Jerusalem - Israel Bank Chief Warns Ultra-Orthodox: Get a Job |
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Photo ilustrationJerusalem - God himself labored for six days before resting on the Sabbath—but at least two-thirds of Israel’s ultra-orthodox Jewish men aren’t working at all, and it’s becoming a major economic problem.
The governor of Israel’s central bank warned on Monday that the rising number of ultra-orthodox men who refuse to join the workforce could trigger “social conflict” unless they take a lesson from the Bible and get to work.
Israel’s robust economy, fueled by a generation of high-tech entrepreneurs, has helped the “Start-Up Nation” weather the global recession ahead of the U.S. and Europe. Also, Israel earlier this year won admission to the OECD, the exclusive club of the world’s top economies. Israel’s expenditure on R&D, at nearly 5 percent of Gross Domestic Product, is the highest in the world and its booming technology sector has brought enviable economic growth and stability at a time of global crisis.
But the growing ultra-orthodox population, their deepening poverty, noninvolvement in the labor force and private school system that encourages a nonproductive, scholarly lifestyle, could threaten the country’s future economic stability.
Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer told reporters on Monday that poverty was still a major challenge among Israeli Arabs and ultra-orthodox Jews.
He said that while poverty is falling among Israeli Arabs, who make up 20 percent of the country’s population, it is increasing among the 10 percent of Israelis who are ultra-orthodox. That’s largely because of an agreement allowing religious students exemption from military service that over half a century has mushroomed into almost an entire community living off the state. In order to claim the exemption, seminary students must remain at their studies until age 28.
The problem has become a major issue in political power-play between the secular majority parties and the tiny religious parties that hold the balance of power in Israel’s fragile government coalitions. The 700,000 ultra-orthodox among Israel’s population of 7.5 million are Israel’s poorest sector. They have large families, with an average of nearly seven children per couple. Sixty percent of the community lives below the poverty line and the proportion is rising.
“This is not sustainable,” warned Fischer. “We can’t have an ever-increasing proportion of the population continuing to not go to work. So it’s going to change, somehow or the other. The question is does that change happen in social conflict, in political conflict, or can it be helped to happen consensually and constructively?”
“Around 70 percent of the men don’t work in the formal labor force. This is an absolute guarantee of being poor, if you don’t work,” Fischer said. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi [ultra-orthodox] community—there, they work,” Fischer said. “It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.”
He said government incentives encouraging haredi students to claim welfare contributed to the problem and required a change in government policy. Last month, Israel’s Supreme Court ruled that giving stipends to needy seminary students while denying them to secular university students is illegal. Religious parties have vowed to change the law.
Fischer’s views are shared by Dan Ben-David, director of the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel, who says nonemployment in the ultra-orthodox sector has skyrocketed in recent years. Ben-David says nearly one in five Israeli men between ages 35 and 54 are not part of the labor force—60 percent higher than the average among nations in the OECD.
“People say that the haredim don’t work, that it’s a religious or a cultural thing, but that isn’t true,” Ben-David said. “Thirty years ago they did work. Then, the rate of nonemployment was 21 percent. Now it’s 65 percent. It grew threefold.”
“It is still possible to change direction,” he added. “The government must understand the implications of these trends and adopt a comprehensive program to change them without delay,”
The OECD highlighted the problem in accepting Israel to its ranks, urging “profound policy changes” and “efforts to encourage the Haredim to strengthen their vocational skills as part of a drive for a more self-sufficient—and less poverty-ridden—balance between religious worship and work.”
But Moshe Gafni, chairman of the Finance Committee of Israel’s Knesset parliament and a legislator for the ultra-orthodox United Torah Judaism Party, told a government conference on religious sector employment last month that it was Bible study by haredim that had saved Israel from the global economic crisis.
“The haredim, who 30 years ago were foretold as the market’s ruination, have prospered, and with them Israel, which suffered last from the global recession and was the first to recover. I would say this is a case of divine providence,” Gafni said.
He said the low work rate among the ultra-orthodox was due to employer discrimination.
“Not a day goes by that I don’t get a call from a haredi man asking me to help him find a job. What can I do? When a haredi man applies to a high-tech company he is the last one to be hired,” he said. “I can understand the employers, too. After the media paints haredim as flag-burning rioters who have to take maternity leaves all the time, why would they hire them? We are not parasites. We want to work and contribute to the gross national product, but 80 percent of those looking for work can’t find it.”
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Read Comments (81) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:09 AM isreali Says:Report as Inappropriate
What the Isreali government is not aware is that they might not work in isreal but they have full time jobs in the US. Shnoring and not having to report.
2
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:10 AM bp Says:Report as Inappropriate
The governor of Israel's central bank warned on Monday that the rising number of ultra-orthodox men who refuse to join the workforce could trigger "social conflict" unless they take a lesson from the Bible and get to work.
3
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:12 AM sichel brosh Says:Report as Inappropriate
Man your mistaken, you might be a bank chief but far from a scholar
Man was created right before Shabbos to show that work is after Shabbos not before, so you should be a shomer shabbos before talking about what comes first.
4
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:14 AM Torah Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
What Gafni is saying is complete and total rubbish! I am “Chareidi” and used to be an executive at Amdocs, one of the largest high tech companies in Israel. I had hundreds of people in my organization and would have loved to higher Frum Chareidi employees. They were not to be found! The people that did want jobs had no formal education and had an attitude that they have a “Torahdika Kup” and could do anything. I don’t doubt their intelligence but their Kup did not provide them with an deep understanding of Telecommunications or Java and C#. I applaud the drive for Benei Torah to enter the business world, but we must provide training to make that happen. A 3 month crash course in computer science won’t cut it in most cases. This is not the case with the “Dati” crowd that flourishes in high tech in Eretz Yisrael. Just as the “Kippa Seruga” crowd is not discriminated against because of their political right leanings, so too the Charedi crowd is not discriminated (in the work force) because of their political leaning… they just need to be educated and there needs to be cultural training that is unfortunately lacking in our community.
