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Lakewood, NJ - Rift Widens: Orthodox Jewish Leaders Want Abuse Accusations Addressed

Published on: August 25, 2010 10:21 AM
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Lakewood, NJ - One man’s criminal accusation that a teacher molested his young son has widened the rift in the Orthodox Jewish community over where religious rights stop and the justice system begins.

Some inside the tight-knit enclave praised the child’s father for bypassing religious protocols last year and reporting the alleged attack first to Ocean County prosecutors. Others believe he committed a sin because he failed to get permission from a rabbinic court before pressing charges against a fellow Jew.

“The first step is to go to rabbis,’’ said Rabbi Shmuel Meir Katz, a senior Dayan, or decider of Jewish law. He teaches at Beth Medrash Govoha, a yeshiva in Lakewood that is one of the foremost Jewish universities in the world. “We have our own system. We have our own laws, and as long as the Bais Din (rabbinical tribunal) feels competent on taking care of something themselves, that’s our surest recourse in our circles.’‘

Read full story at Asbury Park Press 



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1

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:26 AM Anonymous Says:

"The first step is to go to rabbis,’’ said Rabbi Shmuel Meir Katz, a senior Dayan, or decider of Jewish law"

This has to be the biggest chilul hashem one can imagine during chodesh Elul. Rather than acknowledging the the "go to the rabbi" guidance has been the single biggest impediment in the frum community to fighting child abuse and sexual molestation, he suggests perpetuating this behavior which he knows will protect the abusers. Why does Rav Katz deliberately seek to avoid dealing with the problem? Who is he trying to protect? If you have any concerns about child abuse, GO TO THE POLICE IMMEDIATELY. Do not waste time calling your rov or posek. Its not the jewish way to protect child abusers no matter what this rav may say to protect his colleagues.

2

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:31 AM victem Says:

Although I was molested several times , I do agree that we have a torah, and that's overiding our emotions, but its dificult to ask people who don't think they the bes din is competent to not go to the DA, the responsibilty is on the bes din to show they can handle such cases, then it will be easier to convince the people not to go to court.

3

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:39 AM Nobama Says:

Going to beis din for an abuse case, is like going to an accountant for surgery! :-( Bais Din simply do not have the knowledge and/or means to deal with these cases. Nebach no one should have to deal with this situation, but bais din with all due respect simply isnt the address.

4

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Yea right, rabbi Katz spoke to APP...;) besides rabbi forschimer disagrees.

5

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:50 AM sweetener Says:

jjust go to the police and stop wasting time with rabbonim

6

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM Victim Says:

I don't evenn know what to make of this article. Its all over the place . All I can say is we need to send abusers and wanna be abusers the message that you no longer can get away with hurting our children . Its high time that we lock these people and drug pushers BEHIND BARS with no rachmonis and no sweeping under the rrug .

8

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:58 AM yosher Says:

Bais din in our times has no police or enforcement personnel. Would Rabbi Katz also demand jurisdiction over buglaries, rape and murder cases? Does he understand the pathology of a pedophile and the indelible damage he wreaks on his victims? Has he ever taken courses in this chochmah? or does he think that his life experiences are adequate training? maybe Dr. Katz, M.D. since he certainly saw illness and its cures during his lifetime. This arrogance of overstepping the mandate of Lakewood's Daas Torah to areas of absolute incompetence should stop.

9

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:07 AM CountryYossi Says:

I am NOT a poysek so i dont know what the haluche is . All i know is the Rabbi who went to jail for 32 years is because the Rabunim in his community ignored the complaints from parents who their kids were victims of his behavior. It comes a time when a parent gets so hurt seeing what happened to their child and the community is hiding this problem. I strongly believe that there should be set up a seperate bes-din who will handle ONLY those type of cases and all rabunim from the tri state area should be part of this bes-din . They should investigate and punish those molesters and NO shul in the community should allow them back as a mispalel then maybe we can solve this problem. Till this wont happen do NOT blame any parent who turns to the District attorney for help and prosecution...

10

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:07 AM Anonymous Says:

It's too bad that nowadays our bet din doesn't have the power to prosecute these child molesters.

11

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Do the rabbis have the force to stop a molester??!!!

12

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:12 AM BenGrey Says:

It depends if we see a beginning and an end point to Daas Torah. Are the Gedolim are meant to tell us if we call the police when are children are molested, or are we 'allowed' to opine for ourselves that if a crime is committed against a member of our family, we call the police asap.

