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Atlanta, GA - Conservative Rabbi Wins Fight Against Kosher Law

Published on: May 22, 2010 09:54 PM
By:  ACLU.org
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FILE - Rabbi Shalom Lewis of Congregation Etz Chaim in Marietta, Ga., filed a lawsuit on Aug. 7, 2009 challenging his state's kosher law on the grounds that it discriminates against non-Orthodox Judaism. (Courtesy Congregation Etz Chaim)FILE - Rabbi Shalom Lewis of Congregation Etz Chaim in Marietta, Ga., filed a lawsuit on Aug. 7, 2009 challenging his state's kosher law on the grounds that it discriminates against non-Orthodox Judaism. (Courtesy Congregation Etz Chaim)

Atlanta, GA - Governor Sonny Purdue signed into law a bill repealing the unconstitutional Kosher Food Labeling Act and replacing it with a new law mandating that consumers be fully informed about the standards under which any kosher food product is certified as being kosher. The bill, signed Thursday, was prompted by an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit and was passed by the Georgia legislature last month.

The previous Kosher Food Labeling Act required that any food sold as kosher in the state meet “Orthodox Hebrew religious rules and requirements,” delegitimizing alternative interpretations of kosher adhered to in other Jewish communities. The new law no longer institutionalizes an official definition of kosher and instead requires that all food and food establishments represented as being kosher clearly disclose to consumers the practices and standards by which the food was prepared.

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“The state should never be in the position of deciding which religious beliefs are ‘legitimate’ and which are not,” said Debbie Seagraves, Executive Director of the ACLU of Georgia. “The state legislature did the right thing by making clear that the power to define what is religiously acceptable should never rest with the government. These are personal religious decisions.”

The ACLU, ACLU of Georgia and cooperating attorneys from King & Spalding filed a lawsuit last year on behalf of Rabbi Shalom Lewis of Congregation Etz Chaim in Cobb County challenging the constitutionality of the Kosher Food Labeling Act.

“The Georgia legislature is to be commended for creating a law that affirms our nation’s bedrock American principle of respecting everyone’s religious beliefs,” said Rabbi Lewis who, as a Conservative Jew, had been unable to lawfully fulfill his rabbinical duties to supervise food establishments because his theological interpretation of the kosher laws differ from that of Orthodox Judaism. “It has been very gratifying working with the Orthodox community to achieve this result, which provides protection to consumers by enabling them to make informed choices about the food they buy and fosters enhanced respect and mutuality within the community.”

One of the most vital services that Lewis provides to his congregants is serving as their mashgiach, the Hebrew term for a person who supervises any type of food service establishment – including restaurants, grocery stores and caterers – to ensure that food is acceptably kosher. But because Lewis cannot certify the preparation of food in accordance with Orthodox Hebrew requirements, he has been prohibited by law from serving as the mashgiach of any kosher food operation – a fact that jeopardized his ability to fulfill his calling as a duly ordained rabbi of the Jewish faith and impeded his religious freedom. If Lewis had violated the state’s previous kosher laws by supervising food establishments using a different interpretation of kosher than the law had required, the laws could have been enforced against him, damaging his reputation and subjecting him and others to criminal charges and fines.

The ACLU’s lawsuit charged that the Kosher Food Labeling Act violated the religious liberty guarantees of both the U.S. and Georgia Constitutions by endorsing only “Orthodox Hebrew religious rules and requirements” and criminalizing the practices of the many people across the state who, while seeking kosher products, subscribe to interpretations of kosher that differ from those of Orthodox Jews.

“Previous law in Georgia violated the fundamental pillars of religious liberty by endorsing one particular set of beliefs and impeding the free religious exercise of those who believe differently,” said Daniel Mach, Director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief. “The government should never take sides in theological debates.”

The ACLU of Georgia and the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief were joined by the Atlanta law firm King & Spalding LLP as co-counsel for Rabbi Lewis.



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1

 May 22, 2010 at 10:07 PM Anonymous Says:

This is the right outcome for both orthodox and conservative jews. We shouldn't have the government providing the oversight of kosher establishments. Its a slipperly slope when the government decides whose hashgacha is sufficient to meet the test of "orthodox hebrew rules". The next thing you know, they amend the law to say that only chassideshe hashgacha meets the standard and litvashe mashgichim aren't really machmir enough. After that, only food prepared under Nikeslburg hashgacha could be sold in Georgia. Where will it end? It should be enough to disclose whose hashgacha is used and let the customers decide.

2

 May 22, 2010 at 10:14 PM Dag Says:

This won't be popular, but this is the right thing for the Gov't to do. That Kosher Law WAS Unconsitutional.

3

 May 22, 2010 at 10:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Can someone kindly explain what conservative Jews call Kosher?

4

 May 22, 2010 at 10:24 PM Anonymous Says:

i think this is fair as long as they disclose the exact (sub) standards of kashrus...

5

 May 22, 2010 at 10:26 PM Anonymous Says:

What does conservative kosher mean? What rules do they obey and which ones don't they.

6

 May 22, 2010 at 10:27 PM Rabbi Says:

Kol Ha'Doresh, le'Atzmo Doresh.

7

 May 22, 2010 at 10:28 PM Avigdor Loeb Says:

No, biggy. So it'll be just like in a number of other states, so the consumer will have the info he needs, and in more detail, than previously. People who are serious about their kashrus should be happy.

8

 May 22, 2010 at 10:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Kosher is a halachically defined criteria not a state one. Therefore, if there is to be a kosher standard it should be defined by halacha.

9

 May 22, 2010 at 10:37 PM Anonymous Says:

This proports to be an Orthodox website.

Shalom Lewis may be a clergyman -- a rabbi, even, perhaps -- but he's not Rabbi.

10

 May 22, 2010 at 10:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Kosher is a halachically defined criteria not a state one. Therefore, if there is to be a kosher standard it should be defined by halacha.

Whose halacha would you use? The conservative and MO use different standards for kashruth than the gold standard chassidic mashgichim?

11

 May 22, 2010 at 10:41 PM Dave Says:

This is effectively the same rule as in New York, and for the same reasons.

12

 May 22, 2010 at 10:42 PM Anonymous Says:

So "Rabbi" Lewis not only got himself a ton of free publicity, but made his agenda known to the Orthodox community so we know to avoid these places he supervises. Are there really a lot of them, anyhow?

13

 May 22, 2010 at 10:44 PM Rabbi Pinchos Woolstone Says:

The fact that this gentleman supervises food production will not impede Kashrus.
Ever Yid who is commited to Torah MiSinai will see the product/services with his name attached and will not eat thereof.
He can say and do whatever he wants that will never effect his lack of neemonus, he dwells outside the camp of Bnei Yisroel when and if he usurps the Toras Yisroel.

14

 May 22, 2010 at 10:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone kindly explain what conservative Jews call Kosher?

if u can explain what chassideshe shechita and yeshiveshe schita is then i will tell u what concervative kosher means

15

 May 22, 2010 at 10:53 PM Anonymous Says:

It'd be interesting to know if the law was written and consequently always understood to use the term 'orthodox' as "ordinary or usual" as opposed to referring to Orthodox Judaism.

Either way, this rabbi seems to have a lot of time on his hands. Did he really fear prosecution or was he just bored?

17

 May 22, 2010 at 11:11 PM Yehuda Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Kosher is a halachically defined criteria not a state one. Therefore, if there is to be a kosher standard it should be defined by halacha.

Fine. However the State has no business establishing a halachic standard as a matter of State law. Within the bounds of consumer protection, the State can require disclosure of the name of the Rabbi who certifies that a product or establishment is kosher. This gives the consumer the information needed to decide whether or not to patronize the establishment or use the product.

18

 May 22, 2010 at 11:14 PM Babishka Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone kindly explain what conservative Jews call Kosher?

Catfish, swordfish.

19

 May 22, 2010 at 11:24 PM fine, but.... Says:

what is their code of Jewish law? Do they have one?

20

 May 22, 2010 at 11:22 PM Been there Says:

There are certain products which some Conservative 'rabbis' deem kosher--for example, swordfish--which are clearly not considered kosher by any orthodox rabbi.

This is all about power and money. The Conservative 'rabbi' wanted to make money as a 'mashgiach.'

21

 May 22, 2010 at 11:30 PM Microsoft 2D Barcode Says:

Hashgacha's should start using Microsoft's interactive 2D bar codes instead of old fashioned symbols. If you snap a picture of it with your PDA phone, it connects to more information online. You probably saw them already and didn't realize, for instance I just saw it on a bottle of Zyrtec, In addition to giving you more information on the Hashgacha, they could give you kashrus updates in real time, instead of waiting for an ad in the Yated or the Jewish Press.

22

 May 22, 2010 at 11:31 PM Truth Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Kosher is a halachically defined criteria not a state one. Therefore, if there is to be a kosher standard it should be defined by halacha.

Wake up -this is the way the law is written in NJ & NY where they have tons more frum yidden than Georgia. There is law and there is halacha. Don't mish the two.

23

 May 22, 2010 at 11:34 PM Anonymous Says:

This law is probably for the best. How would the state choose which standard to use? Glatt, non-Glatt, or Beis Yakov Glatt? Cholov Yisroel or Cholov Stam? And many other issues like this. It's best to just require them to say which standards they are using and then the consumers can choose for themselves whether or not to eat there.

