Melbourne, Australia - ONE of Melbourne Chabad’s most influential figures, Joseph Gutnick, has signed a petition challenging the Yeshivah Centre’s leadership.
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Rabbi Gutnick is among a group of Yeshivah members calling on the leadership to remove a controversial sign at the back of the synagogue.
These members want to see the centre, led by Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner -– the son-in-law of the late Rabbi Yitzchok Dovid Groner -– be run more along the lines of a democracy.
The sign has the words to a short prayer known as Yechi. Yechi has been recited for centuries, but recently has been hijacked by the more messianic Chabadniks to signify the late Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson as the Messiah.
“I feel very strongly that it should be removed,” Rabbi Gutnick told The AJN.
The Yechi sign has been up in the synagogue for a number of years with little controversy, but the matter came to a head last month when Rabbi Telsner ostracised the “Moshiach Men” from Melbourne’s Chabad community.
The group comprises a few families who are convinced the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Messiah and are vocal in spreading their message. The Moshiach Men raised the ire of the Chabad community when they circulated footage of themselves feasting on a fast day, claiming that because the Messiah had come, the fast was no longer necessary.
“[These men] started at the Yeshivah and this sign is part of it,” said Rabbi Gutnick, who has held a seat at the shul for 18 years.
“The Rebbe’s greatness is not depicted in this sign, it comes from the amount of Chabad Houses and Jewish schools … that sign takes the Rebbe’s great work and puts it into a slogan.”
The petition has been circulated by Yeshivah shul members Yudi New and Menachem Vorchheimer.
Vorchheimer told The AJN he believes the sign, and its associated fringe supporters, are “divisive and damaging” to the Yeshivah Centre.
When asked if he thought the petition would work, Vorchheimer replied: “In a democracy it would work, but the Yeshivah Centre has been hijacked.”
The current Yeshivah leadership was not elected, rather it includes men believed to have been appointed by Rabbi Groner before his death.
The group comprises Rabbi Binyomin Cohen, Rabbi Avrohom Glick, Rabbi Chaim Tzvi Groner, Shmuel Gurewicz, Rabbi Telsner and Rabbi Shimshon Yurkowicz.
Gutnick is one of the few ‘normal’ chassidim of the Rebbi, who is against making the Rebbi into some kind of a ‘Mickey Mouse ‘character to serve peoples fantasy!
This “moishichist” movement in Australia is growing like a plague of locust and must be stamped out before it spreads any further. Any intelligent yid knows that Schneerson cannot be the moishiach but the word apparently has not reached “down under”. Thus, removing the words of this teffilah that has been hijacked by these fanatical lubavitch is the appropriate decision.
No one can deny the fact that there are many Lubavitchers who do not support these Yechi signs this is just another example of the fact that many in Chabad are not Meshichist.
Instead of using this as a bash Chabad moment which would be very wrong people should be aware that the rabbonim in this article are tremendous Talmedei Chochamim. People should praise the fact that Lubavitchers are challenging these signs and are speaking out against this. Also posters remember this is a machlokes about shita and is not personal.
“The sign has the words to a short prayer known as Yechi. Yechi has been recited for centuries, but recently has been hijacked by the more messianic Chabadniks to signify the late Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson as the Messiah. “
Where did this journalist get the idea that there is a prayer called Yechi?That is has been recited for centuries?
Someone gave the journalist the wrong information
At least there are still a few normal lubavitchers out there that are still normal like Mr. Gutnik. He has the foresight to see how damaging this meshugaas is to lubavitcher movement. This has been going on for years all over the US and eretz yisroel that’s why some chassidem are looked upon like they’re nuts and lose respect from the general public. Additionally he’s very right about the hijacking of shuls that is taking place. I know of a number of shuls in Miami where they put themselves in and imposed new lubavitcher minhugim in an established shul that has been in operation forever. They get a little comfortable and then they take over hijacking the shul. Where were they brought up? In a shtall? Pure genaivah.But they have a different shulchun urech. Kul deahlim guhvaar.
