traveled to haiti and been in such a situation.
You Charlie, and those that agree with you, are megale panim bTorah shelo kehalacha. OK, I'll be dan lkaf zchus. You are just a plain simple am ha'aretz. I'll know in the future not to rely on anything you say.

not to worry mr jew in jerusalem
i am not a rabbi nor do i issue "psak"
i do know however that halacha respects human life ( even gentile )
and there are times of emergency when time is critical.. while people like you talk action needs to be taken or people die..

saving life on shabbat is a fulfillment of Gods law and sanctification of the holy day.. to do otherwise is a sin.

having read charlies many posts i believe he is both a scholar and righteous...
name calling him such as "simple am ha'aretz" that you use pejoratively denigrates whatever you write to that of worthless.


72

 Jan 17, 2010 at 05:20 PM Anonymous Says:

This is not the first instance of Zaka being mechalel Shabbos.

They were Mechalele Shabbos in Mumbei, even though they were aware that no one was found alive in the Chabad House, they arrived hours after the house was cleared. They drove to the morgue and I have even heard unconfirmed reports that they were "smoking".

Shame on Zaka. We need to remember that the Torah decides what is a good deed and chesed and what is a foolish imitation.

Selfless, yes, orthodox, no!

73

 Jan 17, 2010 at 05:25 PM Anonymous Says:

to number 22 just to get the story straight it happened with the Alter Rebbe on Yom Kippur and was told over in the maamer of Yud Shvat as an example of true ahavas yisroel that even though he could of sent someone else he went himself to be mikayem the mitzvah.

74

 Jan 17, 2010 at 05:34 PM Anonymous Says:

I just spoke to my Rabbi at Mincha and he said that as far as he knows that the heter of darchei shalom is only for an issur d'rabonon, and also nio-one asked the Zaka team to fly into the darchei shalom stae in Haiti -- they could have stayed home, I wonder which poisek Zaka asked.

75

 Jan 17, 2010 at 05:34 PM Ben Says:

To the idiots and unlearned who are condemning them: Their pride in the desecration of shabbos is pride in the Torah's teaching that to save one life one may desecrate the most sacred of commandments. Imagine how much one life (Jew or non-Jew) means to G-d and now multiply that with hundreds of thousands. If you ever wanted to meet a saint just meet anyone from the Zaka (or other) organizations.

The commenters on this website bring shame to Torah way of life and may your actions only affect your idiot selves.

76

 Jan 17, 2010 at 05:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Go to Hilchos siman 330 and its clear that only in a real case of darchei shalom (which means in plain english that without the reaction of helping the goyim there would be a huge chillul Hashem) then an issur Drabbonon is muttar but NOT an issur min hatorah.

And pikuach nefesh is only L'maan a yid. I hate to say it, and its not political corrrect -- and even in a great tradgedy like in Haiti.

I sure hope ZAKA will explain themselves.

Find out what Hatzalah in NY does when they get a call when they are sure its not from Mishlaunu .... they will send a 911 ambulance or even if they have to go, its only because they will lose their licence, whereas here no-one asked ZAKA to arrive in Haiti in time for Shabbos.

Hashem Yeracheim

77

 Jan 17, 2010 at 05:51 PM farrockgrandm Says:

I recall R'Moshe Heinemann, more than 20 years ago, expressing this very eloquently:
It's not that we are maikel(lenient) with the laws of Shabbos, but that we are machmir(more stringent) with the laws of pikuach nefesh (saving lives)!

78

 Jan 17, 2010 at 05:39 PM David Says:

I just spoke to my Rabbi at Mincha and he was clear Darkei sholom is a heter on an issur d'rabonnon only. And he said this is not a situation of darchei sholom because no-one would have said boo if ZAKA would have stayed in Israel.

Unless their were jews to be saved where Zaka was actually operating and there was even a small chance to save them, to be oiver on a doirasssa is certainly forbidden!!

79

 Jan 17, 2010 at 06:24 PM Frumer Says:

Is there any Heter to put yourself in a position to be Mechalel Shabbos (hidden or in public) in order to save Goim ?(As far as news goes that there is no yidden) I'm not saying that these Chevra are doing anything wrong by going to save lives no matter who it should be Kol Hakavod! but Halacha is Halacha

80

 Jan 17, 2010 at 06:32 PM Joey Says:

Wasn't this mechalel shabbos rushed to hospital in pain?! I wonder why!!! Mechalel shem shomyim beyad Rama! Chutzpah!