25

 May 22, 2010 at 11:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Does this law require that an establishment state specifically whether the mashgiach is orthodox, conservative or whatever? That would be great! If so, then the establishment should also be required to state whether the meat is Sephardi shchita or Ashkenazi shchita because of the differences in halacha. Maybe it should also state glat versus not glat...

26

 May 22, 2010 at 11:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone kindly explain what conservative Jews call Kosher?

Most Conservative rabbis I know follow standards similar to Triangle K.

27

 May 22, 2010 at 11:44 PM Nebach Says:

Reply to #13  
Rabbi Pinchos Woolstone Says:

The fact that this gentleman supervises food production will not impede Kashrus.
Ever Yid who is commited to Torah MiSinai will see the product/services with his name attached and will not eat thereof.
He can say and do whatever he wants that will never effect his lack of neemonus, he dwells outside the camp of Bnei Yisroel when and if he usurps the Toras Yisroel.

Amen to that! Thats what I was thinking! This whole issue is a control issue as to that the main "orthodox" Kosher symbols has the power to overturn any other kosher symbol that may want to open up in Georgia. This has nothing to do with the aspect of halacha- for as if that was so, it wouldn't matter either way to a frum yid. How could a rabbi bring about such a lawsuit without causing a chillul Hashem.
Goes to show you how this orthodox rabbi who is in charge- is all in it for the control.
Its a disease.

28

 May 22, 2010 at 11:44 PM Anonymous Says:

B"H
I think its better for the conservative rabbi to supervise then no one... I would not personally eat anything that he supervised but for his congregation or other non orthodox better than nothing
everyone needs to stop being so negative
I am very frum (chasid with full beard) and would encourage the guy instead of discouraging him.
he may one day become totally frum if we treat him with respect etc

33

 May 22, 2010 at 11:51 PM Oh yeh? Says:

Reply to #13  
Rabbi Pinchos Woolstone Says:

The fact that this gentleman supervises food production will not impede Kashrus.
Ever Yid who is commited to Torah MiSinai will see the product/services with his name attached and will not eat thereof.
He can say and do whatever he wants that will never effect his lack of neemonus, he dwells outside the camp of Bnei Yisroel when and if he usurps the Toras Yisroel.

This issue is in regards to the Orthodox Kasherus Organization here in Georgia.
The rabbi in charge doesn't want to lose control over who can post their hechsher where. Why should this orthodox rabbi care if this conservative rabbi wants to deem this restauarant kosher? Does it affect him in any way??? Yes! It means that if this particular restuarant wants to consider itself kosher - then it has to go to the AKC (the local kosher symbol in Atlanta) which means more money and more power for this orthodox rabbi. I believe it has nothing to do with kasherus, because as mentioned already- if a frum torah believing jew walks in, and notices something fishy, he will inquire and find out its not a kosher symbol to his liking, and leave.
This is about power and money for the local AKC kosher organization- nothing to do with whether or not this conservative rabbi wants to make some money.
Just the opposite!

35

 May 22, 2010 at 11:56 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

This is the right outcome for both orthodox and conservative jews. We shouldn't have the government providing the oversight of kosher establishments. Its a slipperly slope when the government decides whose hashgacha is sufficient to meet the test of "orthodox hebrew rules". The next thing you know, they amend the law to say that only chassideshe hashgacha meets the standard and litvashe mashgichim aren't really machmir enough. After that, only food prepared under Nikeslburg hashgacha could be sold in Georgia. Where will it end? It should be enough to disclose whose hashgacha is used and let the customers decide.

The demise of the original Kosher Law may not be a tragedy. What's important is the wording in the replacement law that requires disclosure in the way a particular food was prepared. But historically, there is a reason why the Kosher certification Laws in most states were drafted according to Orthodox standards. Because in the past, Conservative and Reform congregations were not interested in any Kashrus standards at all. The only people who were interested in protecting Kosher consumers were Orthodox. Besides, original Judaism is Orthodox.

36

 May 23, 2010 at 12:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Whose halacha would you use? The conservative and MO use different standards for kashruth than the gold standard chassidic mashgichim?

You're going to get a ton of mail for putting Conservatives and MO in the same camp.

37

 May 23, 2010 at 12:04 AM Nebach Says:

Besides, Seriously speaking since when does the State know who is Orthodox or not? Maybe Conservative is more kosher than Orthodox! How can the State define something that is or isn't kosher?

38

 May 23, 2010 at 12:06 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #20  
Been there Says:

There are certain products which some Conservative 'rabbis' deem kosher--for example, swordfish--which are clearly not considered kosher by any orthodox rabbi.

This is all about power and money. The Conservative 'rabbi' wanted to make money as a 'mashgiach.'

This is not true; Italian Jews who are Orthodox have been eating swordfish for generations.

39

 May 23, 2010 at 12:06 AM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

Most Conservative rabbis I know follow standards similar to Triangle K.

Triangle K is orthodox.

40

 May 23, 2010 at 12:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Where was the ortodox union and the Agudah?

41

 May 23, 2010 at 12:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

This proports to be an Orthodox website.

Shalom Lewis may be a clergyman -- a rabbi, even, perhaps -- but he's not Rabbi.

How about showing some derech eretz for a change. You may not like his derech but don't challenge his semicha.

42

 May 23, 2010 at 12:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

What does conservative kosher mean? What rules do they obey and which ones don't they.

What does Glatt Kosher Gefilte fish mean?

43

 May 23, 2010 at 12:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

B"H
I think its better for the conservative rabbi to supervise then no one... I would not personally eat anything that he supervised but for his congregation or other non orthodox better than nothing
everyone needs to stop being so negative
I am very frum (chasid with full beard) and would encourage the guy instead of discouraging him.
he may one day become totally frum if we treat him with respect etc

We don't define "frum" by the fact you call yourself a chassid with a full beard. Most yeshiveshe families would not rely on a "chassid with full beard" to provide the proper hashgacha. A conservative rav's hashgacha may be even more machmir than Nikeslburg hashgacha

44

 May 23, 2010 at 12:30 AM Anonymous Says:

My understanding is that conservatives consider all processed food as kosher as long as the product had the words "Made In" next to the country of origin.

They originally wanted the OK symbol to say that all food ok to eat but that was taken and not all products.

45

 May 23, 2010 at 12:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Anyone who keeps Kosher should Not Eat/Buy food unless he knows the Rav Hamachshir and what his standards are we don't need the State for this

46

 May 23, 2010 at 12:49 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #2  
Dag Says:

This won't be popular, but this is the right thing for the Gov't to do. That Kosher Law WAS Unconsitutional.

No, it wasn't. The Lemmon test is nowhere to be found in the constitution. It was made up by a few judges a few decades ago, and will eventually be overturned by some more judges. There is nothing in the constitution to prevent a state from recognising that there is an objective definition of Jewish law, and that the "conservative" movement is a fraud.

47

 May 23, 2010 at 12:54 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #7  
Avigdor Loeb Says:

No, biggy. So it'll be just like in a number of other states, so the consumer will have the info he needs, and in more detail, than previously. People who are serious about their kashrus should be happy.

The law never existed to protect the knowledgeable consumer. It existed to protect the consumer who wants to eat kosher because he knows that's what a Jew (or whatever kind of Xian he is) is meant to do, but he doesn't know exactly what it means, and which hechsherim to trust, etc. The law meant that if someone knowingly labeled treif as kosher, they could be prosecuted for fraud. Now anyone can sell chazzer and call it kosher, so long as he posts a note that he subscribes to the definition of "kosher" found in "The pig-lover's guide to kashrut". The undiscerning consumer is now unprotected.

48

 May 23, 2010 at 12:55 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #11  
Dave Says:

This is effectively the same rule as in New York, and for the same reasons.

And it's a crying shame. We should not be applauding the ACLU and "conservative" activists for getting us to this situation.

49

 May 23, 2010 at 12:59 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Whose halacha would you use? The conservative and MO use different standards for kashruth than the gold standard chassidic mashgichim?

Standard halacha. There is no difference between MO and "gold standard chassidic" whatever that means. There are machmirim and mekilim, mehadrin and those who stick to ikkar hadin, but everyone agrees that there is a lowest common denominator, a basic letter-of-the-law kashrus, which even those who choose not to eat it will recognise as kosher. "Conservatives" are outside that halachic consensus, because they are kofrim be'ikar.

50

 May 23, 2010 at 01:02 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

if u can explain what chassideshe shechita and yeshiveshe schita is then i will tell u what concervative kosher means

Chasidishe shchita is easy to explain: it means primarily that the Alter Rebbe's chalaf is used. That's easy, because today everyone has adopted that chalaf; that machlokes is over. In addition, chassidishe shchita means that the shochet is a yerei shomayim, has a beard, goes to mikveh regularly, has regular shiurim in torah and chassidus, and is known in the community as an erlicher yid. If there's such a thing as "yeshivisher shchita" it would be the same minus the learning chassidus, and maybe the mikveh.

51

 May 23, 2010 at 01:04 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #22  
Truth Says:

Wake up -this is the way the law is written in NJ & NY where they have tons more frum yidden than Georgia. There is law and there is halacha. Don't mish the two.

You dishonestly omit to mention that it's only this way in NY and NJ recently, because the same anti-Torah activists who went to court in GA already did so in NY and NJ. Because of this law, innocent Jews are being conned into eating treif, and their souls are being permanently damaged.

