New York – I was dancing the night away, celebrating a most joyous occasion. People were jumping along with joy and singing to the music. It was a family members wedding, and it was going great, without a single glitch. Then I spotted my uncle talking to the photographer, with a frown on his face. They were gesturing wildly, at their watches and shaking their heads.
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Are you confused? Let me fill you in.
With about an hour to go until the end of the wedding, the photographer we hired and already paid, stated that his time was up. The band was still playing, the dessert was just being served and everyone was still dancing; the party was in full swing. “My time is up, and that’s what you paid me for. If you want me to stay, you will have to pay me more money” said the photographer, threatening to leave.
Are you still confused? Allow me to clarify:
When we hired the photographer he guided us on how many photographers and videographers we needed and how long we needed them for to capture the wonderful moments of this grand evening. The photographer took advantage of his position by making us believe we only needed the staff for X amount of hours, when in fact we needed them for more. I am not against paying the staff overtime if a wedding goes way beyond it’s normal time. However if the photographers are telling people they need less time than they actually require, or offering to come early in order to be able to charge more for “staying late”, then there is something very wrong here.
Sadly, he is not alone. After speaking with numerous people, I discovered that this sick practice is quite common in our community as well as other Frum communities. It is a huge problem, and it needs to be addressed promptly. These photographers attack when people are at their most vulnerable, forcing them to cash out big amounts of money in addition to the named price they negotiated beforehand. It is such a betrayal, for fellow Jews to do this to one another.
I am hereby calling to all the Frum photographers out there: this has to stop immediately. It is wrong in so many ways, legally and Halochacally, morally and ethically. Being a professional photographer allows you to know exactly how weddings work, how long they usually go on for and what kind of hiccups can happen. You know that they run late sometimes. So please don’t negotiate a price for a time-period when you know that weddings last more than that time. Don’t go extorting money from families at their Simcha, it is simply stealing and it is disgusting.
May G’D bless us with the ability and the wisdom to choose the right paths and make the right decisions.
Rabbi Hanoch Hecht is the director of Chabad of Dutchess County and the spiritual leader of the Rhinebeck Jewish Center in Rhinebeck, NY. He is the son of Rabbi Shea Hecht and the Grandson of the late Rabbi Jacob J Hecht.
they are a band of extortionist.the come way earlier then the r supposed to then charge overtime etc..
Wow, I was unaware of this problem… may Hakadosh Barchu give us all an increased measure of wisdom and righteousness to deal with these kinds of issues.
Dear Rabbi Hecht:
A photographer is a professional like any other professional. They work for a parnassah (unlike many people wo attend this simchos). When you sign a contract for a simca (and I have done several) the contract always says how many hours of the photograper’s time are included. If you want do it on the cheap, than you can simply say that you are covering 3 or 4 hours of his/her time or that he/she may leave by 11:00 PM. As a rav, you have obviously been to dozens of simchas and know that each affair is different. If you think the simcha may run late, and want the flexibility to keep the photographer later than the agreed time, than the contract should specifically state what the rate will be for each hour “overtime”. Again, its the baal simcha’s responsibility to provide in the contract what they want. If they don’t do their homework or change their mind at th 11th hour, its their problem and the photographer is entirely within his/her rights to leave or ask for payment for the overtime. Again, the photographer typically shows up hours BEFORE the simcha starts to get set up and may have already done another simcha that afternoon so he may want to leave.
Gee, let me see if I get this straight.
Are you talking about people who spend enormous amounts of money for a one night affair to impress someone and go into major debt? Well, what the heck another few hundred.
Or maybe the cheaper weddings where there isn’t even a video half the time and those weddings are usually smaller more simchadic and end on time anyway.
Don’t you get it. You pointed out only a small nekudah.
The issue of weddings start with overpriced gowns for 2 year old nieces elaborate aufrufs and gala sheva brachoses besides for fancy weddings that are over the top.
This causes terrible pressure and jealousy.
Oh, and then the couple goes to kollel. Give them the money to learn instead.
Set a schedule for payment, never 100% in advance even for a discount, it ends up costing more
Sore point.
