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Tel Aviv - Badatz New Ruling Forbids Charedim to Invest in Any Stocks

Published on: May 6, 2010 07:37 PM
By:  Haaretz
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FILE - A trader works in the dealing room of the First International Bank of Israel (FIBI) in Tel Aviv October 7, 2008 According to a new ruling by the Badatz Utra-Orthodox Jews must not invest in the shares of Israeli companies Photo: ReutersFILE - A trader works in the dealing room of the First International Bank of Israel (FIBI) in Tel Aviv October 7, 2008 According to a new ruling by the Badatz Utra-Orthodox Jews must not invest in the shares of Israeli companies Photo: Reuters

Tel Aviv - Will the Haredi (ultra-Orthodox ) community stop making direct investments in the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange? According to a new ruling by the Badatz - a rabbinical court whose rulings are observed by a significant portion of the Haredi community - ultra-Orthodox Jews must not invest in the shares of Israeli companies, even in those owned by Orthodox businessmen such as Lev Leviev, Shaya Boymelgreen and Motti Zisser.

The ruling explained that buying shares makes the investor a partner in the company. But most publicly-traded companies, it said, are involved in some way in violating halakha (Jewish law ) - for instance, by violating the Sabbath or by inappropriate advertising - and a Haredi Jew must not be a partner in such an enterprise.

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“The various investment instruments, especially the pension and provident [funds], are full partners in investments that involve Torah prohibitions: that earn yields from profits [generated] by selling on Shabbat, which the malls run roughshod over; from the products of factories that operate on Shabbat and Yom Kippur; from [television] channels that are full of filth; and from obscene advertising,” explained a booklet put out by the Badatz. “You and I are unwitting partners in all of these.”

The booklet offers Nochi Dankner’s IDB Holdings as an example.

“If you invested in this holding company, which may appear to be a worthy holding company that promises a handsome yield, you have become partners in several hundred of its subsidiaries, which produce its hefty profits. These include the Nesher cement company, which officially operates and manufactures mountains of cement on Shabbat - and even on Yom Kippur, heaven preserve us; the Maman cargo terminal at Ben-Gurion Airport, which operates on Shabbat as if it were a weekday ... Even ‘innocent’ shares such as the Darban land development company owns a mall that operates on Shabbat, and Bank Leumi is a partner in the Fox fashion chain. Even Strauss shares include branches of the Coffee ToGo cafe chain, which operates on Shabbat.”

The Badatz also forbade its adherents to invest in what have been the hottest shares on the bourse over the past two months - the gas and oil exploration companies - because they continue drilling on Shabbat.

The Badatz’s financial investment supervisory committee was set up about two years ago to grant ultra-Orthodox “kashrut” certificates to financial instruments. The committee’s rabbis sat down and tried to find a formula that would permit investments in the shares of companies that operate according to halakha.

But now, the rabbis have reached the radical, sweeping conclusion that there can be no investment whatsoever in shares, because almost every publicly-traded company has halakhic problems.

However, the Badatz does permit investments in exchange-traded funds that track the indexes, or bonds that receive halakhic approval. The Harel, Ayalon and Phoenix insurance groups and the Excellence Nessuah investment house, among others, are already devising such investment instruments.

According to a survey conducted by the ultra-Orthodox department of the McCann-Erickson advertising agency, 42% of Israel’s 50,000 Haredi households deposit an average of NIS 825 a month in savings plans. That means the community’s total investable savings come to some NIS 500 million a year.



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Read Comments (55)  —  Post Yours »

1

 May 06, 2010 at 07:49 PM Paskunyak Says:

Good move. Now try to convince the frum community in the U.S. not to invest in the markets.

Many years ago I was a stock broker. All my clients were forwarned that before any Yom Tov all open orders were going to be cancelled. The client would have to resubmit his order after Yom Tov.

2

 May 06, 2010 at 07:53 PM NS Says:

Just offer the badatz yeshivas a cut of the profits and they will find heterim.......

