Melbourne, Australia – Outcry Over Dayans Order to Remove Vote on Yechi Sign in Shul

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    Melbourne's Yeshivah Centre. Photo: AJN fileMelbourne, Australia – Yeshivah Centre members in Melbourne have called for more democracy in the 52-year-old organization after accusations the facility’s dayan, Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner, censored their newsletter.

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    The Pesach edition of the publication included three articles discussing the value of removing or retaining the controversial “Yechi” sign on the wall of the main shul. But by the end of Pesach, the two pieces calling for a vote on its presence had been deleted from electronic and paper copies. When asked for confirmation, Rabbi Telsner told The AJN he knew “nothing about it”.

    However, in a letter to Rabbi Telsner, congregant David Werdiger claims that during a discussion they had had, the dayan admitted that he had instructed their removal.

    Werdiger said he objected to the censorship and would, after 40 years, stop praying at the main Yeshivah shul.

    “It is sad and ironic that this has happened in our community, many of whose founders lived under an oppressive regime in Soviet Russia where there was a standard method for dealing with dissent,” Werdiger said.

    The sign, according to an article by Yeshivah Gedolah head Rabbi Binyomin Cohen, implies that the late Lubavitcher Rebbe is the messiah and that he never really passed away.

    Despite the sign being up for some years, its presence came to the fore in January when Rabbi Telsner excised a small group of people – the “Moshiach Men” – from the community.

    A number of Yeshivah members called for the sign to be removed, claiming it was divisive and promoted disharmony, (as was reported by VIN News). Despite securing more than 100 signatures, Rabbi Telsner and the va’ad ruchni, or committee, ignored the request.

    Articles in the recent newsletter continued the debate about the Yechi sign. In the piece that was retained, Rabbi Cohen argued in favour of leaving the sign because that is what the late Yeshivah director, Rabbi Yitzchok Dovid Groner, wanted.

    “There should be enough room for all of us, and no-one should feel that his emunah [faith] is going to be somehow compromised by davvening [praying] together with another Jew who sees things very differently,” Rabbi Cohen wrote.

    Another congregant and one of the organisers of the petition, Yudi New, argued in the original newsletter that the shul was alienating members of the Jewish community, against its own philosophy. He called the sign a “slogan” and said there was no room for slogans in a place of worship, adding its benefits had not been made clear.

    On a more general note, New implored the centre’s leadership to welcome mature debate among members. “Whatever course the leadership and community charters, we must concede that Yeshivah has become a shell of its former self.”

    Another member, Pinchas Henenberg, also had his say before the newsletter was censored. “The issue is not going to go away by itself – responding ‘no comment’ to the public and instructing mispallelim [congregants] to ‘listen to your leaders and put aside your own thoughts and concerns’ simply exacerbates the issue,” he wrote, before calling for a public members vote.


    **UPDATE** April 19 2010 8:05 AM

    David Werdiger informed VIN News that The letter he wrote to the Rabbi on this issue was leaked to the AJN and quoted without his consent and without any contact from the newspaper before publishing.

    Below Letter from Mr. Werdiger will be published in AJN this coming week.
    In your article (15/4) about recent happenings at the Yeshivah Centre, you quoted from a letter I wrote. This letter was sent to the rabbi and CC’d to a small number of stakeholders, and was subsequently forwarded to you without my knowledge or consent. The newspaper did not seek to verify the quote with its author, nor was I advised prior to publication that the letter would be made public. Unlike the others quoted in your article who wrote in the newsletter itself, my thoughts on this issue are personal and were clearly expressed in this way to a small group of people.

    If I wanted to write an open letter, I would have – there are plenty of channels of public communication available to me for this purpose.

    This is shoddy, disappointing and sensationalist journalism on the part of your newspaper.


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    163 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    1) the anj misquoted the dayan
    2) the shul committee decided to take it out for the articles were not allowed to be put in in the first place
    3)since when cant a dayan say what can go in HIS shul

    compromised
    compromised
    13 years ago

    It would appear that Rabbi Telsner has compromised his own position by publicly denying what he had already admitted to privately. Not a good look.

    Green Tea
    Green Tea
    13 years ago

    Im just curious, what is there to gain from the sign?

    For those that believe in Yechi, what benefit is there for it to posted?

