“ "standards regarding labor, treatment of animals, safety, environmental concerns and corporate integrity" in fact are important areas of halachah and this statemenent minimizes that fact. For some of these areas, being a willful violator means that you can't be trusted as a witness to kashrut. I would have greatly preferred for AI to have made this clear. Unfortunately, too many allegedly orthodox institutions have ignored these halachot. No, the Conservative movement shouldn't redefine kashrut, but neither should Orthodox institutions ignore much of the Shulchan Aruch! ”

“ Oh, stop it. There *are* things out there that can be improved in terms of
"labor, treatment of animals, safety, environmental concerns and corporate integrity"
Oh, I know... The evil Conservatives did it, so it must be wrong. We have to stop the denomination wars and ask a simple question: Does this add value in some way or another? To me, I dont see why it wouldnt. Its very nice to say that there are goverment regulations (OSHA, FDA etc). But the fact is these regulations are flaunted every day. Just because the Conservatives did it doesnt make it worthless or evil. ”

“ Purely inflammatory remarks which were unnecessary. The conservatives here did not seek to subtract any halachic standards, but merely to add some additional workplace standards which don't hurt or undermine kashrus in any way. There is enough fighting in klal yisroel already. Why fight over nothing? ”

“ Oh, stop it. There *are* things out there that can be improved in terms of
"labor, treatment of animals, safety, environmental concerns and corporate integrity"
Oh, I know... The evil Conservatives did it, so it must be wrong. We have to stop the denomination wars and ask a simple question: Does this add value in some way or another? To me, I dont see why it wouldnt. Its very nice to say that there are goverment regulations (OSHA, FDA etc). But the fact is these regulations are flaunted every day. Just because the Conservatives did it doesnt make it worthless or evil. ”

“ Most of you miss the point. Aside from other halachic considerations, there is a halachic concept of Chukas HaApikorsim as demonstrated many years ago by Rav Herschel Schachter in his B'Ikvai HaTzoan ”

“ Purely inflammatory remarks which were unnecessary. The conservatives here did not seek to subtract any halachic standards, but merely to add some additional workplace standards which don't hurt or undermine kashrus in any way. There is enough fighting in klal yisroel already. Why fight over nothing? ”

“ Union wages that do not allow business owners to make a living are not tzedek. They are geneiva. Many unskilled laborers in food plants are lucky to be working at all.

Personally I hope to see more automation in kosher plants so that this nonsense becomes moot and so that prices go down. That also means less illegal immigration and fewer blue-collar workers to vote for unions and the left. ”

“ Policing Kashrut integrity should be left to the Orthodox and polcing financial integrity should be left to the non-orthodox; the orthodox have shown their inability to adhere to financial 'kashrut' but their complete ability to adhere to food kashrut, while the non-orthodox have shown to be the exact opposite! There you have it!! ”

“ "standards regarding labor, treatment of animals, safety, environmental concerns and corporate integrity" in fact are important areas of halachah and this statemenent minimizes that fact. For some of these areas, being a willful violator means that you can't be trusted as a witness to kashrut. I would have greatly preferred for AI to have made this clear. Unfortunately, too many allegedly orthodox institutions have ignored these halachot. No, the Conservative movement shouldn't redefine kashrut, but neither should Orthodox institutions ignore much of the Shulchan Aruch! ”

“ Policing Kashrut integrity should be left to the Orthodox and polcing financial integrity should be left to the non-orthodox; the orthodox have shown their inability to adhere to financial 'kashrut' but their complete ability to adhere to food kashrut, while the non-orthodox have shown to be the exact opposite! There you have it!! ”

“ It is helpful to look at the Magen Tzedek website, as this article doesn't accurately reflect the MT organization's mission statement. Their Scope of Certification states:

"1. The Magen Tzedek service mark is not intended to replace traditional Kashrut certification. We are deferring to those who are already responsibly certifying food products as kosher.

2. The Magen Tzedek service mark will only be appended to products that are already certified as kosher. This mark is a supplement to, not a replacement of, the traditional kosher mark."

