Liverpool, UK - Girl Rejected from Jewish School for Failure to Prove Family's Shul Attendance |
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News Source: The Jewish Chronicle
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King David school in Childwall, Liverpool Liverpool, UK - A Jewish girl has been denied a place at King David High School in Liverpool because her family could not meet the new admissions criteria to prove her level of religious practice. The place went to a non-Jewish girl.
The Orthodox school was forced to reject a place for Kayleigh Chapple, even though her mother, uncle and aunt were former pupils.
Her family could not prove their synagogue attendance or the level of Jewish education now required to gain such a place, following the Court of Appeal’s landmark ruling against JFS last July. It is the first case to give substance to fears that the JFS ruling would effectively exclude Jewish children from non-observant homes.
Kayleigh’s mother, Dawn Chapple, who lives with a non-Jewish husband in Huyton, outside Liverpool’s Jewish community, said her daughter was “absolutely devastated…She loves the Jewish lessons she’s been having, she loves going to shul. She has even asked about having a batmitzvah.”
The new admission criteria ask for proof of synagogue attendances 12 months before the pupil’s application. The rules further stipulate proof of formal Jewish education.
Last week, Liverpool City Council’s Independent Education Appeal Panel rejected Mrs Chapple’s plea to consider her documented synagogue attendance in 2007 and 2008 and five months of Jewish tutoring which she has arranged since January.
King David, an Orthodox Jewish school which also accepts non-Jewish children, confirmed that Kayleigh is the only Jewish applicant to be refused a place among just nine Jewish children in its September intake of 90 this year.
Last year Kayleigh applied to King David under the previously acceptable category as a halachically recognised Jew. Under King David’s original admissions policy, proof of Kayleigh’s Jewish descent would have given her a priority place.
But in its JFS ruling last year, the Court of Appeal ordered Jewish schools to implement practice-based admission policies. Mrs Chapple claims that it made it “impossible” to gain the evidence she required after King David had informed her about the admission changes in December, long after the High Holy Days, when attendance at synagogue would have given Kayleigh points under the new system. The school has admitted that she received notice so late because she was the only applicant from a non-Jewish primary school.
Mrs Chapple says the JFS ruling has denied her daughter a place - “All because that guy [who challenged the JFS admissions policy] married a non-Jewish woman who converted Reform. But I’m 100 per cent an Orthodox Jew. He’s won a place for his son, that my daughter can’t have.”
She added: “I think it’s disgusting that non-Jewish children have more rights on our own school more than a Jewish child.”
Mrs Chapple is now seeking legal advice on the decision to rule against Kayleigh. She said: “I want her to have a Jewish education. I’ve paid £500 for her to learn about Judaism, proper lessons with a teacher. My daughter’s already been called a Jew-bag and been racially abused in her local school twice, because I’ve never hidden the fact that she’s Jewish.”
King David head Brigid Smith, who is a governor and sits on the school’s admissions panel, said King David could only follow the criteria it had been advised to accept following the JFS Appeal Court ruling, while any leeway in applying these new rules rested with the local authority appeals’ committee.
The chair of King David governors, Max Steinberg, said the school had “to conduct itself properly. Otherwise we get into all sorts of questions and issues. If there are criteria that are not applied then you can see that we would be open to criticism of that.”
But the school recognised its new rules could exclude Jewish children.
Lauren Lesin-Davis, who chairs the education group that decides King David’s admission policy, said work had already begun on revamping its policy before the Chapple case came to light. She revealed that its 2011 admission criteria, which have been passed by its governors, will allow for Jewish volunteering and cultural activities to earn points in their religious practice test.
She said: “I don’t want to miss out on having Jewish people who can’t attend the school just because they don’t go to shul ‘X’ times a year.”
Mrs Chapple is also angry with Liverpool’s synagogues which she says did not respond to her enquiries to join them.
But Rabbi Lionel Cofnas, senior minister at Childwall Synagogue, said that while Orthodox synagogues in Liverpool would not allow her membership because she married out, he would make her feel welcome at synagogue services.
He said: “Please let her ring me and I would try to sort this out for her. She can’t be a member, that’s one thing, but she is quite entitle to come to shul.”
