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New York - Largest Orthodox Jewish Organizations Send Letter To Florida Gov. Asking To Halt Inmate Execution

Published on: February 9, 2010 04:12 PM
By: VIN News Staff
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The Letter Sent to the Gov.The Letter Sent to the Gov.

New York - A letter signed by the executive heads of seven Jewish organizations was sent to Florida Governor Charlie Crist today, imploring him to grant clemency to Martin Grossman, a death-row inmate scheduled for execution next Tuesday, and to allow him to repay his debt to society by serving the rest of his life in prison.  The signatories also request a meeting in person with Governor Crist to discuss the matter and better relate the depth of their concern.

Mr. Grossman was convicted of killing Margaret Parks, a Florida Wildlife Officer in 1984, when he was 19 years old.  “Nothing in our humanitarian plea,” the letter reads in part, “is intended in any way to minimize the horror of the crime Mr. Grossman committed or the tragedy of Ms. Parks’s killing.”

But, the letter continues, the crime was committed when Mr. Grossman was under the influence of drugs and alchohol, and he “has conducted himself as a model prisoner since his incarceration some 25 years ago… [and] has shown profound remorse and regret for his actions.”

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Organizations or individuals who can assist in this emergency effort are asked to contact Rabbi Zvi Boyarsky at zvi@aleph-institute.org / 718-415-2221 Or Rabbi Moshe Matz at mmatz@agudathisrael 305-532-2500


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Read Comments (69)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Feb 09, 2010 at 04:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Hashem please grant this request.

2

 Feb 09, 2010 at 04:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Everyone should be contacting Governor Christ for his decision is likely to be based on a political calculation more than anything else. If he is inundated with letters from the Jewish community -- an important voting constituency in the state of Florida -- voicing their displeasure with his decision, he may just issue a stay of execution. You never know. Every letter and email counts.

3

 Feb 09, 2010 at 04:53 PM Anonymous Says:

we all hope that the govner will have racmunes

4

 Feb 09, 2010 at 04:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Nice To See Both Satmar'S Agreed On A Issue UJ CARE and UJO

5

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:00 PM Anonymous Says:

how do i contact the governors office?

6

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:04 PM Dav Says:

Let’s keep praying, it’s never to late!!! Miracles can always be there...

7

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:04 PM michali Says:

Contact the Governor!! If you can't fax a letter, call the Executive office below.

If anyone wants to help with this really big mitzvah of saving a fellow jew please write and call the Office of Governor Charlie Crist.
Address-State of Florida
The Capitol
400 S. Monroe St.
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001

Telephone:
* Citizen Services Hotline: (850) 488-4441
* Executive Office of the Governor Switchboard: (850) 488-7146
[Office hours are 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Eastern Time]

Fax: (850) 487-0801

8

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:11 PM shimon Says:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/save-martin-grossman

9

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:18 PM Sorry Says:

But not every Jew agrees. I know plenty of people who think he's no more deserving of being spared than anyone else on Death Row.

10

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:23 PM Anonymous Says:

It's about time all these organizations are bonded together under one umbrella organization.

11

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Everyone should be contacting Governor Christ for his decision is likely to be based on a political calculation more than anything else. If he is inundated with letters from the Jewish community -- an important voting constituency in the state of Florida -- voicing their displeasure with his decision, he may just issue a stay of execution. You never know. Every letter and email counts.

Does anyone have e-mail and contact info??

12

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:37 PM Dave Says:

If it's political considerations, that makes execution more likely.

Governor Crist is now trailing in the Republican Senatorial primary, and his opponent is to the right of him politically. Since capital punishment is popular with the right wing of the Republican party, any clemency is likely to be a political negative. And since either Republican candidate would likely beat the Democratic candidate, the primary is the important election.

13

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:39 PM Anonymous Says:

have just read and signed the petition: "Save Martin Grossman".
Please take a moment to read about this important issue, and join me in signing the petition. It takes just 30 seconds, but can truly make a difference. We are trying to reach 50000 signatures - please sign here: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/save-martin-grossman
Once you have signed, you can help even more by asking your friends and family to sign as well

14

 Feb 09, 2010 at 05:41 PM Pashuteh Yid Says:

From what I read the boy grew up with a very sick father whom he had to take care of and who passed away when he was 14. After that tragedy, his mother could not cope and there was nobody to raise him in a normal happy environment during childhood. He also had severe learning disabilities (IQ 77) which made him unable to succeed or adjust well while in school.

These are the points which should be emphasized. I have no idea why these Rabbanim are emphasizing the drug and alcohol issue as a cause for leniency. I think the letter should be completely rewritten and resent.

16

 Feb 09, 2010 at 06:07 PM Steven Says:

Reply to #9  
Sorry Says:

But not every Jew agrees. I know plenty of people who think he's no more deserving of being spared than anyone else on Death Row.