To me, this is similar to having something marked "Organic", but with a Jewish twist. As a consumer, if I can choose kosher meat from animals that are raised on a farm that doesn't pollute, for example, I might choose to buy that brand. Why is this a problem? ”

“ Unions are mutar, even encouraged by halachah. Rov Soloveitchik z'tz'l tried to help food industry workers to form a union in the 1930s so that they could resist the corner-cutting supposedly frum owners' attempts to undermine kashrut standards. The "tzedek" business owners response was to try to run The Rov out of town. THAT is geneiva, and worse. ”

“ Do you also boycott those items that also carry a "halal" (Moslem) certification? One that has an "organic" certification? The only reason why you would boycott a Conservative certificate is purely for political purposes. If a consumer cares about how the workers and the animals were treated, then they will specifically look for this certification, in addition to O-U or O-K, or whatever other Orthodox hashgacha is on the package. ”

“ Unions are mutar, even encouraged by halachah. Rov Soloveitchik z'tz'l tried to help food industry workers to form a union in the 1930s so that they could resist the corner-cutting supposedly frum owners' attempts to undermine kashrut standards. The "tzedek" business owners response was to try to run The Rov out of town. THAT is geneiva, and worse. ”

“ If this Hechser is additional to respected Hechserim OU OK Etc why is there a problem? If we dont trust the Goverment for Kashrus than Can we trust them on ethical laws? Gam zu Misinaj. See Pirkei Ovajs starting this week ”

“ Do you also boycott those items that also carry a "halal" (Moslem) certification? One that has an "organic" certification? The only reason why you would boycott a Conservative certificate is purely for political purposes. If a consumer cares about how the workers and the animals were treated, then they will specifically look for this certification, in addition to O-U or O-K, or whatever other Orthodox hashgacha is on the package. ”

“ Oh Leah'le,
These idiots are just representing on their website what they want you to know,, do u really think they are going to say that they are trying to mess up the hechsherim?? Come on! Seriously, they have very smart people working with them to figure out the perfect wording without giving away their hidden agenda ”

“ Of course Mr. Madoff was "Orthodox", right.

The symbol of theft is one of these fools, not the orthodox.

Besides, who needs these people, with their arbitrary rules, to determine what should be done? They will change the rules as they go along, that is what the profess they are good at.

Their rules not follow halacha nor US law. So what good are they? Not even as good as what one would scrape off their feet. ”

“ Oh Leah'le,
These idiots are just representing on their website what they want you to know,, do u really think they are going to say that they are trying to mess up the hechsherim?? Come on! Seriously, they have very smart people working with them to figure out the perfect wording without giving away their hidden agenda ”

“ Union wages that do not allow business owners to make a living are not tzedek. They are geneiva. Many unskilled laborers in food plants are lucky to be working at all.

Personally I hope to see more automation in kosher plants so that this nonsense becomes moot and so that prices go down. That also means less illegal immigration and fewer blue-collar workers to vote for unions and the left. ”

“ This is really about the Con-servative movement being on its last legs, one or two generations from dying out altogether. So, instead of doing tshuva, they look for gimmicks. Gam ze yaavor - utzu eitzo vesufar, dabru dovor veloi yakum. ”

“ Policing Kashrut integrity should be left to the Orthodox and polcing financial integrity should be left to the non-orthodox; the orthodox have shown their inability to adhere to financial 'kashrut' but their complete ability to adhere to food kashrut, while the non-orthodox have shown to be the exact opposite! There you have it!! ”

“ I haven't seen halal certification on any kosher products, but probably would not avoid buying them if I did. And I do avoid "organic" products if the same product without such designation is available. But this "Tzedek" abomination is different. No matter their disclaimers, they are attempting to, first, sneak into the kosher market through the back door and then will try to supplant it. And they are apikorsim. I am hoping that OU, OK, Star-K, etc., will threaten to withhold their hechsher from the product that attempt to use this abomination, but if not, we will do our part. ”

“ I do boycott organic. It is largely fraud - the certification means nothing. I was fooled once when I paid three times as much for organic so some dupes in my old shul would eat what I brought for kiddush. Never again. ”

“ You completely misrepresent Rabbi Schachter. He would NEVER support violations of halachic norms for businesses or treatment of animals. The fact that apikorsim may run honest businesses does not give us permission to become theives ourselves! Why, the torah describes cheating in business as a toeiva and Chazal call cheating in business worse than sexual sins.