5
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:20 AM Lekish Bear Says:Report as Inappropriate
What apikorsis in the first sentence of this aricle. G-d did not "labor" for even one second to create the universe. Maybe he should go to a Haredi school and become educated.
6
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:24 AM arbeiter Says:Report as Inappropriate
ye ye truly right a country cannot exist without labors, imagine yourself 65% of american jewry kvetching the bench in kolel ...
7
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:26 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
If they would change the policy about the draft that charidim are exempt like charidi women you'll see a big difference in the labor force TRY IT
8
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:30 AM Torah Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
To #5: Apikorses? I’m afraid we see the product of your Charedi education in your post. The word “labor” means to work. How do you understand the Passuk of VaYechul (Beraishis 2:1), “By the seventh day HaShem completed his work… and He abstained on the seventh day for all His work…?
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Jul 21, 2010 at 10:30 AM formally Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What apikorsis in the first sentence of this aricle. G-d did not "labor" for even one second to create the universe. Maybe he should go to a Haredi school and become educated. ”
it is a figure of speech, stop complaining read the article and say something about the article argument
10
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:38 AM Milhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA.
11
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:38 AM Ich shaym zich oych nisht Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What the Isreali government is not aware is that they might not work in isreal but they have full time jobs in the US. Shnoring and not having to report. ”
“ What the Isreali government is not aware is that they might not work in Israel but they have full time jobs in the US. Shnoring and not having to report. ”
Your comments are disgusting and discriminatory and shows u did not read last sentence of the article but just to embarrass yiddin one day after Tisha B'av with sinas chinom. Shame on u and the family that brought u into the world. How many Collectors come here in comparison to 28% of Israel population? All studies have shown that 70-80% of Israeli employers would rather higher Arabs than Chareidim. Who is at fault are the so called Chareidi leaders who have chosen to preclude basic study skills from their schools . They are to blame like the so called Lakewood and Brooklyn Mechanchim who do not give their children ( I know from my grandchildren at best so called
elementary yeshivas) basic skills. They have murdered these children. Instead of worrying about concerts they should organize businesses and employment offices to help their chassidim and
bring businesses to the communities. If the American Jewish Congress and others just closed their doors , the outlook for money from abroad is over. That is the solution.
12
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If they would change the policy about the draft that charidim are exempt like charidi women you'll see a big difference in the labor force TRY IT ”
WHY SHOULD THEY BE?! They get the benefits of living in Israel, they have to contribute and part of that is doing a tour in the armed forces. This whole entitlement attitude is sickening.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 10:48 AM iish emmes says Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What Gafni is saying is complete and total rubbish! I am “Chareidi” and used to be an executive at Amdocs, one of the largest high tech companies in Israel. I had hundreds of people in my organization and would have loved to higher Frum Chareidi employees. They were not to be found! The people that did want jobs had no formal education and had an attitude that they have a “Torahdika Kup” and could do anything. I don’t doubt their intelligence but their Kup did not provide them with an deep understanding of Telecommunications or Java and C#. I applaud the drive for Benei Torah to enter the business world, but we must provide training to make that happen. A 3 month crash course in computer science won’t cut it in most cases. This is not the case with the “Dati” crowd that flourishes in high tech in Eretz Yisrael. Just as the “Kippa Seruga” crowd is not discriminated against because of their political right leanings, so too the Charedi crowd is not discriminated (in the work force) because of their political leaning… they just need to be educated and there needs to be cultural training that is unfortunately lacking in our community. ”
“ What Gafni is saying is complete and total rubbish! " While I wish you were right-that is not true but I agree about the training. All studies in Israel and abroad have shown that the majority of businesses in Israel will discriminate against charedim in the workplace. Do u deny that the IDF for many years discriminated against all religious soldiers although the Hesder and nahal chareidi has changed this in rent years? These studies are less than a year old. Your position is uniques with a strong cacademic background..
14
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
In order to claim the exemption, seminary students must remain at their studies until age 28 says it all
15
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:50 AM shimonyehuda Says:Report as Inappropriate
didnt the satmar rebbi ask his people to be self supporting?
16
Jul 21, 2010 at 10:55 AM berel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ To #5: Apikorses? I’m afraid we see the product of your Charedi education in your post. The word “labor” means to work. How do you understand the Passuk of VaYechul (Beraishis 2:1), “By the seventh day HaShem completed his work… and He abstained on the seventh day for all His work…? ”
you are the ignorant..,'labor' here is just a figure of speech.'bdvar hashem shomayim nansu'
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Jul 21, 2010 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Gafni's comment illustrates the problem. Employers want to make money, they could care less what you have on your head. I worked in hi-tech in Israel and the problem with the few Israeli haredi applicants we had was their lack of secular education.In hi-tech even if you are self taught and have certification you need English skills. In America this obvivously isn't a problem and we had many charedi olim from anglo countries with very shtark backgrounds who nevertheless had basic math and fluent English skills.