I am an event co-ordinator. I am often hired to run a wedding. Everyone wants their simcha to run on time. BUT:
I have rarely had a kallah ready on time. I have rarely had families ready for their photographs and I have very often had chosson/kallah abuse the time alloted for the yichud room/pictures. And after all is said and done – everyone expects all the service people to stay an additional 2 hours because everyone was late getting there/dressing/travelling/makeup etc. SImcha time is just that – a time for simcha and abusing the service people is unfair. Yet everyone does and expects the service people to understand. That photographer has probably already put in over 8 or 10 or even 12 hours if not more. If you were late why should you not pay for it? At a recent simcha one of the photographers was so thrilled that the kallah was on time and that the wedding ran so efficiently that he gave the chosson/kallah three 11 x 14 portraits just for being on time and he said he would offer that to any other chosson/kallah!
Fair is fair. And abusing the system doesn’t make it right.
Whatever………
Im not a photographer, but just because your chupa started an hour late, and the rav that was gonna come and dance with the chosen is late, and you decided you want 300 more pictures so the first dance starts late and the second dance lasted 2 hours more than you thought, is nobody’s problem.
I think people expect too much.
You should be smart enough when you hire a photographer or a band or a hall, you have your time of when you think you will need them, and negotiate a price in advance if it goes past that..
Dont negotiate a price??? WHY??
You hired a photographer till 12, why should he stay till 1 for free????????
IF YOU KNOW THAT THE SIMCHAS RUN LATE HIRE THEM FOR LONGER…
Articles like this sort of anger me, what a selfish train of thought.
Thanks for the yichus…but I’m not sure how it effects the price.
Still not sure sure who your wife is, where your brothers live, and who you great-grandfather was.
This is an old age problem and I have been extorted by photographers on MANY occassions during and after a simcha. On one particular simcha we FLEW the photographer to the wedding overseas – covered all his expenses including airline, hotel, etc. and yes he walked up to us towards the end and threatened to quit unless we paid him more money.
3 years later we still dont have pictures becuase he wanted an extortinate amount extra that we would and could not pay. $2,000 more, and for the record this IS A brooklyn photographer
This was a surprisingly harsh attack. The point could have been made differently as to how to negotiate a clear contract to avoid misunderstandings. Photographers and others should not be expected to stay late if the event runs late without a guarantee of extra payment. They have already spent hours on their feet and have worked a long day. Also, I’m not sure I understand the obsession with having every second photographed and videotaped, especially when many of the guests are already taking pictures. There is so much money wasted at these gala events.
I only have pictures and video till after the first dance. Did i mention that we paid for their flights and hotel.
The real busha here is this rav’s assumptions that the photograher has any obligation to work overtime without compensation. If the Kallah cannot be ready on time, its HER problem; if zeide or the rebbe gets caught in traffic on the way to the simcha hall, start without them but do not expect professionals who you hired for a set time to simply stand around and then work late at no charge. If you want them to work however late the simcha goes, then its your responsibility to include that in the contract. If not, its the chosson/kalah’s and family’s tough luck and will teach them the importance of thinging through these details in advance.
THAT’S Y “TKUNOS” ARE MADE FOR!
sign in and enjoy your simcha for years to come!
If you can’t pay for the extra hour, you can’t afford the photographer.
It is very unusual for people to be spending their last dollar (or even worse, borrowed dollar or tzedakah dollar) on something as extravagent as a proffesional photographer.
I know people who are not frum and they plan their wedding for two years and have evey color of what everyone is going to wear worked out and the go with a cheaper photographer, band, caterer, etc. because that is what they can afford.
Whenever you buy something that is out of your leage you will always be disappointed. When you are in a hotel they have service charges, drink charges, etc. etc.
We musg wake up and tone down the level of the weddings. It sets up the couple on the wrong path and cost money and gezunt,
Too bad you are not a chosid of reb aron of Satmar, he stopped these nonsense not only in photoghraphy but in Music, flowers, minimum’s etc, etc, a long time ago, by Implementing the “Chasuna Takanos”
I do many events in NY and I never had a problem. Since I do many events photographers and videographers want my business so they offer me fair prices. I always ask them in advance, how much they would charge me per hour of ‘overtime’.
