“ Who ever you are: your "usid liten es hadin". Who are you to decide on an organization that toils day and night for other people without making a profit.

Who are you to say your opinion on something that much bigger people said theirs.

Who gave you permission to abuse the platform you have.

Shame. ”

“ Who ever you are: your "usid liten es hadin". Who are you to decide on an organization that toils day and night for other people without making a profit.

Who are you to say your opinion on something that much bigger people said theirs.

Who gave you permission to abuse the platform you have.

Shame. ”

“ I can understand that Rabbi Horowitz doesn't think that this Organization will have enough money down the road to cover all the donors for $100,000 per orphan, but why is it imperative to disassociate with them, after all it is a worthy Tzedakah that helps Almonas and Yesomim with your money. ”

“ Where does a single "yuchid" take the guts to say this is beyond me. ”

“ whats your question? you want to know who Rabbi Horowitz is? due some research like he did on Areivim & then you will know who he is.
I dont know Rabbi Horowitz, but I do know that he did a lot of research about this organiation, he spoke to the people who run it & asked them many different question and he based his dicision after weeks of going through all the detail.
My question is WHO ARE YOU? who has the chutzpah to be mevazeh so blatently a talmud chochom, a rov, a rabbi, a marbitz torah who has done more for klall yisroel then you will ever do in six lifetimes.
so i hope that now you know who Rabbi Horowitz is ”

“ whats your question? you want to know who Rabbi Horowitz is? due some research like he did on Areivim & then you will know who he is.
I dont know Rabbi Horowitz, but I do know that he did a lot of research about this organiation, he spoke to the people who run it & asked them many different question and he based his dicision after weeks of going through all the detail.
My question is WHO ARE YOU? who has the chutzpah to be mevazeh so blatently a talmud chochom, a rov, a rabbi, a marbitz torah who has done more for klall yisroel then you will ever do in six lifetimes.
so i hope that now you know who Rabbi Horowitz is ”

“ We live in a internet world where a Rabbi can make conclusions and bury an organization like Areivim...I know of 2 almunes who benefit from them and b"h they received the $$$ what areivim stands for..How does Rabbi Horowitz take the achreies to condem such an org......I think he need Al Chyte with a hammer for this one...... ”

“ Areivim was founded here in the USA by about 20 chesed organizations and project coordinators. They have a well staffed office and are running it very professionally; people are getting signed up, getting their confirmations, members are getting notified by phone, email, etc before money is taken etc. They have a vaad of rabbonim, a vaad balei batim etc. and boruch hashem to date they helped a nice few almonos and yesomim, a family Lakewood, a family in Williamsburg, a family in Monsey etc,
Hashem should help that the organization should close down fast, we shouldn’t need their services anymore, but in the meantime I wish them great hatzloche ”

“ We live in a internet world where a Rabbi can make conclusions and bury an organization like Areivim...I know of 2 almunes who benefit from them and b"h they received the $$$ what areivim stands for..How does Rabbi Horowitz take the achreies to condem such an org......I think he need Al Chyte with a hammer for this one...... ”

“ In theory this is a great idea, but it does not stand a chance of succeeding. ”

“ al chyte with a hammer, huh? well aren't you the funny guy? did you ever run a business? why don't you find out how many people are behind in their payments?
i assure you this kind of plan would be very well funded....in the beginning.
Eventually over time, it unintentionally assumes the Pyramid effect (not scheme).
go hammer out some common sense. ”

“ I'm shocked, I know you well Rabbi Horowitz and know that you're a very responsible person, so how can you take it upon yourself such an Achreiyess with unforeseeable results? Some people are going to take your advice, but others won't therefore what happens then? Do we now become kiitois kitois? You had good questions and they had good answers and those questions you didn't ask, and those answers they didn't give, were supplied by many readers. Rabbi Horowitz, I respect you greatly, but cannot fathom how you, a one man team can take all this responsibility on you shoulders. Wouldn't it have been a better idea to call for an Asifa of Klal leaders to come to either conclusion? I personally have life insurance, but I joined anyhow and gladly paid the money when it was asked from me. I have a feeling that it has thousands of members like me; the main question remains, yes, you spoke up for the unfortunate God forbid future Almoness and Yesoimim, but did you speak correctly?