    A shule member
    A shule member
    13 years ago

    Before everyone begins commenting, let us have the real info.
    1. This is an artical from an anti religious Jewish newspaper that is looking to make the frum look bad.
    2. Some of the names mentioned, never agreed or spoke to the news, they got the info from one person.
    3. The articles were put in the Yeshivah newsletter by mistake, as the Dayan had given a psak a few weeks prior and a reason for his psak, and there should not have been an article in his own shule newsletter against him or his psak in the first place. Outragious.
    4. Once the dayan gives the psak for his shule, if you are not happy with his psak then you are welcome to go to another shule without the sign. there are plenty of other shules.
    5. Majority of those that are against the sign, need to first lead and cunduct their life in all aspects according to the Chabad ethos ie. no TV at home, Go to the Mikvah before Davening, learn Chassidus and act like a chossid before you can contribute to what a Chabad shule should be.
    LeMaan Hashalom, Keep quiet and focus on your own Yiras Shamayim.

    Abe
    Abe
    13 years ago

    You can respectfully disagree chilukei deios should not cause sinah

    democracy
    democracy
    13 years ago

    there is not democracy in Torah
    Korach has all the Sanhedrim on his side,the 250 prominents ppl

    elections
    elections
    13 years ago

    The issue seems to be about elections and control – The Yeshivah Centre in Melbourne is probably the only communities to be ruled by an unelected bidy. In Crown Heights there was a psak that new elections be held because of irregularities with the last elecetion. If there were elections at the Yehsivah in Melbourne, there would be none of these issues

    Rabbi Telsner was not appointed by the community
    Rabbi Telsner was not appointed by the community
    13 years ago

    Rabbi Telsner was not appointed as rav because his position was seen as contensious. A recent shule survey conducted by the executive showed his continued position is untenable. R telsner’s response has been to try and assert his authority in the vein attempt that he will keep his job.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    The controversy is about a sign that claims the Lubavitch rebbe is moshiach and alive? Why is there even an issue over such a topic? Just remove the sign in presence of a Torah near by because it promotes apekores beliefs.

    Yeshivah Magazine
    Yeshivah Magazine
    13 years ago

    To number one, the shule committe acted on the instructions of Rabbi Telsner. He already admitted as much to Mr Werdiger.

    history of banned artciles
    history of banned artciles
    13 years ago

    The articles never went against the Psak of the Rav….they went through the history of Chabad in Australia, and that it was a community shule, founded in the psot holcaust times, that welcomed all. The writers wanted a shule free from slogans, so that Australian Jewry can continue to grow prosper

    Yudi New
    Yudi New
    13 years ago

    to Number 4 – Are you really a shule member or just spreading (misinformed) Lashon Harah the week after Parshas Tazriah-Metzorah?

    I was invited to write one of the articles which was pulled. There was no mistake.

    The articles did not go against the “Psak” – they respectfully called for discussion and debate on the Yechi issue. If you read my article it questioned how a Lubavitch shule could support an ethos of “like it or leave it” – sadly, many people have left over the last few months and the Shule gets emptier and emptier

    I did go to Mikveh this morning before davening with a Minyan and don’t have a TV – does that make my views more legitimate?

    Yudi New

    Melbourne Chabad
    Melbourne Chabad
    13 years ago

    Rabbi Telsner was never accepted or appointed by the community. He was pushed in by his father in law.
    This was, is and will be the problem as you can’t force a Rabbi onto a community, as the Rebbe said many times – BOIFEN HAMISKABEL !

    This sign is just a joke. It was originally put up by a troubled young man and only for a few days. 90% of the misspallelim in the shule think it is crazy.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    I’m not sure but my assumption is that the Dayan is the one who probably brought in all those who are now trying to overrule him. They’re baal tshuva who are somewhere between Chumash and Mishnayos. They have issues with “Yechi” signs???
    Also, from this story the Dayan sounds like a very serious person who’s NOT a Yechi person but for the respect of the previous Ruv there who doesn’t wanna remove the sign.
    Kol Hakavod to the Dayan and let’s hope for the real Moshiach to come quickly and ALIVE.
    P.s. One question I have to Yechi guys, if u believe that the rebbe is Moshiach, why don’t u believe that he’ll be able to stick up for himself, y u need to fight for his Living Status?

    Telsner must go
    Telsner must go
    13 years ago

    Telsner has divided a once proud and united community. He has told people who do not believe the Rebbi is Moshiach to leave the shule. In the last couple of months many long standing mispallelim and backers of the shule have left…it is a tragedy.