52

 May 23, 2010 at 01:06 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

B"H
I think its better for the conservative rabbi to supervise then no one... I would not personally eat anything that he supervised but for his congregation or other non orthodox better than nothing
everyone needs to stop being so negative
I am very frum (chasid with full beard) and would encourage the guy instead of discouraging him.
he may one day become totally frum if we treat him with respect etc

No, it is NOT better than nothing. It is much worse than nothing, because people innocently assume that if it says "kosher" it must be so.

53

 May 23, 2010 at 01:07 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #33  
Oh yeh? Says:

This issue is in regards to the Orthodox Kasherus Organization here in Georgia.
The rabbi in charge doesn't want to lose control over who can post their hechsher where. Why should this orthodox rabbi care if this conservative rabbi wants to deem this restauarant kosher? Does it affect him in any way??? Yes! It means that if this particular restuarant wants to consider itself kosher - then it has to go to the AKC (the local kosher symbol in Atlanta) which means more money and more power for this orthodox rabbi. I believe it has nothing to do with kasherus, because as mentioned already- if a frum torah believing jew walks in, and notices something fishy, he will inquire and find out its not a kosher symbol to his liking, and leave.
This is about power and money for the local AKC kosher organization- nothing to do with whether or not this conservative rabbi wants to make some money.
Just the opposite!

It's about protecting unsophisticated consumers from fraud and unsophisticated Jews from eating treif. I'm sorry that you don't seem to care about that.

54

 May 23, 2010 at 01:10 AM HaNavon Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone kindly explain what conservative Jews call Kosher?

Conservative Jews actually believe that you have to keep kosher. All mainstream conservative synagogues in the world have a kosher kitchen that is mamash kosher. There are certain hechsherim that many frum Jews won't eat because of stringencies, but that are perfectly kosher and are fine to be eaten by anyone who respects the shulchan aruch! Hebrew National is one, for example. It is under the hashgacha of Rav Ralbag (the son, not the father), who learned in Ponovich and then Lakewood, who's a very big talmid chacham and a fine Jew. I asked him to tell me step by step how everything in Hebrew National works, the shchita, bedika, melicha. packaging etc. After he told me, I asked him why he doesn't call it glatt? He said because we allow 'koleif', which is a macholkes, but the aruch hashulchan and rav moshe are matir and we poskin it's mutar. Most frum Jews won't eat it even though they're maskim that it's mutar, maybe out of respect, maybe out of fear...
As the case may be, conservative Jews will eat Hebrew National, most orthodox Jews will not. There are many other examples, like gelatin, which most rabbunim in europe allowed, but which R moshe and R' soloveichik didn't

55

 May 23, 2010 at 01:14 AM Anonymous Says:

The court has no more business defining what constitutes orthodox standards that it does defining kosher. This law is no more constitutional than the first.

56

 May 23, 2010 at 01:19 AM Tourist Says:

Reply to #13  
Rabbi Pinchos Woolstone Says:

The fact that this gentleman supervises food production will not impede Kashrus.
Ever Yid who is commited to Torah MiSinai will see the product/services with his name attached and will not eat thereof.
He can say and do whatever he wants that will never effect his lack of neemonus, he dwells outside the camp of Bnei Yisroel when and if he usurps the Toras Yisroel.

The problem is some people will just see Kosher, and not knowing who this Lewis guy is will assume that Kosher is Kosher, unfortunately. When you are traveling you don't always have the luxury to do the proper research.

57

 May 23, 2010 at 01:29 AM Rabbi Farfolte Friedman Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

You're going to get a ton of mail for putting Conservatives and MO in the same camp.

There is a [huge] difference between Conservative and Modern Orthodox. Most of their standards are the same but the MO believe that the Torah is the word of Hashem and the Conservative say that the Torah was "divinely Inspired" and written by different men at different times.

58

 May 23, 2010 at 01:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Rabbi Pinchos Woolstone Says:

The fact that this gentleman supervises food production will not impede Kashrus.
Ever Yid who is commited to Torah MiSinai will see the product/services with his name attached and will not eat thereof.
He can say and do whatever he wants that will never effect his lack of neemonus, he dwells outside the camp of Bnei Yisroel when and if he usurps the Toras Yisroel.

sadly to say it can very easily impede on kashrus of orthodox Yidden. If he were to design a kosher symbol and write kosher-pareve under the symbol, who would know it is not a good hechsher. and until people are notified he could cause lots of people to eat treif.

59

 May 23, 2010 at 02:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
HaNavon Says:

Conservative Jews actually believe that you have to keep kosher. All mainstream conservative synagogues in the world have a kosher kitchen that is mamash kosher. There are certain hechsherim that many frum Jews won't eat because of stringencies, but that are perfectly kosher and are fine to be eaten by anyone who respects the shulchan aruch! Hebrew National is one, for example. It is under the hashgacha of Rav Ralbag (the son, not the father), who learned in Ponovich and then Lakewood, who's a very big talmid chacham and a fine Jew. I asked him to tell me step by step how everything in Hebrew National works, the shchita, bedika, melicha. packaging etc. After he told me, I asked him why he doesn't call it glatt? He said because we allow 'koleif', which is a macholkes, but the aruch hashulchan and rav moshe are matir and we poskin it's mutar. Most frum Jews won't eat it even though they're maskim that it's mutar, maybe out of respect, maybe out of fear...
As the case may be, conservative Jews will eat Hebrew National, most orthodox Jews will not. There are many other examples, like gelatin, which most rabbunim in europe allowed, but which R moshe and R' soloveichik didn't

what about non kosher wine? I believe that conservative rabbis don't recognize the issur of stam yaynom. In general conservative does not recognize shulchan aruch as the posek achron, so whatever they say is not based on shulchan aruch. conservative believe that halacha is in a constant state of flux and needs to change with the times. this is very different to "hatora zu lo tehiye muchlefes".

60

 May 23, 2010 at 02:05 AM goodilan Says:

Whatever the conservative movement’s official statement is on kashrus, how they act in practice is appalling. When I was a student at the American Jewish University, what I saw of the standards shocked me, and I was not even frum at the time. Rabbinical students would openly eat McDonald's in the cafeteria. Their homes had no separation of meat and milk and just as much assur kinds of meat as any gentiles. When I asked about it, the late Dr. David Leiber, former Dean of the University and a major figure in the old school conservative movement, told me rather sadly that for most of the current generations of Rabbis kashrus wasn’t even something they thought about. Although within the frum world we might have different standards, what the average conservative Jew has, and I include how I was back then, is nowhere near even basic kashrus.

61

 May 23, 2010 at 02:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

We don't define "frum" by the fact you call yourself a chassid with a full beard. Most yeshiveshe families would not rely on a "chassid with full beard" to provide the proper hashgacha. A conservative rav's hashgacha may be even more machmir than Nikeslburg hashgacha

only problem with your line of thinking is that a conservative is at best "toivel vsheretz byodoi". In other words they don't begin to believe in the absolute validity of halacha and absolute truth of the Torah, so whatever they say is not worth more than their yesoid. and their yesoid is poison, so anything that comes from such a yesoid is also poison. you are missing some very basic hashkofa if you can say that the supervision of a conservative can be better than that of a frum yid. This is serious stuff, people are missing the point completely, Hashem yerachem!

62

 May 23, 2010 at 02:18 AM Alan Says:

How ironic: The state's duty is to prevent mislabeling, a type of fraud. It is not the duty of the state to act as super nanny for Jews (or non Jews) as many in these posts seem to think. Many frum Jews vote for and support right-wing candidates, but hop on the left's bus of having government support their (admittedly correct) agenda. Please Yiddin take responsibility for reading food labels, following up with ALL products claiming Kosher supervision. Once my Rabbi called a colleague in Brooklyn (where the time was 2 AM) to verify kashrus, The awakened Rabbi was happy to comply

63

 May 23, 2010 at 02:39 AM Anonymous Says:

@#21 - Cool idea, but not practical. Not everyone carries internet enabled devices with them at all times. Perhaps the stores could have an internet enabled scanner in every aisle with a display. I've seen this before in regards to prices of items. Scan your item to see the price. Now, show the hechser too.

Still a cool idea, still not practical.

64

 May 23, 2010 at 02:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
HaNavon Says:

Conservative Jews actually believe that you have to keep kosher. All mainstream conservative synagogues in the world have a kosher kitchen that is mamash kosher. There are certain hechsherim that many frum Jews won't eat because of stringencies, but that are perfectly kosher and are fine to be eaten by anyone who respects the shulchan aruch! Hebrew National is one, for example. It is under the hashgacha of Rav Ralbag (the son, not the father), who learned in Ponovich and then Lakewood, who's a very big talmid chacham and a fine Jew. I asked him to tell me step by step how everything in Hebrew National works, the shchita, bedika, melicha. packaging etc. After he told me, I asked him why he doesn't call it glatt? He said because we allow 'koleif', which is a macholkes, but the aruch hashulchan and rav moshe are matir and we poskin it's mutar. Most frum Jews won't eat it even though they're maskim that it's mutar, maybe out of respect, maybe out of fear...
As the case may be, conservative Jews will eat Hebrew National, most orthodox Jews will not. There are many other examples, like gelatin, which most rabbunim in europe allowed, but which R moshe and R' soloveichik didn't

conservative can NEVER be kosher since the rabbi is mechalel shabbos ( the least of it , talks on a microphone) and so is eveyone else and therefore everything they cook is treif and yayin nesech and they have NO neemonos as mashgichim. Conservative and Reform Judaism has destroyed yiddishkeit.