3

 May 06, 2010 at 07:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately the Badataz Rabbis do not understand how the Market works!
I will not listen to such non sense.

4

 May 06, 2010 at 07:59 PM Lucky Charms Says:

Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market.

Asmachto lo kanya - if you win a few dollars, it's genavah, and if you lose a few dollars, it's an avaida.

5

 May 06, 2010 at 08:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Sheinberg actually holds that a public corporation doesn't have any owners and therefore he says not to make a bracha when dipping an keli that's made by a public corporation even if most of the share holders are not jewish. If the Halacha is really like what the Badatz are saying then even stocks on the American markets should be assur.

6

 May 06, 2010 at 08:07 PM Shlomo Says:

Simple solution only invest and support non Jewish companies all Jewish companies must be boycotted

7

 May 06, 2010 at 08:08 PM Albert Einstein Says:

Ein ben David ba, ad shetichleh perutah min hashuk.

V'hameivin yavin.

8

 May 06, 2010 at 08:26 PM Anonymous Says:

wow we hopefully will see a drop in israeli stocks worse then we saw today in america whoever listens ashrecha and you will not regret it

9

 May 06, 2010 at 08:36 PM Babishka Says:

Someone should develop a portfolio of "kosher" companies that Jews should invest in, the same way (lehavdil) the Catholics have the "Ave Maria Fund" or Muslims have Sharia-compliant portfolios.

10

 May 06, 2010 at 08:43 PM Lodzker Says:

not to mention Ribbus

11

 May 06, 2010 at 09:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Lucky Charms Says:

Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market.

Asmachto lo kanya - if you win a few dollars, it's genavah, and if you lose a few dollars, it's an avaida.

Everything you do in life is a gamble, you start or buy a business, you buy a car, house, precious metals, etc., how are stocks different? if you do your due diligence that is.

12

 May 06, 2010 at 09:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Shlomo Says:

Simple solution only invest and support non Jewish companies all Jewish companies must be boycotted

But how does one determine what is or is not a Jewish company? Is it Jewish if one Jew ones a share? Shareholder lists are not public except for major shareholders and the ownership changes by the hour.

13

 May 06, 2010 at 09:48 PM A E ANDERSON Says:

For more than 200 years, the gedoylim --- far greater gedoylim than these -- have had no problem with the limited liability business corporation, which is expressly not a partnership, as they seem to think. Of course, there are no standards, nor is there judicial review, in the fatwa business.

If they don't like the alleged hilul shabbes, let them wait bicday she-yasu before selling their shares. Utter narishkeit.

14

 May 06, 2010 at 09:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Sheinberg actually holds that a public corporation doesn't have any owners and therefore he says not to make a bracha when dipping an keli that's made by a public corporation even if most of the share holders are not jewish. If the Halacha is really like what the Badatz are saying then even stocks on the American markets should be assur.

Interesting comment.

Just consider this; owning a share in a public corporation grant the owner a potential cash flow reward (dividend or capital gain). However, if that company sold lets say...food. If one took that food from them without permission of the corporate people with control of the assets, they would be subject to arrest. The food they took would not be considered a non cash dividend. Therefore what do shareholders own other than cash flow rights? Isn't this the same an index fund. Probably better because an index fund is closer to gambling. At least a stock investor is building something.

15

 May 06, 2010 at 10:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Forgive me, but this psak is absurd. Gedolim have dealt with this issue in the past and their is a whole history of Shailos and Tshuvos. See Igros Moshe, etc., etc.

16

 May 06, 2010 at 10:03 PM Anonymous Says:

If they forbid Jews from investing in shaya boymelgreen or lev leviev two years, a lot of jews wouldnt have lost a lot of money.

17

 May 06, 2010 at 10:12 PM goonacutty Says:

Owning a share of stock in a company does not make one a "partner" in the company.

18

 May 06, 2010 at 10:14 PM Anonymous Says:

This is a setup! MARK MY WORDS you will soon read about a "BeDaTZ hechsher" on investment funds that only own companies that are kosher. This is a scam for the rabbunim to make money!!