    Melbourne needs a community leader
    Melbourne needs a community leader
    13 years ago

    The Yeshivah Centre is suffering post Rabbi Groner z’l…a new and dynamic leader is need. Rabbi Telsner is destroying the place

    Not very Jewish
    Not very Jewish
    13 years ago

    This idea if a section of the community believe something they need a big banner to advertise their thoughts is weird and not vey jewish.
    Many people believe many things but I haven’t seen any shule with banners stating the opinions or beliefs of certain people.
    This is missionary stuff.

    Milburn
    Milburn
    13 years ago

    Why doesn’t Chaim Tzvi put a Moshiach sign up in his shule??

    The Tzig from Hepmstead
    The Tzig from Hepmstead
    13 years ago

    As an authentic Lubavitcher chosid of the Rebbe zatsal I can tell you that this sign is 100% percent against everything the Rebbe z’l stood for.I”m ashamed to say that signs like these make Lubavitch into a laughing stock.I would never have become a Lubavitcher had there been signs like these years ago.Enough is enough.Time for us to rejoin the mainstream

    mendel
    mendel
    13 years ago

    Chasidim, appreciate the Dayan you have, what we in London have lost, you have gained, you have a very nice and true Dayan, whether he did or did not say in private, well I was not present but he his human and for today’s standards a good Dayan.
    enjoy the Dayan and remember the Rebbe while your fighting

    TO #20
    TO #20
    13 years ago

    Why do you think we say Kidush livana outside? Because they started to say chay vikayam so they got kicked out of shul

    Isn't it ironic
    Isn't it ironic
    13 years ago

    to Mr New, sorry mate I’m a little confused.The people who authorised you to write an article ,were themselves by virtue of your argument not entitled to make such a decision.The irony is that this Shul committee consists of unelected Baal Teshuves who should be thankfull and greatfull for all Lubavitch and Rabbi Groner have given and continue to give them,how strange a world it is when Mr Hennenberg a member of this unelected non “Meruzah”Shul commitee maintains his authority while advocating‘listen to your leaders and put aside your own thoughts and concerns’ simply exacerbates the issue,” he wrote, before calling for a public members vote.Please resign from your position first don’t be in charge of something you were not elected to do then state your point of view.As to the merit or detriment of the sign ,if people were facing the front of shul and looking inside their siddurim instead of looking up to the womens section they wouldn’t even see the sign.I have no real basis for the assertion I am about to make I just somehow feel its true,and that is that opposition to the sign or the rav does not come from a good place .Peace out all

    770
    770
    13 years ago

    In many peoples opinion the Yechi sign is an “Avodah Zorah” so how can one prat in a room that has an Avodah Zorah?

    confused
    confused
    13 years ago

    1) David Werdiger never davens in the shul anyway. during the week he davens in the “budapest express (14 1/2 minute minyan in the kollel)”. he was there this morning. On shabbos he came rarely.

    2) the sign has been up for 18 years. where was Yudi New the past 18 years. why all of a sudden after Rabbi Groner dies, does he feel the courage to challenge the sign. Is it because he was afraid to speak the “truth” while R. Groner was alive???
    If he didn’t have the guts to say something the past 18 years, let him now hold his opinion to himself.

    Honorable
    Honorable
    13 years ago

    The Loshen Harah that people are using to blacken the name of a Rav and Dayan who is known world-wide for his knowledge and humility is an Aveira not easily forgiven. It is one thing to disagree and another to Levayesh Panim B’rabim.. As far as I know Rabbi Telsner had to go To Australia several times to be vetted, and gave up his home , his post in England, put himself far away from most of his family to help a community who was losing its Rav. He is not a man of Machlokeis , he tries to stay away from it. But as usual it does not pay to be good, and there are many people who envy the Yeshiva for having a man of his stature as a Rav..

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Most normal shuls, have an omud and an uhron, bimah as the artifacts that make up a bais medrash. Some may include a tuhvel of lamnatzeiach, a da lifney me atoh oimeid, these lubavitcher behaimes made lehavdil a yoizel of an eirlicher tzaddik that passed away and in his commemeration they hang up a yechi sign. TOIT MESHUGA. It seems like lubavitch got a bigger share of psych candidates then any other sect. These meshuguyim want you to accept and force upon you their nutty beliefs. Its just insane. Same goes for that behaima in some other shuls where a lubavitcher rabbi gets himself in, and starts conducting a conversion process.where all of a sudden they get a little power into their farshtupte kup and everybody has to take upon themselves oil malchus lubavitcher meshugaas, yeshi, moshiach FERD, BEHAIME MITZ HUT OFEN KUP, no matter if the go to a beis whatever, as long as you wear your hat and shrai yechi you can do anything you want, just say “YECHI” ten times and you’re converted. NUTS- TOIT MESHUGA. Its about time somebody woke up and is making a ruckus about being a NORMAL Lubavitcher chussid without the shtick.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Just look around in 770. It’s even written on the Arun Kodesh.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    as a (former) chabadnik, I found yechi distasteful. I ran from the place as the meshichistim came in. I loved the rebbi and wish that he were still alive, but alas, the reality is that we must continue. The yechi sign, their song, brings separation in chabad.
    HaShem yeracham onlainu!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    The chazal have said that the word of a Rav regarding his shul is absolute and final and challenging a Rav on matters of how the shul is administered is absolutly assur. So regardless of what you think on this whle “yechi” meshugaas (which I personally believe is an insult to the memory of the rebbe), the issue of the sign is not one that needs further discussion. If the Rav says to tear it down, it must ago.