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

17

 Feb 09, 2010 at 06:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Sorry Says:

But not every Jew agrees. I know plenty of people who think he's no more deserving of being spared than anyone else on Death Row.

sham on you antisemeit kol hamatzil nafash achus even if if he did what he did sham on you

18

 Feb 09, 2010 at 06:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Hashem yerachem bimheiro.

19

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:19 PM Dag Says:

It is simply absurd for these organizations to support clemency just because the condemned is Jewish. This is a MASSIVE Chilul Hashem, and these organizations have lost all credibility going forward.

20

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

anyone who learned Rashi in this week Parsah knows that a "eye for an eye" means the money of a eye

21

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

Let the Catholic stick up for the Catholic, let the Hindu stick up for the Hindu,
and we should stick up for each other.
And yes,,,a Jew has a special Neshama, and a Jew has the power of Repentence,
Do you realize that this man has 25 years of soul searching and remorse.
He has a sterling record, how can you endorse a death penalty for a person
that has seen death before his eyes for 25 years? Has he not gotten his
punishment? I think if people like you would do Teshuva for their Sinas Chinom
and evil heart to the extent that Martin Grossman did for his sin, Moshiach
would have redeemed us a long time ago. People like you keep him from
redeeming us!

22

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Sorry Says:

But not every Jew agrees. I know plenty of people who think he's no more deserving of being spared than anyone else on Death Row.

You are very wrong, because every "Jew" does agree. You are probably not
a Jew, I think you better check your origin, you must come from Bnei Eisav.

23

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

He killed a gentile woman, not a Jew.

The Torah also makes reference to slavery and polygamy... do you support those things as well? The "eye for an eye" justice was determined t by the Sanhedrin, not some secular court, with many caveats attached, and rarely used.

You are right; death row is filled with similar stories, which is precisely why 15 states have abolished the death penalty, and why the other 35 should follow suit.
People asking for Mr. Grossmans clemency are not "bleed hearts," they have a Jewish heart which apparently you seem to be missing.

24

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:53 PM heard chabad is working very hard Says:

heard rabbi oirechman from talahasse and kaploun in NMB have been working hard on this project

25

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

To # 16

We are guided by the Torah.

According to the Torah a Jewish murderer is rarely executed by Beis Din and it requires 2 Kosher Jewish witnesses and nothing less and even then Beis Din has to use every conceivable reason to perhaps NOT execute him.

In the case of a Ben Noach, he is Chayav Misa even for minor transgressions of any of the 7 Mitzvos and the criteria is different.

If you think it's "unfair" (to differentiate) by your standards, then your standards are not Torah standards.

According to Torah there ARE different rules that apply to different situations.

If your rules are different, you conflict with Torah.

We, frum Jews, follow Torah.

BOTTOM LINE:

This particular Jew is deffinately 100% NOT Chayev Misa, Al Pi Torah.

26

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:58 PM Anonymous Says:

As someone who doesn't believe that man (including government) has a right to take another man's life, I ask this question; where are these organizations for all the other people who are murdered under the guise of "death penalties"?

27

 Feb 09, 2010 at 07:59 PM Steven Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

sham on you antisemeit kol hamatzil nafash achus even if if he did what he did sham on you

LOL, you have the nerve to call someone an "anitisemite" because they expressed their opinions? So in other words, what you're REALLY saying is that a yid can do ANYTHING and should be treated differently in society simply because he's Jewish. So then, using your "logic" should Bernie Madoff be pardoned? After all, his sentence is a death penalty.

GROW UP, if a yid does the crime, he has to do the time, or in this case, pay the price!!!

28

 Feb 09, 2010 at 08:15 PM Sorry Says:

Oh, please. Stop calling fellow Jews anti-Semites because they don't agree with you. Sham on you, buddy.

I'm guessing that if he had killed somebody in your family you wouldn't care what religion he was. And I'm guessing that if he wasn't a Jew, you wouldn't even care if he was guilty or innocent.

29

 Feb 09, 2010 at 08:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

eye for eye isnt ment to take out your eye for his eye learn rahi this week

30

 Feb 09, 2010 at 09:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

What do you know about Torah teaching. If you would love every Jew, Maybe you would understand that a person could lose his human control under the use of drugs. His crime was horrific, but after 26 years of being a perfect inmate with full of remorse for his action, he should be spared. Serving life without parole is more than sufficient. Execution will not bring back the officer killed.

32

 Feb 09, 2010 at 09:49 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

To # 16

We are guided by the Torah.

According to the Torah a Jewish murderer is rarely executed by Beis Din and it requires 2 Kosher Jewish witnesses and nothing less and even then Beis Din has to use every conceivable reason to perhaps NOT execute him.

In the case of a Ben Noach, he is Chayav Misa even for minor transgressions of any of the 7 Mitzvos and the criteria is different.

If you think it's "unfair" (to differentiate) by your standards, then your standards are not Torah standards.

According to Torah there ARE different rules that apply to different situations.

If your rules are different, you conflict with Torah.

We, frum Jews, follow Torah.

BOTTOM LINE:

This particular Jew is deffinately 100% NOT Chayev Misa, Al Pi Torah.