81

 Jan 17, 2010 at 06:55 PM gavi Says:

for those who say that aivah only exempts rabbinic prohibitions, maybe zaka was relying on the chassam sofer zatzal's psak (YD 131) that the exemption to save a nonjews life out of fear of enmity, even applies to deoraysahs, or perhaps that of the meiri who states that their is no distinction between a jew and a non-jew who keeps sheva mitzvos in the context of pikuach nefesh, and if they held it was permitted, or even pikuach nefesh, than they would have grounds to be proud. violating shabbos for pikuach nefesh is a tremendous mitzvah, the rambam zatzal (i believe, although i dont have the sefer im quoting this from in front of me right now so ill have to double check the source) states that in a case of pikuach nefesh we have the most respected men of the community violate shabbos because of how great we value pikuach nefesh , i apologize in advance
tihiyeh mitalmidei shel aharon- gavi

82

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
jewinjerusalem Says:

Sorry Charlie, but you are wrong. So is Robert and many other posters here. The halacha is clear. It is assur to be mechallel shabbos in such a case. איבה [=eiva] only permits an issur d'rabbonon. Sometimes there are other heterim as others have commented. certainly it would have been better not to have traveled to haiti and been in such a situation.
You Charlie, and those that agree with you, are megale panim bTorah shelo kehalacha. OK, I'll be dan lkaf zchus. You are just a plain simple am ha'aretz. I'll know in the future not to rely on anything you say.

Wow, another Posek. We have so many of them. So tell me, smart one, did the Zaka people do a Melocho D'Orayso? You assume they did. However, if I were a betting man, I would bet that you don't even know the difference. In any event, you have no idea what the Zaka people did, so how you can you say that it was D'Orayso?
I'm always amazed that there are so many people with opinions on matters they know nothing about. Instant opinions, like instant tea or instant coffee, it just takes a few minutes to brew and no thinking is required.

83

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
LiBERALISM IS A DISEASE!!! Says:

Just because they 'have to' be mechalel shabbos, doesn't mean it should be treated with such glee.

If it's Mutar to do a Melocho on Shabbos, it's not chilul shabos. So, they can treat it with glee.

84

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

This is not the first instance of Zaka being mechalel Shabbos.

They were Mechalele Shabbos in Mumbei, even though they were aware that no one was found alive in the Chabad House, they arrived hours after the house was cleared. They drove to the morgue and I have even heard unconfirmed reports that they were "smoking".

Shame on Zaka. We need to remember that the Torah decides what is a good deed and chesed and what is a foolish imitation.

Selfless, yes, orthodox, no!

That's right, Torah decides. This means that their Poskim, not you, decide.

85

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

I just spoke to my Rabbi at Mincha and he said that as far as he knows that the heter of darchei shalom is only for an issur d'rabonon, and also nio-one asked the Zaka team to fly into the darchei shalom stae in Haiti -- they could have stayed home, I wonder which poisek Zaka asked.

You're right, they could have stayed home like you instead of making a Kiddush Hashem. Of course, it's easier to stay home and do nothing. Unfortunately, that it what many people do. While they're home with nothing worthwhile to do, they write terrible Loshon Hora on the Internet. Yes, you have it right, Zaka could have stayed home and blogged Loshon Horo like you.

86

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:25 PM Babishka Says:

ZAKA is proud to be a part of the rescue effort of saving human life.

YNet is proud that Yidden are mechallel Shabbos.

87

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:31 PM COMMON SENSE Says:

Reply to #76  
Anonymous Says:

Go to Hilchos siman 330 and its clear that only in a real case of darchei shalom (which means in plain english that without the reaction of helping the goyim there would be a huge chillul Hashem) then an issur Drabbonon is muttar but NOT an issur min hatorah.

And pikuach nefesh is only L'maan a yid. I hate to say it, and its not political corrrect -- and even in a great tradgedy like in Haiti.

I sure hope ZAKA will explain themselves.

Find out what Hatzalah in NY does when they get a call when they are sure its not from Mishlaunu .... they will send a 911 ambulance or even if they have to go, its only because they will lose their licence, whereas here no-one asked ZAKA to arrive in Haiti in time for Shabbos.