13

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:17 AM Rabbi Says:

The Bais Din and Rabbinic authority has shown that time and time again they are unable to protect our children from these Monsters that are harming our children. Yashar Kaoch to the father who went to the authorities. Maybe these people will finally be taken away from our children

14

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:21 AM Michel Says:

Bais Din has proven ineffective in dealing with pedophiles. They dont put them in Cherem, do not accept the testimony of a Katan (the child molested), no matter how many of them testify, and do not accept forensic circumstantial evidence, so why bother going to BD in the first place? According to Torah law, they have claimed for example in the elder Kolko case, that without penetration ,(and perhaps ejaculation), there is no Mishkav Zuchor. Well, that doesnt fly in todays times. Any improper touching is illegal, immoral, and ruinous to the child. I am surprised at R' Belsky for taking such a literal approcah. He should acknowledge that BD today does not have the tools to properly stop this kind of behavior and immediatley permit going to Arcoas in these cases.

15

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:22 AM BinderDundat Says:

Yes the first step is to go to the rabbis so they can threaten you to shut up. Face it, when it comes to this and other important issues, your "system" doesn't work. You "rabbis" have proven time and time again, that you will always protect the child abusers and molestors, wife beaters, etc.

16

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:24 AM username Says:

These days people have no confidence that Batei Din will protect the child or the family. It is a shame when parents feel they have to choose between following "Daas Torah" and protecting their child, but it is the community's fault when the kavod of the accused is considered more important.

17

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:26 AM Anonymous Says:

I read the whole story, and even according to the, biased, writer there is not a single ordained Rabbi in Lakewood in support of going to the authorities prior to going to a beth din.

Kodus to them.

The so called community leaders who are supporting Mesira are simple Balei Batim who have no experience an this issue,

18

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:33 AM tell me Says:

Reply to #1  
Says:

"The first step is to go to rabbis,’’ said Rabbi Shmuel Meir Katz, a senior Dayan, or decider of Jewish law"

This has to be the biggest chilul hashem one can imagine during chodesh Elul. Rather than acknowledging the the "go to the rabbi" guidance has been the single biggest impediment in the frum community to fighting child abuse and sexual molestation, he suggests perpetuating this behavior which he knows will protect the abusers. Why does Rav Katz deliberately seek to avoid dealing with the problem? Who is he trying to protect? If you have any concerns about child abuse, GO TO THE POLICE IMMEDIATELY. Do not waste time calling your rov or posek. Its not the jewish way to protect child abusers no matter what this rav may say to protect his colleagues.

On what authority are you speaking, why should people consider listening to you, an anonymous bloger?

I'd rather listen to Rabonim who have a history of standing behind their word.

ALWAYS CONSULT DAAS TORAH BEFORE REPORTING!!!

19

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:35 AM kispista Says:

i too am a victom and i say go to the police since beis din is a tottaly impotant place to go to they just procrastinate waste precious time and at the end they dont agree out of shame to still go to the authorities even if they find that there is a valid reason

20

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:35 AM jerusalem Says:

Yes, when the Mikdash stands and the Sanhendrin holds court alongside the Avodah. Otherwise, my friends, justice is a free for all, and heavily influenced by politics. In fact, a bais din for this matter as the Dayan suggested could be simply three kosher men, and as the dayan well knows, the sentence carried out for such a wrong assuming the guilty party is caught and they have the right one before them, and that the crime is of the most heinous sort as the article suggests, would land everyone in jail!!! We the Jewish people are not impressed with the Rabbinical response on these matters, and look forward to the day when true justice reigns supreme under the One G-D of Israel. Until that day it would be a huge aveirah not to do everything in our power to protect our precious children from these predatory vipers and we are ashamed that our leaders have been unwilling or unable to do so thus far.

21

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:42 AM Barry521 Says:

I wonder what these Rabbim would do if it was their children, or grand children? Would they throw a party and give attributes to the abuser? This is pure insanity.
Whe will we have HONEST RIGHTEOUS MEN IN Rabbinnic positions who will stand up to the high standards of TORAH, and not bastardize our religion.
If only these Rabbis counseling not going to the police experience the pediphe harming them and abuseing them with a poke in the rear, maybe they wfould change their minds

22

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Rabbis are impotent and incompetent to handle serious sex offender cases.