Nowhere in the US do capital trials meet the minimum standards required by Noachide courts. For example, Noachide courts require an eyewitness; in America we execute people on a regular basis despite zero eyewitnesses. In galut, Jews are subject to non-Jewish courts. The only realistic answer is to abolish the death penalty, which most developed countries have done.

33

 Feb 09, 2010 at 09:52 PM Charlie Hall Says:

I've never seen any rabbinical organization scream for the death penalty for a non-Jewish murderer.

34

 Feb 09, 2010 at 10:18 PM So sad Says:

You clearly have a problem with Jews and rabbis in general so it does not matter how just the cause is thatthey are fighting for.
This is not about money greed nepotism or egos. This purely about saving a Jews life. Also the rabbi spearheading this effort visits Jewish inmates on a regular basis for almost 20 years. He has gotten to know Grossman and is a witness to his remorse and over improvement as a human being. How about sone compassion. Are you really that sure his life needs to end? I don't think you are. Also did you know that if the victim wasn't a law enforcement officer he would not be on death row. Does that not bother you more than rabbis and Jews trying to save a Jewish life?

35

 Feb 09, 2010 at 10:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Charlie Hall Says:

I've never seen any rabbinical organization scream for the death penalty for a non-Jewish murderer.

But have you ever seen a rabbinical organization ask for someone on death row to be spared? Of course not. It is obvious that they are only doing this because he is Jewish, which is why it is a sham.

36

 Feb 09, 2010 at 10:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Liberalism is a disease. Look at all the bleeding hearts.

37

 Feb 09, 2010 at 10:39 PM OMG Says:

Sorry your logic is misplaced, A Jew is part of our family and as family we cry and beg for clemency, and that is ok not racist, every family member has a right to defend and try to mitigate the penalty, except if you don’t consider yourself part of the family, then yes I could understand your point of view but if you consider yourself to be part of the family then you disappoint me. Finally stop hiding behind law and order if someone calls for his release I would stand with you, but we are only asking for clemency from death.

38

 Feb 09, 2010 at 10:49 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #27  
Steven Says:

LOL, you have the nerve to call someone an "anitisemite" because they expressed their opinions? So in other words, what you're REALLY saying is that a yid can do ANYTHING and should be treated differently in society simply because he's Jewish. So then, using your "logic" should Bernie Madoff be pardoned? After all, his sentence is a death penalty.

GROW UP, if a yid does the crime, he has to do the time, or in this case, pay the price!!!

As much as I disagree with poster #27 for calling any person who calls for the death penalty for Grossman is an anti-smite, I disagree with your argument that because we beg for clemency in someway we say a Jew is allowed to do whatever he wants, that is worst then poster # 27 anti-smite card, poster # 27 at least is yelling in pain that a fellow brother will die by human hand, but you are besmirching all of us just because we disagree with your conclusion and willing to spend a few minutes to write from our hearts to the Governor.

39

 Feb 09, 2010 at 10:50 PM Steven Says:

Reply to #28  
Sorry Says:

Oh, please. Stop calling fellow Jews anti-Semites because they don't agree with you. Sham on you, buddy.

I'm guessing that if he had killed somebody in your family you wouldn't care what religion he was. And I'm guessing that if he wasn't a Jew, you wouldn't even care if he was guilty or innocent.

So true. If one of these PIOUS people had a family member MURDERED by this JEW, they wouldn't be taking the stand of how sacred a JEWISH life it.

Plus their labeling ANYONE who disagrees with their perspective an antisemite just goes to show their ignorance and biggotry. Agree with me and you're a FANTASTIC Jew, disagree with me and you're not a JEW and and antisemite.

40

 Feb 09, 2010 at 10:55 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #27  
Steven Says:

LOL, you have the nerve to call someone an "anitisemite" because they expressed their opinions? So in other words, what you're REALLY saying is that a yid can do ANYTHING and should be treated differently in society simply because he's Jewish. So then, using your "logic" should Bernie Madoff be pardoned? After all, his sentence is a death penalty.

GROW UP, if a yid does the crime, he has to do the time, or in this case, pay the price!!!

From what I saw on the news, tomorrow there will be a snow day that should give every person some time to sit down and write a letter or e-mail to the Governor and beg him to grant clemency to Grossman. It would only take a few minutes. May God help us that we should never ever have another case like this.

41

 Feb 09, 2010 at 11:42 PM yaakov Says:

Reply to #27  
Steven Says:

LOL, you have the nerve to call someone an "anitisemite" because they expressed their opinions? So in other words, what you're REALLY saying is that a yid can do ANYTHING and should be treated differently in society simply because he's Jewish. So then, using your "logic" should Bernie Madoff be pardoned? After all, his sentence is a death penalty.

GROW UP, if a yid does the crime, he has to do the time, or in this case, pay the price!!!

he sould do the time not have to be killed

42

 Feb 10, 2010 at 01:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Who are we to be judge and jury here? This man commited murder and was found to be guilty in a court of law in a state where they execute murderers. Reb Moshe says that in our society, there is a need for capital punishment. This is pashut to me. I would never sign a petition for a murderer. Even if a Yid commits a crime, he must pay the price.