    why attack werdiger
    why attack werdiger
    13 years ago

    he is a man of principal
    a man who is honest
    someone who is a big baal tzedaka
    he and his wife always help people
    his family donated a major part of the yeshiva

    take down the signs and lets get back to lubavitch regular not lunatics from tzfas

    a chabadnick
    a chabadnick
    13 years ago

    Take the crap down. It’s not Chabad and it’s not Jewish. It’s foolish, childish and inflammatory. Just think- what the Rebbe say?? Did I use the word think???

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    SIMPLE SOLUTION – Put a very nice curtain in front of the sign.

    For the meshichists the sign stays up and they know it’s there.
    For everyone else, the sign cannot be seen.

    I think most of the latter can live with that.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Most of the arguments above really don’t make logical sense, ask a someone who specializes in logic.

    eg If you have a TV, you don’t have the intellect to determine if the sign is good or bad, or, Rabbi Telsner is a good/bad Rabbi, and hence the sign is good/bad, or, the shule is Rabbi Telsner’s/the executives and he/they can do what he/they likes.

    May I humbly add that Rabbi Groner obm built up the shule with the monetary assistance of a lot of people, some of whom are now leaving the shule.

    California Friend
    California Friend
    13 years ago

    As one who learnt (and dormed) in 1414 with many australians, I consider myself a true friend and honorary Aussie. I am pained to see the destruction of such a fine kehilla, a kehilla that was the envy of other kehillos worldwide. Aside from the moshiach issue,I am not a meshichist.
    I hardly know r Telsner, from what I do know is that he is a Talmid chochom. I would ask, where in shulchan oruch, sichos, sefer minhogim etc does it say that a chabad shul must have a yechi sign?? Especially if it engenders machlokess.
    I don’t understand how a rov or community leader can stand by and see his kehilla disintergrating over a sign??!

    18 years
    18 years
    13 years ago

    18 YEARS is a chazaka (6 times)
    this is the shul , with the sign,you like it, you come, you do not like it, go somewhere else
    Nobody is forced to come to this shul

    Ex Talmid of YG Melbourne
    Ex Talmid of YG Melbourne
    13 years ago

    this is so so sad! i have never seen such childish behaviour in all my life!! is this really the biggest issue in the melbourne chabad community? maybe its the signs fault too that so many kids have turned away from chabad/yiddishkeit?? Poor Rabbbi Groner OBM having to look down on this rubbish!! you should all be ashamed of yourselves. GROW UP!!

    A word of good advice
    A word of good advice
    13 years ago

    I know nothing about Melbourne. But I have seen way more politics than I cared to. So I will say the following:

    This is a classic case of “Trojan Horse Politics.” I have seen it many times. This is how it works:

    1. Someone is not comfortable with whoever is in the position of authority (Rov, president etc.) for whatever reason.

    2. They make snide comments, but otherwise wait.

    3. Eventually, the person in authority will take an unpopular position.

    4. Now the troublemake gets up and attacks that decision, in a VERY PUBLIC MANNER.

    5. When the one in authority tries to defend himself, the troublemaker SUDDENLY REMEMBERS that the guy in charge is illegitimate in the first place.

    And the result, 6:

    The position is suddenly dependent on an issue which has no connection whatsoever.
    For some reason, everyone always falls for this and you get a community all boiled up in a machloikes.
    Judging from all the comments, that’s exactly what’s happening. Someone is making a cholent between the question of if there should be a yechi sign, and if the Rabbi was properly elected. They are two subjects which should to be addressed independently, and whomever is trying to fuse the two vchulu.