65

 May 23, 2010 at 03:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

What does Glatt Kosher Gefilte fish mean?

it means that the fish was raised in a ge- filtered water environment and thus no chashsh of worms

66

 May 23, 2010 at 05:51 AM Anonymous Says:

everyone has the right to make their own kosher product according to their own standards, but that is important to mention "conservative, modern orthodox, orthodox, chasidish" affiliation with the name of Rabbi, so people can choose without problem
but so many hechsherim, people will get lost !!!

67

 May 23, 2010 at 07:01 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #37  
Nebach Says:

Besides, Seriously speaking since when does the State know who is Orthodox or not? Maybe Conservative is more kosher than Orthodox! How can the State define something that is or isn't kosher?

If there is a question what orthodox kosher standards are, it's very easy to determine. Just call a few expert witnesses, just as courts do on every other question of fact.

68

 May 23, 2010 at 07:02 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

How about showing some derech eretz for a change. You may not like his derech but don't challenge his semicha.

What "semicha"? He's a Conservative clergyman, i.e. a kofer be'ikar and a minister of a false religion. He deserved no derech eretz, and he certainly doesn't have smicha.

69

 May 23, 2010 at 07:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #50  
Milhouse Says:

Chasidishe shchita is easy to explain: it means primarily that the Alter Rebbe's chalaf is used. That's easy, because today everyone has adopted that chalaf; that machlokes is over. In addition, chassidishe shchita means that the shochet is a yerei shomayim, has a beard, goes to mikveh regularly, has regular shiurim in torah and chassidus, and is known in the community as an erlicher yid. If there's such a thing as "yeshivisher shchita" it would be the same minus the learning chassidus, and maybe the mikveh.

>it would be the same minus the learning chassidus, and maybe the mikveh.”

...and the beard. But the point is moot. I don't think "Litvishe shechitah" exists, at least not in the United States. The Litvakers have determined hanging around with behaimah gasos in order to make a living and not depend on your shver is "bitul Torah".

70

 May 23, 2010 at 07:12 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

What does Glatt Kosher Gefilte fish mean?

It doesn't mean anything; what has it got to do with this topic?

71

 May 23, 2010 at 07:13 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

We don't define "frum" by the fact you call yourself a chassid with a full beard. Most yeshiveshe families would not rely on a "chassid with full beard" to provide the proper hashgacha. A conservative rav's hashgacha may be even more machmir than Nikeslburg hashgacha

A "conservative rav"?! Why not just talk of a "Catholic rav" or a "Hindu rav"?

72

 May 23, 2010 at 07:18 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Anyone who keeps Kosher should Not Eat/Buy food unless he knows the Rav Hamachshir and what his standards are we don't need the State for this

*WE* don't need the state for this, any more than we need to be protected from many kinds of blatant fraud which an educated consumer can detect. The poshuter yid who doesn't know what is a good hechsher and what is a bad one does need to be protected from fraud. The law struck down was a truth in labeling law; all it required was that if you sell something as kosher it had to BE kosher. Now you can sell anything as kosher, and put up a sign at the back of the store (not right next to the product) defining what you mean when you use that word.

Imagine if someone did that with terms like "dairy-free". At the back of the store he'll put up a sign explaining that when he uses the term, it means that he doesn't charge extra for the dairy. It costs the same as it would without. Do you think for a minute that that would fly?

73

 May 23, 2010 at 07:20 AM Meir Says:

Conservative Smicha: Vsamach et yado al rosh hapar, candidates must deny Torah mi' Sinai, be willing to eat treif and be mechallel shabbos, must not keep taharat hamispacha and be egalitarian, being gay gets extra points, being a gay woman even more and being a gay black woman gets you automatic papers
Conservative kosher, killed humanely, grown humanely, processed in a clean factory by workers who are paid well, treated well and the last factor is that it tastes good
no need to go by the Shulchan Aruch, no need for a real mashgiach, PETA inspectors will do

74

 May 23, 2010 at 07:23 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #54  
HaNavon Says:

Conservative Jews actually believe that you have to keep kosher. All mainstream conservative synagogues in the world have a kosher kitchen that is mamash kosher. There are certain hechsherim that many frum Jews won't eat because of stringencies, but that are perfectly kosher and are fine to be eaten by anyone who respects the shulchan aruch! Hebrew National is one, for example. It is under the hashgacha of Rav Ralbag (the son, not the father), who learned in Ponovich and then Lakewood, who's a very big talmid chacham and a fine Jew. I asked him to tell me step by step how everything in Hebrew National works, the shchita, bedika, melicha. packaging etc. After he told me, I asked him why he doesn't call it glatt? He said because we allow 'koleif', which is a macholkes, but the aruch hashulchan and rav moshe are matir and we poskin it's mutar. Most frum Jews won't eat it even though they're maskim that it's mutar, maybe out of respect, maybe out of fear...
As the case may be, conservative Jews will eat Hebrew National, most orthodox Jews will not. There are many other examples, like gelatin, which most rabbunim in europe allowed, but which R moshe and R' soloveichik didn't

For starters, Conservative "rabbis" permit bishul akum, stam yeinom, gevinas akum, and mixing fish and meat. That is not "mamash kosher".

And if Triangle-K allows peeling sirchos, which it does, then how can it call the meat "glatt"? The very definition of glatt is that there were NO sirchos. What you suggested is outright fraud! If we are to believe this story, what we get from it is that you suggested R Ralbag commit a serious fraud on the public, and he was honest enough to turn you down. So should everybody see through you and turn you down.

75

 May 23, 2010 at 07:25 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

The court has no more business defining what constitutes orthodox standards that it does defining kosher. This law is no more constitutional than the first.

What are you talking about? This law doesn't set any standard at all, so it passes the stupid Lemmon test. It was the original law that required orthodox Jewish standards, which was quite proper, as the Lemmon test hadn't been invented (and I use that word advisedly) when the law was made.

76

 May 23, 2010 at 07:58 AM Longwave Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

How about showing some derech eretz for a change. You may not like his derech but don't challenge his semicha.

What semicha? IF it was from JTS or any conservative place, then it is less valuable than a prize in a box of cracker jacks.
Conservatives wrote away the laws of kashrus. At the first 'chag hasemicha' for JTS, they served frog legs as an appetizer.

77

 May 23, 2010 at 08:00 AM Longwave Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

What does Glatt Kosher Gefilte fish mean?

Glatt Kosher gefilte fish has nothing to do with kashrus. It has to do with marketing.

78

 May 23, 2010 at 08:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

B"H
I think its better for the conservative rabbi to supervise then no one... I would not personally eat anything that he supervised but for his congregation or other non orthodox better than nothing
everyone needs to stop being so negative
I am very frum (chasid with full beard) and would encourage the guy instead of discouraging him.
he may one day become totally frum if we treat him with respect etc

Maybe Yoshko would become frum also. This is dream world type of talk.

79

 May 23, 2010 at 08:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Why shouldn't the headline say "conservative priest"? Or maybe "conservative clown"? He is not a Rabbi (probably even not a real jew).

80

 May 23, 2010 at 08:34 AM yehud Says:

everybody knows that just sefardik hashgacha and kashrut meets Torah requirements since our great principle : safek safeka lo lehakel !

81

 May 23, 2010 at 08:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Oh yeh? Says:

This issue is in regards to the Orthodox Kasherus Organization here in Georgia.
The rabbi in charge doesn't want to lose control over who can post their hechsher where. Why should this orthodox rabbi care if this conservative rabbi wants to deem this restauarant kosher? Does it affect him in any way??? Yes! It means that if this particular restuarant wants to consider itself kosher - then it has to go to the AKC (the local kosher symbol in Atlanta) which means more money and more power for this orthodox rabbi. I believe it has nothing to do with kasherus, because as mentioned already- if a frum torah believing jew walks in, and notices something fishy, he will inquire and find out its not a kosher symbol to his liking, and leave.
This is about power and money for the local AKC kosher organization- nothing to do with whether or not this conservative rabbi wants to make some money.
Just the opposite!

Reb yid, maybe you have abone to pick with the rav hamachshir or rav of the town but as an Atlanta resident you are totally ignorant and sound child like.
Why do you think that Lewis wanted it turned over, because of his gushing ehrlichkeit?! NO! read the article dummy. He says that he couldn't give a hashgacha anymore and now he can be machshil so many. GREAT!
Do teshuva now because you said lashon hara and accused people on the front line out of your foolishness.
P.S. Go braves.

82

 May 23, 2010 at 09:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

How about showing some derech eretz for a change. You may not like his derech but don't challenge his semicha.

Where do you get conservative semicha?

83

 May 23, 2010 at 09:24 AM Anonymous Says:

The fact is that many mainstream, even chassidish hashgochot allow peeling of minor sirchot and still market the meat as "glatt". I've been there, I've watched the peeling. It aint Bait Yosef glatt, but they still call it glatt.

84

 May 23, 2010 at 09:29 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #76  
Longwave Says:

What semicha? IF it was from JTS or any conservative place, then it is less valuable than a prize in a box of cracker jacks.
Conservatives wrote away the laws of kashrus. At the first 'chag hasemicha' for JTS, they served frog legs as an appetizer.

That was HUC, not JTS. JTS was founded as an Orthodox school, and didn’t become Conservative until Schechter shr"y took over.