43

 Feb 10, 2010 at 02:19 AM You are sking the wrong question Says:

Reply to #39  
Steven Says:

So true. If one of these PIOUS people had a family member MURDERED by this JEW, they wouldn't be taking the stand of how sacred a JEWISH life it.

Plus their labeling ANYONE who disagrees with their perspective an antisemite just goes to show their ignorance and biggotry. Agree with me and you're a FANTASTIC Jew, disagree with me and you're not a JEW and and antisemite.

Your question shouldn't be "if Grossman killed the brother of one of the rabbis would they still be asking for clemency?"
the correct question as a Jew should be"if Grossman was my brother wouldn't I ask for clemency?"
be a Jew and think like a brother

44

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:08 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #9  
Sorry Says:

But not every Jew agrees. I know plenty of people who think he's no more deserving of being spared than anyone else on Death Row.

Not every Jew agrees with many other Torah positions either. Many Jews think that working on Saturday is ok. Many Jews believe that charity is just optional. Many Jews are pro abortion. Many Jews intermarry.

That not every Jew agrees with a clear Torah principle is not a valid argument for not acting on an issue. The Jews that would say he's not more deserving of being spared than non-Jews on death row are 100% in the wrong when compared with our guiding traditions--Torah and the Mesorah.

There is zero basis for his execution from a Torah standpoint (when compared to life in prison), even if you'll argue "dina d'malchuta dina." And if you'll argue others on death row are in a similar position, the answer is that perhaps you're right, but the Torah only wants us to expend our resources to help one of our own brethren. When we are done helping all the Jews, we are more than welcome to fight against all injustices against all people. But until that point, every dollar and minute spent for a non-Jew, is one less dollar and one less minute for someone from your OWN FAMILY.

Perhaps the very key you're missing is that Jews are not just figuratively "brothers." It's literal.

45

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:16 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

Hey Steven, my name is also Steven, but we have a very different perspective. :)
Read my reply to #9 and you'll see my answer to you as well. Every case of injustice out there hurts us as Jews, but unfortunately our aid is limited. Each time we mobilize an effort to intervene, it amounts to thousands of dollars and hours. We are only allowed to do this for a non-Jew once we have solved all problems concerning all Jews. (Or if necessary for darchei shalom.) Obviously that hasn't happened yet. Please consider these issues seriously and pick up the phone and call Crist's office.

46

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:27 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #19  
Dag Says:

It is simply absurd for these organizations to support clemency just because the condemned is Jewish. This is a MASSIVE Chilul Hashem, and these organizations have lost all credibility going forward.

No, Mr. Dag, it's not a MASSIVE Chilul Hashem. You can phrase it however you want, but you're still incorrect. Read my replies to #9 and #16. A Jewish organization has a responsibility to channel its funds to help Jews. Otherwise it would be a breach of its fiduciary responsibility since its only existence is to further Jewish causes.

Perhaps your issue is also that you don't realize that the real Jewish perspective is that another Jew is a LITERAL brother, not just a figurative one. True, he is not a biological brother, but it's the next best kind. Ponder this every day and study our sources and traditions. You'll see it's pretty universal. I'll leave it for the scholars on this board to prove it to you.

Dag, my brother, please call the governor. (850) 488-7146. You'll be doing a big chesed for my other bother and I.

47

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

You are very wrong, because every "Jew" does agree. You are probably not
a Jew, I think you better check your origin, you must come from Bnei Eisav.

Please read my reply to #21. Let's try educate misinformed people, not bash them. Unfortunately poster #9 is right, many Jews would not agree, but like I wrote in my reply to #9, that's not a basis for acting or not acting. What I also wanted to write to #9, but did not have room to say is that due to certain circumstances over our history, some beyond our control and some by our own choosing, we have gotten to the point where so many Jews are uninformed about the reality of God and Torah. It's our job, as informed Jews, to show them the light and bring them closer to truth.

48

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:49 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

He killed a gentile woman, not a Jew.

The Torah also makes reference to slavery and polygamy... do you support those things as well? The "eye for an eye" justice was determined t by the Sanhedrin, not some secular court, with many caveats attached, and rarely used.

You are right; death row is filled with similar stories, which is precisely why 15 states have abolished the death penalty, and why the other 35 should follow suit.
People asking for Mr. Grossmans clemency are not "bleed hearts," they have a Jewish heart which apparently you seem to be missing.

You wrote "...they have a Jewish heart which apparently you seem to be missing..."

See my reply to #21 and #22. I agree with you that #16 is wrong, but don't be so scathing and we'll get better results! We're all in this together.

Also, you seem to be misinformed. An eye for an eye is not literal. As accepted by all oral traditions, it's the value of the eye. It is not rarely used. It's used in Jewish law even today. If I cause you bodily damage, a Rabbinical court will determine how much I would need to pay, and this is based on "an eye for an eye."