Joseph Gutnick probably thinks that the rebbe is Moshiach but has to deal with public opinion. Yichienicks give vitality to chabad. It gets people thinking about moshiach’s imenent arival which causes us to do more mitsvos(usualy).
Gutnik thinks he can cover-up the true colors of chabad’s belief!
this is a PR stunt!
this same man, is one of them (only in the closet)
true, Yossel Gutnik has argued publicly that the mishichist view is crazy,
but when asked point blank “if he believe this “crazy” view? …he wouldn’t give a str8 answer!
why?
because there are many many torah sources allowing moshiach min hameisim.
There are many, many sources from Sefardim, Ashkenazim, Chassidim, and Misnagdim that Moshiach will be revealed after his Techias HaMaisim.
Check out the Abarbanel, the Ramak, and others.
I as a lubavitcher state that the Rebbe COULD be Moshiach but its a matter of private opinion and should not be displayed in a shul its “each his own” but let me just say over a story that happened in Israel about one of the gedolim which was once approached by a yid who said that the lubavitchers think their Rebbe (at the time referring to the previous Rebbe) is Moshiach to which he responded I for one know I’m definitely not Moshiach you know your not Moshiach so what does it bother you that they think their Rebbe is Moshiach.
Btw it says in gemara sanhedrin that many amoroim thought their Rebbe to be Moshiach and if you guys have real rabeim hope you think the same thing of your Rebbes
To #2 – I doubt you would call your mother or father or by their last name – as Isaac says, you should give some kovod to a, at the very least, great Rabbi.
The sign is going to split the Shule with people who have dovened there for 40 years getting totally fed up by this shtus and I can see them leaving for good. They also contributed to the establishment and running of the Shule since its inception, together with Rabbi Groner.
There is absolutely no upside to have the sign there, no hamshochas, no isarusa l’dlailah, no brochas, no hishkashrus, but there is plenty of downside – soon it will completely split the shule – resulting in one relative or friend not talking to the other – all for a stupid nothing sign and the stupid yellow flags, yarmulkas etc.
Rabbi Groner, zl, made a big mistake with his Psak regarding the sign, just like he made a big mistake with Rabbi David Kramer (now serving 7 years jail) , and Rabbi Telsner has ended up with this yerusha, between a rock and a hard place.
This is really not a good time for sinas chinam. Have a look around what’s happening in Europe and the Middle East. Have a look what khomeini is saying. And all for absolutely NOTHING.
FYI Gutnick has told some people that he was taken out of context in this article that first appeared in the Jewish news which is just looking to sensationalize the story in order to get more readers.
Misguided people have nothing to do with the Yechi sign which has been hanging for over eighteen years.
Gutnick tried to TAKE OVER rabbi Groners shull years ago, but rabbi groner sent him flying, so he went and built himself his own shul (770), since then he hasn’t stepped foot in the “the yeshiva shull” and is NOT a member.
he waited for rabbi groner to pass on, and now wants a rematch with Rabbi Groners son in-law
gutnick is a power hungry guy, who is using his money to shove his opinions on others.
go rabbi telzner put this guy in his place
They ate on a fast day ??? Sounds like shaabsi tzvi. oy lanu
The moshichistim dance in the streets across from the Yeshiva center.creating an embarrassment to all who see them and a chillul hashem. I am happy Yossel is taking a stand although in the world of Melbourne’s Chabad politics it is often hard to really comprehend the hidden agendas.
I’m glad to see chabad finally doing something about it. For years they were silant and silance gave the entire chabad community a black eye. Its like the muslims who don’t protest jihad; you don’t know the normal ones from the crazies if everyone is silent
Yasher koiach to Rabbi Gutnick. It gives us non-Chabadniks hope that these mishugayim haven’t taken over Chabad.