Rabbi Cofnas suggested Mrs Chapple’s schools admissions problem is related primarily to the introduction of a practice-based test for pupil entry.
He said: “I think the truth of the matter is that she has a genuine criticism of the rules. The rules that have been employed, instead of rules we would have wished, the tradition method of entry, have proved to be problematic.”
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Read Comments (62) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 11, 2010 at 09:35 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Why is an orthodox school accepting non-jews?
2
Jun 11, 2010 at 09:41 AM Ex-Brit Says:Report as Inappropriate
It was inevitable. Sooner or later this issue was going to come up. Admittance to a Jewish school should be based on Halacha, not PC rulings. So a halachically Jewish child loses out to a goy who goes to "Shul." The Chief Rabbi warned this would happen. Only a reversal of the law will change this & I don't think it's going to happen. The damage has been done.
For the record, even though KD accepts goyishe children, it is run on orthodox lines: it seems an oxymoron, but it actually isn't. All instruction follows Shulchan Aruch.
Mrs, Chapple needs to make some serious choices here. She needs to move to a Jewish neighborhood & take her daughter to Shul IF she wants to get her in to this school. It's not unheard of to play the "Postcode Game"; people have been moving house in the UK to live in a district where the local health authority will allow expensive cancer drugs to be prescribed. So she has to do the same thing.
3
Jun 11, 2010 at 09:47 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
According to halacha one may not teach Torah to non-Jews.
4
Jun 11, 2010 at 09:43 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Wow, I've heard of people who are mechalel Shabbos and eat treif and claim they're orthodox, but this is the first time I've heard of someone who's married to a goy and claims she's orthodox.
5
Jun 11, 2010 at 09:57 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Why is an orthodox school accepting non-jews? ”
Because when you accept government money you have to open the school to everyone. The pro-voucher people need to remember that.
6
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:00 AM happy Says:Report as Inappropriate
so a goy dos meet the admisson criteria.
7
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:09 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Wow, I've heard of people who are mechalel Shabbos and eat treif and claim they're orthodox, but this is the first time I've heard of someone who's married to a goy and claims she's orthodox. ”
She probably said or meant Jewish as defined by Orthodox standards.
8
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:12 AM Authentic Londoner. Says:Report as Inappropriate
The law in the UK is clear. A school can no more restrict admission to Jews than a golf club can restrict membership to non-Jews. It matters not whether the school (or club) is privately or publicly funded. The school can however require children to have engaged in a particular level of Jewish practice (such as attending shul) just as a golf club may require members to have reached a particular handicap before they are allowed as members.
This of course completely contradicts halacha. However as is not suprising, the UK courts see their role as applying UK law and not Halacha.
9
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:15 AM Stamford Hilly Billy Says:Report as Inappropriate
When she says she is orthodox - she probably doesn`t mean it in the conventional sense that the frum world understand, how could she? she married out.
What she probably means is that like many Jews in the UK that even though she is not frum and may not keep many mitzvos, she ascribes to the orthodox tradition and accepts that it is the real Judaism and not reform or any other new-fangled religions that claim to be Judaism. Practically speaking this means that if she goes to shul (maybe 3 times a year) she will go to an orthodox shul and will contact an orthodox rabbi if she needs the services of a rabbi.
Another point that this raises is that many provinical Jewish communities in the UK are shrinking and whilst they intially catered exculsively to the Jewish community because of the way that they are funded by the government they have to accept goyim to fill the places that they have. Unfortuantely we see here the adverse affects of the JFS ruling.
Also whilst I understand why the Shul's won't let her join, it seems a travesty if the allow her and her children but not her husband to join they may be mekarev her and more importantly her children, just a thought. Plus also without joining she is unlikely to have a jewish burial when the time comes, nebach
10
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:16 AM Gefilte Fish Says:Report as Inappropriate
This whole story smells and stinks... There must be more to this story.. It shows though that 'jews' don't get it.. This religion is a cult and a big joke. It is clearly the fault of the 33 concert ban 'rabbis' and other 'rabbis' who are making tomfoolery of this. Time to oust them all!