It also happens to make no difference whether he killed a Jew or gentile. The death penalty is inappropriate, especially in light of the mitigating circumstances.

49

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:55 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

As someone who doesn't believe that man (including government) has a right to take another man's life, I ask this question; where are these organizations for all the other people who are murdered under the guise of "death penalties"?

See my replies to #9, #16, & #19. Yes, I agree with you that the death penalty is often not warranted. I disagree with you in certain circumstances, but not in this case. The reason the organizations do not get involved in non-Jewish cases is because they have been charged with using their resources to further Jewish causes. Additionally, they may not get involved with other Jewish cases of death penalty because there aren't enough mitigating circumstances, and therefore not much to argue.

50

 Feb 10, 2010 at 07:11 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #28  
Sorry Says:

Oh, please. Stop calling fellow Jews anti-Semites because they don't agree with you. Sham on you, buddy.

I'm guessing that if he had killed somebody in your family you wouldn't care what religion he was. And I'm guessing that if he wasn't a Jew, you wouldn't even care if he was guilty or innocent.

I agree with you that nobody should call any Yid an anti-Semite, especially if just because they don't agree with you.

To the second part, I don't know about anyone else here, but if God forbid I was in the situation where a Jew had killed a member of my biological family, I honestly feel that I would still would not want the murderer to get the death penalty, assuming all these mitigating circumstances. Give him life in prison. Give him life/time for Teshuvah. (I don't know what I would say if it was cold-blooded, premeditated, malicious murder.)

51

 Feb 10, 2010 at 09:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
SZT Says:

You wrote "...they have a Jewish heart which apparently you seem to be missing..."

See my reply to #21 and #22. I agree with you that #16 is wrong, but don't be so scathing and we'll get better results! We're all in this together.

Also, you seem to be misinformed. An eye for an eye is not literal. As accepted by all oral traditions, it's the value of the eye. It is not rarely used. It's used in Jewish law even today. If I cause you bodily damage, a Rabbinical court will determine how much I would need to pay, and this is based on "an eye for an eye."

It also happens to make no difference whether he killed a Jew or gentile. The death penalty is inappropriate, especially in light of the mitigating circumstances.

I was not making reference to the victims religious persuasion as a factor in the case, only pointing out that the commenter is wrong; he did not kill a Jew.
As far as the eye-for-an-eye thing goes, I was referring to the notion that the taking of a life automatically calls for the death penalty (not literally an eye), which was rarely applied.

52

 Feb 10, 2010 at 09:31 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Who are we to be judge and jury here? This man commited murder and was found to be guilty in a court of law in a state where they execute murderers. Reb Moshe says that in our society, there is a need for capital punishment. This is pashut to me. I would never sign a petition for a murderer. Even if a Yid commits a crime, he must pay the price.

But as a Jew and your brother why do you need to be the executioner, in this society everybody has a part, our part is to err on the side of keeping a brother alive.

53

 Feb 10, 2010 at 09:40 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #47  
Anonymous Says:

Please read my reply to #21. Let's try educate misinformed people, not bash them. Unfortunately poster #9 is right, many Jews would not agree, but like I wrote in my reply to #9, that's not a basis for acting or not acting. What I also wanted to write to #9, but did not have room to say is that due to certain circumstances over our history, some beyond our control and some by our own choosing, we have gotten to the point where so many Jews are uninformed about the reality of God and Torah. It's our job, as informed Jews, to show them the light and bring them closer to truth.

I must have left SZT out of the correct field, so I was posted as anonymous. I wrote the above as a reply to #22.

54

 Feb 10, 2010 at 09:42 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #44  
SZT Says:

Not every Jew agrees with many other Torah positions either. Many Jews think that working on Saturday is ok. Many Jews believe that charity is just optional. Many Jews are pro abortion. Many Jews intermarry.

That not every Jew agrees with a clear Torah principle is not a valid argument for not acting on an issue. The Jews that would say he's not more deserving of being spared than non-Jews on death row are 100% in the wrong when compared with our guiding traditions--Torah and the Mesorah.

There is zero basis for his execution from a Torah standpoint (when compared to life in prison), even if you'll argue "dina d'malchuta dina." And if you'll argue others on death row are in a similar position, the answer is that perhaps you're right, but the Torah only wants us to expend our resources to help one of our own brethren. When we are done helping all the Jews, we are more than welcome to fight against all injustices against all people. But until that point, every dollar and minute spent for a non-Jew, is one less dollar and one less minute for someone from your OWN FAMILY.

Perhaps the very key you're missing is that Jews are not just figuratively "brothers." It's literal.

Please let me expend on your argument, in this case to argue "dina d'malchuta dina." Belies the fact that part of our system is to ask for clemency, that is why the Governor has that power to use it wisely, but what we are doing is to act on an integral part of the system. Therefore, every person who’s arguing that we must follow the law of the land is wrong, we are part of the mechanism set up by the government, and with our personal appeals to the governor we are participating in government.