This sign has been around a long time, till now noone rational has ever taken it to mean you can overturn a halacha and especially Barabim. The Yeshiva’s founder and those who have taken on the important work, working almost 24 hrs a day for the good of the Kehilla cannot be called undemocratic. Rabbi Gutnick knows that these Rabbanim have given their lives for Lubavitch and were good enough to make their names known for Chesed and Emes for the last 50 yrs and made Melbourne Yiddisshkeit the terrific community it is. Money alone did not do it, Rabbi Gutnick!
this whole situation is Maaseh Satan” it won’t go away untill Moshiach comes Let it go and focus on becoming a better and more Erilche Yid
#25 is absolutely correct. There are NO sources in Chazal – not in the Talmud, not in the Rishonim – that moshiach can come from the dead. Many Lubavitchers claim to be non-meshichists, but if you ask them point blank to say, “I maintain that the rebbe is not moshiach” they won’t say it. Why? And further, many people fail to realize that in order to have messianic fervor for this man, it had to have been facilitated and encouraged. Yes…he himself encouraged the fervor. He himself is to blame for this whole mess. But someone who has no problem abrogating the mitzvah of Sukkah (by telling people that you need not sleep in the Sukkah no matter what the conditions are – because of the “holy lights”), among other things, has a lot to answer for in the olam ha-emes. Chabad chassidim: it’s time to do teshuva. Look away from those who misguided you, and return to Torah. Hashem will welcome you back with love.
The Alter Rebbe was asked: Who is greater – Moshe Rabbeinu or Moshiach Tzidkeinu? The Rebbe’s reply: Moshiach Tzidkeinu. so I say the rebbi melech hamoshiach zidkainu laolam voed chai vekayom the rebbi is alive . . And thats why I dont visit the ohel anymore
For the leader of any human enterprise, the most important single responsibility is to ensure he has a successor. Rav Schneerson not only failed in this regard, but actively prohibited Chabad from appointing a new Rebbe. Why? Even Moshe Rabbenu and Dovid Hamelech were mortal men and needed Yehoshua and Shlomo to carry on after them.
It’s time for Lubavitch to find a new Rebbe, and it may be prudent this time around to look for a Cohen or Levi.
Who the heck is gutnick anyway? Whether or not I agree with him on this, why does he have any more say than anyone else? He may huve bucks but her certainly doesn’t have brains.
Everyone is right, Moshiach cannot come from the dead. but the Lubavitchers that believe the Rebbe to be Moshiach also say that he is not dead, they say that he is in concealment. In fact, on the Rebbe’s Matzivo it clearly says,Geniza, that the Rebbe is hidden. You need a source for this, see Rashi in Daniel 12:12.
Hey, thats Rav Beck Shlita on the Bima.
Seems to me there are a few possibilities as to R’ Groner’s intentions, neither particularly palatable:
1) He really believes that the late Rebbe is Moshiach, but thinks it should be covered up. That puts him with the Shepselach of the 18th century, which included many good citizens and even Gdolim.
2) He really believes that the late Rebbe, being late, can no longer be Moshiach, and wants to take down the sign because it’s patently untrue; or
3) less palatably, until now he has believed the idea of Rebbe being Moshiach after death is wrong, but not heretical. So he has tolerated the sign in the shul
The problem with that is, I have heard a similar psak (wrong but not heretical), from both a pre-1994 Lubavitcher and a major Canadian rav. However, tolerating the outward manifestation? Would anyone take a shul seriously that had a John 3:16 sign hanging up? (For Gd so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son yada yada)? Even if the sign was a minority position tolerated by the majority? So how can we accept non-Meshichists who tolerate these signs?
Actually, it doesn’t appear to be so whacked out to compare the Lubavitcher Rebbe with Dovid Hamelech. Dovid Hamelech in his times was the Nasi Hador, as is/was the Lubavitcher Rebbe, at least according to his chassidim. Additionally, the neshama of the Nasi Hador is inherited from each Nasi to the next, since Moshe Rabbeinu, with each Nasi “adding to it” with his own qualities. If anything, by the time the neshama has reached the Rebbe, it could be even greater than it was in previous years!
