New York - Rav Amsalem: 'Daas Torah' A Notion Invented by Ashkenazi Power Mongers |
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New York - In an explosive interview with Zev Brenner on last night’s Talkline radio program, Rabbi Chaim Amsalem, a former member of the Shas party since 2005 who has made waves within Shas by going head to head with R’ Yosef regarding conversions, stresses that their differences are purely political and that in matters of halacha the two do not disagree. Amsalem’s newly created ‘Am Shalem’ party challenges the Chareidi establishment, comparing it to the Taliban and calling it a dictatorship that is hopelessly out of touch with the people it claims to represent.
Pulling no punches, R’ Amsalem expressed his view that today’s Israeli longs for the opportunity to be able to balance Torah study with the ability to become educated and earn a respectable living, a concept that has long been espoused by Sefardim. R’ Amsalem emphasized that many of the Rabbonim we rely on today such as the ‘Rambam’, were both scientists and talmidei chachamim. Saying that Shas is teaching people to become a burden on society by discouraging them from getting jobs, Amsalem called for an end to government stipends for yeshiva students.
Rabbi Amsalem lambasted the notion of Daas Torah, saying it is an invention of the last one hundred years brought to Israel by European Ashkenazim. Saying his personal Daas Torah is the Shulchan Aruch, Gemara and Mishnayos, R’ Amsalem explained that while one should clearly seek Daas Torah in issues of halacha and spirituality, the idea that every word that emanates from the mouth of a gadol is like the word of G-d is a blatant lie, perpetuated by those who hope to control the masses. R’ Amsalem takes aim at Rabbonim who rule on topics such as politics that they know nothing about.
“The Rabbonim are surrounded by ‘courts’, they don’t listen to both sides,” said R’ Amsalem. “They listen only to one side, the side of the court. This goes against the Torah, which says Shomoa bein Achicha – you should hear your fellow Jew. They are not hearing both sides, they bring their decision only upon hearing one side. It should not be done this way. This is NOT Daas Torah.”
Saying that some in the Charedi community, who has banned the internet entirely, is hopelessly out of date and out of touch with today’s society, R’ Amsalem, who clearly represents the Sefardi community, hopes that his Am Shalem party, with its platform of unity and respect for all, will be a unifying force in Israel, addressing the needs of Israelis all across the religious spectrum.
R’ Amsalem scoffed at the notion that his extremist views would result in his being put in cheirem, saying that in today’s world banning him would only increase his popularity.
Listen below to the explosive interview where callers take issue about his view on the notion of ‘Daas Torah’.
The interview starts at minute 48:38. click here 
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Read Comments (65) — Post Yours »
1
May 08, 2011 at 02:02 PM abeytt03 Says:Report as Inappropriate
Baruch Hashem we have talmidei chachamim like Rav Amsalem willing to defy the status quo in pursuit of a better judaism and klal yisroel.
Anyone know how I can donate to his new political party?
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May 08, 2011 at 02:11 PM how sad Says:Report as Inappropriate
This guys is like the reform just in a up hat and long coat. This guy is a chulil hashem and yes should be but in charem.
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May 08, 2011 at 02:12 PM oldschoolorthodox Says:Report as Inappropriate
He speaks emes, im surprised this isnt better known. For all those who plan to argue all you need to do is find a mekor that advice of Gedolim should be sought in non-halachic matters, that has been written prior to 1900. Our religion wasnt invented yesterday we have a very long and noble tradition, please please somebody find a mekor.
(ideally the mekor should say that there is a chiyuv to listen but that is probably to hard to find, all im looking for is that such a concept exists)
thank you
5
May 08, 2011 at 02:29 PM Geulah Says:Report as Inappropriate
I haven't heard the interview. Based on the synopsis, Rav Ansalem appears to be a sentient being not distracted by krumkeit. He is not referring to all Ashkenazy Rebbeim or all Sefardi chachamim, either.
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May 08, 2011 at 02:42 PM luchinkup Says:Report as Inappropriate
Finally! This man is awesome. Cue all of the brain-dead zombies frothing at the mouth because of him.
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May 08, 2011 at 02:59 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Yidden ALWAYS asked the rabbi everything.
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May 08, 2011 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Baruch Hashem we have talmidei chachamim like Rav Amsalem willing to defy the status quo in pursuit of a better judaism and klal yisroel.
