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New York - Hundreds Of Thousands Of Observant Jews To Mark Tisha B'Av

Published on: July 19, 2010 11:58 AM
By: AP/ VIN News
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New York - Hundreds Of Thousands of Orthodox Jews around the globe will be observing Tisha B’Av (9th of Av) starting today at sundown by adopting symbols of mourning.

Those include sitting on low stools and chanting dirges. It’s a way of remembering events 20 centuries ago when the two biblical temples were destroyed by invaders about 650 years apart.

Thousands have been gathering in Jerusalem at the Western Wall, a remnant of the temples. Observant Jews fast the whole day beginning at sunset today on the eve of Tisha B’Av and ending at nightfall the next day. Rabbis emphasize the Jews believed they brought the destruction upon themselves by unholy behavior.

Link to camera of the Kotel here 

Photo essay in Jerusalem below by Flash90



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1

 Jul 19, 2010 at 12:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Hopefully moshiach will still come before the fast begins...

2

 Jul 19, 2010 at 12:20 PM shmuel Says:

why do you say observant (or otrhodox) jews? All jews observe Tisha B'av, as much as they learn about it.

3

 Jul 19, 2010 at 12:32 PM Anonymous Says:

wouldn't the two temples have been destroyed 490 years apart?

4

 Jul 19, 2010 at 12:47 PM Hope Says:

וכל בית ישראל יבכו את השריפה אשר שרף ה

5

 Jul 19, 2010 at 12:49 PM Dirge Chanter Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

Hopefully moshiach will still come before the fast begins...

Only if we rectify the cause of the "unholy behavior", which was sinas chinom. In other words, not for a long, long time.

6

 Jul 19, 2010 at 12:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

Hopefully moshiach will still come before the fast begins...

Do you have your luggage packed and ready? One great rabbi once gave a shiur and said when people ask for Moshiach to come today and don't have a suitcase packed and ready, they really don't believe it.

7

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:14 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Dirge Chanter Says:

Only if we rectify the cause of the "unholy behavior", which was sinas chinom. In other words, not for a long, long time.

Absolutely correct, all the crying , sitting on the floor vert nisht helfen unless we learn the lesson of Kamza bar Kamze, sinach chinom to stam a yid

8

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:17 PM Jack Says:

Thousands of Jews? I would like to think that there are millions of Observant Jews across the globe.

9

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Do you have your luggage packed and ready? One great rabbi once gave a shiur and said when people ask for Moshiach to come today and don't have a suitcase packed and ready, they really don't believe it.

Besides Tallis and T'filin what should we pack ?

10

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
anonymous Says:

Absolutely correct, all the crying , sitting on the floor vert nisht helfen unless we learn the lesson of Kamza bar Kamze, sinach chinom to stam a yid

Not only sinas chinom, all sinah period .

11

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:27 PM Anonymous Says:

We are also mourning the thousands of years of golus, the rivers of yiddishe blood and tears. The spiritual golus, that thousands of yidden dont know of shabbos of torah of kedusah and tahara. Oiy lonu ke chatanu!.

12

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Jack Says:

Thousands of Jews? I would like to think that there are millions of Observant Jews across the globe.

sadly there isnt millions

13

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:51 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #7  
anonymous Says:

Absolutely correct, all the crying , sitting on the floor vert nisht helfen unless we learn the lesson of Kamza bar Kamze, sinach chinom to stam a yid

Sorry, if that's the lesson you draw from the story, you've completely misunderstood it. Go back to the gemara and learn it again. The gemara does not in any way say or hint that what was done to Bar Kamtza was wrong. On the contrary, his later actions prove that he was not "stam a yid" but a rosho merusho, and no decent person would stay at a seudah to which he was invited. If he had been allowed to stay, all the rabbonim would have got up and left, because they wouldn't want to be in his company.

If there is a lesson in the story, it would be that one must kill a mosser and not have mercy on him. That is the lesson of Tzom Gedalya, and that may be the lesson of this story. That is certainly R Yochanan's conclusion: he says that the R Zecharya's scruples destroyed the BHMK.

But really, if you read the story in the context of the two stories that follow it, it's clear that the lesson is something completely different: the lesson of all three stories is that when Hashem wants something to happen, it doesn't take much to trigger it. The tiniest mistake, something as small as a postman misdelivering a letter, is enough to set off the avalanche.

14

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Besides Tallis and T'filin what should we pack ?

We will not need tallis and t'fillin once moishiach comes and we have korbonos in bayis shlishi...we will no longer be in galus and relying upon tefillot

15

 Jul 19, 2010 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Besides Tallis and T'filin what should we pack ?