The Rabbis are more likely to attack the victims and their supporters and protect the serial sex offenders.

They are wrong, shame on them.

23

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:44 AM 27102710 Says:

Lakewood is known to ignore

24

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:47 AM Heard Otherwise Says:

Interesting but I heard from a very competent and senior Rav the halacha otherwise. He says, in case of any sort of criminal abuse (child, spousal etc) go to the police FIRST.
What is the BD going to do with a criminal offender anyways.
Anybody heard similar?

25

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Molestation is kidnapping etc

26

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Bais Din is the proper way to go, no matter in what case or situatuation. However, the way botai din in our days, our so called leaders today who most of them forgot the posuk לא תכיר פנים בדין there are cases when a parent says "I can't trust them. I have to go to the police."
This is not a Din Torah of financial or likewise matters.

27

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:55 AM Aryeh Says:

As a victim of this type of abuse by a parent, I speak from experience. We have an obligation to go to the Beis Din first. Our rules are not like theirs for a reason, and no matter what the emotions involved, far more profound and effective punishment can be inflicted by the Beis Din, than a goyishe court system.

28

 Aug 25, 2010 at 12:06 PM Anonymous Says:

The gentleman did the right thing in going immediately to the prosecutors. Years ago, the OU and its affiliate NCSY, ignored repeated complaints about a serial abuser, who was a Rabbi at a day school. Finally, after 25 years, he was indicted for physically abusing a female student. He was tried, convicted, and sentenced to seven years, by a New Jersey criminal court. He served over five and a half years. The entire episode cost the OU plenty in legal bills, and civil judgements. If they had acted upon the complaints years ago, and performed background checks on their staff, many of these problems could have been avoided.

29

 Aug 25, 2010 at 12:07 PM yosher Says:

Nebach! Look how Lakewood's Rabbonim have sullied emunas chachomim.

30

 Aug 25, 2010 at 12:09 PM ChasidicTzioni Says:

The institution of beis din today is purely for civil financial issues and marriage issues. Nobody goes to a beis din for burglary or murder etc. And no poisek would say go to beis din for those issues. Beis din today has no practical knowledge for dealing with issues of dinei nefoshos. One "new" beis din after another opens up with the exclamation that they are the "real" thing, that they are a "new and improved" version. Only to fall into the trap of becoming biased or bought off or whatever. We're in an era of Sefer Shoftim, when chazal said shfot hashoftim, people judged the judges. Chazal say that a dayan who has no idea of all the minutae laws of gittin and kiddushin should not have anything to do with these issues. BH generally this has been accepted throughout all our communities. Just as there are rabbonim who specialize in gittin so should there be rabbonim that specialize in child molestation or any type of family abuse. And since this seems to be practically improbable, these cases should go to the secular courts. They have the knowledge and the teeth to do something about it.

31

 Aug 25, 2010 at 12:44 PM Anonymous Says:

To number 4 when did rabbi forsheimer ever speak about this subject?

32

 Aug 25, 2010 at 12:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Here we go again. Those who push for reporting (the ONLY effective way to deal with abuse), and those who place themselves squarely behind the beis din card. I have no problem with placing the requirement of beis din before considering reporting. But the beis din MUST be competent. And I have yet to meet one that is.

The rules for evidence and testimony are not the ones we commonly use (two kosher witnesses, no circumstantial evidence, etc.). These issues are dealt with by poskim. And not all cases of reporting to authorities is a question of mesira or arkaos either. We just need Rabbonim and Batei Din to have the training, education, and competence to deal with the subject, and we do not have that. I would like to see appropriate education for Rabbonim, only after which they could give guidance, advice, and pasken on such sensitive and serious matters.

Meanwhile, the main purpose of reporting is to apprehend the perpetrator to prevent continued abuse. No beis din system is capable of that. We need actions of protection for safety to be taken without waiting for a din torah.

33

 Aug 25, 2010 at 01:12 PM charliehall Says:

There is NO beit din anywhere in America that is competent to deal with these kinds of issues. They don't have the training or expertise to conduct a forensic investigation, can not compel the collection of evidence, are not trained in the evaluation of such evidence, and can't compel testimony from witnesses. Furthermore, going to a beit din could conceivably compromise a real police investigation. In addition, medical and educational professionals have a legal obligation to report suspected abuse or they will lose their licenses.