We can all be wrong, and maybe you’re right, but who can take such a responsibility? ”

“ Being Motzti Shem Ra on an organization that has already helped L.A. several
Almonos and Yesomin, is a VERY SINFUL act.
I am a member, whose children are B.H. married. When I receive the calls
from Areivim I am more than happy to be part of such a great mitzva, that cost so little..
Areivim is Mezake the Rabbim, by making thousands of people contribute to
each cause.
Nothing is garuanteed, and down the road, I hate to tell you that insurance
companies can also go bankrupt. Everybody has his own mazel, and so
does the beneficiary.
I hate to tell you, but we invested in insurance companies in Europe and
got back pennies on the dollars when the policies matured!
We are not supposed to play G-d, we must do Hishtadlus, and the outcome
does not depend on us. In the meantime, thousands of people gave
Tzedaka (by not making too big a dent in anybody's pocket), quite a number
of needy people were helped B'derech Kovod, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO
SAY, "IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT BREAK IT?"
Causing people to refrain from giving Tzedaka is a big Aveira,
This news blog did not sound like constructive criticism, this should never
have gone public, its a big shame (good intentions is not an excuse ”

“ I don't understand rabbi Horowitz how he takes his numbers that they won't have money to pay $100000 for each yosem this is not N investmet to get money back this is only if unfortch

This is not a investment to get back money it's only if Ch"I sombody needs it they ask money from the members thanks god I have a life insurance also some other investmen and I am a member I also had my married children becomeing members
"this is not a investment" ”

“ Who ever you are: your "usid liten es hadin". Who are you to decide on an organization that toils day and night for other people without making a profit.

Who are you to say your opinion on something that much bigger people said theirs.

Who gave you permission to abuse the platform you have.

Shame. ”

“ I have one question for you. If an organization says they have certain board members and the reported board members say it is not so, should the organization be trusted. Especially, an organization that will be entrusted with huge sums anf there is a long time horizon, where trust is vital.

We can put this issue to rest very quickly, contact Yatty Wienreb, Abe Roth or Abe Biderman and ask them if they are directors of the organization. If they are Rabbi Horowitz (a dear friend of mine) is in the dog house. If they aren't, lets all thank Rabbi Horowitz.

This way we do not have to speculate if a few askonim can create a life insurance model that is more efficient and reliable than New York Life, if this model is legal based on prevailing insurance law, and if this is a proper activity for a charity based on IRS code as opposed to our understanding of tzedakah

As an aside, if you were purchasing life insurance to potentially protect your wife and children would you choose Prudential, John Hancock, New York Life or Arievim.

Rabbi Horowitz took the time to deal with this in a proper and dignified manner. If any readers take exception fell free to put him to the test. ”

“ Who ever you are: your "usid liten es hadin". Who are you to decide on an organization that toils day and night for other people without making a profit.

Who are you to say your opinion on something that much bigger people said theirs.

Who gave you permission to abuse the platform you have.

Shame. ”

“ My wife is an actuary, and she like almost all actuaries she knows are shocked by this program and very upset that people are participating rather than purchasing basic term life. There is numerous problems with this program including the lack of real underwriting, lack of any real transparency and oversight, lack of any financial soundness assessment, and much more. Folks are asking for trouble here.

This organization needs to get a frum actuary to run a full analysis and then present it publicly. They also need to have an enforceable legal structure where it isnt just a "board" who decides who get what instead of the flimsy benefit structure there is now. Also, they need to have a very public list of administration and staff so people know who they are giving their money to.

Until this is done, people are asking for serious trouble. ”

“ My wife is an actuary, and she like almost all actuaries she knows are shocked by this program and very upset that people are participating rather than purchasing basic term life. There is numerous problems with this program including the lack of real underwriting, lack of any real transparency and oversight, lack of any financial soundness assessment, and much more. Folks are asking for trouble here.

This organization needs to get a frum actuary to run a full analysis and then present it publicly. They also need to have an enforceable legal structure where it isnt just a "board" who decides who get what instead of the flimsy benefit structure there is now. Also, they need to have a very public list of administration and staff so people know who they are giving their money to.