What do you pack when you travel upstate over the summer? What do normal people pack when they travel or move to another country?

16

 Jul 19, 2010 at 02:28 PM Yosef Says:

The Holy Ruzhiner (Chassidic master Rabbi Yisrael of Ruzhin, 1797-1851) rejected all feelings of sadness, even of bitterness. So his chassidim would practice all sorts of practical jokes and pranks on the Ninth of Av (in order to put down the sadness of the day). They would throw beans at each other. Then they thought of an amazing prank : they opened a skylight window in the roof of the beis medrash hall and dropped a rope; with a little playing around they managed to make it that when someone walked into the study hall, they would automatically yank on the rope so that the rope fastened itself around him, and pull him up to the roof, hanging him by his foot upside down.

Early tishabav morning it happened that the holy Ruzhiner himself walked in to the study hall. Those who were up on the roof could not see clearly who was coming in, so they pulled him up thinking they had done a great prank. To their horror, they saw that they had pulled up their Rebbe! As soon as they recognized who it was, they let him down.
The Ruzhiner got up on his feet and said the following words: "Master of the Universe! If Your children are not properly observing Your 'festival,' take it away from them

17

 Jul 19, 2010 at 02:31 PM berel Says:

your right , some think the only mitzvah in the torah is sinas chinom, loshen horah and only when its directed against desecraters of the torah (and when its directed to shomrei torah, mamimin bnei maminim who they label chareidim then they jump on the bandwagon with 'gusto') when actually thats when its a mitzvah to do opposite ....'oizvei torah yehallelah rasha voshomrei torah yisgeru bom'........' mitzvah lisnoso ...' arvei psochim...

19

 Jul 19, 2010 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Yosef Says:

The Holy Ruzhiner (Chassidic master Rabbi Yisrael of Ruzhin, 1797-1851) rejected all feelings of sadness, even of bitterness. So his chassidim would practice all sorts of practical jokes and pranks on the Ninth of Av (in order to put down the sadness of the day). They would throw beans at each other. Then they thought of an amazing prank : they opened a skylight window in the roof of the beis medrash hall and dropped a rope; with a little playing around they managed to make it that when someone walked into the study hall, they would automatically yank on the rope so that the rope fastened itself around him, and pull him up to the roof, hanging him by his foot upside down.

Early tishabav morning it happened that the holy Ruzhiner himself walked in to the study hall. Those who were up on the roof could not see clearly who was coming in, so they pulled him up thinking they had done a great prank. To their horror, they saw that they had pulled up their Rebbe! As soon as they recognized who it was, they let him down.
The Ruzhiner got up on his feet and said the following words: "Master of the Universe! If Your children are not properly observing Your 'festival,' take it away from them

Thanks for explaining the shito of the misnagdim...

20

 Jul 19, 2010 at 03:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Milhouse Says:

Sorry, if that's the lesson you draw from the story, you've completely misunderstood it. Go back to the gemara and learn it again. The gemara does not in any way say or hint that what was done to Bar Kamtza was wrong. On the contrary, his later actions prove that he was not "stam a yid" but a rosho merusho, and no decent person would stay at a seudah to which he was invited. If he had been allowed to stay, all the rabbonim would have got up and left, because they wouldn't want to be in his company.

If there is a lesson in the story, it would be that one must kill a mosser and not have mercy on him. That is the lesson of Tzom Gedalya, and that may be the lesson of this story. That is certainly R Yochanan's conclusion: he says that the R Zecharya's scruples destroyed the BHMK.

But really, if you read the story in the context of the two stories that follow it, it's clear that the lesson is something completely different: the lesson of all three stories is that when Hashem wants something to happen, it doesn't take much to trigger it. The tiniest mistake, something as small as a postman misdelivering a letter, is enough to set off the avalanche.

May we be zoche to experience the binyan of the next beis hamikdosh and the geulah shleymah. But to reinterpret the lesson of the churban in such a violently exclusionist way and mandating totalitarian world order of fundamentalist proportions is not just dangerous to people who get on your own bad list, it's very sad indeed for klal yisroel and some of its community members. I sincerely hope your crusade has minimal followers, at best.

21

 Jul 19, 2010 at 03:15 PM berel Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

May we be zoche to experience the binyan of the next beis hamikdosh and the geulah shleymah. But to reinterpret the lesson of the churban in such a violently exclusionist way and mandating totalitarian world order of fundamentalist proportions is not just dangerous to people who get on your own bad list, it's very sad indeed for klal yisroel and some of its community members. I sincerely hope your crusade has minimal followers, at best.

its not an interpetation thats what the rishonim say pshat. nowhere in the gemmorah is sinas chinom mentioned(in that sugyah) nu, mr talmud chachem what is your pshat ??

