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Ashkelon, Israel - Rabbi Elyashiv to Litzman: Don't Budge Barzilai Bones Since Its Not for Saving Lives

Published on: March 18, 2010 10:35 PM
By:  Jpost
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Ashkelon, Israel - Plans to build a rocket- and missile-proof new emergency room at Ashkelon’s Barzilai Medical Center were dealt a blow on Thursday when Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the top rabbinic authority for the Lithuanian haredi community, told Deputy Health Minister Ya’acov Litzman not to be complicit in moving graves to make room for the structure.

Elyashiv told Litzman during a meeting at the former’s Mea She’arim home not to enable the NIS 90-million construction since it did not constitute saving lives.

According to associates of Elyashiv, he had ruled that “not only would allowing the construction cause severe damage from the point of view of Jewish law, but it would also change the image of Israel into a grave-moving country.”

Litzman, of United Torah Judaism, insists that bones found on the site long planned for the new emergency room – determined by archeological experts to be of Christians from the Byzantine period – are “Jewish bones” that “can’t be moved” according to Halacha.

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Instead, Litzman wants the emergency room to be built on a more distant parking lot, which will cost NIS 100 million more and take 18 months longer to plan and put up.

An Israel Antiquities Authority study in 2008 of ancient remains found on the plot shows the bones are those of “Christians or pagans, (as was reported yesterday here on VIN News).



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Read Comments (38)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Mar 18, 2010 at 10:40 PM kim Says:

Reb elyashiv is right, the hundred mil shekel difference is a lot of money but us not saving lives by cutting costs.

2

 Mar 18, 2010 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:

I have a hard time seeing how halacha puts some Christian and pagan bones above the lives of Jewish emergency room patients.

3

 Mar 18, 2010 at 10:52 PM Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

4

 Mar 18, 2010 at 11:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

You're a Mechutzaf. And shame on you for stating your Daas Am Haaeretz.

5

 Mar 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM mg18 Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

To 3 who r. U to call rabbi elyashv just elyashiv you liberal self hating jew

6

 Mar 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

thats Rav Elyashiv! dont you dare take what he takes lightly, unless you know for a FACT whose bones they are. Im sure theyre not buried in their Yarmulkas genius! You know, for about 10 years, they were blaming Mordechai for the Jewish situation with Haman, until they realized it was their own stupidity and not having Emunas chachamim which lead them there! We have to learn already.
Moshiach Now.

7

 Mar 18, 2010 at 11:36 PM kechol asher yoroocha Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

I don't understand how one can argue with this psak from one of the foremost Poskim in our generation in such a fippant manner. This was a halachik question that was asked and the answer was given by someone who is and has been a recognized Halachik authority for close to 80 years ken yirbu. For someone to argue so offhandedly shows a tremedous irreverence to all that is sacred to us religous Jews and is entirely abhorent. In fact, had it not even been a psak issued rather an opinion offered by a gentile who was as wise and old (101 ka"h) as R' Elyashiv (a zakan ashmai in Talmudic terminology) it would still be deplorable to argue in such a manner. I sincerely hope that who ever wrote this inexcusable comment does a Cheshbon Hanefesh and realizes their grave mistake.

8

 Mar 18, 2010 at 11:43 PM yitzi Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

who the heck are u 2 decide that,who r u 2 put reb elyashiv down,what do u know 2 put down a adam gadol down like that????

9

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:03 AM What Chutzpah!! Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

You say hebrew words such as C'V yet you have ZERO regard for one of the worlds greatest gedolim! How dare you say "Elyashiv" without some sort of prefix....?!?!?!? Terrorist attacks for your info are directed by G-D and ONLY G-D. When we respect our gedolim and respect our ancestors bones we merit protection. When we have "Misyavnim" as yourself dominating Judaism-THAT is when we run into trouble. R' Aaron Leib Shteinman warned then PM Barak that his "religious war" against the Chareidi sector would cost Israel dearly. AS he explained,when the Israeli govt begins harassing the Chareidim,G-D has to send them an Intifada to keep them preoccupied. Barak fell together with all his nefarious plans. But our gedolim live on. It is high time people like you realize that we only exist because of them. R' Elyashiv gave a psak halacha here not a political speech. Respect it!! How do you have the nerve to question a gadol's psak?? And to bring financial issues into play by saying that he's ready to "waste 100 mil nis"?? How dare you? It is the plumetting of yiras shamayim that you display that causes me more concern for terrorist attacks that the extra two years to change plans.