Hashem Yeracheim

So you think that you can pasken difficult Shailos by going to Hilchos Siman 330 or whatever. Well, then, since any of us who can read Hebrew can look up any Halocho in Shulchan Orech, why do we need Poskim? Perhaps it's because you cannot pasken Shailos just by looking in Shulchan Orech; one needs a Posek who fully understands the Halocho and the facts. According to your reasoning, we can all pasken Shailos without Poskim. Wait, haven't I heard this before? Oh, yes "Kol Hoeyda Kulom Kedoshim." We don't need Moshe Rabeinu, said Korach.

88

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

I just spoke to my Rabbi at Mincha and he said that as far as he knows that the heter of darchei shalom is only for an issur d'rabonon, and also nio-one asked the Zaka team to fly into the darchei shalom stae in Haiti -- they could have stayed home, I wonder which poisek Zaka asked.

Your rav is either ignorant of halacha or is living on another planet. The media reported that the Zakka team rescued several victims on shabbos and savings lives, whether jews or goyim, always take priority over everything else. Please save your ameteur paskining and your rav's misinformation to for another time (and perhaps go learn a yiddeshe vort in the interim).

89

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

I just spoke to my Rabbi at Mincha and he said that as far as he knows that the heter of darchei shalom is only for an issur d'rabonon, and also nio-one asked the Zaka team to fly into the darchei shalom stae in Haiti -- they could have stayed home, I wonder which poisek Zaka asked.

Ever think maybe Zaka came because they (very unfortunately) have more experience in this sort of search and rescue setting than most teams do because they have had to deal with the results of terror attacks many times over?? I wonder if you sanctimonious kugel-fressers are somewhat less than concerned about the Haitians because they are poor black goyim. Your lack of compassion is disgusting. And this article makes me determined to give MORE to Zaka, not less.

90

 Jan 17, 2010 at 07:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Frumer Says:

Is there any Heter to put yourself in a position to be Mechalel Shabbos (hidden or in public) in order to save Goim ?(As far as news goes that there is no yidden) I'm not saying that these Chevra are doing anything wrong by going to save lives no matter who it should be Kol Hakavod! but Halacha is Halacha

There is no difference in saving a human life between a jew or a goy. Haven't we learned from the shoah about goyim risking their lives to save jews from death in the gas chambers. Yet there are some mindless jews tonight who seem to delight in debating whether Zakia should have let the goyim die so as not to possibly be mechallel shabbos. What a chillul hashem.

91

 Jan 17, 2010 at 08:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #77  
farrockgrandm Says:

I recall R'Moshe Heinemann, more than 20 years ago, expressing this very eloquently:
It's not that we are maikel(lenient) with the laws of Shabbos, but that we are machmir(more stringent) with the laws of pikuach nefesh (saving lives)!

Great comment because now that we are talking about being Machmir, all of the right-wingers will be on board.

92

 Jan 17, 2010 at 08:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Frumer Says:

Is there any Heter to put yourself in a position to be Mechalel Shabbos (hidden or in public) in order to save Goim ?(As far as news goes that there is no yidden) I'm not saying that these Chevra are doing anything wrong by going to save lives no matter who it should be Kol Hakavod! but Halacha is Halacha

Yes, Halacha is Halacha. And foolishness is foolishness. So, Halacha is Halacha. But what is the Halacha in this situation. You can be sure of one thing. Those who know Halacha are not blogging here (or anywhere).

93

 Jan 17, 2010 at 08:45 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't get it why all the posters questioning the zaka volunteers are looking into halacha if it is permissable. Where all the posters supporting the zaka just go by their feelings and keep on throwing such shameful comments like shame on u, idiot, selfish, am huaretzim, dumb! The question everyone is asking is wether this was allowed by the laws of the torah. If you believe they did right, then answer by halacha! Don't attack personally, its just shows that u have no knoledge. So now anyone who wants to post get to the facts!

94

 Jan 17, 2010 at 08:46 PM Geshmak Says:

I think the Haitians are from the Aseret Hashvatim.

95

 Jan 17, 2010 at 08:47 PM Chaim Says:

If only the residents of Monsey or New Square would go to Haiti and save lives, it would change our image throughout the world. We certainly have the money, time and knowledge to help others, yet we refuse to look beyond Route 306.