11
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I think this is disgusting!! Whoever runs this school should be ashamed of himself and I hope he can sleep at night. He has just thrown a jewish girl to the goyim and he does not even care -- with no second thought. Would he have done that to his own daughter?? Of course not!! He should have pretended that this was his daughter!! He just did not care!! That is what is wrong with some of today's rabbis. They JUST DO NOT CARE!!!!
12
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:26 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Our "heimishe "mosdos do it too. they dont except kids in school cheder camp etc someone someday after 120 will answer to hashem no wonder we have so many kids going off the derech may hashem avenge their blood and protext out kids
13
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:27 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
'But I'm 100% an Orthodox Jew' that has to be the line of the week. She married to goy, and she's transgressing the biggest aveiros and she says she's an Orthodox Jew. How sad......
14
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:31 AM Moshe Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ According to halacha one may not teach Torah to non-Jews. ”
As with so many other Talmudic dicta, the passage about not teaching Torah to non-Jews is repeated endlessly - -even though there are plenty of other statements by the rabbomin that don't agree with this. What about sheva mitzva b'nai Noach? Isn't that part of Torah? What about someone who wants to convert? He has to learn Torah for a long time while he's still non-Jewish in order to become a ger. How are we Yidden supposed to accomplish our mission of spreading knowledge of Hashem and His Torah if we have a blanket prohibition of not teaching Torah to non-Jews? Shem and Ever weren't Jews, but they ran the first yeshiva. Obviously they knew Torah.
15
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:33 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Why is an orthodox school accepting non-jews? ”
because its government paid for and the child in question's mother did convert reformed conversion but governement doesnt care
16
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:46 AM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Why is an orthodox school accepting non-jews? ”
Why not? So long as all Jewish applicants can get in (which was the case until the court forced the new rules on them), why should they remain empty rather than give the extra places to non-Jews? And of course it's racist and illegal to do so. If halacha required excluding non-Jews, then the law would of course be irrelevant, and the school would be required to defy the law; but since there doesn't seem to be any such halachic requirement, and it would be impossible to discriminate without getting caught, why fight it? It's not as if there are that many non-Jews who davka want to attend Jewish schools.
17
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:48 AM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Because when you accept government money you have to open the school to everyone. The pro-voucher people need to remember that. ”
Again with your falsehoods. Stop telling lies. You know very well that this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with government money. The same law applies to King David and to the Belzer cheder.
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Jun 11, 2010 at 10:51 AM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ so a goy dos meet the admisson criteria. ”
No, where did you get that idea? Of course the goyim didn't meet the criteria. But after all children who did meet them were admitted, all other children had to be admitted on an equal footing. No preference could be given to one non-qualifying child over another. And so the Jewish child lost out to a goy.
19
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:55 AM Charlie Hall Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Why is an orthodox school accepting non-jews? ”
Because it takes money from the government. The same situation exists in Ireland and Spain. If we ever get vouchers in the US in a big way, Jewish schools here will have to accept non-Jewish students.
20
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:56 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I think this is disgusting!! Whoever runs this school should be ashamed of himself and I hope he can sleep at night. He has just thrown a jewish girl to the goyim and he does not even care -- with no second thought. Would he have done that to his own daughter?? Of course not!! He should have pretended that this was his daughter!! He just did not care!! That is what is wrong with some of today's rabbis. They JUST DO NOT CARE!!!! ”
are you aquinted with these halachas. weare not guided with what every tom and dick or harry feels as opposed to to other movements
21
Jun 11, 2010 at 10:58 AM Charlie Hall Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ As with so many other Talmudic dicta, the passage about not teaching Torah to non-Jews is repeated endlessly - -even though there are plenty of other statements by the rabbomin that don't agree with this. What about sheva mitzva b'nai Noach? Isn't that part of Torah? What about someone who wants to convert? He has to learn Torah for a long time while he's still non-Jewish in order to become a ger. How are we Yidden supposed to accomplish our mission of spreading knowledge of Hashem and His Torah if we have a blanket prohibition of not teaching Torah to non-Jews? Shem and Ever weren't Jews, but they ran the first yeshiva. Obviously they knew Torah. ”
Indeed the degree to which Torah can be taught to non-Jews is a machloket poskim.