An additional point; it’s quite interesting that you brought up the connection with Dovid Hamelech, because Dovid Hamelech himself faced incredible opposition from the people who were great tzaddikim in those times before he was able to be crowned king with all pronouncing “Yechi Adoni Hamelech Dovid L’olam” and “Dovid Melech Yisrael Chai V’kayam!” (familiar phrasing, no?)
Without getting into the issue, I don’t think you can say that the shul was hijacked. I don’t know that many Jewish communities operate as total democracies. The members of the board mentioned ARE the spiritual leaders of the community, and are not meturofim by any stretch of the imagination. Rabbi Cohen is the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva Gedola of Melbourne (a graduate of Gateshead), Rabbi Glick is the principle of the Yeshiva College elementary school and a Talmid Chochom and Yirei Shomayim (educated in Telz), Rabbi Groner is Rabbi YD Groner obm’s son and has been involved in the shul and community matters for many years before his father’s passing, Shmuel Gurwitz is the principal of the Beis Rivkah girls school, Rabbi Telsner is Rabbi Groner’s son-in-law and took over the rabbonus after Rabbi G’s passing, and Rabbi Yurkowitz is Rabbi Groner’s son-in-law and director of Chabad of Malvern.
Rabbi Gutnick, on the other hand, is influential, with all due respect, mainly because he is wealthy and is the son of Rabbi Chaim Gutnick obm who was a well respected Rov in Melbourne. The others mentioned, New and Vorscheimer, are baalei-batim. Just to give some perspective.
Believing the late Lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach is shtus but not kefirah. however, there are many who take it further saying the rebbe never died, the Rebbe runs the world, etc, thus conflating him with Hashem, cholilah. That is where it gets dangerous. Hashem hu ha’Elokim, ein od.
who do you think put the sign up 18 years ago in the first place?
thats right…RABBI JOSEPH GUTNICK !
In 1991 over 1,000 Chabad Rabbis signed a Psak Din (a formal Jewish Legal Ruling) stating that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was presumed [assuredly/with assurance] to be Moshiach (Judaism’s King Messiah.)
The Lubavitcher Rebbe identified himself in no uncertain terms as Moshiach Tzidkeinu during numerous Chassidic discourses. He gave numerous Blessings to those who informed him of their decision to go public with this perception.
In 1994 he died (that’s one version). Chabad-Lubavitch as a group thereupon split into two factions. One faction continues to this day to publicly claim that the Rebbe will return to complete the second plateau criteria of Maimonides’ Laws of Kings Chapter 11 Law# 4 which is Judaism’s bottom Legal line on who and what Moshiach will be and must do.. The other faction has decided to keep quiet and see how things turn out.
Most people miss the point. Although they messed on the iker of Moshiach since the rambam paskens like Shmuel “ain bein …elo shibud malchuyot.
The greater problem is the iker of nevuas Moshe. Ask a chabadnik who is greater the rebbe or Moshe Rabbeinu and you wont get a straight answer(youll get something like Ispashtusa demoshe …)
Hashem Yeracheim
I’m an Anti-Meshichist and I don’t say Yechi but I also don’t approve of the enromuse venum filled Sinas Chnum by my fellow Anti-Meshichisten, who are all preoccupied with an agenda of pure Machlokes, against anyone who does say Yechi and against anyone who has such a sign displayed.
I have often argued with my fellow Anti-Meshichiten as to why they are so filled with so much needless hatred against the Meshichisten, instead of displaying more Ahavas Yisroel to our fellow Lubavitchers, who may have a different Shita.
The reply I got from most of my fellow Meshichisten was that the real reason why we, Anti-Meshichisten are so filled with so much hatred against the Meshichiten is because deep down we know the truth that the Meshichisten are right and we feel very badly about it because we don’t have as much Emunah in the Rebbe as the Meshichisten have and so rather than us feeling bad, we can make ourselves feel better by trashing anyone who holds differently than ourselves.
I would like to thank Mr. Gutnick for making a tumul about the Yechi sign.
Not because Gutnick is right.