Oh, and the frogs' legs weren't an appetizer, they were about the fourth or fifth course; by the time the Conservatives saw them and walked out, they'd already stuffed themselves with most of a meal that was just as treif but not as obvious about it, and they'd already suffered the resulting timtum halev vehamoach.

85

 May 23, 2010 at 09:30 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

Maybe Yoshko would become frum also. This is dream world type of talk.

Yoshke was frum.

86

 May 23, 2010 at 10:02 AM Anonymous Says:

Re: # 10 and # 26

MO are genuine Orthodox Jews and your placing them in a lesser category is highly objectionable.

The same for casting aspirsions on the Triange K.

Being machmir is supposedly an aspect of Chassidus - taking on chumras to effect improvement in mitzah observance - including middos.

The writers of the postings numbered 10 and 26 apparently require more chumras in hilchos lashon harah.

87

 May 23, 2010 at 10:18 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #83  
Anonymous Says:

The fact is that many mainstream, even chassidish hashgochot allow peeling of minor sirchot and still market the meat as "glatt". I've been there, I've watched the peeling. It aint Bait Yosef glatt, but they still call it glatt.

Ririn are not sirchos. The Ashkenazi minhag is to allow one or two ririn, IF they are easily removed by rubbing, not peeling, and still call it glatt; three ririn and it's not glatt no matter how easily they come off.

88

 May 23, 2010 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Whose halacha would you use? The conservative and MO use different standards for kashruth than the gold standard chassidic mashgichim?

The notion that there is a chasidishe standard for kashrus is a bubba meisa invented in Williamsburg. It mwans nothing and everyone knows it.

89

 May 23, 2010 at 10:41 AM Tanya Says:

Next thing, the Gov't wiil arrest all those that say the BP Erev is Kosher, since, Reb Moshe Feinstein holds that carrying in Brooklyn, is Osur Min Hatorah.

The Gov't will also fine, all those that say, you don't need to filter your water.

How about the stores that sell salmon with all those worms, they should be arrested.

What is the Govt Shittah regarding the Kashrus of a Mikveh?

90

 May 23, 2010 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:

F.Y.I - surprised that no one mentioned that one of the senior partners of King & Spaulding is frum Yid, graduate of YU & Harvard law.

91

 May 23, 2010 at 11:36 AM Israeli Says:

All this reminds me of Belz/Eida Chareidis in the 1970's. The Eida paskened then, and has never retracted, that Belzer shechita is dinom k'neveilos utreifos.
Milhouse - you get my point, don't you?
P.S. I eat both!

92

 May 23, 2010 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Why shouldn't the headline say "conservative priest"? Or maybe "conservative clown"? He is not a Rabbi (probably even not a real jew).

93

 May 23, 2010 at 12:05 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #91  
Israeli Says:

All this reminds me of Belz/Eida Chareidis in the 1970's. The Eida paskened then, and has never retracted, that Belzer shechita is dinom k'neveilos utreifos.
Milhouse - you get my point, don't you?
P.S. I eat both!

No, I don't get your point. Nobody would be charged with selling Belzer meat just because the Eida forbade it. But if such a charge would be brought, the court would have to call expert testimony on whether the charges against the Belzer shchita could be sustained, and if necessary appoint a special master; this is no different than similar determinations courts make all the time, on non-religious matters. It's only the Lemmon test that prevents courts from doing so when it comes to religion, and that is a made-up rule that has no basis in the constitution. But it would never come to that, since the first witness the defense would call would be a representative of the Eidah who assered it, and they would come to court and explain that they didn't mean it literally, and "dinom ke-" means "they should be treated AS IF". At worst the court would determine that it can't decide, and therefore find for the defense.

The bottom line is that none of this precludes a law that simply states the truth: that kosher means according to Orthodox Jewish law, however difficult it may be to determine what that is in some specific case.

94

 May 23, 2010 at 12:10 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #38  
Charlie Hall Says:

This is not true; Italian Jews who are Orthodox have been eating swordfish for generations.

Still? If you're talking historically, it's not just Italians: ALL Mediterranean Jewish communiites, i.e. all places where swordfish was available, had a tradition of eating it. But in the last 50 years or so it has become accepted to forbid it, and I'm not aware of any community that continues to eat it.

The reason for the heter was a traditional belief that swordfish do have scales, which they shed before capture. Rabbi Dr Tendler challenged this belief on the basis of discoveries he claimed marine biologists had made. The odd thing is that as far as I know nobody has ever seen a juvenile swordfish to actually check whether there are scales. They don't grow in captivity, and are apparently never caught, or at least never brought to shore, so nobody really knows what they look like.

95

 May 23, 2010 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #86  
Anonymous Says:

Re: # 10 and # 26

MO are genuine Orthodox Jews and your placing them in a lesser category is highly objectionable.

The same for casting aspirsions on the Triange K.

Being machmir is supposedly an aspect of Chassidus - taking on chumras to effect improvement in mitzah observance - including middos.

The writers of the postings numbered 10 and 26 apparently require more chumras in hilchos lashon harah.

I didn't say that Triangle K was a Conservative hechsher. I meant that most Conservative rabbis who I know use similar standards to it. A lot people here are saying that Conservative is treif, which just isn't true.

96

 May 23, 2010 at 12:34 PM go get educated please Says:

Reply to #92  
Anonymous Says:

Why shouldn't the headline say "conservative priest"? Or maybe "conservative clown"? He is not a Rabbi (probably even not a real jew).

A priest or priestess is a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively.

Priests and priestesses have been known since the earliest of times and in the simplest societies. They exist in all or some branches of JUDAISM, Christianity, Shintoism, Hinduism, and many other religions, as well, and are generally regarded as having good contact with the deity or deities of the religion to which they subscribe, often interpreting the meaning of events, performing the rituals of the religion, and to whom other believers often will turn for advice on spiritual matters.

In many religions, being a priest or priestess is a full-time job, ruling out any other career. In other cases it is a part-time role

97

 May 23, 2010 at 12:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
Tanya Says:

Next thing, the Gov't wiil arrest all those that say the BP Erev is Kosher, since, Reb Moshe Feinstein holds that carrying in Brooklyn, is Osur Min Hatorah.

The Gov't will also fine, all those that say, you don't need to filter your water.

How about the stores that sell salmon with all those worms, they should be arrested.

What is the Govt Shittah regarding the Kashrus of a Mikveh?

maybe you should be arrested for not using your common sense. now that would be a great accomplishment for all of us

98

 May 23, 2010 at 12:36 PM Pot, meet kettle Says:

Reply to #92  
Anonymous Says:

Why shouldn't the headline say "conservative priest"? Or maybe "conservative clown"? He is not a Rabbi (probably even not a real jew).

You're not a Jew. Just another troll. Go back under that rock.

99

 May 23, 2010 at 12:37 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

How about showing some derech eretz for a change. You may not like his derech but don't challenge his semicha.

The problem is not his S'micha. (Authorization to arbitrate in mattewrs of Halacha.) It is the standards of the Conservative movement that are sub-par for Orthodox Judaism.

100

 May 23, 2010 at 12:44 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

My understanding is that conservatives consider all processed food as kosher as long as the product had the words "Made In" next to the country of origin.

They originally wanted the OK symbol to say that all food ok to eat but that was taken and not all products.

I personally know someone who once said that since he landed at Kennedy Airport he never eats anything that does not have the symbol of the OR Hashgacha!

101

 May 23, 2010 at 01:37 PM Anonymous Says:

This law poses a bigger problem for goyim that rely on kosher certification for allergy or vegetarian/vegan reasons, ultimately effecting the bottom line of kosher certified products and establishments which will no longer be trusted

102

 May 23, 2010 at 01:46 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #95  
Anonymous Says:

I didn't say that Triangle K was a Conservative hechsher. I meant that most Conservative rabbis who I know use similar standards to it. A lot people here are saying that Conservative is treif, which just isn't true.

It is true. Conservative rabbis allow bishul akum, gevinas akum, stam yeinam, fish and meat, and many other things that are 100% treif.

103

 May 23, 2010 at 01:51 PM Ralbag Says:

maybe Hebrew Nation will finally get the recognitionit deserves

104

 May 23, 2010 at 02:00 PM Paskunyak Says:

This article was written and widely published over 20 years ago. It is still true today:
The REFORMulation of Judaism


This is the Jewish year 5770. We received the Torah at Mount Sinai approximately 3300 years ago. The Torah is our “Bible”, the “Word of G-D”, and our “Law”. Traditional Judaism continues until
now but not without its detractors and reformers.

In the late 1800’s a group of assimilated Jews in Germany decided to do to Judaism what Coca-Cola
did (to their formula) a few years ago, they REFORMulated Judaism. They threw out the old and brought in the new!

The changes were so drastic that many of the followers of the new religion didn’t recognize any of
the practices as the Judaism they knew. A group of reformers separated to become the “Conservative” members of reform “Judaism” and eventually broke away to form their own “Conservative” movement of Judaism which is closer to Traditional Judaism but falls short on observance as they are not quite sure if the Torah is given by G-D or written by man.

The REFORMulated Jews or “Reform” as they call themselves decided that one need not believe in G-D to be a Jew. They decided that the manner to become a rabbi was to take some history courses
in a University and become involved in social issues. Traditionally to become a Rabbi a man must believe in G-d, know that the Torah is the word of G-d and abide by & perform the precepts in the Torah. He must have expert knowledge in a multitude of subjects relating to Jewish law, customs
& history and must be deemed to have a high moral character. A proficiency examination is then administered by a Torah observant Rabbi or a Torah observant Institution in order to obtain his S’micha (ordination).