34

 Aug 25, 2010 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:

kolco and mondrowitz have been reported to how many bein dins and rabbonon and nothing was done. sorry something was done they protected the molester and threatened the victim. the same thing happened to the family of the burka woman in Israel.

I think any rebbie who says do not go to the police is a secret member of nambla

35

 Aug 25, 2010 at 01:15 PM Anonymous Says:

To No. 18

You say always consult with "daas torah" before reporting a child abuser. I say to you, SHAME and hopefully these perverts will not go anywhere near your children since by the time you are done "consulting with your rebbe" and he refers you to a beis din who will try to protect the abuser and cover up the issue, it will be TOO LATE for your child.

36

 Aug 25, 2010 at 01:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Anonymous Says:

To number 4 when did rabbi forsheimer ever speak about this subject?

does it really matter can't frum people think for themselves anymore?

37

 Aug 25, 2010 at 01:16 PM Anonymous Says:

To number 27, please elaborate what "far more profound and effective punishment can be inflicted by the Beis Din, than a goyishe court system", unless you do, your statement is meaningless.

38

 Aug 25, 2010 at 01:16 PM Anonymous Says:

I would love to ask katz can he name a few cases when a beis din said go to the police

39

 Aug 25, 2010 at 01:39 PM yeshivaman Says:

What a hypocrite. Last time someone went to Bais Din regarding a molestation case Bais Din paskened the guy was guilty and S M Katz ran around saying Beis din is wrong; inciting machlokes and actually causing people to have no other choice but to go to the authorities. So SA Katz you got what you deserved.

40

 Aug 25, 2010 at 02:04 PM kollelfaker Says:

#18 its trhese same people that are protecting these abusers this is an issue of american law and should be handled as such time for the rabbis to say the same stop protecting and acting as an enabler

41

 Aug 25, 2010 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

can someone anyone out there in cyberspace name even 1 case where a beis dein said go to the police

42

 Aug 25, 2010 at 02:37 PM AlbertEinstein Says:

It is not in vain that we daven three times a day: Hoshivah Shofteinu kevarishona.

43

 Aug 25, 2010 at 02:42 PM MazelKGH Says:

Abuse, murder, fraud, drugs, shidduch problems, yeshivas closing ..... This is not the same holy Lakewood anymore.

44

 Aug 25, 2010 at 03:09 PM Yourkidding Says:

I am stunned by the bloggers here. Perhaps someone should put here the guidelines when B"D and only B"D gives permission to go to the secular court system. I am shocked that I hear people hear screaming Chillul Hashem when the Torah specifically describes going to the secular system as chillul hashem. The Torah appears to not have any relevance to many here as to this issue or to how to deal with molestation or testomony of children. Hey guys! Why not just convert out of Judaism. It will make you feel better

45

 Aug 25, 2010 at 04:09 PM Anonymous Says:

To number 44 please cite exactly where in the Torah it specifically describes going to the secular system as chillul hashem.

46

 Aug 25, 2010 at 04:11 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't have the time to answer everyone's questions, but let me address a couple concerns people have mentioned here.

Let me just mention this:

Yes, there are molesters in the community, but not to the degree those so called advocate claim.

B"H this problem is being dealt with by professionals who consult daas torah on the halachic aspects.

Rabonim do their work on a highly confidential level to protect the victim, family of the criminal, and the criminal himself, should he cooperate. Therefore, you won't hear about most of these incidents, vs when a so called advocate is here for publicity and power, would make sure everyone knows about the incident, shame of the victim not withstanding.

Rabonim have several ways to ensure that the molester is being treated adequately, 1) threatening to shame him 2) expel him, and/or his children from the shuls/schools and 4) inform him to the authorities.

I don't how many of you posters are part of the community, but those who are can surely remember a story or two when this one or that was expelled etc.

Recommended Rabonim are, in BP: Rav Hager from Kosov. In Willy Rav Hertzog, satmar. In Monroe there is a well established Vaad, etc.

Please note: the above was writen to people who want answers, those who want to bash, just keep on, rather then venting your anger at your spouse...

47

 Aug 25, 2010 at 04:25 PM PashutehYid Says:

Bottom line is that once a case goes to Beis Din, it is too late. What is needed is deterrence so that these crimes will never happen again. Only a court can carry out punishments severe enough to frighten off would-be perpetrators.