Until the education system changes a litte in Israel there will continue to be plenty of charedim in hi-tech but they will all be olim.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 11:04 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
If a person isn't fit to go into the army, no matter how much they want to, the army doesn't allow it. In the same way, some (many) of the people who are learning ad infinitum are not fit to be doing so. They will not become the kind of people who can protect us with what they have learned, the same way that some people cannot become the kind of soldiers who can protect us with their strength or military knowledge. The Rebbeim in charge should take responsibility for this-with power does indeed come responsibility and if the Rebbeim are worthy to have power they should do what is right. Most of these full time learners are getting a free ride on the backs of the young Jewish men who are keeping them safe.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 11:06 AM Lekish Bear Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ To #5: Apikorses? I’m afraid we see the product of your Charedi education in your post. The word “labor” means to work. How do you understand the Passuk of VaYechul (Beraishis 2:1), “By the seventh day HaShem completed his work… and He abstained on the seventh day for all His work…? ”
Do you know that the universe was created by "asora mamorois" Just by hashen speaking - no "labor" Labor is defined as hard physical work which is not appropriate when speaking about Hashem.
20
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:07 AM Use Your Head Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ “ What the Isreali government is not aware is that they might not work in Israel but they have full time jobs in the US. Shnoring and not having to report. ”
Your comments are disgusting and discriminatory and shows u did not read last sentence of the article but just to embarrass yiddin one day after Tisha B'av with sinas chinom. Shame on u and the family that brought u into the world. How many Collectors come here in comparison to 28% of Israel population? All studies have shown that 70-80% of Israeli employers would rather higher Arabs than Chareidim. Who is at fault are the so called Chareidi leaders who have chosen to preclude basic study skills from their schools . They are to blame like the so called Lakewood and Brooklyn Mechanchim who do not give their children ( I know from my grandchildren at best so called
elementary yeshivas) basic skills. They have murdered these children. Instead of worrying about concerts they should organize businesses and employment offices to help their chassidim and
bring businesses to the communities. If the American Jewish Congress and others just closed their doors , the outlook for money from abroad is over. That is the solution. ”
"All studies have shown that 70-80% of Israeli employers would rather *higher* Arabs than Chareidim."
I wonder why.....
21
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:07 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
Yes, I agree that there is a minority of people who can really help Israel by learning Torah for the benefit of the country. But I think the majority of people who are learning do not fit into this category. In addition, I know you might not believe this, but there are even modern orthodox young men who could fit into this category-but they don't feel right doing so.
22
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:09 AM I'm just being honest Says:Report as Inappropriate
It's the fault of the Rebbunim who keep the chraidem isolated and "don't" let them develop their own unique self esteem and talents...they end up scared to deviate from
their own circles, and since their own circles don't offer them any parnassa training except to be a maggid shiuir, so they end up with nothing....
23
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:10 AM Boochie Says:Report as Inappropriate
We need to start Torah based trade schools like they have in America - I am sure classes would fill up before you turn the lights on if only the Rabbis were on board ...
24
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I've been in Israel for about 3 months ago and i see everyone had a job, some ppl full time and some part time, and they working vary hard to bring home
some ₪
25
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:13 AM iish emmes says to millhouse Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
Milhouse -u are right but answer two questions. The army has stated there "is a shortage" due to chilonim not having kids in the last 25 years. Israel should hire Arabs for the army? Who will serve?
and should soldiers get preference to others? Secondly, Israel is a highly tech producing economy, who would hire 2,500,000 (kein yirbu!) chariedim witthout skills. America is a much more diverse economy.
Please answer the tzveee kashis?
26
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:14 AM Cadd9 Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
This has all been addressed by the Tal commision.
At the age of 24 hareidim can choose to do a year of national service in lieu of military service with a minimal salary. This national service can be performed at many charities. Zaka ,Yad Sarah, Shuvu etc.
They have the option of a four month military service.
It doesn't take a few years. It is four months of being mashgiach in a military kithchen.
Let's have the fact straight before we debate.
27
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
are the charidim of isreal the welfare receipents like many here and to those who wish to change them please dont use a four letter word that is forbiden in lakewood-W-O-R-K.
28
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:16 AM Nachman Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What apikorsis in the first sentence of this aricle. G-d did not "labor" for even one second to create the universe. Maybe he should go to a Haredi school and become educated. ”
We say every Shabbos from pesukim of braishis "Vayechal Elo-- bayom Hashviei mikol Melachto ashe Oso". Lets Just say Ficher calls Melachto Labor.
Not an Apikoros.
Of course we know that Beasoro Mamoros Nivra Haolom.
and the world Legabai Hashem is really nothing. and there is really nothing but Hashem.
29
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:16 AM formally Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
But Moshe Gafni, chairman of the Finance Committee of Israel’s Knesset parliament and a legislator for the ultra-orthodox United Torah Judaism Party, told a government conference on religious sector employment last month that it was Bible study by haredim that had saved Israel from the global economic crisis
they must have been thinking of Canad too, since they also avoided the financial crises. Maybe he should ask for some money from Canada since only because of Kollel guys did they avoid financial crisis
30
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:22 AM shlomo zalman Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
Army service learning Torah full time is self contradictory. Hesder yeshivas provide an opportunity to serve in the army for 14-18 months and learn when not in active service. The chareidim would do well to utilize this system, but of course they will not. All able bodied men of army age should serve in the army. The alleged "protection" that is provided the soldiers by the Torah-learning population is very adequately fulfilled by those thousands of learning boys in Lakewood and those in Israel who are pre and post army age.
31
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:24 AM Yudi Says:Report as Inappropriate
Perhaps Stanley Fischer hasn't heard of the Kemach Foundation - www.kemach.org
They're training thousands upon thousands of Kollel men to enter the work force. Give them a few years and the demographic in Israel will change drastically.
And oh, it's founded and funded by Chareidim too...
32
Jul 21, 2010 at 11:28 AM Terrible Says:Report as Inappropriate
I've worked on outreach and this is a complaint against the 'frume' that comes up very often, some people look at us like 'Shnorers' feeding off other peoples money.