They decided that you can be considered Jewish if your father is Jewish even if your mother is not. Traditionally, the method of determining if someone is Jewish is either he or she was born of a Jewish MOTHER or he or she had a "KOSHER" conversion according to the requirements of the universal Halachah (traditional Jewish law) administered by a Torah observant Rabbinical Court.

And the REFORMulation continues.

Torah Observant/Orthodox Jews don’t usually associate (in religious matters) with the breakaway groups or any other deviant forms of practices calling themselves “streams”, “branches” or “movements” of Judaism. Those groups then whine that we are separating ourselves from them (!)
or that we are somehow to blame for their problems.

There are some “Modern Orthodox” Rabbi’s who will associate with the other groups and some may even sit on their boards for matters relating to community or civic affairs but nobody recognizes or approves of their religious practices and views.

We have nothing in common with their so called Rabbis. They do not represent us. Their idea of Jewish practice is different than ours. Their laws and practices can arbitrarily change and are regularly changed at their annual convention. Our Traditional laws cannot and are not changed but are applicable to everyday life throughout the generations.

The reformulated Coke was a short-lived failure but Coke Classic is still around. “It’s the Real Thing!”

105

 May 23, 2010 at 02:02 PM BG to very frum chosid with the beard Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

B"H
I think its better for the conservative rabbi to supervise then no one... I would not personally eat anything that he supervised but for his congregation or other non orthodox better than nothing
everyone needs to stop being so negative
I am very frum (chasid with full beard) and would encourage the guy instead of discouraging him.
he may one day become totally frum if we treat him with respect etc

I thought you'd say I am very frum becouse I keep all the Shulchan Oruch

106

 May 23, 2010 at 03:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone kindly explain what conservative Jews call Kosher?

They don't believe/accept halachos like Bishul Akum, Yayin Nesach, Cholev Yisroel (in any way) Glatt standards, etc.

107

 May 23, 2010 at 04:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
Longwave Says:

What semicha? IF it was from JTS or any conservative place, then it is less valuable than a prize in a box of cracker jacks.
Conservatives wrote away the laws of kashrus. At the first 'chag hasemicha' for JTS, they served frog legs as an appetizer.

Longwave- get your factsright. It was the reform seminary, hebrew union college in Cincinatti that served a trey banquet. Those who formed the JTS did it in part because of the treyfah banquet and other facts like them. If yoou can not tell a reform and a conservative Jew apart you do not know enough to talk about them.

108

 May 23, 2010 at 04:49 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #107  
Anonymous Says:

Longwave- get your factsright. It was the reform seminary, hebrew union college in Cincinatti that served a trey banquet. Those who formed the JTS did it in part because of the treyfah banquet and other facts like them. If yoou can not tell a reform and a conservative Jew apart you do not know enough to talk about them.

The differences between them are less important than the similarities. They both have less in common with yiddishkeit than does Xianity. Neither one believes that the Torah is literally the word of Hashem, and I'm talking about torah shebichsav, let alone torah sheb'al peh.

109

 May 23, 2010 at 06:08 PM What legally defines "kosher"? Says:

Can a goy decide what he considers "kosher" and give such legal "hashgocha"?

And if for some odd reason (since it would be discriminatory to insist that) it must be someone from the Jewish people (which itself raises the question - what legally defines someone as "Jewish" - does it include Jews for J? One with only a Jewish father? One who "feels" Jewish? Or members of Islam who consider themselves "true" Jews?), can an atheist (Jewish, of course) decide his standard of "kosher"?

If anyone can legally call anything "kosher", then yes, why not a Conservative or Reform heretic? I guess kosher can legally apply to bacon and shrimp since it has no enforceable meaning.

Indeed, why should "kosher" even require the designation by a "clergy" - after all, even a bonafide mashgiach need not be a "musmach" or an official member of the clergy? Let the company itself certify that the product is "kosher" in their opinion!

This is simply bad law and it was improperly argued in court. Unfortunately it sets a bad precedent until it is (hopefully) it is properly appealed.

Some of you are too blinded by the smokescreen from the left liberal position of the state "deciding" religious standards

110

 May 23, 2010 at 07:17 PM Well Says:

Reply to #108  
Milhouse Says:

The differences between them are less important than the similarities. They both have less in common with yiddishkeit than does Xianity. Neither one believes that the Torah is literally the word of Hashem, and I'm talking about torah shebichsav, let alone torah sheb'al peh.

If the Orthodox movement wants to claim Milhouse as one of their own, please point me to the Conservative headquarters. I know plenty of Conservative Jews who are as kosher as any of us, and they're...how shall I say....mentally stable.

111

 May 23, 2010 at 07:38 PM Check your facts Says:

Reply to #102  
Milhouse Says:

It is true. Conservative rabbis allow bishul akum, gevinas akum, stam yeinam, fish and meat, and many other things that are 100% treif.

They are not 100% treif, there is no scale that applies treif on a percentage metric. But if one existed bishul akum, gevinas akum, stam yeinam, fish and meat, would not be since all of those exist on different scales anyway. Bishul, is Assur D'Rabanan not D'Araisa, the fish and meat issue and gevinas akum are Minhag not "Halacha."
I hold of those minhagim and obviously keep them, but at least I know where they came from. Bishul and Pas Akum, were instituted in a time, when marriage was generally a business deal, created as a method of families pooling their assets, "Breaking Bread" was a common method of solidifying this "deal" hence the pas and bishul akum. Like many things in the Torah, we keep them even if they don't have a modern purpose; for instance Yom Tov Sheiny Shel Golius, which with the advent of modern mathematics and calendars shouldn't apply, but we keep it as if it is absolutely Yom Tov. That is the definition of Orthodox. But I am not judging those who don't conform to our standards and neither should you.

It is dangerous to let people like you out in public.

112

 May 23, 2010 at 08:09 PM Lucky Charms Says:

Reply to #94  
Milhouse Says:

Still? If you're talking historically, it's not just Italians: ALL Mediterranean Jewish communiites, i.e. all places where swordfish was available, had a tradition of eating it. But in the last 50 years or so it has become accepted to forbid it, and I'm not aware of any community that continues to eat it.

The reason for the heter was a traditional belief that swordfish do have scales, which they shed before capture. Rabbi Dr Tendler challenged this belief on the basis of discoveries he claimed marine biologists had made. The odd thing is that as far as I know nobody has ever seen a juvenile swordfish to actually check whether there are scales. They don't grow in captivity, and are apparently never caught, or at least never brought to shore, so nobody really knows what they look like.

In Fishery leaflet #531, U.S. Dept. of Interior, Fish & Wildlife Service, Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, Wash.D.C., it states "swordfish during early juvenile stage of life (up to 8 inches long), have "scales" that are markedly specialized and rather unique. They are in the form of bony tubercules or expanded compressed platelike bodies. These scales are rough, having spinous projections at the surface and they do not overlap one another as the scales in most fish do. With growth the scales disappear and the adult fish including those sold commercially have no scales.

These juvenile "scales" are attached in such a manner that they are not readily removable without destroying the underlying skin, they are not considered "kaskeses".

See Sh’ailos and Teshuvos Tzitz Eliezer 9:40 who discusses a statement made by the Knesses HaGedolah about “cherev hadag” and explains why we cannot use the statement to permit swordfish.

113

 May 23, 2010 at 08:27 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #109  
What legally defines "kosher"? Says:

Can a goy decide what he considers "kosher" and give such legal "hashgocha"?

And if for some odd reason (since it would be discriminatory to insist that) it must be someone from the Jewish people (which itself raises the question - what legally defines someone as "Jewish" - does it include Jews for J? One with only a Jewish father? One who "feels" Jewish? Or members of Islam who consider themselves "true" Jews?), can an atheist (Jewish, of course) decide his standard of "kosher"?

If anyone can legally call anything "kosher", then yes, why not a Conservative or Reform heretic? I guess kosher can legally apply to bacon and shrimp since it has no enforceable meaning.

Indeed, why should "kosher" even require the designation by a "clergy" - after all, even a bonafide mashgiach need not be a "musmach" or an official member of the clergy? Let the company itself certify that the product is "kosher" in their opinion!

This is simply bad law and it was improperly argued in court. Unfortunately it sets a bad precedent until it is (hopefully) it is properly appealed.

Some of you are too blinded by the smokescreen from the left liberal position of the state "deciding" religious standards

This is the same law as in New York.

So yes, anyone can create a Hechsher. They register it with the state, and it lists the organization behind it. Any business claiming to be Kosher must list the overseeing organization. Would you prefer as an alternative that the government gets to determine what can and cannot be called Kosher?

Incidentally, how is this law going to be "appealed"?

114

 May 23, 2010 at 08:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #83  
Anonymous Says:

The fact is that many mainstream, even chassidish hashgochot allow peeling of minor sirchot and still market the meat as "glatt". I've been there, I've watched the peeling. It aint Bait Yosef glatt, but they still call it glatt.

The meal mart criteria for Bet Yoseph is up to 3 sircht, less than 3 cm long. They turned Kashrus into a farce, again.

115

 May 23, 2010 at 08:38 PM Farblonjet Friedman Says:

Reply to #110  
Well Says:

If the Orthodox movement wants to claim Milhouse as one of their own, please point me to the Conservative headquarters. I know plenty of Conservative Jews who are as kosher as any of us, and they're...how shall I say....mentally stable.

