New York – In the world of Chareidi Cyberspace, there are numerous battles that pit one frum website against another. “Website A” attacks “website B” labeling them horrific Lashon Horah-mongers. “Website B” attacks “Website A” and “Website B” in much the same manner. “Website D” accuses “Website A” of putting up false content. Website B claims that they have Rabbinic backing on everything they do. And the story goes on and on. And on.
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“This website must be shut down!” is a cry often heard.
None of the guest editors (often anonymous)and “Internet Rabbis” argues with the notion that Lashon Horah is wrong. All agree to this basic and essential point. What they all do, however, is argue that what they write is, in fact, not Lashon Horah – but what their competitors write is, in fact, full-fledged Lashon Horah.
When a religious Jew is accused of stealing from gentiles, reporting upon it has been labeled as terrible Lashon Horah. Yet when someone in the government of Israel is accused of taking bribes to expedite something these same websites that “shrei chai vekayam” report upon the very same piece of news! Is this not sheer hypocrisy?
Perhaps the difference is that this one is here and local whereas the other one is happening in Eretz Yisroel – very far away. But this is hardly a halachic argument. It is just hypocrisy.
Some websites lay the claim that they never print Lashon Horah at all and that they remain above the fray. Except when they don’t. And they don’t.
Some blogs and websites even seem to be proud of printing what others believe are pure straight Lashon Horah.
What is really going on here is that everyone seems to have their own definitions, their own standards, and their own “heterim.” It is a type of game that they all play where they say, “What you are printing is ‘Lashon Horah’ and we do not print ‘Lashon Horah.’ And we redefine everything that we do to make sure that it is not considered Lashon Horah.”
What we have is the wild west where everyone has put on a badge and upholds law and order and defined by their own vigilante standards. What it comes down to is one big hypocritical joke. Not one of these websites has Rabbonim that say, “The buck stops here. I paskened that it is not lashon Horah.” They all have “anonymous Rabbonim” who do not give their names and do not stand behind what the websites do.
Some of the websites have an underlying philosophy. The philosophy is that Klal Yisroel is in major, major trouble based upon our issues of violating the law of the land and based upon our not keeping the Mitzvah of Kedoshim Teheyu (among other things). The thinking is that reporting about it will help stop it from spreading. Whether it really does help or not is another issue, but this is the theory.
Some websites are proud of the fact that they never retracted anything. Other websites are proud that they never publish anonymous articles. All of the websites admit that often there is Lashon Horah in the comments that they do allow in and that they have to be more vigilant. What ends up happening is that they edit out comments that they disagree with but leave in any comments that agree with their own agenda.
What it all boils down to is that notwithstanding all the claims and all the self-righteous indignation, and all the finger-pointing and the talk about Lashon Horah, not one of the sites – not one of them will stand up to scrutiny.
A wise man once said that hypocrisy is the last bastion of morality. But this is an error. Hypocrisy is a poison that slowly works its way into the mind and soul of a person, of a people, and like a dog or wolf, nibbles and eats away. The first step to solving a problem is to realize and admit that we have a problem. Hiding behind hypocrisy will not do anyone any good at all.
The websites all know that it is the comment section that is often filled with Lashon Horah that attracts readers. And yet, only in rare situations have any efforts been made to rid the sites of these comments. What does it spell? Hypocrisy.
Many people meticulously avoid four letter words. This is a good practice to keep. But let us remember a simple bit of math. Hypocrisy is eight letters – two four letter words wrapped up and combined all in one.
So in conclusion, We are suggesting that the reason why some articles are avoided and some are printed is because of hypocrisy. But we could be wrong.
Why did so many Charedi websites report about the frum former mayor of Jerusalem and the Holyland accusations?
Does anyone out there have an answer?
i only read VIN because i believe that this is the most honest frum site, reporting news as it is, without an agenda.
btw i once saw (i think in Chofetz Chaim) that if 3 people already know of a story, it’s no longer considered Loshon Horah. now, if VIN publishes an article that’s already on other news sites there’s nothing wrong.
I wish the VIN staff good luck, and may they keep up their good work
In addition to the LH problem, I am repeatedly disappointed by two other aspects of the frum internet:
The first is the amount of rabbi-bashing that goes on. It goes far beyond the level of simple halachic disagreement into the area of questioning of motives or even commitment to Torah.
The second is the repeated bashing of the state of Israel. It rivals that of some of the anti-Semitic apologists for Arab terror.