96

 Jan 17, 2010 at 09:04 PM esther Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

This is not the first instance of Zaka being mechalel Shabbos.

They were Mechalele Shabbos in Mumbei, even though they were aware that no one was found alive in the Chabad House, they arrived hours after the house was cleared. They drove to the morgue and I have even heard unconfirmed reports that they were "smoking".

Shame on Zaka. We need to remember that the Torah decides what is a good deed and chesed and what is a foolish imitation.

Selfless, yes, orthodox, no!

how would you fell if i posted "unconfirmed reports" about you on vin?

97

 Jan 17, 2010 at 09:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Why would anyone here even have the hava amina to think they didnt check with their poskim and follow halacha to the letter all the time as well as saving lives and being mekadesh shem shamayim?

anyone saying otherwise, unless they were there at the scene, is probably saying loshon hora..

While I personally do not know these these finer mentchen i am sure that they did everything kdas ukidin.. i have absolutely no chashash otherwise..
may the ribono shell oilam bless them.

99

 Jan 17, 2010 at 09:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #93  
Anonymous Says:

I don't get it why all the posters questioning the zaka volunteers are looking into halacha if it is permissable. Where all the posters supporting the zaka just go by their feelings and keep on throwing such shameful comments like shame on u, idiot, selfish, am huaretzim, dumb! The question everyone is asking is wether this was allowed by the laws of the torah. If you believe they did right, then answer by halacha! Don't attack personally, its just shows that u have no knoledge. So now anyone who wants to post get to the facts!

one of the great answers of the gemara is "eilu veilu divrei elokim chaim"
there is often disputes as to halacha

let me post a halacha right now
saving lives is halachically correct and an imperative

if you disagree with that then show me a source and we can then honorably disagree otherwise your biases are showing as are mine

100

 Jan 17, 2010 at 09:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #94  
Geshmak Says:

I think the Haitians are from the Aseret Hashvatim.

on what basis do you say that?

101

 Jan 17, 2010 at 09:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Is Zaka frum ? Says:

the only possibility is darkei shalom. similar to Hatzolas heter to respond on shabbos to a guy. but like comment #11 said they could have worked out aarrangement that they would work motzei shab.

wait until after shabbos? someone i know died because she was having a heart attack on shabbos afternoon and her daughter didnt let her call hatzalah until after shabbos. she called right after havdalah and by the time hatzalah got there she was dead!

102

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM OK, he made a mistake Says:

One guy says something to the press and people go crazy about it, I would guess that the guy made a mistake when he said "with pride", which does sound wrong in my view, but he already said it, now what? People make mistakes, I doubt that he meant it. Next?

103

 Jan 17, 2010 at 10:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #100  
Anonymous Says:

on what basis do you say that?

The Igbo tribe of Nigeria,maong which lived a number of jews, were among the african tribal groups who originally populated what is no Hati over a thousand years ago, The gibo jews have claimed descent to several of the shafatim inlcuding Ephraim, Naphtali, Menasheh, Levi, Zevulun and Gad.

104

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:58 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #103  
Anonymous Says:

The Igbo tribe of Nigeria,maong which lived a number of jews, were among the african tribal groups who originally populated what is no Hati over a thousand years ago, The gibo jews have claimed descent to several of the shafatim inlcuding Ephraim, Naphtali, Menasheh, Levi, Zevulun and Gad.

They can claim whatever they like. You're the fool who believes them. There is still no heter to be mechalel shabbos for them.

105

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:57 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #99  
Anonymous Says:

one of the great answers of the gemara is "eilu veilu divrei elokim chaim"
there is often disputes as to halacha

let me post a halacha right now
saving lives is halachically correct and an imperative

if you disagree with that then show me a source and we can then honorably disagree otherwise your biases are showing as are mine

First show a source that supports your claim. The sources against you are all over shas and poskim. There is no machlokes here; there is NO opinion that permits this. You are neither Beis Hillel nor Beis Shammai; you are stam an am ho'oretz, and your opinion is NOT divrei Elokim chayim. There are shiv'im ponim latorah, but there are also shiv'im ochor.

