Jerusalem, Israel – Israeli police said that a group of charedi mohelim suspected of being part of a pirate circumcision network that carried out illegal bris milah’s on dozens of Russian teenagers in Jerusalem has fled the country and remains at large.
They have performed the circumcisions on the 16-17-year-old youths in a private city apartment in exchange for presents and without the consent of their parents.
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The affair came to light after the mother of one of the teens discovered what had happened to her 16-year-old son and filed a complaint with police.
Jerusalem police subsequently raided the city apartment where the suspects allegedly carried out the circumcisions, but the suspects had already fled the country.
According to police, the leaders would solicit teens, most of whom were Russian-born and had not undergone circumcision as babies, in schools outside of Jerusalem and cajole them into undertaking the operation in exchange for gifts.
They would then be driven to Jerusalem during the night for the operation.
Police said the circumcisions were carried out in the apartment without basic sanitary conditions.
The complainant also gave for police a copy of a videotape she found in her son’s room, in which the whole illegal circumcision procedure was documented.
Harav 12:59 Yes, if a ban is ordered by the health department, I would make the bris in NJ or in North Korea if there is the only place it is not banned. I would respect the law and try to negotiate it or eliminate it the democratic way, with tough but respectful dialog, then with -democratic ammunition- votes.
I would also highly respect and support/help the mesiras nefesh of other people as long as they only violate, verbally attack, negotiate the applicable law or the people behind the law/ban. But not if they attack the democracy as a whole, verbally or physically. I wouldn’t respect that.
This is what lehovdel the fundamental muslims are doing, verbal became physical.
In the last 2000 years we never had such peace & prosperity, thanks to democracy. So why should we pull the rug out from under us? For now democracy is working very well. Here is a saying from the chochma umos huholum… If it ain’t broke don’t fix.
Mr. 11:44,
What was your reaction to the metzitzah b’feh (almost) ban? What would you advise people who hold that a milah is only kosher if they do it? Would you really advise them to leave NYS? Would you accept the law since it was made in a democracy? What ever happened to mesiras nefesh for a mitzvah? I’m not attacking, just interested to hear your full view.
Anon 1:13 you have a good point I would add or put political pressure to change the law i.e. for mileh: age 13 and if licensed.
Russia and China don’t qualify as democracies.
In the USA (or any democracy) it is very unlikely. Because the majority of people, in there own interest, have a live and let live attitude. Unless there is some high pitched emotions in the population due to an indirect event, or some real direct issue with milah, not being addressed by the parties involved, such a law will not pass in a democracy.
If it does pass in the USA, and the attitude behind it stinks, then it would be time to leave the country before it is too late.
I wouldn’t risk punishment in China for example. milah is not “hereg veol yavoir”, but I would highly respect people who will risk it. I would focus on leaving the country.
My main point is: State laws in a decent democracy should be given some respect. Regardless if you agree with the law.
“Mitzvahs should be performed within state laws. Or make sure you don’t get caught. Or accept the punishment B’hohove. Otherwise welcome to Sedom, V’emoru or Iran, Afganistan…”
and what about communist Russia, China etc?
What would you do if America outlawed milah?
I think the real issue here is the lack of parental consent AND the lack of real consent of the patient. The kids were bribed with stuff. Who even says they have any interest in yiddishkeit? Maybe this experience will turn them off and make them haters?
It’s not illogical to prohibit any procedure on any none adult person without the parents consent.
It’s not illogical for a state to set adult status to someone under 18.
It’s not illogical to set laws written by representatives elected by majority vote.
It’s not illogical to prosecute and punish people who violate state law.
Mitzvahs should be performed within state laws. Or make sure you don’t get caught. Or accept the punishment B’hohove. Otherwise welcome to Sedom, V’emoru or Iran, Afganistan…
B”H Israel is not named one of the following: Yeshivishstan, Chosidishstan, Mizruchishstan, Zionistan. Otherwise you can be prosecuted/pay a fine for missing zman Tefile, or for not going to the mikva…
It’s supposed to mean that brisin are done on yiddish boys from russia alot. Mostly in russia before they get to israel, but with the new wave of baali teshuva in eretz yisroel it is done alot. Only the israeli gov is so afraid that too many people will become frum that they would love to grab this mohel and make a guinea pig out of him. Put the fear of g-d into him so that no other mehalim would dream of chulila performing a bris without their consent.
the anasthesia is a local, not a general. like what you get at the dentist.
“and come on this goes on all the time, and it is really a great mitzvah and you know it.
12:27 AM”
What is this supposed to mean?
Anon 12:27,
It would be a bigger problem if they did use anasthesia b/c they are not licensed to purchase it or administer it, much less to a child without his legal guardian’s permission. They are probably in less trouble if they did it with no medicine at all. But IIRC, here in the States, the common procedure for teenage Russian brissim is to use anasthesia. And the mohel has the proper license/training for it.
Avrohom Avinu gave himself a bris, so what’s there to talk about? And, no, he didn’t videotape it. And he wasn’t 16 years old and bribed with gifts either.
How old was avrahom aveinu when he did it. Did he use anesthesia? Did he put Yismael to sleep before performing it on him?
Who said that they did not anesthatize the subject. Where are you taking that info from. People go on and on instead of sticking to the facts. and come on this goes on all the time, and it is really a great mitzvah and you know it.
Anon 9:13
That’s true. I see that side of it. But I honestly don’t think that’s where and why this brouhaha began. I wonder- what do the Rabbeim advise about something like this?
Anon 2:26,
DOn’t you see that a circumcision is viewed as a medical procedure (which requires anasthetic on adults [and even infants]) while piercings are not? Mah inyan shmittah eitzel har sinai?
p.s. my argument doesn’t mean that I condemn the Mohelim, but surely you can see where the State/Health Services are coming from even if they weren’t sonei torah umitzvos, which they probably are.
The problem with metitza b’peh is only in new york and you know they were making mountains out of moyels I mean molehills. But the mohalim should make sure they do not have herpes before doing a bris. In eretz yisroel where we should be free to do mitzvos a mohel should not have to worry about making a bris. It’s these zionist who are afraid of the knife but will use the (sword) gun.
Who knows if those Russian kids were even Jewish…? (as many aren’t in Israel)
I would say these mohelim need to have their brain circumcised but there wouldn’t be anything left.
The neshoma of a yid cries, even if his parents are not interested.
Shkoyech, aleh v’hotzlach to those mohelim…
Dont just becuase they were offered presents that they were bribed- i bet you couldnt bribe a non jewish here in the USA 1million $ to be circumcized (even though the typical teen here is ready to cut and pierce every other part of the body….
In this country they would get the mohel for doing Meziza B’Peh
This is ridiculous. Can we count how many teenagers out there are undergoing the most outlandish procedures (i.e. tattoos, piercings, etc.) for the most outrageous reasons every minute in this country and NOONE SAYS A WORD??
A child under 10 should only undergo such a proceedure in the presence of his father. A teenager on the other hand is a uniques person who is under going change every day. He can make a conceice decision to want to have a bris milah done (leshem shomayim) a child cannot.
maybe they should have waited until the boy was the age of majority (17 or 18). What would you think if the boy was 5-10?
sounds like the boy underwent the milah just to get even with the rabbonim, since it was videotaped. Only in Israel would they be looking for the mehalim who made a bris, everywhere else they would respect it.
shame on you isreal!!! your have the name yisroal but your the biggest dictature against jews shame!
But to video tape a teenage milah?
Good for them they were doing a huge Mitzvah.