48

 Aug 25, 2010 at 04:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Yourkidding Says:

I am stunned by the bloggers here. Perhaps someone should put here the guidelines when B"D and only B"D gives permission to go to the secular court system. I am shocked that I hear people hear screaming Chillul Hashem when the Torah specifically describes going to the secular system as chillul hashem. The Torah appears to not have any relevance to many here as to this issue or to how to deal with molestation or testomony of children. Hey guys! Why not just convert out of Judaism. It will make you feel better

If a Jew was trying to get into your locked house and threatening you and your kids with physical harm would you a) call the police or b) call the beis din? You may say that the police are ok where there is an immediate danger but i would argue that allowing molesters to remain in the community without anybody but a few rabbis knowing the truth also puts children in immediate danger.

49

 Aug 25, 2010 at 06:24 PM Anonymous Says:

It is for the rabbis to decide whether the danger is eminent enough yo report to police.

Poster 46 thanks for clearing this matter up.

50

 Aug 25, 2010 at 06:29 PM speakup Says:

why did i spend precious time and energy writing a comment that reflected the point of view of many parents with whom I have spoken - (it was respectful yet clearly spoke to the issue of child molestation and the need to address any cover-up)........if it never got printed?!?!?! Could the person editing the comments please find my comment sent earlier today and reconsider, please? It was a sincere and serious observation based on many years of experience within the community - and I don't want to feel like I'm wasting my time when I comment on this website!!!! Thank you for your assistance!

51

 Aug 25, 2010 at 06:37 PM Anonymous Says:

If I remember correctly, Rav Pam ZT"L said to go to the authorities. Sorry, but that does not include Rabbis. Lakewood is trying really hard to keep reality away but it can't last long now. Thank G-d in Brooklyn and Monsey, we have come a long long way. I wish the affected family well and I admire your perseverance. You are paving the way for the EMES to prevail. Not cover ups. Those are for bathing suits!

52

 Aug 25, 2010 at 07:18 PM Anonymous Says:

to#46

expel him? so he goes do another state another community and molests again just like the Catholic church. That right just shuffle them around. So you are happy your child is safe but do not care about someone else s
therapy has proven not to work in about 90% of the cases
going to authorities, what a joke they never had and never will.

history has proven over and over again that beis din has no idea what to do besides supporting the molester.

even when outed like kolco, kolco gets more kovad than the family that outed him. Yes in happened in I think south fallsburg

therefore you comment has no basis in realty.

of course only people like you know the hidden stuff the rabbonum do

53

 Aug 25, 2010 at 07:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Anonymous Says:

It is for the rabbis to decide whether the danger is eminent enough yo report to police.

Poster 46 thanks for clearing this matter up.

however they see eminent danger different than normal people. To them the eminent danger is if the story leaks out and they will do anything to shut up the accuser even threatening the family that none of their children will be able to go to a yeshiva.
So again it is useless to go to beis din unless of course you are a molester

54

 Aug 25, 2010 at 07:30 PM gefen53 Says:

I have commented on this subje3ct in the past , and let me repeat some very important points that may have been overlooked:
#1. It is not the job or focus of any frum yid to seek ways of revenge or punishment against one who is a pedofile. Our goal is to PREVENT and help the victims and any future victims.
#2. Having been involved in many such cases, I would like to publicy announce and notify all ther uninformed, that yes in SOME communities, the work and actions of the Beis Din has been effective. I refuse to spell out which Beis Din and what city.
#3. The Beis Dins that have been successful have worked closely with FRUM therapists and doctors who are in the know of how to handle such cases. All the above comments that suggest the Rabbonim don't know enough or are not educated are foolish .
#4. Let us not forget the law of Rodef. It isn't permissable to kill a Rodef if therer are other ways to save the victims. A pedofile is a Rodef. Giving him over to the Goyish police or autorities is equal to murder !!

55

 Aug 25, 2010 at 07:46 PM JamesDean Says:

#46, I think you point out the real problem, "the person was expelled".

The action that a Bais Din has is limited to expelling the criminal from a Kehila or Cherem. They do not have the option of publishing the criminal's name in fear that the criminal will sue them.

What happens to the criminal expellee? He simply moves on to the next community where he continues his actions.