106

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:54 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #97  
Anonymous Says:

Why would anyone here even have the hava amina to think they didnt check with their poskim and follow halacha to the letter all the time as well as saving lives and being mekadesh shem shamayim?

anyone saying otherwise, unless they were there at the scene, is probably saying loshon hora..

While I personally do not know these these finer mentchen i am sure that they did everything kdas ukidin.. i have absolutely no chashash otherwise..
may the ribono shell oilam bless them.

Because any posek would have told them to arrange not to be there on shabbos.

107

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:53 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #94  
Geshmak Says:

I think the Haitians are from the Aseret Hashvatim.

The gemoro says that the aseres hashvotim had no Jewish descendants.

108

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:52 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #90  
Anonymous Says:

There is no difference in saving a human life between a jew or a goy. Haven't we learned from the shoah about goyim risking their lives to save jews from death in the gas chambers. Yet there are some mindless jews tonight who seem to delight in debating whether Zakia should have let the goyim die so as not to possibly be mechallel shabbos. What a chillul hashem.

There certainly is a difference. The difference is fundamental. That is what Torah says, and if you don't believe it then you can go to gehenom. The "shoah" is not a source of halacha. A chilul hashem is when someone not only breaks shabbos but publicises it and says he's proud of it, and a bunch of supposedly orthodox Jews cheer him on. Chilul shabbos befarhesya is BY DEFINITION chilul hashem.

109

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:49 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #88  
Anonymous Says:

Your rav is either ignorant of halacha or is living on another planet. The media reported that the Zakka team rescued several victims on shabbos and savings lives, whether jews or goyim, always take priority over everything else. Please save your ameteur paskining and your rav's misinformation to for another time (and perhaps go learn a yiddeshe vort in the interim).

No, it doesn't. You're the one who is ignorant of halacha, and on top of it have the chutzpah to think you know better than a rov.

110

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:45 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #73  
Anonymous Says:

to number 22 just to get the story straight it happened with the Alter Rebbe on Yom Kippur and was told over in the maamer of Yud Shvat as an example of true ahavas yisroel that even though he could of sent someone else he went himself to be mikayem the mitzvah.

There was, of course, one crucial difference: the woman was a bas yisroel. Had she been a nochris he would not have done it, because it would have been an aveira and not a mitzvah.

111

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:43 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #71  
Robert Says:

not to worry mr jew in jerusalem
i am not a rabbi nor do i issue "psak"
i do know however that halacha respects human life ( even gentile )
and there are times of emergency when time is critical.. while people like you talk action needs to be taken or people die..

saving life on shabbat is a fulfillment of Gods law and sanctification of the holy day.. to do otherwise is a sin.

having read charlies many posts i believe he is both a scholar and righteous...
name calling him such as "simple am ha'aretz" that you use pejoratively denigrates whatever you write to that of worthless.


As a wise man said, the problem isn't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so. You need to open a shulchon oruch and learn a Jewish word, because what you "know" is just not so.

112

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:40 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #66  
COMMON SENSE Says:

Looking at the comments by some bloggers, it seems that we are blessed with an incredible number of Poskim. Unfortunately, it only "seems" that way. What is painfully obvious is that we are "blessed" with a bunch of Amoratzim and Loshon Hora people.
Here are people giving their "two cents worth" (It's just an expression, since their opinions are not even worth two cents) on a complicated Halachic question that Poskim have struggled with for ages. Yet, these people are able to give an instant Psak. More shamefully, they are saying Loshon Hora on Zaka, a wonderful organization. There is no question in my mind that Zaka did what they did only after consulting with a most reputable Posek. .
As for doing what they did with pride, why not? People who criticize them for saying they did it with pride do not understand a fundamental concept. When a person is permitted to do a Melocho on Shabbos, he is doing what Hashem requires. The same Torah that says that one may not do a Melocho on Shabbos also says that there are circumstances where one may, or must, do a Melocho on Shabbos. Thus, someone who does a permitted Melocho on Shabbos is following the Torah and has a right to be proud.

Except that the Torah does NOT permit melocho for this purpose. The halacha is clear, from an explicit mishna right through to the Shulchon Oruch, the Mogen Avrohom, and the Taz. All of them agree that there is no heter to be mechalel shabbos to save a nochri, and certainly darkei sholom doesn't justify chilul shabbos, and they dismiss the possibility of eivoh. The heter mishum eivoh only arises in the 19th century; it applies only when there really is a fear of eivoh, which doesn't apply here, and even when it does apply one has NO right to be proud of it.