The real chilul HaShem is that it isn't Orthodox leaders who are demanding accountability for businesses. AI may be worried that many supposedly frum organizations may not be following halachah. I'm not in the loop on stuff like this but I *personally* know of many synagogues and yeshivot who do not follow halachah regarding proper treatment of employees. ”

“ I'm not Orthodox, I'm a Conservative Jew, but I felt compelled to respond after reading the very negative messages on this post. It's very sad to see almost nothing on here resembling ahavat yisrael and a genuine attempt to understand the Conservative position.
For one thing, I have to clear up one misunderstanding: that Conservative Jews don't believe in halakha. That is simply not true; the Conservative movement has an entire group devoted to voting on halakhic issues, the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards. Just because the movement often *disagrees* with various Orthodox views on halakha doesn't mean Conservative Judaism is *against* halakha.
If anyone actually wants real information about the Conservative movement, read it here: http://www.uscj.org/About_the_United_Syn6400.html . Note that one of the USCJ's stated goals is "to further the observance of Sabbath and the dietary laws," as it was a reaction against Reform Judaism.
I respect people's disapproval of the hescher tzedek, but please don't malign all Conservative Jews or imply that they don't care about halakha while you're at it. As someone who cares deeply about halakha, I can tell you that's pretty upsetting. ”

“ I believe these orthodox institutions that had an unchallenged monopoly over business regarding religious matters are afraid of being shaken up by the new kid on the block that would bring these important issues of ethics to the surface. They want to avoid another wave of potential embarrassing scandals and most importantly $$$. ”

“ I'm not Orthodox, I'm a Conservative Jew, but I felt compelled to respond after reading the very negative messages on this post. It's very sad to see almost nothing on here resembling ahavat yisrael and a genuine attempt to understand the Conservative position.
For one thing, I have to clear up one misunderstanding: that Conservative Jews don't believe in halakha. That is simply not true; the Conservative movement has an entire group devoted to voting on halakhic issues, the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards. Just because the movement often *disagrees* with various Orthodox views on halakha doesn't mean Conservative Judaism is *against* halakha.
If anyone actually wants real information about the Conservative movement, read it here: http://www.uscj.org/About_the_United_Syn6400.html . Note that one of the USCJ's stated goals is "to further the observance of Sabbath and the dietary laws," as it was a reaction against Reform Judaism.
I respect people's disapproval of the hescher tzedek, but please don't malign all Conservative Jews or imply that they don't care about halakha while you're at it. As someone who cares deeply about halakha, I can tell you that's pretty upsetting. ”

“ very few are for this most think it is an affront to orthodoxy

that is simply prove that this is needed the orthodox have no concept of ethics it seems or care if the company they buy from abuses workers pollutes, as long as it is kosher its good nothing else matters

funny one would think the torah never mention ethics in business to some people ”

“ You completely misrepresent Rabbi Schachter. He would NEVER support violations of halachic norms for businesses or treatment of animals. The fact that apikorsim may run honest businesses does not give us permission to become theives ourselves! Why, the torah describes cheating in business as a toeiva and Chazal call cheating in business worse than sexual sins.

The real chilul HaShem is that it isn't Orthodox leaders who are demanding accountability for businesses. AI may be worried that many supposedly frum organizations may not be following halachah. I'm not in the loop on stuff like this but I *personally* know of many synagogues and yeshivot who do not follow halachah regarding proper treatment of employees. ”