    I know nothing about Melbourne. But I have seen way more politics than I cared to. So I will say the following:

    This is a classic case of “Trojan Horse Politics.” I have seen it many times. This is how it works:

    1. Someone is not comfortable with whoever is in the position of authority (Rov, president etc.) for whatever reason.

    2. They make snide comments, but otherwise wait.

    3. Eventually, the person in authority will take an unpopular position.

    4. Now the troublemake gets up and attacks that decision, in a VERY PUBLIC MANNER.

    5. When the one in authority tries to defend himself, the troublemaker SUDDENLY REMEMBERS that the guy in charge is illegitimate in the first place.

    And the result, 6:

    The position is suddenly dependent on an issue which has no connection whatsoever.
    For some reason, everyone always falls for this and you get a community all boiled up in a machloikes.
    Judging from all the comments, that’s exactly what’s happening. Someone is making a cholent between the question of if there should be a yechi sign, and if the Rabbi was properly elected. They are two subjects which should to be addressed independently, and whomever is trying to fuse the two vchulu.

    bottom line
    bottom line
    13 years ago

    Bottom line is, there is no mitzvah or mivtzah to have signs. Its childish and cre*tes machlokess
    So, forb whatever reason is it there??
    Why does a “Rov” or “Dayan” not interested in making sholom and satisfy all factions.
    This is the problem I have with the meshichisten, they have no feelings or care of other lubavitcher valid feelings, with their signs, large yellow flags. Its just terrible
    If R telzner was anything close to a leader he would’ve not let it reach this proportion.
    A talmid chochom ahin uhn a talmid chochom aher, seichel darf men hoben…

    Sign of derangement
    Sign of derangement
    13 years ago

    The sign is evidence of how deranged Lubavitchers are.

    But at least in Melbourne there now seems to be a belated effort to get it removed. In Lubavitcher headquarters, 770, and in most Lubavitcher centers, there does not even appear to be any such attempts to remove the Yechi signs.

    One thing for sure – this is not Judaism – just a bunch of sick, immature, nut cases demonstrating their insanity in public. Very sad. Ad Mosai?!

    Kol Hakovad to Mr Werdiger
    Kol Hakovad to Mr Werdiger
    13 years ago

    Kol Hakavod to Mr Werdiger for making a stand.

    Jeff
    Jeff
    13 years ago

    Rabbi Telsner,

    Your the best and a hero. who the hell is David Werdiger tell them to leave Shul

    for good not next door or the Kollel

    Peoples Power
    Peoples Power
    13 years ago

    Elections for a democratic board!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Let them have their fun. They have become a side-show to yiddishkeit anyway.

    Avi.
    Avi.
    13 years ago

    The Rebbe saying things must be done b’oifen hamiskabel. That applies to you David Werdiger just leave Shul and don’t came back

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    So many silly and snide remarks and hardly any relevant to the real problem. Unfortunately, there is no solution and things will continue as they always have regarding the admin, executive, school etc

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Glad to hear Yeshivah is not the only shule infected with a bit of lunacy.

    ex Kollel supporter
    ex Kollel supporter
    13 years ago

    Why does a Kollel that was established by the community, was funded by the community, belonged to the community, suddenly belong to a Rabbi and a Doctor?

    Moshe
    Moshe
    13 years ago

    There is hand full of trouble maker it’s time you throw them out of the Yeshivah. Rabbi Telsner the Yeshivah Rabbi

    Nu?
    Nu?
    13 years ago

    The following two items are from the draft constitution authorised and signed off by Rabbi Groner a’h. (Note, the term used,Lubavitcher Rebbe obm) Our community received the copy of the constitution sometime last year. There is no other written record of any other method of appointing a new rav. Rabbi Telsner was appointed the dayan in extremely controversial circumstances after his brother in law knocked back the offer. He is an avid messhichist, talks to the press and sounds daft when he does. He can learn, but he cannot lead. He would be better suited as the Rosh Hakollel.

    3.1 Rabbi Y.D. Groner Shlita is confirmed as the Shaliach of the Lubavitcher Rebbe o.b.m. in Australia and as the Mora D’Asra and Rav of Kehillas Yeshivah Lubavitch.

    3.2 Any subsequent appointment of a Mora D’Asra and Rav and negotiating the terms of such appointment shall be by the Board in conjunction with the Executive of CHAI, and confirmed by a vote of the members of Kehillas Yeshivah Lubavitch in a Special General Meeting as set out in 9.4 herein.

    reply to simple simon
    reply to simple simon
    13 years ago

    you are just dead jealous!!