One consideration is that non-Jews are learning Torah anyway. I've personally met Christian ministers who use Rashi's Tanakh commentaries to prepare their Sunday sermons!
22
Jun 11, 2010 at 11:02 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I think this is disgusting!! Whoever runs this school should be ashamed of himself and I hope he can sleep at night. He has just thrown a jewish girl to the goyim and he does not even care -- with no second thought. Would he have done that to his own daughter?? Of course not!! He should have pretended that this was his daughter!! He just did not care!! That is what is wrong with some of today's rabbis. They JUST DO NOT CARE!!!! ”
the school will be shut down if they don't follow the new law. What do you want them to do??
23
Jun 11, 2010 at 11:15 AM ex-Brit Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Again with your falsehoods. Stop telling lies. You know very well that this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with government money. The same law applies to King David and to the Belzer cheder. ”
Actually, Milhouse, this time YOU are wrong. IF a school accepts govt money (for secular education only) they have to abide by this ruling. Belz cheder doesn't, it is 100% private & is therefore exempt.
#11, you really need to read. This is out of the school's hands. This is the fault of that Reform-convert who taught at JFS & wanted her goyishe son to be admitted. This case was decided in a secular court, not a Bais Din. Until/unless this ruling is overturned, there will be more Kayleigh Chapples.
Stamford Hilly-billy, thanks for explaining British "Orthodoxy" to the American masses.
24
Jun 11, 2010 at 11:20 AM LIBERALISM IS A DISEASE!!! Says:Report as Inappropriate
So the mother is 'orthodox' yet she is married to a shaygitz?? Someone should tell the mother that she should stop claiming to be orthodox when she is acting like a plain & pashut shiksa.
The whole story makes little sense but then again that's European yiddiskeit for you.
25
Jun 11, 2010 at 11:37 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Actually, Milhouse, this time YOU are wrong. IF a school accepts govt money (for secular education only) they have to abide by this ruling. Belz cheder doesn't, it is 100% private & is therefore exempt.
#11, you really need to read. This is out of the school's hands. This is the fault of that Reform-convert who taught at JFS & wanted her goyishe son to be admitted. This case was decided in a secular court, not a Bais Din. Until/unless this ruling is overturned, there will be more Kayleigh Chapples.
Stamford Hilly-billy, thanks for explaining British "Orthodoxy" to the American masses. ”
Actually, milhouse is right for once. Discrimination laws apply to all organisations, not just those accepting public money.
26
Jun 11, 2010 at 11:47 AM Shmilfke Says:Report as Inappropriate
So her name is Chapple but she never goes to Chapel?
27
Jun 11, 2010 at 11:48 AM Authentic Londoner Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Actually, Milhouse, this time YOU are wrong. IF a school accepts govt money (for secular education only) they have to abide by this ruling. Belz cheder doesn't, it is 100% private & is therefore exempt.
#11, you really need to read. This is out of the school's hands. This is the fault of that Reform-convert who taught at JFS & wanted her goyishe son to be admitted. This case was decided in a secular court, not a Bais Din. Until/unless this ruling is overturned, there will be more Kayleigh Chapples.
Stamford Hilly-billy, thanks for explaining British "Orthodoxy" to the American masses. ”
In fact Millhouse is right and ex-Brit is wrong. The school has been forced to act because of the Race Relations Act 1965 which applies as much to private bodies as to public bodies. There can not however be many non-Jews who would wish to go to Belz school as Hassidic education is considered by frei Jews to be very poor and a place for their children should avoid unlike King David School whose all round education is considered excellent. .
28
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:06 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ 'But I'm 100% an Orthodox Jew' that has to be the line of the week. She married to goy, and she's transgressing the biggest aveiros and she says she's an Orthodox Jew. How sad...... ”
You are applying US standards to a UK situation. The Reform was effectively thrown out of the UK by one of the earlier Chief Rabbis and anyone joining that sect is still considered a non-Jew by a huge proportion of Anglo-Jewry. When the woman says she is Orthodox, she simply means that when she does something, she does it according to the criteria of the Chief Rabbinate of the UK, even though she may personally not be observant. Thus she wants an Orthodox education for her daughter. It's a bit hard to fathom, but that's how they think.