“ I'm not Orthodox, I'm a Conservative Jew, but I felt compelled to respond after reading the very negative messages on this post. It's very sad to see almost nothing on here resembling ahavat yisrael and a genuine attempt to understand the Conservative position.
For one thing, I have to clear up one misunderstanding: that Conservative Jews don't believe in halakha. That is simply not true; the Conservative movement has an entire group devoted to voting on halakhic issues, the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards. Just because the movement often *disagrees* with various Orthodox views on halakha doesn't mean Conservative Judaism is *against* halakha.
If anyone actually wants real information about the Conservative movement, read it here: http://www.uscj.org/About_the_United_Syn6400.html . Note that one of the USCJ's stated goals is "to further the observance of Sabbath and the dietary laws," as it was a reaction against Reform Judaism.
I respect people's disapproval of the hescher tzedek, but please don't malign all Conservative Jews or imply that they don't care about halakha while you're at it. As someone who cares deeply about halakha, I can tell you that's pretty upsetting. ”

“ Unions are kneged halacha. They steal from employers.

Do not pin your radical communist views on the Rav. Your comments are totally untrue and misinformed.

Let me ask, what tzar baalei chayim halacha did Agri violate. Please indicate with a source in halacha. You can't because there was nothing done that was kneged halacha.

I am sure you will then talk about the alleged abuses of employees. Well, the government could not find a single count to stick. That puts lie to that whole line of "thinking" and tha term is used loosely with you.


This attempt by the anti religious is a sham, that apparently You are eager to take part of, and is out and attept to extort companies. No one who is interested In the mogen tzedek cares a whit about eating kosher or keeping any basic mitzvot. And if you are interested, you obviously count your self in such a group. ”

“ Apparently your version of torah and halacha does not require comprehensible thought.

Just know that the logic behind your very poorly written screed is much weaker than even your writing skills. ”

“ In the end, his misguided efforts would have forced prices UP - and in any case these were frum Jewish workers like shoichtim who worked for mostly second-generation non-frum American Jewish meat plant owners. If you remember Shelat chicken, that was the last gasp of that kind of "tzedek" kosher food business owner.

Most kosher-only food manufacturing firms (and all but the biggest restaurants and groceries) of today are owned by hard-working people, often older immigrants from Europe and E"Y, who manage to make "a parnosse" for their large families - but few have much left over at the end of the month after expenses. The few big ones - Kenover/Kedem, Liebers etc - don't make anything themselves. They just run mehadrin runs in private-label plants.

I live abroad, but I would boycott any Magen Tzedek product just as I will not visit a restaurant I used to frequent that now carries the Tav HaYosher on my next trip to NY. I would simply buy imports from E"Y and help Yidden there rather than buy from those who capitulate to left-wing nonsense. ”

“ agudah,ou etc have been calling for proper buisness dealings but how much power do the rabanim really have in our time. also,i'm sorry to say that i too know very personally of yiddishe schools that don't treat their employees properly and i'm not just talking about failing to make payrole because there's no money in the bank. ”

“ charlie you always proclaim negitive truths to orthodox institutions while defending liberals that couldnot care about true jewish values. but seem never to back up youir rants maybe its time for you to crawl unser your riverdale rock.
this is not the first time kashrush in america came under attack from traif selling conservatives and reform jews just look back at the early 1900's and rabbi jacob joseph or perhaps the fall of the seminary on 116 street that was orthodox only to be taken over by reform and conservative jews ”

“ and what percent of conservative Jews follow halacha? ”

“ Apparently your version of torah and halacha does not require comprehensible thought.

Just know that the logic behind your very poorly written screed is much weaker than even your writing skills. ”

“ By specifically avoiding organic products, you are harming yourself and your family, but it's your right to be foolish. By specifically avoiding a hechsher that certifies that the workers were paid their wages, you are oiver a mitzvah d'oraisa. ”

“ That's very silly analogy. Government is not even trying to vouch for products to be kosher. Government does, hoever, has enforcement mechanisms in place to enforce ethical and environmental laws and regulations - most of them very harmful burdens to the business, but enforced nonetheless. ”

“ So go enjoy eating chemicals and processed foods. Other people enjoy eating healthy food, without pesticides or dangerous additives. ”

“ Many unskilled laborers have few marketable skills at all, by definition. Forcing a company to pay them more than they are worth is about as fair as forcing you to pay your Mexican house cleaner a minimum of $30 an hour, Macher. ”