Until this is done, people are asking for serious trouble. ”

“ My wife is an actuary, and she like almost all actuaries she knows are shocked by this program and very upset that people are participating rather than purchasing basic term life. There is numerous problems with this program including the lack of real underwriting, lack of any real transparency and oversight, lack of any financial soundness assessment, and much more. Folks are asking for trouble here.

This organization needs to get a frum actuary to run a full analysis and then present it publicly. They also need to have an enforceable legal structure where it isnt just a "board" who decides who get what instead of the flimsy benefit structure there is now. Also, they need to have a very public list of administration and staff so people know who they are giving their money to.

Until this is done, people are asking for serious trouble. ”

“ You have the chutzpah to question Rabbi Horowitz. You know how I know Rabbi Horowtz is right is the fact that people like you are screaming and getting all meshugah. When someone is wrong on an issue there is maybe 2 posts and no commotion. But look what is going on in the community and 99% of the people agree with Rabbi Horowitz just by looking at the forum on the jewish blogs.

Secondly, Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum Zt"l used to scream bout these issue all the time and he also was mocked, made fun of and only when it was popular to "agree" with Reb Eli did everyone take credit for things that he screamed about over and over again. There are not too many people that have the guts like Reb Eli did or like Rabbi Horowitz does and this , in my opinion is really what the root of the problem is. We don't like hearing anything about the truth in our communities and we don't like the word CHANGE.

When Rabbi Horowitz screamed about kids at risk when that was not the popular thing to even talk about , everyone including this blog said feh with Rabbi Horowitz and mocked him. Would anyone have the chutzpha today not to recognize and give credit to Rabbi Horowitz today for changing the status quo? ”

“ It already suceeded, ask the yesoimim who benefitted. ”

“ Anyone who wants to see why Rabbi Horowitz is advising all of you to drop areivim can go to his website where its all spelled out nice and clear. For starters they wouldn't answer his basic questions . For ex

They won't say who their posek is
They won't name any of the "hundreds" of Rabbis who supposedly not only endorse the program but are "investing time, energy and heart in this project, one which has become a priority to them."
They won't provide a full list of board members, and 3 of the 16 people who were named contacted Rabbi Horowitz after their names were linked to the organization to deny any involvement.(In other words, they lied)
hey won't name the people who run the office.
They won't name the actuaries, lawyers and accountants who allegedly signed of on the program
They sidestepped questions about payments, fees and commissions.
They wouldn't explain how investment or disbursement decisions will be made
They wouldn't explain how grievances are addressed, or what is done if someone feels they've been mistreated

I have more on my blog dovbear.blogspot.com (I'm running out of characters here) ”

“ look at how many people and organizations who worked on it and endorsed it, are chickening out and not agreeing to publicly vouch for this organization's legitimacy.

Until this is done, people are asking for serious trouble - I would just say, that if this is undone c"v, we're all asking for serious trouble.

I think you're wife either didn't take the time to do her due diligence on KYA, or might not be an actuary at all. ”

“ We live in a internet world where a Rabbi can make conclusions and bury an organization like Areivim...I know of 2 almunes who benefit from them and b"h they received the $$$ what areivim stands for..How does Rabbi Horowitz take the achreies to condem such an org......I think he need Al Chyte with a hammer for this one...... ”

“ Just because he does a fabulous job with Kids at Risk, doesn't mean that
he is now an authority on every issue of Chessed.
He is a wonderful Mechanech (his articles are fabulous), but please
leave Almonos and Yesomim alone.
Fargin them the money that is raised by Areivim, and as long as it lasts,
it will last.
We have to do Hishtadlus, Hashem makes it happen.
Mir darfen tun, nisht auftun! ”

“ They don't want to publish the board members, actuarys accountants , the yesiomim who benefited. Gut in himel why is there always another scam by yissidshe kinder?! ”

“ From my experience it is run like a highschool project, total joke. ”

“ Who ever you are: your "usid liten es hadin". Who are you to decide on an organization that toils day and night for other people without making a profit.

Who are you to say your opinion on something that much bigger people said theirs.

Who gave you permission to abuse the platform you have.