10

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:10 AM What Chutzpah!! Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

It all depends on what you call "experts". I will rely on R' Elyashiv Shlita while you will feel comfortable sleeping at night relying on the "experts". Don't you realize the "experts" were likely induced into saying they're Christian bones? As a side note; I am sure Litzman didn't just have a dream that they are Jewish bones. Quite obviously there are conflicting opinions. The complete lack of respect for gedolim you display is appalling! You had better do Teshuva and beg R' Elyashiv Shlita mechila while you still can. I don't envy your share in the next world should you not.

11

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:34 AM Anonymous Says:

The article says the top arechologists in EY at the Antiquities Authority ruled that these are Christian bones and does not provide the basis for the contrary conclusion by r litzman or r elyashiv that these are jewish bones warranting protection. Also note that the above article reprinted by VIN does NOT use titles such as rav or rabbi for most of its references to either Litzman or Elyishavi so no disrepect was meant by using their last names only. The key point here is that the real experts have ruled these bones are not jewish remains and the rabboninm come along and dispute that conlusion with no evidence. We don' have NIS 100 million to waste on their speculation, putting aside the risk to the public saftey.

12

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:37 AM KIm Says:

Be carefule with the coals of talmidei cachomim so you shall not be burnt... -Gemara

13

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:37 AM Anonymous Says:

to number 3. just a warning u better ask mechilla from those gedolim (rabbi lizman and rabbi elayashev shlita) before its too late just warning you those who start wioth gedolim have a bitter end.

14

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:41 AM Kim Says:

Obviously this is waht the Torah wants, what's more to disscuss??

15

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:45 AM Expert in Halacha or In Archeology Says:

If I want to know if my chicken pupik is kosher or treif, I know who I will ask.

But if I want to find out if graves or Jewish or not, I'm going to the expert. And the Rabbonim, may they live to arichas yamim plus a few extra, are not the experts.

Who remembers just a few years ago they found graves in Yerushalayim with crosses and other Xtian symbols and the Rabbis poskened they were Jewish.

One of the archeologists went to the Rabbonim privately and asked them why they said they were Jewish when there were Xtian symbols all around.

The Rabbis answered, It's because of the Biryonim. They were afraid to say the graves were not Jewish.

An emergency room saves Jewish lives. I don't understand their psak.

16

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

This is total madness. The experts say the bones are not yidden but christians yet Litzman and Elyashiv insist to the contrary and would waster NIS 100 million and nearly two years to accomodate a purely political agenda of the chareidim. If there is c/v another wave of terrorist missle attacks and the emergency facilities are inadequate, they will be held responsible for thier irresponsible decision.

It hurts to see such "bizuyin talmidei chachamim" especially of this great "gadol hador "

There is a "chiyuv machua" and it is time to consider what the Rabanim in Isreal claim that we must ban all chareidy web sites.
If such comments can be seen it's not appropiate for a frum jew to read it and it might even be against the Halacha.

17

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:56 AM to 3 Says:

you make me sick please don't post here again .

18

 Mar 19, 2010 at 01:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Expert in Halacha or In Archeology Says:

If I want to know if my chicken pupik is kosher or treif, I know who I will ask.

But if I want to find out if graves or Jewish or not, I'm going to the expert. And the Rabbonim, may they live to arichas yamim plus a few extra, are not the experts.

Who remembers just a few years ago they found graves in Yerushalayim with crosses and other Xtian symbols and the Rabbis poskened they were Jewish.

One of the archeologists went to the Rabbonim privately and asked them why they said they were Jewish when there were Xtian symbols all around.