“ please note that one absolutely should have ahavas yisroel for every jew but not every jewish organization. i respect your commitment.i have a conservative shul around the block from me and i see members walking home from there every shabbos.many of the women wear kippot or taleism.i respect their desire to live a spiritually fullfilling life. however this is not the halacha and therein lies the crux of the problem. i can say something is halacha and perhaps somehow find a way to say i can textually prove it but that doesn't make it so. i see the consevative movement has in certain ways become more frum over he years and someday...who knows? ”

“ That's very silly analogy. Government is not even trying to vouch for products to be kosher. Government does, hoever, has enforcement mechanisms in place to enforce ethical and environmental laws and regulations - most of them very harmful burdens to the business, but enforced nonetheless. ”

“ The commandment to pay workers their wages on time was specifically mentioned in last weeks parsha. If the employer has the money, and doesn't pay the wages, is it mutar for us to continue to patronize his business? ”

“ I know a few. Just a few. ”

“ You would have prefer to have Jews eating cheap non-kosher food. Shame! ”

“ Government rules on how to run businesses are MUCH more lenient than the Torah's rules.

For example, the Torah prohibits overcharging and undercharging. Not so the government.

The Torah requires an employee to be paid as long as the employer has any assets. Not so the government.

The Torah forbids pollution if it will damage another, and the damage is actionable in beit din. The government often *allows* pollution notwithstanding the damage, and there is no redress in court.

The Torah forbids far more types of unfair competition than does the government. For example, the Torah forbids a business from trying to steal the customers of its competitors. Not so the government.

I'm sorry you seem to think that the Torah is a harmful burden. ”

“ "Such issues are worthy" I think we all agree on this one. Its the issuer of the certificate we dont accept and or trust. " are well covered by govermental regulations." Unfortunatly i have yet to see a product with goverment approval of ethics etc. Untill the Goverment or Orthodox Kashruth Agencys will start to certify products for Tzedek i have no choice but use this. ”

“ I'm Conservative and do follow halacha. I really feel about how gleeful everybody is in denigrating fellow Jews. Most of my friends are frum, many are Hasidic. I've never encountered this kind of disrespect in person, thank G-d. I hope you don't think the future of the Jews will be guaranteed when other Jewish movements disappear. Quite the opposite. There's nothing wrong with this certification. It'll enhance the others, not threaten them. As far as the cost, people can certainly decide not to pay more for anything that doesn't concern them. ”

“ What an obnoxious statement! They don't want to eliminate anything about the halacha of kashrut, they want to enhance it. You're just trying to create a division between Jews. If I saw two products and both were certified kosher and one had, in addition, this certification, I would go for that one. It's articles like this that make people think, incorrectly, that kashrut is inhumane. We need to start improving our standards, not fighting other movements because they want to improve standards. Shame on you! ”

“ What hidden agenda? I like to read, so went to the Conservative movement website and found a statement on kashrut that begins like this:

WHEREAS, the most basic laws of kashrut are commandments in the Torah, and Conservative Judaism requires the observance of the laws of kashrut;

The Conservative movement is not the same as Reform. Conservatives believe that Jews must keep Torah and Mitzvot (including kashrut and shabbos) , but apply a much more liberal standard of interpretation, which Orthodox Judaism doesn't generally accept. In the matter of kashrut, the Conservative movement teaches that Jews must keep kosher and buy products with hekhshers. The reality is that many or most don't. However, I don't see an agenda to destroy Orthodox Judaism. ”

“ By specifically avoiding organic products, you are harming yourself and your family, but it's your right to be foolish. By specifically avoiding a hechsher that certifies that the workers were paid their wages, you are oiver a mitzvah d'oraisa. ”

“ No one is forcing anyone to use this hechsher. Don't use the products if you don't like it. However, it is here to stay. ”

“ If you are conservative then it's like you are saying I will eat pork but I am following halacha. You may be "frum" or "hasidic" but you are clearly following a misguided anti-halacha movement. It's like saying shema yisroel beleiving in the trinity. As far as your assumption of quite the opposite of disappering movement we have a havtacha shelo tishukach mipi zaroi and orthodox is the only movement that survived untl now while the tzedokim, baisosim, karoim, early x-ians and all other shaimos hanirdofim till recently disappeared as it was only a national culture of judaism. ”