What happened to the Yisochor-Zevulun partnership?
This is a big Chilul Hashem.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 11:34 AM Eat My Shorts Says:Report as Inappropriate
I always thought the reason they don't work is because they don't go to the army or something. Has that been resolved?
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Jul 21, 2010 at 11:35 AM Yankl Says:Report as Inappropriate
Nobody is saying the obvious. While there are thousands of Talmidei Chachamim who belong in Kollel and are the future gedolim, yeshiva rebbeim and pulpit Rabbis of the future, there are many jews who do not belong there. Get them out and you will see the problem's acuteness dissipate.
There is nothing wrong with serving in the army either. All the kosher and tznius facilties do exist by now and the jews who should not be in Kollel past the first year after marriage can serve.
I live in the US and every Israeli I meet is either a commando or special forces. Well there is need for mechanics and jeep drivers and clerks too. The kollel jews can take these. Once these jews get their basic on-th-job training in the army they will be ready to take on these blue collar jobs in civilan society too.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 11:45 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
there were many solutions suggested how to deal with this problem such as vaadas tal but the nut jobs in israel right away scream tzionim triefn they have ni intrest in working that's all like stamar rov ztl said 2 thing yerushlami yidden are afraid of shkia and arbit
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Jul 21, 2010 at 11:46 AM Godol HaDor Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
Millhouse you're wrong on this one.
The chareidi population, I'm talking the ones that populate the kolleles, would not study in a "army" kollel.
For the same reason they won't take part in a sheirut leumi system.
I have meny friends who learnt in chabad yeshivas that have fulfilled their army requirement this way and while still in their 20's and are now free to pursue any career they want.
Knowing the mentality of the average chareidi "avrech'
I can say with complete confidence that they were educated, much like the chabad bochurim were in their discipline of mesirus nefesh for shlichus, to have mesirus nefesh for Torah.
This has affected the entire lifestye begining with refusing to marry someone who doesn't bring support to the table, to not living in certain, cheaper, areas etc.
I don't see a way out. The shnorrers are coming to Chu"l in larger droves asking for wedding expenses and its a lost cause.
Ask yourself, why you never see shnorrers from certain groups and the answer is, because their leaders never bought in to the "life in kollel" mentality
Until that changes it will never change.
Having said that, I will say that I was in Israel lately and I saw a lot more prosperity there, among the "frumme" than I see here in the USA.
Everybody has a direh, 3 cell phones, a nice car. They go on extended chofesh etc. Their life seems to be pretty darn good.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 12:03 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
While it's true that more Charedim should be working, the secularists aways leave out what the Charedim do bring to the Israeli economy. That is hundreds of millions of dollars in tourism from around the world in the form of the tens of thousands of charedim from around the world who visit Israel ONLY because of the Charedim. The thousands of Yeshiva and Seminary students who come to Israel with their money too, the thousands of students come on Kiruv trips/Yeshivos, etc.
Then there are the hundreds of millions put into the economy in the form of tzedakah contributions to Israeli organizations (the top ten ones all charedi) and to families.
It may not be "right" that they are being supported by Americans, but the fact remains that altogether BILLIONS of dollars flows into their economy all because of the charedim.
Contrast that to the hundreds of millions that the Israeli government loses in subsidies to the communist money losing kibbutzim.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 12:49 PM Ich shaym zich oych nisht Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Millhouse you're wrong on this one.
The chareidi population, I'm talking the ones that populate the kolleles, would not study in a "army" kollel.
For the same reason they won't take part in a sheirut leumi system.
I have meny friends who learnt in chabad yeshivas that have fulfilled their army requirement this way and while still in their 20's and are now free to pursue any career they want.
Knowing the mentality of the average chareidi "avrech'
I can say with complete confidence that they were educated, much like the chabad bochurim were in their discipline of mesirus nefesh for shlichus, to have mesirus nefesh for Torah.
This has affected the entire lifestye begining with refusing to marry someone who doesn't bring support to the table, to not living in certain, cheaper, areas etc.
I don't see a way out. The shnorrers are coming to Chu"l in larger droves asking for wedding expenses and its a lost cause.
Ask yourself, why you never see shnorrers from certain groups and the answer is, because their leaders never bought in to the "life in kollel" mentality
Until that changes it will never change.
Having said that, I will say that I was in Israel lately and I saw a lot more prosperity there, among the "frumme" than I see here in the USA.
Everybody has a direh, 3 cell phones, a nice car. They go on extended chofesh etc. Their life seems to be pretty darn good. ”
Having said that, I will say that I was in Israel lately and I saw a lot more prosperity there, among the "frumme" than I see here in the USA.