113

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:29 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #50  
Disgusted Says:

Yes, gedolai yisroel were consulted and gave them clear instructions - as always. Though perhaps it's a pity that they did not instead consult some of the readers of Woz Is Neias, who know better, and would have instructed them to let the goyim die while they had a Shabbos schluf amid the screams.

Which gedolei yisroel were they? If you know that they were consulted, then surely you know their names. Don't you? Or are you just making things up?

114

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:28 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #49  
Charlie Hall Says:

One could also hold like HaMeiri. Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg z'tz'l did, and so did Rov Soloveitchik z'tz'l.

המגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה...אין לו חלק לעולם הבא

115

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:26 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #47  
Charlie Hall Says:

To the contrary, they should shout it from the mountaintops! Saving a life overrides Shabat!!!

You know perfectly well that that only applies to a ben bris. You're not an am ho'oretz, you're just a deliberate megaleh ponim batorah shelo kehalacha.

116

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:23 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #39  
part 1 of my thoughts... Says:

to all u foolish posters....who are mocking the zaka team...
halevai-if only all of us can reach the madreiga of these zaka members...giving up all the luxuries they can have at home to go save these poor children..that they shud not be orphans the rest of their lives...to save husbands so that his wife shouldnt be widowed for the rest of her life...doesnt matter how many lives they saved..the fact that they went to save lives is enough of a reason to give them praise...
wat about the kiddush hashem aspect?
People asked, 'Why are you here? There are no Jews here', but we are here because the Torah orders us to save lives… We are desecrating Shabbat with pride," he said.
what a kiddush hashem that was when a goy hears that the torah doesnt just command us to save lives of goyim too...not just someone whoo is a jew...it shows that we go out and help someone even they are not part of us...
the goy that asked that question asked it bec apparently thats what the world thinks...we go help if there are jews that are in danger...BUT NO!! we are helping bec we are a nation of rachamim and a nation that cares for EVERY HUMAN BEING!!
how many times in our lives are we going to have a

Impressing goyim is not a heter for chilul shabbos

117

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:21 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

The replies to this story make me embarrassed to be frum. Im no crazy left wing MO guy, but some of you are myopic and act like peasants. You don't think ZAKA consulted a posek? If you were a trained rescuer would you nap on Shabbos if you were in Haiti and heard the screams of trapped people? What stupidity.

This is a huge disaster with potentially over 200,000 dead and many more still trapped. These people need all the help they can get and unfortunately ZAKA has expertise in pulling people out of rubble. They were in the area since they had been dealing with the tragedy in Mexico, so they came. What were they supposed to say? No, we're not interested in helping you?

That's right, I don't believe they consulted a posek. And as a result they were mechalel shabbos befarhesiah.

118

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:20 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #32  
lamdan Says:

the issue of pride stems from the machlokes if chilul shabbos bmakom pikuach nefesh is hutrah or hudcha!!

Oy, what a lamdan you are NOT. There is no such issue here, because lechol hade'os it is NEITHER hutra nor dechuya.

119

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:14 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

um, ever heard of pikuach nefesh? and yes, it applies even for goyim. the only thing they can't do is keep digging once it's been established that the people underneath are dead.

No, it doesn't. That is the unanimous view of all tana'im, amora'im, rishonim, and acharonim. But I suppose you know better than them.

120

 Jan 18, 2010 at 04:59 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #17  
Nosson Says:

It is a boosha that anyone would question efforts to save lives. Only an am hooretz would say wait until Shabbos is over. Gemoro, Yoma ,Pay dalet/bet: v'chol safek n'fashos doche es haShabbos. In case of any doubt about life, concerns about Shabbos are pushed aside.

You am ho'oretz. Go look in Shulchon Oruch. There is no heter for what they did.

121

 Jan 18, 2010 at 02:04 AM you don't know anything! Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

Wow, another Posek. We have so many of them. So tell me, smart one, did the Zaka people do a Melocho D'Orayso? You assume they did. However, if I were a betting man, I would bet that you don't even know the difference. In any event, you have no idea what the Zaka people did, so how you can you say that it was D'Orayso?
I'm always amazed that there are so many people with opinions on matters they know nothing about. Instant opinions, like instant tea or instant coffee, it just takes a few minutes to brew and no thinking is required.