19

 May 06, 2010 at 10:26 PM NONSENSE Says:

They just want to expand their hashgacha business into another field!

This is as phony as a $3 bill!

Oh, and I'm waiting for their holy mossid fundraisers to say "We don't accept any money profited from the market, or from anyone who made money in the market." And whatever hetter they use to take your money, you could use that hetter to make your money!

And to circumvent this nonsense in any case, get a non-jewish partner and let him profit from the "tummah" and you profit from the "tahor." Oh wait, it already is like that, because you only own 1/10,000,000 of the company. So I'm sure you you could find a tahor 1/10,000,000 of the company.

Speak to any bar seichal, and they will tell you to stop looking for more problems, and start looking for solutions. Like.... maybe start with looking for an honest livelihood instead of trying to charge people for unnecessary hashgachas.

20

 May 06, 2010 at 10:32 PM Anonymous Says:

No loss. Most of them are on the dole and take and having nothing to invest anyway.

21

 May 06, 2010 at 11:11 PM Expaptriate Owl Says:

Reply to #4  
Lucky Charms Says:

Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market.

Asmachto lo kanya - if you win a few dollars, it's genavah, and if you lose a few dollars, it's an avaida.

Lucky Charms Says:

“ Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market."

The difference (and it is a BIG difference) between gambling at a casino and investing in the stock market is that at the casino (or in the basement of the yeshiva, wherever the poker game is played), risk is created for its own sake. Such activities have little value as far as the good of society goes.

In the financial markets, the risk already exists; the legitimate financial markets serve as a mechanism for transfering this risk away from from the producers of vital goods and services, so that they can better go about their business of providing goods and services to society. As an inducement to accept this risk, the investor is given the prospects of realizing a profit in exchange for exposing him/herself to the possibility of the losses that formerly imperiled only the producers of goods and services.

22

 May 06, 2010 at 11:19 PM Anonymous Says:

If stocks in general are assur, why would index funds be different? Not to mention the fact that index funds have Jewish traders who buy and sell on yom tov or computer programmers who occasionally have to troubleshoot or make adjustments on yom tov to the computer programs that determine which stocks are bought “automatically.”

Also, stock markets have been around for hundreds of years, why are they suddenly assur now?

23

 May 06, 2010 at 11:30 PM Leib from Kentucky Says:

I think this ruling should include ALL stocks, I already lost thousands of dollars in the market. I have never seen somebody make money there. You can consider it a good parking lot for a very long termn but it needs to be highly diversified, otherwise you'll loose everything, take wamu and aig for examples and many others.

24

 May 06, 2010 at 11:49 PM Enough Already! Says:

I just love how everybody suddenly becomes an expert in halacha overnight without the slightest clue about how choshen mishpat works! How many of you know even one perek in Bava Metzia b'iyun, much less daled chelkei shulchan aruch. Keep your ignorant judgements of Gedolim (past and present) to yourselves. When you become great talmidei chachamim one day then you might be able to first appreciate them and then HUMBLY suggest an alternative.

25

 May 07, 2010 at 12:26 AM yaakov Says:

Maybe they mean you shouldn't invest ina start up company that is Isn't yet Shomer Shabbos. Because you are directly paying and investing in Chillul Shabbos. I don't think the Rabbanim are Asssuring non Jewish owned companies.

26

 May 07, 2010 at 12:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

This is a setup! MARK MY WORDS you will soon read about a "BeDaTZ hechsher" on investment funds that only own companies that are kosher. This is a scam for the rabbunim to make money!!

They have that already

27

 May 07, 2010 at 12:59 AM GEVALT!!!! The new Korach V'aidusoi! Says:

just because your 'gemara-kup' doesn't agree with the pesak (or its ramifications), does NOT give you a heter to bash gedolai yisroel.
just follow YOUR rabbi's advice (who i'm sure will NOT advise you to speak l"h and criticize dissenting views)

28

 May 07, 2010 at 01:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Lucky Charms Says:

Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market.