Everybody has a direh, 3 cell phones, a nice car. They go on extended chofesh etc. Their life seems to be pretty darn good. ”
U are so right ! Milhouse is usually pretty good but not this time. The majority of 2,000,000 must begin serving in an army that is missing soldiers. The success of the chareidim must continue to show all yiddin in all areas including businessthat they are the examples of the history of frum yiddin. We are at a point economically when we should be sending meshulachim to Israel. We, unfortunately need help!! Ask any yeshiva and modern day school or any shul and they are in trouble. No one in Israel will help us rest assured. They know how to take but would never give. Let us hope Hashem will help us on our own.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 12:51 PM Chaim Leibowitz Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
There are programs in the IDF for frum men. Either a hesder yeshiva or to enter nachal chareidi. Just because the majority of chareidi men think their hishtadlus should be sitting and learning doesnt mean that it is the right path. Sitting and learning should be a privelige not a right. I say keep 20% of the top guys in yeshiva and kollel. Pay those men a living wage comensurate with their family size and the rest should go and work and support those learning. Maybe then all of us will be doing out hishtadlus and bring moshiach a bit quicker.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I think it would be smart for Israeli government to encourage their charedim to move to United States in next 20-30 years. This will lessen the burden on Israeli economy and security. Their wealthy Satmar and Bobov and other brethren will be delighted to support all of these great dedicated talmidim chachomim and their extended families. They will bring Torah enlightenment to North American Torah learning institutions.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 12:55 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
All you guyes take it easy this part of anti chridi wind going on now .evry peacfull protast is called a riot .all the rabbis tel them to vendelise . Don't want to work ETC. You all know its not thru.but I understend your problem .admit it you are jalos on the values and happenes of what the chridi life style brings .in the usa you say the same on the chridim .but you know fare well
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Jul 21, 2010 at 12:57 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
The governor of Israel’s central bank is right and correct. its a machleh that charaidim in Israel dont work. Take a lesson from charaidim in the usa who work hard and run successful businesses. No kidding companies dont want to hire charadim, who would??? charaidim demonstrate all day call the police nazis and all other carzy things. it is important that charaidim become part of the work force and into human society.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:05 PM Torah Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Do you know that the universe was created by "asora mamorois" Just by hashen speaking - no "labor" Labor is defined as hard physical work which is not appropriate when speaking about Hashem. ”
Leaving out the issue that you are quoting a Midrash... how do you expalin the Passuk "Uviyom Hashivii Shovas Yyinafash". Dirah Torah Kloshon Benai Adam... as the article meant it as well...
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:08 PM M.E. Analyst Says:Report as Inappropriate
An objective look @ the total hareidy picture gives us a different outlook.
Hareidim are very agressive and succesfull businessmen. They have a drive like no ones got! They also are very good @ netwroking and enterprenership.
The problem in israel stems from the idiotic way the israeli government and the hareidy leaders created some loophole to allow hareidim not to enter army.
The only way to save the hareidim from this crazy nonworking mentality (which btw goes against orthodoxy!)Is by putting an end to this outdated settlement.
Hareidim should have higher tax rate instead of army service and the hell with it.
Or have a choice to do city jobs for 2 years.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:41 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
It's the day after TIsha B'Av and the insults are flying again on VIN. You can pretty much forget about Moshiach. The Ta'anis was in the stomach not the heart.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:44 PM esther Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
expecting the state or the majority of it's inhabitants to recognize torah as essential to the country's defense is not very realistic.and how many need to sit and learn all day for that defense anyways? i can tell you this;if my son were serving in the army,risking his life while someone else's son sat in bnai brak learning all day and i was supporting that learning with my taxes,i would be angry and resentful beyond words.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:46 PM Green Tea Says:Report as Inappropriate
Milhouse- you're usually right on target but this time I must say - way off.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:46 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ There are programs in the IDF for frum men. Either a hesder yeshiva or to enter nachal chareidi. Just because the majority of chareidi men think their hishtadlus should be sitting and learning doesnt mean that it is the right path. Sitting and learning should be a privelige not a right. I say keep 20% of the top guys in yeshiva and kollel. Pay those men a living wage comensurate with their family size and the rest should go and work and support those learning. Maybe then all of us will be doing out hishtadlus and bring moshiach a bit quicker. ”
Please explain why the taxes paid by 90 percent of the Israeli population, most of whom are not even frum, should go to support the "top 20 percent of guys in yeshiva' so they don't have to get a job. Why can't they find a balance and hold a job and learn too the way we seem to be able to do in the U.S. and the rest of the world.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I've worked on outreach and this is a complaint against the 'frume' that comes up very often, some people look at us like 'Shnorers' feeding off other peoples money.
What happened to the Yisochor-Zevulun partnership?
This is a big Chilul Hashem. ”
The partnership exists when both people agree to it. Just because a "Learner" decides to learn that does not force everyone else to support him. It is an actual partnership not some metaphysical one.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 01:56 PM Ben Kochba Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
Why should anyone recognize that Toarah Learning specifically for the time these people need to join the army is for the defense of Israel? What is wrong with the Torah learning done in the Hesder program where they learn and join the army?
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Jul 21, 2010 at 02:24 PM jancsi Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Man your mistaken, you might be a bank chief but far from a scholar
Man was created right before Shabbos to show that work is after Shabbos not before, so you should be a shomer shabbos before talking about what comes first. ”
you should of picked for youre nikname here unasheihel a no brainer you show youself to be a very ignorant person youre statement man was created before shabbas is a fantasy land story of unemanigable proportions learn science di shoite
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Jul 21, 2010 at 02:37 PM Aryeh Says:Report as Inappropriate
There are only about 91,000 Haredi men, out of a population of 7,500,000 KA"H. That is just over 1% of the overall population. How is this a major financial crisis to Israel? If 20% of all Israeli men between ages 35 - 54 aren't working, it proves that the majority of unemployed, able bodied men are NOT RELIGIOUS!!! Wake up!
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Jul 21, 2010 at 02:47 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
did you read Torah truth's story about amdocs?