55

 Feb 10, 2010 at 09:52 AM OMG Says:

Reply to previous story # 109
Part # 1
Over all I agree with your view, and you show that you have a heart of a Jew and I applaud you willingness to speak up while some on this pages call for blood, you are not deterred and seek justices. But let me explain to you the meaning of premeditation, it is not that the perp had to sit down and calculate that he will kill this officer, the law is clear that if the perp had even only one second to plan and make a decision to kill, it is considered premeditation. Unfortunate for Grossman, he wrestled away the gun from the officers and shot her with her own gun, after he begged the office not to report his gun possession, because he was already on parole, so the jury looked at this case as premeditated because he know that if the officer reported him he will go to jail.

I will fail in honesty if I don’t make an objection to you comment “Once upon a time any Jew accused of any crime was considered guilty without trial and not just merely guilty of a crime but guilty of a “premeditated” crime. Could it be (just by chance) that this happened also to this jury? You’ll forgive me for asking. One thing is for sure, a name like “Grossman” wasn’t to his benefit;” I think it is counter productive to raise the victim mentality, we don’t need people to write to the Governor that he was railroaded in the justices system, I would like you to retract that specific comment.

56

 Feb 10, 2010 at 10:31 AM Eli Says:

Reply to #45  
SZT Says:

Hey Steven, my name is also Steven, but we have a very different perspective. :)
Read my reply to #9 and you'll see my answer to you as well. Every case of injustice out there hurts us as Jews, but unfortunately our aid is limited. Each time we mobilize an effort to intervene, it amounts to thousands of dollars and hours. We are only allowed to do this for a non-Jew once we have solved all problems concerning all Jews. (Or if necessary for darchei shalom.) Obviously that hasn't happened yet. Please consider these issues seriously and pick up the phone and call Crist's office.

I guess logic such as yours was used by many Europeans to avoid helping jews during the holocaust. For example, a Polish or French citizen likely asked, Why expend effort helping Jews when we could be using our resources to focus on helping other christians survive the occupation by the Germans. Beautiful logic, huh?

Also, what you fail to realize, is that when we ignore all the injustice done in this world to others, until it reaches our own, we are powerless to stop the injustice. It is unlikely that the letters will halt this execution. However, if we had been fighting for years againt executing the mentally disabled or the orphaned etcetera, perhaps Mr. Grossman would not be in this position.

You remind me of a famous poem about the holocaust. To paraphrase (look up exact wording) "first they came for the jews and I was not jewish so I remained silent. Then they came for the gays and I was not gay so I remained silent....When they finally came for me no one was left to defend me.

57

 Feb 10, 2010 at 11:45 AM OMG Says:

Over the last few years, we argued and debated numerous issues and sometimes we agree or disagree, but I always am inclined to stand with the victim, but regardless I always considered myself a Jew first, I always look at any Jew as part of my family, in essence he is my brother and I am responsible to do whatever I could do to negate any pain a Jew might have especially if the death penalty is on the table, yes I am family, and I would ask every Jew who considers himself part of the Jewish family, to speak up, even if you are Pro Death Penalty, if your brother C’V is on death row would you do what you could as a brother to save his life for sure yes. The same here I don’t care if he is a killer of a police officer I am not subjective; I am willing to beg the Governor to grant clemency. It is no contradiction in my core beliefs, the reason why I beg of you to sit down and right a letter or e-mail to the Governor, is not that I want to minimize Grossman crime, no I will not trash the jury system in the state of Florida, no I am only begging the Governor, as a fellow brother-Jew we need to help Grossman to stay alive, to give clemency to an individual who changed his life and is a model prisoner for the last twenty five years. Please remember that you need to be respectful and before you send something read and make sure that you write to the point and with heart.
Write to the Governor Charlie Crist you could easily Google for the e-mail address.

58

 Feb 10, 2010 at 02:53 PM OMG Says:

Reply to previous # 109
Part # 2
Although I am for the death penalty, simply I cannot take the death penalty off the table for a Nazi; therefore, I cannot claim that I am totally against the death penalty. However in this case I am fully supportive of any person who would call on Governor Chirs to grant clemency to Grossman, first he is a Jew and as a Jew I am bound by the fact that he is my brother, and yes he did commit a terrible crime, but I as his family member, hope and pray that he is not put to death, in particular that he changed his behavior and he will stay for life in jail.

Finally I hope and pray that everyone will write to the governor Charlie Crist and please use a measured tone, for god’s sake do not attack the Florida judicial system, just plead for clemency only.

59

 Feb 10, 2010 at 05:40 PM Shelomo Alfassa Says:

Margaret Park, a five foot two inch Florida wildlife officer. She came upon two men target-shooting. Groosman was a formerly convicted criminal on parole with a stolen gun. Grossman beat Park with her flashlight while she screamed into her police radio, hitting her 20 to 30 times as she begged for her life - as his friend Thane Taylor held her down. Grossman took her gun then shot her in the back of the head with her own .357-caliber Magnum. Grossman was six foot three and 250 pounds, and was 19 when he killed her. They later confessed to the murder to several friends, who testified at their trial.