Asmachto lo kanya - if you win a few dollars, it's genavah, and if you lose a few dollars, it's an avaida.

That is gibberish. Stocks are businesses that produce profits, and create employment,

29

 May 07, 2010 at 01:42 AM amazed Says:

Come on, you can't be serious??? Maybe I'm naive but I read the comments expecting to see all the intelligent people shoot down this ridiculous, coercive 'psak'.
When will it end? Do we want to turn Yiddishkeit into just another extremist religion chas v'chalila? Aren't we more than that?
I'm glad to have seen at least a few voices of reason...

30

 May 07, 2010 at 02:08 AM Anonymous Says:

it seems to me that the so-called "BADATZ" had a few bad investments themselves and now they are trying not to make themselves look bad. tell "BADATZ" to stick to hechsheirim on food....they need a lot of work on that end before they start looking at other problems in their organization.

31

 May 07, 2010 at 02:34 AM shlomo zalman Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

Forgive me, but this psak is absurd. Gedolim have dealt with this issue in the past and their is a whole history of Shailos and Tshuvos. See Igros Moshe, etc., etc.

The Badatz dayanim are very familiar with Reb Moshe's opinion, and they reject it. They are fully entitled to do that of course, and you and I are fully entitled to think that the Badatz is wrong. To each his own.

32

 May 07, 2010 at 03:45 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Lucky Charms Says:

Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market.

Asmachto lo kanya - if you win a few dollars, it's genavah, and if you lose a few dollars, it's an avaida.

stocks is no gambling even if can do gamble like shtick its a share of a company its just as selling a part of real estate

33

 May 07, 2010 at 04:42 AM Israeli Says:

Even if you accept our old friend HaAretz's report at face value, and I don't, the "significant proportion" of chareidm who follow the BeDatz's rulings is (far) less than 1% even in Yerushalayim, never mind the whole of Israel.
Just twos example of many. The BeDatz forbid voting in Israeli elections. How many charedim vote?
The BeDatz forbid mosdos accepting funds from the government. How many mosdos don't (and how many do!)?
Enough said? Basically, who cares what BeDatz say except for a few vested interests?

34

 May 07, 2010 at 05:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Lucky Charms Says:

Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market.

Asmachto lo kanya - if you win a few dollars, it's genavah, and if you lose a few dollars, it's an avaida.

I lived in the Southern US for many years. It's interesting, that our more conservative xtian friends have been saying the same thing for over 25 years. It's gambling and you are tacitly participating in activities that run counter to Torah. Not the least being denying a Jewish worker the right to Shabbat/ holidays off and also ostracizing him and denying him advancement because of his non-participation in "team building" activities which involve anything from treif pizza on Fridays to "retreats" for employees only over the weekend that involve often co-ed "trust" and the aforementioned team building activities.

35

 May 07, 2010 at 06:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
goonacutty Says:

Owning a share of stock in a company does not make one a "partner" in the company.

Uh, yeah, it does. A stockholder has the right to attend meetings, review fiscal documents and vote on business decisions. In return for his input he may or may not get a return. That is the gambling part. Whoever said it's the same as buying a car or house is wrong. Sure my car may be a lemon but I need it and I [should] understand that it will depreciate. I don't buy my house as an investment. I buy it because it pleases me to live there and if it gains value, great but if not, I'm where I want to raise my family and live out my days. I would agree that *other* real estate purchases fall into the risk taking category however the land will always be there unlike the company you buy stock in, which may or may not.

36

 May 07, 2010 at 08:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
NS Says:

Just offer the badatz yeshivas a cut of the profits and they will find heterim.......

There are no bedatz yeshivos.

37

 May 07, 2010 at 08:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Lucky Charms Says:

Buying stocks is gambling. It is exactly like playing at a casino. Any charadei that wouldn't play poker, shouldn't play the market.