Anyone know how I can donate to his new political party? ”
You listen to him because he is a Talmud chacham? That is against what HE is preaching...
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May 08, 2011 at 03:21 PM JamesDean Says:Report as Inappropriate
While I am sure that 100% of Daas Torah is not seeking to control the masses, I would bet a large number of the so called Askonim are.
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May 08, 2011 at 03:26 PM NeveAliza Says:Report as Inappropriate
Rav Amsalem is correct, but I think the "100 years" should be adjusted to "50 or 60 years".
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May 08, 2011 at 03:29 PM InformedConsent Says:Report as Inappropriate
Concerning the Rabbi Amsalem's claim of total ban on the internet is a result of being our of touch. VIN previously reported here: (http://www.vosizneias.com/76216/2011/02/14/teaneck-nj-vin-exclusive-interview-with-world-renowned-rabbi-dr-twerski-part-i-–-internet-addiction/) another Rav with a similar view.
My personal Rav, zol zein gezunt, could regularly pull the Daas Torah card, but never has to my recollection. He has never published a "gilui daas Torah" or something of the sort. Bu then again, his unassuming nature is what draws others to his guidance. Maybe if he had a posse of die-hard followers, they too would enforce his words in a militant style. Alas, his true followers are not threatened by those who do not ascribe in the same fashion - more for ourselves, we claim.
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May 08, 2011 at 03:29 PM shari Says:Report as Inappropriate
torah is all encompassing. Rabbis do not just decide omn rituals, shabbos, kashrus. Torah- and Rabbis guide us in all political decisions- which when broken down are issues on security, social, economic, educational etc. The zekeinim decided in all history. Ask him his position on the Chazon Ish's decision on women serving in the IDF- and the high intermarriage rate of Jewish girls to arabs in bat yam, lod , haifa r"l
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May 08, 2011 at 03:36 PM WiseDude Says:Report as Inappropriate
YES! At last some common sense! The Chareidi world has gone too far in an extreme direction which is harmful in many ways. Maybe R. Anselem can get the ship upright again. ! Kol HaKavod!!!!!!!
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May 08, 2011 at 03:40 PM Oldtimer Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Yidden ALWAYS asked the rabbi everything. ”
I'm glad I'm old enough to remember a judiasm where Yidden certainly did not ask the rabbi everything!
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May 08, 2011 at 03:44 PM farshtier Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Yidden ALWAYS asked the rabbi everything. ”
Not true, only Ingerishe stated this meshugas.
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May 08, 2011 at 03:58 PM HaNavon Says:Report as Inappropriate
Daas Torah is something that is found on every page of Gemara, Shulchan Aruch and the Poskim.
That having been said, he's correct!!
If you want to know Daas Torah, go sit and learn.
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May 08, 2011 at 03:59 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
I never figured out what Daas Torah really is since we don't have a pope to give is one psak halacha for all. we have many rabonim with all different views and opinions whatever rov you follow that is your daas torah
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May 08, 2011 at 04:17 PM Avrohom_33 Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ He speaks emes, im surprised this isnt better known. For all those who plan to argue all you need to do is find a mekor that advice of Gedolim should be sought in non-halachic matters, that has been written prior to 1900. Our religion wasnt invented yesterday we have a very long and noble tradition, please please somebody find a mekor.
(ideally the mekor should say that there is a chiyuv to listen but that is probably to hard to find, all im looking for is that such a concept exists)
thank you ”
Here is one Mekor, from many, an excerpt from the ספר החינוך, in מצוה תצה:
ובכלל המצוה גם כן לשמוע ולעשות בכל זמן וזמן כמצות השופט, כלומר החכם הגדול אשר יהיה בינינו בזמננו, וכמו שדרשו זכרונם לברכה [ראש השנה כ"ה ע"ב] ואל השופט אשר יהיה בימים ההם, יפתח בדורו כשמואל בדורו, כלומר שמצוה עלינו לשמוע בקול יפתח בדורו כמו לשמואל בדורו.
ועובר על זה ואינו שומע לעצת הגדולים שבדור בחכמת התורה בכל אשר יורו מבטל עשה זה. וענשו גדול מאד שזהו העמוד החזק שהתורה נשענת בו, ידוע הדבר לכל מי שיש בו דעת.