This is not helpful and the Rabbonim really need to get a handle on the limitations of their powers. Most of the Rabbonim that handle these issues are more inclined to sweep the issue under a rug L'tovas Hakahol than address the problem.

I have personally been involved in these cases and have first hand knowledge.

Halachically, it is assur to go to the police without a Heter Arkaos. However, these need to be immediately handed out where there is a chsash the accusations are true in order to protect our children.

Many Rabbonim are practicing NIMBY, not in my back yard, and simply relocate the problem to someone else's Kehillah. This is not a workable solution.

56

 Aug 25, 2010 at 08:06 PM Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

Rabbis are not trained in criminal investigation or the law. They have no enforcement or prosecution powers. Going to them first will destroy the chain of custody of evidence, prejudice witnesses and make justice impossible.

Harassing the family of the victim, tampering with witnesses and obstructing justice are serious crimes. The "rabbis" should be ashamed of themselves for contributing to this. If this continues you will see the Law come down on shuls, yeshivot, rabbinical organizations and bes din. Prosecutors are already talking about a "wall of silence" in the community, just like they do about the mafia. If they decide to get out the Big Hammer it will be very bad for Jewish institutions. And we will deserve it.

Go to the police. That's what they're there for.
Protect the victims, not the criminals.

57

 Aug 25, 2010 at 08:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

Rabbis are not trained in criminal investigation or the law. They have no enforcement or prosecution powers. Going to them first will destroy the chain of custody of evidence, prejudice witnesses and make justice impossible.

Harassing the family of the victim, tampering with witnesses and obstructing justice are serious crimes. The "rabbis" should be ashamed of themselves for contributing to this. If this continues you will see the Law come down on shuls, yeshivot, rabbinical organizations and bes din. Prosecutors are already talking about a "wall of silence" in the community, just like they do about the mafia. If they decide to get out the Big Hammer it will be very bad for Jewish institutions. And we will deserve it.

Go to the police. That's what they're there for.
Protect the victims, not the criminals.

Not true, boy are they at investigation, and those who are not good at it, know their limitations and work it with professionals.

If you want to varify if the rabbis are good at investigating, ask those indeviduels who were left at the mercy of r' yankel kelner... Or his likes.

I kindly would like to ask the well meaning poster who underestimate the Rabbi, to do some fact checking before commenting.

Please.

58

 Aug 25, 2010 at 09:03 PM CommonSense Says:

"I am stunned by the bloggers here. Perhaps someone should put here the guidelines when B"D and only B"D gives permission to go to the secular court system. I am shocked that I hear people hear screaming Chillul Hashem when the Torah specifically describes going to the secular system as chillul hashem. The Torah appears to not have any relevance to many here as to this issue or to how to deal with molestation or testomony of children. Hey guys! Why not just convert out of Judaism. It will make you feel better"

Hello..the Torah does not mention molestation. According to strict Torah law..no avera is done if there's no pentration..so what exactly do you want beis din to paskin??

59

 Aug 25, 2010 at 10:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
CommonSense Says:

"I am stunned by the bloggers here. Perhaps someone should put here the guidelines when B"D and only B"D gives permission to go to the secular court system. I am shocked that I hear people hear screaming Chillul Hashem when the Torah specifically describes going to the secular system as chillul hashem. The Torah appears to not have any relevance to many here as to this issue or to how to deal with molestation or testomony of children. Hey guys! Why not just convert out of Judaism. It will make you feel better"

Hello..the Torah does not mention molestation. According to strict Torah law..no avera is done if there's no pentration..so what exactly do you want beis din to paskin??

What the Torah does or doesn't call molestation we'll leave to the Rabbonim to decide and not to to anonymous blog posters, no offence meant.

And only what the Torah calls molesting should be prosecuted, not what chukei sodom secular law decides.

This is the jewish religion, whether you like it or not.

BTW, some of these publicised are simple cases of extortion.

Is that also a crime?

60

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:15 PM Truth Says:

57 -They only really investigate when they want to. If it's a group or individual they want to protect -they really just put on a show and aren't interested in the truth! Corruption is the name of the game. At least by the DA, there aren't so many corrupt lawyers and judges.