Asmachto lo kanya - if you win a few dollars, it's genavah, and if you lose a few dollars, it's an avaida.

you don't know how stocks work so don't write somthing you don't know

38

 May 07, 2010 at 08:18 AM Anonymous Says:

wow! now you can tell them all to stop keeping their money in banks because about 1 out of every five dollars deposited stays and the rest gets invested so all their money is being "mechalel shabbos" too!!!!!!!!!

39

 May 07, 2010 at 08:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Albert Einstein Says:

Ein ben David ba, ad shetichleh perutah min hashuk.

V'hameivin yavin.

That means money will not be used, only credit cards or other electronic means of id like fingerprint, retinal scan, etc.. That time is coming soon.

40

 May 07, 2010 at 08:56 AM Chaim S. Says:

Reply to #1  
Paskunyak Says:

Good move. Now try to convince the frum community in the U.S. not to invest in the markets.

Many years ago I was a stock broker. All my clients were forwarned that before any Yom Tov all open orders were going to be cancelled. The client would have to resubmit his order after Yom Tov.

There's a huge difference between leaving a good-til-canceled order over yomtov and investing in stocks. First of all, you do not have to cancel any open orders before yomtov. I suggest re-learning the halachos of amira l'akum and how that impacts on making an order. I am often amazed on how a respected posek can make a psak without knowing how the question really works. The Badatz, and I say this with humility since I don't come close to any of them in Torah, does not understand the concept of stock ownership in a public company. I say this with knowledge of decades of experience in investment banking. Owning stock is not a concept of partnership in that company. You have absolutely no real say in the management or operations of that company. In order for you to have any type of issur of ownership, you have to have real constructive ownership, according to all aspects of halacho. That includes chometz in pesach. You can own 100,000 shares of General Mills yet you don't have halachic ownership of a single cracker. What you have is the right to share in the profits. You can't walk in and say give me a case of cookies or that desk belongs to me.

41

 May 07, 2010 at 08:58 AM dovid Says:

even if u dont understand the psak, it doesnt give anyone the right to bash the gedolei hador

42

 May 07, 2010 at 09:02 AM Yossi Ginzberg Says:

"...opinion, and they reject it. They are fully entitled to do that of course, and you and I are fully entitled to think that the Badatz is wrong. To each his own."

I disagree with that "entitled" opinion, because there are ramifications to making loud public statements. This Badatz "ruling" will be cited all over the world as proof of how out-of-touch the "radical religious right" is, and will be used to lower world opinion of Orthodox Jews as well as to increase the number of people who equate Orthodox/ Charedi with Jewish Talibans.

As Perek says, "Chachamim hizaharu b'divreichem"!!

43

 May 07, 2010 at 09:02 AM Chaim S. Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Sheinberg actually holds that a public corporation doesn't have any owners and therefore he says not to make a bracha when dipping an keli that's made by a public corporation even if most of the share holders are not jewish. If the Halacha is really like what the Badatz are saying then even stocks on the American markets should be assur.

Rav Sheinberg is an American and understands the concepts of public stock ownership. Every rov understands that in order to properly give a hechsher on complex chemical processes you have to understand chemistry. The OU and the OK and Star-K all have trained and educated people who understand the manufacturing processes. Giving a psak on stocks without understanding the concept of public stock ownership, both from a legal ownership and regulatory concepts, goes against the whole idea of how to paskin halochos. Chazal tells us clearly, if you don't know all the dinim of gittin and kedushin, stay away from it. The olam of Torah and yiddishkeit is slowly being turned off from rabbonim who make facetious psak halochos.

44

 May 07, 2010 at 09:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Leib from Kentucky Says:

I think this ruling should include ALL stocks, I already lost thousands of dollars in the market. I have never seen somebody make money there. You can consider it a good parking lot for a very long termn but it needs to be highly diversified, otherwise you'll loose everything, take wamu and aig for examples and many others.

Stocks should be assur because you are a lousy investor? I think chulent should be assur because I'm a lousy cook.

45

 May 07, 2010 at 10:09 AM poshuter yid Says:

Perhaps Aviev should pay a few dollars to meah shearim to silence the natural forces of resistance

46

 May 07, 2010 at 11:05 AM Anonymous Says:

May a Yeshiva accept a donation from money made in the market if there was chilul Shabbos involved in making the profit?