Shame. ”

“ Anyone who wants to see why Rabbi Horowitz is advising all of you to drop areivim can go to his website where its all spelled out nice and clear. For starters they wouldn't answer his basic questions . For ex

They won't say who their posek is
They won't name any of the "hundreds" of Rabbis who supposedly not only endorse the program but are "investing time, energy and heart in this project, one which has become a priority to them."
They won't provide a full list of board members, and 3 of the 16 people who were named contacted Rabbi Horowitz after their names were linked to the organization to deny any involvement.(In other words, they lied)
hey won't name the people who run the office.
They won't name the actuaries, lawyers and accountants who allegedly signed of on the program
They sidestepped questions about payments, fees and commissions.
They wouldn't explain how investment or disbursement decisions will be made
They wouldn't explain how grievances are addressed, or what is done if someone feels they've been mistreated

I have more on my blog dovbear.blogspot.com (I'm running out of characters here) ”

“ Rabbi Horowitz spent much time and investigated this thoroughly before he would put his name on paper advising other avenues for life insurance. He would never do this without thought and restraint. There are not too many Rabbis (He is really not a "Rav") who speak out and are not afraid to buck the system. He is a good man and does a tremendous amount of good for Klal Yisrael. ”

“ Whats the different between the 3 Areivim programs thats out there?? ”

“ As far a the board members and actuary's accountans, call them and they
WILL reassure you of all your doubts.
The list of Yesomim? that is supposed to be confidential, but I'm sure they
will give you a list of people who will vouch for the money that it was
distributed.
I did all that, just for the record, and all my questions (not doubts) were
removed. ”

“ hey if you have life insurance, you (your heirs) are in for a surprise. they won't get paid a cent. areivim specifically says that if the person has assets or insurance they will not cover ”

“ We live in a internet world where a Rabbi can make conclusions and bury an organization like Areivim...I know of 2 almunes who benefit from them and b"h they received the $$$ what areivim stands for..How does Rabbi Horowitz take the achreies to condem such an org......I think he need Al Chyte with a hammer for this one...... ”

“ Areivim was founded here in the USA by about 20 chesed organizations and project coordinators. They have a well staffed office and are running it very professionally; people are getting signed up, getting their confirmations, members are getting notified by phone, email, etc before money is taken etc. They have a vaad of rabbonim, a vaad balei batim etc. and boruch hashem to date they helped a nice few almonos and yesomim, a family Lakewood, a family in Williamsburg, a family in Monsey etc,
Hashem should help that the organization should close down fast, we shouldn’t need their services anymore, but in the meantime I wish them great hatzloche ”

“ I have one question for you. If an organization says they have certain board members and the reported board members say it is not so, should the organization be trusted. Especially, an organization that will be entrusted with huge sums anf there is a long time horizon, where trust is vital.

We can put this issue to rest very quickly, contact Yatty Wienreb, Abe Roth or Abe Biderman and ask them if they are directors of the organization. If they are Rabbi Horowitz (a dear friend of mine) is in the dog house. If they aren't, lets all thank Rabbi Horowitz.

This way we do not have to speculate if a few askonim can create a life insurance model that is more efficient and reliable than New York Life, if this model is legal based on prevailing insurance law, and if this is a proper activity for a charity based on IRS code as opposed to our understanding of tzedakah

As an aside, if you were purchasing life insurance to potentially protect your wife and children would you choose Prudential, John Hancock, New York Life or Arievim.

Rabbi Horowitz took the time to deal with this in a proper and dignified manner. If any readers take exception fell free to put him to the test. ”

“ Being Motzti Shem Ra on an organization that has already helped L.A. several
Almonos and Yesomin, is a VERY SINFUL act.
I am a member, whose children are B.H. married. When I receive the calls
from Areivim I am more than happy to be part of such a great mitzva, that cost so little..
Areivim is Mezake the Rabbim, by making thousands of people contribute to
each cause.
Nothing is garuanteed, and down the road, I hate to tell you that insurance
companies can also go bankrupt. Everybody has his own mazel, and so
does the beneficiary.
I hate to tell you, but we invested in insurance companies in Europe and
got back pennies on the dollars when the policies matured!
We are not supposed to play G-d, we must do Hishtadlus, and the outcome
does not depend on us. In the meantime, thousands of people gave
Tzedaka (by not making too big a dent in anybody's pocket), quite a number
of needy people were helped B'derech Kovod, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO
SAY, "IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT BREAK IT?"
Causing people to refrain from giving Tzedaka is a big Aveira,
This news blog did not sound like constructive criticism, this should never
have gone public, its a big shame (good intentions is not an excuse ”