There may be many Conservative Jews and possibly as many Reform Jews who eat kosher and even observe kosher laws but their leaders who refer to themselves as "Rabbis" don't beleive that the Torah is the "word of G-d". They beleive that men wrote the Torah and that some Rabbis over the years changed it.

116

 May 23, 2010 at 09:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Consider the alternative though. In France there's only Conservative meat slaughterhouse allowed, no Orthodox. It's better that the government doesn't get involved in matters like this.

117

 May 23, 2010 at 10:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #104  
Paskunyak Says:

This article was written and widely published over 20 years ago. It is still true today:
The REFORMulation of Judaism


This is the Jewish year 5770. We received the Torah at Mount Sinai approximately 3300 years ago. The Torah is our “Bible”, the “Word of G-D”, and our “Law”. Traditional Judaism continues until
now but not without its detractors and reformers.

In the late 1800’s a group of assimilated Jews in Germany decided to do to Judaism what Coca-Cola
did (to their formula) a few years ago, they REFORMulated Judaism. They threw out the old and brought in the new!

The changes were so drastic that many of the followers of the new religion didn’t recognize any of
the practices as the Judaism they knew. A group of reformers separated to become the “Conservative” members of reform “Judaism” and eventually broke away to form their own “Conservative” movement of Judaism which is closer to Traditional Judaism but falls short on observance as they are not quite sure if the Torah is given by G-D or written by man.

The REFORMulated Jews or “Reform” as they call themselves decided that one need not believe in G-D to be a Jew. They decided that the manner to become a rabbi was to take some history courses
in a University and become involved in social issues. Traditionally to become a Rabbi a man must believe in G-d, know that the Torah is the word of G-d and abide by & perform the precepts in the Torah. He must have expert knowledge in a multitude of subjects relating to Jewish law, customs
& history and must be deemed to have a high moral character. A proficiency examination is then administered by a Torah observant Rabbi or a Torah observant Institution in order to obtain his S’micha (ordination).

They decided that you can be considered Jewish if your father is Jewish even if your mother is not. Traditionally, the method of determining if someone is Jewish is either he or she was born of a Jewish MOTHER or he or she had a "KOSHER" conversion according to the requirements of the universal Halachah (traditional Jewish law) administered by a Torah observant Rabbinical Court.

And the REFORMulation continues.

Torah Observant/Orthodox Jews don’t usually associate (in religious matters) with the breakaway groups or any other deviant forms of practices calling themselves “streams”, “branches” or “movements” of Judaism. Those groups then whine that we are separating ourselves from them (!)
or that we are somehow to blame for their problems.

There are some “Modern Orthodox” Rabbi’s who will associate with the other groups and some may even sit on their boards for matters relating to community or civic affairs but nobody recognizes or approves of their religious practices and views.

We have nothing in common with their so called Rabbis. They do not represent us. Their idea of Jewish practice is different than ours. Their laws and practices can arbitrarily change and are regularly changed at their annual convention. Our Traditional laws cannot and are not changed but are applicable to everyday life throughout the generations.

The reformulated Coke was a short-lived failure but Coke Classic is still around. “It’s the Real Thing!”

Most of what you say is just completely baseless and untrue.

118

 May 23, 2010 at 10:21 PM HaNavon Says:

Reply to #112  
Lucky Charms Says:

In Fishery leaflet #531, U.S. Dept. of Interior, Fish & Wildlife Service, Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, Wash.D.C., it states "swordfish during early juvenile stage of life (up to 8 inches long), have "scales" that are markedly specialized and rather unique. They are in the form of bony tubercules or expanded compressed platelike bodies. These scales are rough, having spinous projections at the surface and they do not overlap one another as the scales in most fish do. With growth the scales disappear and the adult fish including those sold commercially have no scales.

These juvenile "scales" are attached in such a manner that they are not readily removable without destroying the underlying skin, they are not considered "kaskeses".

See Sh’ailos and Teshuvos Tzitz Eliezer 9:40 who discusses a statement made by the Knesses HaGedolah about “cherev hadag” and explains why we cannot use the statement to permit swordfish.

There are four types of scales. cecloid, cenoid, which are kosher, placoid, which is not kosher and ganoid, which is a machlokes. The sturgeon has ganoid scales, the swordfish's scales fall off then they're young and I don't know what type of scale they are.
This is a very old machlokes, and there is definitely room to say that both the sturgeon and the swordfish are kosher. I can personally testify that I took a scale off of a sturgeon without having to treat it with lye first. My russian friend has one in his freezer, just to show people who say that sturgeon is not kosher, and the scale came right off, so that particular species of sturgeon is kosher according to anyone who looks at it. Most species of sturgeon have thick ganoid scales that cannot be removed unless they're soaked in lye for a few hours. There is a tshuvas nodeh b'yehida that it is mutar, there's a tshuvas tzemach tzedek that it is not.
As for swordfish, there were tshuvas from gedolei olam that held that it was kosher, since it has scales in its youth and loses them. I believe that it is not a non kosher fish, but nevertheless we don't eat it.

119

 May 23, 2010 at 10:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #115  
Farblonjet Friedman Says:

There may be many Conservative Jews and possibly as many Reform Jews who eat kosher and even observe kosher laws but their leaders who refer to themselves as "Rabbis" don't beleive that the Torah is the "word of G-d". They beleive that men wrote the Torah and that some Rabbis over the years changed it.

We also believe that things were changed over time! the gemara says we're not bakkiim in cheseiros v'yiseiros. the gemara says that ezra made a two out of three gorel on the chumashim when he came to the heichal. there are many rishonim who held that things have been changed over the years by our leaders.
rashi says "tikkun sofrim hu ze asher hafchuhu rabboseinu z'l", so we know that some things have been changed. not mitzvos though, the tzafnas peneach says that nevi'im could change things in the aggadic portions of the chumash, but not the mitzvos.

120

 May 23, 2010 at 10:54 PM Lucky Charms Says:

Reply to #111  
Check your facts Says:

They are not 100% treif, there is no scale that applies treif on a percentage metric. But if one existed bishul akum, gevinas akum, stam yeinam, fish and meat, would not be since all of those exist on different scales anyway. Bishul, is Assur D'Rabanan not D'Araisa, the fish and meat issue and gevinas akum are Minhag not "Halacha."
I hold of those minhagim and obviously keep them, but at least I know where they came from. Bishul and Pas Akum, were instituted in a time, when marriage was generally a business deal, created as a method of families pooling their assets, "Breaking Bread" was a common method of solidifying this "deal" hence the pas and bishul akum. Like many things in the Torah, we keep them even if they don't have a modern purpose; for instance Yom Tov Sheiny Shel Golius, which with the advent of modern mathematics and calendars shouldn't apply, but we keep it as if it is absolutely Yom Tov. That is the definition of Orthodox. But I am not judging those who don't conform to our standards and neither should you.

It is dangerous to let people like you out in public.

"...I am not judging those who don't conform to our standards and neither should you.
It is dangerous to let people like you out in public.”

Millhouse does not need an attorney to defend him but I must comment:

You say thay you are not judging, but alas you are! That chip on your shoulder is the size of a tree. Still, it is no justification to become abusive.

121

 May 23, 2010 at 11:02 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #110  
Well Says:

If the Orthodox movement wants to claim Milhouse as one of their own, please point me to the Conservative headquarters. I know plenty of Conservative Jews who are as kosher as any of us, and they're...how shall I say....mentally stable.

Milhouse happens to be a very intelligent and knowledgeable person. I don't agree with his conclusions and opinions 100% of the time. But that doesn't make him as you characterized him to be.

122

 May 24, 2010 at 12:00 AM Different strokes Says:

Reply to #121  
bigwheeel Says:

Milhouse happens to be a very intelligent and knowledgeable person. I don't agree with his conclusions and opinions 100% of the time. But that doesn't make him as you characterized him to be.

So one man's idea of very intelligent and knowledgeable appears to be several peoples' idea of unstable, rude and dangerously embarrassing.

123

 May 24, 2010 at 12:04 AM Paskunyak Says:

Reply to #117  
Anonymous Says:

Most of what you say is just completely baseless and untrue.

What would you add or delete, change or correct and why? In over 20 years not one person or group was able to contradict anything in that article and backup their claims with factual information.

124

 May 24, 2010 at 12:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #121  
bigwheeel Says:

Milhouse happens to be a very intelligent and knowledgeable person. I don't agree with his conclusions and opinions 100% of the time. But that doesn't make him as you characterized him to be.

Yes, it does!

125

 May 24, 2010 at 02:54 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #111  
Check your facts Says:

They are not 100% treif, there is no scale that applies treif on a percentage metric. But if one existed bishul akum, gevinas akum, stam yeinam, fish and meat, would not be since all of those exist on different scales anyway. Bishul, is Assur D'Rabanan not D'Araisa, the fish and meat issue and gevinas akum are Minhag not "Halacha."
I hold of those minhagim and obviously keep them, but at least I know where they came from. Bishul and Pas Akum, were instituted in a time, when marriage was generally a business deal, created as a method of families pooling their assets, "Breaking Bread" was a common method of solidifying this "deal" hence the pas and bishul akum. Like many things in the Torah, we keep them even if they don't have a modern purpose; for instance Yom Tov Sheiny Shel Golius, which with the advent of modern mathematics and calendars shouldn't apply, but we keep it as if it is absolutely Yom Tov. That is the definition of Orthodox. But I am not judging those who don't conform to our standards and neither should you.