The only good thing about this is that the non-Jewish world pretty much ignores our frum sites. Chas v’shalom we ever find links to anti-Israel comments on this site on Stormfront or even Huffington Post. We should be more careful about what we write here (myself included).
wow kol hakavod! the answer is that some people call themselfs yesivish when in fact they are far from it, on the contrary they are the ones causing fights amongst K”Y.
and the same sites use their public www to voice and promot fighting,
but the truth is it all boils down to MONEY! whom they get paid from and who they have to pay!
it has nothing to do with israel or not it has to do with what will have readers reading and what will cause them to continue reading!
VIN is were honsety is and the otherones should be banned!
the chofetz chaim actually says that it is STILL LOSHON HORA!!!!!
There are more pertinent questions we need to ask ourselves. The answers may strengthen us, weaken us, or redefine us, but avoiding them is not an option.
1. In much the same way as the gemoro discusses the difference between a laav and a laav she’ayn bo mayseh, perhaps we need to recognize the entirely new and different communications paradigm we live and struggle with. Perhaps we need courageous poskim who are not only saintly and illuim g’murim, but also knowledgable about the real everyday practical world beyond the walls of the Yeshivos, who are able to vault over the askonim with agendas who surround them to tackle real issues in practical ways.
2. The one thing any objective observer will agree on is that even if it is being done in the wrong way, the explosion of news and opinion about the multiple crises of our own making facing the chareidi world speaks to the chareidi public’s anxiety and dissatisfaction with the unsuccessful, impractical, sometimes hypocritical and often irrelevant guidance it is receiving from those who it turns to for guidance. The chareidi public wants guidance, but like it or not it no longer wants to be told how to think.
Sorry but what you call “Israel-bashing” is a very legitimate hashkofo. If you think those of us who negate the secular state are incorrect, then debate. If you cannot debate the issues on the merits, then forever keep your peace because unlike the secular state, we are not going away.
To highlight the LH hypocrisy: In the Holyland scandal when Olmert was mentioned – no problem. A few days later when the chreidi mayor was mention then big LH problem. Both involved a situation in Israel but LH against the less frum is OK – especially the MO’s and YU
All the prohibitions about believing lashon hara also apply to believing accusations of lashon hara. Be especially skeptical about an accuser’s complaints about his ideological enemies.
its called apei tlosoh
A wrong does not make a right. It may be wrong to post news about iraeli corruption, yet this does not give the right to publish scandals that are close to home.
3. It should be no surprise that the chareidi public wants less and less to be told how to think; an unexpected consequence of the flourishing and growth of Jewish learning after the Shoah driven by Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov, Rav Kotler, Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Schorr, and many, many others is that we have a chareidi public more equipped than ever to know and access halachic sources and hashkafic sources. When this intersects with economic realities and a wholly different information and communications environment, they will react differently than they ever have, expect different things than they used to, and demand a less totalitarian leadership. This is what’s happening today.
4. When the chareidi world remembers that veohavto loreacho komocho includes every Jew, we will stop being the most self centered and selfish element of the Jewish people today. We might recognize we have a lot in common with others, including the problems like abuse, fraud, moral impropriety, influence peddling, organ trafficking, exploitation, and many other issues we so loudly deny we have.
“i only read VIN because i believe that this is the most honest frum site, reporting news as it is, without an agenda.”
!!!!!!!!!!
This is an easy one. True, this could be Loshon Horah. True, WEB sites enable such. However, the public no longer has trust in what is going on around them. Until there is some form of accountability, trust will not be rebuilt. Putting the facts out there will force those who are “in charge” to come clean and tell the Tzibur what is really going on.
It’s kind of like the banking system 🙁
it is not hypocrisy at all – it is a sin to speak lashon hara against frum bnei torah – it is a mitzvah to speak out against the evils of zionism, even cloaked in religiousity or even chareidi levush because zionism kills jews more than lashon hara (we have seen how many jews have died in wars and terrorism since the founding of this evil medinah – plus before hand too they were responsible according to many gedolim vd”l)
If we accept as valid the saying: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”, then it stands to reason that we must hear or read about those events we’re supposed to “remember”. Those must certainly include crimes (even accusations of crimes) publicly committed by those in our (the frum) community, R”L.
I’d rather hear or read such reports from “frum” sources who approach these matters with sensitivity, than from secular sources who would sensationalize and distort facts to increase sales or promote an agenda.
i only read vin because there is no loshon horao what so ever!!
VIN ur the best keep it up!
yeah! Vos iz nies really fits my agenda!