One of my favorite videographers (and he recommended some good photographers over the years) is Benny Marvin in Flatbush. (917-701-0493) He does a great job and is always on time and reliable.
the question is not an hour here or there. its the point is that they have u over the barral & extort. look at the price they are charging to begin with before extorting at the end and again extorting with proofs etc. etc..of course they are entiteled to parnassa plus plus but everything has limits. (besides geniva gezailah, oinah, ribis , shtusa more)do the math , photographars x hours – expenses. for what they rip u off they sould take pictures a whole sheva brochos not haggle on a half hour over time.
Rabbi Hect:
With all due respect …you are way off base!
There is a contract! a Shtar! if there is any questions as to what the shtar says they should be asked before signing! Also when shopping for anything, don’t normal people ask for references, advise… etc…
And unless a person just was born the night before he signed the agreement, doesn’t he know roughly, how long a wedding takes?? and unless he is a legal “shoyta” in which case the shtar is probably worthless, & if after doing his “due diligence” he signs the aggreement he should live by it.
If after all that there is still a disagreement there are bais din’s and if dealing with a non jew courts.
I guess the phrase say’s it best: “Caveat Emptor” “Buyer Beware!”
Chanochi,
Take some friendly advice from a cousin: Klal Yisroel has bigger and more serious problems to deal with.
Have no fear, help is on the way. With the advent of Takuna weddings, the demand for full fledged photography at weddings will decrease. That means that consumers will be able to negotiate better. It seems that the photography is the one part of a wedding that creates the most amount of anguish to the baal simcha. The photographer holds you hostage because you are always aglfraid that he won’t deliver. They demand payment in full by the wedding then take their merry time in delivering the pictures. and if they didn’t come out good you are otta luck. it also always comes out costing twice the base price.
Why should the photographer work for free? I’m also a professional who bills by the hour and I know full well that MANY members of our community expect me to do high-level professional work without any sort of compensation whatsoever. Sorry, but when I show up early to something for my client, it’s NOT for the purpose of billing the client extra. It’s for the purpose of preparing and being ready ON TIME so my client doesn’t have to wait for me. I have better things to do than show up early to something just for the purpose of charging more money. If something goes longer than expected, I should not have to start working for free. Nowhere in the Torah or in secular law is there a right to free wedding photography. If anything, both the Torah AND secular law both require one to pay his employees and contractors. To all the people who agree with this article: open up the Shulchan Oruch and also do some research into secular law. Payment for professional overtime is NOT extortion. It’s required both by Halacha and under American civil jurisprudence under a concept called quantum meruit.
This is a known problem but the root of it is YOU. The people hiring the photographer are price shopping and chopping until its almost not worth going to work. Everyone needs albums and videos and grandparents need it too but they don’t want to pay. So since every other photog does it, either join them or close up.
Rabbi, please clarify how much money a photog is entitled to charge for his time and expertise? Is it 100 per hour? 50 per hour? What does a camera cost? What do flashes and lenses and strobes cost? What does an assistant get paid for the night? 100 per night? So figure it out and then see if 3000 is accurate for wedding. Perrhaps you should hire a pro for portraits and an amateur for dancing?
rabbi Hect,
How dare you launch such a general attack on frum photographers?
Even if your bad experience can fully be blamed on a crooked extorting photographer, does that call for a “kol koreh” against photographers?
“I am hereby calling to all the Frum photographers out there: this has to stop immediately.”
who the heck are you?
like any other service you hire, you should do your homework. weddings DON’T all end at the same time ( a rov should know this) and there is no way that a photographer can tell You.
even then, your contract should already say how much it will cost you for every overtime hour.
it is up to you to figure out (with the help of your wedding planer, if you have one, or the chassene hall, or your friends who already made weddings) when you’ll be done: don’t like that your photgrapher will be gone at 11:00? find a different one!