Good post! FYI, I am NOT a Posek, but I can tell you this. ZAKA is the best organization there is. B"H they are there when it is needed. I am (unpaid, obviously) in the Chevra Kedisha (how many of you idiots who seem to have all the answers do this job?) & just from what I do, I see how horrific it must be for ZAKA members every damn day in EY.

So Halacha aside (because WE ARE NOT PASKENING SHAALOHS HERE!!!) what they are doing is great. It is between them & the ZAKA Poskim to decide what they can do on Shabbos. So people, either join me in bringing Yidden to Kevurah (no?? too sensitive to do this work??) or SHUT UP! Show some Hakoros HaTov to the people who preserve Halacha in the most appalling way. Donate some of your cash! When you buy that new, warm coat or your daughter gets yet another pair of those fancy Uggs boots, maybe take the same amount & put it in a jar marked ZAKA. When it's full, send off a nice check. Stop criticizing & DO SOMETHING!

122

 Jan 18, 2010 at 03:39 AM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #103  
Anonymous Says:

The Igbo tribe of Nigeria,maong which lived a number of jews, were among the african tribal groups who originally populated what is no Hati over a thousand years ago, The gibo jews have claimed descent to several of the shafatim inlcuding Ephraim, Naphtali, Menasheh, Levi, Zevulun and Gad.

i don't know where you got this tidbit of information but it is nonsense. The original inhabitants of Hispanola (the island shared by Haiti and the Dominican Republic) were Taino indians. All the Africans in Haiti and elsewhere in the Caribbean were brought as slaves in the 17th and 18th centuries of the Common Era. The Igbos of southern Nigeria, some of whom may have been brought to Haiti as slaves, are devout Christians.

123

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
part 1 of my thoughts... Says:

to all u foolish posters....who are mocking the zaka team...
halevai-if only all of us can reach the madreiga of these zaka members...giving up all the luxuries they can have at home to go save these poor children..that they shud not be orphans the rest of their lives...to save husbands so that his wife shouldnt be widowed for the rest of her life...doesnt matter how many lives they saved..the fact that they went to save lives is enough of a reason to give them praise...
wat about the kiddush hashem aspect?
People asked, 'Why are you here? There are no Jews here', but we are here because the Torah orders us to save lives… We are desecrating Shabbat with pride," he said.
what a kiddush hashem that was when a goy hears that the torah doesnt just command us to save lives of goyim too...not just someone whoo is a jew...it shows that we go out and help someone even they are not part of us...
the goy that asked that question asked it bec apparently thats what the world thinks...we go help if there are jews that are in danger...BUT NO!! we are helping bec we are a nation of rachamim and a nation that cares for EVERY HUMAN BEING!!
how many times in our lives are we going to have a

stop being so naive the reason he says were proud to be mechalel shabbos is to look good in the eyes of the non jews to be able to get MONEY that and that only is on his and most of the minds of zaka sad but its true

124

 Jan 18, 2010 at 08:48 AM Asher Buchwalter Says:

The Arabs are prepararing suicide murderers and Eretz sent a fully equipped field hospital which delivered a baby and I am sure will save more lives. We should be proud of our mesorah

125

 Jan 18, 2010 at 10:08 AM כבוד שבת Says:

כאשר מיסדים חברה ע"י אנשים בלי יראת שמים, ורצים לתקשורת להראות לכל ככל הגוים בית ישראל, אזי אין לצפות לדבר יותר נאה, מחילול שבת ל"ע בפהרסיא

126

 Jan 18, 2010 at 01:19 PM Shlomo Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

This is not the first instance of Zaka being mechalel Shabbos.

They were Mechalele Shabbos in Mumbei, even though they were aware that no one was found alive in the Chabad House, they arrived hours after the house was cleared. They drove to the morgue and I have even heard unconfirmed reports that they were "smoking".

Shame on Zaka. We need to remember that the Torah decides what is a good deed and chesed and what is a foolish imitation.

Selfless, yes, orthodox, no!