On the contrary he is dead wrong and that sign will never come down but it is thanks to Gutnick that now, the Yechi sign in the Shull is not only displayed in the shull but thousands and thousands of people in the media are talking about it and so this brings much more publicity to the sign.
The purpose of the sign after all is to bring it to the forefront of the public awareness and Gutnick has not only not succeeded in taking down the sign, in fact he played right in to our hands to have that sign gain even more and more publicity so the entire world will continue talking about these very important issues and the fact that the Rebbe is indeed Moshiach, will never be forgotten.
Thank you Mr. Gutnick and please keep it up so that this sign will keep on being more and more and more famous and talked about.
there isnt a single jew in australia that surpasses Rabbi Telsner in Torah/chassidus. He is a boki in shas and poiskim and has served as a Dayan when called upon to do so in London. Australia should consider themselves fortunate to have such a gaon in their midst. in the litvisher velt he would be a gadol. He should be addressed as Dayan. and just for good measure for the litvisher oloim his formative years were in torah vdaas. He is also a groiser onov and doesnt make anyone feel small and insignificant. those that have opposed him should publicy ask him for mechilah.
I really think that the article needed a quote from Mr. Yudi New, who was mentioned but not quoted. Why only Vorsch? New has much to say on this topic. I wonder what Plugger (or Brother Bugger) would say…
Please demand the all voices of reason be heard!!!
Your far from simple your simple shebesimple. talking of am haratzes and lehavdil of sukka, take out a Rema hilchos sukkah and simply read simen 639 sif 2 it is much too clear that they were noheg not to sleep in the sukkah and the rema and ALL the meforshim go out of there way to explain why (irrespective of the weather!) but the fact remains! it is clearer in the rav shulchan Aruch see there! None of the Gedolei Haposkim say to be mevatel the Minhag. The one who made a tumel about sukkah writes and testifies and signs that he does not know halacha. this is the best proof! and the same goes for you. shame on you! its time to sit down and learn, and you may be zocheh one day that it will be “Sam Chaim”, some day! by the way you may need hagalah and libun much before pesach and for klei Cheres “Shviroson zuhi Takanoson” for the way you speak!
It’s high time that the sane leaders of Lubavitch to publicly declare all Meshichistim “misguided”lost souls and cut their losses in order to save the dignity and respect of authentic Lubavitch in the eyes of Klall Yisroel.
A cancer needs to be removed before it’s too late. Sometimes it’s a painful process
but a necessary one. Declare “Mi l’Hashem Elay” and let the chips fall where they may. Rabbi Gutnick is a hero with a backbone and can help galvenize the rest of the sane Lubavitch leaders to start acting responsibly and do what desperately needs to be done sooner rather than later. If this would have been done 15 years ago it would have been 10 times less painful. Do it while there is still time.
Moshiach Has Been Appointed
The appointment of Dovid King Moshiach has already occurred, as is written “I have found my servant Dovid, I have annointed him with Holy oil” (Tehillim 89:21), and there needs only to be the acceptance of his kingship by the people and the connection between the king and the people in complete revelation.
Talk of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Mishpatim 5751 (1991)
Those who still insist on going around publicizing that the Rebbe is King Moshiach should consider these points:
1) The Rebbe made it abundantly clear that Rabbi Wolpo, by publishing his ideas, chas v’sholom, which can, and does, merachek thousands of Yidden to Chabad and to learning Chassidus, is waging “a specific and general war ” against the Rebbe, and is actually the Rebbe’s adversary, and in reality is fighting against Chabad Chassidus and Malka Moshicha.
2) The fear of the Rebbe that many thousands will stop learning chassidus (which the Rebbe stressed that is what will bring moshiach according to the Baal Shem Tov) has come to pass. Thousands have stopped learning Chassidus as a result of such conduct. Exactly as the Rebbe prophesised.
3) In one of his last written replies the Rebbe once more stressed, “There is no obligation at all to try to identify who is Moshiach -. but there is a positive commandment of the Torah to love each and every Jew.”