22

 Jul 19, 2010 at 03:34 PM berel Says:

we are no corrupt , not stiff necked. there thousands of chesed organizatuions all over the globe run by us, helping any yid any shape form and color.there are1000'
sds of yidden running all over the globe leaving behind family to be mekarev lost sheep to avinu shebashumayi. You are a human (?) which our rebbe, moshe rabbainu describes as ' huish achad yechta v'al kol huaeida yiktzof' what about hatzalah all over the globe. yungelreit leaving their families any time of day and night yom tov, yom kupper, rosh hasha why IS this OUT OF SINAH? YOU CREEP can you picture such a phenomoinum by the imos huoilom. go back into your cave you sione yisroel

23

 Jul 19, 2010 at 04:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Milhouse Says:

Sorry, if that's the lesson you draw from the story, you've completely misunderstood it. Go back to the gemara and learn it again. The gemara does not in any way say or hint that what was done to Bar Kamtza was wrong. On the contrary, his later actions prove that he was not "stam a yid" but a rosho merusho, and no decent person would stay at a seudah to which he was invited. If he had been allowed to stay, all the rabbonim would have got up and left, because they wouldn't want to be in his company.

If there is a lesson in the story, it would be that one must kill a mosser and not have mercy on him. That is the lesson of Tzom Gedalya, and that may be the lesson of this story. That is certainly R Yochanan's conclusion: he says that the R Zecharya's scruples destroyed the BHMK.

But really, if you read the story in the context of the two stories that follow it, it's clear that the lesson is something completely different: the lesson of all three stories is that when Hashem wants something to happen, it doesn't take much to trigger it. The tiniest mistake, something as small as a postman misdelivering a letter, is enough to set off the avalanche.

Very well said. And let us pray that the other way around, when it will be Hashem's will that the Third Bais Hamikdosh will be rebuilt that only the slightest good that we do will be the catalyst to bring Moshiach and rebuild the Bais Hamikdosh.

24

 Jul 19, 2010 at 04:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
berel Says:

we are no corrupt , not stiff necked. there thousands of chesed organizatuions all over the globe run by us, helping any yid any shape form and color.there are1000'
sds of yidden running all over the globe leaving behind family to be mekarev lost sheep to avinu shebashumayi. You are a human (?) which our rebbe, moshe rabbainu describes as ' huish achad yechta v'al kol huaeida yiktzof' what about hatzalah all over the globe. yungelreit leaving their families any time of day and night yom tov, yom kupper, rosh hasha why IS this OUT OF SINAH? YOU CREEP can you picture such a phenomoinum by the imos huoilom. go back into your cave you sione yisroel

you are not talking nicely to another yid where is your ahavas yisrael? its not all about hatzollah!

25

 Jul 19, 2010 at 04:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Dirge Chanter Says:

Only if we rectify the cause of the "unholy behavior", which was sinas chinom. In other words, not for a long, long time.

You, according to the rambam, are a kofer betorah...... I won't elaborate, it's ere tisha b'av

26

 Jul 19, 2010 at 04:25 PM esther Says:

Reply to #5  
Dirge Chanter Says:

Only if we rectify the cause of the "unholy behavior", which was sinas chinom. In other words, not for a long, long time.

mr dirge,although your name seems to be very befitting,you can work on yourself to change your world view.we have lot's of issues that need lots of rectification however there is so much good amongst bnai yisroel,even in this deep,dark galus.when you see good in others it effects you as well as them in a positive way. in other words moshiach really can come at any moment.

27

 Jul 19, 2010 at 04:32 PM 5T Resident Says:

Reply to #22  
berel Says:

we are no corrupt , not stiff necked. there thousands of chesed organizatuions all over the globe run by us, helping any yid any shape form and color.there are1000'
sds of yidden running all over the globe leaving behind family to be mekarev lost sheep to avinu shebashumayi. You are a human (?) which our rebbe, moshe rabbainu describes as ' huish achad yechta v'al kol huaeida yiktzof' what about hatzalah all over the globe. yungelreit leaving their families any time of day and night yom tov, yom kupper, rosh hasha why IS this OUT OF SINAH? YOU CREEP can you picture such a phenomoinum by the imos huoilom. go back into your cave you sione yisroel

Do you not think that there were many tzadikkim who lived at the time of the destruction of both Botei Mikdashot who also did the chesed and mitzvos you describe above, and were nevertheless sent into Golus? Do you not think that there were tzadikkim throughout the centuries of Golus who spent their lives doing chesed? And what about all of the tzadikkim and Gedolei Torah who lived prior to World War II and went to Auschwitz anyway?