It is dangerous to let people like you out in public.

Treif is treif. Bishul akum is just as treif as chicken parmesan. So is gevinas akum, which is NOT a minhag. And for your information, every derabbonon is ultimately a de'oraisa, because it's included in "lo sosur". The only reason "sofek derabonon lekula" is because the rabbonon said so.

126

 May 24, 2010 at 02:56 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #116  
Anonymous Says:

Consider the alternative though. In France there's only Conservative meat slaughterhouse allowed, no Orthodox. It's better that the government doesn't get involved in matters like this.

What nonsense is this?

127

 May 24, 2010 at 02:51 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #110  
Well Says:

If the Orthodox movement wants to claim Milhouse as one of their own, please point me to the Conservative headquarters. I know plenty of Conservative Jews who are as kosher as any of us, and they're...how shall I say....mentally stable.

If that is what you believe then you are already a kofer be'ikar. You'd be better off as a Protestant than as a Conservative. At least Protestants believe the entire Torah is Hashem's word. Conservatives don't.

128

 May 24, 2010 at 02:49 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #119  
Anonymous Says:

We also believe that things were changed over time! the gemara says we're not bakkiim in cheseiros v'yiseiros. the gemara says that ezra made a two out of three gorel on the chumashim when he came to the heichal. there are many rishonim who held that things have been changed over the years by our leaders.
rashi says "tikkun sofrim hu ze asher hafchuhu rabboseinu z'l", so we know that some things have been changed. not mitzvos though, the tzafnas peneach says that nevi'im could change things in the aggadic portions of the chumash, but not the mitzvos.

What sort of locksh are you trying to sell us, when Conservative "Judaism" teaches that the entire Torah is the work of men?

129

 May 24, 2010 at 02:47 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #118  
HaNavon Says:

There are four types of scales. cecloid, cenoid, which are kosher, placoid, which is not kosher and ganoid, which is a machlokes. The sturgeon has ganoid scales, the swordfish's scales fall off then they're young and I don't know what type of scale they are.
This is a very old machlokes, and there is definitely room to say that both the sturgeon and the swordfish are kosher. I can personally testify that I took a scale off of a sturgeon without having to treat it with lye first. My russian friend has one in his freezer, just to show people who say that sturgeon is not kosher, and the scale came right off, so that particular species of sturgeon is kosher according to anyone who looks at it. Most species of sturgeon have thick ganoid scales that cannot be removed unless they're soaked in lye for a few hours. There is a tshuvas nodeh b'yehida that it is mutar, there's a tshuvas tzemach tzedek that it is not.
As for swordfish, there were tshuvas from gedolei olam that held that it was kosher, since it has scales in its youth and loses them. I believe that it is not a non kosher fish, but nevertheless we don't eat it.

The scientific classification of scales has no bearing on halacha. Halacha is only concerned with whether they can be peeled off easily by hand, without tearing the skin. If they can, then the fish is kosher, no matter what classification the marine biologists give it. The whole project of matching the halachic criterion to the "four kinds" was misguided, and led to the misclassification of several fish. For instance, the OU for years listed blue marlin as treif, but a few years ago reclassified it as kosher; the reason was that the original list was compiled by a scientist according to the scientific classification, and nobody bothered to check whether the halachic criterion was met. Recently that was done, and lo and behold the scales came off just as they do from any kosher fish, so the blue marlin is now permitted by the OU.

130

 May 24, 2010 at 02:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #116  
Anonymous Says:

Consider the alternative though. In France there's only Conservative meat slaughterhouse allowed, no Orthodox. It's better that the government doesn't get involved in matters like this.

HUH? Tell that to Chabad and the Paris Beis Din!

131

 May 24, 2010 at 01:12 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #39  
Charlie Hall Says:

Triangle K is orthodox.

I wouldn't go that far. The triangle-K is not marketed to orthodox people. Yes, it is run by orthodox rabbonim, but it was designed for a different purpose. It was designed to give hashgocho to places and products that could not otherwise get it. It is essentially a way of saying that the item is "not treif". However, when you consider that the most lenient of opinions (although valid opinions) are relied upon in nearly every situation, it is not appropriate for orthodox people to eat these products. It is really done to improve kashrus in the conservative or "traditional" Jewish market. It is done as a way of ensuring that they are not buying actual TREIF, which many of the "Rabbis" in these liberal movements are all too willing to call kosher.

132

 May 24, 2010 at 08:30 AM Israeli Says:

Reply to #93  
Milhouse Says:

No, I don't get your point. Nobody would be charged with selling Belzer meat just because the Eida forbade it. But if such a charge would be brought, the court would have to call expert testimony on whether the charges against the Belzer shchita could be sustained, and if necessary appoint a special master; this is no different than similar determinations courts make all the time, on non-religious matters. It's only the Lemmon test that prevents courts from doing so when it comes to religion, and that is a made-up rule that has no basis in the constitution. But it would never come to that, since the first witness the defense would call would be a representative of the Eidah who assered it, and they would come to court and explain that they didn't mean it literally, and "dinom ke-" means "they should be treated AS IF". At worst the court would determine that it can't decide, and therefore find for the defense.

The bottom line is that none of this precludes a law that simply states the truth: that kosher means according to Orthodox Jewish law, however difficult it may be to determine what that is in some specific case.

You know very well that chaddische machlokes cannot come to secular courts. Look what happened in USA on the one that did. It was an enormous chillul Hashem, cost millions and to all practical purposes changed nothing.
The point I was making is that nowadays respected Botei Din (you accept that Eidah is acknowledged as being one of the best hechsherim in the world) declaring that any product is either kosher or not does not necessarily reflect on its kashrus. Unfortunately it is often about money or politics or other negios. Like it or not this ultimately reflects on the sh'miras kashrus of many people who are not "in the know" like you and me.
Another point: They might say that is not what they meant but it is certainly what they said. Where does that leave all their other many declarations?
Chachomim hizharu bedivreichem etc.

133

 May 24, 2010 at 08:37 AM Israeli Says:

Reply to #124  
Anonymous Says:

Yes, it does!

No, it doesn't.
Milhouse is obviously a learned, intelligent and deep thinking man. It is also clear that he is frum and has never said anything k'neged hatorah. I also don't agree with everything he says but he has every right to say it so long as, unlike many of the other posters here, he does not say any minos or k'firah, which he doesn't.

134

 May 24, 2010 at 10:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone kindly explain what conservative Jews call Kosher?

pigs..........but only if killed mercifully, and by ethical people.

135

 May 24, 2010 at 11:24 AM True definition of a pig Says:

Reply to #134  
Anonymous Says:

pigs..........but only if killed mercifully, and by ethical people.

1) Someone who is so threatened by other Jews that they feel the need to insult them.

2) Someone who uses the word ethical in a derogatory way.

In other words, your joke wasn't funny. I'm guessing you're a supporter of that convicted man in Iowa, now what was his name again?

136

 May 24, 2010 at 11:25 AM It takes all kinds Says:

Reply to #133  
Israeli Says:

No, it doesn't.
Milhouse is obviously a learned, intelligent and deep thinking man. It is also clear that he is frum and has never said anything k'neged hatorah. I also don't agree with everything he says but he has every right to say it so long as, unlike many of the other posters here, he does not say any minos or k'firah, which he doesn't.

One man's idea of learned is another man's idea of certifiably insane.

137

 May 24, 2010 at 04:00 PM Paskunyak Says:

FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES:

Go onto the websites of the Conservative Organizations higherarchy or Reform for that matter, and see what their philosophy is.

No need to argue about something you know so little about as is obvious in many of the comments I've read.

You will see that the Reforms are chazer fressers and that the Conservative while many won't eat actual chazer are treif fressers. LOOK IT UP!

Make sure your brain is in gear before putting your jaw into drive!

138

 May 25, 2010 at 12:01 AM Bubbemaysses Says:

Getting smicha simply means that one has learnt the various sections of the Shulchan Aruch regarding kashrus and treifus, hilchois Shabbos and has been tested by a qualified and authentic Rov. Anything less than that is nonsense. A proper rabbi should be well versed in hilchos Yom Tov, niddah, as well.

139

 May 26, 2010 at 03:41 PM Lee Smith Says:

As much as I have grimaced when the Conservative committment to Kashruth is not recognized, I wonder if this isn't a pyrric victory.

A Pyrrhic victory (pronounced /ˈpɪrɪk/) is a victory with devastating cost to the victor

In our community, in Central New York, once the NY State Dept of Agriculture regulations were declared unconstitutional, it became "anything goes". Our last "Kosher deli" became Kosher style (like a little pregnant?) had some kosher stuff mixed in with the trief, and anyone who enquired learned that the owner was a self declared expert in Kashruth. True, anyone in the community with an interest in Kashruth knew that place was as trief as could be (I tried to explain to one of the staff there that the word Kosher, even Kosher style, ought not be associated with a place that sold shrimp salad and clam choweder) ---- what about visitors to the community who saw "KOSHER" in big letters with a small trailing "style". The owners claimed that XXX Kosher Deli was their name, not a description of the food. So the Conservative movement has now established that the word Kosher has no meaning, and let the buyer beware! As I see it, Orthodox supervision is generally a

140

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