This also holds true for the orchestra, for some caterers, and some wedding halls.
The photographer in the story from #10 seems very unscrupulous ($2,000 more for overtime?), but if everything, including overtime, is in writing, then there should be no panics and only good will all around.
Why are people paying to fly in photographers and put them up in a hotel overnight? What a waste of money. In any town or city in the world you can hire a local wedding photographer. Guess what, you can even hire a non-jew. You think only jews know how to take wedding pictures?
Unfortunately, this is a common practice among wedding photographers. After having made several weddings I thought that I knew how to handle these guys. However, the photographer outsmarted me and ran up to my wife when she was in the middle of something at the wedding and got her OK for overtime, she being to busy to really pay attention.
When the bill came and we protested, the photographer (as usual) held the pictures hostage.
If you read this (our former family friend – the photographer), shame on you for taking advantage of the situation and bumping the bill hundreds of dollars.
At my simcha, a gentile was hired. I remember that he was also rushing me to take photos, as he seemed to be in a hurry. I didn’t appreciate him standing over me, during the hora, as he wanted to interrupt, and take additional photos. Sometimes, it is difficult to enjoy simchas, with these intrusive photographers. Also, that persons’ photos were not the greatest. In addition to the custom of photographers overcharging, what about the custom of meshulachs showing up at weddings and other simchas, and coming right up to the dinner table, and bothering people for money? Is that acting in a mentchlekeit manner? If the meshulachs want to wait outside in the lobby, and approach people, that is one thing. However, to aggressively bother guests while they are seated at the dinner table, is the height of chutzpadick.
significant a contract, try to write it as clear & plainly as possible, & take into account that NEARLY “ALL” chasunas go OT, so confirm BEFOREHAND what the OT cost will be.
shame on them if they do it intentionally.
This is the same rav who does his torah shiiurrim in 6 minute segements but he has the chutzpah to ask the photographers to work for hours extra for free. What a joke.
The photographer that we unfortunately used chose not to inform us that the hall we used put the microphone in the center of the chupa unless requested to move it. Therefore all of the “important” pictures, the chosson placing the ring on the kallah’s finger, transfer of the kesubah are blocked by the microphone. After the fact the photographer told us that it was our fault for not having them move the microphone. My points to the photographer were 1. Say something BEFORE when it was relevant or 2. If the microphone is in the middle, move the photographer to take the pictures at an angle. Many years later he still owes us the videos for the parents and he owes us $100. We received the finished album around our eighth anniversary and NEVER look at. The only pictures that we look at are the ones that our friends took.
His complaint is that he hired a proffesional photogragher, this professional only recomended X amount of hours and now want sovertime. His complaint is that the photographer should have been upfront about it not when he has no choice.
i work for a very respected photographer in the boro park, flatbush, williamsburg communities and i can tell you that it s very hard to estimate exactly when a wedding will end. at the photographer that i work for before he goes to any wedding a contract must be signed where in there it states clearly that the package price is for 6 hours of photography & how much overtime will cost if the need arises. he starts 2 hours before the kabolas ponim to photograph the kalleh her family & the choson, how many times he is ready & the kalleh shows up hours late& still demands the full 2 hrs of her photography time & then when everything runs off schedule they demand the photographer stay on because technically he started 2 hrs later even though it was the kalleh fault & when they dont want to pay the overtime its easy to blame the photographer then the bride.
This case surprises me because photographers depend on word of mouth to drum up business. It doesn’t pay in the long run to leave a trail of unhappy customers and this sure sounds like a recipe for changing careers.
Photographers, like any service provider, have a right to recoup their costs plus a profit, which obviously includes covering expenses, like employees. They also have a right, if not a responsibility, to operate under the terms of a signed contract.
But the baal hasimcha also contracts with catering hall (and the caterer) stipulating how long the affair can last. Some halls rent the same room multiple times a day and schedule the end of one affair with enough time to prepare for the next one. So, the baal hasimcha must know ahead of time how many hours he is allocated for his affair. How could a miscalculation with the photographer have occured?
Something doesn’t add up (no pun intended).