As required in the Noahide Laws this society has established courts & has ruled the man committed murder. He was then sentenced to death—if we follow Dina d'malchuta dina ("the law of the land is law"), then why not put him to death? The Gemara supports capital pubishment. Shemuel HaNagid's community even executed a man on Yom Kippur to drive the point home that when a court makes a ruling, it is binding.

I'm sure the woman's family who is still mourning after their daughter's murder would agree that this man, just because he is Jewish, deserves no special attention.

My thoughs...

60

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:21 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #59  
Shelomo Alfassa Says:

Margaret Park, a five foot two inch Florida wildlife officer. She came upon two men target-shooting. Groosman was a formerly convicted criminal on parole with a stolen gun. Grossman beat Park with her flashlight while she screamed into her police radio, hitting her 20 to 30 times as she begged for her life - as his friend Thane Taylor held her down. Grossman took her gun then shot her in the back of the head with her own .357-caliber Magnum. Grossman was six foot three and 250 pounds, and was 19 when he killed her. They later confessed to the murder to several friends, who testified at their trial.

As required in the Noahide Laws this society has established courts & has ruled the man committed murder. He was then sentenced to death—if we follow Dina d'malchuta dina ("the law of the land is law"), then why not put him to death? The Gemara supports capital pubishment. Shemuel HaNagid's community even executed a man on Yom Kippur to drive the point home that when a court makes a ruling, it is binding.

I'm sure the woman's family who is still mourning after their daughter's murder would agree that this man, just because he is Jewish, deserves no special attention.

My thoughs...

I already covered your "dina d'malchuta dina." Argument in post # 54, we are not asking the Governor to do something which is not part of the system, i.e. "dina d'malchuta dina." the governor has the legal right to give clemency to Grossman, so what we are asking is that the Governor to use his powers he was granted in the state constitution and you are hiding behind the cloak of Torah.

61

 Feb 10, 2010 at 06:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
Shelomo Alfassa Says:

Margaret Park, a five foot two inch Florida wildlife officer. She came upon two men target-shooting. Groosman was a formerly convicted criminal on parole with a stolen gun. Grossman beat Park with her flashlight while she screamed into her police radio, hitting her 20 to 30 times as she begged for her life - as his friend Thane Taylor held her down. Grossman took her gun then shot her in the back of the head with her own .357-caliber Magnum. Grossman was six foot three and 250 pounds, and was 19 when he killed her. They later confessed to the murder to several friends, who testified at their trial.

As required in the Noahide Laws this society has established courts & has ruled the man committed murder. He was then sentenced to death—if we follow Dina d'malchuta dina ("the law of the land is law"), then why not put him to death? The Gemara supports capital pubishment. Shemuel HaNagid's community even executed a man on Yom Kippur to drive the point home that when a court makes a ruling, it is binding.

I'm sure the woman's family who is still mourning after their daughter's murder would agree that this man, just because he is Jewish, deserves no special attention.

My thoughs...

Dina demalchusa dina, means that we are obligated to obey the rules of the land, that's Toras Moshe. However, if we transgress those rules, it doesn't mean that the punishment of the land is Toras Moshe.
The Gemara supports capital punishment, when Sanhedrin has ruled as such, not a gentile court.
In Florida you die, in New York you live, this is a criteria for the umos haolam, not from a Torah perspective.

62

 Feb 11, 2010 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

To #16- Steven Says: Firstly, the victim was a woman who wasn't Jewish! Second point: when the Torah says 'an eye for an eye', our sages explain it to mean payment in 'money' for damages; as in today's courts where someone was injured by someone and is repaid monetarily.

64

 Feb 11, 2010 at 06:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

It's about time all these organizations are bonded together under one umbrella organization.

Gut zol inz uphiten if that happens. Like this we have some checks and balances, if they all combine I'll move to New Zealand.

65

 Feb 11, 2010 at 11:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

About two weeks later, Grossman and Taylor were arrested after an acquaintance, Brian Allan, told the police that they had
admitted to the crime. The two had also apparently told another friend, Brian Hancock, of the shooting, and Martin Grossman
also allegedly related the details of the shooting to a jail mate, Charles Brewer. The two defendants were tried jointly, over the
objection of Martin Grossman’s lawyer. The prosecution introduced the testimony of Allan, Hancock and Brewer against
Grossman. It introduced against Thayne Taylor the statement that Taylor had given to the police. The jury was instructed that
it could only use it against Taylor, not Grossman. While the courts have ruled that it was a constitutional error against
Grossman to admit Taylor’s statement in this way, they have ruled that the error was “harmless” given the other testimony
pointing to Grossman’s dominant role in the crime.
In 1990, Charles Brewer signed an affidavit retracting his trial testimony against Grossman. He said that he assisted the
authorities because he believed they would help him with his own case.