“ Tzedek is when a business owner who risks it all to put out a product people need and want makes a decent profit, unencumbered by unions, PETA and other parasites, so that he can reinvest to grow his business. When I see a certificate that attests to this kind of tzedek, I will buy a product certified with it - and if it is something I don't use I will do more tzedek by giving it to a deserving unfortunate person who needs it. ”

“ OK, I was waiting for this! My husband is in the food industry, and he has a very simple solution. IF the Consumers call the companies that put the hechsher tzedek on their products, and let them know that WE are boycotting them..... We will not support a company with a hechsher tzedek, we will buy their competing brands,, then we wont see too much more of this stupidity. ”

“ madoff was not Orthodox and when it became know that he was a criminal the secular Jews did not go out and make excuses and say he did it for charity or said he was framed because the government is antisemitic. He gave tzudhuka so he could not have been a criminal. No they look at the fact and decided

as opposed to the Orthodox who use those excuses and others whenever a frum yid get caught. and of course the frum person is never at fault no matter what the evidence is. Or, will put all their outrage on the mosser and completely ignore that a frum person did a crime ”

“ madoff was not Orthodox and when it became know that he was a criminal the secular Jews did not go out and make excuses and say he did it for charity or said he was framed because the government is antisemitic. He gave tzudhuka so he could not have been a criminal. No they look at the fact and decided

as opposed to the Orthodox who use those excuses and others whenever a frum yid get caught. and of course the frum person is never at fault no matter what the evidence is. Or, will put all their outrage on the mosser and completely ignore that a frum person did a crime ”

“ That's exactly what we are talking about: if the major kashrus agencies will not withdraw their hechsherim from the products which use this abomination, we will refuse to buy these products and call the manufacturers to let them know why we stopped buying their products. If they notice a drop in sales, and know what to attribute it to, we will see about "it" being here to stay. ”

“ Your ability to express yourself isn't exactly an ad for the schools that are educating the Orthodox, but we'll set that aside. Thanks for comparing my level of observance to those who eat pork. Obviously we make you very nervous. And why shouldn't we? Every time someone goes "off the derech" there's a chance they'll become one of us or leave the fold altogether. And, if it's the children of people like you, it's more likely they'll go all the way and decide not to be Jewish because you've shown no respect for people who belong to other movements. But that's not my concern. My shul has more people actively involved than yours, no doubt. We're quite comfortable with the future of our movement. You just take care of your own and we'll see how things turn out. But your disrespect for me does you no good. It just makes you look like you don't understand Ahavas Yisroel. Reminds me of why the Temple was destroyed. Looks like the Yidden continue to refuse to learn the lessons of the past. ”

“ In general, it seems to me that small businesses have great potential -- for their owners. The employees though are another story. If you work for a small business, what kind of benefits do you get? Health insurance? Dental? Vision? Pension? What kind of severance do you get if you should lose your job in a downturn? Please don't play the violin for the poor business owners. I do not begrudge them a living, but the fact is being an owner of such an enterprise beats being an employee of it any day. To all you young people: If you aren't cut out for starting your own business then get an education so that you can join a large corporation. Being at the mercy of some merchant is no way to live. ”

“ By avoiding products marked "organic" I harm no one, I simply refuse to participate in and finance fraud and deceit. But it's your right to be gullible. ”

“ Big businesses start out as small ones. The ones who don't aspire to go much above small level hire family members or just need menial help and hire unskilled people no one else would hire. They still add more to society than leftist Hechsher Tzedek types and academics who stay in their ivory tower all day and preach to us when they took the easy way out. ”

“ Big businesses start out as small ones. The ones who don't aspire to go much above small level hire family members or just need menial help and hire unskilled people no one else would hire. They still add more to society than leftist Hechsher Tzedek types and academics who stay in their ivory tower all day and preach to us when they took the easy way out. ”