The Rabbis answered, It's because of the Biryonim. They were afraid to say the graves were not Jewish.

An emergency room saves Jewish lives. I don't understand their psak.

What? you don't understand? I assume you care more for jewish lives than Harav Aliyashuv.. (Chas Vesholom) what a moron!

19

 Mar 19, 2010 at 01:07 AM Don't understand Says:

Why doesn't missile proofing an emergency room constitute protecting lives, or is that any different than saving lives?

And don't jump all over my query, Biryonim commentators, I'm only asking a question, all I'm looking for is a clarification.

20

 Mar 19, 2010 at 01:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Expert in Halacha or In Archeology Says:

If I want to know if my chicken pupik is kosher or treif, I know who I will ask.

But if I want to find out if graves or Jewish or not, I'm going to the expert. And the Rabbonim, may they live to arichas yamim plus a few extra, are not the experts.

Who remembers just a few years ago they found graves in Yerushalayim with crosses and other Xtian symbols and the Rabbis poskened they were Jewish.

One of the archeologists went to the Rabbonim privately and asked them why they said they were Jewish when there were Xtian symbols all around.

The Rabbis answered, It's because of the Biryonim. They were afraid to say the graves were not Jewish.

An emergency room saves Jewish lives. I don't understand their psak.

If you really want to understand the pesak I have an idea. You should blog less and learn more. "Yagatu velo Mutazsa al taamin"

I wonder in which Mikvah you heard this story, if you are gullable enough to believe evry story then you should accept a Gadols peask as well.

21

 Mar 19, 2010 at 01:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Expert in Halacha or In Archeology Says:

If I want to know if my chicken pupik is kosher or treif, I know who I will ask.

But if I want to find out if graves or Jewish or not, I'm going to the expert. And the Rabbonim, may they live to arichas yamim plus a few extra, are not the experts.

Who remembers just a few years ago they found graves in Yerushalayim with crosses and other Xtian symbols and the Rabbis poskened they were Jewish.

One of the archeologists went to the Rabbonim privately and asked them why they said they were Jewish when there were Xtian symbols all around.

The Rabbis answered, It's because of the Biryonim. They were afraid to say the graves were not Jewish.

An emergency room saves Jewish lives. I don't understand their psak.

At least you end off by saying "I don't understand his psak". Noone ever said that YOU have to UNDERSTAND his psak. Halacha and Torah in general is not always to be understood by the layman. Remember the Rashi you learned about Parshas Porah??

22

 Mar 19, 2010 at 01:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

The article says the top arechologists in EY at the Antiquities Authority ruled that these are Christian bones and does not provide the basis for the contrary conclusion by r litzman or r elyashiv that these are jewish bones warranting protection. Also note that the above article reprinted by VIN does NOT use titles such as rav or rabbi for most of its references to either Litzman or Elyishavi so no disrepect was meant by using their last names only. The key point here is that the real experts have ruled these bones are not jewish remains and the rabboninm come along and dispute that conlusion with no evidence. We don' have NIS 100 million to waste on their speculation, putting aside the risk to the public saftey.

Keep up the chutzpah! You and BORUCH HASHEM only one or two others on this site at this time are the biggest embarassment to our Jewish nation. Do you know the source of the article that you take it's words more seriously than R' Elyashiv's???? We don't refer to one of our biggest gedolim revered by ALL- chasidish,litvish,sephardi.....(even if they don't follow his piskei halocha)without a prefix. Just because the article which obviously came from the media refers to him in that manner does not give a commenter on this site the right to repeat it. But the sheer chutzpah displayed by this ignoramous shows why he can refer to a gadol of such stature just by his name.

You say: "We don' have NIS 100 million to waste on their speculation, putting aside the risk to the public saftey.” Hey! Maybe if you will improve in your Yiraas Shamayim and respect for gedolim which you sorely lack in,maybe we will have TRILLIONS of shekolim! Everything,be it money,safety...comes froom G-D. By realizing that we are his CREATURES and at his whim and by respecting his beloved gedolim who have toiled in the Torah for decades(R' Elyashiv Shlita is 100 yrs old Bli ayin hora)we will merit his love.