61

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:32 PM concernedcitizen Says:

.I am someone who believes in Rabbanim and Daas Torah, but I also know that they are not perfect and there are matters in which they are just not aware, perhaps have chosen to be unaware of and do not know how to respond correctly.
As someone who is in the field of mental health and hears stories daily from victims of abuse I will tell you the shame, fear, psychological and emotional distress they feel from these experiences is even greater when they aren't believed, the perpetrator does not appear to receive any consequences and they are told to just forget about it. To do that denies a person their experience which causes a tremendous amount of anguish.
To that point, I wanted to respond to some of the comments particularly # 46.. It is probably important that before you post, you do some research. To say that it doesn't happen as much as advocates say, is untrue, 40 years of objective research tells us that it happens across cultures and actually happens more often in closed cultures compared to open ones.
The recitivisim rate for offenders is very high especially for those who have not been dealt with through the criminal system (again research based info)

62

 Aug 25, 2010 at 11:44 PM concernedcitizen Says:

to continue: our responsibility is to protect our children and in too many cases that doesn't happen. To say that the rabbanim are doing investigations and are adequately educated on how to handle this is extremely naive and ignorant.
also #46 the problem with your list is that the last option is reporting and that is only after the other things don't work (which they don't b/c psychologically it doesn't work that way) and that is often only after even more kids are abused.
This is a common societal problem and to think b/c we are frum jews it is diff in our community is a lovely but very wrong and naive thought. Education is the best way to address this and jail time for perpetrators. R' Elyashiv & R' Shternbuch have said to go to the police. As far as I am aware they are considered to be the gedolie hador.and perhaps lakewood needs to listen to them. This has been well documented by the way & in fact R' Shternbuch has asked R' Daniel Eidensohn to write a book about the issues related to family and child welfare, halacha, psychological and practical approaches to address this. sad that the perpetrator is treated better then the victims. Wake up before its too late

64

 Aug 26, 2010 at 12:28 AM Anonymous Says:

The idea that a person who goes to the police to report abuse to his child is vilified within his community and embarrassed in public basically to wear him down is extortion to the nth degree. That IS allowed by the Rabbonim in Lakewood?

65

 Aug 26, 2010 at 12:35 AM Anonymous Says:

# 54
#2. Having been involved in many such cases, I would like to publicy announce and notify all ther uninformed, that yes in SOME communities, the work and actions of the Beis Din has been effective. I refuse to spell out which Beis Din and what city.

big red flag, prove or say nothing why would a beid din be scared to sat they did something.

No names no city no beis din, I can also say anything without any bachup

66

 Aug 26, 2010 at 12:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Hello..the Torah does not mention molestation. According to strict Torah law..no avera is done if there's no pentration..so what exactly do you want beis din to paskin??

the Torah does not say I cannot use a computer on shabbos therefore it is not an avira great what a relieve

67

 Aug 26, 2010 at 12:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Says:

The idea that a person who goes to the police to report abuse to his child is vilified within his community and embarrassed in public basically to wear him down is extortion to the nth degree. That IS allowed by the Rabbonim in Lakewood?

allowed? they are the ones doing it.

68

 Aug 26, 2010 at 02:20 AM schwartzi Says:

I only know one thing. If anyone lays a hand on my child.I will break every bone in his body. and ask questions or "counsel" the freak later.

And by the way, why isnt that rosha"king" Mondrowitz in jail yet? Hasnt he " done" enough kids yet? p.s. this is not loshan hora.

69

 Aug 26, 2010 at 07:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
CountryYossi Says:

I am NOT a poysek so i dont know what the haluche is . All i know is the Rabbi who went to jail for 32 years is because the Rabunim in his community ignored the complaints from parents who their kids were victims of his behavior. It comes a time when a parent gets so hurt seeing what happened to their child and the community is hiding this problem. I strongly believe that there should be set up a seperate bes-din who will handle ONLY those type of cases and all rabunim from the tri state area should be part of this bes-din . They should investigate and punish those molesters and NO shul in the community should allow them back as a mispalel then maybe we can solve this problem. Till this wont happen do NOT blame any parent who turns to the District attorney for help and prosecution...

Sorry but that case did not have to do with anything only with nuchim rosenberg a person that is the biggest manivel by klal yisral today and may he do tishuva qwikly.but besides what do you gain by going to court that it gets in to every seculer paper! Think twice before you do something against the torah and stop with all your dass bal habais that is the oppisiot of torah

70

 Aug 26, 2010 at 09:13 AM Anonymous Says:

maybe someone can tell me where it says one cannot report a child molester to the police

71

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