Of course there are thousands of righteous tzadikkim in the world. But my point was that there continue also to be strains of corruption within the frum world that have far-reaching consequences for all frum Jews, from tzadikkim to simple Torah Jews. Our history is rife with examples of tzadikkim being punished along with the evildoers.

28

 Jul 19, 2010 at 05:32 PM Anonymous Says:

I agree with alot of what you said. What I've been saying for years is-you know all the films that are shown on Tisha B'Av-about middot, or chesed, or ahavas Yisrael? Well, the only people who go to them are the ones who already pay attention to these topics. I look around and it's literally preaching to the choir. It has gotten to a point where I won't go to these films anymore-my heart breaks when I see who should be there but isn't. I keep going to the ones about Israel, Gush Katif, etc., but I can't bring myself to go to the aforementioned ones.

29

 Jul 19, 2010 at 06:14 PM berel Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

you are not talking nicely to another yid where is your ahavas yisrael? its not all about hatzollah!

where is your ahavas yisroel? i didnt see you commenting on his post so you must be in his league so the same post goes for you (i mentioned much more than hatzalah.)

30

 Jul 19, 2010 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

We will not need tallis and t'fillin once moishiach comes and we have korbonos in bayis shlishi...we will no longer be in galus and relying upon tefillot

tefillin is a mitzvoh d'oraisa! When moshiach comes, we won't have mitzvos? Of course we will, we'll just be able to serve Hashem in the ideal state!

31

 Jul 19, 2010 at 06:28 PM esther Says:

Reply to #27  
5T Resident Says:

Do you not think that there were many tzadikkim who lived at the time of the destruction of both Botei Mikdashot who also did the chesed and mitzvos you describe above, and were nevertheless sent into Golus? Do you not think that there were tzadikkim throughout the centuries of Golus who spent their lives doing chesed? And what about all of the tzadikkim and Gedolei Torah who lived prior to World War II and went to Auschwitz anyway?

Of course there are thousands of righteous tzadikkim in the world. But my point was that there continue also to be strains of corruption within the frum world that have far-reaching consequences for all frum Jews, from tzadikkim to simple Torah Jews. Our history is rife with examples of tzadikkim being punished along with the evildoers.

all you say is true however all the zchusim of all the mitzvos of all the previous generations and this generation are everlasting. that scale weighing whether or not to send moshiach must be leaning way over on the send him side by now.

32

 Jul 19, 2010 at 06:37 PM Menchlich Says:

You think well have WIFI on kanfi Nesharim when Moshiach comes so we can keep up VIN comments

33

 Jul 19, 2010 at 06:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
esther Says:

mr dirge,although your name seems to be very befitting,you can work on yourself to change your world view.we have lot's of issues that need lots of rectification however there is so much good amongst bnai yisroel,even in this deep,dark galus.when you see good in others it effects you as well as them in a positive way. in other words moshiach really can come at any moment.

Have you ever been to eretz yisroel and seen the discrimination against Sephardim? Have you seen the breakoffs and divisions between different chassidic groups?
If you ever want things to change, you can't be "touchy-feely" about the good that goes on in our nation-you have to be realistic and acknowledge the problems too if you want anything to change. Good feelings alone won't help.

34

 Jul 19, 2010 at 06:57 PM LF Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Do you have your luggage packed and ready? One great rabbi once gave a shiur and said when people ask for Moshiach to come today and don't have a suitcase packed and ready, they really don't believe it.

Turn your house into a house of Torah,Avodah and Gemillas Chasodim ,and you wont have to pack. Your stuff along with your house will be on the clouds flying to Yerushalayim!

35

 Jul 19, 2010 at 07:31 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #34  
LF Says:

Turn your house into a house of Torah,Avodah and Gemillas Chasodim ,and you wont have to pack. Your stuff along with your house will be on the clouds flying to Yerushalayim!

I'm not aware of any source for the notion that anyone will fly on clouds, or indeed that Moshiach will fly us to EY at all. It seems very improbable, since clouds are just globs of mist. אם קבלה היא נקבל, and certainly if it's written somewhere, but I've yet to come across it. As for buildings flying, again, I've seen no source for that.

Until I see such a source, I will continue to believe that we will have to make our own way to EY, by bus, ship, or plane, and that our institutions will leave their buildings behind and reestablish themselves in EY, as so many institutions have already done.