“ He does well to advise people to buy life insurance, but that shouldn't stop
people from contributing to those who can't.
I've heard that he suggested to open a Gmach to pay for Life insurance,
does he realize how much money that would entail? How many people will
he be able to cover?.
This is not a new idea, a very successful insurance broker tried to implement
such a program a long time ago, and wasn't too successful.
A Yeshiva in Flatbush, also raised a huge sum of money to set aside for
retirement benefits for their Mechanchim, and the money was lost to a
bad investment.
We have no guarantees in life, what do you think Life Insurance Co;s do
with the money? they make investments, we've seen huge banks go
"under" and we've seen huge investments go sour.
Can Rabbi Horowitz guarantee the future of Klall Yisroel? ”

“ I'm not an actuary. Nonetheless, I was able to take the numbers provided by the program, the mortality rates published by the CDC and run the numbers to see if the program works.

The way the program is set up, it can accommodate 48 orphans per year. That's based on the fact that the 16,500 members are charged a maximum of $288 a year. However, when I ran the numbers against the mortality rates, I found that there is almost no way a group can have less than 48 orphans.

I ran three scenarios and in the best of them there were 96 orphans -- twice as many as the program could accommodate.

You're free to check out my blog post (http://wolfishmusings.blogspot.com/2010/05/areivim-my-opinion-on-matter-and-some.html) about it where I describe my methodology and the assumptions I made regarding the population of the group. In the post is a link to a spreadsheet where you can see how I ran the numbers.

If you think my methodology is flawed in a way that will significantly alter the numbers, let me know and I'll run them again.

Aside from the fact that the numbers don't work, I also had numerous other concerns regarding how payouts are to be handled and who is eligible.

The Wolf ”

“ I'm not an actuary. Nonetheless, I was able to take the numbers provided by the program, the mortality rates published by the CDC and run the numbers to see if the program works.

The way the program is set up, it can accommodate 48 orphans per year. That's based on the fact that the 16,500 members are charged a maximum of $288 a year. However, when I ran the numbers against the mortality rates, I found that there is almost no way a group can have less than 48 orphans.

I ran three scenarios and in the best of them there were 96 orphans -- twice as many as the program could accommodate.

You're free to check out my blog post (http://wolfishmusings.blogspot.com/2010/05/areivim-my-opinion-on-matter-and-some.html) about it where I describe my methodology and the assumptions I made regarding the population of the group. In the post is a link to a spreadsheet where you can see how I ran the numbers.

If you think my methodology is flawed in a way that will significantly alter the numbers, let me know and I'll run them again.

Aside from the fact that the numbers don't work, I also had numerous other concerns regarding how payouts are to be handled and who is eligible.

The Wolf ”

“ can anyone verify if people think this is instead of life insurance??? i think its safe to say most people look at this as an efficient tzedaka org. ”

“ It already suceeded, ask the yesoimim who benefitted. ”

“ I have one question for you. If an organization says they have certain board members and the reported board members say it is not so, should the organization be trusted. Especially, an organization that will be entrusted with huge sums anf there is a long time horizon, where trust is vital.

We can put this issue to rest very quickly, contact Yatty Wienreb, Abe Roth or Abe Biderman and ask them if they are directors of the organization. If they are Rabbi Horowitz (a dear friend of mine) is in the dog house. If they aren't, lets all thank Rabbi Horowitz.

This way we do not have to speculate if a few askonim can create a life insurance model that is more efficient and reliable than New York Life, if this model is legal based on prevailing insurance law, and if this is a proper activity for a charity based on IRS code as opposed to our understanding of tzedakah

As an aside, if you were purchasing life insurance to potentially protect your wife and children would you choose Prudential, John Hancock, New York Life or Arievim.