29
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:07 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ 'But I'm 100% an Orthodox Jew' that has to be the line of the week. She married to goy, and she's transgressing the biggest aveiros and she says she's an Orthodox Jew. How sad...... ”
So if the girl claims to be a non-Jew, she would probably be accepted?
30
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:11 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Because it takes money from the government. The same situation exists in Ireland and Spain. If we ever get vouchers in the US in a big way, Jewish schools here will have to accept non-Jewish students. ”
No, you are lying. It has nothing to do with money. The law applies to every school, no matter where it gets its funding.
31
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:13 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This whole story smells and stinks... There must be more to this story.. It shows though that 'jews' don't get it.. This religion is a cult and a big joke. It is clearly the fault of the 33 concert ban 'rabbis' and other 'rabbis' who are making tomfoolery of this. Time to oust them all! ”
The only thing that smells and stinks is you and your insane obsession with "33 concert ban rabbis". If you think yiddishkeit is a cult then get the %^&* off this site.
32
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:19 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I think this is disgusting!! Whoever runs this school should be ashamed of himself and I hope he can sleep at night. He has just thrown a jewish girl to the goyim and he does not even care -- with no second thought. Would he have done that to his own daughter?? Of course not!! He should have pretended that this was his daughter!! He just did not care!! That is what is wrong with some of today's rabbis. They JUST DO NOT CARE!!!! ”
So what did you expect the school to do about it?
33
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:20 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Our "heimishe "mosdos do it too. they dont except kids in school cheder camp etc someone someday after 120 will answer to hashem no wonder we have so many kids going off the derech may hashem avenge their blood and protext out kids ”
Which mosad turns someone down if they're able to take them?
34
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:25 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Actually, Milhouse, this time YOU are wrong. IF a school accepts govt money (for secular education only) they have to abide by this ruling. Belz cheder doesn't, it is 100% private & is therefore exempt.
#11, you really need to read. This is out of the school's hands. This is the fault of that Reform-convert who taught at JFS & wanted her goyishe son to be admitted. This case was decided in a secular court, not a Bais Din. Until/unless this ruling is overturned, there will be more Kayleigh Chapples.
Stamford Hilly-billy, thanks for explaining British "Orthodoxy" to the American masses. ”
"ex-Brit", you are a damned liar. You know very well that you are not telling the truth, and that the law applies equally to all schools no matter where they get their money, but you just don't care. Midvar sheker tirchok. The only difference between King David and Belz is that Belz don't get a lot of goyishe applicants, so the issue never comes up. But if they turn down a goy and someone massers, they'll be in exactly the same trouble as JFS was. It then becomes a question of whether one is obligated to be moser nefesh, and in most cases the poskim have said that so long as the issue is only one of admitting a small number of goyim to a Jewish school, and the law is a general anti-discrimination law not aimed at yiddishkeit, then one needn't be moser nefesh.
35
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:26 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ So the mother is 'orthodox' yet she is married to a shaygitz?? Someone should tell the mother that she should stop claiming to be orthodox when she is acting like a plain & pashut shiksa.
The whole story makes little sense but then again that's European yiddiskeit for you. ”
Plenty of orthodox people do aveiros. Orthodoxy has nothing to do with observance. Orthodoxy is about BELIEF, it's about acknowledging that the Torah and mitzvos are valid, even if one doesn't actually obey them.
36
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:26 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Actually, milhouse is right for once. Discrimination laws apply to all organisations, not just those accepting public money. ”
For once?! When have I been wrong?
37
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:27 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ According to halacha one may not teach Torah to non-Jews. ”
So you excuse the goyim from limudei kodesh. Or organise separate limudei kodesh classes in which they learn about the 7 mitzvos.