36

 Jul 19, 2010 at 07:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Every one have an easy fast!

37

 Jul 19, 2010 at 08:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Milhouse Says:

I'm not aware of any source for the notion that anyone will fly on clouds, or indeed that Moshiach will fly us to EY at all. It seems very improbable, since clouds are just globs of mist. אם קבלה היא נקבל, and certainly if it's written somewhere, but I've yet to come across it. As for buildings flying, again, I've seen no source for that.

Until I see such a source, I will continue to believe that we will have to make our own way to EY, by bus, ship, or plane, and that our institutions will leave their buildings behind and reestablish themselves in EY, as so many institutions have already done.

Have you not come across the term "Anannay Shmaya" in regards to flying to EY with Moshiach ?

38

 Jul 19, 2010 at 08:20 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #37  
Anonymous Says:

Have you not come across the term "Anannay Shmaya" in regards to flying to EY with Moshiach ?

I've heard people use it, but that's not a source. Throwing some Aramaic into a made-up story doesn't makes it true.

39

 Jul 19, 2010 at 08:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Milhouse Says:

I'm not aware of any source for the notion that anyone will fly on clouds, or indeed that Moshiach will fly us to EY at all. It seems very improbable, since clouds are just globs of mist. אם קבלה היא נקבל, and certainly if it's written somewhere, but I've yet to come across it. As for buildings flying, again, I've seen no source for that.

Until I see such a source, I will continue to believe that we will have to make our own way to EY, by bus, ship, or plane, and that our institutions will leave their buildings behind and reestablish themselves in EY, as so many institutions have already done.

You are a naive and simple minded yid if you really believe that z'man moishiach literally means all jews must travel to and live in eretz yisroel. The boundaries of eretz yisroel are too small for so many jews from all over the world and we would quickly run out of space and spoil the environment. If you really believe in moishiach and olam habah than you would understand the nuances of what the coming of moishiach really means.

40

 Jul 19, 2010 at 08:35 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

You are a naive and simple minded yid if you really believe that z'man moishiach literally means all jews must travel to and live in eretz yisroel. The boundaries of eretz yisroel are too small for so many jews from all over the world and we would quickly run out of space and spoil the environment. If you really believe in moishiach and olam habah than you would understand the nuances of what the coming of moishiach really means.

You are an apikores if you DON'T believe that. Kibbutz goliyos is a core subject in the Torah itself and in all the Nevi'im, and they couldn't possibly be clearer. We will indeed all be gathered back to Eretz Yisroel and live there. Just how we will get there isn't specified, as far as I know, but THAT we will do so is. As for how we will fit, the gemara says clearly that EY expands to fit its people; that, too, is something that a Jew MUST believe. מכחיש מגידיה is an apikores. We are required to believe everything that the Torah and Chazal tell us; we are NOT required to believe everything that someone makes up one morning, and CLAIMS to have seen in a sefer. We are always entitled to ask "vi shtait"; but if we are shown vi es takeh shtait, then we must accept it.

41

 Jul 19, 2010 at 11:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
Milhouse Says:

You are an apikores if you DON'T believe that. Kibbutz goliyos is a core subject in the Torah itself and in all the Nevi'im, and they couldn't possibly be clearer. We will indeed all be gathered back to Eretz Yisroel and live there. Just how we will get there isn't specified, as far as I know, but THAT we will do so is. As for how we will fit, the gemara says clearly that EY expands to fit its people; that, too, is something that a Jew MUST believe. מכחיש מגידיה is an apikores. We are required to believe everything that the Torah and Chazal tell us; we are NOT required to believe everything that someone makes up one morning, and CLAIMS to have seen in a sefer. We are always entitled to ask "vi shtait"; but if we are shown vi es takeh shtait, then we must accept it.

Explain ; v'eisu etchem al kanfei n'shaarim .

42

 Jul 19, 2010 at 11:19 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

Explain ; v'eisu etchem al kanfei n'shaarim .

"And I carried you on griffon vulture wings". A metaphorical reference to yetzias mitzrayim. Note that despite this posuk we WALKED out of Mitzrayim on our own feet; not only didn't we fly, we didn't even ride. The posuk merely means that Hashem protected us as a griffon vulture protects its young.

Now you tell me what you think any of this has got to do with Moshiach.

43

 Jul 19, 2010 at 09:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
Milhouse Says:

I've heard people use it, but that's not a source. Throwing some Aramaic into a made-up story doesn't makes it true.

The LR used it all the time and thats a good enough source for me.