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Jul 21, 2010 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I don't believe for one minute that the learning of these able bodied men is protecting Israel.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 02:59 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What Gafni is saying is complete and total rubbish! I am “Chareidi” and used to be an executive at Amdocs, one of the largest high tech companies in Israel. I had hundreds of people in my organization and would have loved to higher Frum Chareidi employees. They were not to be found! The people that did want jobs had no formal education and had an attitude that they have a “Torahdika Kup” and could do anything. I don’t doubt their intelligence but their Kup did not provide them with an deep understanding of Telecommunications or Java and C#. I applaud the drive for Benei Torah to enter the business world, but we must provide training to make that happen. A 3 month crash course in computer science won’t cut it in most cases. This is not the case with the “Dati” crowd that flourishes in high tech in Eretz Yisrael. Just as the “Kippa Seruga” crowd is not discriminated against because of their political right leanings, so too the Charedi crowd is not discriminated (in the work force) because of their political leaning… they just need to be educated and there needs to be cultural training that is unfortunately lacking in our community. ”
You used to be an executive? how many people have you highered?(HIRED)
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Jul 21, 2010 at 03:03 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ “ What the Isreali government is not aware is that they might not work in Israel but they have full time jobs in the US. Shnoring and not having to report. ”
Your comments are disgusting and discriminatory and shows u did not read last sentence of the article but just to embarrass yiddin one day after Tisha B'av with sinas chinom. Shame on u and the family that brought u into the world. How many Collectors come here in comparison to 28% of Israel population? All studies have shown that 70-80% of Israeli employers would rather higher Arabs than Chareidim. Who is at fault are the so called Chareidi leaders who have chosen to preclude basic study skills from their schools . They are to blame like the so called Lakewood and Brooklyn Mechanchim who do not give their children ( I know from my grandchildren at best so called
elementary yeshivas) basic skills. They have murdered these children. Instead of worrying about concerts they should organize businesses and employment offices to help their chassidim and
bring businesses to the communities. If the American Jewish Congress and others just closed their doors , the outlook for money from abroad is over. That is the solution. ”
"Your comments are disgusting" and completely not yiddish. Your grandchildren have a bigger handicap then not learing on the level you would like them to. They will never learn to respect our rabbanima nd the pillars of our world because of your anti- torah attitude. Stop thinking that dass bal habos" means more than Das Torah. May hashem forgive your blatant disrespect to kavod hatorah.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 03:30 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
when god threw adam out of gan eden it wasnt to go to kollel....IT WAS TO WORK!!!
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Jul 21, 2010 at 03:52 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The governor of Israel’s central bank is right and correct. its a machleh that charaidim in Israel dont work. Take a lesson from charaidim in the usa who work hard and run successful businesses. No kidding companies dont want to hire charadim, who would??? charaidim demonstrate all day call the police nazis and all other carzy things. it is important that charaidim become part of the work force and into human society. ”
you are quite right! As a Modern Orthodox Israeli Miluim fighter, I would NEVER hire a charedi who has not done his National Service. I want to stress that fact, so that it is understood by all of you.... I will NEVER hire a charedi who has not done 3 years National Service. Heck, I wouldn't even give them a ride in my car. Call it Sinat Chinam or whatever you want, but there is NO reason why I, my children or my friends should put our lives on the line, sometimes be wounded or God forbid killed, whilst this charedi sits & learns in the comfort of his yeshiva. Yes, I would prefer to hire an Arab than a non-serving charedi. Once he or she has served in Tzahal (not in some second rate charity or something), then they, the charedi, are on equal terms with all other israelis. Not a second before that. All of my colleagues feel the same way, so don't feel surprised or mis-led. Putting your lives on the line for Israel is the ONLY way into Israeli society.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 04:15 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ All you guyes take it easy this part of anti chridi wind going on now .evry peacfull protast is called a riot .all the rabbis tel them to vendelise . Don't want to work ETC. You all know its not thru.but I understend your problem .admit it you are jalos on the values and happenes of what the chridi life style brings .in the usa you say the same on the chridim .but you know fare well ”
I have a feeling that I object to the things you say but frankly I'm finding it hard to understand what you're saying. Please use a spellchecker since you seem to have so much difficulty writing in English. Thank you.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 04:31 PM Truth for grabbs Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ To #5: Apikorses? I’m afraid we see the product of your Charedi education in your post. The word “labor” means to work. How do you understand the Passuk of VaYechul (Beraishis 2:1), “By the seventh day HaShem completed his work… and He abstained on the seventh day for all His work…? ”
And how would you explain the passuk in Tehilim 34, ki hu OMAR vyahu or what it says in Avos Basaro MAMOROS nivra holam?
See the Rashi in Ki Sisa 31:17 for a better idea.
You call yourself Torah Truth, then my dear you should know the Rambam that no physical attributes can be applied to Hashem.
On the other hand, and the real truth is, that Hashem and creation is beyond our understanding, we just know Him by the virtues of what's revealed to us in His torah that he gave us. AND by the BILLIONS of evidence around us that spell out the clear idea of a Masterful Designer. The idea that Hashem "worked" DOES however show that we should work. Nevertheless, if someone is not Shomer Shabbos we scorn ANYTHING that he tires to take from the Torah as proof to his argument.. and that's a real truth.. no?
Look, if you want to use the Torah to prove your argument you can't just use the Torah for the sake of argument! The Torah is our life teacher and we live by it's rules not just some nice thoughtful set of ideas!