Das Torah/ Emunas Chachomim have been part of Yiddishkeit from the very beginning- As you can see, listening to Das Torah is a מצוות עשה.
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May 08, 2011 at 05:21 PM oldschoolorthodox Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Here is one Mekor, from many, an excerpt from the ספר החינוך, in מצוה תצה:
ובכלל המצוה גם כן לשמוע ולעשות בכל זמן וזמן כמצות השופט, כלומר החכם הגדול אשר יהיה בינינו בזמננו, וכמו שדרשו זכרונם לברכה [ראש השנה כ"ה ע"ב] ואל השופט אשר יהיה בימים ההם, יפתח בדורו כשמואל בדורו, כלומר שמצוה עלינו לשמוע בקול יפתח בדורו כמו לשמואל בדורו.
ועובר על זה ואינו שומע לעצת הגדולים שבדור בחכמת התורה בכל אשר יורו מבטל עשה זה. וענשו גדול מאד שזהו העמוד החזק שהתורה נשענת בו, ידוע הדבר לכל מי שיש בו דעת.
Das Torah/ Emunas Chachomim have been part of Yiddishkeit from the very beginning- As you can see, listening to Das Torah is a מצוות עשה. ”
Thanks, though you either didnt understnad my question or the chinuch. The chinuch is reffering to - first line- "issur and mutar, tamei and tahor, chayuv and patur and a tikun in daseinu" ie halacha. Yes in halacha we follow gedolim (except when you think they are mistaken in which case it is assur to follow, ayin all of maseches horiyos). My question is in non-halachaic matters.eg do I have to vote for candidate a becasue "daas torah" says to? Do I have to stay in pre-holocasut Europe becasue daas torah says so? (The second one is trickier, as that elevates daas torah to a 4th yehrog veal yavor, so you can ignore that if finding such a mekor is too hard, though it would be great if you could).
Back to my question where does this idea that gedolim have "daas torah" in non-halachic matters come from and where does it say they have to be followed?
Thank you for trying, dont give up I believe in you
21
May 08, 2011 at 05:33 PM Secular Says:Report as Inappropriate
To #19
The Chinuch as well as the RambaM refer specifically to issues of Pesak and Mesorah, not politics, welfare or internet.
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May 08, 2011 at 05:39 PM Charlie Hall Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Daas Torah is something that is found on every page of Gemara, Shulchan Aruch and the Poskim.
That having been said, he's correct!!
If you want to know Daas Torah, go sit and learn. ”
Funny, I'm now 2/3 through the Bavli in the Daf Yomi cycle and I certainly don't see it on every page if it is there at all. To the contrary, there is an entire tractate of the Oral Law that describes korbanot that are to be brought when a leader or leaders err. Kal v'chomer the leaders of the present day as they are of lesser stature than the leaders of the past.
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May 08, 2011 at 05:40 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
he is absolutely right! we need more like him
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May 08, 2011 at 05:24 PM enlightened-yid Says:Report as Inappropriate
Uh-oh, some sane rabbi is going against the grain and the corrupted rabbinical system that passes as "Torah Life" for past hundred years. Let me predict that by tomorrow almost every Charedi leader from both Ashkenazi and Sefardi establishments in Israel will call him an apekores.
The guy obviously studied some Jewish history outside what he was spoon fed by his yeshiva system and realized that Judaism was never meant to be backwards and continually slipping into Talibanesque Islam through "Da'as Torah from rock star rabbis given the title of Gadol. But can he actually change anything?--I doubt it. Charedi men are well accustomed to a life of no responsibilities to having a family. Who would change a system that tells you to work hard on education and careers to support a wife and kids on your own without waiting for entitled handouts because you feel special and holy sitting in kollel for half of your life.
And one thing he hit on the nail very hard is how Ashkenazim did politicize religion from top to bottom. We now have streams of charedi sects, different black hat groups, chabad, reform this, conservative that, reconstruction all divisive and highly political.
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May 08, 2011 at 05:47 PM simcha Says:Report as Inappropriate
Daas torah is for torah, by definition. I don't go to daas torah for political or medical opinions. This Rav Amsalem is right.
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May 08, 2011 at 05:49 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This guys is like the reform just in a up hat and long coat. This guy is a chulil hashem and yes should be but in charem. ”
What is it that he said bothers you so much? That everyone should live in the REAL world?? and know what's happening and be a part of it and not just take from it?