44

 Jul 19, 2010 at 10:15 PM Anonymous Says:

there is so much good in klal yisrael! may HaShem see our good qualities our good intentions and may he redeem us very soon!!
just before sof zeman achilah a family member of mine needed hatzala....several guys came with the utmost sincerity and devotion! they were not thinking about whether they will have time to eat before teh fast begins...all they were concerned about was helping another yid!! and they didnt leave untill they made surre everything was fine! they were so patient and friendly and didnt make us feel bad for inconveniencing them at that time (when they could've been eating and drinking....)

and this is what HaShem will see when he looks at his precious children!! yes we are not perfect...but we definately try our best to be good!
in the zechus of all of the chessed and tzeddaka that klal yisrael does may we see the geula today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AMEN!!!!

45

 Jul 19, 2010 at 11:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Milhouse Says:

"And I carried you on griffon vulture wings". A metaphorical reference to yetzias mitzrayim. Note that despite this posuk we WALKED out of Mitzrayim on our own feet; not only didn't we fly, we didn't even ride. The posuk merely means that Hashem protected us as a griffon vulture protects its young.

Now you tell me what you think any of this has got to do with Moshiach.

Learn the reshonim on the posuk please

46

 Jul 20, 2010 at 12:01 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Learn the reshonim on the posuk please

Which rishonim would those be? Note the the pasuk is in the PAST tense. "I carried you". There is no posuk anywhere that says "I will carry you". And in fact in the past Hashem did NOT literally carry us on wings.

47

 Jul 20, 2010 at 12:01 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

The LR used it all the time and thats a good enough source for me.

When did he say anything about flying?

48

 Jul 20, 2010 at 01:26 AM I cry for us all Says:

47 reasons why Moshiach isnt here and why we are still suffering in this 1,940 year galus. You should all search inside YOURSELF and stop blaming the religious and non religious and this Jew and that Jew. Blame YOURSELF as I blame myself right now. Shebonei Beis Hamikdash Bimhera V'yameinu V'sein Chelkienu B'Torahsecha!!!!!!!!!!!

49

 Jul 20, 2010 at 12:31 PM Anonymous Says:

On a more temporal note, please be aware that in NYC, there is NO suspension of alternate side of the street parking rules for Tisha B'Av.

50

 Jul 20, 2010 at 02:04 PM hear nur Says:

Thank you Millhouse, I appreciate your facts regarding the geulah.

51

 Jul 20, 2010 at 02:42 PM hear nur Says:

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea how we can work on achdus within klal Yisroel without condoning sin. Sometimes while working on achdus and accepting other Jews the way they are, we condone sinful behaviour. So how do we love our fellow Jews yet we are still repulsed by their sin?

After all the first Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of murder, immorality and idolitry. So obviously sin is an abomination to God.

The second Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of hatred toward each other.

So does anyone have an idea how we can come to love one another while we hate sinful deeds?

52

 Jul 20, 2010 at 03:57 PM The Torah says Says:

The Torah says to despise and loath the sin itself but not the sinner as they can always do teshuvah and become a righteous person. Its very easy since 99.9% of Jews who you say are living sinful behavior are "tinok shenishba" and are not chiav for anything while your judgement and condemnation of them is a sin equal to murder.

53

 Jul 20, 2010 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
hear nur Says:

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea how we can work on achdus within klal Yisroel without condoning sin. Sometimes while working on achdus and accepting other Jews the way they are, we condone sinful behaviour. So how do we love our fellow Jews yet we are still repulsed by their sin?

After all the first Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of murder, immorality and idolitry. So obviously sin is an abomination to God.

The second Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of hatred toward each other.

So does anyone have an idea how we can come to love one another while we hate sinful deeds?

Sorry to disapoint you, but only a fool waits for an answer .

54

 Jul 20, 2010 at 04:46 PM Raphael Says:

Reply to #13  
Milhouse Says:

Sorry, if that's the lesson you draw from the story, you've completely misunderstood it. Go back to the gemara and learn it again. The gemara does not in any way say or hint that what was done to Bar Kamtza was wrong. On the contrary, his later actions prove that he was not "stam a yid" but a rosho merusho, and no decent person would stay at a seudah to which he was invited. If he had been allowed to stay, all the rabbonim would have got up and left, because they wouldn't want to be in his company.

If there is a lesson in the story, it would be that one must kill a mosser and not have mercy on him. That is the lesson of Tzom Gedalya, and that may be the lesson of this story. That is certainly R Yochanan's conclusion: he says that the R Zecharya's scruples destroyed the BHMK.