38
Jun 11, 2010 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Which mosad turns someone down if they're able to take them? ”
All mosdos it depends how you look on the street people
Don’t care how you raise your kids with modos
They just think there god but I hope they know what
There doing because after 120 they will have to answer
To god and I hope they have a answer for ever tear a parent
Dropped because of them
39
Jun 11, 2010 at 01:07 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ the school will be shut down if they don't follow the new law. What do you want them to do?? ”
Shut down or stop claiming to be a Jewish school.
40
Jun 11, 2010 at 01:43 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Plenty of orthodox people do aveiros. Orthodoxy has nothing to do with observance. Orthodoxy is about BELIEF, it's about acknowledging that the Torah and mitzvos are valid, even if one doesn't actually obey them. ”
Wow, Milhouse, this is a very profound statement. Most of the time you annoy me but this was good, very good.
41
Jun 11, 2010 at 01:51 PM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Shut down or stop claiming to be a Jewish school. ”
And then what will be with the Jewish children?
42
Jun 11, 2010 at 02:09 PM JLan Says:Report as Inappropriate
A lot of people here don't seem to understand the situation here:
1) "Orthodox" in the UK doesn't necessarily mean shomer shabbat, shomer kashrut, etc. Rather, it meas that one recognizes the Orthodox rabbinate as the legitimate rabbinic authority. The kids at an Orthodox school would still be educated in limudei kodesh, but might not be particularly observant themselves.
2) The JFS decision had nothing to do with government money. The UK considers determining admission based on ancestry to be racial discrimination. Jewish schools, therefore, need to restrict admissions based on some sort of practice. Since we don't baptize people and don't easily allow for conversion, the decision was made to do this based on certain religious practices, like shul attendance. That applies to ALL schools. Milhouse, above is absolutely correct in his statement that the law would apply to a Belzer cheder as much as it applies to the school in question.
43
Jun 11, 2010 at 02:55 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Wow, Milhouse, this is a very profound statement. Most of the time you annoy me but this was good, very good. ”
I can honestly say that this is the first time when I looked at something which Millhouse wrote, and then smiled.
Very nice, for once.
If only you would show your intelligence more often and your rage and violent temper less often - we would all be more well balanced.
44
Jun 11, 2010 at 03:07 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ And then what will be with the Jewish children? ”
They'll go to REALLY Jewish schools, not the fake phony ones, believing they're getting a normative Jewish education.
45
Jun 11, 2010 at 03:37 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Wow, I've heard of people who are mechalel Shabbos and eat treif and claim they're orthodox, but this is the first time I've heard of someone who's married to a goy and claims she's orthodox. ”
So? Who are you to criticize? You have no idea of her situation or circumstances.
What if she's now a recent Baal Tshuvah? And even if not, why should she answer to you? Who put you in charge?
46
Jun 11, 2010 at 03:47 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Wow, I've heard of people who are mechalel Shabbos and eat treif and claim they're orthodox, but this is the first time I've heard of someone who's married to a goy and claims she's orthodox. ”
Why is everyone making such a big deal about a London school that's forced into this situation?
The Yeshivos here do it on their own. Try getting into a good yeshiva without an interview to find out if you have a television in the house, if you drink only cholov yisroel, or if your mother, Gd forbid, doesn't cover her hair 100% of the time.
I know people who were turned away from yeshivos like Mirrer and Torah Vodaas for not being from a "frum enough" family to go to their high school. However, their contact information was good enough for later telephone calls and mailings from these same yeshivas asking for donations from these people they turned away.
What a bunch of hypocrites, and shame on all of you as well who criticize any Jew who wants to go to a Yeshiva, regardless of their current level of observance and is turned away. If they have a sincere desire to learn and do nothing to be bad influences on other students, their personal level of observance is none of your business, and not for you to judge.
47
Jun 11, 2010 at 04:54 PM Shmuel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are applying US standards to a UK situation. The Reform was effectively thrown out of the UK by one of the earlier Chief Rabbis and anyone joining that sect is still considered a non-Jew by a huge proportion of Anglo-Jewry. When the woman says she is Orthodox, she simply means that when she does something, she does it according to the criteria of the Chief Rabbinate of the UK, even though she may personally not be observant. Thus she wants an Orthodox education for her daughter. It's a bit hard to fathom, but that's how they think. ”
"When the woman says she is Orthodox, she simply means that when she does something, she does it according to the criteria of the Chief Rabbinate of the UK, even though she may personally not be observant. "
Come again? When she does something? Being mchaleles Shabbos, ocheles treifa and sleeping with sheigitz - all this in accordance to Cheif Rabbinate criteria? Care to expand on this?