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May 08, 2011 at 06:04 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This guys is like the reform just in a up hat and long coat. This guy is a chulil hashem and yes should be but in charem. ”
Explain ureslf please. Why is he like reform. Which part do u refute?
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May 08, 2011 at 06:17 PM abeytt03 Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You listen to him because he is a Talmud chacham? That is against what HE is preaching... ”
I listen to him because what he is saying makes sense and is true to my religious beliefs. He happens to be a true talmud chachum, and as a person who respects torah, I appreciate that about him. Additionally, it is harder to label him an ignoramous or apikores for the beliefs he is esposuing because his scholarship and demonstrable committment to yiddishkeit is clear.
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May 08, 2011 at 06:19 PM KevinTheMevin Says:Report as Inappropriate
Sounds like he has his head screwed on the right way, unlike many "gedolim"
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May 08, 2011 at 06:49 PM trachtois Says:Report as Inappropriate
I like this Sefardic xenophobe who believes that everything is a result of some devious "vast right wing conspiracy" of the "Council of Elders of Ashkenaz (Zion)". Does this Amsalem believe the Ashkenazim use the blood of people of North African descent in their Matzo, too?
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May 08, 2011 at 07:20 PM Rabbi_In_The_Know Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ He speaks emes, im surprised this isnt better known. For all those who plan to argue all you need to do is find a mekor that advice of Gedolim should be sought in non-halachic matters, that has been written prior to 1900. Our religion wasnt invented yesterday we have a very long and noble tradition, please please somebody find a mekor.
(ideally the mekor should say that there is a chiyuv to listen but that is probably to hard to find, all im looking for is that such a concept exists)
thank you ”
לא תסור מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאול, אפילו אם אומר לך על ימין שהוא שמאל לא תסוג ממנו - כך כתוב בתורה על פי דרשת חז"ל. אין מקור קדום יותר
32
May 08, 2011 at 07:22 PM kasamba Says:Report as Inappropriate
i am sure he would not have Assur ed Lipa Schmeltzer.
33
May 08, 2011 at 07:28 PM InformedConsent Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I like this Sefardic xenophobe who believes that everything is a result of some devious "vast right wing conspiracy" of the "Council of Elders of Ashkenaz (Zion)". Does this Amsalem believe the Ashkenazim use the blood of people of North African descent in their Matzo, too? ”
Due to bold cultural contrast, Sephardic Jews are treated with a certain disdain among those of Ashkenazic decent. It has some parallels with African American struggles (emphasis on some) here in the States. It is not a vast conspiracy, but rather a vast reality. Although I do not believe the discrimination is intentional, it does go largely unconsidered in many decisions of halachic and political consequence.
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May 08, 2011 at 07:33 PM berelw Says:Report as Inappropriate
im liking this guy. i agree we charadim in usa have real jobs we work hard, i just asked my ruv about ebay regarding shabbos, he was fluent in eCommerce and he doesnt have internet at home. he made his business to know since its peoples parnosa. thats a ruv...i agree what he said regaRDING daas hatorah.....real daas torah is a shulchan aruch...
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May 08, 2011 at 07:42 PM independent_mind Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Thanks, though you either didnt understnad my question or the chinuch. The chinuch is reffering to - first line- "issur and mutar, tamei and tahor, chayuv and patur and a tikun in daseinu" ie halacha. Yes in halacha we follow gedolim (except when you think they are mistaken in which case it is assur to follow, ayin all of maseches horiyos). My question is in non-halachaic matters.eg do I have to vote for candidate a becasue "daas torah" says to? Do I have to stay in pre-holocasut Europe becasue daas torah says so? (The second one is trickier, as that elevates daas torah to a 4th yehrog veal yavor, so you can ignore that if finding such a mekor is too hard, though it would be great if you could).
Back to my question where does this idea that gedolim have "daas torah" in non-halachic matters come from and where does it say they have to be followed?
Thank you for trying, dont give up I believe in you ”
ben bag bag omer: hafoch boh vehafoch boh deKULO bo, need more be said?!
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May 08, 2011 at 08:14 PM Chazer Fleish Says:Report as Inappropriate
Large community based organizations like to use the term "Daas Torah". i.e. Agudath Israel always backs up their political support for homos or others as coming from discussions with "Daas Torah". Think about this. Would REAL "Daas Torah" give up Torah Values for money?? I think not. Then when you ask the Agudah leader which "Daas Torah" he spoke to he usually answers "I'm not at liberty to say."