But really, if you read the story in the context of the two stories that follow it, it's clear that the lesson is something completely different: the lesson of all three stories is that when Hashem wants something to happen, it doesn't take much to trigger it. The tiniest mistake, something as small as a postman misdelivering a letter, is enough to set off the avalanche.

The Gemorrah clearly states that the Beis Hamiqdash was destroyed because of the inflexibility of Zechariah ben Avkulos who would not allow the pasul korbon to be brought nor would he allow killing the moser.

55

 Jul 20, 2010 at 05:30 PM hear nur Says:

Reply to #52  
The Torah says Says:

The Torah says to despise and loath the sin itself but not the sinner as they can always do teshuvah and become a righteous person. Its very easy since 99.9% of Jews who you say are living sinful behavior are "tinok shenishba" and are not chiav for anything while your judgement and condemnation of them is a sin equal to murder.

"Its very easy since 99.9% of Jews who you say are living sinful behavior are "tinok shenishba" and are not chiav for anything while your judgement and condemnation of them is a sin equal to murder.”"

Thank you for taking your time to answer, but I don't call that "The Torah's" answer at all. That's your opinion. First of all what made you decide that Hashem will be more strict with frum Jews while letting all non-frum Jews off the hook? Some of them knew about Yiddishkeit and cast it off and actually there are a lot of reasons why Jews don't practice Yiddishkeit. In any case, this liberal opinion of yours is exactly the reason why I want an answer. Because I don't subscribe to that off the bat answer just as I wouldn't say that Moslems who are religiously motivated to kill others don't know any better because of their upbringing.

Sorry it ain't flying with God who demands our actions be proper and it ain't flying with me.

Your first sentence makes sense. I would apply it to those who sin but do not hurt innocent humans.

56

 Jul 20, 2010 at 05:51 PM hear nur Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

Sorry to disapoint you, but only a fool waits for an answer .

Only a fool AND a crass person makes such a comment.

Whether I was waiting for an answer or not is my concern. If YOU don't have anything intelligent to say then don't say anything or else you should know that a fool says whatever they think in their heads. So even if you think my question makes me a fool, and that's your right to think like that, YOU are the fool for making such a crass comment.

57

 Jul 20, 2010 at 06:02 PM Kim Says:

Reply to #13  
Milhouse Says:

Sorry, if that's the lesson you draw from the story, you've completely misunderstood it. Go back to the gemara and learn it again. The gemara does not in any way say or hint that what was done to Bar Kamtza was wrong. On the contrary, his later actions prove that he was not "stam a yid" but a rosho merusho, and no decent person would stay at a seudah to which he was invited. If he had been allowed to stay, all the rabbonim would have got up and left, because they wouldn't want to be in his company.

If there is a lesson in the story, it would be that one must kill a mosser and not have mercy on him. That is the lesson of Tzom Gedalya, and that may be the lesson of this story. That is certainly R Yochanan's conclusion: he says that the R Zecharya's scruples destroyed the BHMK.

But really, if you read the story in the context of the two stories that follow it, it's clear that the lesson is something completely different: the lesson of all three stories is that when Hashem wants something to happen, it doesn't take much to trigger it. The tiniest mistake, something as small as a postman misdelivering a letter, is enough to set off the avalanche.

With all due respect, One does not learn talmud by merely taking a cursory read of the raw text. Rather one should study the explanations and annotations of the holy reshonim and acharonim, for the most part they explain that the Achzorius, rishus and sino of Kamtzo when he forcibly removed his enemy from his party caused the churban. (although there were other factors, as explained later in the sugiya, the normal way of learning this gemora is that the cause was sinas chinom- zil kri bei rav)

58

 Jul 20, 2010 at 06:25 PM HaNavon Says:

LOOK AT YOURSELVES!!!!!!

You're arguing over minutiae and calling each other names...while talking about how sinas chinam destroyed the bayis sheini!
STOP IT!
By the way, the sinas chinam that destroyed the bais hamikdash was totally explainable by each and every faction! Everyone looked at the other kehilla as a bunch of apikorsim, oisvarfs, reshoim and you know what, in many cases they were right! But where they went wrong is hating them and treating them in a manner not befitting a true Ben Torah.