Rabbi Horowitz took the time to deal with this in a proper and dignified manner. If any readers take exception fell free to put him to the test. ”

“ Wolf,

Your calculations are flawed. You assume that all participants are eligible to be recipients. I have adequate life insurance and am a member with KYA. I know many other people who definitely wouldn't be eligible but signed up as a gesture of achdus in klal yisrael.

I would also assume that most people eligible to receive are younger than 30. By the time people reach 30 they usually are working and could afford term life insurance, or might have accumulated significant assets, own an established business, etc. If you were to calculate that the older members are much less likely to receive a payout, and that there are many young members who are also ineligible, you would come up with very different numbers.

As to your other points, I believe they have been addressed by others in previous comments.

In Israel I have doubts if it can work, due to much more members being eligible for a payout, and larger family sizes.

I really enjoyed your thought out analysis, although I think you miscalculated. Nice plug for your blog though! ”

“ we are not statistics, we should all daven to Hashem that there should
not be any new orphans, and prove your statistics wrongs.
Yidden are above the Mazel and above Teva. ”

“ The money you lost was obviously not yours. You either stole it, committed tax fraud, tax evasion or some other not ehrliche deed. Because if it were yours, it would stay yours. Therefore, your entire comment is "oopgefraigt".. ”

“ I don't know how to respond to your remark!

Of course we should all daven to HaShem. But we know that people do die, and people do (unfortunately) die young.

I would LOVE for a year to go by with no new orpahns and for you to say "Wolf, you really blew it this time!" But that's not going to happen. We may be above mazel, but (despite your silly assertion) we aren't above statistics. You can't just throw up an organization and say "the heck with the stats -- it'll work anyway." That's like Hatzoloh proposing to cover all of New York City with one ambulance and saying "the heck with accident rates" -- we shouldn't need the service, but to put up the organization in a state that is completely unable to face reality is irresponsible.

The Wolf ”

“ Thank you for your well intentioned subtle character assassination of a fine institution. ”

“ I don't know how to respond to your remark!

Of course we should all daven to HaShem. But we know that people do die, and people do (unfortunately) die young.

I would LOVE for a year to go by with no new orpahns and for you to say "Wolf, you really blew it this time!" But that's not going to happen. We may be above mazel, but (despite your silly assertion) we aren't above statistics. You can't just throw up an organization and say "the heck with the stats -- it'll work anyway." That's like Hatzoloh proposing to cover all of New York City with one ambulance and saying "the heck with accident rates" -- we shouldn't need the service, but to put up the organization in a state that is completely unable to face reality is irresponsible.

The Wolf ”

“ Mr. Wolfish do you think that this vast majority that enrolled for the payout would have otherwise been LI policy holders? open your eyes and look at the STATISTICS of the percentage of humanity holding life insurance policies!

i relly do think that even if Horowitz thinks he has a better solution and that tha aareivim solution does not seem the right one in his eyes, there is no logic to undermining it before presenting the alternative in all its details ready for the klal to enroll. ”

“ The Wolf, its about time Hashem takes us out of Galus, we have unfortunately
become "fargoyisht". You feel we aren't above statistics, well we are above
statistics.
You gave a very poor example, becasue if Hatzolah had only one ambulance to
his disposal, would you say that they should close shop, or would you say
that they should try to save whomever they can? If the ambulance was
parked in Crown Heights, and he got a call that somebody was severely
injured in Boro Park, wouldn't you say that he should run and try to save this
life, or would you say, that we must wait until somebody in Crown Heights
needs us?
Don't try to run the world, Olom Chessed Yiboneh, if we stop making
Chashbonos, Hashem will deal with us without Chashbonos and give
us Matnas Chinom, more than we deserve.
Hashem tells us, "if you're so smart, I'll let you run the world.." and then
we suffer from Hester Panim.
Let's show Hashem that we depend on him, pischu li pesach kpischo shel
machat ....and I shall open a hole as large as an Ulam. We must only
show Hashem, that we want to help our brethern, Hashem is the one
who will make it happen. ”

“ A well intentioned Ponzi scheme is still a ponzi scheme ”

“ Life Insurance is a ponzi scheme and so are banks. If an unpredicted amount of people died in one year, Life Insurance would not be able to meet their
obligations, same with the banks, if every person would decide to withdraw
their money in one week, the banks would declare bankrupcy.
Anybody that becomes a member in Areivim, is aware that the logistics
may change, NOBODY can garuantee you anything.
BUT... we do have a garuantee from Hashem "Eilu Devorim She ein lohem
Shir...Eilu devarim sheodom ochel peiroseihem Bo olom haze VEHKERE
LE OLOM HABO..amongst others, .one of them is Gemilas Chassodim,
and another is Hachnosas Kallo, HASHEM is our "garuantor".