This Rav Amsalem is the true Godol of our generation. He sees what others can't seem to see. Hashem 'opened' his eyes to the Emes! I hope his movement does well and I wish him Hatzlocho Rabbo!
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May 08, 2011 at 08:29 PM trachtois Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Due to bold cultural contrast, Sephardic Jews are treated with a certain disdain among those of Ashkenazic decent. It has some parallels with African American struggles (emphasis on some) here in the States. It is not a vast conspiracy, but rather a vast reality. Although I do not believe the discrimination is intentional, it does go largely unconsidered in many decisions of halachic and political consequence. ”
If you have been following the news you would have seen that at one point he was in strong disagreement with the Daat Torah of the Sefardic community Chacham Ovadia shlita. He knows he's not a victim of Ashkenazic racism. He's just trying to portray all things evil as having their root in Ashkenaz and when his Sefardic brothers "victimize" and "abuse" him claiming his views are not in line with Daat Torah their just copying their evil Ashkenazic brothers.
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May 08, 2011 at 08:35 PM oldschoolorthodox Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ לא תסור מן הדבר אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאול, אפילו אם אומר לך על ימין שהוא שמאל לא תסוג ממנו - כך כתוב בתורה על פי דרשת חז"ל. אין מקור קדום יותר ”
a. That is one medrash on the pasuk others argue.
b. That isnt about hashkafa, my question is about following in hashkafa. There are plenty mekoros that rabanim should be followed in halacha.
c. even in halacha if you think the Rav is making a mistake it is ASSUR to follow. Al acha kama vekama in non-halacha.
I am looking for a mekor that in everyday matters eg who to vote for, that 1) Gedolim have better insight via daas torah and 2) That ehy must be followed.
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May 08, 2011 at 08:43 PM curious Says:Report as Inappropriate
He is unfortunately right about one-sided batei dinim. The ban on The Making of a Gadol came about through one-sided zhulekehs arguing infront of gedolei Torah.
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May 08, 2011 at 09:02 PM Lawyer Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ a. That is one medrash on the pasuk others argue.
b. That isnt about hashkafa, my question is about following in hashkafa. There are plenty mekoros that rabanim should be followed in halacha.
c. even in halacha if you think the Rav is making a mistake it is ASSUR to follow. Al acha kama vekama in non-halacha.
I am looking for a mekor that in everyday matters eg who to vote for, that 1) Gedolim have better insight via daas torah and 2) That ehy must be followed. ”
"man malkhi -- rabbanan"
Most of what is called "daas Torah" is a matter of leadership. When someone is the leader, you follow him, otherwise things are complete and utter hefker.
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May 08, 2011 at 09:14 PM InformedConsent Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If you have been following the news you would have seen that at one point he was in strong disagreement with the Daat Torah of the Sefardic community Chacham Ovadia shlita. He knows he's not a victim of Ashkenazic racism. He's just trying to portray all things evil as having their root in Ashkenaz and when his Sefardic brothers "victimize" and "abuse" him claiming his views are not in line with Daat Torah their just copying their evil Ashkenazic brothers. ”
If you had simply read my statement, instead of reading your subjectivity into it, you would see that it simply addresses the fact that you attached the xenophobic adjective to describe him. My comment stresses that a degree of racism exists and is largely unaddressed. I do not claim to know that Rabbi Amsalem is propagandist or a genuine champion of his beliefs.
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May 08, 2011 at 09:16 PM Pesach Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ ben bag bag omer: hafoch boh vehafoch boh deKULO bo, need more be said?! ”
Yes. More need be said. Look at the mephorshim. There are many ways of understanding that mishna. No one would learn to be a plumber by learning shas.
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May 08, 2011 at 09:24 PM charliehall Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ a. That is one medrash on the pasuk others argue.
b. That isnt about hashkafa, my question is about following in hashkafa. There are plenty mekoros that rabanim should be followed in halacha.
c. even in halacha if you think the Rav is making a mistake it is ASSUR to follow. Al acha kama vekama in non-halacha.