23

 Mar 19, 2010 at 02:33 AM yossi Says:

archeologists "suddenly" had a change of heart. untill recently they said they were jewish.

24

 Mar 19, 2010 at 03:27 AM Mr. Green Says:

Reply to #10  
What Chutzpah!! Says:

It all depends on what you call "experts". I will rely on R' Elyashiv Shlita while you will feel comfortable sleeping at night relying on the "experts". Don't you realize the "experts" were likely induced into saying they're Christian bones? As a side note; I am sure Litzman didn't just have a dream that they are Jewish bones. Quite obviously there are conflicting opinions. The complete lack of respect for gedolim you display is appalling! You had better do Teshuva and beg R' Elyashiv Shlita mechila while you still can. I don't envy your share in the next world should you not.

R' Elyashiv Shlita never saw these bones. It's a game that is played by the charedi community every time someone digs up a bone. Everybody knows that they are not Yiden. But it's action, and it makes us feel sanctimonious. So R'Elyashiv's askanim get into the game, and he "keilu" paskens. Gimme a break.

25

 Mar 19, 2010 at 04:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Eliyashiv shlita, if he knew the REAL situation would posken the opposite. Unfortunately because of liars and cheats and people with agendas around the gedolim, they very often aren't given the REAL information to make a REAL decision. Rav Eliyashev most likely hasn't heard that the archeologists know for a fact they are goyim because the people around him have most likely distorted the truth! We aren't getting psaks from the gedolim, we're getting psaks from the secretaries and Gabbis! Partially because they have successfully locked the Gedolim up in ivory towers with sifrei kodesh and kept them out of our world, while holding the keys and manipulating US and the gedolim, unlike the previous generation of Gedolim.

In computer programming they know, there is nothing wrong with the program, but "Garbage in, Garbage out," anyone who's gone to the gedolim in recent years knows this is true.

26

 Mar 19, 2010 at 07:13 AM Who's a layman Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

At least you end off by saying "I don't understand his psak". Noone ever said that YOU have to UNDERSTAND his psak. Halacha and Torah in general is not always to be understood by the layman. Remember the Rashi you learned about Parshas Porah??

I'm not a layman.

This is not a psak. There is no teshuvah.

It's an answer by someone with no first hand knowledge of the situation

27

 Mar 19, 2010 at 08:36 AM Banned Says:

Do these same "top arechologists" also claim that the world is billions of years old? Sorry, but they kind of lack credability.

28

 Mar 19, 2010 at 08:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Don't these "experts" have no problem all the years to move bones even when there is certainty that the graves are jewish? so who can even trust them?

29

 Mar 19, 2010 at 09:27 AM Teaneck Jew Says:

The many comments about "Daas Torah" are really offt he mark. Rav Elyashiv is an old man, very wise and sophisticated but much under the influence of Haredi publicists who use him for political and economic purposes. This issue of building the emergency room on the spot is a halachic issue and not a matter of of charismatic aythority orr Ruach Hakodesh. Different poskim can come to different conclusions. Eilu Velihu are concepts in Judaism and even Rav Elyshiv does not have the final word. The is a practical issue to be decided on facts and not from the rejectionist world of Haredi jJudaism who do not value the Jewish medinah.

30

 Mar 19, 2010 at 09:45 AM Anonymous Says:

Why dont they do DNA on the bones and get real facts to give the Poskim?

31

 Mar 19, 2010 at 09:54 AM vechin lomar Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Eliyashiv shlita, if he knew the REAL situation would posken the opposite. Unfortunately because of liars and cheats and people with agendas around the gedolim, they very often aren't given the REAL information to make a REAL decision. Rav Eliyashev most likely hasn't heard that the archeologists know for a fact they are goyim because the people around him have most likely distorted the truth! We aren't getting psaks from the gedolim, we're getting psaks from the secretaries and Gabbis! Partially because they have successfully locked the Gedolim up in ivory towers with sifrei kodesh and kept them out of our world, while holding the keys and manipulating US and the gedolim, unlike the previous generation of Gedolim.