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Jun 11, 2010 at 05:04 PM Shmuel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ A lot of people here don't seem to understand the situation here:
1) "Orthodox" in the UK doesn't necessarily mean shomer shabbat, shomer kashrut, etc. Rather, it meas that one recognizes the Orthodox rabbinate as the legitimate rabbinic authority. The kids at an Orthodox school would still be educated in limudei kodesh, but might not be particularly observant themselves.
2) The JFS decision had nothing to do with government money. The UK considers determining admission based on ancestry to be racial discrimination. Jewish schools, therefore, need to restrict admissions based on some sort of practice. Since we don't baptize people and don't easily allow for conversion, the decision was made to do this based on certain religious practices, like shul attendance. That applies to ALL schools. Milhouse, above is absolutely correct in his statement that the law would apply to a Belzer cheder as much as it applies to the school in question. ”
" ...the decision was made to do this [school acceptance] based on certain religious practices, like shul attendance."
Seems to me, much wiser decision would have been to base school acceptance on such religious practices as keeping shabbos, kashrus or ... here is a thought! not marrying goyim. What d'ya say?
49
Jun 11, 2010 at 05:56 PM bigwheeel Says:Report as Inappropriate
But this ruling (by the Court) stands things on their head. And is exclusionary. The irony here is, that they can end up with a non-Jewish majority. If some students must adhere to certain standards, why don't all of them?!
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Jun 11, 2010 at 06:17 PM 5T richman (doctor) Says:Report as Inappropriate
i agree with this. and because of my backround....i makes sence.
the governments should be by, for and with the people.
are you with me?
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Jun 11, 2010 at 11:20 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Any Jewish child who wishes to attend the school should be admitted - rather encourage someone to continue Jewish tradition, than place obstacles and perhaps lose them forever. How can it make sense to reject her, notwithstanding the number of shul attendances by her family, and admit a non-Jew? Typical orthodox hypocrisy at work!
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Jun 12, 2010 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
this child is JEWISH, not matter what the mother does, she's not responsible for the adult mistake, she wants to learn judaism and be educated in a jewish school, if she can't get that at home, she can get that in the community, but if the community judges the mother and let the child without a chinuch then the little girl will marry a goy, making goyish children etc and we as a people will lose generations of jews just because some people don't like what the mother does...
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Jun 12, 2010 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Which mosad turns someone down if they're able to take them? ”
A lot of them do your father is this your mother is this you are not a top student schools camps yeshivas cheders they all discriminate it4 doesnt matter if the kid is good
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Jun 13, 2010 at 12:22 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Any Jewish child who wishes to attend the school should be admitted - rather encourage someone to continue Jewish tradition, than place obstacles and perhaps lose them forever. How can it make sense to reject her, notwithstanding the number of shul attendances by her family, and admit a non-Jew? Typical orthodox hypocrisy at work! ”
Of course you have reading comprehension issues. The school was forced to do this because of a court ruling. They used to decide based on halacha whom to admit, how ever this was challenged in court by one of your people apparently, who felt it was unfair to make decisions about admittance to a jewish school based on halacha and that the school needed to use other critera to measure religion. Attendance at shul was the critera, accordingly, the school, because of interference by the reform and conservative, now has to accept non jews and exclude jews.
The hypocricy, which is typical, is that of the conservative and reform movements YM"S, which apparently are actively seeking to destroy the jewish religion.
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Jun 13, 2010 at 12:26 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Because it takes money from the government. The same situation exists in Ireland and Spain. If we ever get vouchers in the US in a big way, Jewish schools here will have to accept non-Jewish students. ”
Which you are in favor of.
It would make no sense for there to be government interference if there were vouchers. The vouchers would be provided to the parents to use for the education of the children. The schools would not be working for the government.