I am looking for a mekor that in everyday matters eg who to vote for, that 1) Gedolim have better insight via daas torah and 2) That ehy must be followed. ”
Point (c) is very important. If the gedol hador tells you that it is ok to eat at a restaurant and you know that it is serving pig meat, you ignore the gedol and don't eat there!
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May 08, 2011 at 09:36 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ ben bag bag omer: hafoch boh vehafoch boh deKULO bo, need more be said?! ”
Yes, more needs to be said since your quote from chazal has no relevance to this story.
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May 08, 2011 at 10:38 PM bored again Says:Report as Inappropriate
I haven't checked it up myself but i've seen quotes from tanya igerres hakodesh 22 where he completely destroys the idea of asking gedolim about mundane gashmius matters. probably worth seeing inside before commenting on it.
Although we cannot forget chazal we see in brachos 3b that klal yisroel did come to david to complain that they needed parnassa and we do find that he did give them advise. However they did not accept his first suggestion ;)
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May 08, 2011 at 11:10 PM bored again Says:Report as Inappropriate
As far as the ashkinazi conspiracy theory goes I have what to say. I am ashkinazi and my wife is sefardi so i think i can say something controversial. . I am a huge fan of the ben ish chai and kaf hachaim. their words along with the great ashkinazi poskim rank high for anyone who takes learning torah seriously. If you read what they write you will see that they bore no prejudice against quoting ashkinazi sources to decide halacha. Much the same as i can't remember a mishna berurah ever quoting a pri chadash for example and dismissing it by saying oh but he is sefardi so pay no attention to him.
This generation has received seffarim written and signed without remorse as dismissing completely anything said by members of coreligionists who are of different heritage and minhagim. And it is even more prevalent in seffardi tshuvos than ashkinazi ones. In fact there is one sifardi gadol in particular who i won't name who seems to be on a mission to destroy all the bridges built in previous generations by only quoting long forgotten purely seffardic sources and reffering to words of ashkinazi rabbis as only pertaining to ashkinazim.
These words are the easiest way to keep moshiach away.
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May 08, 2011 at 11:22 PM josephf Says:Report as Inappropriate
There is no reason to take Mr. Amsalem seriously. Rav Ovadoa Yosef already has condemned him.
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May 09, 2011 at 01:15 AM Rabbi_In_The_Know Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ a. That is one medrash on the pasuk others argue.
b. That isnt about hashkafa, my question is about following in hashkafa. There are plenty mekoros that rabanim should be followed in halacha.
c. even in halacha if you think the Rav is making a mistake it is ASSUR to follow. Al acha kama vekama in non-halacha.
I am looking for a mekor that in everyday matters eg who to vote for, that 1) Gedolim have better insight via daas torah and 2) That ehy must be followed. ”
בגמרא מסכת נדה, אבא שאול אמר שבאו לשאול לחכמים ולאביו על מכה מסויים מה היא, וחכמים שאלו לרופאים. לא הלכו לבד לשאול אצל רופאים, אלא שאלו לחוגים והם שקלו בדעתם שבמקרה הזאת עדיף להם להתייעץ ברופאים. אבל השואלים לא עלתה על דעתם אפילו ללכת לשאול לבד אצל רופא, אלא הלכו לחכמים על אף שהשאלה היתה רפואית
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May 09, 2011 at 07:01 AM Kanyeshna Says:Report as Inappropriate
He is correct, but allow me to ask one question:
Did the Rambam make money as a "scientist?"
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May 09, 2011 at 08:17 AM DavidMoshe Says:Report as Inappropriate
Wow! I am impressed. Good luck to him.
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May 09, 2011 at 08:17 AM David Moshe Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ He is correct, but allow me to ask one question:
Did the Rambam make money as a "scientist?" ”
I believe the Rambam earned his money as a physician.
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May 09, 2011 at 09:03 AM oiber-chacham Says:Report as Inappropriate
finally,after all these years a voice of sanity eminating from eretz yisroel
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May 09, 2011 at 09:58 AM Anominous Says:Report as Inappropriate
According to the article above he is creating a political party. This concerns me if his views can become biased by his political party or desire to get more votes/members...If you are running a political party, you should become biased to say things that will earn you votes...it is dangerous...That's why what we need is Melech Maschiach, who will not have bias on what he says!
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May 09, 2011 at 11:33 AM BinderDundat Says:Report as Inappropriate
The man is 100% on the money. Daas Torah does not judge what music I listen to, which hechsher I can or cant eat, etc. The men he refers too are control freaks.