Therefore, lets face it...Areivim is a good and solid investment, and
nobody can beat that. ”

“ Life Insurance is a ponzi scheme and so are banks. If an unpredicted amount of people died in one year, Life Insurance would not be able to meet their
obligations, same with the banks, if every person would decide to withdraw
their money in one week, the banks would declare bankrupcy.
Anybody that becomes a member in Areivim, is aware that the logistics
may change, NOBODY can garuantee you anything.
BUT... we do have a garuantee from Hashem "Eilu Devorim She ein lohem
Shir...Eilu devarim sheodom ochel peiroseihem Bo olom haze VEHKERE
LE OLOM HABO..amongst others, .one of them is Gemilas Chassodim,
and another is Hachnosas Kallo, HASHEM is our "garuantor".

Therefore, lets face it...Areivim is a good and solid investment, and
nobody can beat that. ”

“ No, I don't think they would have been policy holders. But I feel that people are going to view this as an insurance substitute. They will enroll and then decide that they don't need life insurance -- when, in fact, the proper thing for them to do is to get life insurance in the first place.

The Wolf ”

“ In its best light, the program masquerades as life insurance to efficiently collect tzedaka for yesomim and almonos by credit card debits. People don't expect a subjective determination of their "needs" after the death of a parent by a shadowy board. Being straight forward.and removing the insurance mask would help this group a great deal. ”

“ The money you lost was obviously not yours. You either stole it, committed tax fraud, tax evasion or some other not ehrliche deed. Because if it were yours, it would stay yours. Therefore, your entire comment is "oopgefraigt".. ”

“ I live in a part of the world where there have been many Ponzi schemes, and the earliest ones were actually run by people who are much like the Arevim chevra - they were not out to cheat anyone but really thought their business model of paying earlier participants with money from later ones was a valid one that could go on forever.

Yes, some people have (LA) gotten payouts. But Rav Horowitz is warning us that according to his careful research, the system is one set up by well meaning people with no business understanding and no viable model. Therefore at some point the system will collapse and leave disaster in its wake. He does so in a menschlich way and is not profiting himself from any alternative to Arevim. ”

“ I read the 90+ comments above, and I am shocked by the extremism of the comments in either direction as well as the departure from the Caution sign that was the conclusion of Rabbi Horowitz after much research. KYA has failed to be transparent, and every tzedokoh needs to be. Not because of a business model, though that needs to be the case, but because it takes someone else's money with a goal in mind. If I want to contribute to support yesomim, and the result is not achieved, I have not succeeded in performing a mitzvah, despite my intentions. I monitored the dialogue on rabbihorowitz.com, and the evasiveness that KYA displayed was alarming and disconcerting. Rabbi Horowitz did thorough research, asked direct questions, and KYA sidestepped almost every single issue. If someone approached you for "Hachnosas Kallah", and used the money to go on vacation to Bermuda, would you think it proper? Perhaps we should not check up every "collector", but organizations have a public duty to be transparent. KYA failed that test. We need to be sure that tzedokoh reaches its target or it ceases to be a mitzvah. What's so hard to understand? ”

“ It is my humbleopinion that both, Areivim and Kol Yisroel Areivim, are well intentioned concepts but woefully defective and deficient. For starters, both are definitely NOT tzedakas. You are paying specifically for protection (insurance) regardless of how the payments are structured. Further, not one penny will go to any family that is not a paying member. Where exactly is the tzedaka? Secondly, these organizations will have to be licensed as private-mutual life insurance companies (groups, unions, societys, etc.). If not, they will be ILLEGAL. Considering the above absolutely relevant aspects, there is no question that for the exact same money, families can purchase legitimate, regulated, bonded, certified insurance policies WITHOUT any of the considerable drawbacks and limitation of the Areivim organizatios. It's black or white. It's that simple. Rabbi Horowitz is rigt on the money. ”