Well said! We should all remember that the Torah decides.
By the way, is posting "unconfirmed reports" that you heard something about someone who may or may not have been m'chalel Shabbos decided in the Torah? If you're unsure, the Chafetz Chaim Z"TL has some wonderful s'forim.
Don't bother replying.

127

 Jan 18, 2010 at 02:17 PM S. Benson Says:

For those who think the worst of Zaka—
News flash: YOU AREN'T THEM and YOU AREN'T THERE!
Since when can you paskin from in front of your computer? It's easy to judge others and say that they're "not really frum" and "it's assur" when you only have the text to rely upon and you're sitting at home. It's quite another when you're dealing with real human beings with real sheilas who need practical answers. That's why we all need a Rav! Why (and how dare you!) assume that no one from Zaka went to his Rav about his? Unless you know FOR SURE that they didn't, you’re accusing them (in public) of numerous aveirot based on your opinion of what you THINK the halacha should be.
No, I'm not a Rav. Just a member of Hatzolah and a person who has worked in disaster response for over 20 years. I've sat with my Rebbaim over the years and asked many of these very same sheilas, and others, and the answers are more complex than ANYONE here has alluded to.

128

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:32 PM Lawyer Says:

Here are my thoughts:
1. Since ZAKA is an Orthodox organization that consults gedolei yisroel, until you know otherwise, you must be dan le kak zechus and assume that they received a psak from a talmid chacham which they are following. This they are entitled to do even if you disagree with that psak.
2. Pikuach Nefesh of a nochri is not docheh Shabbos. That is a befeirush Mishna. No amount of PC armwaving is going to change that.
3. The hetter of mishum eiva according to a number of poskim does permit d'oraysas not only derabbanans. (I believe R. Moshe Feinstein held that way.)
4. The applicability of mishum eiva here seems forced to me, IMHO. This is not a case where ZAKA happened upon an accident and then it turned out there were both Jews and nochrim involved. Here the disaster was on the other side of the world. Who would even know if ZAKA flew there or not, unless someone made an issue of it?
5. There may be Jews in Haiti they are rescuing. Is there any reason to believe that there efforts might turn out to save a Jewish life? (Tourists? Businessmen? Students?) If so then you have a true case of safeik pikuach nefesh. Maybe that was the cheshbon.

129

 Jan 18, 2010 at 05:34 PM Lawyer Says:

(continued)

6. Saying that he was desecrating Shabbos "with pride" was a poor choice of words. But relief workers are not picked for their oratorical skills.

130

 Jan 18, 2010 at 08:47 PM Jewish Woman Says:

God bless Zaka. I'm sure God is a lot prouder and happier of their work than of all the jumped-up know-it-alls who are paskening from their armchairs. After scanning through the comments here, I'm glad to see that a decent proportion of you are MENTSCHEN.

The anti-Zaka comments... whether you're claiming it's halacha or not... that is most likely not your real motivation. Ever hear of "navel birshus hatorah"? You can stay completely within the confines of halacha and still be a disgusting person. That's all I have to say.

131

 Jan 18, 2010 at 08:59 PM Mike S. Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

I have no issues with their halachic positions as I assume they asked a competent posek. I did, however, cringe when I read that they are mechalel Shabbos "with pride". Even when permitted, to desecrate the eternal os between Hashem and His nation, is that really something that one does with PRIDE? I can't imagine an American Hatzalah member ever saying something like that. With alacrity and purpose, yes. With pride? What pride is there in being compelled to operate in a shaas hadichak and therefore be mechalel our hold Shabbos?

I just hope there was something lost in translation.

If their posek told them to do the rescue work on Shabbos they were indeed doing a mitzvah by doing so and should have done so with pride.

132

 Jan 19, 2010 at 01:05 PM Fred Says:

Reply to #131  
Mike S. Says:

If their posek told them to do the rescue work on Shabbos they were indeed doing a mitzvah by doing so and should have done so with pride.

Absolutely. If what you are doing is in fact a mitzvah, then you are
proud to do it, no? Obviously, you wish there was no need, but once there
is such a need, you should be glad for the opportunity to do chesed, right?
What bothers me is that people dont see this...

133

 Jan 20, 2010 at 08:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Rosh Yeshiva Says:

Were gedolei yisroel consulted on whether shabbos could be desecrated in this instance?

The "gedolei yisroel" only handle questions related to Crocs these days.

134

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