59

 Jul 20, 2010 at 07:04 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #57  
Kim Says:

With all due respect, One does not learn talmud by merely taking a cursory read of the raw text. Rather one should study the explanations and annotations of the holy reshonim and acharonim, for the most part they explain that the Achzorius, rishus and sino of Kamtzo when he forcibly removed his enemy from his party caused the churban. (although there were other factors, as explained later in the sugiya, the normal way of learning this gemora is that the cause was sinas chinom- zil kri bei rav)

"the Achzorius, rishus and sino of Kamtzo"?! What on earth are you talking about? When you make up lies, it's advisable to make them at least plausible on their face. If you want people to believe that there are "holy reshonim and acharonim" who read the gemara as you do, you shouldn't make the elementary mistake of putting the blame on poor Kamtzo, who lechol hade'os was completely blameless. Now I know you're just faking it, I don't have to go looking for these supposed "holy reshonim and acharonim".

I know the "normal way" i.e. the common reading by amhoratzim, is as you have it; my point is that it's wrong.

60

 Jul 20, 2010 at 07:10 PM hear nur Says:

"But where they went wrong is hating them and treating them in a manner not befitting a true Ben Torah"

That's an excellent answer. Excellent.

As is the other part of your post - something I'm guilty of. I may have had the right answer to someone's comment but I wasn't acting in a manner befitting a true Bas Yisroel. I don't hate the person who made the comment though, so I'm not that bad.

61

 Jul 20, 2010 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
hear nur Says:

Only a fool AND a crass person makes such a comment.

Whether I was waiting for an answer or not is my concern. If YOU don't have anything intelligent to say then don't say anything or else you should know that a fool says whatever they think in their heads. So even if you think my question makes me a fool, and that's your right to think like that, YOU are the fool for making such a crass comment.

Your subtle comment goes a long way in explaining how we should love one another . C'v i had no intention of calling you a fool .If I inadvertently offended you, I beg for your forgiveness .

62

 Jul 20, 2010 at 07:47 PM Kim Says:

Reply to #59  
Milhouse Says:

"the Achzorius, rishus and sino of Kamtzo"?! What on earth are you talking about? When you make up lies, it's advisable to make them at least plausible on their face. If you want people to believe that there are "holy reshonim and acharonim" who read the gemara as you do, you shouldn't make the elementary mistake of putting the blame on poor Kamtzo, who lechol hade'os was completely blameless. Now I know you're just faking it, I don't have to go looking for these supposed "holy reshonim and acharonim".

I know the "normal way" i.e. the common reading by amhoratzim, is as you have it; my point is that it's wrong.

Start with mharsho, he is a very accepted authority on explaining agodos hashas. Besides if the velt learns a gemora a certain way they were so taught by their rabonim, generaly not amei hoaretz. Therefore zil kri bei rav. (Chap Mir nisht of ein vort, red ztum zach, kamzto or bar kamzo...)

63

 Jul 20, 2010 at 07:57 PM hear nur Says:

Reply to #61  
Anonymous Says:

Your subtle comment goes a long way in explaining how we should love one another . C'v i had no intention of calling you a fool .If I inadvertently offended you, I beg for your forgiveness .

I definitely, wholeheartedly forgive you and I beg your forgiveness as well if I've hurt you with my retort.

64

 Jul 21, 2010 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
hear nur Says:

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea how we can work on achdus within klal Yisroel without condoning sin. Sometimes while working on achdus and accepting other Jews the way they are, we condone sinful behaviour. So how do we love our fellow Jews yet we are still repulsed by their sin?

After all the first Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of murder, immorality and idolitry. So obviously sin is an abomination to God.

The second Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of hatred toward each other.

So does anyone have an idea how we can come to love one another while we hate sinful deeds?

we dont hate , what posters are doing is 'rebuking'. the hate maybe from the other side 'gedolah sinas am huaretz l'talmud chacham yoser misnas akum le yisroel'. and by the way havas yisroel is not to those who desecrate the torah as stated eplicitly 1) veaha 'l'reyachsa'. reyacha bemitzvos' 2) prek arvei psochim...if we see one desecrtaing a mtzvoh, kol shken kol hatorah mitvah lisnoso

65

 Jul 23, 2010 at 12:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
The Torah says Says:

The Torah says to despise and loath the sin itself but not the sinner as they can always do teshuvah and become a righteous person. Its very easy since 99.9% of Jews who you say are living sinful behavior are "tinok shenishba" and are not chiav for anything while your judgement and condemnation of them is a sin equal to murder.

where does the torah say such thing?? what the gemmorah broches 10a refers to is an ehrlicher yid who happens to sin 'hanoch bar yonim'means hot heas not risei yiroel that dove hamelech in tilim andin the amide you say mmeheirah yikareisin and that means not thos who desecrate,dont belive torah mosinei do things lehaces to show which udaism" on them the gemmorah says 'MORIDIN VELO MALIN'

66

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