Great article. I hope more is done to address this issue, which I believe is a major one.
I can’t agree more with the notion that the “comments” section is one of the biggest problems and the fact, as you mentioned, that “What ends up happening is that they edit out comments that they disagree with but leave in any comments that agree with their own agenda.” Case in point: Recently I submitted a “comment” on an article with a Lashon-Hora-filled-comment-section of a so-called “mainstream yeshiva” news site (I will surely not name the site so as to avoid the Lashon Hora being discussed herein!) questioning the allowance of the site’s editors to publish the banter and hateful/nonsensical comments that it does, i.e., pure Lashon Hora. Guess what? They did not publish my comment! (Note: This was not a fluke — I subsequently submitted a second and separate “postscipt comment” which they in fact published, though in context made no sense as my original comment had been censored out. Laughable, yet sad.)
I was thinking: What can be done about this terrible trend? (I’m running out of room on allowed characters on this post. To be continued below…)
I understand the opposition to the internet – Justice Brandeis said ” sunlight is the best disinfectant” For too many our scandals were hushed up under the cover of lashon hara
I don’t think the issue is the reporting so much as the comments that follow. I am less concerned with possible LH in original articles (which is so subjective anyway) than the blatant sinas chinam against individual posters and/or subjects of the articles. The language that’s used, the name-calling…horrendous.
Since I was born a satmarer chossid even if I am not one anymore I have to say not the satmar chasidm or even the frumies do here the isreal bashing even when they disagree they don’t do it here
Its clean as daylight from the terminology when is see here isreal bashing that they come from the school of j street who most have some blogers here we all know that 90 percent of j street members are not jewish and this can be seen on those posts
I am surprised that VIN has lowered itself to this standard. You are better than that. Just do what you do best and let the public opinion, of which you have the significant majority, decide.
the person who wrote this article is clearly a hypocrite!
Maybe if they know the shmutz will come out they will think twice. Without VIN the whole abuse thing would still be in the closet.
I read VIN every day as a unbiased news source. They take on tough issues and don’t believe in the fake frumkeit other websites espouse. Keep up the good work!
In fact all of the stories of jailing people etc is loshon hora and vin and other sites needs to ask a ruv before repirting this
allowing comments is LH
For all you ‘frummies’, including the writer of the above article, and readers / posters here: There is a difference between Lashon Hora (Bad / Evil Talk) and Motzie Shem Raah (lit. Letting / putting out a bad name). The first is true, while the latter is not.
When not one, but 33 concert ban ‘rabbis’ put out full page newspaper ads and flyers about Lipa, and disseminate False information, without even reading the paper signed on / finding out the real story (of which there was none, and was just made up by a ‘frummie’ trouble maker, yimach shmo), it is no wonder there is anti – sentiment against ‘rabbis’. These are false ‘rabbis’, who are blind & lead the blind. It is against real ‘torah’ to listen to them as they are Liars and have permanently maimed the belief in them for sure and rabbis in general.
When you have ‘rabbis’ who lie, steal, cheat, bribe, abuse, make outrageous public / political statements, claims…. etc. (wether for direct / indirect monetary or fame gain), it is no wonder they are hated. It is time to oust them for power, and get rid of this cancer. When will people learn from these terrible experiences?
A serious issue with the comments is that people believe whatever any newspaper reports without doubting the author’s intent to subtly influence the reader to come to the conclusion they want them to. Therefore, our own people become easily brainwashed bythese talented reporters when reading whatever stories are posted and go on to post irresponsible, hate filled comments.
It would be instructive to know what percentage of frum Jews are regularly following these blogs, and how many are too busy with their occupations (learning, working, etc.) to be affected by any opinions posted on blogs.
VIN is a cut above the rest. Your article is measured, thoughtful and well written.
I dont see the problem these sites are only reposting news already available they are just making it easier to find whats the big deal
I think this VIN editorial is right. No matter how responsible a blogger or website owner tries to be – it’s hard to self censor. When we think we are right we proceed. But being right if one is Charedi is often different than being right one is an MO. Sometimes that crosses the line of LH. Wrote about this on my blog today
still dont give the right to report, the main problem is the comments
dear 43 – the cc does not paskin like that rambam entirely. It is at least a safaik and he has anbother way of reading it
There are many cases in talmud or in various seforim where Rav A makes a less than flattering comment about the holding or views of Rav B on matters of halacha. We don’t consider their comments to be LH. Likewise, when we debate here on VIN and express stong opinions on the actions or statments of other yidden, that is also not LH but a yiddeshe version of “protected speech”.