4) The only case where it would seem permissible would be if the Head shliach rules that his local place this activity is safe from the danger of distancing Yidden. And even then all activities would have to be in a way of ‘ofen hamiskabel’ in a way that there is no chance that even “ONE Jew,” in the words of the Rebbe, (summer 5751) will be turned off from learning chassidus. Thus if wearing a yechi yarmulaka or saying yechi after davening in shul, has a chance of alienating even a single Jew from learning chassidus, then automatically the Rebbe absolutely forbids it.
5) As to the question how come the Rebbe encouraged Yechi in 5753, how come there were positive answers?
It’s very simple.
This very question is the very question shluchim asked the Rebbe specifically during 5753, during the period the Rebbe was encouraging Yechi on the balcony, and the Rebbe clearly indicated his response; there is a difference in expressing these beliefs within Anash and outside Anash. There is a difference between fabrengen among Chasidim and print. (See Tammuz 5744 above.) Believing ones Rebbe might be Moshiach is a legitimate belief. Indeed it is known that many Chasidim of previous generations, including non-Chabad Chasidim considered privately their Rebbe as Moshaich. The early chassidic writings are full of this, about the Baal Shem Tov, the Noam Elimelech, the Yismach Moshe, etc. But these was a PRIVATE beliefs held within and among Chasidim. But once such a belief goes out into the public, especially when in print, it can, and does, cause much damage, as the Rebbe with much anguish stressed again and again. It pushes away people from chassidus and Chabad. Nowhere do we see the Rebbe clearly and specifically changing his mind about this central and consistent concern. The result of ignoring the Rebbe’s extremely clear and numerously repeated instruction is painfully becoming more and more evident.
May we be zocheh that in the zechus of fulfilling the Rebbe’s instructions accurately and with honest integrity we should be zocheh that all our hard work of being mekarev yidden to Yiddishkeit and spreading the wellsprings of Chassidus (as the Rebbe stressed this is our mission while we wait for Moshiach to reveal himself, Parshas Tazria 5752, — 2 weeks before 27 Adar) should finally bring Moshiach down into this world miyad mamash, bimehari v’yomeinu. And may we merit having our Rebbe lead us to the Geulah haamitis v’hashlaima.
As a member of anash in Melbourne and a member of yeshivah shul, I firmly believe that most Lubavitchers here are against and even upset by the sign. Many (including myself) did not sign the petition out of respect for Rabbi Groner or fear of “mixing into politics and machlokes”. (Someone told me that the petition was brought to at least 10 prominent Chabad rabbis in Melbourne, ALL who were against the sign but NOT ONE signed the petition for fear of “mixing into politics”). When once in a while someone says yechi in the kollel minyan only a handful of people respond (maybe 3 or 4) out of 50 or so daavening there. I have watched closely time and time again, VERY few people say it. It really makes no sense to have the sign up and anyone who thinks it does not turn people away from Chabad and Chassidus is either in denial or VERY insulated.
#117 : I doubt at this point many misnagdim are curious enough about what the rebbeh a”h said or didn’t say on the subject. The message that chabad iitself is meshachist has gone out very strongly by the few who spread it and the many who don’t contest it. At this point to the minds of most traditional Jews there is no reason to investigate what the rebbe a”h wanted or intended because even if the facts prove the rebbe a”h was himself anti-meshachist it hasn’t prevented chabad of 2010 from spinning off from the rest of us.
(Yes, I know, chabad has ahavas yisroel, chabad houses, we depend on you when we are stuck in Oshkosh, no one else is doing kiruv in far flung corners of the earth, Aish is just a copycat, etc., we’ve heard it all before but it is just a feeble and desperate attempt to change the topic.)
If you want to get your side of the story out you’ll have to undo the damage done by your leadership’s near-silence and half-hearted attempts to stop the spreading of the meshachist message.
Semantics and ambiguity won’t cut it. The only people who thought it did were those using these word games to avoid an unpleasant task that they feared would result in a schism within chabad.