As a corporate lawyer, I read all of these comments and have only one thing to say.
As children, in high school, or somewhere, adults should have learned the concept of a CONTRACT. In the contract would be specified what the cost of the photographer is for a base time (say, 3 or 4 hours), and what the rate per hour of overtime would be. That’s it. That’s all.
And if there is no such specification for overtime charges, then the photographer can stop when he has completed his duties under the contract at the specified time. If the contract specifies that he has to do a whole bunch of things, and he was not able to them all because of the family’s fault, that does not mean he has to stick around 1, 2 ,3 or whatever number of hours for free to do them. At that point, he can negotiate for extra hours. Are you annoyed, crying, accusing others of being bad Jews because YOU failed to make sure that there was an overtime rate in the contract? Grow up.
Just like when you bring a car in to be fixed, the mechanic quotes you an amount, and it will be ready in 3 days, or, alternatively you tell him you want it done NOW, so he has to drop all else, there will be a different rate, so here.
I was at the most beautiful wedding hall in Monsey last week where there were in built cameras situated at the best vantage points throughout the hall. And controlled by one operator . Its about time that we stopped this ludicrous spending for flowers photographer’s music etc , do the machatonim really think that this will add to the happiness of the young couple . As to the music its getting sicker and sicker we might as well be going to a goyishe club the way the so called frum singers gyrate and behave . Rabbosai lets pls all wake up …..
Hurray for the Takones wedding halls .
One final point. If a photographer, based on his experience, knows that a typical wedding as described to him will take 4 hours, he should not knowingly put a 2 hour time limit, even if the person with whom he’s negotiating is a fool. However, if he puts in 4 hours, specifies an additional rate of $xx per hour for each hour or pro-rata portion of that if it takes longer, he has done NOTHING WRONG, from an American law or a Jewish law perspective, or even from a moral perspective.
I think what the rabbi is saying is, hanmer out all the details before the wedding. Period.
I really don’t understand the hysteria if you don’t have pictures of every minute of the wedding. Big deal.
Isn’t it great to have 1 hour of simchas choson vekalah without interuption of the photographer
Smile.
I B’H made a few chasunas
1. photographers control the simcha
2. who needs every smile and krechtz
3.we left a space for the choson and kallah and digitally put them in after
4.if we start making chasunas on erev shabbos like they used to make in the good old days
no pictures
no music
no flowers
no headaches
no debt to cover
we just fall into this trap of Luksus and pay for it
the only one who remembers the fancy weddings
are… the Caterer, the mechutonim who have to pay and the guy who has a stomach problem after the chasunah
To #46 – Yiddishe Geld:
I too was a most beautiful wedding in Monsey last week. The chupa was outside in the Rebbe’s courtyard and there was no photographer to block any guest’s view.
Ditto for the wedding. No cameras, personal or professional, were sighted.
No stopping like mimes in the middle of a joyous dance to say ‘cheese.’ No waiting for the Chossen and Kalla to finish with their myriad of pictures. And, no, there were no mounted cameras anywhere.
Needless to say, all family members – as well as their guests – were super relaxed.
ALL pictures were taken at home before and after the wedding by a photographer hired for this purpose.
For you see the Vizhnitzer Rebbe has a longstanding tradition of rewarding his followers for agreeing to a wedding celebration sans picture-taking (which he adamantly disapproves of): the Kalla receives the honor of a mitzva tance with the Rebbe.
Spirituality reigned supreme, from the start to the finish.
A win-win “contract” for everyone!
We are in the midst of a raging Shidduch Crisis and the writer chose to “taunt” the community with a piece on Wedding Photographers. How insensitive!