66

 Feb 12, 2010 at 02:57 AM SZT Says:

Reply to #56  
Eli Says:

I guess logic such as yours was used by many Europeans to avoid helping jews during the holocaust. For example, a Polish or French citizen likely asked, Why expend effort helping Jews when we could be using our resources to focus on helping other christians survive the occupation by the Germans. Beautiful logic, huh?

Also, what you fail to realize, is that when we ignore all the injustice done in this world to others, until it reaches our own, we are powerless to stop the injustice. It is unlikely that the letters will halt this execution. However, if we had been fighting for years againt executing the mentally disabled or the orphaned etcetera, perhaps Mr. Grossman would not be in this position.

You remind me of a famous poem about the holocaust. To paraphrase (look up exact wording) "first they came for the jews and I was not jewish so I remained silent. Then they came for the gays and I was not gay so I remained silent....When they finally came for me no one was left to defend me.

You are correct. I did not mean an extreme position as it sounded. It's all about percentage of effort. When it's one of your own you stop at nothing. When it's outside the family, you don't walk on by, but there are limits. Otherwise you would be neglecting your own family. Unfortunately, opportunity costs are a fact of life.

So my response is a) I was not saying do not help non-Jews at all. b) I was not saying ignore all injustice done to others. c) you are correct that letters from Jews in Brooklyn are not likely to halt Tuesday's injection.

BUT--> perhaps we could mobilize an effort on the ground in Florida to get petition signatures from across the spectrum of the Floridian population. We've got 4.xx days to do it.

67

 Feb 12, 2010 at 01:02 PM Austin Says:

Reply to #16  
Steven Says:

I agree. The Torah teaches, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This guy killed another Jew. I'm sorry for his background and the suffering he did as a child with a sick father. That does not excuse his acts. A killer is a killer, if he's Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, etc, if you do the crime, do the time.

Death row is FILLED with similar stories of horrific backgrounds, physical, mental and sexual abuse, where are all these bleeding hearts for THOSE people too?

Steven, are you ignorant or just too lazy to read the full facts and law here? THIS WAS NOT PREMEDITATED MURDER>>> The threshold for the death penalty.
What WILL happen (as the politacally motivated governor seems unwilling to budge) is a gras-roots boycott of all Florida business and services. I know I am getting a distate for Florida at this point. FLORIDA WILL PAY FOR THIS...economically.

68

 Feb 14, 2010 at 12:04 PM rg Says:

What kind of a chillul hashem are you showing by one hand supporting the death penalty ,for every murderer ,but if he is Jewish not ,you look like a big laughing stock & huge hypocrit,unless you are against the death penalty period .I believe life in prison is bigger torture than Capital punishment ,but a majority of my frum community around the world support the death penalty ,therefore what is it going to be? This is a huge chillul hashem when the goyim see that the jews see themselves as being superior to others even when commiting a henious crime as murder wether under the influence of drugs ,smoke ,crack or whatever ,shhhhhhhhhhhhh if it was a shvartzer ,we would not be happier.

69

 Feb 14, 2010 at 12:14 PM rg Says:

Let the family of the victim decide what to do with this guy ,if they say fry ,then fry if they say let him go then thats it.They deserve retribution & i am sure that if someone chas vashalom did the same to your family you would want the same ,I know it could be difficult ,however you have to look at the big picture ,think about the low life in monsey that gave treif to the whole community or thar garbage that stole money from hundreds of frum people Im sure you would have no problem of those two guys yemach shimom if they can do such a heartless thing to others.

70

 Feb 15, 2010 at 07:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
rg Says:

What kind of a chillul hashem are you showing by one hand supporting the death penalty ,for every murderer ,but if he is Jewish not ,you look like a big laughing stock & huge hypocrit,unless you are against the death penalty period .I believe life in prison is bigger torture than Capital punishment ,but a majority of my frum community around the world support the death penalty ,therefore what is it going to be? This is a huge chillul hashem when the goyim see that the jews see themselves as being superior to others even when commiting a henious crime as murder wether under the influence of drugs ,smoke ,crack or whatever ,shhhhhhhhhhhhh if it was a shvartzer ,we would not be happier.

We don't look like a big laughing stock,we are not arguing in the air, but on legal grounds.The chillul Hashem would be if goyim saw the person's fellow jews callously ignore his fate,despite many reasons he should not gat the death penalty,even according to those who support it.

71

 Feb 15, 2010 at 09:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
rg Says:

Let the family of the victim decide what to do with this guy ,if they say fry ,then fry if they say let him go then thats it.They deserve retribution & i am sure that if someone chas vashalom did the same to your family you would want the same ,I know it could be difficult ,however you have to look at the big picture ,think about the low life in monsey that gave treif to the whole community or thar garbage that stole money from hundreds of frum people Im sure you would have no problem of those two guys yemach shimom if they can do such a heartless thing to others.

To say the word fry shows you don't have the jewish people's hallmark trait :compassion.I don't know where it says that you kill someone who sold treif.Bottom line he a member of your family,if you consider yourself a part of it.

72

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