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Jun 13, 2010 at 08:32 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I wonder why the shul will not accept the mother as a member of the synagogue. is the MOTHER Jewish, Yes! because SHE married out she is to be an outcast! How many more neshamas do we have to lose before ppl will wake up!
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Jun 13, 2010 at 08:48 AM Another authentic Londoner Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The law in the UK is clear. A school can no more restrict admission to Jews than a golf club can restrict membership to non-Jews. It matters not whether the school (or club) is privately or publicly funded. The school can however require children to have engaged in a particular level of Jewish practice (such as attending shul) just as a golf club may require members to have reached a particular handicap before they are allowed as members.
This of course completely contradicts halacha. However as is not suprising, the UK courts see their role as applying UK law and not Halacha. ”
This is not correct.
The law applies only to state funded schools, not the "private" schools such as the chadorim in Stamford Hill etc.
The governors have an absolute right to decide the admissions criteria of those moisdois.
That is way the only heimishe school to have problems with its admissions is the YHS girls' It is state funded.
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Jun 13, 2010 at 08:55 AM Londoner Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Again with your falsehoods. Stop telling lies. You know very well that this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with government money. The same law applies to King David and to the Belzer cheder. ”
Milhouse, I'm surprised at you. You are an educated person. At least I always thought so.
The law does NOT apply to Belz or Wiznitz or Satmer or Skver or Bobov etc. They are private "charitable" schools created for the SOLE purpose of educating their children according to their "traditions" and do not ask for or receive any state funding.
They have an absolute right to decide to they will admit and in fact within very broad and flexible guidelines to decide the curicullum (I hope I spelt that right!).
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Jun 13, 2010 at 11:34 AM Chossid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Why is everyone making such a big deal about a London school that's forced into this situation?
The Yeshivos here do it on their own. Try getting into a good yeshiva without an interview to find out if you have a television in the house, if you drink only cholov yisroel, or if your mother, Gd forbid, doesn't cover her hair 100% of the time.
I know people who were turned away from yeshivos like Mirrer and Torah Vodaas for not being from a "frum enough" family to go to their high school. However, their contact information was good enough for later telephone calls and mailings from these same yeshivas asking for donations from these people they turned away.
What a bunch of hypocrites, and shame on all of you as well who criticize any Jew who wants to go to a Yeshiva, regardless of their current level of observance and is turned away. If they have a sincere desire to learn and do nothing to be bad influences on other students, their personal level of observance is none of your business, and not for you to judge. ”
And that is as it should be.
I don't have a television or drink cholov akum and not a single hair of either my mother or my wife are ever have seen exposed by anyone (except me, of course!!!!!).
There are plenty of yeshivos, especially in Israel, that cater for bochurim from more"modern" households and I regularly give them donations.
I cannot see what is wrong with the opposite.
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Jun 13, 2010 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Milhouse is 100% correct. I can't believe some of you still don't get it. The court ruling was under the racial discrimination act, which of course applies to any organisation, state or privately funded.
The BNP is a good example - they tried to only accept whites, and were done in by the courts, although they are not state-funded.
Do you really have the slightest hava amina that organisations not funded by the government can be racist?
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Jun 14, 2010 at 04:24 PM Shmuel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I wonder why the shul will not accept the mother as a member of the synagogue. is the MOTHER Jewish, Yes! because SHE married out she is to be an outcast! How many more neshamas do we have to lose before ppl will wake up! ”
Are you suggesting shuls should accept as full members people in mixed 'marriages'? Truly, some people are so open-minded that all their brains fell out already.
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Jun 16, 2010 at 08:22 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
This particular incident is the local education authority's fault. They failed to give a reasonable notice period about the change to the rules, and for that reason I wish Mrs Chapple the best of luck in her legal challenge. As for the principle though, English anti-discrimination law has to uphold the principle that it is what a person does that counts, not what they were born as. Allowing that cardinal rule to be bent in a good cause would create a precedent for all sorts of unpleasantness, some of which, as mentioned above, would probably be directed against Jews. But what do I know, I'm just a goy ;-)