VIN is like Haaretz or NYTs of the frum world (lehavdeel). They don’t mind exposing some dirty truth that goes on in our world, while other frum papers are heavily censored by Rabbis and sponsors.
the other so called frum, yeshivish sites are totally biased and are pushing their own agenda. you cannot make any type of negative comments about Lakewood or any Rosh Yeshivas even if it is true and harmful to the klal. they only allow bashing of VIN.
why are they so afraid of the truth.
YASHER KOACH!!! We need much more of this sanity and much less of the fringe lunacy. However, in the (internet and other) news game, the lunatics get the ink.
Come on, give me a brake . There is no such thing as being objective,whether in print or media etc. Sensationalism and schmutz sells . You want truth ;Emes m’eretz tizmach. Emes is in der erd .
a few points:
1. although i am a daily reader of vin , & a measure of good has come from the site (credit is due for the diligent staff)
2.- there is plenty wrong with the site, i think that rav yaakov or rav pam zatz”l
whos loyalty to “EMES” was beyond question would be disturbed for a number of reasons
a. “lo sailaich rochil.. GOSSIP -much of which is irrelevant
b. can the VIN fans put a timer next to their screen & see JUST HOW MANY PRECIOUS HOURS were spent on “naies” ( i’m guilty!!)
c.” ABSOLUTE TRANSPARACY” IS NOT A torah theme – the masses cannot be expected to properly guage policy, much of the frum bashing can be understood in context ( not condoned ) much of the reckless comments can be answered w/ proper dialogue by people who know the real scoop
” not everything true must be said or may be said “ain lecha yafe min hatznius”.
d. if your opinion of klal yisroel has deteriorated since VIN thats catastrophic!!
e. reading so much news DESENSITIZES a person to feeling the tzaar … our emotions cant process so much info..
f. IF WE REALLY WANT TO SEE VOS IZ NAIES – VISIT the mosdos, kollelim ,hatzoloh garage,gemach offices, shiurai torah ,shluchei chabad…
According to my humble understanding,once a story is printed in a any newspaper,that can reasonably be assumed,that jewish people,a minimum of three,
will read,there is no longer the prohibition,of loshon horah.
The above is based on a Talmud verse in bana basrah.
So we are only dealing in extra zehirus,from Mischabed b’koklon chaveiroi.
This is important,but it does not rise to the level of Loshon Horah.
As the story of the former Jerusalem Mayor,was mefursam in the Media,in general,there is no Issur involved,and to the contrary,those who are in News business,
have a certain responsibility,to their business,to fully report,all the news,of interest,to its reades,who are the customers,of its business.
To all those who say that if three people know something then it’s not lashon hara – The Chofetz Chaim writes very clearly that the heter (which is a yeish omrim) of “apei tlasa” that three people know about it, is permitted in a very very unique situation and only “derech akraei” where the person is not intending to spread the information further.
I would be petrified to create such a website which allows comments. I try not to speak lashon hara, but of course I mess up some times. But if I were to allow a comment which is lashon hara, it will be seen by thousands and thousands of people., Hashem yirachem!!!
REMEMBER LASHON HARA IS ANYTHING, ANYTHING ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE!! ANYTHING – MY FRIENDS WE HAVE TO STOP ALL WEBSITS FROM ALLOWING COMMENTS.
I WRITE THIS WITH A CRYING HEART!!!
The chofetz chaim divides non observant jews in 3 categories,
1.The one who transgresses the torah out of ignorance, and is called a tinuk sh’nishbo, on such a jew there is no heter to speak LH
2. The one who received a jewish education and knows that he is doing wrong but he rebels due temptation, “mimer l’teuven”, on such a jew one may speak LH “only” if its for a constructive purpose but there is no issur on “onaas devorim – causing him hurt through the spoken word.
3. The apikores who is knowledgeable but rebels l’haches, on such a jew one may speak LH without any preconditions.
While on the subject the one big issue I have with vin is what seems to be sometimes lack of common sense when publishing some stories which could realy harm an individual or family and we can do just fine without it. You may say but it is already written elsewhere, true however the vin audience may be a little more intimite with the individual than say a ny post or journal news reader
according to the halaca you only accept that somthing is true , if you have 2 edim , if you can’t convit with the evidnce it is L”H rcmltz”l , if someone is only accused on somthing its also L”H
What loshon harah?The mayor has just been taken in for questioning,no indication at all that he’s guilty of anything.It seems now they want information from him on the Prime minister.