While any YID must have a job, and he might very well take the lesson from Hashem that's fine. However, a YID who does not live with the Torah should NOT USE it partially
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Jul 21, 2010 at 04:34 PM Torah Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You used to be an executive? how many people have you highered?(HIRED) ”
Is the only thing you can do after Tisha B’Av is look for grammatical or spelling mistakes? Seems Tisha B’Av had no impact on you… what a shame, you fasted for nothing.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 04:36 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "Your comments are disgusting" and completely not yiddish. Your grandchildren have a bigger handicap then not learing on the level you would like them to. They will never learn to respect our rabbanima nd the pillars of our world because of your anti- torah attitude. Stop thinking that dass bal habos" means more than Das Torah. May hashem forgive your blatant disrespect to kavod hatorah. ”
you are wrong ,this is not daas torah,the torah requires a man to support his wife and family and he agrees to it by signing the kesubah.only in certain cases that are out of the ordinary may a man decide together with his spouse to go on charity and he will learn full time.....to raise an entire generation on charity and call it daas torah ia absurd
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Jul 21, 2010 at 05:10 PM Chaim Leibowitz Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Please explain why the taxes paid by 90 percent of the Israeli population, most of whom are not even frum, should go to support the "top 20 percent of guys in yeshiva' so they don't have to get a job. Why can't they find a balance and hold a job and learn too the way we seem to be able to do in the U.S. and the rest of the world. ”
Maybe I wasnt clear. I didnt mean that the government should be supporting them. We as a community who support limud hatorah would support them with the money that is now spent on the hundred percent.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 05:23 PM No sichel brosh Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Man your mistaken, you might be a bank chief but far from a scholar
Man was created right before Shabbos to show that work is after Shabbos not before, so you should be a shomer shabbos before talking about what comes first. ”
Really in MY torah it says: Sheishes Yomim Taavod vaseisah kol melachtechah, v'yom hasveiei L'eilokechah; Six days you should work and the seventh day is for hashem, how does it read in your version????
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Jul 21, 2010 at 05:35 PM Anti Lekish Bear Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What apikorsis in the first sentence of this aricle. G-d did not "labor" for even one second to create the universe. Maybe he should go to a Haredi school and become educated. ”
My version of the Torah says in parshas Bereishis: Vayichal Elokim bayom hashviei MELACHTO asher asah, Vayisbos bayom hashviei mi'kol MELACHTO asher asah, Vayevaraich elokim es yom hashviei vy'kadeish oso, ki vo shavas mi'kol MELACHTO asher bara Elokim Laaso's. What's in your version, was the word Melacto removed, or did you change the meaning?
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Jul 21, 2010 at 06:34 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ you are quite right! As a Modern Orthodox Israeli Miluim fighter, I would NEVER hire a charedi who has not done his National Service. I want to stress that fact, so that it is understood by all of you.... I will NEVER hire a charedi who has not done 3 years National Service. Heck, I wouldn't even give them a ride in my car. Call it Sinat Chinam or whatever you want, but there is NO reason why I, my children or my friends should put our lives on the line, sometimes be wounded or God forbid killed, whilst this charedi sits & learns in the comfort of his yeshiva. Yes, I would prefer to hire an Arab than a non-serving charedi. Once he or she has served in Tzahal (not in some second rate charity or something), then they, the charedi, are on equal terms with all other israelis. Not a second before that. All of my colleagues feel the same way, so don't feel surprised or mis-led. Putting your lives on the line for Israel is the ONLY way into Israeli society. ”
Dear Brother,
I am an American who appreciates your candor, grammar, and particularly your service to Eretz Yisroel. It is because of you that we are even able to have such a discussion. Thank you!!!
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Jul 21, 2010 at 06:43 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ “ What the Isreali government is not aware is that they might not work in Israel but they have full time jobs in the US. Shnoring and not having to report. ”
Your comments are disgusting and discriminatory and shows u did not read last sentence of the article but just to embarrass yiddin one day after Tisha B'av with sinas chinom. Shame on u and the family that brought u into the world. How many Collectors come here in comparison to 28% of Israel population? All studies have shown that 70-80% of Israeli employers would rather higher Arabs than Chareidim. Who is at fault are the so called Chareidi leaders who have chosen to preclude basic study skills from their schools . They are to blame like the so called Lakewood and Brooklyn Mechanchim who do not give their children ( I know from my grandchildren at best so called
elementary yeshivas) basic skills. They have murdered these children. Instead of worrying about concerts they should organize businesses and employment offices to help their chassidim and
bring businesses to the communities. If the American Jewish Congress and others just closed their doors , the outlook for money from abroad is over. That is the solution. ”
The final two thirds of your post are spot-on! The first third is merely stooping to the level you seek to condemn. You are better than that sinas chinam is wrong but sinas chinam for the sake of fighting sinas chinam is equally wrong.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 10:20 PM Anon Ibid Opcit Says:Report as Inappropriate
For crying out loud. "The man who doesn't teach his son a trade teaches him to steal." "A man should first learn a trade, build a house, plant a vine and only after that find a wife."
Every penny able-bodied kollel schnorrers spend takes food from the mouths of responsible people who work for a living. There should definitely be job training or real education for them. If jobs simply aren't there or a person is incapable of working there should be government assistance. Beyond that, if you don't work, you don't eat. If you have breed children in litters and refuse to provide for them you shouldn't have them.
It really is that simple.
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Jul 21, 2010 at 11:48 PM GREAT Says:Report as Inappropriate
At least he has the temerity to tell the truth.
By eliminating all support to Kollel "timewasters" they will have to go to work. The Gemure says 1 in 1000 grow up "YOITZE LEHOIRUE" do you expect a better statistic in Bnei Brak or Jerusalem?
Where are all the GEOINIM? if 50000 young men learn, then 50 GEOINIM should grow up each generation. A generation is about 15 years. SO can you name 50 geoinim who grew up in last 50 years in Israel? ADRABE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Satmarer Rebbe, Divrei Yoel, Z"L, did not want a Kolel until he was literally forced into it! He said "he want ehrliche balei batim" HOW SMART A TZADIK HE WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jul 22, 2010 at 12:27 AM zionist Says:Report as Inappropriate
The Charedim have nothing against work. The problem is they dont have time to work because (nebach) the Goverment forces them to burn garbage cans.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 01:15 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
You're all forgetting the requirement of joining the military if you're going to work. Fortunately Yeshiva men are exempt from the military. There isn't a problem of Ultra Orthodox men not wanting to work any where else in the world.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 08:58 AM anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
There a plenty in Israel who never served in the Army and achieve high earnings. You must have a marketable skill and kreiseln did peyes , look at the picture is not a marketable skill
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Jul 22, 2010 at 09:04 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I am amazed at the number of people that feels that work is important.