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May 09, 2011 at 11:41 AM Shalom-Yall Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Here is one Mekor, from many, an excerpt from the ספר החינוך, in מצוה תצה:
ובכלל המצוה גם כן לשמוע ולעשות בכל זמן וזמן כמצות השופט, כלומר החכם הגדול אשר יהיה בינינו בזמננו, וכמו שדרשו זכרונם לברכה [ראש השנה כ"ה ע"ב] ואל השופט אשר יהיה בימים ההם, יפתח בדורו כשמואל בדורו, כלומר שמצוה עלינו לשמוע בקול יפתח בדורו כמו לשמואל בדורו.
ועובר על זה ואינו שומע לעצת הגדולים שבדור בחכמת התורה בכל אשר יורו מבטל עשה זה. וענשו גדול מאד שזהו העמוד החזק שהתורה נשענת בו, ידוע הדבר לכל מי שיש בו דעת.
Das Torah/ Emunas Chachomim have been part of Yiddishkeit from the very beginning- As you can see, listening to Das Torah is a מצוות עשה. ”
The above-quoted saying of Chazal has been quoted often by Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita, in his post-Sabbath Sermons. I have answered him (from my "Speaker's Corner" in Machaneh Yehudah) as follows (with some help from Rabbi Mordechai Elon, shlita): It's true that "Yiftach in his generation is like Shmuel in his generation." However, Yiftach certainly was not "Gadol HaDor" in Torah, or the most astute in Halachic matters (and he did not have an extremely pure pedigree!) What Yiftach and Shmuel both had in common was their outstanding leadership qualities. Yiftach became the leader of Israel when no one else had the intestinal fortitude (or "kishkas") to deal with King Nachash of Ammon. Rabbis who (like the 10 spies) do not have the courage to move the Jewish community forward, cannot be considered their true leaders, in spite of their Torah expertise and their geneology. In this sense, Rabbi Amsalem has the potential to be "Yiftach in his generation" and it would then be incumbant upon us all to follow him!
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May 09, 2011 at 01:10 PM AP Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I believe the Rambam earned his money as a physician. ”
That's a load of bologna. Everyone knows that the Rambam went to kollel in Lakewood or in one it's surrounding areas (because there is a machlokes whether he was ever accepted) and his father in-law supported him ( I think he was given about $200,000 a year inflation adjusted). Also who ever says the Rambam ever read a medical textbook is an apikores. All his medical knowledge came from his torah learning. And when the sultans asked him to perform a medical procedure he was an oines so he was able to do it through a Shaliach. If you disagree to what I'm saying you're an apikores and should be put in cherem.
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May 09, 2011 at 01:39 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Here is one Mekor, from many, an excerpt from the ספר החינוך, in מצוה תצה:
ובכלל המצוה גם כן לשמוע ולעשות בכל זמן וזמן כמצות השופט, כלומר החכם הגדול אשר יהיה בינינו בזמננו, וכמו שדרשו זכרונם לברכה [ראש השנה כ"ה ע"ב] ואל השופט אשר יהיה בימים ההם, יפתח בדורו כשמואל בדורו, כלומר שמצוה עלינו לשמוע בקול יפתח בדורו כמו לשמואל בדורו.
ועובר על זה ואינו שומע לעצת הגדולים שבדור בחכמת התורה בכל אשר יורו מבטל עשה זה. וענשו גדול מאד שזהו העמוד החזק שהתורה נשענת בו, ידוע הדבר לכל מי שיש בו דעת.
Das Torah/ Emunas Chachomim have been part of Yiddishkeit from the very beginning- As you can see, listening to Das Torah is a מצוות עשה. ”
I heard personally from one of the gedolei haposkim that the Sefer Hchinuch etc.
are referring only to halachic issues. There are times when it involves the rabim
then you must also listen to them not because of das torah but of takonas haeir.
However on personal matters you can expect an eitzah tova from them but you are
not obligated to accept their advice. (This question was answered in public.)
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May 09, 2011 at 02:11 PM Ingerisher Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Not true, only Ingerishe stated this meshugas. ”
If you will read the biography the Ingerisher Chasam Sofer you will find that the Ingerisher Chasam Sofer followed
the advice of the tivei hkehilla rather then him giving das torah advice to them
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May 09, 2011 at 02:59 PM FredE Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ There is no reason to take Mr. Amsalem seriously. Rav Ovadoa Yosef already has condemned him. ”
Absolutely. You wont have to think that way.