I strenuously disagree with the author. When YOU make a simcha YOU have decided what YOUR budget is and when you hire a photographer or any other contractor for the wedding YOU are telling them what budget YOU wish to keep. Unfortunately at YOUR simcha YOU forget to BUDGET your time especially (unfortunately) at a Chabad wedding. Guests rarely arrive on time and therefore nothing ends on time. But lets start at the beginning let say its not a Chabad wedding. When the photographer says that the wedding party needs to be ready at a certain time, take that seriously. In addition when the kaballas panim is set for a certain time and chupah is set at a certain time, don’t blame the photographer if the last dance goes overtime it the badeken and the chupa was late. Furthermore, if you don’t give him a list of photos before the chasana and just keep telling him to take more and more and more and don’t budget your time or allow him to watch the clock, don’t blame him later. If you were tutoring a child or your child was babysitting or offering any other service or type of work where they were getting paid at an hourly wage, you would expect them to get paid more for more time.
I work in a catering company that works secular and gentile weddings and parties. I have never seen this happen. ever.
just for the record….the author of this article is not the Rav , Community activist
or head of NCFJE…..he is the son of Rabbi Shea Hecht.
I made a simcha and asked the photographer to come a certain time. I don’t have to tell you what it means to get a family with little children ready for any certain time. Mid-day the photographer called me if I am sure I will be running on time, I told him Iy”h. I got to the hall at the desiganated time and found him in the midst of taking portraits for a family. He asked me to be so kind and wait a couple of minutes. 25 minutes later (after asking him a couple of times to start with our family already) he states that he was just finishing up, asking me to let him take a couple more shots. I might have been what some would call nasty, but I asked him to please let them wait until he is finished with my family and if he has time before my guest arrive he can continue with them. (do you know he didn’t credit me for the time he worked with them)and this is an ehriliche yid!! Forget about the kids becoming roudy just standing and waiting, forget about him still taking portraits when my guests were arriving.
For some reason when you hire someone for a job, todays day the feel they are doing you the biggest favor by coming to work for you.
My photographer wanted $100 for a cd of my pictures, after paying hundreds of dollars for the photography, albums for ourselves and parents/in laws. I just wanted to have the pictures to be able to photoshop them (cuz he did such a lousy job and I had to remove some objects from the pictures!)
I dont think photographers at simchas should bill by the hour! A simcha does not run like that. It is almost impossible to coordinate a simcha and expect things to run smoothly on time. But the baal simcha is spending so much on food, the hall, music and other expenses. There has to be a reasonable amount to spend on each thing,including photography. Nobody is arguing that the photographer should not be paid. And certainly the photographer can stipulate he wants to leave by 12:00 or 1:00 am. But to bill by the hour is not fair either. And many times the photographer comes on time but basically has very little to do for a couple of hours so he is being paid for doing nothing much until things get moving. I think photographers should make a deal based on a lump sum and the expected hours he should be there (ie. from 2:00 to 12:00 such and such amount, from 4:00 to 12:00 such and such). Or just a lump sum for the photography of the event regardless of the hours, but with a limit as to how late the photographer stays or how early he arrives. Those things can be worked out fairly and should be.
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. My partner and I are passionate about our photography and always deal with the customers professionally and ethically, while striving to exceed their expectations. Our contracts are clear and many times we agree to “stay until the party is over”. Regardless of when an event begins, we get there 30 minutes early to get set up. That is on our time. There are some bad apples, of course, but there are plenty of good ones out there, too! Hope you have better success in the future.
since everyone who ever will hire a photographer is reading this:
as has been said many times, make a contract, and READ IT
“pro Photographer” said well: 6 hours is never enough, but it just minimum amount of hours for which photographer will take the job-it’s not worth loading the car
As a Photographer, i have been kept for overtime, i have been sent home after half a dance (last week!!), i have been asked to include siblings who came halfway through the simcha in family photos (many times), which will not look nearly as good as the ones done with the lights set for portraits
I notice a lot of ppl who think they are “rebbish” or chassidish feel that it’s below them to smile in family photos. so i have ppl calling me crying “my father’s eyes are closed in all the photos!!”
I had a lady nine months pregnant ask me to make her look skinnier in a family photo
Photoshop is not included!! you think cause your kid knows a little photo editing he wants to do all 500 photos? you hired me for 6 hours, not all week!
brush your teeth b4 the simcha!
women! dont wear white under black please, the flashes light it up!
I want you to be happy and like me! I luv customers who smile when they pay.