Dont get me wrong. I do too. Its just that I thought this site is a chareidi website and not working would be defended by the majority of readers.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 09:54 AM Chossid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am amazed at the number of people that feels that work is important.
Dont get me wrong. I do too. Its just that I thought this site is a chareidi website and not working would be defended by the majority of readers. ”
Work is not important. Parnossah is.
If these Yeshiva leit were self sufficient or supported mainly through voluntary donations nobody would say a word.
The problem is that the whole thing is paid for by welfare, itself financed by taxes levied by force from people who don't want, and feel that neither they nor the nation need these kollelim.
It is not too far-fetched to say that the whole Israeli kollel system is financed by chillul shabbos etc. and paid for mainly by mechalelei Shabbos.
I work. I don't like it. If I win the lottery I will stop working. But I have to support my wife and family, pay the mortgage and school fees and run the car etc. Nobody else will pay it all for me so I have to do it myself. If you can find somebody who will pay it all for me I will go into a kollel now, this minute.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 10:26 AM Anon Ibid Opcit Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You're all forgetting the requirement of joining the military if you're going to work. Fortunately Yeshiva men are exempt from the military. There isn't a problem of Ultra Orthodox men not wanting to work any where else in the world. ”
And why shouldn't they serve like everyone else? If they can crouch in their schools muttering Aramaic it is only due to the courage of the IDF. Every breath the Black Hats take is due to the sacrifice of better men and women than they who risk their lives, grow the food, build the homes and drive the buses. The lowliest completely secular private who goes on to get a job digging ditches is worth infinitely more than all the "learners" feeding his brood off charity. The ditch-digger actually produces something of value and was willing to die to protect the lives of Jews.
The haredim take everything and contribute nothing.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 10:37 AM Baruch Bendit Says:Report as Inappropriate
Kollel Judaism is a form of racism.
There needs to be "term limits" for the majority of the "Avreichem". Except for the best of the best, it should be "two years and out!".
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Jul 22, 2010 at 12:58 PM Stanley Fischer is not a Moron Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If he thinks that haredim simply "refuse to join the workforce" he's a moron. “This is not a problem in the United States among the haredi community—there, they work...It is a problem in Israel. The question is why.” The answer is obvious: in the USA, once someone's family is big enough that he needs to leave kollel and support it, he can go straight out and get a job. In Israel he can't get a job until he's first gone to the army. He needs the job now, not in a few years. So his incentive to enter the system in the first place is much diminished. It makes more sense to stay in kollel and scrape by.
If he wants to solve the problem, all Israel needs to do is recognise that Torah is essential to the country's defense, and therefore allow men to do their army service learning Torah full time, in a military yeshivah, for the benefit of the country. That way when the time comes to leave kollel, after five or six years of learning, they will be able to get a job immediately and they will do so just as they do in the USA. ”
It's kind of hard to tell someone that while your children fight and die on the front lines we will be doing our part by sitting in a Beis Medrish. Throughout Jewish history we have had religious Jews on the front lines. The reason the it's hard now to be Frum in the army is because their are so little Frum people in the army. If there was a collective decision to set up multiple Frum units with tens of thousands of soldiers it would be a lot easier to be Frum in the military. While some generals may be against it because it takes power from them, I bet the average Israeli would jump at the chance to only serve 2 years instead of the 3 years now.
What it comes down to is no Rav wants the achriyis of Bitel Torah on his head. Therefore, no Rav will ever propose leaving the Beis Medrish for work training, employment or even Army service. It's going to happen naturally as the Charadim grow and the Isreali Gov. no longer has the resources to support them. It's starting now and we better be ready.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 02:12 PM actual Jew Says:Report as Inappropriate
this (and the terrible economy) is why i stopped writing checks to these people long ago. only yeshiva tuition, my shul and my local Chabad for helping makarv me to yiddishkeit. other than that, get a job. i have two and my wife does too.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Do you know that the universe was created by "asora mamorois" Just by hashen speaking - no "labor" Labor is defined as hard physical work which is not appropriate when speaking about Hashem. ”
Similar to what you posted earlier--Hashem didn't "work"--Hashem didn't "speak" either.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 04:14 PM Officer, SBJC Says:Report as Inappropriate
The following is related to Tisha B'Av and this thread. Up front, I acknowledge that the the following is not a standard interpretation of scripture. I have heard it said of the spies that their underlying intension was not to sin by lying and misleading the people. Israel was at an extreme high level of spiritual being--they were learning Torah from Moshe Rabbeinu. Thus, they had no reason to work since Hashem provided them all their physical needs. The one thing that the spies feared was giving up this spiritual state by entering Israel where they would have to both "conquer" and "work" the land as commanded by Hashem through Moshe and the Torah. The spies would have to allocate time for both war and working. It appears that many Haredim fail to fulfil this Biblical obligation by their not participating in the IDF ("conquering the land") nor being employed ("working the land"). They, just like the spies, appear to be fearful of giving up even a bit of their studies. If they had true emunah in Hashem, they would have no such fears.
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Jul 22, 2010 at 05:28 PM yid Says:Report as Inappropriate
people should be taught a trade in yeshiva besides learning gemarrah the whole day!
look at chassidei satmar! ok , they aren`t very educated but almost all work...