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May 09, 2011 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Thanks, though you either didnt understnad my question or the chinuch. The chinuch is reffering to - first line- "issur and mutar, tamei and tahor, chayuv and patur and a tikun in daseinu" ie halacha. Yes in halacha we follow gedolim (except when you think they are mistaken in which case it is assur to follow, ayin all of maseches horiyos). My question is in non-halachaic matters.eg do I have to vote for candidate a becasue "daas torah" says to? Do I have to stay in pre-holocasut Europe becasue daas torah says so? (The second one is trickier, as that elevates daas torah to a 4th yehrog veal yavor, so you can ignore that if finding such a mekor is too hard, though it would be great if you could).
Back to my question where does this idea that gedolim have "daas torah" in non-halachic matters come from and where does it say they have to be followed?
Thank you for trying, dont give up I believe in you ”
Voting very well can be a halachick issue, like is it mutter for me to vote for a politician who is pro toaivah marriage even in I will be financially better off.
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May 09, 2011 at 03:50 PM sechelyoshor Says:Report as Inappropriate
Some above quoted the chiyuv Mid'Oraisa to listen to the chachomim of our dor. they quoted the sefer hachinuch, a pasuk and a gemara. Some responded that this only applies to matters of halacha.
I heard that there is a place where the Maharatz Chayus says that the obligation to listen is only when we have a Sanhedrin. I was told that he writes that ever since the split between Ashkena and Sfard Jewery we haven't had one voice of our leadership so this is no longer the halacha.
So even if these psukim apply to hashkafa, according to the Maharatz Chayusit no longer applies.
Now here's the interesting thing. There's an encyclopedia of Gedolim called Altas Eitz Chaim where it states that the Maharatz Chayus is not 100% kosher. IOW he was a maskil. Did they call him that because he wrote the above about Daas Torah? Anyone know about where he writes this???
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May 09, 2011 at 04:47 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Some above quoted the chiyuv Mid'Oraisa to listen to the chachomim of our dor. they quoted the sefer hachinuch, a pasuk and a gemara. Some responded that this only applies to matters of halacha.
I heard that there is a place where the Maharatz Chayus says that the obligation to listen is only when we have a Sanhedrin. I was told that he writes that ever since the split between Ashkena and Sfard Jewery we haven't had one voice of our leadership so this is no longer the halacha.
So even if these psukim apply to hashkafa, according to the Maharatz Chayusit no longer applies.
Now here's the interesting thing. There's an encyclopedia of Gedolim called Altas Eitz Chaim where it states that the Maharatz Chayus is not 100% kosher. IOW he was a maskil. Did they call him that because he wrote the above about Daas Torah? Anyone know about where he writes this??? ”
The Chasam Sofer wrote to the Maharatz Ch.a few teshuvos and he adresses
him with great kavod ( the last teshuva in chelek orach chaim is to the Maharatz Ch)
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May 09, 2011 at 05:03 PM sechelyoshor Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The Chasam Sofer wrote to the Maharatz Ch.a few teshuvos and he adresses
him with great kavod ( the last teshuva in chelek orach chaim is to the Maharatz Ch) ”
interesting.... the plot thickens... :-)
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May 09, 2011 at 06:33 PM kollelfaker Says:Report as Inappropriate
finally some one with brains and knowledge
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May 09, 2011 at 07:08 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This guys is like the reform just in a up hat and long coat. This guy is a chulil hashem and yes should be but in charem. ”
why? because an illiterate like you says so? Your (bad) English just proves his point.
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May 09, 2011 at 07:16 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I heard personally from one of the gedolei haposkim that the Sefer Hchinuch etc.
are referring only to halachic issues. There are times when it involves the rabim
then you must also listen to them not because of das torah but of takonas haeir.
However on personal matters you can expect an eitzah tova from them but you are
not obligated to accept their advice. (This question was answered in public.) ”
so Anonymous heard from an unnamed gadol, and I should take this seriously?
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May 09, 2011 at 10:01 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ so Anonymous heard from an unnamed gadol, and I should take this seriously? ”
you can ask a rov and take his psak seriously