“ the top of the pyramid always gets paid ”

“ A well intentioned Ponzi scheme is still a ponzi scheme ”

“ If Hatzoloh had only one ambulance, I would NOT say that they close up shop -- I would say that they should scale back their operation to something more realistic. Instead of trying to service all of New York with one ambulance, they should service one neighborhood (or whatever geographic region can be supported by that one ambulance). However, to propose a solution that is impossible for the resources at hand (which is what Areivim is attempting to do) is completely irresponsible -- ESPECIALLY when you are charging people for the privilege of being covered.

"If the ambulance was parked in Crown Heights, and he got a call that somebody was severely injured in Boro Park, wouldn't you say that he should run and try to save this life, or would you say, that we must wait until somebody in Crown Heights
needs us?"

That's a poor example, because there are alternatives for the person in Boro Park -- like calling 911 -- until Hatzoloh is able to grow as an organization and cover other areas.

"if we stop making Chashbonos,"

Utter nonsense. HKBH tells us that we must do hishtadlus. He does not tell us "throw up any plan and the heck with whether or not it actually works."

The Wolf ”

“ "because if it were yours, it would stay yours"..wow! How you judge people
without knowing the entire story! We are honest tax paying people who worked
hard all our life. We have relatives abroad, who told us that it was a good
way to invest a few dollars for the children's future, as the returns were
supposed to be great..
We didn't invest a "king's randsom" as we were never wealthy,
I'm not obliged to tell you how much, but I assure you it sure
was a lot less than you think.and the money was 100% kosher.
You're obviously of the few lucky ones that never lost money in their life,
you you can't put yourself in the shoes of others.
Hashem is the one who makes people make money and lose money,
and everything has its Cheshbon.
I tell you again, Life Insurance is not 100% garuanteed (read the fine
lines) banks aren't secure, nor is the gov't secure. Who would have
believed a few years ago, what the economy in the mighty USA
would look like in 2010. One attack on the Twin Towers sent the
economy off balance.
Its nice to know that somebody like you, knows Hashem's Chashbonos,
and never suffered a loss in his life.
Be Dan Lkaf Zchus and have faith in Hashem. ”

“ "If an unpredicted amount of people died in one year, Life Insurance would not be able to meet their obligations"

Maybe -- but the odds of so many people dying at once are extremely remote. That's why the system is considered sound.

"same with the banks, if every person would decide to withdraw their money in one week, the banks would declare bankrupcy"

Again true, but again, the same rule applies -- the odds against it are very remote -- that's WHY the banking system is set up the way it is. And if it comes to pass that there are runs on banks, then we have much bigger problems then whether Arievim is viable or not.

"Areivim is a good and solid investment, and nobody can beat that. ”

Not if it can't deliver the funds it promises.

Also, I'm left to question how much it qualifies as gemilus chasadim if you have to pay in to get benefits. NO OTHER CHARITY that I can think of requires you to pay in to get benefits. Tomchei Shabbos, Bikur Cholilm, Hatzoloh, Misaskim, et al -- all pay or provide services REGARDLESS of whether you've paid in in the past. THAT'S true tzedaka and gemilas chasadim.

The Wolf ”

“ Insurance companies hold RBC (Risk Based Capital) to cover potential adverse results
Insurance companies pay into a guarantee fund to ensure that policyholders get paid even if the company fails
Insurance companies are built to last

Areivim is completely unprepared to manage risk ”

“ There is no risk to manage. ”

“ There is no risk to manage. ”

“ There is no risk to manage. ”

“ There is the clear risk that the number of claimants (yesomim) asking for $100K will exceed the required member contributions. If / when that happens, there is no "Plan B", other than reducing the average payout, or disqualifying some of the yesomim that might be relying upon this program. ”

“ Who can take such responsibility? Funny you should ask. Why, clearly, Rabbi Horowitz can. The only thing shocking is how sad it is that Rabboim with real guts and broad shoulders are in such short supply. ”