47

 May 07, 2010 at 11:11 AM WolfishMusings Says:

There is something very confusing about the report.

The report says that the BaDaTZ forbade the trading in Israeli companies. Note that (according to the report above -- I did not see the actual ruling) they did NOT forbid the trading of foreign (i.e. American) stocks.

On the other hand, the reasons that they gave (chillul shabbos, inappropriate advertising) even apply to foreign stocks.

That being said, why the distinction between Israeli companies and non-Israeli companies?

The Wolf

48

 May 07, 2010 at 01:56 PM Anonymous Says:

A week ago fish were forbidden. Before that is was shabbos elevators. Now it's stocks. Next week it will be some other new issur. This is not what torah observance is about. The more that these taliban make forbidden the more they harm yiddishkeit. As for the nudniks and lamebrains who claim the mantle of daas torah to every word uttered by these organizations and rabbis, they should contact the police to see if anyone can find their lost brains and common sense. Thankfully, most normal Jews go about their lives and ignore these wacky kol korehs and takanos.

49

 May 07, 2010 at 02:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately the Badataz Rabbis do not understand how the Market works!
I will not listen to such non sense.

They know pritty well how the market works. But do you know how Halacha works?

50

 May 07, 2010 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

May a Yeshiva accept a donation from money made in the market if there was chilul Shabbos involved in making the profit?

Not according to the Benai Yisoschor

51

 May 07, 2010 at 03:29 PM WolfishMusings Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

They know pritty well how the market works. But do you know how Halacha works?

But how do you know that they understand how the market works? I doubt the members of the BaDaTZ are experts in finance and capital markets.

The Wolf

52

 May 07, 2010 at 04:12 PM HaNavon Says:

Reply to #27  
GEVALT!!!! The new Korach V'aidusoi! Says:

just because your 'gemara-kup' doesn't agree with the pesak (or its ramifications), does NOT give you a heter to bash gedolai yisroel.
just follow YOUR rabbi's advice (who i'm sure will NOT advise you to speak l"h and criticize dissenting views)

What you have to understand is that the new Korach V'Aidusoi are not the dissenters, but the authority figures in todays times.
There were three stages of destruction to our religion, the first from the outside in, the second from the inside out, and the third from our own leaders who are trying to create a new Torah of hatred and make us forget the true Torah of love.
The second destruction of our religion was from people moving away from religion, but this destruction is even worse because you can never know who is real and who is not since this destruction is meant to make everyone look more religious when in fact this is as much a pirtza from the Torah as Reform!
The Torah itself says not to go to the left or to the right, don't become a reformer and get rid of religion, and don't become a neo-charedi and make everything assur

53

 May 07, 2010 at 05:39 PM anonymous Says:

I wonder if these gedolim, tehorim and anshe yiras shomayim will refuse profit from Berkshire or Oerlikon

54

 May 07, 2010 at 06:52 PM Truth_teller Says:

Here we go again...another Jewish Fatwah! The Haredi and the Imams have so much in common!

55

 May 07, 2010 at 07:38 PM Jeremy Grantham Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

Interesting comment.

Just consider this; owning a share in a public corporation grant the owner a potential cash flow reward (dividend or capital gain). However, if that company sold lets say...food. If one took that food from them without permission of the corporate people with control of the assets, they would be subject to arrest. The food they took would not be considered a non cash dividend. Therefore what do shareholders own other than cash flow rights? Isn't this the same an index fund. Probably better because an index fund is closer to gambling. At least a stock investor is building something.

Right with you, except that I believe an index fund spreads risk at a lower cost to capital. These Rabonim lack the most rudimentary understanding of business ownership. Purchase of common stock only allows one to benefit from dividends. If a business is liquidated the common shareholder does not receive any capital or assets that . Is that considered ownership? My other pet peeve is when will mankind realize that speculation is not investing?

56

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