“ Your ability to express yourself isn't exactly an ad for the schools that are educating the Orthodox, but we'll set that aside. Thanks for comparing my level of observance to those who eat pork. Obviously we make you very nervous. And why shouldn't we? Every time someone goes "off the derech" there's a chance they'll become one of us or leave the fold altogether. And, if it's the children of people like you, it's more likely they'll go all the way and decide not to be Jewish because you've shown no respect for people who belong to other movements. But that's not my concern. My shul has more people actively involved than yours, no doubt. We're quite comfortable with the future of our movement. You just take care of your own and we'll see how things turn out. But your disrespect for me does you no good. It just makes you look like you don't understand Ahavas Yisroel. Reminds me of why the Temple was destroyed. Looks like the Yidden continue to refuse to learn the lessons of the past. ”

“ Your representation of the state of yiddishkheit is very inaccurate. If someone r''l goes "off the derech" and joins you, they ALREADY "went all the way" and "left the fold altogether". It is no better (and, in the opinion of kiruv workers, far worse) to be conservative than to be secular. Whereas I don't see any appreciable difference between conservative and secular, men involved in kiruv tell me that it is much easier to approach and attract a secular than conservative-reform steeped in their sheker. ”

“ Your representation of the state of yiddishkheit is very inaccurate. If someone r''l goes "off the derech" and joins you, they ALREADY "went all the way" and "left the fold altogether". It is no better (and, in the opinion of kiruv workers, far worse) to be conservative than to be secular. Whereas I don't see any appreciable difference between conservative and secular, men involved in kiruv tell me that it is much easier to approach and attract a secular than conservative-reform steeped in their sheker. ”

“ Having owned a small business that grew into a modestly larger one with more than 250 employees, I can tell you that my employee's union was as interested as I was in the company making a profit. Without a profit we couldn't hire more employees. If you work with folks you get higher production levels and a better work environment and when tough times come - and they always do - you get greater cooperation. Your anti-union rant is foolish.
As for MT, anyone who can put a stamp of approval on a product stating that workers are treated fairly - see fair trade coffee - will be welcome in the food industry. Frum yidden who oppose this and think the tail can wag the dog don't understand the industry. That is why the OU won't oppose MT.. They would loose big time in that fight and they know it. ”

“ Conservative Jews don't need people involved in kiruv. Because they're already Jewish and affiliated with a movement. Only unaffiliated people are interested. Conservative Jews are happy being Conservative. I think it's funny the way it drives some Orthodox Jews (not my friends) crazy. Kiruv workers who have so little respect for non-Orthodox Jews who are happy with their level of observance should get a new job. Maybe selling cars. ”

“ My husband used to be Orthodox and is Conservative now and is very, very happy. Still shomer mitzvot but doing just fine as a Jew, thank you very much. Why on earth would the other movements bother you so much? It seems a waste of energy to make other Jews the enemy. Isn't that why the Temple was destroyed? ”

“ Conservatives may be biologically Jewish by they are Jews involved in a foreign religion. They may be "happy" in that foreign religion in the same sense as pigs are happy in the mud. That's not a proof of anything. ”

“ What is wrong with you? Even by Orthodox standards (and I am a frum "shteeble-yid" for over sixty years), the level of observance I have seen in many conservative or conservadox people is higher than many supposed Orthodox Jews.

And if you think that people who cheat, steal, lie and sometimes end up in prison are "better" Jews than practicing Conservatives, you are dead wrong.

I davened mincha not long ago in a conservative friend's house who was sitting shiva. It was no different from any other minyan except for two things.

The women davened as well (and I have NEVER seen women in shul for mincha except during Rosh Hashona and Yom Kippur, and that they ALL davened with surprising Kavonah, which I do NOT see in most frum shuls.

You are a self-righteous, hypocritical arrogant am oretz to insult people who practice Conservative Judaism seriously and probably in a way more pleasing to Gd than the way you obviously conduct yourself, as evidenced by the comments you make here. I can't believe that as a frum Orthodox Jew I am forced to say that YOU are the one who acts like pig, and takes sides with the Conservative commenters here, who have been nothing but respectful of you. ”