In computer programming they know, there is nothing wrong with the program, but "Garbage in, Garbage out," anyone who's gone to the gedolim in recent years knows this is true.

your 100 percent right.The only expert who Reb Elyashuv is allowed to listen to is R' Efrat A his henchmen R' Shmuel Aurbach who control everything going on over there.Even Reb elyashuv'v signiture is up for sale ($1500 talking about bizoyon hatora).We are all too familiar with the "experts" on the shaitle fiasco. Belive me I've been around the block with many Gedoilim & Rebbes the only one u can trust in that cicle in the name of Reb elyashuv who is 100 percent acceptable is Reb Ben Zion Kook

32

 Mar 19, 2010 at 10:00 AM Pikuach Nefesh Says:

With the return on Kassam rockets to the south, the residents of Ashkelon need the best and most efficient hospital built as quickly as possible. Figure out leaders, MK, rabbinical poskim - how to accomplish this goal? Living people and keeping them alive is our most important goal in toras hashem.

33

 Mar 19, 2010 at 10:38 AM aureviourshoshannah Says:

Great to see sinas chinum is alive and well, don't expect the third beis hamikdosh any time soon, the way people have reponded to number 3 is disgusting - take the shame people. Good shabbes to all.

34

 Mar 19, 2010 at 12:21 PM Anonymous Says:

How can there be so many kano'im commenting on VIN? Didn't Rav Elyoshiv shlita asser the internet?

35

 Mar 19, 2010 at 02:28 PM baal tzdaka Says:

look how Kupat Hair uses his name for whatever they want.is it bizoyon hatora to say they are full of it?

36

 Mar 19, 2010 at 04:37 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't even think Elyashiv and Litzman know what archeology is let alone have the ability to review the evidence and date ancient bones. They are good at interpreting chalaha because that is the only subject they learned in their lives. If the experts in their fields tell you that these bones are not Jewish, you better listen to them and save the economy 100 million that can be used for poor yidden with 12 kids and no jobs. Delaying construction of a rocket proof ER building for some ancient graves is tantamount to criminal negligence in the name of Charedi authoritative politics against the government. Will Litzman take responsibility if tomorrow Hamas starts rocketing the hospital and it is not fortified properly because of his delays? Of course not, he will say Hashem is in charge of everything not people.

37

 Mar 20, 2010 at 09:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

How can there be so many kano'im commenting on VIN? Didn't Rav Elyoshiv shlita asser the internet?

#34 said, “ How can there be so many kano'im commenting on VIN? Didn't Rav Elyoshiv shlita asser the internet?”
Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai was against working, we don't follow that shita. That doesn't mean you can mock him. My friend If you are not trained in logic don't attempt to debate.

38

 Mar 20, 2010 at 09:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

I don't even think Elyashiv and Litzman know what archeology is let alone have the ability to review the evidence and date ancient bones. They are good at interpreting chalaha because that is the only subject they learned in their lives. If the experts in their fields tell you that these bones are not Jewish, you better listen to them and save the economy 100 million that can be used for poor yidden with 12 kids and no jobs. Delaying construction of a rocket proof ER building for some ancient graves is tantamount to criminal negligence in the name of Charedi authoritative politics against the government. Will Litzman take responsibility if tomorrow Hamas starts rocketing the hospital and it is not fortified properly because of his delays? Of course not, he will say Hashem is in charge of everything not people.

Honestly how many lives is this going to save. Do you know the statistics. What are the chances the ER will be hit? What is the expected damage if that happens? Besides how can you trust archeologists who couldn't care less about Kovod Hameis. Anyone with any sense knows the Israeli government has a cheskas shakran. I also don't understand how you can be so flippant with Rav Elyashiv. Even if you are 99% sure you are correct, you realize you are wagering a 99% chance of self smugness against a 1% of gehennom. And I think most people here put your chances at alot less than 99%.

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